Ideas Have Consequences
Worldviews shape communities, influence politics, steer economics, set social norms, and ultimately affect the well-being of both your life and your nation. Obedience to the Great Commission involves replacing false ideas with biblical truth. Together with the help of friends, our mission is to demonstrate that only biblical truth leads to flourishing lives, families, societies, and nations. This show explores the intersection of faith and culture, aiming to address pressing societal issues through a biblical lens. Ideas Have Consequences is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance.
Ideas Have Consequences
Understanding the Times & Knowing What to Do: Occupy Till I Come | Naomi Smith
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Episode Summary:
Revival is not enough to heal this civilizational moment.
Many Christians long for spiritual renewal, but what happens after revival? How do transformed hearts lead to transformed families, institutions, communities, and nations?
In this episode, Naomi Smith joins us to discuss her new book, Occupy Till I Come, co-authored with Darrow Miller. Together, they explore why understanding our cultural moment is only the beginning. Diagnosing our culture's problems is relatively easy; cultivating renewal is where the real work begins. The Church must recover a biblical vision for cultural engagement, break the sacred-secular divide, and learn how to faithfully steward every area of life for God's kingdom.
Join us as we discuss worldview, discipleship, cultural renewal, the Church's role in society, hospitality, family, vocation, and what it means to "occupy till He comes" in a rapidly changing world. If you've ever wondered how your faith connects to your work, community, and culture, this conversation offers both a challenge and a roadmap.
Who is Disciple Nations Alliance (DNA)? Since 1997, DNA’s mission has been to equip followers of Jesus around the globe with a biblical worldview, empowering them to build flourishing families, communities, and nations. 👉 https://disciplenations.org/
🎙️Featured Speaker:
Naomi Smith is a mother of three living in Wichita, Kansas, who carries a deep conviction that the church is called to fully participate in building the Kingdom of God in this cultural moment.
Passionate about equipping and mobilizing believers, she writes and teaches on the intersection of faith, family, and cultural engagement. Naomi is the author of Home Inspired, her first book exploring how worldview and motherhood meet in the everyday life of a home.
📌 Recommended Links
👉 Book: Occupy Till I Come: Equipping the Next Generation to Break the Sacred-Secular Divide and Disciple Nations at the Level of Culture
👉 Episode: Book Release "Occupy Till I Come" | Darrow Miller
👉 Our Impact study: Impact - Disciple Nations Alliance
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📽️YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/c/DiscipleNationsAlliance/
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📩 Ask us anything: info@disciplenations.org
The Sobering Call To Multiply
Naomi SmithThat parable and others like it, with the directive to occupy or to do business until he comes, were very sobering. And I remember early on in my Christian life praying, God, I want to hear you say well done, faithful servant. Because there was a wake-up call for me that it wasn't just about salvation, that it was about being faithful with the resources that he had given me to multiply them to his good pleasure. And so how do I do that? The good news is that Jesus established his kingdom 2,000 years ago, and of the increase of his government and peace, there will be no end. Do we believe that? I think what I would say is this is not a call for Christian domination. This is a call to hurry up and grow. My actions matter today in terms of reseeding this next generation with the truths of the Bible.
Luke AllenLadies
Podcast Mission And Cultural Discipleship
Luke Allenand gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Ideas Have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. As Christians, we all know that our mission is to spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. However, our mission, the Great Co-Mission, also involves working to transform our cultures so that they increasingly reflect the truth, goodness, and the beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected this second part of her mission, and today most Christians are having little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God. Hi guys, my name is Luke Allen. I'm one of the co-hosts here on the podcast, and I'm joined by my dad and host today. And we just hopped off a really fun discussion with uh the co-author of uh one of the new books coming out of the DNA, which is called Occupy Till I Come. She's the co-author along with Daryl Miller of that book, Naomi Smith. So we just hopped off the interview with her. Dad, would you mind just giving people a quick little summary of uh the discussion?
Scott AllenYeah, you know, Naomi is just a friend to the DNA. We've had her on the podcast before. She's just a really wonderful person. Got a young family, her and her husband Austin, and they um really are working to live out these principles very practically in their own home and family and work. Um and what she brought to the book, I think, was uh a real practical, application-oriented kind of uh aspect uh to these big ideas of what does it mean to create godly culture or to disciple a nation at the level of culture. These sound very heady and ac abstract, but Naomi brings it right down, makes it very practical. And uh yeah, she had lots of kind of really great insights today. I learned things that I didn't expect just you know going through the podcast today, and I look forward to our listeners uh tuning into some of that.
Luke AllenSo we tried our best to really hone in on practical application of these big concepts, um, which we're always trying to do, but Naomi does that really well, and uh she does that really well in this book. Um, if you guys grab a copy of the book, the end of each chapter ends with a study guide that really breaks down how you can apply these things into your life, which I think is so good on a book with uh title as daunting as Occupy Till I Come, you know. What does that mean? What does that look like?
Scott AllenOccupy till I come. This uh subtitle is amazing. Equipping the next generation to break the sacred secular divide and disciple nations at the level of culture. That's quite a subtitle.
Luke AllenIt's quite a subtitle and it leaves you scratching your head a little bit. What does this mean? Well, this book breaks it down really well, makes it practical, makes it hands-on for all of us. And I hope today's discussion does that for you guys. Um, for all of you guys who are listening, as always, we always want to just tell you thank you so much for your time and attention here on the show. We've noticed in the last couple months that there is a lot more of you guys tuning in. Uh, so if you guys are curious about what we do here at the Disciple Nations Alliance, we have a short little description of what we do down in the show notes. But if you'd like to check out more about who we are and what we do, uh again, we are the Disciple Nations Alliance, and you can find out more about what we do over on our website, which is disciplenations.org. If any of you guys listening have not left this show a rating or a review, I know that every podcast asks you to leave those, but uh they do that because it really matters. It's one of the only ways that we can help um promote and boost the show and get in front of more people. So if you guys wouldn't mind just taking the the 10 seconds to leave this show a little rating, a little one to five star rating, and then a little 30-second review uh would be awesome. Just a sentence or two. We really appreciate that. And uh as always, we hope to continue to grow this show and reach more people with this message and also hope to uh invite more guests on and having the the ratings review here on the podcast app helps with that as well. So if you guys wouldn't mind doing that, we would be very grateful. But without further ado, let's hop into today's discussion with Naomi Smith.
Scott AllenWe're so excited,
Meet Naomi Smith And The Book
Scott AllenNaomi, to have you on the podcast today. Thank you for for joining us.
Naomi SmithThank you for having me.
Scott AllenIt's uh it's such a pleasure to, I should say, have you back on the podcast because we've uh we've been privileged to have you on before. Um for those who missed Naomi previously, um Naomi's a mother of three. She lives in Wichita, Kansas, and she carries a deep conviction that the church uh is called to fully participate in building the kingdom of God right now at this cultural moment. She's passionate about equipping and mobilizing believers, and she writes and teaches on the intersection of faith, family, and cultural engagement. She's the author of Home Inspired, which is her first book. It explores how worldview and motherhood meet in the everyday life of a home. And then uh, of course, she's joined with uh Daryl Miller, uh co-founder of the Disciple Nations Alliance, uh, in this new book that we're going to be talking about today, Occupy Till I Come, equipping the next generation to break the sacred secular divide and disciple nations at the level of culture. And uh before we jump in, Naomi, with some questions, I just want to read. Uh you have such incredible endorsements uh that have come in and super encouraging. And I just want to read one. This is from John Stone Street, um, who is the president of the Colson Center for uh Biblical Worldview, and um he's also the co-producer of Truth Rising, that great documentary that came out earlier this year. Uh John wrote this. He said, Darrell Miller has been describing, applying, and advancing a Christian worldview for decades now. In that time, he's been among the most prophetic voices describing ideas and their consequences for people and for nations. In this book, he demonstrates that uh that what Francis Schaeffer, Chuck Colson, and others predicted has come to pass. What was theological or the excuse me, theoretical a generation ago has now become existential. The good news is that the central truth of the gospel is not just theoretical. Jesus Christ is risen, he is Lord, and we are his agents of renewal.
Luke AllenThat's a really good endorsement for setting up the book. Yeah. I know, that's great. I I love how he kind of uh uh paved the way between Schaefer and Coulson and you know the pr their predictions and s some of their really prophetic books talking about where where the culture will go if we don't change course. It went there, and now this book is a great response to our cultural moment, and it's perfect from Darrow too, because he really uh followed in the footsteps of Francis Schaefer and Chuck Colson. Uh this endorsement I thought was just great. It's it's short, but it's nice, nice and to the point. This is from our friend Dr. Josh Mulville, author of The Gospel Shaped Family, and also the host of the podcast that shares that name. And he wrote about the book the ideas in this book built our country and they can restore it as well. So I don't that's a pretty right to the point. That's pretty high praise. Right to the point. I love that. Um Naomi, uh, did any of the endorsements stand out to you in a special way? I'm just kind of putting you on the spot here, but just as you read through them when they first came in.
SpeakerYeah, I really liked uh John Stone Street's I thought that he he described Darrow's work so well and then also kind of um so clearly articulated where we are now in the playing out of those ideas.
Scott AllenWell, Naomi, we want to talk about the book today, and and uh you are the co co-writer, co-author uh of this book with Darrow, and so congratulations. I mean, that's a it's it's it's a big project. Boy, a book is a huge project, and uh co-writing a book is a big is a big undertaking. So congratulations. Um I just want to for our listeners who have no idea what this book is about beyond these endorsements that we've read, just give us at the beginning here, kind of in your own words, uh what is the what is the central message of Occupy? What
Understanding The Times And What To Do
Scott Allendo you hope to see with this book? What's your prayer for it?
SpeakerWell, the book came about as a result of Darrow really thinking about um how do we understand the times and seasons in which we live? And it and he used as a reference point the sons of Issachar who understood the times and seasons, and therefore they knew what Israel ought to do. And I don't know that I really had mold over that second part of that verse very much. I kind of had heard a lot about the first part, which is understanding the times and seasons, but then they knew what to do. And so the book is really intended to help the church have the correct mindsets and paradigms to move into action in such a way that we can see restoration, reformation. We need revival, but we need that revival to move into reformation of institutions, of families, of communities. And um, and so the church needs a different mindset in order for that to happen. And so that was the intention with this book.
Scott AllenYeah, Oz Guinness talks about the cut flower, and um I think that's that's just always so helpful to kind of keep in mind that the world that we live in here in the West, um and really around the world, we owe so much to the Bible, you know, things like uh just respect for human dignity, uh respect for both men and women, um, women's rights in many ways, and the list goes on and on, freedom, uh the a general level of prosperity. All of these uh are rooted in Christ and in the Word of God. Um and then, you know, uh fifty, a hundred or more years ago, the uh leaders in the West um decided to um move away from God, you know, and have we've intentionally cut ourselves off from the Bible and any flower that cuts itself off from the soil, eventually it looks okay for a while, but eventually it dies. It withers and dies. And um and we're at a point where the the the civilization that was built on the scriptures is withering and dying. That's literally the time that you're talking about, Naomi. And and so yeah, the the the the question then is how do we respond? What do we do in the time that we live? Um Naomi, how did you come to co-write this book with Darrow?
Naomi SmithYeah, so Darrow and I have been friends for a while. When I was in the throes of transitioning into motherhood, I met Darrow and he really nurtured the seeds of a huge paradigm shift through which I was undergoing um from a lack of value for the maternal into this taking my place as one who was discipling the culture of my home. And so I really appreciated Darrow's friendship and input at that time. And then I started to write, and you guys and Darrow all really championed me as I wrote my first book, which was more of a personal account of how God was just leading me out of this disdain for motherhood and into um something beautiful and also something very powerful. And then um I got to go to Spain with the DNA and with Darrow, and we recorded um the Grand Design, and we got to be with people from all over the world. The Grand Design is Darrow's work on the uh beauty of the family and of um male and female design. And then um we just stayed in touch, and a couple years ago, I had written something called the Feminine Manifesto that he published on his blog, and uh we kind of came back in touch with one another, and he asked me if I would help unshutter his blog and just work with him on some pieces that he'd been writing, and he was working on a series called Understanding the Times and Seasons, which I had heard him just mention to me, and I was very intrigued by the just the the bare bones of the concepts that he was working with, and so we started um wrestling through how to write that blog, which eventually turned into this book two years later. So that's how we are here today.
Scott AllenWhat was it like working with Darrow? Was it uh did you enjoy that process? Put you on the spot here a little bit.
SpeakerYes, I did enjoy the process. Um, I think I it was more wrestling than I thought it would be. And what I mean by that is that there are often times that Darrow would write something and I would not understand what he was saying through what he was writing. And then we would talk about it, and then I would rewrite it, and then I would send it back, and he would he would maybe be maybe say, Oh yeah, that's exactly what I was trying to say, or it might be like, No, that's not exactly it. And so, and so it was more conceptual and more wrestling with the ideas than I actually originally thought it would be. I thought I would just be kind of proofreading, which is not my strength. So, you know, I'm kind of glad that it wasn't, it wasn't that. But yeah, it was, I think um my husband initially noticed right away that my language changed when I started working this closely with Darrow, and I think I became more bold, emboldened about what I was seeing. And I also think I started thinking more civilizationally than I had been before. I think he the way Darrow described it is I thought more grassroots, like I want to influence my friends, I want to influence my family, like the people around me. And he's like, you have to think grassroots and grass tops, as what he would say, like politics and institutions and all these things. And so I think I started thinking more like that as a result of this book.
Scott AllenWow, that's great. You know, it it's a gift, I'm sure, to Darrow to have you do that and even to yourself. Don't you feel like somebody once described to me writing as the process of just learning how to think, you know, just getting your own thoughts kind of worked out, you know, in order to do that, yes, to think well. You you almost have to write, you know, put it down, read it, look at it, go, that's not quite what I meant to say, or whatever it is. And and uh I I know people sometimes ask me, like when I write, who are you writing for, Scott? And I was like, I'm writing so I can understand this. I'm so I'm writing for me, you know, just to get my head kind of like around whatever you know it is I want to think about. And then hopefully it'll be useful for somebody else. But I I can't, you know, I can't really write for somebody else very well. I don't know what what's going to appeal to them, but I I know I you know I want to get my thoughts clearer. That's kind of what I hear you say, Naomi, too. Yeah, for sure. Well, yeah, I want to just on that last point that you made about you were, you know, living very much in uh a world with your children, your husband, uh you those around you in your church and whatnot, wanting to see change, influence. But beyond that, it was kind of not something you thought maybe that much about, and Dara challenged you to think beyond that. I noticed that with a lot of a lot of Christians. It's like uh it's hard to get out of their kind of just immediate uh life, you know, uh there because it it occupies so much of our time and attention naturally, you know. Um so to step back and think about bigger things like the n city, nation, civilization, that's really big, you know. Uh we tend to not do it. Um we don't pay a lot of attention. And I think then you also have the side of uh Christians who say we don't need to. Like that that that's actually a distraction kind of uh i if if our Christian mission is to save Western civilization, somehow we've gone wrong, you know. Our Christian mission isn't civilization, it's saving people and getting them into heaven into the church, you know, and so it's not civilization. How do you respond to some of those concerns that uh people have and and what helps you naming that?
Escaping The Sacred Secular Divide
SpeakerYeah, I mean, I think that what you're talking about stems from the sacred secular divide, which is it limits the scope of the gospel. And I think we are underdeveloped just in general as Christians in our ability to think about how biblical principles apply, they apply to so many different areas of life. I mean, that was why for me, um I mean I was blessed to actually come to Christ in a culture where there was this um conviction that we were to bring the gospel of the kingdom into every area of life. And so when we when, especially when we started um interacting with some different teachers like Gary North and different people like that, we really started asking good questions when I was single. I started asking questions like, well, how does the gospel apply to economy or the arts? I was raised in an artistic home. How does it apply to the arts? It can't just be slapping Jesus music on like the same kind of dance that the world makes, you know. I mean, it can't just be that shallow. And so um I was blessed with asking those good questions, but then when it came to motherhood, I felt like my life had been become so small. But what I realized was that the same principles apply to building a family and a home as do as apply to nation building. But I don't think that we're really thinking that way. I don't think that we're really um seeing how the principles of the Bible can have so many different implications and applications. And um and I think that that is largely due to the sacred secular divide.
Scott AllenRight. We've kind of narrowed the message of the Bible down to um a message of personal salvation, as as I always say, as central as that is. I mean, that is the the beating heart of the uh of the of the gospel in many ways, is uh, you know, answering the question, what must I do to be saved? Um, you know. And yet the Bible is much more than that. It's a comprehensive worldview. It makes sense of the whole of reality. And so just like you're saying, you know, we we have to be trained to understand that whole worldview and then how it applies, how it applies to to everything, like motherhood and and the arts. And I think you're right. I think we're uh really undernourished in that respect. I was I was just uh listening last week to uh Clarence Thomas, the great Supreme Court justice, and in my view, he's one of America's greatest living Americans, and he was articulating um uh what he c he called it a biblical first principle. And it was the idea that um God exists and that he is the he is the king, and that our um our rights to life and liberty come from him and not from any other government or any other king or potentate, you know. They come from God and so they can't be taken away. That's in the Declaration of Independence. He said it's a biblical first principle, and if you build a government around that biblical first principle, you get something like what we have and what we've enjoyed here in the United States. It's just an application of a first principle. And I was so blessed by that because I think, gosh, we don't hardly hear that anymore, you know. And people, Christians, go, oh, you know, the they they just kind of brush off the let's say the form of government we have in the United States as if as if it just came about by accident or it's not that important. But it was it was an intentional process of applying biblical first principles. So Sorry, just a little a little commentary on my part there. But Luke, I'd like to bring you in and um what what are you hearing and what questions do you have here for Naomi?
Luke AllenYeah, I I I'm still just chewing on what you said, Naomi, about how this book and just getting to know Darrow helped you start looking at the grass tops level instead of the grassroots level. Looking at the bigger what's going on in culture, what's going on in nations and how once you can understand that, it's it's it's like the the order's right. Start with the big concepts and then work your way down to the specifics, your daily life. Building a culture in your family. It's easier to understand how to build a culture in your family if you underha understand how to build a culture in a nation, and even just what culture is in general. Um so starting there at the that the Worldview Foundational level uh helps it really helps. It helps me a lot. Uh there's a reason that Jesus said go and make disciples of all nations instead of families, instead of individuals, instead of businesses. He said nations. And then obviously that means also breaking it down to the grassroots level. But he started big for a reason. And uh I just find that so helpful when you can understand things at that meta-concept level and then break them down. But unfortunately, a lot of people have a hard time breaking them down and making these big concepts practical. You know, culture and uh I mean any of these concepts, philosophy, you know, a lot of times I get stuck in the ideas and it's like, well, how do we make this practical? I get that this philosophical idea is beautiful and practical and uh helpful, but I don't actually know how to live it out in my life. Like you tell me that my work has meaning and value and like work is worship, but what does that look like for me? I'm an electrician, you know, and not many teachers are able to bridge that gap, and that's what I love about this book, Occupy Till I Come, is Darrow's just so good at talking at big concept levels. He took he's a worldview teacher, right? But what you guys did, and I think this is a lot of a lot a lot of because of your part, Naomi, is you take these concepts, you take God's overarching story of history, right? Creation, fall, redemption, consummation, um, restoration, and you break it down into here's how you can live this out around a dinner table. And that's the part that so many people need. That's the part that I need a lot of times, is I come away from talking to Darrow, we were talking last Friday, and I was asking him a big question, you know. I was saying, in a postmodern world, uh, how can we convey truth, true truth ideas to people when their concept of truth doesn't even really exist? When they've shunned that part of their mind. Of course, we all know truth, but they've pushed that down, they've suppressed that so far that you can't really use a well-crafted logical argument with them. And Darrow's response was, you use beauty. And I'm like, what does that mean? Like it's like it sounds really smart, but what does that mean? You know, like when I'm talking to someone at a coffee shop, break it down for me. And he was able to do that, which was so helpful. That is. You know, he started with the big concept, and then we broke it down to the talking to someone at a coffee shop. And we we played back and forth. I was kind of we were doing like a little little mock trial kind of thing. And it's so helpful. And Darrow's great at that, you're great at that. So that's what I really appreciate about this book is um it's a manual, it's not just a book. This isn't just an intellectual pursuit. Like this is this is hands-on, this is something you can apply immediately when you put down the book. And so, anyways, I'm just rambling, but that's what I appreciate about the book. How did that process work though, Naomi? I know you already talked about that a little bit, but Darrow's writing at these big concept levels. He's talking about civilizations, he's talking about occupying till I come, which is really the Christian call from the time of Jesus until the end of history. You know, huge concepts here, but you guys broke it down so well. Like how did that work? How was that back and forth um actually played out?
Turning Big Ideas Into A Manual
SpeakerI think that we one thing that we wanted to do was focus on the principles that we see the church maybe is lacking in terms of um having a structure for advancing the kingdom. And so we we included those kinds of principles and really honed in on say the idea that um God is a king, Christ is a king, and that he has made us ambassadors of his kingdom, and um which brings in the title of Occupy Till I come. But um also one thing that we talked about was just having language that more accurately describes this kind of lifestyle. So when you talk about church, we we went round and round talking about the word church and how it's been hijacked by uh people who say that it's it's basically a worship service, but that's not what it actually is biblically. Of course, it's the ecclesia, it's the gathering of the saints, there's kind of a uh a decision-making quality, uh an authority that's implied in that word, the assembly of the saints, and it's all been lost. So we so we try to bring language, attention to language that would help people have handles for reforming their way and their orientation to everyday living. I think the language thing is a big deal. Um, but then you know, we have study guides at the end of every chapter that basically um highlight paradigm shifting language and then also action steps and then further biblical principles that people can delve into. And so it's great for anyone who is training people, um, discipling people, who's over a network of people, just to be able to take the book and use it instead of um having to create their own curriculum or something like that.
Scott AllenYeah, I think one of the things that's so powerful about the book, Naomi, is that you did kind of create it as a as a manual. You know, it's something that you um you you conclude each section and each chapter, if you will, with um kind of uh, you know, really specific action items and and and kind of big idea. Here's the big idea. Here's some suggestions for action. It's uh it really is a like you say, it's really uh really meant to be applied and lived out. You've done really a marvelous job at that. So I want to go back just for a second just to clarify something I I heard you say about the church. I I just if you don't mind just picking that back up, Naomi. When you say we've lost it, I I what what can you clarify that? What what um what what have we lost there when it comes to the concept of church?
Church As Embassy And Kingdom Business
SpeakerUm well I think that we've lost the idea that God is a king and that he has made us his vice regents. I've heard you guys talk about that on this podcast, that he's given us a responsibility to represent him and his ways and his values in and to create culture that would reflect and institutions that would reflect his way of being, his ethics, you know. Like, I mean, it it it's a it's a theme that runs throughout the Bible that you know from from Genesis and the cultural mandate of being fruitful and multiplying and guarding and cultivating the garden, he's given us a job to do. He we have responsibility in all of this. And part of the job is to know him and to know what he loves and what he hates and to um create gardens, so to speak, um using our creativity and our hard work, but also it's like a father-daughter, father-son business, you know. I mean, I think the the business metaphor is kind of is really uh applicable in that Jesus said, Didn't you know I was gonna be about my father's business? Like there's there's an element of advancing a business, and this idea of occupy till I come, of course, um stems from a verse in Luke 19, and it was it was Jesus giving them a parable because they were expecting him to just walk in and take over, and so he's like, Okay, I know this is what you're expecting. I'm gonna give you a message.
Scott AllenIt doesn't say his immediate return. They were expecting his immediate return.
SpeakerYes, his immediate return. Yes, and and so he's like, I'm gonna give you this to help you know what to do.
Scott AllenUntil I come back, yeah.
SpeakerUntil I come back, yes, and and and of course it was a king who was going to receive a kingdom, and he gave his servants some resources, and they the expectation with a loaded expectation that they were to make it multiply, it wasn't just to save it, it was to multiply it. And then there would be an accounting that happened after um after it all was over. And um, and so for me personally, the um those those parables, that parable and others like it, um, with the directive to occupy or to do business until he comes, were very sobering. I was very sobered by those parables, and I remember early on in my Christian life praying, God, I want to hear you say well done, good and faithful servant. I mean, I prayed that over and over and over again because there was a a wake-up call for me that it wasn't just about salvation, that it was about being faithful with the resources that he had given me to multiply them to his good pleasure. And so how do I do that?
Scott AllenYeah, I love that, Neam. I love the the imagery of a of a business with uh, you know, kind of a family business, because you're right, Jesus uses that language um with his, you know, with his father, right? I'm I'm about my father's business. And then carrying that forward, you know, we're essentially invited into the business, right? You become a partner, you know, or a member of the family, but in a sense we're business partners too. He's the lead, right? Uh right, he owns the business. But he's given us, he's blessed us with a role to play in it. You know, I mean, I think that's really the right way to see it is that we we are we're blessed to, you know, have a role to play in this business. And and actually there's an expectation that we'll be good employees. We'll be, you know, we'll bear some good fruit here. I hear a lot of confusion still about this because you know, some people get really defensive and say, oh, you know, we don't bring God's kingdom. That's God or Jesus. Jesus brings his kingdom. We don't do that. And of course, I'm like, well, he, you know, yes, that's correct. Jesus brings his kingdom, but he's given us a role to play. Because I always feel like if you just make it some kind of emphatic statement about Jesus doing it, it kind of leaves us with no role to play. Um and no, he's given us a role to play and he has expectations. That's the point of that parable, right? There will there will be an accounting as well.
Speaker 3Yes.
Luke AllenUm and I you know I was thinking about that last night. Um, and I I a couple and I always think in analogies, so a couple analogies came to mind. You guys can tell me if these are helpful, but you know, God's gift of salvation to us is the greatest gift of all time. You know, he he adopts us into his family and tells us that we are co-heirs along with Christ in his kingdom, and you know, co-heirs to what inheritance? The inheritance of everything, because everything's God's. And in response to that, who doesn't want to out of gratitude go and do something about that to just represent to our Father that we're thankful? You know, if you know, Dad, if you gave me your entire inheritance, you know, I don't know, randomly, uh why wouldn't I want to go and just serve you, you know, or do something to kind of please you? Of course I want to do something. You know, it's just an obvious response. It's not like I'm expecting to like, you know, bring the kingdom, you know, exactly. It's just I want to because I'm thankful. That just seems like such an odd obvious response to me. It's not a workspace salvation. It's I want to. I'm excited, I'm grateful. And and not to mention that, but we're we're we're designed for this.
Scott AllenThat's what it means to be a region. That's right.
Luke AllenYeah, it's it's uh, you know, getting my hand to the plow, but I'm I'm designed to plow. So it's like this is great. This is what I'm here for. It's it's yes, it's work, but it's it's great work. It's like a sled dog, you know. Like they're so excited to go out and run the sled because they're designed for it that's in their DNA. Yeah. So uh I don't know if those analogies help, but um, it's just such a cool concept. That's good.
Scott AllenYeah, I mean, when you think of um of this work that we have to do, you know, to be faithful, to hear well done, good and faithful servant, to occupy, especially in the times that we're living in, this cut flower time where we don't have a lot of time. I mean, it it all that we take for granted in the West can go away, and it can go away very quickly. Um, you know, I think people are foolish to just take it for granted and assume it's always going to be this way. Um, you just haven't been out around the world enough to see what it can be like. You know, I was like, go go spend some time in North Korea, you know, if you're flippant about this, you know, and see how you would like to live in a place like that. But um, you know, when you think of people that really get this and are living this out, Naomi, like your heroes maybe, uh, what who are they?
Pilgrims Jamestown And Biblical Foundations
Scott AllenWhat and what sets them apart as examples or models for you, Naomi?
SpeakerWell, um I've just recently come into contact with the work of a guy named David Barton. Do you know him?
Speaker 2Oh, sure, yeah. Uh-huh.
SpeakerHe's wall builders and he wrote a book called The American Story. And I found myself reading that book and getting very angry because I had been lied to so badly. Oh, an American. Yeah, he's a historian, right?
Scott AllenYeah.
SpeakerYes, he's a historian who pulls the uh foundation of America back to its biblical, rightful biblical roots. And he um was recently in Wichita and he did a um a little day, a workshop, and I was there, and he compared the two settlements of Jamestown and Plymouth. And in Jamestown, they they landed there and they were Christians in name. They planted a cross and they devoted the land to Jesus, and but they were not biblical. And so that's how Barton describes it. And so they were socialistic, they relied on the king, not Jesus the king, the king, um for their resources. They didn't want to work, they had got their resources when they ran out from the Indians, but they didn't actually buy the land from the Indians or or do any kind of honest exchange. And they started starving, they started eating one another. Like, I mean, it was really bad. And it was a place that was ripe for um for slavery because of the lack of of a value for work, the lack of private property, the lack of the application of some of these um biblical principles, as compared to Plymouth. And I just recently read um a biography about uh William Bradford that just arrested me. Because here was a man who was just trying to be faithful. It makes me want to cry. He was just trying to be faithful to apply the Bible to every area of responsibility that he had. And he actually came up with a bare bones structure for free market capitalism and also for um due process. I mean, these people they went back to the Bible again and again to knit the script the principles of the scripture into the building of their settlement. And as a result, anything good that's come from, I mean, I shouldn't say it like that, but like a lot of the good that's come from America and that's been built out in America has come from them and their conviction that we will build our civilization based on the Bible. So they're some of my heroes. Um the Plim the pilgrims. Amen.
Scott AllenAnd I if I could just underscore Naomi, I I I I would encourage you. Yeah, I had the same experience. I love history, and I felt the same anger that you did about how much I was lied to about our American history and especially about those very people that landed at Plymouth. Um, and when I read Um Bradford's, in fact, I was just back in Boston. I I paid a visit to his gravesite, and it was very moving, you know, because he's like like you, he's a huge hero for me. Um and he wrote a book called Um On Plymouth Plantation. It's easy to read. I think every American absolutely needs to read on Plymouth Plantation because the DNA of America was established in Plymouth, and it was largely his application of biblical principles, just like you say. And it continues to ripple down to this very day. Yeah.
SpeakerIt does. And what's so interesting to me about reading some of his writings is that he was kind of disappointed with how some of the things turned out in his lifetime. But when you look at the ripple effect of that man's life, it's just astounding. I mean, it's amazing. And it was just because he just was like Plymouth's rock, you know? I mean, he just stood out of the room.
Scott AllenYou would say God was Plymouth Rock, you know, but but he's a little he really he just lived it out. Um and you know, it's interesting too. They were, it was life and death. So many people died. This was really, really difficult, you know, to establish a foothold in a new continent like this, you know, with uh and and their purpose, by the way, was different than it was um at Jamestown. Jamestown, it was really a business venture. Uh but at Plymouth it wasn't. I mean, these were people that were fleeing because they wanted to worship God freely. That's why they were there. Yes. And they wanted to create a kind of a a civilization, I mean a city, uh, a you know, a kingdom, if you will, of where they could worship freely. I mean, that was their vision, you know. And um, yeah, so they they had a very different motivation. So, anyways, yeah.
Luke AllenYeah, that's cool you brought up Billy and Bradford because a lot of times when we talk about these things occupying until I come, discipling nations, people are like, Oh, you're triumphalistic, you think you can make this utopia here on earth or whatever, the criticisms. We've never seen someone do that throughout history, and I'm like, Yeah, we've never seen someone create a utopia if that's what you're talking about. But have we have we seen people actively obey the Great Commission to disciple their nation in small ways or big ways? Oh, absolutely. William Bradford is a perfect example of that. St. Patrick, perfect example that we talk about. William Wilberforce all the time. Great example of that. Now, did they create utopias? Was everything perfect? No. And in the pilgrim's case, that is very evident. Sure. Sin was still a part of their experience. Obviously, they had this terrible winter the first year they were there, and what was it? Like almost half of them died. Half of the people died? Yeah, about half. Yeah. So not easy times.
Scott AllenThis is what I was gonna say. The truth when you live out the truth of the biblical principles, things tend to go better for you. You know, if you don't, things tend to go worse. And you know, they they didn't have any uh margin, you know, for mistakes. You know, so if if things went worse, if they weren't living on out the truthfulness of these things, um they died. I mean, you know, and uh there's there's that one example of um when they first came, they too were kind of socialistic about socialistic yeah. They they everyone was working for the common good in the sense that they didn't have private property. Um and be because of that, you know, just because of people's sin nature, people were lazy. You know, somebody else will do the work. They'll go up and like weed the garden today or haul the water over to that corn crop. I'm just gonna sleep a little longer because somebody else will take care of it. And they almost died, you know. And so, I mean, so he's like, okay, the Bible talks about private property and you know, owning private property, you know, in the right in the Ten Commandments, right? Do not covet, uh, do not steal. So he said, We're we're gonna divide it this little plot of land up into uh sections that everyone can have ownership of. That turned it around, you know, when people Yeah, go ahead there, Naomi. Sorry.
SpeakerYou don't work, you don't that's right. That's it, yeah.
Scott AllenAnd you know, again, like literally, like practically, you know, they didn't have the margin. Like they literally would die if they didn't. So right, yeah.
SpeakerYeah. An interesting thing that uh Barton brought up was were the Salem witch trials, because obviously that's a huge indictment on the The pilgrims that people bring up. But I guess one thing that was really interesting was that witch trials were going on around all around the world. And something like 500,000 people died because of witch trials. I did not know any of this. All I've heard is the Salem witch trials are the worst thing ever, and the pilgrims, you know, were just wrong in everything because of this. But um I didn't know also that relatively speaking, the pilgrims repented, came to their senses because of the Bible, came to their senses about the lack of due process in a very quick relatively quick manner, made restitution, repented, and established a due process that was in line with the scriptures. I'm like, that's pretty remarkable that they were humble enough to just continue learning, even though they'd made this grave error. Like, that's amazing to me.
Scott AllenYeah, you never, you never hear about it. I always go back and reflect on my own education and I studied history. That was actually my degree in college. And the only thing that I think I really took away from the, you know, the the Puritan pilgrim purit slash Puritan time of our history, the colonial era was the Salem witch trials, um, you know, uh the Scarlet Letter, right? The you know about adultery. Yes. And um uh, you know, sinners in a hand in the hands of an angry god, that famous sermon by uh Jonathan Edwards, you know. But it's a it's a you know, you're all going to hell kind of a thing, you know. And it was it painted this picture of these people as being very very dogmatic, dangerous, you know. I mean, that that's what I took away, you know. So boy, it's it's such a it's it's such a battle. History is such a battle, you know, to it's a lot it's a battle between truth and lies. And you know, Satan doesn't want us to know the truth of our history. They weren't perfect by any stretch, but they were faithful and they lived out the truth of these principles of God's word, and they sought to do what honored him in building a civilization. And um I love what you just said to you, Naomi, about how when they died, like when Bradford died, it wasn't like he was there. Um he was disappointed, you know, in some ways. Um but but um I think that uh Hebrews 11 talks about this, the heroes of the faith, right? They're always looking forward to the fulfillment at a later time, you know, a city, the the the the the kingdom of God coming in the future. Um but they're gonna push in towards that, you know, and that's part of what it means to occupy. Yeah. Naomi, what other go ahead, look at it.
Luke AllenUh well, I was just gonna bring up that example of um private property as very obvious and simple application of a biblical truth. Um and how that actually affected people's lives and helped people. Um, this book has a ton of those types of examples, occupy till I come, uh, and a ton of action steps. Um one of my favorite ones in the book, and I mentioned this on our podcast with Daryl when we were talking about the book, but just the idea of hospitality and something we're all familiar with, uh, but really connecting that to our uh our call as Christians. And the book does that so beautifully and it's so simple. You know, hospitality is a very, very applicable concept. We're eating three meals a day, you know. We all have a house or somewhere that we live where we can invite people over to. So it just that type of application.
Hospitality As A Practical Kingdom Tool
Luke AllenUm, would you mind just unpacking for us a little bit of that concept of hospitality and how that really is a simple thing we can do in our call to occupy until Christ comes back?
SpeakerSure. Um, I mean, I think that like one thing just generally and practically that people can do, even if they're they don't have the opportunity to be hospitable in like a home, they don't have their own home or whatever, is just to assess their resources and then to ask the Lord, how can I best steward these resources? Like in the parable where the king was had given resources to his his servants to say, okay, I've got these resources now, how can I creatively make them grow so that God will be honored? I mean, that's like I think just a general action step that people can take. But when it comes to hospitality, my husband and I love hospitality, but we think of it in terms in in a kingdom context, in that we're building life on life with the objective of influencing families. One thing that's great is that if you have a decent family culture, you're putting it on display. You're putting your interactions with your children, your interactions with your spouse on display. But then also you can show the values of beauty, goodness, and truth by um even the meal that you that you prepare or the way the flowers that are on the table. Like there's beauty in a household, and uh there can be if you if you knit it into the culture, and um, and it can be like a living epistle read by all men, you know. Um, but also then what my husband and I love to do is take these biblical principles and start conversations with couples um asking them how those biblical principles are applying to their everyday life in the nitty-gritty of work life and family life, so as to help disciple them in their micronation. And so for what we've found is that hospitality is one of the greatest tools for exposing people to a kingdom culture within the home and then influencing them. Because who doesn't want a good meal, you know? So um, and uh and a warm welcome, and people want connection and and um and so you can you can really advance the kingdom that way.
Luke AllenYeah, we we say that quote all the time on the show beauty is the gateway to goodness and truth. And it's so simple when you just have a nice bowl of soup and a bunch of people that actually like each other around you. It's like, wow, this is beautiful. Yes, you know, I'm a and and then where that leads is to the deep, you know, to to God's truth ultimately. But it's such a simple application. I love that. Thanks for thanks for unpacking that for us.
Scott AllenWhat I like about that too, Naomi, is that when we think about, you know, I think Christians can be overwhelmed, especially when they see the, you know, because of the cut flower, you know, that this the times and the seasons that we're in that we talked about earlier, you can see so much brokenness around you and um you know, a level, uh a depth of brokenness, just layer upon layer that you sometimes feel overwhelmed. Like I don't even know how we begin to get out of this pit that we're in. And it can lead to hopelessness, you know, I think on on the part of some people. Like it's just, you know, the kind of resignation, hopelessness. But what I like about what you're saying with uh hospitality and even more broadly with family is you can do something about that particular sphere. You know, you can put the flag for the kingdom of God down in your home and say, as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. You know, Christ will reign here. And, you know, I can't control what happens, you know, around my block or my city or much less my nation, but I can, I can, you know, I can build a culture rooted in the worship of the living God right here in my family, and then invite people into that because when they see it and experience it, it's powerful. I mean, I had a I have testimony of that in my own life when I was a young Christian, going over to people's homes where there was a beauty, hot love, hospitality, you know, strong marriages. It just totally affected me, you know.
SpeakerLike irresistible.
Scott AllenYeah, it's irresistible. Like I want that. I want that kind of I want that for my life, you know. And it was just people opening up their homes, people that love the Lord and follow the Lord, you know, saying, Come, let me let me give you a little experience of this.
Reseeding The Next Generation With Truth
Luke AllenYeah. I know part of the um desire behind this book from Darrow was he's recognizing, like you said at the beginning, uh Naomi, there's a re it seems like there's a revival going on right now. And a lot of the people leading that revival are young men. Um and as Darrow often says, though, if if the revival doesn't lead to reformation, it's not really a revival. Um so this revival needs to go deeper, it needs to actually affect the way people are living their lives, their entire worldview. They need to be discipled and their their purpose here on this earth, their their kingdom, their kingdom um call. Uh and the subtitle of this book is Equipping the Next Generation to Break the Sacred Secular Divide and Disciple Nations at the Level of Culture. So pretty much unpacking that. But why the next generation and how specifically did you try to format the book in a way to reach I think it's my generation is really kind of the target audience. You know, Gen Z millennial uh men probably in particular, but you know, it's more broad than that.
SpeakerYeah, I mean I think we just have to reseed the civilization with the truths that are bit in this book. I mean, the truths that we do have a part to play that I mean the good news is that Jesus established his kingdom 2,000 years ago, and of the increase of his government and peace, there will be no end. And do we believe that? Because then we have we're riding on the waves of momentum of history, and we do find ourselves in a very interesting civilizational point, but we absolutely have to take hold of the seeds that were in the people, like William Bradford, like St. Patrick, and reseed our culture with these truths. And so I think this book was designed to, it was our best effort to do this, to put some a tool in the hands of the next generation. One of the major things is breaking the sacred secular divide and continuing. I mean, you know, I mean, I I've thought, well, one of the attacks on this book could be, oh, well, you guys want Christian domination or something like that. And I think what I would say is this is not a call for Christian domination. This is a call to hurry up and grow. Like, this is a call for like train now and train fully, like train in the implications, as you were saying, Scott, of first principles, that that there's an ablic implication of that principle for your work and for your family and for the HOA and for the you know, for your community. Everything. Like everything. Like, if you just take one principle, like stewardship, and just run with that, like, and really be faithful to steward well the things in front of you, our our world could change. And I love the um I love in World War II when they set up the victory gardens. You know, the they they they called people to um normal everyday people to plant a garden so that they would have a greater food food supply at home and be able to send food, I believe, to the troops, right? I mean, is that yeah, and and I just think about that and I'm like, well, all of us can set up a victory garden. Like Jesus is the king, we're making a statement with our lives and our homes and our and our work when we set up our own victory garden. And we're not alone. We might feel alone, but we're not. I mean, we have we're surrounded by a great cloud of many witnesses, and also, you know, there's there are people around who are doing the same. And I think it's just in it's it's in faith that we're doing this, you know, saying that it matters. Like my actions matter today in terms of reseeding us this next generation with the truths of the Bible.
Scott AllenAbsolutely. Yeah, there's uh you bring to mind that famous uh little short story by J.R.R. Tolkien, I think it's called Leaf by Nigel, and um, he talks about a tree and how very often we're you know focusing on our little leaf, and you know, that little leaf doesn't seem like it's very much, but uh on the other side we see a whole tree that God himself is growing, you know, and uh is kind of the story there behind that story. So it's kind of don't worry about the whole tree, just focus on that leaf. God's got it, you know, he's got that tree there, he's gonna he's gonna see the whole thing, you know, that that bigger picture. But but be faithful in the relationships, in the in the sphere of influence, in the gifts and the calling that he's given you to say, uh yes, I want to do what is true, right, good, beautiful, that honors the king in in these in this area that I have some responsibility over. Yeah. Um yeah, that and you we can just trust that God's got it, you know, he's got it. We don't have to um, you know, we don't we don't have to make it happen in our own strength, nor could we,
Where To Find The Book And Final Charge
Scott Allenyou know. So Naomi, the book is called uh Occupy Till I Come, Equipping the Next Generation to Break the Sacred Secular Divide and Disciple Nations at the Level of Culture. I want to encourage all of our listeners to check it out. You can go to the website occupy till I come book.com. You can read more about Naomi and Darrow, uh, read all the endorsements and um uh just learn a lot more about the book. I want to encourage you to learn and then go buy it and read it and use it. Uh so that's my call to all of you who are listening today. I'm so excited about this book. And we just want to thank you for the labor of love that you took to um to write it with Darrow. So thanks. Any final words as we wrap up today? Any final thoughts you'd like to leave with uh with the folks listening?
SpeakerUm, I just think I think that just like I was mentioning that when I became a Christian early on, I felt this sobriety about my role to play in this big picture. I that would be my prayer for everyone listening and for those who pick up the book or for the church just in general, is that we grab a hold of a sobriety, that my role matters, my little victory garden matters, and that we grow in skill and problem solving and management, and I mean all of these kind of business-y terms, but really it's just a matter of learning how to occupy till he comes in our small neck of the world, piece of the world. And um, if we all do that collectively, it's going to make a huge difference.
Scott AllenAmen. Amen. Well said. Well, Naomi, thanks so much for taking time to join us today on the podcast. It's been great. We look forward to the next time that we can have a discussion with you and just appreciate your passion and uh your example too, the way you live this out with uh with Austin and your family uh there in Wichita.
Speaker 3So thanks for having me.
Scott AllenGod bless you.
