Your Work Is Part of God’s Mission. Do You Agree? | Bob Varney

Episode Summary:

You can believe God cares about your life and still live like He clocks out when you walk into the office on Monday. For many Christians, our unseen sacred-secular divide is so deeply ingrained that faith becomes something we practice at church, while work, business, and everyday life operate by a different set of rules. Dr. Bob Varney joins us to expose that divide and explore what it looks like to live with an integrated biblical worldview where discipleship reaches every part of life.

Bob brings a unique perspective as a computer scientist, technology entrepreneur, and former senior leader with Campus Crusade for Christ (Cru). In this discussion, he shares how a business crisis forced him to rethink the relationship between faith and work. We explore practical ways to practice the presence of God, build Christ-honoring workplace cultures, glorify God through our gifts, and replace fear with small acts of faithful obedience.

If you want to understand how a biblical worldview transforms the way you work, lead, serve, and engage culture, this conversation is for you.

Who is the Disciple Nations Alliance (DNA)? Since 1997, DNA’s mission has been to equip followers of Jesus around the globe with a biblical worldview, empowering them to build flourishing families, communities, and nations. 👉 https://disciplenations.org/

🎙️Featured Guest: 

Bob was a serial entrepreneur for 25 years. Prior to that, he received his Ph.D. in computer science from Penn State, followed by research at Bell Laboratories for three years.

During his business career, he was invited to the White House under Pres. Clinton and testified on Capitol Hill for mid-sized companies in the USA. He appeared in The Wall Street Journal, on ABC television, and also chaired the Washington Chapter of the Council of Growing Companies.

For the last 20+ years, he has done pro bono work with Christian organizations. He was architect of Bill Bright’s transition out of presidency of Campus Crusade for Christ (Cru) and Senior Advisor for new president, Steve Douglass and was Chairman of Table 71 a major partnering model.

📌 Recommended Resources:  

     👉 Website: Integrate Faith & Work | Christian Leadership | Cities Project Global 

     👉 Recommended Episode: How The Bible Impacts the Workplace: with John Beckett

     👉 Bob Varney’s Podcast: Podcasts - Cities Project Global 

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📩 Ask us anything: info@disciplenations.org 

Episode Webpage

Transcript

Bob Varney 0:03

The lady pointed me to 1 Corinthians 10 31. Whether you eat or drink or whatsoever you do, do all to the glory of God. And then I remember she said, Well, I can do the dishes to the glory of God, and you can do the, you know, mow the lawn to the glory of God. And I remember politely nodding my head up and down, but having no clue what that could ever have meant. I think we've made the most important thing the only thing. Whatever gifted things I have and I offer them up to God, that's given God glory. It's simple. There's not a hard. And one of the things I always tell people who are in the workforce, if you don't bring God in there with you, even as quiet as you want to be, if you don't recognize his presence, then all the teaching that he wants to do for you in that place where you're spending 40, 50, 60 hours a week, you miss. You only get discipled in that 10% of your time that you go to church or Bible study.

Episode Overview

Luke Allen 1:02

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Ideas Have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. As Christians, we all know that our mission is to spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. However, our mission, the Great Co-Mission, also involves working to transform our cultures so that they increasingly reflect the truth, goodness, and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected the second part of her mission. And today most Christians are having little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ on cultures that reflect the character of the living God. Hi guys, my name is Luke Allen. I am one of the co-hosts here on the show, and I'm joined by my dad and host Scott Allen today. Hiya, Dad. Hey, yeah, we're and we're here. We just hopped off a fun recording with a new guest here on the show. His name's Dr. Bob Varney, and he uh joined us to share about his book, but also just to share um on just the power of integrating our faith into work, a topic that we talk about here all the time on the show, and yet a topic that is it's hard to do. You know, as Christians, most of us will agree that we we should represent God everywhere we go, to be ambassadors of Christ everywhere we go, to be salt and light in everything we're doing, including at work. But actually doing that is where it gets difficult and complicated. Uh and Bob today just shared so many good examples of how he's he's seen people do that, how he's done that. Um and before we hop into the recording, Dad, would you mind giving people just a little bit more of an idea of uh what we're gonna uh talk about today with Dr. Bob Barney?

Scott Allen 2:34

Yeah, absolutely. He's a a fascinating guy who, um, as we get into the discussion, um he's uh a serial entrepreneur, he's got his uh PhD in computer science, started a lot of different companies.

unknown 2:46

Uh-huh.

Scott Allen 2:47

And it's from that vantage point that he has really great insights about how to integrate faith into work. And one of the things I appreciated about Bob's um about the conversation today was just the practical, very practical um ideas that I think for any of you, you you you can just take something today and and be take it away and uh apply it. Um so I I I really did appreciate Bob's very practical kind of orientation on this. It's not rocket science, it's just often the way we think, the barriers that we have, and then how do you begin to take steps to turn that around? Um so yeah, Bob's got just fascinating insights as well, and we're gonna get into this from time that he was uh one of the senior leaders at uh Campus Crusade for Christ, which is now crew, one of the largest mission and evangelism organizations in the world. And um, so really interesting part of the discussion there as well.

Luke Allen 3:39

Yeah, it was great. Um it it it I always find it difficult because these things are relatively easy to understand. We should be faithful Christians in our work, in our callings, in our careers. Uh-huh. And yet how to do that is just it it's where it gets difficult. So today he just gave, yeah, like you said, dad, a lot of practical examples of ways he's seen people do that, of how he's done it himself. And uh I definitely will have a couple things to take away from today. The applications tend to be pretty straightforward as well, you know. It's just about doing them sometimes, and that's where we really see um God work. So uh this was a fun one. I hope you guys all enjoy it. So without further ado, let's hop into it.

From Early Computing To Entrepreneurship

Scott Allen 4:18

Well, we're really excited today to have a new guest on the podcast, Dr. Bob Varney. Uh Bob um has a PhD in computer science from Pennsylvania State University. And um after doing research at Bell Laboratories, that's actually where um uh yeah, Luke, your your great grandfather worked at Bell Laboratories there, so we have a connection there. After working at Bell Laboratories for three years, Bob began a 25-year career as an entrepreneur where he headed three companies and either merged them with public companies or led initial public public offerings. Um Bob then retired from the marketplace in 1998 and started a uh really exciting new chapter uh in his career. Um he was tapped by Campus Crusade for Christ to serve as the architect for the transition between the founder of Campus Crusade for Christ, Dr. Bill Bright, and uh the new president, uh Dr. Stephen Douglas. Um and uh so yeah, I I really am looking forward, Bob, to getting into to some of that as well. Um Bob was then asked to serve as senior advisor to Dr. Douglas in 2010 and um was asked to be uh vice president for uh leader-led movements, and that work eventually led to the formation of the nonprofit that Bob uh Dr. Varney leads called City Cities Project Global. That was in 2019, and um more recently uh Bob has written a book and uh he wrote a book that the title is The Intersection Faith, Work and Life: an Introduction to God's Design for Integrated Living. Bob's been married to his wife Sandy for 57 years and um they have two daughters and six grandchildren. Bob, that's a long introduction. I'm sure there's a lot more I could say, but thanks for joining us.

Bob Varney 6:13

Pleasure. It's a pleasure to be here. It's a privilege, actually.

Scott Allen 6:16

Well the privilege is all ours, Bob. And um yeah, uh Bob and I had a chance, or Dr. I should say Bob. Is Bob okay or Dr. Varney? What's up? Okay. We had the chance to to connect uh just recently. I had the privilege of being at my sister's house in Washington, D.C. and was able to connect to people that we had known uh through the Disciple Nations Alliance in the Washington, D.C. area for a dessert, kind of a meal. And uh Dr. Varney came uh to that and reminded me that uh several years prior, while he was working, while you were working with uh Campus Crusade for Christ, now Crew, um you had invited uh my coworker uh Darryl Miller to be a part of some work that you were doing at Crew to help seed kind of a biblical worldview holistic mission mindset uh into the organization. And I I remembered that uh so well because we were so thrilled with that opportunity to to speak to the leadership of Campus Crusade for Christ. That was a big deal for us. And uh Bob, you were responsible for setting that up. I do remember that the kind of the the takeaway after it was over was that, well, it was a nice try, but it wasn't that successful. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that as well. It was so good to reconnect with you again, Bob. And so it's been really, really exciting for us uh to or yeah, for me anyways, to to be able to reconnect. Bob is also helping uh the DNA right now on a project that we're working on to update uh and to relaunch our core training. And Bob, you've been super helpful in that. I'm really grateful for for your insights into that as well. Uh Bob, where to start? There I guess I'd like to go all the way back to um it's very impressive that you have a PhD from uh in computer science from Pennsylvania State University. Um that was at the beginning of the tech revolution. So you you you have like a personal front row seat to all of that, I take it.

Bob Varney 8:15

I do. I do. I mean, it was uh all of these things come with stories, you know, and as you get older you you collect more and more of them. Um and uh I actually stumbled into computers. I mean, computers were something that were outside everybody's life back in the 60s, right? It was nothing was at home ever, okay? It was all these big mainframe things. And um I was as a as an intern in the Long Island Lighting Company, um, I decided to look into computers and got a little book and started reading it and got so excited. I read the whole book the first night I got it, and came in the next day and said, Where's a computer? Can I do something with one of these? You know. Uh so that was the beginning. I took the only course that the University of Rochester had, which is where I got my degree in pick chemistry. So, you know, here I am uh after the graduation working at IBM um in 1966, working on computers, and even got introduced to microcode, which I mean, people didn't know about anything about computers. They certainly didn't do microcode, but I had some research friends. So, I mean, I God blessed me by putting me literally at the forefront of this.

Scott Allen 9:29

Yeah, I mean, those are really early days. I mean, I was uh I was two years old at that time, and I I was first introduced to computers in college, right? I thought I thought that was a new thing when I was in college.

Bob Varney 9:40

Yeah. Well, when I got my PhD, there were six universities in the United States that offered a PhD program in computer science, and no university is offering a bachelor's. And now you get the stuff in high school, you know?

Scott Allen 9:53

Oh, yeah.

Bob Varney 9:55

So it's it's been a wonderful ride. I mean, I God has really blessed me in the set of things. Uh when I was around 12 years old, I read some books on uh Galileo and Newton and all those guys that did marvelous things way back in the 17th and 18th centuries. And I remember thinking, oh my goodness, all of the new things are over. It's too late for me. And I've heard my cry. And uh I've had the opportunity to be at the forefront of uh single processing of computers, uh, of some of the AI stuff. I mean, it's been just delightful.

Scott Allen 10:34

Uh yeah, uh do you do you keep up with all of the changes that are happening even now? I mean, it's just exploding in this whole new way with AI, Bob. Are you are you I I imagine you're very interested in that.

Bob Varney 10:46

I'm uh aware. Okay. Thankfully, I have an IT guy that works for me. Uh he keeps me up. Uh gotcha. I'm not roving around the internet looking for this stuff. I I get it secondhand.

When God Asked One Question

Scott Allen 11:00

Okay. Bob, I'd like to explore. Were you um during this time when you were uh setting up your new companies um, you know, at this kind of period of your life where you were really involved in business, entrepreneurship, tech entrepreneurship, were you were you a Christian? Were you involved in the subject of your book, integrating your faith and your work at that time? Tell us a little bit about that.

Bob Varney 11:22

Okay. Uh the answer was I I was a Christian. I accepted Christ in graduate school and uh graduated, you know, as you said, went to Bell Laboratories for a while, came down here and began my entrepreneurial career. Um and it wasn't until most of the way through my first company that something happened that caused me to shock me, I guess is the better word. All right. Um at the time I was bored with my company, oddly enough, wasn't keeping me busy enough. So I decided to add to my uh being a CEO uh the idea of uh being a real estate developer. So I um I went ahead and um bought 10 acres of property, started the whole process of building buildings, built some buildings, we're offering them as office condos, and and there was a financial crisis uh which just stopped the market. And it was at that point that God found me. All right, 10 years after I'm a Christian, sitting in my car, looking over at my nearly empty buildings, and I hear this voice that says, Bob, very kind voice. Did you ask me before you started that project? And I remember thinking, of course not. You know, I was my theology, 10 years as a Christian, was that God didn't actually care about anything other than worship and church and Bible study and maybe taking care of your kids. So that was the turnaround point for me. Um when I did a merger IPO with the first company uh and that was therefore out of a job, I thought, well, I guess I have to pray. That's what this message seemed to be. You know, my next step was where's my next job? What's it gonna be like? And I began praying, thinking that uh I would invent something. As a computer science guy, fresh out of Bell Labs, not too far away, I could do something. Uh and I started out actually, uh I had a company I didn't you didn't mention that I closed down uh because I was a Macintosh developer before the Mac came out. So I'm in the middle of doing that, and and God basically urged me, this is not a voice, just said, you know, go find some prototype product. So I began praying because I had no idea how one would ever do that. And about two weeks after I started praying, I was downstairs at church. A guy that had worked for me in this previous company that I took out, um, came up and said, Hey, I've been working with a couple guys. We got three prototype products, we're looking for a CEO. We want to know if you want the job. And I thought, oh my goodness. How you know, does that what God does? I mean, does God care that much that he literally gives me the job? Well, the answer is yes, actually. So it was in that company, it's called International Telesystems Corporation.

Talking About God With Integrity

Bob Varney 14:12

It was a communic telecommunications company back in 1984 when we started. Um, we brought data and voice to the same terminal, okay? Which was unheard of back then. I mean, now people walk around with it in their pocket, you know, but it didn't look like that back in the 80s. And it was through that company that I really began to understand what it was actually like to bring your faith into work. I mean, I it was a so-called secular company. Um I might have had, I don't know, 10 or 15% of the people were Christians and everybody else was not. And not all the Christians were really solid either, you know. Um, but I felt like it was okay to talk about God. You know, when when people would talk to me, I would reference God from time to time. I mean, not always. I mean, it wasn't a planned speech. Right. I mean, if God is in your life, it's like, you know, when your wife is in your life, you know, you have a conversation and her name comes up. Something happens and you say, Oh, well, Sandy did this or Sandy did that, or your kids. I mean, all, you know, well, if God's in your life, you know, He his name comes up. You know? And at one point, I did have my chief programmer go to the VP of RD that I had. Now, he was the one that asked me to be the CEO, right? So this is some years later. We got a company that's running, we got a product that's going. And my chief programmer comes along and says, you know, you're friends, you're friends with Bob. Um, so could you just ask him not to talk about God so much? So Alan, my VP, says to Andrew, the programmer, Well, Andrew, I have a question for you. What do you think about hypocrites? Is it good to be a hypocrite? Of course, Andrew says, no, it's not good. It's never good to be a hypocrite. So Alan wisely says, Why exactly are you asking me to ask Bob to be a hypocrite? He's simply being who he is. And I think that's the that's the really the main point of all taking your faith anywhere, including work. When you're in the presence of God and He is with you all the time, you talk about it once in a while. You know, and it's not every kind I'm not I'm not aiming at somebody to proselytize. You know, I'm not trying to say, okay, well, you're going to hell and I gotta save you. You know, it's more like I care about you. Or it's even I care about you if I ask to pray about you, I care about you if I want to learn more about you. But if I'm just in conversation, it it's it's a mention. You know? So that's where it all started.

Scott Allen 16:50

Bob, I'd like to just probe into that. I think it's fascinating. Thanks for sharing that. So you were you had become a Christian, you said you were in graduate school?

Speaker 16:58

Yes.

Scott Allen 16:59

And how long before, how long was the was the gap there between that time when you you accepted Christ and you had that aha moment, let's say, where God spoke to you and said, you know, did you ask me about that, you know, about about this decision that you made? How many how long was that?

Bob Varney 17:16

It was a decade.

Scott Allen 17:18

Ten years. Yeah.

Bob Varney 17:19

When I was in graduate school, it took me a couple years to become a Christian. I mean, I was introduced to Christ, but it didn't stick really well. Uh 10 years after that.

Scott Allen 17:28

Okay, okay. But I I just think it's fascinating that in that in those ten years um that you were a new Christian, uh presumably growing in your faith, I ass which I assume you were attending church. Um y you you still had the thought, it was kind of a a default thought that my work in computer science tech business is separate from my faith, so so much so that I I wouldn't even think to to pray about it, like asking God, hey God, you know, what do you think about this decision, that decision? I just don't I don't think about it. Uh do you think your experience is still common amongst Christians today? And I guess the question is, why why why what are we missing in in the formation of Christians like yourself that that um that uh causes them to have such a strict separation between the work that they do for most, you know, for hours, right, of their waking day and life and their faith. The most important thing, you know, is to talk a little bit about that from your own experience, Bob.

Speaker 18:35

Yeah. Um I was at a Bible church. Um, I learned a lot about the Bible. I taught Sunday school there, I had many classes on that. Um and what what what happens in Christianity quite often, it's not limited to Bible churches, is that you don't hear sermons about bringing your faith to work. You hear sermons about how do I evangelize. And if you're really a strong Christian, you go take an evangelism course, and then when you try to go practice it in all the places that you have an opportunity to practice, so many times it doesn't work, doesn't work well. Um, we had a guy in uh Cote d'Ivoire who really wanted to tell everybody about Jesus. He had a few hundred people working for him, and he went through every cubicle multiple times until his international boss uh up in Belgium uh said, You gotta stop doing that because otherwise I have to fire you. And and he was just not successful. And it's not unusual, because generally speaking, we're not all evangelists. There's a few of us who are, but I'm not one of them. Okay, and so it's not natural. So it's and when I whenever you know, out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks, the Bible says, right? Well, if my heart is anxious or nervous or upset, and I feel like, oh, I I really got how am I gonna get this gospel in here? How am I gonna say this? Well, by the time I go say something, I'm probably offensive because I'm not comfortable. And if I'm not comfortable, you're not comfortable. Well, and then pretty soon you're actually offended, more than just uncomfortable. Well, most of us live in that world, okay? And there is very little teaching about what does it look like to bring your faith to work? What does it look like to feel the presence of God everywhere? Uh what does it look like to thank God? Oh, thank you. That was nice. You know, I mean I thank God when I get a parking place. I'm I lose something at home here, and and I say, Oh, where did I put that? Where did that thing go? You know, and then I find it. I say, Oh, hey, thanks, Lord. You know, because I mean God actually cares about us. And it's it's just like, you know, when a kid loses a toy and and you find it for them, they they're thankful, they're joyful, you know. And it's it's the little stuff like that that that we we truly haven't moved um in into our world. And partly, uh, you know, I have to move over to the spiritual warfare side, okay? I mean, guess who's in charge of lying to us, right? I mean, you've got Satan telling us what you know there's this great big sacred secular divide, or this church and state separation that you have to abide by because otherwise you get kicked out of the country, or whatever Satan says to you that puts fear in your heart. So you get that working on the one hand, yeah, and on the other hand, you've got the educational process in the churches where discipleship is heavily about learning about the Bible, learning about God, sometimes walking with God, but even when that happens, it's typically walking with God in a Christian context. So, where do I bring my faith? Well, I'll bring it to church. Where do I do my worship? Well, it's the first 15 minutes of church. You know, I mean, we've got definitions mixed up. Um, and I think it's I think I think what I've experienced is common. And the stats I have on it is that about 10% of Christians, born again, going to heaven, Christians, actually operate like God is with them all the time. The other 90%, which is just an absolutely huge number, don't. And some of them are so scared they don't even think about it. Some of them think about it and get a little frustrated. Some of them actually try. But then they fail because the the place, you know, it's hard to go to a place and find the proper um education, if you will.

Scott Allen 22:43

Yeah. I appreciate, Bob, your your your bringing up the fact that the sh the formation that you had was both from the culture, separation of church and state, you can't bring up the Bible in the context of work or whatever it is. You know, there was pressure coming from the culture. And there was also just a lack of teaching from the church. You know, the discipleship, the learning about the Bible and about God uh didn't cross over into application in terms of of the way you do your work or how you think about integrating it into your work life. It just wasn't included. So you had a big aha.

Speaker 23:18

It's a very simple thing, but there's a tiny piece. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but go ahead. It's the idea of being a man of integrity or a woman of integrity.

Scott Allen 23:27

Right.

Speaker 23:28

And to do an excellent job. I mean, those two little pieces come into the workplace, but but that's pretty narrow.

Scott Allen 23:34

Yeah, right. Or or to, like you say, to do you use the your work relationships as a as a place for evangelism and sharing your faith. But but your your aha was very simple and profound at the same time. God speaking to you and saying, Bob, did you ask me about that business decision? And you had to kind of say, Well, I didn't think I had to pray about business decisions. I didn't think you were interested, or whatever it was. And you realizing, no, God's very interested in these things. And uh so that was life, that had to be life-changing for you, Bob.

Speaker 24:05

Well, that's absolutely life-changing. Absolutely life-changing.

Scott Allen 24:09

So simple. What other lessons over the years did you learn? Obviously praying. God's interested. I can't make decisions uh in my tech business world without God, without his wisdom, leadership, guidance, he cares. This is his domain, you know, as much as the church or anything else. So I need to pray and I need to seek his wisdom. I want to share my faith. What other practical lessons, Bob, did you learn from that time in terms of how to really seamlessly live out your faith, you know, the the f you know, and and bring the Bible, the teachings and the truth of the Bible into the work you did.

Speaker 24:45

Yeah, and and uh much of what I've learned, uh, I want to say is actually simple. Okay? Very simple. Um, the idea of the presence of God. I mean, that's not hard. Talking about God the same way I talk about my wife. I mean, why would I not do that? Right? It's simple. Everybody, anybody can do that, not hard.

Scott Allen 25:06

But profound at the same time, Bob, because often we just have this like, you know, we we unconscious divide in our minds, and we say, in this area, God isn't involved or the Bible doesn't apply.

unknown 25:17

Right.

Speaker 25:17

So you have to have some education that points that out. That's what you do, that's what I do. Okay. Uh, where you tell people this is a lie, this is Satan's lie. Sacred secular divide is not true. Uh there is one whole life, you're one whole person who has to go in on that whole life all the time, you know? And so, but but somebody has to point it out to you because why culture is so strong. Now, in a good way and in a bad way. All right. So um, I want to talk to you about the glory of God in a little bit, but so remind me in case I forget.

Speaker 3 25:53

Okay.

Speaker 25:53

But with regard to culture, when you're raising, when you're raising your son, you were worried about the crowd that he hung around with, because you knew that the crowd he hung around with was going to impact his life, right? And if you have a very strong crowd, made up of a lot of people who are not as good as you'd like, then that culture is probably stronger for a time being as a child's growing up than the parental, uh, right? Unless you counterbalance it, unless you do something with it, you got to do something. The culture is really strong.

Speaker 3 26:29

Yeah.

Speaker 26:29

You mentioned the culture uh of our country, right? Which is what I was talking about. Uh there's a sacred secular divide. Uh people don't call it that. They call it a church in the United States, they call it church, uh church state separation. And I would bet you most everybody in the country believes it. Just like we believe evolution. We've got conditioned to say it must be true. I mean, I remember being at Penn State, having a biology friend. I mean, here I am, not a Christian, okay? Or no, just a brand new Christian, because uh I was that was the time frame. And he said he's beginning to question evolution. And I remember thinking, really? Why would you do that? There are things in the culture which are just extremely powerful. So I've got the interesting positive side of that in my telecom company, uh, though I spoke about God often, okay, and everybody clearly knew I was a Christian. Matter of fact, I interviewed everybody and told them I was. And I told them that if we if they were uncomfortable with the culture that they felt, and we offered you a job, I would advise them, don't take the job because you're not going to change the culture. Okay. So then, 10 years after I sold this company to a public company, somebody was still in town.

Building A Workplace Culture That Lasts

Speaker 27:52

There were about 40 people still left. We sold it to a guy in New England, so a whole bunch of people moved. So there's about 40 people left. A decade later, somebody decides to have an ITC reunion that was International Telesystems Corporation. So I walk in the door and there's Linda just waiting for me to walk through the door. Now, who is Linda? Linda was my customer service lady, did a great job, very attentive, cared about the customers because our culture was you care about the customers. You care about the vendors. I mean, that was part of the culture I brought into the company. She comes running over to me with tears in her eyes. And she says, I'm a Christian. And I said, What? How did that happen? She said, Well, it was almost like the minute you left, something changed. The minute we got acquired, something changed. I couldn't figure out what it was. And I mean, I was obviously the vocal point of the culture. Uh, and it wasn't just God, it was the whole rest of the culture. But it's like us telling our kids, no, you can't talk about Jesus at school. Okay? No, teachers, you can't have a Bible on your desk. I mean, we tell people that, you know, so that's the kind of thing that began happening inside. Uh, and after a few months, she said, I I gotta first of all, I gotta figure out what happened. And then she realized God had been removed. Okay, it wasn't just me, but all the aspects of God had been removed. And she figured she got to know who that God was.

Scott Allen 29:29

Wow. Wow.

Speaker 29:30

So it's a powerful culture working in a powerful way that saved a soul and a couple little kids that came after that.

Scott Allen 29:38

And it's a testimony to the fact that you, Bob, had a vision to create a culture in the business. I think this is something we don't often we don't think about as much as we should. We all have opportunities to create culture in our families, sports, teams, wherever you have influence, and you had that influence in your business. And because your understanding of the integration of your faith and work was such, you were able to say, How do I create a a a culture rooted in the scriptures, rooted in the truths of the scriptures? You know, even practically, that my vendors and my employees are image bearers of God and need to be treated a certain way, right? You created a certain culture and that had it.

Speaker 30:18

The way we positioned that was we said, our good name is priceless. Okay? We want to do well, we want to treat you well, we want to produce a good product. All of those things is protecting our name because it's really precious. Well, right after that word, every it showed up everywhere on our marketing material. It said Proverbs 22, for those who cared what Proverbs was. But that's, I mean, so everybody kind of knew. I didn't flash it, I didn't tell, you know, uh, but it was it was clear. I mean, I didn't make the company, you know, God God lives here or something like that.

Speaker 3 30:54

Right.

Speaker 30:56

Although someone did say it was International Telesystems Corporation, and one of my employees came along and said, I know what ITC stands for. And I said, uh yeah, International Telesystems. She said, No, no, I trusted Christ.

Scott Allen 31:11

I trusted Christ.

Speaker 31:14

I had never thought of those initials that way, but uh it was fun.

Scott Allen 31:19

Luke, I'd like to bring you in. I I want to pivot to talking about the um the work that you did with Campus Crusade for Christ, Bob. But before I do that, I know this there's so much rich wisdom that we can gain from you, Bob, about your inner your own personal experience integrating your faith and work. Um Luke, what questions do you have for Bob related to that?

Speaker 31:40

Before you ask, Luke, if I could interrupt, uh the reminder I was asked, I know we're gonna you're gonna hard to deal with me with

What “Glory To God” Means

Speaker 31:49

time. I'm sorry. Um, but yeah, the glory of God. Uh, because when I first became a Christian, you know, within the first year or two, I was at a CNMA church, uh, went to lunch with somebody, you know, an older couple invited us home after church, and we had a little lunch. And the lady pointed me to 1 Corinthians 10 31. Whether you eat or drink or whatsoever you do, do all to the glory of God. And then I remember she said, Well, I can do the dishes to the glory of God, and you can do the, you know, mow the lawn to the glory of God. And I remember politely nodding my head up and down, but having no clue what that could ever have meant. Okay. In the years later, getting into some of this faith and work stuff, God brought to mind when my kids were about eight and twelve years old. We went down to Bethany Beach over on the Atlantic Ocean, October, rented a little house. It was a little cool, so they decided to build a snow castle. I mean, a sand castle. So here they are, you know, an hour of this wonderful village, the roads and the little houses, and you know, and then they invite Sandy and I over to see it. And they tell us about the roads and the houses and where they're living and, you know, the whole story. This is a big, you know, the big deal, right? Then they come to this one at the end, the big castle, right? That's for you and mom. And I remember thinking, oh my goodness, that's my kids giving glory to me. I'm a kid. I should be able to give glory to God in the very same way. Just doing what I whatever gifted things I have, and I offer them up to God, that's giving God glory. It's simple, it's not hard. You know? And an example of an artist is one that we can readily understand better because most of us can't draw, okay? Once in a while you run across somebody who says, Let me sketch you. And they draw a picture of your face, and you think, How did you ever do that, right? But the artist says, it's no big deal. So you lose track of the gifts that God has given you sometimes. And like I said, the artists are the most obvious. Uh, but God has given all of us gifts. When we practice them, we ought to thank God. Thank God that I learned languages, thank God that I know computer science. Thank God that math works okay for me. Thanks God that I that I picture things well, that I notice that the stars in the sky and the in the in in the universe is infinite, infinite, right? At the same time as a chemist, I look down at the atom and the molecules, and I think it's infinitesimal. Oh my goodness. I mean, the expanse is incredible. You know, and all of that understanding just gives glory to God. So I I didn't want to miss that one.

Scott Allen 34:42

Oh, that's so good. Uh it reminds me of a story I read. Um, well, you know, Oz Guinness has his famous book, The Call, and he talks about in that book his own family, the Guinness family, which actually goes back to Ireland and Guinness beer, and um it's a it's a really interesting story. But um I think it's yeah, one of his great great grandmothers was about to commit suicide. He tells this story, and right before she was about to cast herself over the bridge um into the water, she her eyes caught a farmer in a field. This is in Europe or in England, somewhere Ireland, and he was just doing the work of ploughing and cultivating, but he was doing it with such exquisite care and there was a beauty to the field and um that it caught her, you know, just the purpose, you know, that that he had in doing that, doing it for you know, in in and as it turned out, for the glory of God, something as simple as as you know, as plowing a field and it it saved her life, you know, just seeing that. I I just so I I I was always moved by that story just because i i it makes a difference, like you're saying, to do something for the glory of God, and it can be as simple as plowing a field. It doesn't have you know, i i but it makes a difference. People notice it, it just changes things. So sorry, Luke, I want to bring you in on this part too, because I know that I think for a lot of there's I know Luke, you have a lot of friends that are starting their careers, and I think they struggle a little bit. They they may know conceptually, but not practically. What what questions do you have, Luke, for Bob?

Luke Allen 36:20

Yeah. It is interesting running into uh Christians and most people you come across, you say, you know, do you have a biblical worldview of your work? Do you see your work as important to God? Do you have an understanding of how to live out your work faithfully to God? And most people are gonna be like, Yeah, totally. Yeah, I've I've heard that my whole life in church, you know, whatever you do, right? Whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do it all for glory to God. But then you look at how they're living it out, and I see this in myself, and we just don't connect the dots. You know, this sacred secular divide is so strong that we just have not been able to practically find ways of living this out. And I think it's I think it's simpler than we often give it credit for. It's it's kind of the mundane things. You know, I I think of again back to First Corinthians 10, whether you eat or drink, it uses those as an example. And then whatever you do, because those two things are some of the most mundane things we all do every day. And um I really appreciated your story about the creating culture in your workspace. Um, because so often in this work that w we share, um, we're going out and we're trying to disciple the nations. Go and make disciples of all nations. That requires building cultures, that grows cultivating cultures. Um and yet a lot of times when Christians talk about culture, they say, Oh, culture's dirty. Oh, let's just focus on souls, let's focus on people. You know, don't disciple the nations, disciple people. And yet blessing a culture, creating a culture environment in the worksplace that is a blessing to people and the people working there, and then of course your customers as well, it doesn't go unnoticed. It matters. And that's a perfect example for why Christians should go out and create cultures and disciple the nations at the level of culture. Uh, because it makes a big difference, and it's kind of that pre-evangelism that uh Francis Schaefford talked about a lot, is create the environment as they did in Ireland where people can see God's glory through a field. Um so I guess my question is, and this will loop into your book and your work at Crew, I think a lot of young Christians are still discipled when they're looking at a career, looking at work, when you're going through high school and you're thinking about your career opportunities and which direction you want to go, maybe in college, your major.

The Gospel Of The Kingdom Vision

Luke Allen 38:25

And a lot of Christians still are taught and discipled in the sacred secular understanding of their work being separate, less important as the rest of their life, this this the sacred parts of their life. How can we how can we message differently to young people to change this trend that we've seen for years and years and years in churches?

Speaker 38:44

Yeah, it's um the institution of the church is is a challenge. I mean, it's it's God's sort of largest asset in the world. Um, and I know that he intends it to be used uh to develop all of the people in his kingdom. Um and somewhere in the last hundred or 150 years, um, we've lost a lot of that in a lot of the churches. Um, I mean, some of the churches have have actually disappeared from Jesus in a way, okay? Uh but all the ones that that talk about evangelism, talk about needing Christ, uh, talk about you know eternal life, um I think the simplest way to think about that is that we've made the most important thing the only thing. And when you do that, when you do it, no matter what you're doing, I mean, if if you're if you're working uh at trying to build a uh a locomotive, uh and there's one thing that's really, really key that if you don't get it right, you know, the the the whole engine and the thing doesn't work. And then that's all you do. You never build the engine. I mean, it just doesn't work. So it's it's it's I mean, if it weren't so sad, it would be comical, actually. Um, but I think that's that underlies the issue, and that is further reinforced by by an urgency call.

Scott Allen 40:16

And again, Bob, the most just if I could just cut in, because I think what you're saying here is uh so profound, we've made the most important thing the only thing. The most important thing you're referring to is the is the gospel, right? The the the the gospel message of salvation through Christ, through faith in Jesus Christ. That's the most important thing when we we're talking about the Bible, biblical worldview, our faith. We've taken that and made it the only thing, right?

Speaker 40:46

Yes, yes, and and some of the way we've done that is when you talk about the gospel, the word that's in Christianity today is salvation through Christ. But when you take a look at the some of the words in scripture, the gospel of the kingdom, well now that's larger. There's more stuff going on in the kingdom than personal salvation. Okay, so so we've done it to ourselves here in picking out one word, and we've made it mean less than it actually means.

Scott Allen 41:22

We we've reduced it to just the personal that's right. Because you're right, kingdom. When you think of kingdom, now you're talking about things like nations, cultures, laws. It's something bigger than just me and my own self, right? Yes.

Speaker 41:37

Yeah, it is, it is. Yep. And it's it's what it's what Moses did with the nation of Israel. Uh I mean, they went in a you know, 400 years of generational slavery, and they come out a nation, and you see Joshua leading that nation into the promised land. You know, but it's a nation. I mean, they they've they've got family structure, they've got educational structure, they've got communications, they've they've all got different businesses that they run because they have to. Territory, right, right, right. So I don't know if I got back to your book, though. I mean, you you were asking uh Luke about uh about the book. The the book got put together by some of my uh people that are on my team, okay? And it was made from uh uh stuff that that I wrote and a couple other people wrote inside the company. I mean, it was a lot of it was probably what I wrote, but um it's uh it was a bunch of things that we put together, and the reason we put them together was because of how poor the understanding is of what's what how God works, what is the kingdom of God, you know? And I mean our first section here is the sacredness of everyday life. I mean, you gotta you can't lose that. I mean, if if if you can understand that many of the things in everyday life are sacred, after a little while, that everything, I mean, many many things turns into everything. You know, I mean you you you can get there. Um, but it's a different notion. You you mean doing the lawn is sacred? I mean farming the field, like you were saying. You know, I mean it's why is it sacred? Well, that now you have to get down to the root of why, you know, now you get down to God, and it's all about God, always, right? Um uh and and and then uh you've got the kingdom. What is the kingdom? Where is the kingdom? Who's in the kingdom? What we have responsibilities in the kingdom. Uh where do they come to get from? Well, they got designed in us. We all have gifts, we all kind of know that. Well, you begin to put the story together and you say, Well, that's fascinating. You know, I have a gift that helps me know how to build bridges. Okay? I have a gift that helps me in this information world. I have a gift that helps me care for people and do surgeries. You know, I have a gift that lets me write articles that or write books that change people's minds and hearts. I mean, we all have gifts and we know where they come from. And you begin to say, okay, why? Well, that's because we got a kingdom out here. And as I I guess I saw this first with uh Dallas Willard, he said, think about a king. What is the extent of the king's kingdom? Where are the boundaries? Well, whatever he has authority over, that's the boundaries. Well, okay, you put your Christian hat back on again, and you say, okay, what are the boundaries of God's kingdom? Well, you don't, I mean, it's you it's um limitless.

Scott Allen 44:43

Yep, yeah. Right.

Speaker 44:46

Here you are. And why why then is is is the stuff I do every day not sacred? Why is it not holy? When God calls us to be holy. Well, what does holy mean anyway? We we got a lot of these words that are Christian words, and we confuse them with having to do them in church, or if I'm holy, I have to act like the priest or the pastor or somebody, you know. Um, whereas we know from Jesus, you know, it's sort of come as you are. And and when I get to include you, I adopt you as a child, and you're mine, and I'm never gonna go away. You know, all of that wonderful, warm stuff. And somehow we get confused in being busy, trying to get ahead, trying to succeed, uh, trying to be somebody that you think somebody else wants. I mean, there's many, many things that distract us from just enjoying God.

Scott Allen 45:45

I want to commend your book, Bob. Again, the title of Bob's book is The Intersection Faith, Work and Life, an Introduction to God's Design for Integrated Living. Um, he co-wrote it with Hugh Brandt. And um, Bob, I read this, you gave it to me when I was with you back in Washington, D.C. in January, and I read it on the flight home. It's that kind of a book that you can it's it's a short, it's well written, well designed, it's perfect just to give to somebody to introduce them to these concepts that you're talking about. And I just want to thank you for that. It's just it's it's it's it's it's just the clarity of it, the it's profound. You're getting into these profound issues, but uh but with the clarity that comes out of your own experience too. So I just really want to recommend this to everyone.

Speaker 46:38

Um really lovely.

Scott Allen 46:41

Well, I wanted to get I really want to get onto Campus Crusade for Christ, and I know we're running out of time, but I have one more question I'm kind of dying to ask you as just as it comes to integrating faith and work, because I run into this people tend to separate, as you know, their faith from their work, and work is part of the way that they separate these things is that th they feel like how can I say it? Okay, I let me give a quick example. I I was speaking with a guy here in Bend, Oregon, who works for the city government and he said, Hey, if I if I Scott, if I talked the way you are are teaching me uh, you know, in city hall, in my role in city government, I would be fired, you know. I I I just can't do that. I can't bring my faith into this environment. And so I've gotta I've gotta keep quiet. The other s the other thing that I was I often hear is that I have to keep doing this job because this is the way I earn money. I may want to do something else or feel called to, but I don't see how I can earn any money doing that thing, even if God was calling me into that. It doesn't seem practical. There's a f I guess what I'm trying to say on both of these examples is there's kind of a fear. And and it's justifiable, but but when you bring God into the into the equation, I feel like it's less justifiable. You know, right. If you may get fired, but maybe God's got something else for you to do, and he's gonna open some new doors, but you've got to take that risk. Um and it and it may be a risk financially. Can you speak to that, Bob? You're an entrepreneur, because I feel like that um is something that is a real barrier for a lot of Christians. They are uh risk averse in different ways because maybe because God that God's not a part of it or something. I'm not sure. What are you what are

Fear, Risk, And Small Steps

Scott Allen 48:26

your thoughts on that?

Speaker 48:26

Well, it's it's ch actually it's a little challenging. I talked about the artist before, yeah, and how they don't know uh uh they don't recognize their gifts so well. I'm an entrepreneur, right? And I forget that people don't take risks, okay? I mean, the proud of people that's what I do. I was at a I was at a choir party last night. I had a this t-shirt on uh my skydiving in Kauai, okay, some years ago. I think I was still over 65 when I did it. And this lady was amazed that I would take that kind of a risk. So so I'm not a great one to actually advise people um because it is the fear. I mean, you you've nailed it. It's the fear of the world. And so now the question, I mean, the theor theological question, and it's hard to ask this question of yourself or somebody else. The question is, do I fear the world more than I fear God? Or do I fear God more than I fear fear the world? You know, and I mean, on the one hand, we like to try to talk about God as a loving God and everything, but but this notion of being so much afraid of of the world that I don't, I'm not obedient to God. I'm not comfortable with God, I'm not comfortable being me over here. You know, I mean it's it's it's so much about being comfortable. I mean, out of the out of the abundance of the heart that I speaks. I mean, I I I uh and we've all we've so many times experienced personal interactions where it felt funny when we left. Well, why did it feel funny? Well, there was probably something about me that was uncomfortable. So the whole thing was uncomfortable. Sometimes it's the other person, but but often it's it's you. So this uh it is a fear, and I guess my best advice to people is let's cut the fear down in little pieces, okay? I mean, when you're gonna take a risk, well, let's not take it all the time, all right? Let's not just bungee jump off the bridge right now, okay? I mean, we do have the wires that hold us, but the bridges still not really feel good, okay? So let's let's walk down the side to get to the water. That takes us one step at a time. So somehow breaking up the fear. Okay, here I am. I can't bring my faith to work. Well, what does that mean? Does that mean I can't be kind? No, it doesn't mean that. Okay, well, let's practice being kind. Does that mean I have to be kind to somebody I don't like? Uh-huh. Well, let's try that, okay? How about you find the person that you have the greatest difficulty with and commit to start praying about them? Let's do that. Okay? That's, you know, that's all by yourself, okay? The neat thing about that, however, though, is when you begin praying about the other person that you don't like. And then if you're really earnest about it, you have to go find out a little bit more about them. Otherwise, your prayers aren't quite pointed enough. Uh, and before you know it, you're now in a conversation. So it's it's the little pieces. We have to pull them apart and say, Well, what can you do? Because that's that's the appropriate question.

Scott Allen 51:50

Well, I like that too, Bob, because as you do those smaller steps, you see you you you're going to see God's faithfulness. He's going to be faithful. And that that builds the faith so that when the bigger test comes and and I I I get it, it's a frightening thing. You know, I mean, I'm not unsympathetic to people, and I've faced some of these in my own career. You know, I I I you know, what what God, can I really take that step? What how am I going to provide for my family? I don't know. And yet, if you feel God calling you, you th those those are opportunities for incredible growth because you see God work in a way that you know you would have never seen otherwise, right? You really kind of are walking on the water, so to speak. Um, you know, if Christ is calling you to do that, you have to kind of do that. But again, it's it's it's not easy. This is not an easy time for a lot of people for different reasons to integrate their faith and their work, right? Yeah.

Transitioning From Marketplace To Crew

Scott Allen 52:46

I'd like to just uh go on and talk a little bit about the time that you worked. What you I mean, that was really an honor that you Campus Crusade for Christ, Bill Bright, the great founder of one of the great ministries of of you know the church in the 20th century and even up to today, you know, would would invite you to be a part of that transition. Really important transition. How did that come about, Bob? What what did you have a relationship? You must have had a relationship you know for some time.

Speaker 53:13

Yeah, actually not. I didn't. Um we were donors. I mean, we started out being donors for some of the campus crusade staff, so that happened. Uh we were here in Washington, there was an outfit called the Christian Embassy, which is one of the ministries of Campus Crusade, just like Family Life and Ethics in Action, Josh McDowell, Jesus film, all those little pieces. And we really thought that what they were doing was wonderful. Uh it was back at a time when uh uh one of the senators had just accepted Christ because of the work of Christian Embassy. So we thought, man, this is really wonderful stuff, okay? So it was also at the same time I was actually going bankrupt because of the difficulty I had with my real estate project with the U.S. economy. Uh, nevertheless, I I think we decided to donate. This is back in what, 81, 82, somewhere in there. Um, we decided to donate $5,000. Uh this we didn't know anything. I thought it was private. I thought no one would know. They just took the money and put it in a in the sun, you know. So we did that one night, and the next day they came back and everybody thanked us and congratulated us. I thought, my goodness, how did you all know? Well, that's how much I knew about how this Christian thing worked, you know. But um what then happened uh some years later, um, the head of the Christian embassy, when Bill stepped, announced he was stepping down, he he had called me. I'd done a little bit of work with him, uh, and he decided um that he that I should come to this meeting of what do we do about Bill stepping down. Okay. So he announces it at the CSU uh to 5,000 staff members. A couple of the staff members think you have to have a transition. They call the director of the Christian Embassy, he calls me, I end up in Atlanta. But the God part of this, I mean, all of that's the God part. But what preceded it was I had just taken uh the crosswalk public, okay? Uh computer company, internet company. Um, and I had retired from that, wondered what I was gonna do with myself, decided I liked transition as a topic, called a friend who who was in that business, organizational development. He sent me a but you know, he told me a bunch of titles. I went and bought the books, and I really thought I was gonna sit down for six months of my own little master's program. In about three weeks, I was finished with all of the books. Okay. And I thought, my goodness. Because what happened was that I had been through transitions, multiple companies. My wife, as a dentist, had been doing off sites and trying to figure out how to do the culture. And so we knew a lot of this stuff, and the books were simply labeling them, giving the research, giving the examples. So, so I, you know, I just I had new vocabulary, but I I knew this stuff in my heart. Well, now, next the following week, I get a call to meet these guys in Atlanta. I go down there and uh they talk about it for a couple hours, and I'm quiet because I'm the new guy and the non-staff member. And I finally say, I got a I got a couple thoughts. I go up to a flip chart and I write down about eight things I think they're supposed to do. And they sort of say, Okay, let's do that. I said, You take all the notes, you send them to Bill Bright, and you guys just carry on, you'll do fine. Well, two weeks later, Bill calls uh and asks me to come out. And so anyway, I just got dropped into it. Wow, just got dropped into it.

Scott Allen 56:44

Wow.

Speaker 56:44

But you can see God. I mean, he's doing all these little things.

Scott Allen 56:47

No, absolutely, absolutely. And that led you into ministry with Campus Crusade for Christ. You were a vice president of a ministry there at Campus Crusade for Christ.

Speaker 56:55

Yep, right? Yeah, yep, yep. And it but you see, it's God sanctifies us. I mean, he's the one that matures us over time. And one of the things I always tell people who are in the workforce, if you don't bring God in there with you, even as quiet as you want to be, if you don't recognize his presence, then all of the teaching that he wants you to do, wants to do for you, in that place where you're spending 40, 50, 60 hours a week, you miss. You only get discipled in the 10% of your time that you go to church or Bible study. That's a crazy leverage. You know, you you need to take advantage of the workplace. So, so um what what what happened in uh in in Crew was that I was able to go to try to find out how I could begin to do that in in this ministry setting. But God first had to fix me. Okay. Here I am coming out of an entrepreneur world, everything happens very rapidly, risk taking is pretty high, and then I move into this much, much larger, much more conservative, much slower operating thing. Um, and honestly, it took me years to get used to

Why Mission Organizations Stay Focused

Speaker 58:08

it.

Scott Allen 58:08

What uh, you know, you what led you to invite my colleague Darrow Miller to meet with the leadership of Campus Crusade for Christ? Because you were behind that, as I recall, Bob. Oh yeah. And that was a like I say, when that news came to us, I remember Darrow coming and talking to me about that. I was like, oh wow, that's amazing, Darrow. Think about the difference that it would mean for the world and for the Great Commission if an organization like Campus Crusade for Christ, a mission organization that uh could really expand their vision beyond just seeing people saved and basically discipled in spiritual, you know, kind of the spiritual uh disciplines, if you know, into kind of an integrated holistic biblical worldview. Think about the difference that would be. We're so excited. We prayed, you set up this meeting, we were so excited. But talk about that from your end, Bob. What first of all, how did you know Darrow, what led to that?

Speaker 59:01

Uh well, I had heard about Darrow uh mostly from my friend Della Adonovo, who was uh VP with me, he was in charge of all of Africa. Um, and what you said uh is wouldn't it be wonderful if a place like Crew could take on a larger perspective? And whereas I agree with that, and I spent years actually trying to get that to happen, and when I was a vice president, doing a lot of what I'm doing now, okay, I mean actually going through the scriptures and trying to understand, you know, what does it actually mean? I mean, I know a lot more than I do, and thankfully it was because of that time at Crewe. Uh, but the reason I left Crewe was because Crewe does evangelism. Okay. And my practical experience on that one was when I did a merger IPO of my first company. You know, I'm a young kid, um, and I'm going to a board meeting and I'm thinking this is a service company, they're doing a lot of government services, right? That's what this company did. And and I think it's time to do a graphics product, a little graphics product. Okay, this is graphics, was I mean, once again, it's commonplace now. Uh, but uh computer graphics was was didn't exist back then. And and I wrote up a proposal, I did a bunch of research, I brought it into the board. They really loved what I did, they really did, and I felt really affirmed. And but then they said, no, we're not going to do this. And the reason was because they were a service company, not a product company. And as a kid, I thought, I mean, a 35 or whatever it was, I thought, ah. But looking back on it, Campus Crusade is an evangelistic organization. In some sense, some part of the formal body of Christ needs to be out there with spears and arrows and guns and whatever they're doing to fight the warfare and to get people around. And if if if I diverted that singular purpose, I it might not be good in the whole. Okay. So I've had to get myself used to saying, okay, my goodness. Whereas I was a little upset because I wanted to, I was in a VP, I was in a good position. I mean, I'm I'm the advisor of the president. I mean, you can't get any better than that. And I couldn't get it to happen. And and as I look back on that, I think, oh, Bob, you know, wake up, listen to God, pay attention. That's not who crusade is, that's not who I want them to be. They are who I want them to be. You go be what I want you to be.

Scott Allen 1:01:34

I see. Yeah, okay.

Speaker 1:01:36

So that's and now in the middle of that, you can see, okay, Deladavo says, Do you think it's time to bring Darrow in? And I say, Oh yeah. You know, because I'm thinking this is this is a good meeting. And I, well, turns out I was wrong, right?

Speaker 3 1:01:51

Right.

Speaker 1:01:51

And it took me a few more years to admit that. Yeah. That's one of the reasons I mean.

Scott Allen 1:01:56

I remember Darrow coming back and feeling like it just didn't go well. They just didn't they didn't. It wasn't Darrow. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:02:03

You can tell them that again and again and again if you like.

Scott Allen 1:02:05

Yeah. But you know, at the same time, while I appreciate what you're saying, and I do have great respect for Crew. Um, really great respect. They had a big impact on my life. When I was in college, I was probably more connected to intervarsity, but uh but crew was very active on the campus that I was attending in Oregon. Um and I knew, you know, that it had really good it had really helped a lot of people come to faith and um you know begin to take steps, first steps as as Christians. But I want to go back to something you said earlier.

Justice, Worldview, And Grace

Scott Allen 1:02:36

You said uh I I love that phrase, we've made the the most important thing the only thing. Is that the way you put it? And uh uh just uh my experience with Campus Crusade for Christ here recently, back during the days of COVID and George Floyd, was that they got in trouble a little bit because they started becoming they started started platforming at their their gatherings uh people that were v very woke, you know, kind of evangelical woke and um it created quite a bit of pushback. They started speaking on issues of justice and and yet the way they were speaking on those uh issues of justice wasn't biblical. It was it was more uh Marxist, kind of cultural Marxist. And I think this is one of in my own observation, this is one of the downsides, uh uh and there's many, but one of the downsides of taking the most important thing, the gospel, the gospel of salvation in this case, uh, and making it the only thing, is you don't give yourself space to think biblically about things outside of that so that when these counterfeits like social justice come along, you can easily go for it because you just haven't expanded your faith to think about those things. And the there comes this very powerful idea from the culture, and you just embrace it. Now again, I'm not saying that crude did that. It just was an observation I had, like, oh, they've how how is it that a group like this that I respect is embracing some of these ideas? And it could be, again, I'm speculating, but it could be that, you know, they've they've they've really protected that most important thing, but they haven't allowed themselves to think critically about the bigger thing. I'd love your yeah, just reaction to that thought there.

Speaker 1:04:09

I can't actually speak to that because it was not engaged at the high levels when that was going on. I I heard about it like you did.

Speaker 3 1:04:16

Right.

Speaker 1:04:16

Um, so I I don't want to dispute that. And and I know a lot of donors left because of that. There was a lot of uh talk back and forth. Um, but I think the best I can do is to say that all of us are sinners and fall short of the glory of God.

Scott Allen 1:04:30

Right.

Speaker 1:04:30

And um all of us get hold of something else that we that we think I mean, injustice is not okay, right? It's just planning not okay. And God calls us to be justice and and to take care of the weak. Okay, so this social justice thing is is a part of of what we should be doing. And now the question is, well, what does that actually look like? How does that work? Uh if we do it this way, did we leave something behind? Do we should we do it, you know? So you get all of those different conversations. I'm sure they had those conversations, okay? I mean, I I certainly know the guys that were in those conversations. And you know, I I don't know, uh like I said, we're all sinners. I mean, all I can do is is to to sit back and say, Oh, I'm sorry. Um yes, somebody articulated well on this side of something or other, and and somebody said, Okay, anyway, and you know, I mean, who knows?

Scott Allen 1:05:28

But I I do I do know from experience in other areas and with other people and groups that if you have a passion for the gospel but you don't allow yourself, and often it's justified this way that if we allow ourselves as Christians to kind of remove our sole priority and focus on the gospel of salvation and and seeing people saved, then we'll get distracted, we'll be less effective, we'll lose our way, we'll become secular, whatever it is. We we we will be distracted. So we've got to keep this singular focus. And while I appreciate that, when you do that, you often don't allow yourself to actually have a biblical worldview because that's a bigger thing, you know, than just a message of salvation. It's it's a whole way of thinking about the whole world and everything in it, including things like justice. And if you don't allow yourself to do that, then you are going to be a prime target for false ideas coming in, often using biblical words like justice. You know, but you just haven't allowed yourself to think about it.

Speaker 1:06:32

One of the things you have to consider here uh is that you're not just talking about individuals, you're talking about a company.

Scott Allen 1:06:38

Right.

Speaker 1:06:38

A large organization that somebody is running, a bunch of people are running. And um it's it's one thing for for an individual to have a fairly wide view of all the things that they want that they need to look at. And and I do think that it's valuable for an organization to have in its orb. You know, ask me any question, think about, you know, no proposal is dumb, no question is dumb. So you you you actually need that. And sometimes when you're trying to get an organization to survive, you forget some of those things. Okay. One of the great difficulties of churches, nonprofits, is that when the organization gets big enough, there are some people who are responsible for a lot causing that to exist, to continue to exist. Okay? When it's smaller, everybody's kind of doing pieces of it. But there comes a point somewhere where it becomes an institution, and somebody's job is to make that institution run and get fed. And that's when you begin to get to a place where you're thinking, or you may think in improperly. I mean, it's it's not saying you you do, okay? It's just hard. And the bigger it gets, the harder it gets. You know, and then you have little divisions in the middle of the, you know, you got this department and that department and that department, and and one of them is HR, you know, because that always happens these days. Well, that that that then can become devoid of care. And then one of them is the is the the profit line guys, and that can become devoid of of the whole picture of the company doing many things. So it's um it's where grace comes in. I mean, I as a as an individual, I mean, I can't do anything about any corporation in in the United States or anywhere else. Um, but as I look at things that don't go well, especially things that I'm connected to, um, I still have to have grace somehow. And say, okay. You know, I I and at some point you say, I can't, I can't actually go along with this. And there were a number of people that left crew because of that. You know, they they said, okay, this this is not okay with me. So there was a whole bunch of crowd that thought differently, you know. Um, but not everybody. I mean, it's still there, it's still working, it's come back. You know, so it's it's just when you look through the Old Testament and you ask yourself, how many good kings were there? And you come up with a relatively small number compared to all of them, and yet this is God's people. You know, you think, whoa, I guess when you when you when you throw humans at it, it just doesn't all work right.

Scott Allen 1:09:28

Well, you're completely correct. That there are crew is a wonderful mission, and there's godly people that are still there. You know one of them, I know one of them. John Beckett is a part of the board of directors. Oh, yeah, yeah. And John wrote, let me just read what he wrote about your book, The Intersection of Faith, Life and Work. Um He says, For decades now I've witnessed the near non existence of the practical intersection between faith and work. The sacred secular divide is pervasive, rending work forever inferior. The result is confusion and ineffectiveness as we try to straddle these two disconnected worlds. The call to return to God's design is desperately needed, a message that can transform communities, cities, and nations. The book that you hold in your hand is a compact, memorable, and rich book in wisdom, properly applied, it will unlock a wonderful new freedom to be all that God intended you to be personally and for your work. What a great endorsement. And uh I love John Beckett. I know you do too. And I have great hope for groups like Campus Crusade for Christ because he's working hard and he's got his shoulder to the plow as a businessman and also somebody who's deeply involved and many others, you know. Right. Oh yeah. So many others. And so, anyways. Luke, as we wrap up, what questions do you have? We need to w wrap up here, but uh this has been really great, Bob. I really appreciate all your wisdom.

Speaker 1:10:51

Pleasure, really. Yeah. It's just always exciting to talk about this. Yeah, it is. Hours and hours and hours.

Practicing God’s Presence Every Day

Luke Allen 1:10:59

It's an endless, yeah, endless discussion because there's always so much to learn. It's uh on an individual level, the applications are endless, you know. In theory, it's relatively simple to understand. It's it's applying it that's hard. And uh that's where I often struggle, is in my individual life with my relationships, with the gifts God's given me, spiritual gifts and other gifts. How do I apply this into my life? So it's just it's fun to hear stories about other people who have figured out ways to do that well. Um this was great. I don't exactly have a wrap-up question as much as just a reflection on what you guys have been talking about here, and I just think uh we've talked a lot about gifts today. And um uh figuring out uh where God's gifted you really helps because that's where you can become a specialist. I'm always thinking sports analogies, and when you guys are talking about how Christians sometimes make the main thing the only thing, I just go to basketball. And I'm like, if you only made shooting your one thing, because scoring points is what wins games, you're not gonna be a good basketball player. Because if you can't even dribble well, then someone's just gonna take the ball from you every time you think you're gonna get a shot off, you know. Right. And if you can't play defense, you're not a good basketball player. If you can't rebound, you know. So we it's uh with basketball, every sport, but I played basketball, it's all about the basics. You have to get the basics down over and over and over again. And then once you do that, you can become a specialist. So you can become a three-point specialist or a rebounder or something, but you gotta stick with the basics first.

Scott Allen 1:12:21

And um and it's no good, Luke, in in that example of saying, you know, shooting is more important than dribbling, you know, because we always want to do that funny.

Luke Allen 1:12:28

It's a funny discussion, yeah.

Scott Allen 1:12:30

Yeah. Yeah. This is more important than that, you know. Like if you really had to boil it down to the one thing that's the most important, you know, and of course, I get that, I get where people are coming from, but when you apply it like you using your basketball analogy, it kind of falls apart, doesn't it?

Speaker 1:12:44

Right. And that's where uh I think analogies are particularly useful. Uh I mean I started uh in in this conversation with God's presence, I think, because I think I I think it is a key, okay? And I think part of the confusion is, well, what does that look like? I mean, how how is it that I I don't know, have have God present with me all the time. Well, if I look at the scriptures, he says he's here, okay? So he's he must not be the problem. I must be the problem. Okay, so so what is it about that? Okay, so when I'm a kid and Christmas is coming, you know, and even the non-religious part of this, what am I looking for? I'm looking for what am I gonna get? What are the gifts? You know, is it gonna be the trainstead? Is it gonna be the bicycle? What is it, you know, am I gonna get this, you know, and and and the weeks before Christmas, there's an anticipation. I mean, it's like the presence of Christmas is with you the whole time because you're anticipating, you're you're waiting. When you're dating, the same thing happens with the girl, with the guy. You know, it's not like you forget that you're just beginning to think you love somebody. That thought is with you rather continually, right? And you look for them. Where can I find them? Where are they gonna be? Can I meet them over here? Well, having God present with you is a lot like that. I mean, to understand that God actually does love me. And and so I just my my job is to want to be with him. That's that I I don't have to worry about whether he loves me. I know that. I just don't feel it a lot of times because it's funny, it's an odd thing, right? Who is God and how does that work and where is the spirit? I mean, you get all of that rather unknown stuff. But if if I'm just trying to say, okay, there's a God in heaven, and and I and I've had a few answered prayers, and when I pray, I don't go see if he's home, I just pray. You know, so if I bring that kind of thought when I see a tree and I wonder how it grows, or I or I walk through, or walk past um uh a driveway and it's made of blacktop, and it's got a little crack in it. And I look at it and I think, there's a there's a plant growing out of that thing. You know, I can't grow out of that. And I go over to the plant, and it's not like it's uh an iron rod, it's a little flimsy thing. How did it come up out of that? You know? And it's I mean, those things, there, those things are marvelous, really. So if you begin to pay attention to the marvels around you, that helps. So anyway, I just wanted to leave the listeners with this idea of simple. You know, think about anticipation with Christmas, think about dating, uh, think about uh marvelous things that you see all around you. Uh it's not hard to fill your thoughts with, well, this God can be present with me all the time. It's and I need to make that happen.

Scott Allen 1:15:40

Amen. Well, the book again is the intersection, faith, work, and life, an introduction to God's design for integrated living. The author is Dr. uh Bob Varney, our guest today. And Bob, it's just uh again been such a joy and privilege. Just I can tell uh just endless wisdom here that we could uh we could glean from you. We'd probably like to have you back, Luke. I'm guessing. Um, so we'll we'll we'll circle back at some point here and uh and have you back. In the meantime, just want to encourage all of our listeners to take advantage of Bob's wisdom through this book. You can get it on Amazon. And um, Bob, any final words? Anything about your ministry that people can connect to or how they might connect to you?

Speaker 1:16:17

Check our website, check our podcast, we do some of those as well. Yep. Uh we're at um citiesprojectglobal.com.

Scott Allen 1:16:26

Citiesprojectglobal.com. Okay.

Speaker 1:16:28

Yeah, you can find us there, and um all sorts of resources available for your enjoyment.

Scott Allen 1:16:34

Great. We'll keep up the good work, Bob, and um again, thanks for the time today. It's been a blessing.

Speaker 1:16:39

Scott, thank you for inviting me here. It was great.

Scott Allen 1:16:42

God bless.