Why Christians Keep Getting Immigration Wrong | Kelly Kullberg

Episode Summary:

"Why do so many push for open borders?"

Our guest's answer: "Power. Not love. Not justice. Power. Not compassion. Not empathy. Power."

Immigration is one of the most controversial issues of our time. In this episode, Kelly Monroe Kullberg, author, speaker, and co-founder of the American Association of Evangelicals, joins Scott and Luke Allen to move beyond political talking points and ask a more important question: What does the Bible actually teach about immigration?

In this episode:

• The biblical purpose of nations and borders
• The dignity of every human being and caring for the foreigner
• Common misconceptions about immigration and border security
• Why open borders could lead to the next Tower of Babel
• How Christians can pursue both truth and compassion
• Practical ways Christians can engage one of today's most important issues

If you've ever wondered how to think biblically about immigration, this conversation will challenge assumptions on every side of the debate.

Who is the Disciple Nations Alliance (DNA)? Since 1997, DNA’s mission has been to equip followers of Jesus around the globe with a biblical worldview, empowering them to build flourishing families, communities, and nations. 👉 https://disciplenations.org/

🎙️Featured Guest: 

Kelly Monroe Kullberg is the founder of the Veritas Forum and editor of the Boston Globe bestseller Finding God at Harvard: Spiritual Journeys of Thinking Christians. Since founding the first Veritas Forum at Harvard in 1992, she has traveled across the country helping start Veritas Forums in dozens of universities. For many years she also served as chaplain to the Harvard Graduate School Christian Fellowship.

She is now director of project development for the Veritas Forum and spokesperson for the new American Association of Evangelicals. She served as a missionary in seven countries and is a passionate advocate for advancing the Christian Gospel to go forward in every nation.

📌 Recommended Resources:  

     👉 Wise Welcome Book: Immigration | American Association of Evangelicals - Wise Welcome  

     👉 Book: The Immigration Crisis: Immigrants, Aliens, and the Bible

     👉 American Association of Evangelicals 

     👉 Recommended Episode: Open Borders, Criminal Justice, & Seeking Shalom | Mark Moland

     👉 Recommended Book: Shepherds for Sale

     👉 Recommended Book: Leadership and The Sin of Empathy

     👉 Kelly’s Most Popular Book: Finding God at Harvard

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📩 Ask us anything: info@disciplenations.org 

Episode Webpage

Transcript

Scott Allen 0:03

Unprecedented numbers of people are being let into our country, facilitated by our governments. Why? There's people that clearly have an interest in this. Why?

Kelly Kullberg 0:12

Power, not love, not justice, power, not compassion, not empathy, power. The left wants what they, in their own words, refer to as a permanent progressive majority, and that means global control, and that means power. Truly a new tower of Babel. And of course, add AI on top of that and surveillance and digital ID, and it becomes a very disturbed kind of world. So I'm continued to say mass migration is not loving, it is political, it's about power, and it uses human beings as pawns in a war of social engineering. DHS Secretary Mark Wayne Mullen reported that they have found, I think it was 144,000 missing children in America. And as a former missionary, I take offense at what they're doing to the communities I served in Central and South America and in American cities. I mean, in the process, this is destroying diverse and unique cultures, and we could end up with a very sick monoculture. So I'd just say let's pivot from complicit, passive, and foolish niceness to true kindness of biblical truth. God's truth is true love. Start loving a little harder and smarter.

Why Immigration Divides Christians

Luke Allen 1:41

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Ideas Have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. As Christians, we know that our mission is to spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. However, our mission, the Great Co-Mission, also involves working to transform our cultures so that they increasingly reflect the truth, goodness, and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected this second part of her mission, and today many Christians are having little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God. I know that intro gets repetitive sometimes, but it is I think it's such a great intro. It it really encapsulates. You know, we wrote it, so you know, it's perfect. But um, no, I I think that's a perfect intro intro for today's episode, which is on the subject of immigration. I know this is a very difficult subject to talk about in today's world just because it's so hot, uh, especially, I mean, everywhere, but in Christian circles as well. It's something that divides uh close brothers. Um, but it's so important to talk about from a biblical perspective. So today's guest uh joined us and is truly an expert on the topic. I'm so glad that we were able to get Kelly Kohlberg here on the show. But Dad, I'll let her or you introduce her real quick uh before we give a quick summary also of the episode. Absolutely. Thanks, Luke.

Scott Allen 3:05

Yeah. Uh Kelly Mineral Kohlberg is uh she's our guest today, and she is the general secretary and the co-founder of the American Association of Evangelicals. That is a network of evangelical Christian leaders who are committed to advancing biblical truth and Christian engagement in public life. Um Kelly was also the founder of the Veritas Forum. Uh that began at Harvard University back in 1992 and has since expanded to hundreds of universities around the world. Kelly is an author, a speaker, and a cultural commentator. Uh, she is probably best known for her book Finding God at Harvard, excellent book that came out several years ago. It chronicles the faith journey of many prominent scholars and professors at Harvard University. Uh Kelly continues to speak and write on the intersection of faith, culture, education, and public life, and has a particular um expertise in the topic that we're going to be talking about today, uh, which is immigration. And I would just add, I uh Kelly and I have known each other for a long time, way back uh when we were just starting at Food for the Hungry back in the uh in the uh late 90s, early 2000s. Uh she was uh quite connected to Christian relief and development to food for the hungry and part of a friend a friend group there that uh we uh enjoyed uh backpacking and doing things like that together. So I have a personal connection to Kelly uh along with a lot of other people in those days of Food for the Hungry. Uh but it's been kind of fun to just watch how God has really used her over the years.

Luke Allen 4:38

So I didn't know that. That's cool. Yep.

Scott Allen 4:41

Early days of Food for the Hungry, yep.

Luke Allen 4:44

Yeah, yeah, I really enjoyed this episode. That that I think this is such an important topic, and it's one that I am guilty of this as well. Uh, as Christians, we jump to conclusions in. We do that a lot in today's world because we just have a difficult time paying attention to anything for more than 10 minutes. Yeah. But this subject, as Christians, we always just want to be like, let's be loving, let's be compassionate, which is absolutely right. That is what we are called to do, but we have to remember what those two words mean. Love is tied to truth, it's tied to wisdom, it's tied to prudence. Compassion's the same way. You cannot be compassionate if you're not directing someone towards God's good design for them. So we need to make sure we're starting by defining those words properly, and then as such, digging into these topics. You know, with humility comes wisdom. Be humble, be ready to search, be a student. And this is a difficult topic. So it's it's definitely a deep dive, um, which you'll hear on today's episode. And then I hope all of you guys will go in even more depth after this. I'm planning on doing that myself uh because it's complex. Uh, but as Christians, we're not called to avoid the complex, we're called to dig into them. Uh, we're called to be truth seekers. So I hope you guys enjoyed today's episode. It was fascinating, eye-opening, mind-blowing. And uh, without further ado, let's hop into it.

Meet Kelly Kohlberg

Scott Allen 5:57

Well, Kelly, it's just such a wonderful privilege for us to have you on the podcast. Thanks for joining us.

Kelly Kullberg 6:03

Thanks so much for having me.

Scott Allen 6:05

Yeah, Kelly, I have been really looking forward to this conversation with you. This is such an important topic. It continues to dominate headlines even as we're speaking right now, both in the United States and Europe. Uh, this topic of immigration, it's one that's um divided um the culture. It's divided the church, including the evangelical church. I know, Kelly, I think you you've been a real um leader and spokesperson uh on this subject. I think, if I'm not mistaken, you first jumped into this um uh several years ago. I'm I'm thinking of that evangelical initiative that began some time ago. I think it was in association with the National Association of Evangelicals, the Evangelical Immigration Roundtable that was kind of promoting um uh issues of immigration within the church, world relief. And you started uh challenging that, if I'm not mistaken. And that I that's in my own mind, that's where it first went back to um kind of under the banner of uh the American Association of Evangelicals. But um I I guess the first question, Kelly, is just what first led you to this study of immigration, this issue of immigration from a biblical worldview perspective.

Mission Work And The Border Reality

Kelly Kullberg 7:21

Well, thank you, Scott, for having me. And I I came to Faith in Christ when I was a teenager and became interested in Bible study and apologetics. I later went much later went off to grad school and uh wrote the book Finding God at Harvard with a lot of folks and their testimonies. Um, I began the Veritas Forum there to explore hard questions in relation to the gospel and to Jesus for whom Harvard was founded a long time ago, and um became a chaplain with the Harvard Graduate Christian Fellowship in the different uh grad schools there for a decade. And in the process of doing that, we would go off on summer mission trips. And um, I became a short-term missionary in about six countries, mainly in Central and South America. And friends and I wanted to share the gospel with um the very poor in very practical ways and see the Great Commission as the gospel for the flourishing of every nation, a lot like your work with DNA. And um, in Central America, I realized that open borders to North America, to the United States, were sort of a a magnet, um, especially under later under Obama and Biden, um, a magnet that that really harms people on both sides of the borders, human trafficking, uh, drugs, um, and crime and a lot of chaos that we're seeing now. And um, you know, I saw family members abandoned by the young men and children in their family coming north, but then towns given over to drugs and gangs. And I became concerned about my own culture in America really in 2008, and um the beginning of the Obama years and mass migration, and eventually realized that that there were anti-Christian billionaires like George Soros, opens his Open Society Foundation, and others funding what they call faith or evangelical mascots. They even call it our rent and evangelical model of social change. Um, like Sojourners, Jim Wallace, like faith in public life, like Richard Sizek, who was at the National Association of Evangelicals long ago. And likely this the goal of the funders was you know, cherry-pick a few Bible verses, not the whole council of scripture, um, but and likely do that to divide the Republican vote. And also they were funding grant huge grants for mass migration. And then more came from Ford, Hewlett, Rockefeller, etc. And then, of course, Doge has made very clear that a lot of this came through our tax dollars through the US State Department and USAID. So I wrote the foreword of our little book that's free online, um, Wise Welcome. And I wrote it from the perspective of a missionary, really, who was seeing the damage done on both sides of the borders. Um, and it grieved me to see Christian nonprofits like World Relief, that's part of the National Association of Evangelicals, the NAE, um uh become to kind of change their mission and become less about the gospel for nations and more about mass migration into American cities. I don't know that they knew what they had been pulled into, um, but it did not seem to be about love as much as power. So, in fact, they had to sign um an agreement to not share the gospel if taking federal money. So um, you know, Christian refugees were often rejected, while many others were imported. Um, and so when the NAE capitulated to money on the left, Renz and I began American Association of Evangelicals just to try to uh be straight about the Christ-centered gospel and biblical wisdom on big issues by which nations flourish. Megan Basham went on to explore this in this kind of dark money problem in Shepherds for Sale, became a bestseller. And Professor James Hoffmeyer at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School wrote a book called The Immigration Crisis, which we shortened uh and made free online as Wise Welcome, and also Sabia Bienvenida in Spanish as well. These are at AmericaneEvangelicals.org backslash immigration. You're welcome to download them. There are also short videos by Dr. Hoffmeyer, who's a theologian, and grew up as a refugee in Egypt himself.

Scott Allen 12:47

Wow, Kelly, there was a lot there. And so am I correct then that the American Association of Evangelicals, of which you helped to found and are the Secretary General of, came about in large part, perhaps, in reaction to the National Association of Evangelicals, the older historic association, um really jumping on board with this kind of globalist agenda, open borders agenda, as you talked about, um money coming from people like Soros. Um, it's an agenda that I think we wanted I want to talk about further here in a in a follow-up question, because I think it's so critical to understand any any kind of discussion on immigration has to be uh understood in the context of what's actually happening right now in our cultures. But but is that correct? Was it kind of in response to a lot of that that that American Association of Evangelicals was founded on this issue of immigration in particular?

Speaker 3 13:42

Not per well, uh that was one of the issues, but the NAE also got involved in other so-called progressive issues as well. Right, right. And we a group of evangelical friends quietly, privately wrote the NAE. Um I think I'm right in saying all the way back to like 2012, and a detailed letter. Did you did you need the million dollars from the Hewlett Foundation uh to quietly place pro-abortion speakers at in evangelical events? Did we get that right or wrong? Um, and it was used Hewlett uses pass-throughs, so it's not always a direct grant, but but that sort of thing was happening, and we never did get a response to our questions. Um so finally it just became, you know, uh, it seemed kind of intractable, and we needed to do something to really just try to be faithful in our generation. So we have this with these wonderful Gideon's army, faithful remnant in different different institutions and and uh denominations and so forth.

Scott Allen 14:56

Well, I'm so glad you did, Kelly. And just for our listeners who may not be familiar with the Hewlett Foundation, um, it's um a massive funding foundation for the far left progressive side of the equation. I think it's the largest funder of Planned Parenthood in the world. Um and so, yeah, it's alarming when it begins to fund evangelical organizations like the NAE, even if it's indirectly.

Speaker 3 15:19

Um, I believe uh I'd have to check, but I think Christianity today is now also funded by the Hewlett Foundation.

Scott Allen 15:26

It's just heartbreaking to me to see the infiltration. And uh certainly it's happening around this issue of immigration in a big way. That needs to be understood.

What Wise Welcome Means

Scott Allen 15:35

But let's go back to the book that you mentioned earlier, the book that came out of your studies and your uh your work with um uh the uh person at Trinity, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, Wise Welcome. Talk about that title a little bit. What do you mean uh by using that phrase wise welcome in relationship to immigration, Kelly?

Speaker 3 15:54

Yes, again, the lead author is James Hofmeier. And by what the phrase wise welcome, well, as you said, Scott, we're seeing in the news each day the results of unvetted or foolish mass migration. And I'll go into that a little later, I think. But because God loves us all, his book, The Bible, teaches wisdom for human and cultural flourishing, um, and wisdom yields peace. And most of our own ancestors who came to America took oaths of citizenship and sacrifice to build families and communities and a great nation. And many with the same good intentions are applying now to come legally. And I think, and we all should think they they should be first in line. And um, we're to maintain walls with doors and and not not closed borders, not open borders, um, but wisdom. And in scripture, healthy national boundaries are viewed as a sign of God's blessing. God teaches us discernment or wisdom, wise welcome, in in the shaping of lives, of families, of cultures, of nations. I think of it as like creating a beautiful garden, which involves a lot of hard work and wisdom and vision and planting and pruning and nurturing. Um, the great Catholic theologian Thomas Aquinas viewed citizenship and immigration this way, looked at discernment and the intention of the heart of the person coming. And the, of course, the Protestant Reformations, Martin Luther agreed and saw the state as a divinely instituted force of order set up to counter evil and counter harm and protect its, protect citizens. Uh, so this idea of borders and nations is all throughout scripture. And um, my concern, what we see so often now from James Talerico on, is the cherry picking of scripture, not for love, not for truth, but for political power. And they are taking advantage of well-meaning Christians who don't know their Bibles very well. And I really um that's why we did wise welcome, just to say, let's do an actual Bible study. Let's go back to the whole council of scripture. And, you know, in the Great Commission, Jesus said uh we're commissioned to go to make disciples, teaching them everything he taught us. So that's the whole council of scripture, and uh, that's what I'm interested in continuing to explore with folks.

Scott Allen 18:48

Kelly, it seems like a lot of evangelicals, when you bring up the issue of of immigration, um, the emphasis is on and Bible verses that speak to um the compassion, the care, the concern that we should have for immigrants. Um so the emphasis is put on that side of the equation. What isn't talked about are things that you just mentioned uh when you talked about wise welcome, the upholding of just immigration laws, borders, um things like carefully vetting immigrants, things like assimilation. Um, those things are never, it seems like talked about. It's just the compassionate caring side. Um how does the Bible balance those two things, Kelly? Do you think? How would you describe that?

Speaker 3 19:34

Well, I think that it's correct that the Bible, the Christian faith and the Bible uniquely uplift all people. Uh, we're we're made in God's image with great value. And regarding immigration, God does not look at race, but at the heart, the intention of the heart of the person traveling. And the Bible teaches moral law, and as I mentioned, Romans 13, teaching governments to protect uh moral law, sound law, and to punish lawlessness. So I think what you often see, Scott, and we all do, is again, I use the word cherry picking, but why are well-funded faith mascots talking so much about compassion um for some, but but not for Lake and Riley and hundreds of girls who've been raped, maybe thousands, I don't know, uh the hundred thousand a year dying of fentanyl that's coming across our open borders. You know, are they are they concerned about Henry Nowak, who was viciously murdered last week in England? Are they concerned about the attempted beheading of a man in Northern Ireland this week? Uh, why are they so quiet about certain cultures and certain and and why is it such selective um empathy and what some call Ali Bestrucki calls toxic empathy? And what the um recent book, Gad Sad's book, suicidal empathy, how is that loving to steal the the tradition, the faith, the culture, the people um of some nations but not others? Where where are these ministers talking about the absolute slaughter of Christians in Nigeria that's gone on for, I don't know if it's been you would know more, but at least a decade where people are being it's a really good point, Kelly.

Scott Allen 21:44

The compassion you you know is emphasized, but it's very selective. You're right. It's it's uh it it there's huge blind spots to it. The one that breaks my heart the most is um during the Biden administration when somewhere between 10 and 20 million Unvetted uh people were let into the country just wide open. Um, thousands of young ladies were trafficked, sexually trafficked in that. Uh nobody knows exactly how many. There just weren't records. But I don't hear, again, any compassion, very little compassion or concern even for those people that are victims. Uh so yeah, you're right. It's a highly selective. Yeah.

Speaker 3 22:25

Today uh Secretary of DHS Secretary Mark Wayne Mullen reported that they have found this as of this week, I think it was 144,000 missing children in America who were trafficked trafficked across and so that's why I say I this is not taxpayer, by the way.

Scott Allen 22:46

So I feel like dirty and complicit in this.

Speaker 3 22:49

Right. And they've yet to find approximately 200,000. I could get you the exact numbers, what they who they these are children, these are people's children, right? And where are they where are they being hidden in sanctuary cities? So we'll get to that. But a biblical view of an actual biblical view of scripture is the is the most loving um um wisdom for human flourishing, and we have got to look at the whole council in scripture. So, for example, Paul in Acts 17 explains that the Lord placed us in particular times, families, and nations with boundaries, why that we would all seek after and find the Lord. Uh, Leviticus 19 is a beautiful passage. The Lord commands us to treat the well-meaning foreigner. There's a particular Hebrew word there that we'll get into, the gare. For you yourselves were once aliens in Egypt. You were the well-meaning, come as a convert and blessing, um, uh, come with legal permission, in that case from the Pharaoh, um, when Joseph introduced his his brothers to into Egypt to save them, um, that they were treated well and kindly because they came as the gare, as the blessing. Um, but God in the Bible laments and even judges foolish immigration. So, for example, in Deuteronomy, God judges the moving of a boundary stone. Um, and that's one way the Lord reveals his care for widows and orphans and the rights of all is to forbid an aggressor from coveting and stealing personal property or ancestral and national property. In Deuteronomy 28, 43, he says, the foreigners who reside among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. In Isaiah 1:7, God laments over Israel and sees open borders as a curse. He says, Your country is desolate, your cities burn with fire, your fields are being stripped by foreigners. The czar is an enemy, that's the word, right before you, laid waste as when overthrown by strangers. Nehemiah 2.17. Then I said to them, You see the trouble we are in. This is Nehemiah talking, Jerusalem lies in ruins, and its gates have been burned with fire. Come, let us rebuild the wall of Jerusalem, and we will no longer be in disgrace. And King Artaxerxes gives Nehemiah permission and resources. You know, the Ten Commandments are clear about private property and not coveting or stealing what belongs to others. Um, in Revelation, we see kings and people of every tribe and tongue worshiping God, not one world order, not Tower of Babel 2.0, but unique cultures and diversity. Why? Because there have been boundaries and borders and people protecting them. So I can get into their three kinds of immigrants in scripture if that's of interest to you.

Summer Matching Challenge

Luke Allen 26:18

Hi, friends. I wanted to invite you to help the Disciple Nations Alliance meet our $50,000 summer matching challenge. Many of you are listening to this podcast because you care about a biblical worldview, about discipling the nations, and helping Christians live faithfully in every area of life. And that's exactly what the DNA exists to do. Last year, an independent impact study confirmed what we have been hearing again and again from people around the world. The DNA's training is helping Christians break free from a compartmentalized faith to applying biblical truths to their family, work, church, community, and culture. When Christians embrace a biblical worldview, they live differently. And when believers live differently, that transformation ripples outward. Now through August 15th, your gift can help us meet this $50,000 challenge and multiply this impact. To give, just tap the link in the show notes that says matching challenge. And thank you so much for standing with us here at the Disciple Nations Alliance.

Nations Versus Empires In Scripture

Scott Allen 27:18

Oh, yeah, no, we definitely want to go there, but I just want to underscore your comment right there, Kelly, about nations. Um this we're the Disciple Nations Alliance. This is a subject that to me is a passion, um, just because um it's it's a it's a it's a deep biblical theme. Uh God established families and he established nations, nations with territory, with common culture, common law, common worship. Um and the Bible pits nations against empires like the Babylonian Empire, the Persian Empire. Uh Empire, this idea of a nation trying to take over other nations and expand its influence globally is always looked down upon as a demonic thing. And uh the biblical idea of nations is a good thing, the first nation, in a sense, being the nation of Israel. Um, and uh, you know, so we see nations all the way through the scripture from Genesis 12, when God raises up Abraham and promises to make him into a great nation, a nation that will bless other nations, by the way. That's God's intention, um, all the way through Jesus and the Great Commission, uh, go and make disciples of all nations, um, and all the way through Revelation, where we see the ingathering of the nations in the New Jerusalem, as you were saying. So nations are key. The the globalist idea is really this kind of Babel, Babylonian, satanic idea, you know. And so that that that really has to be understood. God, and I think when it comes to um current kind of uh current day events, what you don't want to do is encourage everyone, let's say they're like you were mentioning earlier, Guatemala, a very impoverished, broken country. You don't want all of those people to pick up and leave and come to a more prosperous country because that just uh you know exacerbates the problem for those left behind in Guatemala. The biblical idea is that people would stay and develop their own countries. And certainly we can go and help them. Let's go and help Guatemala or Rwanda or wherever Somalia develop. But let's not just say, hey, why don't you all leave Somalia and come to the United States? That's not a biblical approach to or a compassionate approach. So I just want to underscore what you were saying there, Kelly.

Three Biblical Categories Of Immigrants

Scott Allen 29:28

I do want to get into the distinction because you've done really a help, this is so helpful, I think, for Christians to understand that when the word the Bible talks about immigrants, uh, we we tend to think of it as one thing, but you've said, no, there's there's a distinction there, and you quoted some verses already. Uh, talk about the three distinctions, the the the actual Hebrew words and what they mean, and then how you could overlay that onto our current events. Like, how would we see the those three categories in present-day United States, for example?

Speaker 3 29:59

Sure. Well, the the Hebrew Bible, the Bible in its Old Testament language of Hebrew, distinguishes between three categories of foreign persons, and the discernment is about intention and qualifications. So the the first word is the gare, G-E-R. And again, we get into this in Wise Welcome, the Bible on immigration. Um, and maybe you could put that link in um the chat later.

Speaker 2 30:29

I sure will.

Speaker 3 30:30

Thank you. The Gare is an alien who entered Israel by invitation with permission, follow following legal procedures to obtain recognized standing as a what's called a resident alien. The hope was that aliens or sojourners, sometimes they're referred to as would embrace the faith as converts. The gear was welcomed into the faith and culture of Israel and treated equally as residents. So maybe think of Ruth. Uh, here's a young Moabite widow who's loyal to her mother-in-law Naomi, and said, Your people will be my people, your God, my God.

Scott Allen 31:15

And she was not, and she was not Jewish, she was from Moab. And she was that's but she became, yeah, she became an immigrant, but she became an immigrant who assimilated, let's say, in the sense that she changed the worship, her worship, to the worship of the living God of Israel.

Speaker 3 31:29

Absolutely. She was a convert to Judaism, she became a blessing, and then so much so uh to tell you how much God's heart is is for all of us, um, Ruth married Boaz and became, they became forebears of Jesus. So in Matthew 1, in Matthew 1, it mentions Ruth, a young Moabite woman who marries into the messianic line, or Rahab, who helped, you know, a prostitute who helped the Hebrew spies, believed in God and remained as a blessing and a convert. Genesis 47, we see Joseph's brothers requesting permission of Pharaoh to live in Egypt and were given work to do. Um, and that's where God later says, as the Jewish people were enslaved, God says, Don't you abuse the gare. So the gare is the lawful person who comes as a convert and blessing. And we're to show hospitality to that person, um, to those people. Um, and they're too required to respect our laws, customs, and culture. They are not to bring their own laws, customs and culture necessarily, not their own laws. Nothing should uh supersede biblical and in the case of America, constitutional law.

Scott Allen 32:54

Okay, so super helpful, Kelly. There, Gare is the, let's say, the legal immigrant who assimilates. Um I mean, it w that would be the equivalent today of somebody who comes in legally and then uh makes a, you know, there's an effort to assimilate and not to impose their home culture upon the the new nations, let's say. Right. So let's go on from there to the the next category from what's the next one? Yeah.

Speaker 3 33:18

Uh the NACAR, N-E-K-H-A-R. NACAR is a foreign person passing through, perhaps you know, now we might like for business or for study.

Scott Allen 33:29

Tourism. Tourism.

Speaker 3 33:30

Tourism. And okay yes. And so that person has also good intentions, right? Um, and they're not to, but they're not to receive social benefits or citizenship. Uh, it's a temporary visitor to be treated, you know, respectfully um while they're here.

Speaker 2 33:50

Yep.

Speaker 3 33:50

And then there's a third category called the czar, Z A R, who does not have good intentions. Um, and to my surprise, I thought, okay, this would be what, an invading army, or well, yes, that's but it's according to Dr. Hoffmeier, the czar is also a squatter um who does not come legally as a uh blessing, um, but they could be um in a way stealing whether it's it's uh not not being willing to work and just living off of welfare benefits or an invading army um or you know, stealing actual stealing property, etc., or an invading army. Um when the Babylonians were surrounding Jerusalem, the word czar is used and they are to be rejected at the border. Um and so the prophets warned people um and saw as a sign of judgment, even a curse, um this unvetted, foolish immigration, which the religious left never talks about. One they're they're funded to um cherry pick, uh I was a stranger and you welcomed me, that kind of a verse, as if these three categories that scripture is very clear about was one category of stranger. Right, yeah, which is not not the case.

Scott Allen 35:23

Well, that distinction is really helpful because um, yeah, I I'm thinking of uh what's the the czar? This is the the the immigrant who the Bible speaks to me a lot about this, the the person, the foreigner who comes in and yet is worshiping the pagan, the pagan gods. And there's often warnings about that because the warnings uh are that they will corrupt you, that you know, they will damage the culture, the worship of Israel, right? Because their intention isn't to integrate or to assimilate, it's to actually do the opposite. They're gonna they're gonna force, in a sense, or promote the worship of their pagan gods here in Israel. And the Bible speaks uh clearly uh in a warning kind of way against these types of uh of uh aliens, if you will. Am I correct on that, Kelly?

Speaker 3 36:13

You are all throughout, all throughout the Old Testament. I mean, it's look at the the kings and the the prophets and um, you know, there are several good kings, and what did they do? Like Josiah, well, he took down the asheropoles and burned um pagan uh pagan altars and so forth, and to say, no, this is this is not our story, this is not who we are as people.

Scott Allen 36:41

Yeah, so I think if you laid that onto our current situation today, uh you know, the one that comes to my mind most clearly are immigrants from Islamic countries who are very religiously Islamic, let's say they're in uh London or England, you see it in particular ways in Europe today, but also now in the United States. And they're they're they have no intention of assimilating to American law culture, which is rooted in Judeo-Christian theism. They want to actually have separate laws, right? They want to have their Sharia law, they want to have, they want to impose their religious worldview essentially on the home country that's hosting them. Um, that would be an example of the czar that you're talking about in kind of current-day situation, right?

Speaker 3 37:22

What Sharia law does not allow them to submit to any other law. They sharia is the law, and there are doctrines in Islam that require them to migrate to um advance Islam, right? Like the doctrine of of Hijra and with methods like taqiya, which is essentially lying in order to gain more power in foreign nations. It's a totalitarian worldview. It has a it has a eschatology of victory. And wouldn't it be nice if Christians who have who should have an eschatology of victory, not for domination, but for love of the entire world?

Scott Allen 38:08

Yeah, so uh again, there are certainly Muslim immigrants who would fit into the category of people who want to come here legally and and assimilate. Let's just say um so but we're not talking about Muslims generally, but we're talking about Muslims who have the intention of not assimilating, but in fact kind of fighting to uh carve out space here in their home, in their adopted home country, uh for the worship of their God, and then maybe spreading that. You know, there's the intention even spoken of is spreading that. So those categories for me are so helpful because you're right. I think evangelicals uh we're not making that distinction. We're collapsing all of this into that first category and then using verses like the Leviticus verse, you know, across the board. All of these people, we have to be kind, generous, hospitable to. But the Bible is um saying, hey, there are different categories, and your response to the alien, the um foreigner depends on which of these three categories. So helpful, Kelly, on that.

Leviticus 19 And Missing Context

Scott Allen 39:08

I I I'd like to go on to something that is a bugaboo for me, Kelly. I uh I this is and I respect Pastor John Piper a lot, but a few months ago, you know, I think there was well, it was when Minnesota was blowing up, right? Because um the the Trump administration was up there in Minneapolis and they were uh working to with ICE, immigration customs enforcement, to um, you know, find and deport people that were here illegally, especially criminals, and it just blew up, right? The whole city blew up, and eventually some people were killed. And uh, we all know that what happened there. And that, of course, happened in Los Angeles and many other cities. It's not just Minneapolis, but big time there. And I think John Piper, Pastor John Piper, again, respect him, but he posted that passage on his social media just without any context at all. Just we've got to be kind to the foreigner alien. But I I should have that verse in front of me from Leviticus, right?

Luke Allen 40:07

Yeah, Leviticus 19, 33 and 34.

Scott Allen 40:09

Go ahead, Luke, and read that again.

Luke Allen 40:11

Yeah, well, I I I'm just reading it right now, and I'm like, this makes so much sense now that I learned these three Hebrew words. Yeah, go ahead. It's so helpful. Yeah, so um Leviticus 19, 33 through 34. When the foreigner resides among you in the land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.

Scott Allen 40:36

Yeah. So he posted that without any context at all. Just put the Bible verse up, fair enough. But my what bothered me was that I thought here in our current context in the United States in 2026, uh, we have just had an unprecedented flood of immigrants that came in under Biden. It was facilitated, right, by our government on taxpayer dollars. Apps were created, we opened up the borders, we actually flew people in, we opened up highways along with United Nations and other groups to bring as many people in as we could. We don't even know how many came in during that period. So it's it's somewhere between 10 and 20 million that came in in just a few short years. I mean, I have personal experience with this when I was in Phoenix. Uh, just I remember one day I was at the airport, and the line to get onto the flights was out the door and around the corner, and it was everybody. They were from all over the world that had come across the border, this small little sleepy border crossing not far from Phoenix. Thousands were flooding in. It was amazing to see. Uh Kelly, uh, none of that context ever gets talked about. That somehow there was this mass facilitation of thousands, millions of people into the country. Um we're just supposed to act like none of that has happened, I guess. And then we quote that Bible verse about how we're supposed to treat these people. But why why? I guess my question is that's happening. We unprecedented numbers of people are being let into our country, facilitated by our governments. Um why? Why is that going on right now? What is behind that? And you've talked about this a little bit earlier. Uh, you know, when we you mentioned George Soros, money, there's money behind it. There's there's people that clearly have an interest in this. Why? What what is what is your best understanding of that?

Follow The Money And The Incentives

Speaker 3 42:31

Power. Not love, not justice, power, not compassion, not empathy, power. I I say that I say that because um and and I'd love to talk to share some verses about an actual biblical view of immigration a little a little a little bit more as well, but um it's just that every empire that lost control of its borders and refused to enforce assimilation eventually fractured and and uh the Romans learned it with the Goths, and we are learning it with modern equivalents. But the Biden Obama-Harris administration was next level in that it wasn't just a loss of control. It was, to your point, it was intentional. And, you know, the phone apps, the money, the flights.

Scott Allen 43:29

Um, if I could get you to flying them around once they arrived in the United States, I was I was struck by these these late night, midnight flights where they we on our taxpayer dollars were moving these immigrants from the border to where wherever, cities all over the country, you know.

Speaker 3 43:45

Well, winnable winnable voting districts, I think is what we saw. And the breakup, the breakup of the Midwest um was part of that. And in the WikiLeaks, there are emails where Soros is telling Obama to raise all the levels. Uh, Soros' Open Society Foundation funded, I've I read 50 nonprofits in Italy alone to force the Middle East into Europe. So our sovereign weakness to our the demoralization and destruction of sovereign nations is becomes more global power for the globalist funders. So they have no internal virtue or merit to earn authority, all they can do is destroy. And that's what I'm seeing is destruction.

Scott Allen 44:35

And what why do they want to destroy, let's say, United States or or Western Europe?

Speaker 3 44:42

Well, that's you know, I don't everyone is wondering that. Um and it's all becoming very apparent. Um, if people are watching Twitter, which is x.com now, and actual videos from actual people on actual streets and hundreds of cities. Um but I think that if you're asking my personal opinion, uh it's evolving. But um the left wants what they, in their own words, refer to as a permanent progressive majority. So it's America not as a not as a constitutional republic, but as a permanent progressive majority, or what John Kerry called a borderless world. And that means that means global control, and that means power. So in truly a new tower of babel, and of course add AI on top of that and surveillance uh and digital ID, and it's a very becomes a very dystopic kind of world.

Speaker 2 45:47

Yeah.

Speaker 3 45:48

Um, and so they weaken once sovereign nations. They not just through mass migration, but also through destroying the family structure. They've uh these foundations fund non-life giving sexuality. This is all, you know, this is not random. Uh they the fewer people in a country, the easier it is to control. Uh, they fund propaganda in our educational system, in our media, in our laws, and and in our border borders. So I'm continued to say mass migration is not loving, it is political, it's about power, and it uses human beings as pawns in a war of social engineering.

Speaker 2 46:39

Yeah.

Speaker 3 46:39

And as a former missionary, um I take offense at what they're doing to the communities I served in Central and South America and in American cities as well. I mean, in the process, this is destroying diverse and unique cultures, and we could end up with a very sick monoculture. So the two big sources of money to hundreds and hundreds of nonprofits that participate in this kind of demoralization. Um, our US state government uh money influenced by the United Nations and the Organization of Islamic Cooperation. Um, that is what Doge has been looking at and very concerning. I'm glad someone's paying attention. And then private charitable foundations I've mentioned, open society that's Soros, Ford, Rockefeller, Carnegie, etc., National Immigration Forum funded the evangelical immigration table to run a PR front to pass the Schumer Rubio bill using a cherry-picked Bible verse. I was a stranger and you welcomed me.

Scott Allen 47:51

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 47:52

Yeah. So that we're really dealing with um powers and principalities and people God loves, but they really need to uh repent and come back to Him.

Scott Allen 48:04

Yeah. I I see three things, Kelly, and I'd love your response to them in terms of why this is happening. I think on one level, like you said, power, just political power. Um I do think that there it seems quite clear to me that um uh you know, just there's a raw political calculation on the part of people on the left. If we can bring in uh large numbers of people, and you saw this in states like California, large numbers of people, you can give them benefits in a way that kind of almost bribes them or incentivizes them to keep you in power politically. And then you change uh voting laws such that, like here in Oregon, it's possible for anyone unvetted, illegal, uh undocumented, let's say immigrants, they can get um they can become registered to vote just by going down to the DMB and getting a driver's license that automatically registers them to vote. And then, you know, through mail in ballots, ballots are out there. They're not, you know, we anyways, it's it's possible to just kind of rig, you know, even quote unquote legally rig uh things using people from foreign countries to swing elections. And so that seems to me quite clear at this point. That's that's part of it. It's just raw political power. I think, I think the other side of it is uh this kind of globalist vision. I I I trace that back to the beginnings of the progressive era and people like Woodrow Wilson and you know, you know, back in the early 1900s, this vision of man, the world wouldn't let's, you know, and let's just say the United States would be so much better if if we didn't have power vested in individual people, but in kind of ruling elites that were educated at Harvard and Princeton, because they know better, they're smarter. Uh, you know, the the heart behind it was good, let's say, like, man, things would just go so much better if we just gave power to a small group of, you know, kind of well-intentioned ruling elites that are smarter than most people, and they'll come up with enlightened policies and um, you know, they'll they'll create this great, you know, country, right? You know, and so he wasn't a fan, for example, of the Constitution because it put too much power in the hands of individual people. And so that that's the basic progressive idea. And now you see that globally, uh, you know, when you you you gather groups of people at the World Economic Forum, it's the same kind of thing. Wouldn't it be great on a global scale if we just had the best and the brightest, meaning us, kind of running running things, right? You know, we would, you know, I think their my point is their intention, I think, is good. It's just foolish, right? You know, it's like, you know, and so their interest is in kind of this enlightened global governance with them ruling it. Uh, but then the problem is you've got uh you've got to tear down nations, you've got to kind of demoralize nations in order to have a global system of government. And the United States is the most powerful nation, so there's a vested interest in tearing the United States down. And then I guess the third thing I would just put on the table is that uh it seems to me that you you've got large corporations, you've large corporations, even small corporations that that benefit from, you know, uh foreign labor because they can pay them less, essentially, right? So uh you you've got a variety of different kinds of motivations going on here, it seems to me, Kelly. What are your thoughts or reactions to to kind of why we're seeing this massive amount of immigration right now? Do you agree with the that kind of simple analysis?

Speaker 3 51:31

Yes, again, I I what I see is an interest in weakening sovereign nations through open borders, through destruction of the family, um, of marriage and sexuality, of normal traditional common sense wisdom of the biblical ethic of life, of being fruitful and multiplying, of loving your neighbor in real ways and in your community, um, loving your community and loving your nation. I see, I think we're up against a war against um against common sense and traditional values. And Jesus is not okay with this. He is all about life. And uh so we need to be as well.

Practical Guidance For Churches And Neighbors

Scott Allen 52:23

Kelly, as we wrap up, you've been so good with us here uh giving us this time of yours. It's been really valuable. But I want to kind of bring this down to something that I think is very practical for a lot of us. Uh, my wife and I, Kim, and our family, Luke, when you were growing up, I mean, we um made a point of you know, really being involved in and ministering to uh immigrants, um, you know, families from places like Serbia during the war there, uh, from Afghanistan, from Iran, you know, I've we have many immigrant friends. And most people, um, most Christians now, because there's so many in the community, uh, they're all around us. And it creates um a kind of a question about how do we treat these people? You talked about the three categories uh uh biblically. How does that map onto individual Christians living in their own communities? Or are they to draw distinctions and treat people differently depending on those distinctions? What are your thoughts and wisdom for just how people, average people in their own communities should treat these immigrants and aliens that are among us?

Speaker 3 53:34

Yeah, great question, Scott. And likewise, I I I haven't been going overseas as much as I used to, but I still, you know, there are folks from around the world living in my neighborhood, and and so that same heart to want to bless and serve, uh, we share. And I a few thoughts that come to mind for Christians and what a compassionate and biblical response to immigration could look like. Um one is the first thing is just to protect people whom the Lord loves who are vulnerable to abuse from things like trafficking and drugs, so short-term shelter and food and clothing, prayer, prayer for healing of trauma that so many have suffered, uh being used by these uh, you know, deep state kind of um social engineers who don't actually care about these people. And then, secondly, um uh churches and pastors, please download for free and use it as a Bible study and citizenship guide, really an assimilation guide, the the book Wise Welcome. It was just translated into Spanish also by a uh uh Hispanic pastor, and he uses it for discipleship and for assimilation. And the website is AmericaneEvangelicals.org backslash immigration. Uh, you can download a free PDF of Wise Welcome and see the videos by Dr. Hoffmeier that correspond to the chapters in the book. Um, and share the gospel with every one of these people. So I work do some volunteer work with saturateusa.org that's giving out free gospel resources to every, they're trying to get every zip code in America, uh, every neighborhood adopted by Christians who then hand out these resources and church invitations, the Jesus film, etc. So go to saturateusa.org for that. Sign up. Um and thirdly, I think help we can help people who realize they've been used and abused um by this mass migration agenda to return to their home nations and communities. And we can help pay for that. We can adjoin them. Um and their communities are often hurting after so many people have left their grandparents, say, vulnerable to drugs and gangs and sharia law. And um, Paul tells us in Acts that the Lord chose those families, that time and the place of birth. These are not random accidents. Some believers I know are we voluntarily returning as missionaries, um, or churches are sometimes sending missionaries with people who are going back home, and we're to bless all the nations. So have a kingdom vision uh to go to the whole world. And then number four, Christians can help those who want to return to America as the gear, as a blessing. Um, we can help folks learn to apply legally and um help the nation return to or restore legal, legal immigration, which most nations have. Um, there are more ideas in wise welcome, but those are a first uh a few of my first thoughts.

Friendship Versus Law Enforcement Realities

Scott Allen 57:16

Let me ask one further follow-up question on that, Kelly. I think a lot of uh I'm thinking of actually a close friend of ours, and but this is true of people everywhere now. You know, they um have um people that are uh they came across the border illegally, they don't, they're undocumented. Um, there are millions of them now in the United States. Um, and this particular person's working for them, right? They they uh are helping them with landscaping or with uh you know with childcare or whatever. You know, these people are part of their families now almost, you know, they're part of their households because they're helping them, uh they're hiring them, they're paying them, right? Um they're they've become friends, they they're part of, you know, they they they know them very personally. And um again, I'm just gonna you think I'm thinking of this particular person because I think they represent a lot of people. Um, they get upset when um the immigration customs enforcement comes around and um would would be very upset at them, you know, being kind of uh arrested or you know, taken into custody or sent back across the border. And I what I'm what I'm struggling a little bit with there is that on one level, I understand, you know, that yes, you know, these are people in the community now, but I feel like there's a there's a there's a failure on the part of a lot of Christians to separate the kind of our role as individual Christians versus the role of the state in enforcing just laws, right? If these immigration laws are just laws, you know, and borders are uh just, which I agree with you they are biblically, and we have a police force that's kind of um its whole purpose is to enforce those laws, we have to allow them to do that, correct? And not be upset or participate in kind of undermining their efforts to do that. What advice would you give for Christians in that particular place? Because I think that's that's where it gets a little tricky right now.

Speaker 3 59:10

Yeah, oh, clearly. And I mean, who who doesn't have an instinct to want to protect their friend, right? Or their family member? That's understandable. I think this is why part of the reason why DHS, it's probably at DHS.gov, um made a provision to kind of reward people for going back home on their own volition, so voluntarily to and and why they prioritize criminals, arresting criminals and not not well-meaning people. And and um, so I think there is a provision for folks to to return home. I think it's even like it could be wrong, like a $3,000 um um you know, stipend or something.

Speaker 2 1:00:01

Stipend, right, you know.

Speaker 3 1:00:02

I and then apply to come back legally. So it's it by not going home, then folks are basically saying, I I don't care enough to to want to come to begin the process of applying as a citizen. Seems to me that that that a friend could help someone begin that process of legal citizenship.

Scott Allen 1:00:28

And encourage that. Yeah. And encourage that, yeah. That's right.

Speaker 3 1:00:31

I think so.

Scott Allen 1:00:32

Yeah, no, and I think just to support the state in its law, I mean, that's that's the God-given, the god-ordained role of the state is the enforcement of just laws, right? I mean, that that's kind of what it exists to do. And so we shouldn't um we should understand that. That's not necessarily my role as a as an individual citizen, right? But that is the role of somebody who's a representative of the state, the government, right?

Speaker 3 1:00:55

Yeah, and also I think we have to remember the um that so I have a a neighbor who is a roofer. And when under the Obama administration, so many started people started coming, he lost his the ability to pay his mortgage because he could no longer be in the roofing business because he his pricing was so vastly undercut by people here illegally. So it's this is these decisions are not without consequences. Who is being who is being affected? I mean, if you remember, Obama had there were 90 million Americans out of work while there were very poor as almost open borders.

Scott Allen 1:01:42

Yeah, and they were. And I've seen statistics that are shocking about how many of the jobs in the in the labor market right now are being filled by people from other countries, many of them who are here illegally. It's it's it's a stunning number, you know, compared to native-born people. So you're right. Um, that doesn't matter.

Speaker 3 1:01:58

No, and we have we have American citizens who feel they can't afford to work and and save enough money to get married and and start a family. I mean, the the um the implications of lawlessness are vast. And so I think there that the government is trying to make ways to reward uh thoughtful, lawful behavior, and we should be a part of that as well.

Scott Allen 1:02:26

Absolutely. Luke, you've been listening very carefully here. I'm sure you've got some questions, and I know that uh Kelly would need to be wrapping up, but I I do want to bring Luke in. Uh Luke, what thoughts or questions do you have for Kelly?

A Closing Call To Wise Love

Luke Allen 1:02:39

Yeah, I this has been so helpful, Kelly. This is one of my favorite episodes we've done all year. Just I've I've been thinking about this, wrestling with this, talking with a lot of friends about this, and it's it's a difficult one. It's uh which doesn't mean we shouldn't engage in it as Christians, but it is a difficult one, just with how how many factors are at play here and um the history of it too, which I think hardly anyone knows. Um one question that I I'm thinking of as you guys are talking about the role of the Christian here, is one thing I hear a lot is you know, so we're supposed to respect the the role of the government in enforcing just laws, but the immigration system, as far as I've heard and um I've seen, is is very clunky to say it mildly. And I'm I I realize that's because it's been flooded, but it just it doesn't seem like a very smooth running system, well-run system. What can Christians do to help uh speed things up or smooth things out? I don't know. Does that make sense?

Scott Allen 1:03:38

You're talking about the the the process for coming in legally, correct, Luke?

Luke Allen 1:03:41

Yeah, the legal the legal citizenship process I've heard can take 90 years. Well it that's right. A friend told me that. I don't know if that's true.

Speaker 3 1:03:53

No, I mean when you have tens of millions of people coming illegally because the previous administration forced that and socially engineered that, then among the many people who suffer are the people trying to come legally. And so we have to set that back in order. I think the Trump administration is trying to do that. And um and I don't know if if you were in a foreign country and you knew that you'd cut the line, I don't think you would, your conscience would feel real good about that. And it seems like especially if you're here illegally and a Christian, it seems like you'd want to make it right. And whether and if that means going back home and doing applying legally, then that's what it means. Um maybe there are ways of staying here and and applying legally. I actually don't know the details. I'm not a policy person um in the in terms of US laws and um, but that's my thought is um is is that you know, become the gear, read wise welcome, and learn how to become um the lawful foreign person who comes as a blessing. There's some of the most wonderful citizens uh who have our first generation citizen who love America and they know them. They they can pass citizenship tests that a lot of the rest of us would struggle with, probably. But I mean, you know, it is they're delightful. Um, and and that's that's what this country is all about.

Luke Allen 1:05:32

Yeah. Yeah. I've got my homework cut out for me. And yes, for everyone listening, this episode, we have a lot of resources. As always, you can find those down in the show notes. Um, we're gonna put a whole library of resources down there today because this is just something we all need to dive into, do our homework on, and become as well informed as we can so that we can be uh both a blessing to our neighbors and also faithful citizens to the country we live in.

Speaker 3 1:05:55

So may I end with a f a few last thoughts if if we have time. Okay, just, you know, what would a biblical and practical immigration system look like? Um, again, nations have always had the right to determine who enters their land and who would be invited to stay, should the arrangement be mutually beneficial. That's the way James Hoffmeyer put it in Wise Welcome. Uh and like gardens, nations need to be tended to flourish. Um, so we can welcome the Gare, who the person who comes legally as a blessing as a citizen. We can rebuild, um, I've just been a part of America, reads the Bible. We read the whole 475 of us, read the whole Bible. Um, it's on Pure Flix now, uh, from the Museum of the Bible. And Ezra and Nehemiah inspired that. Read, like really going back to the Word of God for wisdom, um, wisdom that we're sorely lacking. And then I read Isaiah 60, verse 18 no longer will violence be heard in your land, nor ruin or destruction within your borders. You will call your walls salvation and your gates praise. Uh, 2 Chronicles 14, Asa did what was good and right in the eyes of the Lord, removing foreign altars. Um, and um he he commanded Judah to seek the Lord, the God of their ancestors, to obey his laws. Let us build up these towns, he said to Judah. And just really the big picture, remember the great commission is to advance the gospel and kingdom of God for the flourishing of people in all nations, making disciples of all nations, like you all are doing with DNA. And then in the Bible, we don't find closed borders or open borders, we find discernment, wisdom, and we find truths by which all peoples and cultures can flourish. Um, so this is obviously a huge, significant issue. Policies and principles shape our future. And we as Christians have have the gift of scripture, the Holy Spirit to steward and lead our communities. So, just my closing thoughts are if we're passive and irresponsible, something less than God's love fills that void. And we look in the news at Europe in chaos from mass migration, at Nigeria and the continual slaughter of Christians. We look at Detroit and Minneapolis and Los Angeles. How will this eventually not be every US city? How would we leave this kind of future to our children and their generations to come? Without proactive biblical wisdom and US law based on biblical wisdom, we're doomed to an endless, unnecessary cycle of abuse and retaliation. What we're seeing in Northern Ireland this week. They couldn't take it anymore, the abuse. That's kind of violence and craziness, is not what God intends for his people and the world he loves. He wants peace, he wants shalom and diversity, not submission and conformity to aggressors. He wants beauty, he wants love. So I'd just say let's pivot from complicit, passive and foolish niceness to true kindness of biblical truth. God's truth is true love. So if you're silent, don't think you're compassionate and Christian, with rising crime, with rape, with murder, with missing children, hundreds of thousands of them, with outrageous fraud in our cities. Silence is complicity and cowardice. Instead, read our whole Bible, Isaiah 1, Nehemiah, Ezra, Proverbs, Romans, the Gospels. Speak, vote, start loving a little harder and smarter. And let's welcome the Gare as a citizen. And the Lord sees our obedient obedience to his word and can turn nations around quickly for those nations that study and obey his word. He loves us that much. Thank you.

Scott Allen 1:10:28

Great words, Kelly. And um, I just want to underscore one uh sentence that you said there that I love, and it's uh I always associate with you that biblical truth uh well, how how do you put it? Biblical truth is love. Truth is love.

Speaker 3 1:10:42

Yeah, God's truth is love. We the American Association of Evangelicals, our motto is God's wisdom, true love.

Scott Allen 1:10:50

Yep, biblical truth is love. Those are not separated biblically at all, and um, and so wisdom, truth. The the the the old biblical word for this, or the old the old Christian word I should say, is um uh prudence, right? It's it's wisdom with compassion. It's it's one of the cardinal virtues, but we boy, we've drifted far from it. So we do need, we sure do need uh that you're right in our our day, and that's on us. That's followers of Jesus, that's on us. That's that's what it means today to be salt and light, right? So uh we we need the wisdom that you're sharing, Kelly. Thanks for those great words. And just again, appreciate appreciate you being on the show and helping us today with uh with the thinking through this carefully and biblically.

Speaker 3 1:11:32

Thank you both so much. It's great to be here.

Scott Allen 1:11:34

God bless you, Kelly.

Speaker 3 1:11:36

Thank you.