The Discipleship Gap: Why So Few Christians Have a Biblical Worldview | Dr. Len Munsil

Episode Summary: 

What if the biggest problem facing the Church isn't a lack of activity, but a lack of measurable discipleship?

In this episode, we sit down with Dr. Len Munsil, President of Arizona Christian University, to explore a question most Christian institutions never ask: Are we actually forming a biblical worldview in the people we disciple? And as a reminder, “you cannot become a genuine disciple of Jesus without having a biblical worldview” (Dr. Barna).

Drawing on years of research conducted with George Barna and the Cultural Research Center, Dr. Munsil explains how ACU measures worldview formation and what the data reveals about students, pastors, churches, and Gen Z. We discuss why biblical worldview is about more than knowledge, the surprising gap between Bible engagement and worldview adoption, and why intentional discipleship is essential for lasting cultural transformation.

If you care about biblical worldview, Christian education, discipleship, and the future of the Church in America, this conversation offers both a sobering reality check and a reason for hope.

Who is Disciple Nations Alliance (DNA)? Since 1997, DNA’s mission has been to equip followers of Jesus around the globe with a biblical worldview, empowering them to build flourishing families, communities, and nations. 👉 https://disciplenations.org/

🎙️Featured Speaker: 

Dr. Len Munsil is the President of Arizona Christian University, where he has served since 2010. Under his leadership, ACU has experienced significant growth while strengthening its mission to equip students with a biblical worldview and prepare them to influence culture with truth. Working closely with George Barna and the Cultural Research Center, ACU has become a national leader in measuring biblical worldview development and spiritual growth among college students. Munsil is the author of Transforming Culture With Truth and is a frequent speaker on Christian higher education, worldview formation, and cultural engagement. He holds a Juris Doctor from Arizona State University and previously served as an attorney, public policy leader, educator, and author. 

📌 Recommended Links

     👉 Website: Arizona Christian University 

     👉 Worldview Quiz: Worldview Assessment - Cultural Research Center  

     👉 Gen Z and Faith: More Interest, Less Foundation

     👉 Study Finds Few Signs of U.S. Spiritual Renewal as Biblical Worldview Levels Remain Stalled

     👉 A Great Awakening movie | Official Website 

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📩 Ask us anything: info@disciplenations.org 

Episode Webpage

Transcript

Purpose Crisis And Hope

Dr. Len Munsil 0:02

75% of millennials don't have any sense of meaning or purpose in their life, which of course is leading to all of the mental health issues that we hear so much about these days among young people. The thing that we're learning from Barnes data generally is that life change, life transformation growth happens when there are personal relationships and accountability that's occurring one-on-one, one on two, one on three. I think there's been an emphasis on getting people saved, but not necessarily teaching them how to live and how to actually be salt and light in their family, in their church, in their community. And I I go back to the Great Commission, go therefore and make disciples, teaching them to obey all of the things that I've commanded you. Basically, Jesus' final instructions are make disciples. I mean, yes, you share the good news, but it's about it's the making of disciples. What leads to human flourishing is thinking and living biblically and living according to the plans of the God who created you.

Scott Allen 1:01

Your mindset should be like Gimli, you know, certainty of death, small chances of success. So what are we waiting for? Let's go out there and let's do it. What are we waiting for? Yeah, absolutely. That's what I hear from you. I hear, I hear that optimistic, hey, Jesus is, you know, he's defeated death on the cross and Satan, and let's go, let's go. We got work to do, and I love that.

Dr. Len Munsil 1:19

Uh, I'm incredibly optimistic and incredibly hopeful. And if you look back at everything I've done in life, my entire mission and goal in life is to be a part of the next great awakening. And so whether I was involved in the political arena or now in an educational context, that's what I live for. I want to see this happen. And I'm very optimistic that I'm going to be able to see it in my lifetime.

The Podcast Mission For Culture

Luke Allen 1:48

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Ideas Have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. As Christians, we all know that our mission is to spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. However, our mission, the Great Co-Mission, also involves working to transform our cultures so that they increasingly reflect the truth, goodness, and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected this second part of her mission. And today most Christians are having little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God. Hi guys, my name is Luke Allen, and I am joined today by my dad and our host, Scott Allen. Hi, Dad. How are you doing today? I'm so well, thank you, Luke. Great. Yeah, we uh we we're having fun because we just hopped off a great interview with Dr. Lynn Munsell uh from Arizona Christian University, the president of Arizona Christian University. He also uh as part of his role there works at the Cultural Research Center, which you'll probably be familiar with because of the work coming out of uh Dr. George Barna and all of his um biblical worldview, American biblical worldview inventories. Uh he is probably the preeminent um what is it called, statistician. Researcher, statistician, yeah, researcher probably. When it comes to biblical worldview. So obviously we track their work very closely and we're always interested to talk to any of them about their work, which was what today's episode was about. Dad, would you mind giving people a quick uh summary of our discussion with Dr. Munsil before we hop into it? Yeah, we largely talked about uh Dr.

Scott Allen 3:24

Barnes, you know, just the way that over the years he's really honed a um a survey that i it's is kind of aimed at measuring whether somebody has a biblical worldview or not. It's not an easy question to get at, but he's worked at it and worked at it and perfected it, and it's I think it's quite strong right now. It's not just it's not just measuring what somebody says they believe, but uh it it even gets into actions, behaviors, the way that they choose to live their lives. And I I've always said that's a much better way of measuring biblical worldviews, is uh you know, it's the fruit. You know, we talk about our our our biblical worldview tree. It's it's not so much what we say, but the the kind of lives that we live, the choices that we make, that's that's that's the proof of whether somebody uh has a worldview, a belief system that's aligned with biblical truth. And uh really uh Arizona Christian University has not just developed this for themselves, but and they're using this with their students. We'll talk about that. It's really helped them to uh kind of before the students enter uh the university and after they graduate to get a sense of are they making a difference? Are they helping disciple their students in a biblical worldview? And you'll hear what Dr. Munsil has to say about that. But uh they've made this available to the broader Christian public, which is really great, and something that you can access for your school, church, any kind of Christian ministry organization, discipleship group, uh to say, hey, are do we have a biblical worldview? And what could we do to improve and to strengthen our discipleship in biblical truth? So a lot of the discussion revolved around that today.

Luke Allen 4:58

Yeah, my my favorite part of the discussion was really the end. We ended on a really hopeful note, um, which was great because a lot of which I mentioned during the show, a lot of the research coming out of the cultural research center is kind of gloomy when it comes to the state of discipleship in America. Um just looking at one of their stats, uh, this is an overview of the last oh thirty thirty plus years, uh, according to Dr. Barna. Uh in 1994, 12% of all American adults had a biblical worldview. Uh by 2020, that number had dropped by half. So only six percent of American adults had a biblical worldview in 2020. And just since 2020, in the last six years, it's dropped down to four percent of American adults have a biblical worldview. So it's not looking great for anyone like us who works in the area of discipleship, specifically in the area of a biblical worldview. There's a lot of work to do. Job security, Luke. What are you talking about? Hey. That's a good point. But I really just love the end point. So I hope all you guys listening stick around till the end because the I mean the end takeaway was really the message of Charlie Kirk's life, which was to get married, have children, build a legacy, pass down your values, pursue the eternal, and seek true joy. So it's a really optimistic ending to the episode. So again, I hope you guys enjoy this episode with Dr. Len Munsell. So let's hop into it.

Meet Dr. Len Munsell

Scott Allen 6:20

Well, we're so excited today to have uh a close friend of the Disciple Nations Alliance um on the podcast. Dr. Len Munsell is with us again. Uh Len Munsell is the president of Arizona Christian University in Phoenix. And together with his wife Tracy and um Dr. George Barna, they lead the Cultural Research Center at ACU, which is having a really significant impact on the church. I just am so appreciative for what you're doing at the Cultural Research Center, Len, and obviously what you're doing at at uh ACU. So just welcome. It's great to have you back on the podcast. It's been a while.

Dr. Len Munsil 7:00

Thank you, Scott. Great to be back with you. I I appreciate the uh the opportunity.

Scott Allen 7:05

Just a little bit more about you, Len, and feel free to fill in. There's going to be lots of gaps. But um, for those of you who uh are not familiar with uh Dr. Munsil, he has a background in law and politics. Um and in 2006 he was the Republican nominee for the governor of Arizona. Um and he's been a very successful president of Arizona Christian University, which has expanded every year since he has been president, both in size, but even more importantly than that, in terms of just the way that it's um taking its mission to disciple its students in a biblical worldview very seriously. Um throughout his life, he's emphasized the integration of faith into culture and education. And uh, anyways, beyond that, he's a he's a father of a wonderful large family. And now, how many grandchildren do you have, Lynn?

Dr. Len Munsil 7:59

We just had number 21 a few weeks ago. Wow. Yeah, 21 grandchildren. Oh, wow.

Scott Allen 8:04

It's called Discipling Nations. I love that. That's so great. 21. That's wow. That's can that's wonderful. Congratulations. Thank you.

Dr. Len Munsil 8:14

We're we're pretty happy about it.

Scott Allen 8:16

I'm sure you are. I'm sure you are. Are they around the country or are they mostly in in Phoenix area with you, or where are they out?

Speaker 8:22

Uh uh by God's grace, 16 of them are in the valley in the Phoenix area. So we've got four in Tennessee and and a new new one in the Washington, D.C. area with a military daughter and son-in-law. So uh so we have five that are uh that are out of state, but actually come out uh in May. We're all gathering in uh Colorado for uh to celebrate our 40th wedding anniversary. So all of them. Oh, congratulations. And spouses and all the grandkids will be there. You know, we're looking forward to that.

Scott Allen 8:52

That's wonderful. Congratulations. That's great. Uh Len, talk a little bit about just before we get into the, we want to talk mainly today about the work that you're doing with Dr. Barna and Tracy Munsell, your wife, um, at the Center for Um the Center for Cultural Research, um, cultural research center, I should say. Um, but just I'd like to hear a little bit about your your vision and the work that you've done at Arizona Christian University. These are these have been difficult times for a lot of our Christian universities. Um, you know, coming kind of on the wake of the woke revolution. Um so many schools really struggled and started drifting in in kind of a a cultural direction. Um it's been hard to find actually, you know, uh historic Christian universities who've held fast and true. And I know that you've worked really hard to see that Arizona Christian University is one of those. What are some of the things that you've done, you know, uh to do that? What are some of the commitments that you've had? And especially if you could even touch on the research now that you're kind of using from with Dr. Barna in terms of the student body there at ACU?

Dr. Len Munsil 10:05

Well,

Rebuilding A Christian University

Speaker 10:06

let me let me uh back up a little bit and maybe because I think this is relevant to answer your question about what we've done at ACU. And you you mentioned that I have a background in the in the political realm. Uh so I come at it as an attorney, not as an academic, uh as an attorney who was used to engaging uh the culture with biblical truth. So I mean I've, you know, uh, you know, I started off for 10 years, uh, well, for five the first five years out of law school, uh I worked for a guy named Alan Sears who went on later to found Alliance Defending Freedom. Uh but I started off in the fight against pornography, which is you know brutally hard. Um spiritual warfare. Uh you're debating, you know, uh ACLU lawyers and you know, kind of shadowy organized crime figures that were the money behind the porn industry that I think now we're finally making some headway against, you know, um, with with the with the whole effort with human trafficking. Um so I went from there and and founded Arizona's Family Policy Council. Uh, and so was an advocate in Arizona for biblical values on life and on marriage, uh, on educational freedom, religious liberty within the state of Arizona, and and led that organization for um for a decade. Uh, and then uh won a Republican primary for governor of Arizona in the year 2006, which so I've I've likened that to winning a first-class ticket on a Titanic um 2006 was was was uh was an awful year to be a uh first-time uh Republican candidate. That's the it's the only election in American history where no Republican defeated a Democrat incumbent, not just for governor, not just for Senate, but for Congress. Not a single seat flipped that year. That's how widespread the blue wave wipeout was. And I was running against a a popular incumbent, so that didn't go well. Um but um all that to say, I never, in all of those experiences, had never experienced the level of spiritual warfare uh as when I came to this little Bible college known then as Southwestern College, that was uh fighting for its life um in the Phoenix area. Uh and a number of people involved in leadership of the school had decided that it probably couldn't make it. Uh and I came in as an interim president, uh committed for two years, and um discovered in those first in those first couple of years that the people who had concluded the school couldn't make it were right. Um the the challenge of small colleges um was so significant. Um and it's an echo primarily an economic challenge. But what struck me in those first few years of the school was that because I I came in with the idea that you know we need a different vision, we need a broader academic vision, um, we need a different um the school's mindset, uh, their sort of their slogan was intentionally Christian, which um is good as far as it goes, but I wanted us to be externally focused, not not about us, but but about the rest of the world that we wanted to engage with. And so we we came with a new vision of transformed culture with truth, the idea that we're gonna take in God's truth into us and then send out uh young men and women to be salt and light in our culture. So we changed a lot of things initially, and during that time of just a daily, almost daily wanting to give up, to quit. Um I realized it took me a while, but I realized that's not the voice of God, that's the voice of the enemy. And if the enemy is working that hard to try to get me to give up on this little college with 350 students, he must want to do something really amazing and really spectacular. And so that's been the story over the last 15 years as we've gone from a few hundred students to 1,600 last fall to significant influence. Talked about seven years ago we recruited George Barno to come to ACU. Um, and he was attracted by the clarity of our mission and vision that we want to make disciples here. Um we want to take young men and women who are followers of Jesus and grow them and send them out as leaders uh for not just for the body of Christ, but for the world. Uh and we want to send them into every area that has influence in our culture. So it was a very clear, very specific mission and yet um incredibly challenging. And so uh I guess you know, for me it's been incredibly faith-building to see God show up over and over again. Because I think when you have success in life and you come into something like this, sometimes you think, well, if I just work harder and if I just you know make this contact or make this connection or pursue this initiative, um, you know, we're gonna have success. And in this role, and certainly in my first decade, I reached multiple points where I knew uh no matter what I did, uh, no matter who I called, no matter uh no matter all of my best efforts were going to be insufficient uh unless God showed up in a significant way. And so I got to watch God show up when I was out of options, when I was out of ideas, when I was out of energy, um, and sustain the school and you know do miraculous things through people, through, you know, amazing, extraordinary, you know, generous people who came to ACU either to to work here or to support what we were doing at critical moments. And um, and so uh we just we didn't quit, we just kept persevering, and then God just showed up in so many different ways over time. And then and that's when you realize it's not you. It's not, I mean, God's given me certain gifts and I'm thankful for them, but ultimately this is his place. And so, you know, when I look back now, it's very gratifying to know that boy, it would have been so easy to give up in those first few years. And in fact, many people have told me, you need to get out of there, or people that worked at the school that said that we can't make it and would leave. And so then you're trying to do it with fewer leaders than what you had when you started. Um would have been very easy to do that. And I'm thankful um that God gave our board of trustees and me and other people involved in leadership the strength to continue through really challenging times for small colleges in the higher ed space. And uh by God's grace, uh here we are. And uh again, it's his place. So we're we we see that I think our biggest growth may still be ahead of us uh as we're watching some momentum really start to develop now around what God's doing at ACU, uh, with the intentional commitment to biblical worldview development and discipleship.

Scott Allen 17:15

Talk

The Survey That Measures Worldview

Scott Allen 17:16

a little bit about one of the things I appreciate since you brought George Barna on. And George has been, you know, really the premier researcher on biblical worldview. You know, he's done such a good job over the years of just perfecting and honing, you know, his surveys on whether or not people have a biblical worldview. Um and you've then incorporated that with your student body, right? You have kind of a uh at the beginning, kind of freshman year and graduate type of, you know, beginning and after. Um and uh I really like that because it's one thing to say, hey, we're committed, you know, to have the right slogans and principles in your statements. Uh, you know, we're committed to discipling in a biblical worldview to transform culture. But it's another thing to measure that because that kind of holds you to it a little bit, right? And um tell us a little bit about that. You know, what what does that look like and and what what what are the results of that show for Arizona Christian University?

Dr. Len Munsil 18:16

Well, it really does um expose whether you're doing what you say you're doing for parents, for donors, et cetera. And we did not know for sure what we would find. But um, to be honest, George Barner will tell you that was one of the things that attracted him to ACU, uh, to where he wanted to be a part of this. He's worked at a number of Christian colleges and seminaries, and never before had he been asked, I want to find out how we're actually doing. Are we actually making disciples? Are we actually growing people in the faith? And uh so the first thing I asked him to do was develop a survey um to measure biblical worldview among our students. And that all of our students, by the way, as as uh as he likes to point out, um, this is not a it's it's it's not a poll where you're measuring a few and then extrapolating out from it. This is the survey is taken by every ACU student. And if you if you come to ACU and you do your four years degree here and you will take it five times, you will take it before you ever set foot on campus and take a class. You'll take it at the end of your first year, at the end of your second year, at the end of your third year, and then as you graduate. So we just had uh we haven't we don't have the data yet, but we just you know had all of our students um taking it last week before we had commencement on Friday night, all of our graduates. And we'll have that data later this summer. Um but uh what it is, it's it you know, the one of the great things about the way George measures biblical worldview, and obviously your audience knows that that's it's simply uh uh about thinking and living biblically. And George measures both. Um, some places measure what you say you believe, but George measures that, Auntie measures how you're actually living to get a full picture.

Scott Allen 20:03

And I so appreciate that, yeah. Uh uh because I I I've noticed that a lot of you know, when people talk about measuring or querying biblical worldview, it's it's often kind of what you say you believe. And it's easy to kind of have the right answers in some way. But George has done a good job of bringing questions into his surveys that talk about how you live, you know, what what do you do? Because that's a that's a much better measure of whether you actually have a biblical worldview or not. Yeah.

Speaker 20:32

Well, it is, and uh, and and and so he brings that element to it. For in our case, um it's it's over 90 questions that these students answer. Um it takes them a half hour to 40 minutes. Um like I said, they'll take it five times while they're here. And um, we got the first really longitudinal study. We started this six years ago, but we now have two full years, and after we get this year's results, we'll have three full years of essentially a longitudinal study that tracks kids as they come through the university from year to year. And so the results were were so much better than I'd even hoped and prayed for. Um, that now that's it's an essential part of our marketing. Um, you know, I'll just give you um a couple of examples. Um one of them that that George jumped on right away because you know he he recognized um when he did a biblical world worldview survey of pastors, um, that that many pastors don't have uh a strong biblical worldview. And so what what we discovered is that the typical ACU graduate has a stronger biblical worldview than the typical Christian pastor in America, which is pretty remarkable. These kids coming out at 21, 22, 23 years old, they're also three times as likely to have a biblical worldview. Our graduates at 21 or 22, three times as likely to have a biblical worldview as the average theological. Defined born-again Christian in America. In other words, the backbone of the evangelical church would be those that are theologically defined born-again Christians. And our graduates are much more likely, three times more likely, to have a biblical worldview than the backbone of the evangelical church. So we're going to be sending out graduates who are going to seed the church with a maturity at young ages that I think is going to have profound influence on our culture. Some of the other things that really that really stood out to me, and this may be is one of the most significant, is because we're what's called a covenantal school. And that means that to attend Arizona Christian University, part of the admissions process, whether you're a student athlete or whether you're an honor student or a music student, you are queried about your faith in Christ. You have to have a testimony of faith in Jesus Christ in order to be admitted. We do not admit kids who say, oh, I'm open, I'm interested, but I don't know what I believe right now. Many schools do that. Many Christian schools do that. That's not our mindset. We're about discipling Christians. We're about iron sharpens iron. And we want to put them in an environment where they're surrounded by other believers and grown in the faith. So we so that's part of our admissions requirement. And we know from Barna's own survey that there's always going to be a handful that fool you, but it's well over 94% of our studies that meet the theological George's George Barney has a pretty rigorous definition of a theological born-again Christian. So it's not somebody who says, Yeah, I'm a Christian and that's good enough. So 94% or more meet his rigorous definition. They're genuinely saved when they get here. But they're thinking and living only a couple percentage points more biblically than their peers. So they're saved, but they've been mostly catechized by the culture as opposed to the Bible or the church. And so those are that's our incoming students. They're they're saved Christians, but they're very young in terms of from a discipleship standpoint. So they come in essentially, as George described it, and this is one of his uh powerhouse slides that he shares now when he talks about what God is doing at ACU. They come in as believers who are basically one-to-one thinking and living like their peers. By the time they graduate from Arizona Christian University, they are 28 to 1 more likely to have a biblical worldview than their peers. So in four years, we go from one to one to 28 to one. Uh and so we, you know, for years, we've been seeing anecdotally what was happening, the transformation that was happening for our students. But now we have actual data of every student. Again, not a survey, not a not a not a guessing of what's actually happening, but we're seeing that every year they're at ACU, they become more committed to their faith. And again, if they stay four years, um it from one to one to twenty eight to one is a remark, remarkable movement. And of course, as you would imagine, that carries itself out because we also teach cultural engagement. We teach that the that if you're a follower of Jesus and you believe in the Bible, you're gonna believe that life is sacred and needs to be protected. You're you're you know, you're going to believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. And so what we also see in in conjunction or in uh in alignment with uh the spiritual growth is that kids that come to ACU, they not only get more committed to Jesus, they get more, they become more conservative, which is the opposite, as you know, is of what happens at most colleges in America, and sadly, even many Christian colleges, uh, where where kids will go and they'll they'll, you know, the the cultural influences are so powerful, moving them away from God and and and sort of to the left into the secular mindset um that you lose a lot of kids in college, even if they're at a, you know, a mildly Christian uh place. So here, you know, and we can talk about how how to get there, but but what we see is that kids in their four years at ACU, they become more pro-life, they become more pro-marriage, uh, and they double in their opposition to socialism, as unbiblical, uh, while they're at ACU, which is remarkable, especially in light of some of the other data that's come out recently about Gen Z and their embrace of socialism. So we're we're cutting against that cultural tie that Arizona Christian University in a very significant way to see to see such positive movements spiritually and even an application of biblical worldview to culture um happening despite all of the pressures in their generation coming the other direction.

Mentoring That Drives Real Change

Scott Allen 26:57

Lynn, what are what are the um you talked about the fruit that you're seeing through the data that uh you know the research data that Dr. Barnes doing in the in the lives of your students, which is really encouraging. Um what is the process by which you're forming and shaping and seeing that change? What are some of the main drivers in terms of just your approach to education, the curriculum, the the pedagogy, however you want to describe it? What's what's driving that change that may be different than other Christian universities are doing? And I one of the great things about that kind of research that you're doing is I'm sure it helps you, it forms you, going, well, we're a little weak over here, a little bit, you know, we need to tone up over here, and it it it it's gotta have a circular effect back into the way you're educating your students, doesn't it? Yeah.

Speaker 27:44

It does. That's exactly right. In fact, uh I was I was gonna mention that um, and I want to answer your question, because that's a very important question about how is it that we've been able to achieve that. But we do take data from this and learn from it every year. And so, for example, one of the first results that came back a couple of years ago, we recognized that that our our students, although they were saved believers and they were growing in their faith, they had a very fuzzy understanding of the Trinity. And so we actually added extra elements of our Bible classes, which all students, every ACU grad, even the ones that go to Harvard Law School or Medical School, they have a minor in biblical studies. So everybody gets 18 hours of Bible. Okay. So we started shoring up those elements in our Bible courses to say, okay, this is an area where they're not fully understanding um, you know, God in three persons, and we needed to help them understand that. And we will do that every year when we look at the data. Is there a deficiency in some area that we need to hit? We're gonna break it down even more in the years to come as to our various programs from political science, pre-law to pre-med to um education to business. Um, you know, are there weak spots in our curriculum that we need to shore up? But I would say the thing that we're learning from Barnes data generally is that life change, life transformation growth happens when there are um personal relationships and accountability and mentoring that's occurring, one-on-one, one on two, one on three. And so what we've done at ACU over time is I think we've sort of over time kind of weeded out uh either the faculty members or coaches or administrators who didn't really care much about discipleship or mentoring. They've kind of, you know, they they've they've they've mostly, you know, left at this point. We've always, you know, we we've had the one or two faculty members that, you know, they're just, I'm gonna do my thing and I'm, you know, and if you if you're not up to my standards, we're gonna flunk you all out of here. No real heart to mentor and grow the students to help them to get them excited about the subject instead of saying, you know, just I've got these standards that, you know, um, and so so they they've largely self-selected out at this point. And so what we see with our faculty and with our um coaches and with our administrators and our security guards is that we have people here at ACU who love students, who want to see young men and women walk with Christ. And you combine that with the students and their own desire to grow in their faith. That's why they chose ACU in most cases. Um, it just builds this community that everyone is supporting everyone in this journey of life and in the walk of faith. And it, and I I've described it this way. I've said, you know, look, to parents, sometimes uh we're in the fifth largest city in the country in the Phoenix area. Um, you know, if if your student comes here and they're looking for trouble, they're gonna be able to find it. But what you're gonna find at ACU compared to many other colleges, even Christian colleges, is that the peer pressure among the students is to walk with Christ. So, you know, if there's peer pressure, it's not gonna be to go go out and party and get in trouble. It's gonna be, no, you don't want to do that. Because look, that doesn't bring honor to God. And we're here to, you know, bring honor to God through our bodies, through how we live. And so what happens is we see kids that are maybe for the first time, they've put their faith in Christ, but they're being challenged as to how they're living. What are the things they're consuming? What are the things that they're doing? And do those things line up with scripture? And so um they look, you know, they learn about grace here. Um, we're not trying to catch kids and get them in trouble. We're trying to help them understand that if you genuinely want to walk with Christ, um, you need to, you need to think a certain way and live a certain way uh that aligns with scripture. And um and so it's it's a but I I guess I would go back to, you know, part of it is our hiring practices. You know, we we we want to know when we hire people, but number one, the not not just okay with the fact that we're openly, you know, pro-life and pro-marriage and you know, believe that there's male and female and and that we're not gonna be either apologetic about telling the truth about those things um or weak knee about standing for those things. We're gonna be very outspoken and bold about it. Um, so we want to hire people that are in alignment with that, but that are motivated by it, that are, that are thankful. We're seeing that more and more. We're we're uh we, you know, when we have an opening now for a faculty member, the level of application that we're getting is unbelievable because so many of them have been beaten up, even at Christian colleges, for standing for biblical truth in areas that are culturally uh unpopular right now. And so, so they're when they see there's a place that, no, you're actually your president, your administration, and your board are not only going to back you, we're gonna we're gonna stand and applaud when you take a stand in our culture for biblical truth. Uh, that's who we are at ACU. And more and more over time, that's who we're attracting. Um, and and that just makes a huge difference. And uh, in the this the students know it. Um, and uh the relationships that develop, the mentoring relationships uh are significant in helping them change how they're living uh Fenty.

Scott Allen 33:26

All right. Well, that's really helpful.

Barna Findings That Shock Leaders

unknown 33:28

Dr.

Scott Allen 33:28

Munsil, I'd like to shift gears and um talk a little bit about just the the broader culture, um, kind of beyond ACU here a little bit, um, and the research that George Barna has done, you know, he's always putting out such incredible research. And I want to encourage all of our listeners to go to the website, uh, the Cultural Research Center at ACU, where you can get the latest on uh Dr. Barna's uh research and findings of the broader Christian community uh in the United States. It's fascinating. I mean, if you had to say, was there one thing that came out of the recent studies over the last few years that has surprised you the most, Dr. Munsell? What what what would that be?

Speaker 34:07

I would think of two things. When you when you I mean, there's a lot, but I guess the two one I already mentioned, and that was the low level of biblical worldview commitment by pastors in America, and especially the two areas I want to highlight. You know, the senior pastors had the highest incidence of biblical worldview, but it was still less than 50%. Um, but uh I think it was uh children's pastors. Now these are the these are the ones, you know, as George will say, most of your worldview development occurs before the age of 13. Uh, which by the way, I need to bring that back because this is the thing that I would get frustrated with George about. So I want to tell you what he said at our at our uh dinner event uh a couple weeks ago. Um basically he said that Arizona Christian University is the best biblical worldview redevelopment program he has ever seen in 40 years. So because we're dealing with adults that are past the age of 13, obviously. And he he's just never seen, in fact, he what he said at this dinner is that he's been looking his whole life for a place like ACU. And that's why he's still here after seven years and doesn't plan to go anywhere. So we're grateful for that. But um, but to that point, the first 13 years are critically important. And so the children's programs at churches, uh, to think that only 12%, one in eight of children's pastors have a biblical worldview. Uh, and then executive pastors, the sort of the business guys that come in, 4%, they have a lower incidence of biblical worldview than uh than the average American. Uh so uh so that those things were frightening. The other thing that I wanted to mention was just really deeply challenging, uh disturbing is um we did a really detailed study and actually produced a book about millennials. And the the portion that was so challenging, uh we have eight, eight adult kids. They're all millennials. And uh and I'm thankful to God that they don't experience this at the same level. But in their generation, uh 75% of millennials uh don't have any sense of meaning or purpose in their life, uh, which of course is leading to all of the mental health issues that we hear so much about these days among young people. Um that they're, as George would say, they're trying to figure out why to get out of bed in the morning. Why am I here? And and all of that comes back to, you know, um who you are in Christ. If you have a biblical worldview, you have meaning, you have purpose every day that you live. And without it, and you pull that out, it's it you you pull that string, everything sort of collapses. And so I think those were those are a couple of things that were very deeply um concerning uh in terms of the leadership of the church uh and and then just the consequences of not having a biblical worldview for young people and the mental health crisis that they're in.

Salvation Is Not Automatic Discipleship

Scott Allen 36:58

Can I uh uh let me read a verse to you, Dr. Munsen? I'd love your reaction to this, because I I think this is indic uh indicative of the way a lot of Christians uh think. Um this is uh Colossians chapter one, verses five and six. And Paul says uh of this you have heard before in the word of truth, the gospel, which has come to you as indeed in the whole world and is bearing fruit and increasing, as also do as also it does among you since the day that you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth forever. And I think the idea here that um Paul is communicating is that of course the gospel, the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ is spreading. He's talking about it spreading around the world and it's bearing fruit and it's increasing. And I think the way a lot of people think is that once somebody is saved, they believe in the gospel and put their faith in Jesus Christ, they'll automatically uh have a biblical worldview. And yet it doesn't seem like there's a connection. Could you speak to that? Because I think there's some confusion there.

Speaker 38:02

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think uh I think you're right about that. Uh I think there's been an emphasis on getting people saved, um, but not necessarily teaching them, you know, how to live and how how to actually be salt and light, the the effect that they're to have in their family, in their church, in their community. Um and I but I I go back to the to the Great Commission, you know, uh go therefore and make disciples, uh, teaching them to obey all of the things that I've commanded you. But basically, Jesus, his final instructions are um are make disciples. It it's it's it's not, I mean, yes, you share the good news, but it's about it's the making of disciples. What leads to human flourishing is thinking and living biblically and living according to the plans of the God who created you. And Jesus right there says, you've got to teach them, you know, you you've got to uh all of the things that I've that I've commanded you to do, you have to teach them. And that's what really what we're talking about. When we talk about discipleship, when we talk about having a biblical worldview, it's learning how to live, how to think, and how to live biblically. And um, sometimes uh after the point of of salvation, um we we lose sight that there's a whole lot more to do to understand, you know, to grow in an understanding and a knowledge of God and his ways. And uh it's always been remarkable to me. I I think when I got saved, I looked at it and well, what else would there be to do? I kind of had that mindset like, well, of course, I need to figure out how to live now. And, you know, as a young man, there were some specifically thinking uh a certain way about a certain issue and then reading scripture and going, oh, well, I you know, it doesn't really matter what I think, or all these learned scholars what they think. What matters is what God thinks. So I need to adopt God's perspective on that, not the one that makes sense to me. Um, because I didn't create the universe, so maybe I ought to listen to the one who did. So, you know, but so to me it was always kind of obvious that you you need to read and understand the Bible and then apply its principles to your life. But I don't think it is obvious to everyone. Um, and so you know, we we've got to help with that, and we've got to help people understand um how to how to live, how to think biblically. And I think, frankly, with many young people, here's the other thing that I that I think uh is critically important to understand, and that is that the culture that pulls us away from God is incredibly powerful. It's incredibly, they're really smart, clever, powerful people who are creating the media messaging and the political messaging. Um, and and it's designed oftentimes to appeal to a shallow understanding of Christian principles. Um, and and so if you don't have a deep understanding of Christianity and what God says about certain things, um, you're gonna be easily led uh astray by this powerful messaging that's coming. And you know, I I a really simple but classic example of that in our culture right now would be our view on sexual morality and in particular homosexuality, where um the side that's promoting doing things opposed to the way of God leans on the idea of, you know, well, love is love and it's all about love. Um, and and and that you know, the correct answer to that is uh to to someone who's making that argument to defend sexual inloyality, is to say, okay, so you know that from God, God is love, you know that from him, and yet um you're essentially arguing that you are more loving than God, because he also says this. He says that to be loving, you encourage people to um flee sexual immorality, to um preserve sexuality for marriage between one man and one woman for life. And and you're essentially arguing that you um that that you are more loving and more understanding of what love is than the person you're citing, than then the than the God that you're citing um for for what love is. Um it doesn't stack up, but if you have just this surface understanding that, well, I'm a Christian, and that means that we've got to be loving to understand that that when you don't um speak up about what is true in love, speak the truth in love, you're doing one of the least loving things that you can do, which is to um let people think that what they're doing is is perfectly fine when it's leading to the destruction of their of their bodies and their souls.

Scott Allen 42:54

Well, yeah, I wrote a book here recently called Ten Words to Transform Our Broken World. And love is one of the words I focused on. These are words that have been redefined in the culture. And today uh love is uh largely understood as um uh affirmation, kind of acceptance, non-judgmental acceptance of whatever somebody believes. Um that's the loving thing to do. And uh the Bible, of course, is God's word, and uh y this is his word, this is his character, love, and he defines love, and it's not that way. It's not affirming people regardless of what they believe or what they do. Uh so um part of biblical word training has to be training in the definition, the true definition of these what I call load-bearing words. Yeah. Uh load-bearing words about culture.

Speaker 3 43:44

Luke, I want to uh Yeah, go ahead.

Scott Allen 43:46

I'm sorry.

Speaker 43:49

No, that's fine. Go ahead.

Scott Allen 43:51

Yeah, Luke, I wanted to bring you in. I know you've got uh some questions you'd like to ask Dr. Munsil as

Gen Z Bible Reading Versus Worldview

Scott Allen 43:56

well.

Luke Allen 43:56

So I definitely do. But I do have an eye on the clock. And this this time's flying by. I um I I am interested, I I'm so fascinated by the work that you guys are doing down there at the Cultural Research Center. I always read the reports and every time I finish them, I'm kind of bummed because the the news about the Christian the state of Christianity in America is not great. And the reports are often the you know the percentage points of Americans that hold a biblical worldview is going down and down and down. And I at the same time, I'm also pretty optimistic. I I'm a very optimistic person, so I'm always looking for ways to boost that up. And I everyone right now is saying, hey, there's a revival in America, there's a revival in America, you know, post Charlie Kirk, there's a revival in America. We just had um Greg Kokel from Stand of Reason join a few weeks ago. He's like, everywhere I go, Bibles are selling out, young men are coming back to churches. Dr. George Barna's previous group he worked for, the Barna group, recently said that amongst my generation Gen Z males, 54% of us are reading our Bibles. This is just all of American Wells. 54% are reading their Bibles on a regular basis. But then I go over and I read from the Cultural Research Center, Gen Z, only one percent of us has a biblical worldview. So on one hand, we're we're getting back to church, we're reading our Bibles. There's not a biblical worldview, though. And according to Dr. Barna, if you don't have a biblical worldview, you're not actually a disciple. Those things are synonymous. So uh uh two questions. One is why is there such a drop-off, which I know we've already talked about a little bit, but especially amongst Gen Z, because it's just a stark contrast between this same group that everyone said is in the revival, also hardly any biblical worldview. Question one, question two is you know, how do we change this? You know, and not all of us can go to ACU, unfortunately, but uh what other things can we do to make a change here?

Speaker 45:53

So I uh from the beginning, just to you you referenced ACU, it's just from the beginning, I'll say that my my interest has never been about ACU. It's about how do we advance the kingdom. And so that's why you see us doing things like providing this research through the Cultural Research Center. What I would say about ACU that I would want to hopefully encourage people with is that we have established a proof of concept that an immersive environment surrounded by Christians who want to mentor and disciple young people and spend time with them and you know, whether it's in uh in the classroom or outside of the classroom or in an app on the athletic field or in the music program or the honors program, wherever we go at this school, in this immersive environment, we have people that want to want to make disciples, that want to mentor young people. Um and so we have proof of concept that this actually can work. And so part of what we're trying to do at ACU now, and how I want to get the word out on the success that we're having here, is not so that everyone, as you said, and not everybody can send their kids to ACU, and we're only hitting a certain uh segment anyway. But what we're starting to do with our Worldview survey, and you can you can get it at ACUWorldview.com, uh, is we now have dozens of churches around the country, Christian schools, K through 12 schools, uh, and even other Christian colleges. And we want, we want this. Even if it creates competition for us, we're okay with that if it advances the kingdom. And so what we're we have dozens of churches and schools and colleges now that are going to start implementing and creating a culture of measuring how are we doing in making disciples, how are we doing in developing biblical worldview among our congregants or among our students? And if we can create that and get the word out that, hey, this works, here's the things that we're doing at ACU, but take this to your church, take this to your Christian school, take this to your Christian college, and implement some of these practices that we put into place here, we really can make a much broader difference than just one uh Christian college can do. So, so that's number one. Why, why do the indicate, why are they so different? Um, I would say a couple of things. Number one, uh, I'm incredibly optimistic uh and incredibly hopeful. And if you look back at my everything I've done in life, going back to when I was an undergraduate at Arizona State University, getting ready to go to law school, my entire mission and goal in life was to be a part of the next great awakening. And so whether I was involved in the political arena or now in an educational context, that's what I'm that's what I live for. I want to see this happen. Um and so, and I'm very optimistic that I'm going to be able to see it in my lifetime. Um, as far as the data goes with biblical worldview, biblical worldview development is a process. It doesn't happen overnight. It occasionally will happen at the point of conversion. Um, I think, for example, of uh uh the the the woman who was the was Jane Rowe in Roe v. Wade um was a big abortion advocate her entire life, and then she came to faith in Christ, and then she became pro-life. It it flipped very quickly for her and when she understood um what it meant to be a follower of Jesus. Uh Norma McCourby, I think was her name.

Scott Allen 49:15

Right, right, that's right.

Speaker 49:17

So it so there can be a radical shift in your thinking and living immediately upon getting saved, but more often, especially with as powerful as the cultural messages are, it's a process that occurs. So um our own data, George's data, does met has measured an uptick in church attendance and Bible reading. Um, what he would say though is if that is not capitalized upon by the church and and that the people that are now reading their Bible, that's a very positive thing. You know, God's word never returns void. Um, and so that's a very positive thing. The fact that they're in church and maybe hearing biblical teaching is a very positive thing. But if they don't begin to develop a biblical worldview, if we don't seize that opportunity, can it turn into a genuine widespread uh revival? So um, so there is even in our data at CRC, we see some positive signs. What we haven't seen yet, to your point, is a change in the level of biblical worldview among Gen Z. But that is more, I would say that's more of a lagging indicator of what's happening. So I agree. I do think there are some really positive things that are that are happening. Um, but is there a full-blown revival yet? Uh, there's not a lot of evidence of that from a biblical worldview standpoint. And to be honest, when it really happens, I don't think we'll debate about whether it's happening or not. I mean, if you look back at the Great Awakenings that have occurred either in the colonies prior to um uh the American Revolution, great movie out about that right now called The Great Awakening, that is definitely worth seeing. And I'm not usually a big fan of faith movies, but it's incredibly well scripted, well acted, um, very few uh cheesy moments in it. Um but uh when you look back at the cultural influence and and even think of Great Britain in the 18th century with uh what occurred there, um, not only did it affect it affected every sphere of society. So, so the uh crimes dropped, alcoholism, gambling addiction, um, prostitution, um, it affected the laws, uh, abolition of slavery, the uh reform of of a number of other uh uh uh governmental influence policies based on biblical values. All of those things happened, and it was really obvious because it hit everyone. The churches went from being pretty empty to pretty full. Um, and I don't think we're there yet to where we wouldn't have to debate whether it's happening or not. Um, but I think we can get there. The

Demographic Hope Through Family Formation

Speaker 51:50

other thing, if I could mention one other thing that makes me incredibly optimistic, um um it's sort of sad in some ways, is as you probably know, we have a demographic collapse on our hands. We have a fertility crisis that is worldwide, civilizational. And when you have a biblical worldview, and a biblical worldview is taught, um, you understand that the very first command that God gave us is to be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and govern it. Very first thing he told us to do. And it doesn't matter if you're in adverse economic circumstances, um uh that that that still applies. So, so when the Israelites are sent into Babylon, into captivity, uh, what does God say? He says, you know, not just seek the welfare of the city, but you know, build houses, plant fields, um, get married, have kids, get get spouses for your kids so that they get married and you have grandkids. I mean, it's like it's the same message um because God is pro-life and he created us and he wants us to to flourish. And so we have completely lost that. And I would argue um uh among many Christians who are not young Christians are not operating from a biblical worldview perspective, that that's this is not um an optional thing as a follower of Christ, um, that we should be open to having children. And so this is why I'm optimistic. If you look at who's having children right now, it's the people with a biblical worldview. They're having large families. Um, and and that's where our future kids are gonna come from. So there's gonna come a point when it's gonna turn around. And we're already, um, if you look at the data of you, you just don't see pro-abortion liberals or LGBTQ advocates having six, seven, eight kids. It's just not happening. So um there actually there's actually statistical data on how many conservative Christian families their kids become conservative Christian versus sort of secular liberal families and their kids becoming secular liberals. They do a little bit better, uh, sadly, at keeping, they they grab more conservative Christian kids than we grab secular liberal kids by a few percentage points, but not enough to make up for the fact that three out of four babies that are being born right now are being born into these families of essentially Bible-believing, you know, faith-filled conservative Christian families. So there's a demographic thing that's going to happen in the in the in the next generation where uh you're going to see a lot more kids being raised in homes of Bible-believing Christians. And I can't imagine what would cause an atheist secular liberal who believes, you know, that we're overrunning the environment despite all the evidence that, you know, we're we're heading the other direction at this point of fertility collapse. Um, I can't imagine them having large families um and and counteracting that. So people with a biblical worldview are going to have more kids, and that's going to affect our future as well. So that's another reason to be optimistic.

Luke Allen 54:57

Yeah, that's that's such a great message. The stick to the stick to the basics, the cultural commission, right there at the beginning of the Bible. And uh just to brag on dad a little bit. I mean, Dr. Montzal, you guys have 21 great grandkids. The Allen family in the last year, that's last three years went from eight Allen's to 19. So we're catching up quick. Thank you, Luke.

Scott Allen 55:20

They're doing their part. So no, you're totally totally right. Yeah, yeah. This is gonna have a significant impact. And yeah, no, and and it is reason, it's great reason to hope. I think one of the messages that I'm encouraging for my children is, you know, going back to what you said earlier, Dr. Munsell, about how worldview is uh biblical worldview is really learned from the earliest ages, the most strategic group really are the children, um, you know, at a young age, both in terms of what they learn, but what they see modeled, you know, from their parents. And so, yeah, really being intentional uh, you know, on the part of parents to disciple your children in a biblical worldview is I think is such a critical uh message that we need to be getting out right now to to these uh parents, young parents that are having children. So Dr. Munsell, we've uh really appreciated this time with you. It's been wonderful, and uh I I would love to keep going, but I I want to be respectful of your time. Is there anything that you would like to share as we as we wrap up? Any final words of encouragement? I I like ending on the hopeful note that we are right now, which has been great.

Speaker 56:26

So yeah, no, I I uh I think it is important to be optimistic. And uh um, you know, that I I I look um throughout history and through scripture, and you see that um the story of the people of Israel, and then the story even in more recent times of nations is is it's possible, and and I want to address this directly at those that think, okay, we're just headed for inevitable decline until Jesus comes back and rescues us. Um, that is nowhere in scripture. Um, what you see is whether it's the people of Israel, there's a turning away, and then there's a repenting and a turning back to God. There's these cycles that happen. Uh, and since we don't know, and even Jesus doesn't know the day or the hour of his return, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about that. I spend a lot of time thinking about we may be here for a thousand more years, and what kind of world do I want my 21 grandchildren to grow up in? Um, and so I I think we're better off um when Christ is at the center of culture, not mandated belief, but where there's a where there's a biblical foundation to everything, uh, and there's an opportunity for the sharing of the gospel. Uh and those and those and you know, Christian elements of culture are supported rather than uh than fought against. And so uh so I'm very hopeful. Uh I think we're gonna see some amazing things happen in the next 20 years. Um, but we've got to we've got to stick to it. We've got to focus on how do we develop biblical worldview among young people. And one of the best ways is for people that love the Lord when they get married to have children and raise them um to think and live biblically.

Scott Allen 58:04

I so appreciate that you said that. I was just talking to Luke about this on Friday. I was, you know, it's it's very common, and I'm sorry to say this within evangelical circles, to have for many to have a kind of a pessimistic view towards the future, um, the kind of the mindset of things are just going to get worse, and when they get really bad, you know, everything collapses, everything burns, and then Jesus comes back and restores it. And so

Rejecting Doomsday Christian Pessimism

Scott Allen 58:28

all the focus and the hope is uh you know very future oriented towards that point, with kind of the near future being, you know, what's the point? Kind of. And um, I was reminding Luke of that, you know, the characters in Lord of the Rings and the and the character that typifies that mindset is is Denethor, you know, there's this powerful enemy, and we're going to be defeated and we're going to get crushed. So, you know, just choose the best way you can to die, you know. And you can see Tolkien just saying that shouldn't be your mindset as a Christian. Your your mindset should be like Gimli, you know, certainty of death, small chances of success, success. So what are we waiting for? Let's go out there and let's do it. What are we waiting for? Yeah, absolutely. That's what I hear from you. I hear I hear that optimistic hey, Jesus is, you know, he's defeated death on the cross and Satan, and let's go, let's go. We got work to do, and I love that.

Speaker 59:18

So I've I have quoted that many times uh myself. So yeah, love, love that. And that does that should be our mindset as Christians. We're we're we're overcomers. Um we you know, we're we're called over and over again to be strong and courageous, and and and so I I think there's some incredibly good things ahead. Uh, and I don't have you know this this doomsday mindset. Um and I and I frankly it lets us off the hook. It's lazy, but it's not biblical thinking. That's what I want to say to people. It's not a good thing. I just don't think it honors Christ. I don't think it honors Christ.

Scott Allen 59:54

Yeah.

Speaker 59:54

I was just gonna say that I uh you know, when you talk about Great Britain in the in the 18th century and how bad things were morally there, uh it would have been really easy for for the Wesleys and and and Whitfield to look at that and say, well, you know, yeah, I mean, if if uh if God doesn't judge Great Britain, uh he's gonna have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah. You know, we should just be judged and then, you know, hopefully Jesus will come rescue us from here. You know, and it's like that's nonsense. That's utter nonsense. And if they had not done what they did, um, we wouldn't be here as Americans today. I mean, it literally influenced not just Great Britain, but the colonies and the American Revolution and so much more. And so what we do now is gonna have a profound influence on future generations. And I'll go back to where I started with, you know, it would have been easy to give up at about this place, you know, 10 to 12 years ago. And had we done that, I just I ran into a guy this morning on campus who um uh is a solid, Bible-believing, conservative Christian who met his wife here. Um, and he was transformed in his time at ACU. And so I look at that and I think about the marriages and the children that are now here because we did not give up in the assignment God gave us at this university uh to keep it alive and to keep building toward biblical worldview. And so you think about that, and you think about the ripple effect of the thousands of students that we are now affecting and their families and their communities. And that's just one institution. So that this is true for every church, it's true for every family uh that's that's raised in a God-fearing home. It's true for every Christian uh K through 12 school. Um, you know, but what we're doing now is is gonna echo for eternity through generations here on earth, I believe, that are still ahead of us. And so so don't stop. Don't quit. Amen. Thanks for what you're doing.

Scott Allen 1:01:51

Oh, well, thanks for what you're doing. Yeah, so appreciate it, Lennon. And just I'm inspired just here listening to you here at the end. Um and I think you're, you know, young men especially, we need something to fight for, right? To to fight for, to believe that we can actually make a difference. And this hopeless message is just exactly to me, exactly the wrong message you want to be communicating to, especially young men who are coming to faith in Christ, you know.

Where To Take The Worldview Survey

Scott Allen 1:02:15

Um Dr. Munsil, how do people connect? You mentioned um this great resource that Dr. Barnes has made available to churches if they want to do the same kind of uh research uh with in their church or school or whatever the institution is, uhw.com. Tell us about that. What is that? What are people gonna find when they go there?

Speaker 1:02:35

They're gonna find uh information about and the opportunity themselves to take the worldview survey. Uh and they'll also have contact information on there where they can, if they're church, if they're Christian school, if they're parachurch ministry, if you want to have your we've had a number of parachurch ministries reach out and say, we're gonna have our entire staff take the biblical worldview test to find out where they're at. Not from the standpoint of we need to get rid of them, but from the standpoint of we need to help them grow in thinking and living more biblically if they're gonna work at a place that's committed to biblical worldview and discipleship. So uh ACUWorldview.com, uh, you can go there, learn more about the survey. Um, there is a cost mainly to recover the expense and the time and everything that we put into it. Um, but if we're trying to keep it minimal, and obviously for group, uh larger groups and everything, there are discounts available. Um, we we're doing this to advance the kingdom. So we're we're not we want to make this widely available to people. This is George Barna's research over decades is poured into this worldview test. Um, and you it gives you an immediate feedback on where you're at, where you're strong, where you could shore up biblically. Um and so go there. I've also mentioned um our main website is azcu.edu. Uh azcu Arizona Christian University, azcu.edu um is the website for the university if you're interested in learning more or you have a somebody coming uh um uh of the right age to attend college, you know, grateful for your daughter uh being a uh a uh a graduate, hopefully a proud graduate of Arizona Christian University. Uh Scott, appreciate that. Um but uh we certainly want people to know um how to get in touch with us. And even on that page, also there's a link to the Cultural Research Center because we do want to make this broadly available to the body of Christ, and we'd love to see more and more people embrace this culture of we you don't get what you don't measure, as George loves to say. And so you've got to measure measure. Yeah. So if you're measuring how many people are there, great. That's gonna tell you that. But it's not gonna tell you, are you making disciples? We want to measure, are we making disciples at ACU? And we hope other people will join us in that effort.

Scott Allen 1:04:53

Well, Len, I I will put in a personal plug. And now is uh a mother as well, raising raising uh their first son. But sh she will say that the time, especially with your wife, who is w who was her professor, um was incredibly shaping and forming, and that Tracy took such a personal interest, not just in in Jenna, but uh she really pushed her. There was a level of excellence that Jenna to this day talks about and so appreciates that kind of you can do more, you know, we can learn more. There's more here. There's there was a depth, and I just so appreciated that. So I just wanted to thank you for that.

Speaker 1:05:43

Well, thank you. And uh I will definitely pass that along to Tracy.

Scott Allen 1:05:47

All right.

unknown 1:05:48

Dr.

Scott Allen 1:05:48

Munsil, thank you for your work, and uh this has just been terrific. We really appreciate the time. We can keep up the great work. God bless you. Thank you.