Ideas Have Consequences
Worldviews shape communities, influence politics, steer economics, set social norms, and ultimately affect the well-being of both your life and your nation. Obedience to the Great Commission involves replacing false ideas with biblical truth. Together with the help of friends, our mission is to demonstrate that only biblical truth leads to flourishing lives, families, societies, and nations. This show explores the intersection of faith and culture, aiming to address pressing societal issues through a biblical lens. Ideas Have Consequences is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance.
Ideas Have Consequences
We Can Put the Bible Back in Public Education | Nate Lundquist
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Episode Summary:
Is public education really neutral? I think we all know the answer to that question now.
Emmy and Dove Award-winning filmmaker Nate Lundquist, creator of the documentary Off School Property, joins us to challenge the myth of neutrality in public education and reveal a path to put the Bible back in front of public school students across America.
Every education system teaches a worldview. Students are being taught answers to life’s biggest questions about truth, meaning, morality, human identity, and freedom, whether we recognize it or not.
We explore how secularism has shaped American public schools, the difference between science and scientism, the Bible’s influence on Western civilization, and why a biblical worldview provides the foundation for human dignity, equality, freedom, and progress that our culture often takes for granted.
Then we turn to a fascinating movement happening in public education today that you need to know about: LifeWise Academy. Nate explains how released-time religious instruction allows students to receive Bible education during the public school day as long as it takes place off school property, is privately funded, and has parental permission.
Listen in and discover how you can help put biblical education back within reach of public school students across America.
Who is the Disciple Nations Alliance (DNA)? Since 1997, DNA’s mission has been to equip followers of Jesus around the globe with a biblical worldview, empowering them to build flourishing families, communities, and nations. 👉 https://disciplenations.org/
🎙️Featured Guest:
Nate Lundquist is an Emmy and Dove Award-winning filmmaker and visual effects artist, recognized for his powerful storytelling. With over a decade of experience, he has directed music videos, documentaries, and commercials, working with top artists in the industry. Nate joined LifeWise Academy in 2021, bringing his visionary expertise to the organization.
📌 Recommended Resources:
👉 The Film: Off School Property - Streaming on Angel - LifeWise Academy
👉 Website: During School Hours - Home - LifeWise Academy
💻 Follow Us:
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📽️YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/c/DiscipleNationsAlliance/
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📩 Ask us anything: info@disciplenations.org
Introduction
Nate LundquistEverybody has this perspective of public schools as this is a place where there's a neutral worldview. It's like, well, no, it all breaks down, right? Because you you you don't believe in nothing. You're gonna believe in something.
Scott AllenWell, you must have wrestled with that. Why did the church go along with this? We kind of were complicit in this shift in the culture, right? It wasn't just that they won the argument, but we were kind of complicit somehow.
Nate LundquistIt's all based on the single idea: this idea that science is rational, religious belief is irrational. If there's any one idea I'd love to topple and us to be done with for a long good long time, if not forever, it's that idea.
Luke AllenThe problem with freedom of religion and freedom of speech is there's only one religion that actually respects freedom.
Nate LundquistAnd the best character development comes from a biblical understanding and a biblical worldview. It's character transformation, it's not just character like development, you know.
Luke AllenHi friends, welcome back to another episode here on ideas have consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. As Christians, we all know that our mission is to spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. However, our mission, the Great Co-Mission, also involves working to transform our cultures so that they increasingly reflect the truth, goodness, and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected the second part of her mission, and today most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ's honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God. Hey guys, my name is Luke Allen. I am one of the hosts here on the show, and I'm joined today by my dad, Scott Allen. Hey Dad, how are you doing today? I'm so good, Luke. It's great to be with you as always. Yeah, this is uh always fun. We just hopped off a fun recording with a new guest here on the show to talk about a biblical worldview of education, essentially. We always like to circle back to this topic because it is so critical for all of us as Christians to be thinking about, be active in, and to be prepared to defend. Um so that's what we're gonna
Trailer And The Big Question
Luke Allenbe talking about today. We talked to the director of a new documentary. Uh his name's Nate Lunquist. The documentary is off school properties. I cannot believe that it took me as long as it did to hear about this. Uh, I think all Christians should watch this in America. I think we should all uh really just come up with practical ways to respond to it. Um, it's that powerful. So just want to play the trailer for you guys real quick before we hop into the interview with Nate.
SpeakerSchool, kids, Bible. Somehow during school hours, you can't do that. That's illegal.
Speaker 2Decades ago, the Bible was systematically removed from the public school today.
Speaker 6There's still constantly Bible reading and prayer recitation in the public schools. Yes, made a judgment.
Speaker 4When did they put the battle around in the public schools?
Speaker 2The most transformative book in all of human history, banned from the one place we educated 90% of the population. Bible's impact is hard to overestimate. Foundation of it. It is really nonsense, and it is destroying all the beautiful things the Bible has brought to the Christian civilization. Yeah, it's a problem. There's a way to bring that many colored movements. Others call it a loophole.
Luke AllenA loophole so big you could drive a bus through it. So again, powerful trailer. I hope you guys really enjoy this interview with Nate. So without further ado, let's hop into it.
Scott AllenWell,
Meet Nate And The Film
Scott Allenwe're thrilled today to have with us Nate Lundquist. Uh Nate is uh an Emmy and Dove award-winning filmmaker and a visual effects artist, uh, recognized for uh his powerful storytelling. And uh, we're gonna talk about a project that Nate has just uh completed and released, uh a documentary called Off School Property. We just watched this documentary as a team and uh excited to talk with you, Nate. Thanks for joining us and just being a part of the podcast.
Nate LundquistYeah, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
Scott AllenAnd Nate, you are also part of a ministry team called LifeWise Academy, and we'll talk a little bit more about that. LifeWise was behind the documentary. The documentary, again, is titled Off School Property. Is that correct? Yep. Good. So we'll want to help our listeners understand a little bit more about that ministry. But for now, I want to focus in on just again, congratulations. This is uh outstanding work, really excellent in terms of the quality. And you know, the message of this documentary is just right in line with what we teach at the DNA, too. So so excited to watch it and uh and to see you interview some of our closest friends, uh uh ministry partners like V Shal Mongolwadi and John Stone Street. I mean, just people that uh I know that the DNA's audience and the people that we work with love and respect. So I just want to start out by just encouraging all of our listeners to um to go and and watch this documentary, Off School Property. Let's talk about it though, Nate. Your
Why Neutrality Is A Myth
Scott Allenyour your entry point here, it seems to me, is public we're talking about public schools in the United States and how um public schools, public education, are not allowed to talk about God or the Bible. Um we have to educate students in a quote unquote neutral way that that can't put their foot on um in terms of influence on any religion, so to speak, and that's called neutrality. And and yet you're you're raising the important question, and this is really where it goes beyond, you know, just talking about schools, schools are an entry point, but can you really have a neutral public square? Uh can you really have the separation of church and state in the sense of the separation of God and the Bible from public life? Um that's really what I see is the the question that you're asking in this documentary. Is that fair?
Nate LundquistYeah, absolutely. Yeah, as I delved deeper into the topic, I mean, you know, this whole thing came about because I was part of this ministry that was bringing the Bible to public educ to public school students during school hours. And the the natural question is like, is that is that legal? How is that possible? What about the separation of church and state? All that stuff comes up. And as we started making this documentary to explain what this ministry is doing and how it's working, the more I got into, you know, with any any good documentary, it's uh you think you know what you're doing, and then you start interviewing people and you start going down the road and learning more and exposing more, and just yeah, that issue of neutrality kept coming up over and over and over again, and realizing that's kind of this the crux of it all. Like everybody has this perspective of public schools as yeah, this is a neutral, this is a place where there's a neutral worldview where all these other fringe ideas are just like auxiliary or something. And um, or like there's this idea that there's a worldview in the middle and there's all these other worldviews around it. And it's like, well, no, it all breaks down, right? Because you you you don't believe in nothing. You're gonna believe in something. And the public school public education represents a secular humanist worldview. They have a they have their own explanation as to why the world is the way it is. And that's something that's mandatory. You have to be there. I mean, you could I there's you know, for the last 30 years, public school students have opted out of classes they're teaching evolution and things like that, but you know, they sit in the hallway or whatever, have a study hall instead. And but yeah, that's um the the idea that that there's they teach no worldview is just not a real worldview. And if you don't address that, then you're not able to actually have the real conversation, to your point.
Scott AllenYeah, I think I think um Christian Oberman, who's a friend of our ministry, and he's a an educator, has spent all of his life and in education and biblical worldview, he put it this way to me a few years ago, and it just really helped me a lot. He said that if you're a a student in a public school in the United States and you go through 12 years of public education, which I did, um, and you did as well, Nate, uh, from the documentary, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, he says the worldview that you learn isn't so much secular atheism as it is deism. And this worldview of deism is this worldview that says God exists, but he only kind of created things, set them in motion, and then he has nothing to do with it after it's up and running. He's completely irrelevant, removed, not connected. And he said that's essentially the way public schools teach the subjects. They don't make any reference to God. Um it's so you can you can continue to believe that God got it all started at the beginning, or that you can have a personal salvific relationship with God. But what you're learning is that God has nothing at all to do with things like history or science or math or any other biology, any other subject. God has nothing to do with that because it's not talked about, it can't be talked about. So you end up after 12 years of that, essentially, with a deistic worldview. I thought that's just a really good way of saying it. And I think something similar to what you're saying here, right? There is no neutrality. You're gonna be learning some worldview, right?
Nate LundquistRight, absolutely. I I mean I I feel like my public education went even beyond that, to where it just felt kind of stupid to believe in the supernatural at all. Like that's kind of the impression I got personally. Uh, I just felt like it's a lesser-than way of thinking or it's not rational.
Nate’s Story From Ohio To Israel
Scott AllenUm, tell us more about your background. Yeah, do you mind just yeah, tell us a little bit your story, where you grew up, where you went to school, and then uh, you know, how you started thinking about these things for the first time, maybe that you hadn't, you just took for granted.
Nate LundquistYeah, sure. Yeah, I grew up uh kind of bounced around. I mean, I I was born in Florida, raised in the state of Washington for part of my upbringing. So I was bouncing around the schools there and then moved to Ohio. Well, my family and I moved so much when I was young that the FBI thought we were like fleeing uh because of some crime or something. But we um we uh I ended up in Ohio, central Ohio, for middle school, like the latter, latter half of elementary and middle school and high school. So that's basically where I spent most of my years. Um and I grew up in a home that I was the champion of the Bible, Bible-believing home, um biblical worldview. And yeah, as I got into later years into high school, particularly. Um I don't know. I just didn't really know I didn't really know what to do with all of it. Um, it didn't seem very thorough, I guess you could say, in terms of like, where's this all coming from? This feels a little random. Um but I I was really deep in the arts um and that's where I thrived. So I kind of just lived in that space. But it was really after school, after high school, that I started at the time I had the extremely fortunate opportunity to live in Israel and work on documentary films in Israel. How long did you live in Israel, Nate? I was on on and off for three years. That I was like bouncing back and forth a little bit. Uh live in Jerusalem. We were interviewing scholars of every kind. Uh, I mean became really good friends with some of the guys you'll like see interviewed on National Geographic and stuff. They were just we just kind of it's beyond, it was just like we we became part of life there in archaeology and linguistics and stuff, and that was kind of the crowd we started to run with. So it was a really, really special experience. And it was then that I was starting to, but but the interesting factor is like I kept running into a lot of these scholars who are they're digging in the land of the Bible, excavating biblical sites, but they aren't really referencing the biblical text that authoritatively. It's kind of, yeah, it's there, but um, it's not like their total guide. Very few Christians doing biblical archaeology, ironically. And I and I was just starting to feel like what's you know, it was a point in which I was kind of evaluating everything, you know, as the as like a I don't know if you can use this word, um, but like a healthy deconstruction where you're kind of like taking everything apart, laying it on the table for for the purpose of making sure it all makes sense and putting it together properly, not because of any animus or anything like that. And it was that time I started to read like Dr. William Lane Craig, um, I started to read deeper to some of C. S. Lewis' stuff. Um, and just had that mixed with my experience of tracking the Holy Land and talking to these people, really deep-seated my belief that there's no more probable uh explanation of the world and everything I see here in Israel that um outside of a biblical worldview in the Bible. And then um that's when I started to really wonder like, why in the world I say this in the movie, why in the world didn't I hear anything about any of this during school? Yes, you know. Um it just felt like a giant gap. Um like we were talking all the way around the main thing and never talked about the main thing ever.
Scott AllenAnd that's that's the pain point. That's the burning question that was behind this documentary, isn't it? I mean, that's that's what was the fire behind it was why? Why didn't I understand that the Bible is this important as you were learning when you were in Israel and beginning to study people like William Lynn Craig and C.S. Lewis, and you began to see the influence that we take for granted. Uh I th there was a great interview with the um the curator at the Bible Museum in Washington, D.C., where he started kind of elicitating what those things are that we take for granted in the West. You know, the fact that there's a beginning and an end, and there's order, and there's you know, you can't have science without order, and there's uh the value of human uh human beings where you get, you know, things like modern medicine and you know, so much that we take for granted. You were seeing that for the first time, and then it caused you to have that question why didn't I learn about any of this?
Speaker 3Yes.
Scott AllenYes. I really got to do that.
Nate LundquistYeah, it's just this it suddenly it was just this glaring gap in my 12 years of education. Um, and then that that that brings that begs all kinds of questions, you know, about why why is this untouchable content and all that? Yeah.
Luke AllenYeah. I mean, that's very perceptive of you. I don't know if I really was thinking that deep when I was in K through 12. But it is very true that uh, I mean, every human, we're born with these questions that we all just need to answer throughout our lives, you know, where did we come from? Where did this world come from? What's wrong with this world? Why is it why is it so broken? You know, how do we fix it? Where do we go after this? These are that we call those the big four worldview questions, but you know, in most schools they don't address those, but those are really what we want to know. You know, so if we're gonna talk about learning and education, like that's a great place to start. Now a lot of schools will try to answer those today. Um, you know, if your schools in like you said in the documentary, there's no such thing as a neutral education. So your school is gonna answer those questions. It's just a lot of the answers they give today in the US. For example, where did we come from? Nothing. That's not really a satisfying answer for most people. Yeah. That raises more questions than answers. So it's like, okay, you gave my answer you gave an answer, but man, that's not a good one. Yeah, I think even little kids are like just leave these kids scratching their heads. That doesn't make sense. Yeah, I know. Yeah, any seven-year-old can tell you that when they're looking at a horse. Like, that came from nothing. Sure about that. Right, exactly. No, that that's I don't know about that one.
How The Bible Left Schools
Scott AllenThat's and then Nate, you went back and you looked at the timeline too of education in the United States and you discovered that it wasn't always this way. This idea of kind of this separation of church and state, this neutral public square where we can't talk about God. You can you can have your faith in your closet, your prayer closet, or in church, but do not bring it out into the public sphere. That's a secular sphere, that's a neutral sphere, et cetera, et cetera. You began to realize, oh, that it wasn't always that way. There was a time uh earlier on when the Bible was explicitly central to everything. And then you got to that point in that story, that history where you saw it change, you sh saw it shift. Tell us a little bit about that, that historical kind of understanding that you got. Yeah.
Nate LundquistYeah, it's it's fascinating because uh in the early well, in the in the 1600s, when it's like education, the driving motivation for education was literacy so that people could read the Bible. So it wasn't even just a primary component, it was like the actual motivator.
Speaker 3Yes.
Nate LundquistUm, and and there's all kinds of um old like textbooks and documents that you know reinforce that you can find. But yeah, as it seems like as just as um time went on and the culture shifted, right? It became more um with the rise of science and secularism, um, as culture shifted, it it just basically took ownership of the public school day and instilled the cultural value of religious belief as irrational, so to speak, um, into the whole idea of education as well. So eventually you get to the point in 1963 when um the Bible and prayer are banned from public education. And it's all based right on, it's all based on a single idea, this idea that science is rational, religious belief is irrational. I think that idea, if there's any one idea I'd love to topple and us to be done with for a while for a long time, if not forever, it's that idea. Um, that idea just uh so much has come out of that. And I think that's where we have the all kinds of cultural shifts, like like yeah, like what happened in 1963. And um yeah.
Scott AllenYou you uh you'd love to talk more about that. That uh the the word that I use to describe that are many, it's not just me, but it's the word scientism. It's it's this idea that science can tell us not just about which it can, about the physical world, the world of atoms and molecules and biology and physical matter, the creation, but it can tell us the truth about everything, right? All of all of reality. It it was a massive overstep that that happened. And um, you know, and pretty much everyone went along with that. It essentially di displaced uh theology or other, you know, uh realms uh that said, hey, no, we have something to say about reality. Um they said, no, you don't have anything to say. That's now we're going to label that uh irrational fantasy. You're free to believe it if you want, you know, but don't bring it into the public square. The public square has to be dominated by quote unquote science and and human reason and things like that. This is the world we still live in. I mean, this is the dominant belief system today.
The 1963 Turning Point
Scott AllenYou um quote Madeline Murray O'Hare, the famous atheist, I think you feature her in the documentary, and I thought that was a really pretty powerful point there and getting at this turning point. You want to talk a little bit about that? Yeah, I mean, she's the one. I've never seen her actually. I thought it was just fun listening to her on the tonight show or whatever you had her on there.
Speaker 2So yeah, yeah, yeah, with Johnny Carson. Yeah, she really was like the figurehead of like that, like the birth of the I don't know if you call it the new atheism, like that that you know, people like Hitchens and Dawkins then carried on those that torch a little later on. But yeah, in the 1960s, yeah, she was like the first one, it seems like, to really come out swinging in a very popular and public way against um r religious belief as like foolish and fairy tales and why waste your time and all of that stuff. Um and she, yeah, she carried uh she carried some weight um and some sway. And ironically, like so, yeah, she's the one who really got that court case tipped at the Supreme Court level in 1963 to ban the Bible and prayer in public schools. And she set a whole new, she kind of I wonder if there was just kind of this bubbling uh or like a group of people who were looking for a leader that she gave voice to, you know, at that time. And that that group of people has grown and grown and grown and kind of is that whole movement's starting to fizzle now. Um but she what's really interesting is a s as an aside, I it's not in the movie, but her son was the one who testified in 1963 at that at that Supreme Court ruling that really that her his testimony was the thing that pushed that over the edge. And he has since become a Christian and is really huge, huge in uh advocating for in Washington for uh biblical worldview and protecting it and has yeah, pronounced Oh yeah, it's crazy. I really wanted to get him in the movie. I I reached out to him, I didn't hear anything. Um I'm like Luke, we gotta get.
Luke AllenIt just it encapsulates exactly what we're trying to do, except in the opposite direction. And I I I have it right here, I would love to read it. Again, Madeline Marie O'Hare quote, we say to the theists, all right, if you want to believe in God, that's your business. If you want to pray, that's your business. You take your marbles and go over there in the corner of your private life and play your game. But that's not relevant to the living community now. It talking about theism here, has nothing to do with me, it has nothing to do with government, it has nothing to do with politics. It actually hasn't got anything to do with business, it has nothing to do with science, it has nothing to do with education. So therefore, do your thing, but leave our community free. We want to be free from religion. We take seriously the separation of church and state. And that statement is just the perfect encapsulation of everything that we're trying to do the opposite of, because the Bible absolutely has everything to do with every one of those areas that she talks about here. It sounds like a pastor there, like she's preaching to us. And then what's crazy is a lot of Christians went along with that. They say, okay, I guess the Bible doesn't have anything to do with business, nothing to do with politics, nothing to do with government. And that it's a good thing.
Scott AllenAnd we're happy to go to our ministry in church and talk about personal salvation. Yeah. Well said, Luke.
When The Church Backed Down
Scott AllenWhy why Nate? You must have wrestled with that. Why did the church go along with this? I mean, again, speaking broadly or generally, because do you agree that in general that we kind of were complicit in this shift in the culture? Yeah, right. It wasn't just that they won the argument, but we were kind of complicit somehow.
Speaker 2Yeah, no, I completely agree. And there's probably a lot of reasons for it, but um I I I think that where do I even start? I ran into this a lot in Israel where it seemed like there were a lot of people I ran into who would believe certain things that were a little, how should I say, like sensational because it sounds like they really uh it sounds really catchy or interesting. And then somebody who's thought about it for a little while comes along and says, Well, actually that's not true. And then their whole faith is in question when it's like if you had just actually known about the real solid evidence, um, I think that people have started to like this, yeah. I don't I don't know. It's like it's like they took this challenge and just said, Oh, well, you don't need evidence for your faith. It's all just about like having faith. And then, and then that just completely undermines all any power that you have looking at the world around you or in any area of study or anything, and that kind of got rejected as like a a resource or something. It's it's uh I hate to be too disparaging, but it does just seem like Christians were not prepared for that um challenge uh uh broadly. You certainly had a subset that were engaged in and like did their homework. Um, but it it seemed like we culturally were not in a very strong place intellectually to to take that on. And then and then yeah, just defaulted to that, oh, it's you don't really need evidence, you just need faith thing, and then that's and even then you're really standing on some weak ground. Um and I I feel like we're starting to come out of that um now, primarily because we have tried a lot of other things and have said and have seen how well they worked out, and are like, well, maybe there is something to all this, and that's really where my my documentary um comes into play in a lot of ways. Like, I wanted it to both be encouraging to believers, like, hey, this is but I also want it to be really challenging. I want I want people to realize like there's you're standing on a way stronger ground than you may realize. Like, for those of you who have never heard this stuff, I want it to be as accessible as possible to to give people uh a solid ground. I when I was in Israel, that was like the biggest burden on me is just seeing all the evidence for myself. And then, you know, you had there's like this guy named Ron Wyatt. I don't know if you're familiar with him, but he back in the 70s or 80s, maybe it was, he came out with all these old like movies that he made from Israel that were like, oh, we found chariot wheels in the bottom of the Red Sea, but and everyone's like, oh my gosh, they're there. And then someone comes along and is like, actually, those are just the like metal valves from like submarines and ships and things. And then, and so everyone feels like, oh, then they feel demoralized spiritually because they thought they had evidence, but they don't. And it's like, well, no, there's just look, Israel is even like Israel itself is like just screaming evidence. There's screaming evidence everywhere. You don't need to like get hung up on a little uh kind of a shtick, you know, like this other guy was like just so I just think buying into some of that sensationalism that's real easy to get excited about can can kind of pull the rug out from underneath people. And I really have a huge heart to find a way to uh simply and accessibly help believers see the evidence that really is substantial and in great abundance. It's not as flashy on the surface, but it's uh weighty and real, you know, and so that's yeah, no, said a lot there, but no, no, you you did a phenomenal
The Bible Built The West
Speaker 2job.
Scott AllenAnd I think uh you started the documentary with a quote that I uh when I saw it, I was I had never heard of it. I was stunned by it, and I immediately wrote it down. It's a quote from H. G. Wells, who um the you know is famous, you know, for the war of the worlds. He is not a Christian, he's an atheist, I think, wasn't he? I mean, he's lived a hundred years ago, I believe. But uh uh so here's what you started the documentary off with this quote from H. G. Wells. He says, the Bible has been the book that held together the fabric of the West. Western civilization that we possess could not come into existence and could not have been sustained without it. Uh just a super powerful quote. Completely agree with H. G. Wells there.
Speaker 2And the way you the way you visually I was surprised myself when I came across that.
Scott AllenThe way you visually portrayed this, I thought was really powerful. You portrayed it as a Jenga tower, you know, with all of these different pieces, and the pieces were kind of biblical principles that we take for granted, these truths, these things that come from the Bible, but we just again take them for granted. The dignity of every human being, the equality of every human being, uh a beginning and end, order, you name it. There's a whole bunch of these blocks, and they all fit together and they built a civilization. But then you got to that point in the documentary where you said we pulled the wrong, you know, the wrong block out. That was you know, that was this idea that Madeline Murray O'Hara was espousing that religion is personal, it's private belief, has no place in the public square, has no place in public schools. And when that block got pulled out, you again it was visually very well done, very powerful. The whole thing comes down, right? You know, tower falls down. And that is kind of where we're at today, right? And people are noticing that. Like this thing is falling apart here.
Speaker 2Yeah. Yeah, that was. I mean, I knew it's one of those things that I knew going into the movie. I knew that the Bible was a big deal. I knew that biblical worldview was foundational to understanding of just again, I believed it was the most probable explanation of the evidence. Um but uh upon like going into the movie and getting to talk to really smart people like at like Jeff at the Museum of the Bible and Michal and all those others. I just and and even living in Israel and talking to scholars there many years ago, like still during the making, like while I'm interviewing people for this movie, I'm my mind is being absolutely blown by just how far down the layers go, how how deep that Jenga piece is buried at the base of that tower. You know, it is like the very like core.
Scott AllenUm and it just sits there, right? Nobody hardly pays it an attention, but boy, it's holding everything else up, you know.
Speaker 2Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you mentioned it earlier, just like our perspective of time as being linear, but there being a beginning and an end. Yes. I still think about that. That that rocked me when I first heard it because I realized, wow, if you don't, if you yeah, that's just a like there's so many things that are just a given that you think, you know, you think there's a lot of there's a lot of ideas that we all have different opinions on, and there's like another layer of ideas that we think are just a given, and it's like, well, actually there's a it goes way deeper down, and there's even more fundamental layers that we uh I never never even thought about, like the fact that not everyone thinks about time with the same model. Some people have a circular perspective of it. But yeah, but that the linear version of time that's what it allows for so much future thinking and the idea of progress. The whole idea of progress.
Scott AllenYou if you think in a circular way, as civilizations and nations have done from time immemorial, Hinduism, time is on a wheel, there is no place for progress in that. You know, it all just goes around and around and around again. And it kind of leads to a sense of futility. You know, there is no hope for making the world a better place. It's just gonna get worse again, and then it'll come back again and get worse again. So, yeah, you're right. It's not it's and it's not just that, well, that's kind of an interesting idea that there's a beginning and an end, but what difference does that really make? It makes a huge difference, actually.
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean, I don't know if it's a stretch to say that like our like the West being like a birthplace of all the innovation that's come out of like like just yeah, I just think about my my phone. Like, is my phone can it ultimately accredit that kind of thinking? Because thinking about the future, thinking about progress, thinking about innovation, thinking about you know ways to advance and and refine and all that stuff. And I mean, at the beginning of all that stuff are these like very, very, very, very core ideas. Um that have these just dramatic outplaying over time and at scale.
Scott AllenAnd they built a civilization. Tim, I want to bring you in. I know you've been sitting there listening and thinking about this conversation. What what questions do you have, or what are your thoughts right now?
Speaker 6Uh I'm I'm really enjoying the conversation and uh really enjoyed the documentary. Um uh yeah, it, you know, this is this is such a major issue. I think of my own self. I, you know, went all through um public school, and my mom was a believer, but kind of as you were talking, you know, I thought about myself in the sense of I my faith existed as this separate spiritual reality and the idea of thinking about the Bible as a worldview, um, as principles that formed every area of life. Um it's still something that uh I work in this ministry, and that's what we and I still you know look for ways, I'm still growing in learning how to do it and how to do it well with my own family and children. Um so uh yeah, it's it's uh it's a real loss for um you know 92% of Americans who go through public school who are, you know, they they uh learn in these compartmentalized ways that are just completely dispassionate. You know, there's no drive. Um, I mean, one of the things that we love to talk about in this ministry is just, you know, we have a creator who creates with beauty and purpose and intention, and we are made in the image of God. And you know, as as you talk about in the documentary, you know, this is this idea that we're made in the image of God, it's uh you know, it is not self-evident. This is this is a sacred teaching from the scriptures.
Scott AllenYeah. Yeah. Bichal makes that point in the documentary that uh this is not self-evident if you look at civilizations through history. You know, uh you do you don't come uh come up with this idea that human beings have inherent dignity that needs to be respected and there's an inherent equality. That's not the the way of the fallen world.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Scott AllenYeah, a lot of ramifications from that too. Absolutely. Just tons. Just that one alone is is is just it, yeah, you can go on and on and
Pluralism And Rebuilding A Culture
Scott Allenon. I think the question that emerges, and I would love to hear your thoughts on this, Nate, is okay, we you've made this powerful case that there is no neutrality. They they being Madeline Murray O'Hara and the atheists that came after her, they kind of won the argument. They said, we're not arguing arguing for any particular worldview or religion. We're arguing for uh this kind of neutral secular space um that needs to govern public life and public education, let's say. Um and um and they they they won with that argument, and so pretty much everyone today buys into that at some level, including Christians. Yep, okay, public the public realm needs to be governed by this kind of secular neutrality. And I think your documentary really says that's false. That's false. There is no such thing as a secular, neutral public space. It's always going to be this worldview or that worldview that's going to shape things. It's going to shape curriculum. Again, back to Christian Overman. He said, if you eliminate talk about God or the Bible completely from public schools, what you're teaching is deism. You're teaching a worldview that says God has nothing at all to say about those subjects, which is false. If he created everything or has something to say about those things, he created them, you're teaching another worldview. There is no neutrality. So but the question then arises in this very pluralistic society that we live in today, right, where people do have very different worldviews, so all the way from Marxism to Islam to kind of uh postmodern worship of the self. I did I determine what is real and true to Christianity.
Speaker 4Sure.
Scott AllenHow do you how do you move off of uh you know what how do you I guess can you root the civilization back in the Bible again, the way that it used to be? What are what are your thoughts on that? And I know you're we're gonna I want to get into your ministry too, uh likewise, because you're doing things actually to to make that happen, so I don't want to neglect that. But but just your thoughts on that, Nate. How do we move from having lost this argument, this idea that there is some kind of neutral sec secular public square back to and and now the fruit of that is the Jenga towers falling down because Yeah to trying to rebuild it. Can we can it be rebuilt? What are your thoughts?
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean that that's a perfect segue into Lifewise Academy, but I think that I think that it can be and particularly I think that we're at a uh primed place to do it, because like I was saying, we've tried a lot of things. We really I've been impressed, to be honest, as to how far we've taken the logic of science as the end-all be-all. Um and I think that we've we've taken it to some pretty extreme extents um to test it out and and relativism and you know, all of that. We really, we've really given them a solid college try. And uh I think that um I think that society like American culture as a whole has is at this point seems to be rejecting a lot of it. Like, yeah, we don't like the results of all of this. I'm tired of having no meaning. Well, I'm tired of not knowing anything about anything because it's all just translucent because everything's relative. So you're gonna say I didn't want to cut you off the other side.
Scott AllenI just wanted to add one thought because, you know, right, the part of the lie is that, you know, the again, the the new atheists or the atheist, the Madeline Murray O'Hares and their prodigy is that we have science on our side. You believe in fairy tales. Um you know, they've sold that, and people have believed that broadly. You know, we we are scientists, we are people of reason and science. Um the lie, again, is that you wouldn't have anything like science without these fundamental building blocks that we were talking about earlier, these things that uh there is a there is an order to the universe. We can think rationally and reasonably because we're made in image, in the image of a God who created things. You have to have a biblical worldview, in other words, even to have modern science. And so science is the fruit, actually, modern science is the fruit of a biblical worldview. It didn't come out of uh an ancient Roman or an ancient Buddhist or any other worldview, Greek, it came out of a uniquely biblical worldview in the West, modern science did. So we have nothing to be ashamed of. We're not anti-science, anti-reason. What we are is anti-scientism, this idea that science alone tells us everything and we don't need God. No, that's false. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So I just had to because I still think people are still confused by that. Yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's the you know, it's all that nuance that doesn't wear well on the masses. You know, that's I think where it gets lost. It's just like, um, and that's where but those nuances are so important, and that's why I think your ministry's uh doing phenomenal work. Um yeah, I appreciate that distinction. And I and I I was clear to say that science as the end all be all, right? Like it's obviously I I think science is phenomenal. Right. And to your exact point, it's it's the science can only even exist because we believe in a God who created the world who set it in motion, um, and there's like patterns and consistencies, and you can even experiment and like study the world around you because of the way God created things with order. 100%. Yeah, that's that's a very good clarifying point.
Scott AllenUm But you were you were you were at the point where saying we're the conditions in the culture are now ripe for us to kind of recover the Bible in a way that we've lost it. So yeah, can I I didn't mean to cut you off continue that thought.
Speaker 2Oh, you're good, you're good. No, um it's uh yeah, it's I think people are hungry for it. And you know, when we look at the the the issue that we set up with the movie is here we have the most transformative book in all of human history and it's banned from the one place where we educate 90% of our population. And that that is the opportunity. Like if you're if 90% of your population is going through what I call in the movie these future-making factories, the public school system. Yeah, the public school system is is is educating our future into existence. 90% of our population is there. Um, I mean, for everybody who wants to homeschool in Can, that's awesome. I homeschool myself, um, and I'm very thankful that we can. Um, or if you can have other options, that's awesome. But again, 90% of our population is going through the public school system. So that's that's the that's the big factor.
The LifeWise Legal Loophole
Speaker 2And so that all tees up this Ministry of LifeWise Academy. That, you know, a good friend of mine is the founder and CEO. He's been an evangelist for a long time, and he would go and speak at public schools, and eventually a handful of years ago discover that there's this in his hometown, there was this program that was um uh that was had had 95% of the public schools' kids enrolled in it, and they would leave school during the school day and they would uh learn about the Bible and then they would go back to school. And he was like, How in the world is this possible? How is this not illegal? And found out that there's this old nine uh Supreme Court ruling from 1952 that's been around for 70 years. It says you can teach religious instruction to public school students. You actually can do it. It's just that it has to be done off school property, uh, has to be done, um, has to be privately funded, and the students have to have permission from their parents. As long as you do those three things, you can totally still teach religious education to public school students during school hours. Uh and so when he discovered that, he's like, okay, then why in the world is why in the world am I just now hearing about this? And I don't know anyone who's ever heard of it. And why isn't this happening everywhere? And as he did further research into it, he realized it's just it's just really hard. Like there's a lot of barriers to entry. You have to find a facility, you have to figure out staffing and marketing and insurance and uh enrollment and school relations and fundraising and just like all kinds of things you got to do. It's essentially like setting up a private school. And so then he had the thought what if this could be. Put into a box? What if we could franchise this idea? So the branding, the curriculum, all the policies and procedures and uh processes and all that was already laid out for you. And there's coaching and there's it's all built out to facilitate this idea so that anyone in any community across America can just plug in to this uh process and they can begin teaching the Bible to their public school students in their community. And that was what caused the birth of this ministry called Lifewise Academy. And it's all based on, again, it's based on the Supreme Court ruling in this practice called released time religious instruction. That's the legal term. Um, and so it's utilizing that practice at scale. And, you know, back in 2019 when this idea was started and they had one little program and they thought, okay, this is cool. Let's try to serve, and they're just like kind of, you know, threw an idea out, like, let's try to serve 25 schools by the year 2025. That would be it's catchy, you know, it could um be a good goal. And here we are in 2026 now, and we are serving a thousand schools in like confirmed in 37 states, um, and over 60,000 students are enrolled nationwide here in the gospel every week. Um, so it's it it just as people started to hear about this possibility and opportunity, it just has spread like wildfire. And so I've been a part of that organization for about five years now, uh, just helping lead the creative team and bring awareness. And that's where the movie came out of that that effort. And that's great. It's been a wild ride.
Scott AllenHow do people find out more about that if they want to take advantage of the resources in the ministry of LifeWise Nate? Where do they go? What's the website?
Speaker 2Lifewise.org.
Scott AllenLifeWise.org, yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, go to lifewise.org and click on the button that says find your school. And then you can search and find by district or zip code or whatever, school name, even, and you can find your school and you can see if there's already a LifeWise at your school, and if there's not, you can be a part of helping get one started.
Scott AllenWell, good for you. And I think as I was talking to Luke earlier before the podcast, one of the things I appreciate about Life LifeWise is that um I think there is a real strong effort on the part of a lot of Christians, myself included. We're in the homeschool community. I homeschooled Luke and the rest of my my five kids. Um and there's a there's a real effort to kind of reclaim this area of education and say, hey, we need to put the Bible and God right back at the very center of it and even bring it into the home. Um there's great movements in Christian schooling and education as well. But you're right that we're still not touching the what did you what did you say? It's 90 some percent. 90 percent. 90 percent.
Speaker 250 million public school students.
Scott AllenAnd and and that's where I want to really thank you and appreciate what you're doing is by going after that and saying this is where we need to to really focus. We can't neglect this. Um, this yeah, so yeah.
Freedom Only Works One Way
Scott AllenThat being said, let me ask you, you know, one of the challenges that I've I've I personally am wrestling with this a lot, just in my own thinking, that it's Christianity. We're talking about Christianity, the Bible, the basic building blocks of our worldview. And one of those, and I think it was Elisa Childers in the documentary who said this very well. She said that Christianity gives a place to disagree, you know, that you know, we don't force our faith on people, but you know, you can argue against it and you can even um you can even fight me over it, and I have a command to love my enemy, you know. So what Christianity does is it creates the possibility in a culture for a tolerance, pluralism with people that we disagree with. That that very idea is a Christian idea, right? Yeah, and yet, like I was just hearing last week in Texas now, there's a big school choice movement in Texas, like we had in Arizona when I lived there, which is good. I mean, I think great, put parents back in control of the education of their children, give them the power and take it away from the state. But in Texas, it's the Muslims who are moving in and doing that big time. And they're doing programs kind of like yours. They're using public schools, but to teach uh they're you know, they're teaching the core doctrines of Islam. And Islam doesn't have that pluralism in it, it doesn't have that bait, right? As soon as that becomes the basis of a culture, there is no toleration, right? There is no religious freedom, you know, it's all and and secularism, frankly, is the same. There's in there's no worldview that has that except Christianity. So I'm I'm personally wrestling with this. I bet you are too, Nate. What are your thoughts about this, you know?
Speaker 2Um Yeah. Well, I think it's a matter of of education. I mean, uh like because I don't know that people realize that, just generally speaking. Like, I don't know if they've ever thought about that. You know, the the fact that we have freedom to disagree comes from a biblical, it comes from any worldview. Like, I I think a lot of people just don't even think of well. There was a point which I was gonna go out when I was making the movie and just interview people on the street about their worldview, and I started to do that. It never really made it into the film. But um, I had inter, I mean, I'm every single person I interviewed when I said, What is your worldview? said, What's a worldview? Right, right, right. You know, so they don't even know that there is such a thing of this like this framework from which they're seeing everything and making all their decisions. Um, but oh man, where was I going with that? Um But I I think that um Yeah, we were just Yeah, like the they don't it it you know, I think it what's interesting to me is in the movie I I show a clip from Richard Dawkins, and he's him, he's the one saying, like, um, if if uh that he's you know, he's got all this horrible stuff to say against Christianity, but he's like, I I really like living in a Christian world though. And if we were to replace it with anything else, that would be what's the word he used? Uh he he would it was a really dramatic statement he had. Yeah, he he said it in a very dramatic fashion, but yeah, I mean, even he's pinpointing on like, yeah, this is creating a uh a civilization that is uh can co where people can coexist. This is this is the thing that's doing that. It's not just some natural function of humanity, right? It's a it's a worldview that's powering that ideology. Um, you know, and like to you to yeah, Lisa Childress said it when she said, you know, the specifically honing in on when Jesus says, Bless those who curse you, pray for those who persecute you.
Speaker 3Right.
Speaker 2And I love the way she says it creates even the ground. Yeah. She says it creates even the ground from which atheism can grow from.
Scott AllenYes, I love that. Yeah, the very place that atheism can grow and take over the culture like Christianity. There's an irony to that. And uh and I'm I'm wrestling with it too, because like you are trying to do, let's bring let's bring the Bible back into the public schools. Well, we're not the only ones who are going to do that, right? You know, again, Muslims are doing that in spades right now. Um, they've got a real positive program to do that. That's how they spread their religion. The challenge is that only one of these, if it become, if it becomes dominant in a culture, has the room for pluralism. The uh, you know, it it's the the other ones are going to force it on you eventually at some point. And and I put atheism in that same camp because we've seen it anywhere like that atheism has become dominant, mainly in the communist countries of the West, uh, there is no religious freedom. You're put in prison or killed, you know. So you've got to tow the party line.
Luke AllenYeah, the problem with freedom of religion and freedom of speech is there's only one religion that actually respects freedom. Well said. You know, it's it's it's Madeline Mary-O'Hare's quote again. She says, Therefore do your thing, but leave our communities free. You know, yeah, go play in the corner. We want to be free from religion. That statement has two big issues in it. One is what is freedom? That's a uniquely Christian word, and one that only Christians actually respect out of any of the major worldviews of the world. Two is keep our what does she say? We want to be free from religion. You can't do that because everyone's religious. We are by default religious. Every human doctrine atheist is religious. We all have belief systems that we order our lives by, we all have ideologies, worldviews, and religions, and we therefore, by default, will enforce those and influence those around us with those belief systems if we truly believe them. So, I mean, that's what who was it? John Pope John Paul II said. A faith that does not become a culture is not fully accepted, not entirely thought out and not fully lived out. It's like if you truly believe something, you're going to be influencing those around you with it. So that's just by default. And that's why there's no such thing as the lie of neutrality. Yeah. But yet I've I I've been thinking about that too. It's really hard to offer this beautiful gift of freedom of religion and freedom of speech when you know everyone else is not going to respect that freedom. Right. Yeah.
Scott AllenIt's the challenging time we're in, but Nate, I I I just want to really again commend you as we wrap up here. You've been generous with your time, but I your documentary is fabulous. You as an artist, just in terms of your filmmaking, the quality of your filmmaking, the imagery, the interviews itself, the content. Uh really, really excellent. I want to encourage everyone to see it. Off school property, because again, it's it's about public education and the separation of church and state, but
Where To Watch And Join In
Scott Allenit's much deeper than that. It's getting at this deep questions of can we live with this lie of some kind of secular and neutral public square? And um how do where where do people go? It's it's it's it's it kind of you I know you had it in theaters uh for one night uh before Christmas, but but now it's out widely available as of January. Where how do how do people uh get get a hold of that and watch it?
Speaker 2Yeah, it's streaming on Angel Studios. So that's the place to go. Good old Angel Studio. Angel Studios, it's on there. Yep. Now if you um if you don't have an account but you know somebody who does, there's a share free access button and they can they can share the link out to you, and you don't have to you you'll have to create a username and a password, but you don't have to pay to watch it. So you can get free access to it from anybody who has an account. Wow, wonderful um so it's out there.
Scott AllenUm so go go to Angel Studios basically is where you're gonna find this.
unknownYep.
Scott AllenAngel Studios is the spot perfect. Yeah. Cool. And uh same with LifeWise Academy. I mean, your this is your effort, this ministry's effort to say we're going to reclaim, um, we're going to rebuild this found the foundation that's been broken down in in this area here on the basis of God in the Bible, the truth. And so I just want to commend you for that. And it's called LifeWise Academy, and just encourage our listeners and the followers of the DNA to go over and check that out and see what, yeah, yeah, start with your own public schools and your own community and see what's happening there and maybe be a part of bringing that in. Luke and Tim, as we wrap up, any final thoughts from you, uh questions?
Speaker 6I, you know, love uh the conversation about relativism earlier and uh reflecting back on the film once again, you know. I mean, people are are tired of and see the futility of looking at themselves as the compass. You know, we need a compass and and one exists for us, and it works. And it, you know, it it corresponds with reality and it uh brings flourishing when we uh submit to it and and live within it. Um I I have kind of a practical question, you know, Nate, that you know, maybe other listeners might, you know, let's say I go to LifeWise and they have a sign up and it's like, oh, you know, you need X number of people from your school and your number three or five or whatever, like what, you know, in a in a minute or so, like what would that be like? What kind of expectations would there be for people?
Speaker 2Yeah, to get one started specifically. Yeah. Yeah. So when you go to LifeWise and go click on find your school, if you do not have a LifeWise Academy chapter right now, um, we have a signature campaign. So you sign your list. That's the main thing you're gonna want to do is add your signature to the list and then share the list with others. Get as many people in your community to sign it. The minimum threshold is 50 signatures. So once a community gets to having 50 signatures on their it's kind of like a petition essentially, but it's not a petition of the school, it's a petition to us at the at the support national support center to say, hey, we're serious, we really want to do this, let's do this. And we're like, okay, sweet. And then we'll we'll start working with that community to help them get up and running. And there's 10, it's a simple 10-step process. It's got like three phases to it, and we'll have we have coaches and we've got the whole process uh laid out, and you can we'll help everyone step through that. And but that's how it starts. You you just go to your community and add your name to the list.
Luke AllenYeah, that's so cool. Um, I just am thinking about all these churches across America. Like, this is such a perfect way for us to do one of our main jobs, right? Go and make disciples of all nations. And then you guys are doing this, you offer the template, and you know, churches can just be a good idea. And again, you're working in that neglected area of public schools, which should not be neglected. And in such a needed area. Yeah. Yeah, in such a needed area.
Speaker 2Yeah, we're in the Oh, sorry.
Luke AllenNo, no, I'm just saying, I'm just encouraging everyone, go check this out. You know, if you're a pastor, I know there's a lot of pastors listening to this, check this out, share this. I I think it's just a matter of getting the word out, really. Like, this is so needed and so cool that you guys are filling this need.
Pastors, Parents, And Next Steps
Speaker 2Yeah, Luke, you're exactly right. We like the biggest problem that lifewise has is people just simply don't know this is possible to do this. And we've been, you know, as we've been pastors are busy people, and we've been sometimes early in the early days, we're going to them like, hey, we need your help to like get this started and stuff. And they would, you know, there that's just one more thing, kind of sounds like on their to-do list. Um, but what we started to realize is man, we need to just more than anything, we need to warn pastors like, hey, there's gonna be a lot of kids in your community who are gonna need a place to go to church, like that have never been in a church before. And you you should be you should be aware of this, like, because Lifewise is not owned by any one church, it's owned by the community. It you requires to have at least three churches represented on the team that does the thing in the community. And so um we've just yeah, we've and that's the other thing that's been really surprising about is we just thought, oh, yeah, you're probably gonna mostly church kids will sign up. But the percentage of kids who have been going to these programs whose families are just thinking, man, what could it hurt to help reinforce good character in my kids? I mean, every what what parent doesn't want to have as much support as they can get from the community to help reinforce quality character and the best character development comes from a biblical understanding and a biblical worldview? It's it's character transformation, it's not just character like development, you know. And so seeing these large numbers of students who have never seen a Bible, never even heard of a Bible, never like, I mean, I think it's some of the stories we've heard where a kid just says, like, hey, what's church? What is that? You know, and all these kids are then getting plugged into like their teachers are like, Well, there's churches in this community you can go check out. And if you're if you're a church pastor, this is a there's a whole bunch of students in your community that are gonna need a place to to grow. You know, we we do not replace the church. Lifewise does not replace the church there. It's this is uh, you know, we are just it's a community-driven effort.
Scott AllenAwesome. Well, super, Nate. Thanks so much for your time. And again, just uh to put in a plug, off school property is the documentary we encourage you to go see. It's at uh Angel Studios website. That's where you can get access to that. And then of course the ministry is LifeWise Academy that we're talking about. Nate, thank you so much for your generous uh time with us today and just for the work that God's put on your heart in and the way you've carried it out. Thank you.
Speaker 2Appreciate that. Yeah, it's thank you for the encouragement. God bless you all. Good to meet you all.
