Ideas Have Consequences
Worldviews shape communities, influence politics, steer economics, set social norms, and ultimately affect the well-being of both your life and your nation. Obedience to the Great Commission involves replacing false ideas with biblical truth. Together with the help of friends, our mission is to demonstrate that only biblical truth leads to flourishing lives, families, societies, and nations. This show explores the intersection of faith and culture, aiming to address pressing societal issues through a biblical lens. Ideas Have Consequences is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance.
Ideas Have Consequences
The Last Stand: Why the Battle for Life Is a Battle of Worldviews | Dr. George Grant
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Episode Summary:
What happens when a society rejects the sanctity of life and abandons a biblical worldview? In this episode, we sit down with Dr. George Grant to discuss The Last Stand, his documentary created with Seth Gruber. Together, they trace the historical roots of today's cultural battles, showing how the struggle over human dignity, the value of children, and the lordship of Christ has shaped civilizations from ancient Rome and the French Revolution to modern America.
Dr. Grant explains why the pro-life movement is ultimately a clash of worldviews, why cultural decline begins with false ideas about the human person, and why Christians cannot retreat from the public square. We explore what faithful cultural engagement looks like in an age increasingly hostile to biblical truth.
This conversation offers both a sobering diagnosis and a hopeful roadmap for renewal through discipleship, Christian education, institutional leadership, and long-term faithfulness. If you're concerned about the future of Western civilization, the pro-life movement, or the Church's role in discipling nations and shaping society, this episode is for you.
Who is Disciple Nations Alliance (DNA)? Since 1997, DNA’s mission has been to equip followers of Jesus around the globe with a biblical worldview, empowering them to build flourishing families, communities, and nations. 👉 https://disciplenations.org/
🎙️Featured Speaker:
George Grant is the Pastor of Parish Presbyterian Church, Director of the King’s Meadow Study Center, Founder of both Franklin Classical School and Bannockburn College, and Coordinator of the Chalmers Fund. He is the author of dozens of books in the areas of history, biography, politics, literature, and social criticism, and he has written hundreds of essays, articles, and columns. He is a regular contributor to World Radio. And his work on behalf of the homeless, for international relief and development, for racial reconciliation, and for the sanctity of life has been profiled in such varied media outlets as the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post, Focus on the Family, The 700 Club, the Coral Ridge Hour, Point of View, Crossfire, World Magazine, and Christianity Today.
📌 Recommended Links
👉 Book - Discipling Nations: The Power of Truth to Transform Culture by Darrow Miller
👉 Book - Occupy Till I Come by Darrow Miller
👉 Book - A Christian Manifesto by Francis Schaeffer
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📩 Ask us anything: info@disciplenations.org
Why The Moment Feels Dangerous
George GrantThe danger right now is evident. It's palpable. I believe that we've got a window, a small window of opportunity to turn things around. We literally are standing before the gates of hell civilizationally. I became convinced that the pro-life issue was really just a gospel issue, that at its heart it was a manifestation of the clash of two worldviews. The church must have courage, must venture onto the battlefield of the culture without fear, and yet simultaneously do so, showing mercy and kindness and love. That's a tough bill to try and fill in, and yet this is what Christ has called us to.
Luke AllenLadies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Ideas Have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. As Christians, we all know that our mission is to spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. Amen to that. However, our mission, the Great Co-Mission, also involves working to transform our cultures so that they increasingly reflect the truth, the goodness, and the beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected this second part of her mission. And today most Christians are having little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God. Hi guys, my name is Luke Allen. I am the producer and one of the co-hosts here on the podcast. And I just hopped off an excellent podcast with a friend of the ministries, Dr. George Grant. And uh I was joined today by my dad, Scott Allen, and Darrow Miller as our other hosts. Uh Dad, how how about that episode? That was pretty great, wasn't it?
Scott AllenIt was so good to have Dr. Grant on the podcast. Dr. Grant and Darrow are friends uh that go all the way back to Libris some 40 years ago. And um and and yet at the same time, Dr. Grant is involved, George Grant is involved in um some really significant projects right now. Um, and we're gonna talk about one today called The Last Stand. It's a documentary and a book that's coming out in June from the White Rose Resistance and uh Seth Gruber. Um you can learn about that on the website, thelaststandfilm.com. And uh we're gonna talk about that today. Um I I thought I would just, Luke, with your permission, go ahead and introduce Dr. Grant here in the opening. Um and uh so yeah, let me just uh let me just do that right now. Dr. Grant is pastor emeritus of Parish Presbyterian Church in Franklin, Tennessee. Uh he's also founder of New College Franklin and the president of the King's Meadow Study Center. Um in addition to all of that, he's the founder of Franklin Classical School, so highly involved in education, uh Christian education. And I know, Luke, you in our homeschool days, um, we used some of Dr. Grant's curriculum, and uh you that's that was kind of your introduction to him, was through some of the curriculum. Oh, yeah.
Luke AllenYeah, I felt like I was back in a high school class today.
Scott AllenHe's uh also he's a prolific author. He's written many books um on uh subjects ranging from history to biographies, politics, literature, social criticism. Um he's also written hundreds of essays, articles, and columns. Uh he's a real expert on uh the issue of pro-life, sexual revolution. He's just written so much about that. Uh he's also got a real heart for the poor. He's been involved with ministry to the poor, international Christian relief and development. He's been involved in international mission, especially to the Kurds in northern uh Iraq. Uh uh He's actually set up a Christian classical school in Iraq that's thriving, uh, which is an amazing story of its own. We we don't really get into that in the podcast today. But uh he's uh yeah, he's prolific uh in terms of his writing, his speaking. He's been featured by many media outlets, including Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, Focus on the Family, uh, World Magazine, Christianity Today, and many more. He's uh highly educated. He has uh a um PhD in literature and uh a uh a master's degree in theology uh and a bachelor's degree in philosophy. So he's uh he's just incredibly well educated. He's married uh his wife Karen, have uh three grown children and six grandchildren. So that's who we're speaking with today, and and we're really zeroing in on uh the film The Last Stand, which is very similar to Darrow's book, Occupy Till I Come, and Oz Guinness's recent book, This Civilizational Moment, looking at the challenges culturally that the church is facing in the West today, um, the threats um that are coming against the Bible, the biblical worldview, and how Christians need to respond. And and I really thought, Luke, that you know, the response, kind of how do we respond, how do we think about it and respond? The things that Dr. Grant said in the podcast today were some of the most inspiring I've ever heard.
Luke AllenYeah, I agree with that. I think uh I I know we talk about this topic a lot, you know, in this cultural moment, how should Christians respond to what seems like increasing evil around us? Uh, but today's unpacking of that was probably the most clear to the point and applicable that I've heard. Uh so this episode was just fantastic. I really enjoyed it. I'm really excited to re-listen to it again. So I hope everyone's able to stick through through the whole thing. It was fantastic, as you guys heard there in the intro highlight clips. Um, for everyone listening, before we hop into this interview with Dr. George Grant, I just wanted to thank all of you guys for listening. Uh, just looking at our listeners from the last episode, I want to give a shout out to all the cities tuning in. Our top ten cities this week were Phoenix, Arizona, as always. Thank you, Phoenix, for tuning in. We love Phoenix. Dallas, Texas, followed up in second place. And then Bend, Oregon, which is where we are. So thanks, Ben, for listening. Probably some of the listeners are from our church, Eastmont Church, which we really love here in Bend, Oregon.
Scott AllenWe love Eastmont Church. Yep.
Luke AllenAnd then Portland, Oregon's following that up. We love that there's a lot of you guys listening in Portland. And then going across the pond over to Accra, Ghana. Yes, Africa. You guys are tuning in. Thank you, Chris Ampadu. Yeah, you guys are so faithful. Wichita, Kansas. Uh, Santa, let's see, I gotta say this right. Santa Catarina, Brazil. And then after that, Logos, Nigeria. Thank you for listening, Nigerians, and then uh Chicago, and then Liberty Hill, Texas. So thank you everyone for always tuning in so faithfully to this podcast. We appreciate each and every one of you. As always, if you'd like to help support this podcast in a very simple way today, please just hop on the app that you're listening on right now and give the show a little rating and a review if you have the time. We always appreciate those, and those are the best way for us on this podcast to increasingly get this show in front of more people. So we thank you ahead of time for doing that. And now without further ado, let's hop into the interview today with Dr. George Grant.
Meet George Grant And The Project
Scott AllenWell, really excited today to have with us Dr. George Grant and um and also Luke and Darryl Miller. Darrell, it's great to have you on the podcast as well. I'm so grateful that uh that you could join us. And as we were just chatting uh before we started, uh hit the record button here. Um, I didn't realize that both of you gentlemen knew each other all the way back to LeBris days. So I I thought that was uh really, really fascinating that you guys had that relationship that goes all the way back uh many, many years ago. You were you were mentioning 40, 40 some years ago.
Darrow MillerSo some of us are that old, Scott.
George GrantSome of us are that old. Well, Dr. But what an incredible privilege we share to have had those foundations laid so early on by such uh hero of the faith.
Speaker 3Yes.
George GrantFrancis Schaefer continues to shape my thinking to this day.
Darrow MillerAnd as I read the news, I'm I'm remembering what Schaefer said 50 years ago. Because what he said 50 years ago is what's happening today. It's it's unfolding before our eyes.
George GrantYeah, I was teaching a Bible study last night, and I was quoting from the Mark of the Christian, uh, one of my uh favorite books of Schaefer's. Um, but that then led almost immediately to that incredible first paragraph of Christian Manifesto, where Schaefer just lays out the call to have an integrated, comprehensive Christian worldview.
Darrow MillerYeah.
George GrantSomething that you've taught on and uh written on uh for nigh on all these years.
Darrow MillerAnd that's part of Schaefer's legacy. Your work, my work. It is Nancy Pearcy, Oz Guinness, it's Bishal Mongalawadi. I mean, how how many of our of us are out there that have been so influenced by Schaefer who are still speaking and writing today? It's quite amazing. It is.
George GrantAnd I'm so grateful that uh that uh we get to be in touch with these guys uh right right up to this day. Vichal is such a dear friend. Oz and I have worked together on education projects. You and I have traipsed around the world together. Um Nancy is in both of the films that uh that uh we have done, the 1980, uh 1916 project and uh now the last end. So uh it's really fun across all the years and all the miles to still be walking together.
Darrow MillerIt is. And I thank the Lord for that.
Scott AllenIt's probably a good place to jump in, Dr. Grant, uh, because uh it's interesting. Um I've noticed that you mentioned Oz Guinness, and of course, Oz about two years ago published his book, uh, This Civilizational Moment. Yes. Um, and then of course, uh Darrow has just came out come out with a new book with a similar theme called Occupy Till I Come, equipping the next generation to break the sacred secular divide and disciple nations at the level of culture.
George GrantBoth are what I consider to be must-read books. Uh I have a cohort of young men that uh are in ministry doing remarkable things, including Seth Gruber. And uh both of those are required reading for my um for my cohort.
Scott AllenWell, and of course, then you are working closely with Seth Gruber, and you have your project The Last Stand, the the book and the documentary that's going to be released um in Colorado in in June. I believe it's the the last or the first weekend of June. So coming up. Yeah. So congratulations on that. It just seems like all three of you gentlemen are working and more in a very similar vein or theme. And uh so we just wanted to talk to you about your project a little bit. Uh I'd love to just hear your uh just kind of introduction to it, how you got involved in it. How do you know Seth Gruber? I'm not quite sure how that connection goes for you. Um, and by the way, congratulations on the um 1916 project. That was an outstanding documentary, just outstanding. So we had Seth Gruber on talking about that.
George GrantYeah, you know, it's it's really interesting. I've been involved in the pro-life movement. Um I was in high school in Dallas, Texas, when Henry Wade first took on the case of Roe v. Wade, and I got to hear him speak. And so before Roe v. Wade actually went all the way to the Supreme Court, I became convinced that the pro-life issue was really just a gospel issue, uh, that at its heart it was um a manifestation of the clash of two worldviews. And uh so I I've been involved in the pro-life movement since before Roe v. Wade went to the Supreme Court uh to one degree or another. And uh my wife uh is the founder of Crisis Pregnancy Centers, and um we've uh we've just been involved, I've written a number of books on the issue, and uh it's not all I've been doing, I've done a lot of other things along the way. And uh Seth Gruber, young man, uh grew up in a home that uh his mom was the director of a crisis center, and uh my books were on their bookshelf, uh, but he never really connected it. And at some point, I think he heard a podcast of mine, and he went, wait a minute, I I think this is the guy who's written on Planned Parenthood and all that. Anyway, so he calls me up out of the blue, and so that's how we met. Uh he came to Tennessee, we did an interview for his podcast, uh, and then he asked me to help him uh with his two films. Oh, I'm so glad that that all happened. Yeah, yeah, he's now part of our discipling cohort, and he's just one of the the bright shining stars, I think, of the modern evangelical world. Uh real champion of truth, uh powerful communicator, and I'm delighted to be able to uh walk side by side with him and encourage him.
Scott AllenOh, it's that's what that is wonderful, and I'm so glad that he's really leaning into your um your wisdom and your experience, Dr. Grant. It's just uh I was really very happy to see that. And you know, uh the wisdom and the knowledge that you bring historically, especially on the issue of uh the sexual revolution, abortion, pro-life, uh it's just something that every Christian needs to understand. We don't understand the ideas behind it, the people behind it. And you've done such a great job of of just kind of uh pulling back the curtain and letting us see what's what's what's going on behind this movement. And uh just really grateful for that. But I would love to have you talk a little bit about the the last stand. What what's what's it about? Uh why is it why is it coming out now? Why do you feel like it's important? Talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 2Well, years ago I wrote a book called Third Time Around, uh, in which I I actually traced the concerns of the sanctity of life, the pro-life movement, from the first century all the way up to the present. Well, what was the present when I wrote it, uh, some 20 years ago. And um, in it, I just basically traced the fact that whenever Christianity comes face to face with the prevailing worldview, whether it's in ancient Rome or uh in the Enlightenment world of the French Revolution or uh the modern world, inevitably there will be this conflict over the sanctity of life. And the the point of the spear, in a sense, of that conflict will always be children. Uh and so I trace that historically showed how every great missionary movement, uh whether to India or China or uh throughout the great African continent, uh, but but even earlier, the push uh up into uh Europe. Uh when Christianity comes into conflict with pagan cultures, uh the first real battle is always going to be the battle for life. So every missionary pioneer, from uh Boniface and Anselm all the way uh across the board to Amy Carmichael uh and uh Jay Hudson Taylor, they they've all had to deal with the question of the sanctity of life,
The Last Stand Across Three Eras
Speaker 2uh, the preeminent uh importance of protecting innocent life. So I did this historical research, and when Seth and I sat down with his team to talk about the next film after the 1916 project, which really focused on Planned Parenthood and its legacy, Margaret Sanger and her legacy, um almost immediately they said, we need this broader history. So the last stand really shows uh in three big episodes the the continuing uh battle that Christianity faces in preserving life, upholding the sanctity of every man, woman, and child, uh, and uh the the cost that uh is involved. So the three episodes are ancient Rome. So we filmed in Rome with walks down the Appian Way and glimpses of the Colosseum and the Forum and all of that, just telling the story of how those early Christians would go to infanticide walls uh to save babies that have been discarded uh by the Patrifamlious um traditions of the pagan Romans. Uh, the second episode revolves around the French Revolution. And uh in each of the episodes, we contrast some great hero and uh some you know progenitor of that pagan world view. Uh so in the in the first episode we focus on Athanasius, a great champion of faith, and contrast him uh with uh with the uh the pagan emperor who demonstrated perhaps more than any other uh the perversity and the wickedness of that worldview, Caligula. When we get to the French Revolution, we've got uh Marquis de Sade and Rousseau, and we contrast uh them with Merle d'Aubinier and Gron van Prinster, uh the great anti-revolutionary reformational thinkers. And then we we conclude in Great Britain, and uh we spend time in London, uh, where uh both uh William Wilberforce and Karl Marx are uh buried. They they were actually uh almost contemporaries. Uh Wilberforce just a little bit earlier, but they live in the same city, and uh this city has the legacy of both men stamped upon it. Uh and then uh we we ended up uh in uh Oxford and in the in the English countryside, standing in front of the doors of the church that inspired uh J.R.R. Tolkien. Very, very famous image of a doorway uh with two trees growing up uh out of the soil. It's a magnificent spot. So what our our our whole point was to say every generation of Christians faces this battle. So the question is will we join with the heroes or will we stand on the sidelines? Will we do what Jesus called his disciples to do? Storm the gates of hell, which shall not prevail, or will we shrink back uh in fear uh of uh losing, as Francis Schaefer would say, our personal peace and affluence. So that's essentially what the film is. I've given the whole story away. Um hopefully that's not a spoiler.
Scott AllenListen, you sold me. I can't wait to see it, honestly. And and partly it's just because I love history, I'm a history buff. And um, and then Luke and I, we had a chance several years ago to tour Oxford together. That was a real special memory for me, Luke. Um, and you're right, it's just uh stunningly beautiful. So yeah, gotta see it, gotta see it.
Speaker 2Um the shots that we had in the Buglin Library are just incredible. Uh Seth and I were able to find a few days earlier in London a very early edition of William Wilberforce's A Practical View of Christianity. So we're sitting in the Buglin Library surrounded by these magnificent, you know, 14th and 15th century volumes pouring over this remarkable work that uh that had such a huge impact on the launching of the Great British uh missionary movement and uh the shaping of men like Thomas Chalmers and and others. So um it's uh it's a really wonderfully, beautifully shot film. I'm I'm excited.
A Small Window To Respond
Speaker 2for people to see it.
Speaker 3Let me ask you, George, uh which side of the prep the uh precipice do you see as on today? Are we on the edge looking down or have we stepped off?
Speaker 2Oh that that's a great question. And I I don't know that uh that we can properly answer. Uh you know uh um you do this very well in Occupy Tel ICOM uh and Oz does it very well in uh both uh this civilizational moment and in uh America Agonistes uh the the the danger right now is evident it's palpable uh I believe that we've got a window a small window of opportunity to turn things around uh I I think you know the the current political situation uh has has has never been in my mind a solution to anything it's a tourniquet to stop the bleeding to enable us to do something uh the question is will we do what is necessary and will it be enough uh in this 250th year of American independence will this be enough to protect and enable this experiment in liberty to endure i don't know i am encouraged at this moment uh i'm encouraged uh because of what uh people like young men like Seth Gruber uh what they're doing what uh what what kind of attention uh Charlie Kirk was uh able to garner and the ongoing movement that has emerged uh you know Charlie was uh one man uh sitting under a tent uh with a handful of helpers on university campuses currently uh on university campuses under those tents there are 114 so that that's you know that that's an opportunity for us to turn things around but as us has pointed out in this civilizational moment we've got wave after wave after wave of bad news um he calls them the uh the red wave the rainbow wave the uh black wave and the green wave or or the gold yeah the gold wave uh and uh each one of them uh the red wave of uh of radical Marxism uh the rainbow wave of the sexual revolution the black wave of of uh rising jihadist Islamism uh and the gold wave of corrupt uh enlightenment elitism uh real threats to all that we hold dear uh we literally are standing before the gates of hell um civilizationally yeah um there's this uh remarkable story in uh matthew chapter 16 jesus takes his disciples to Caesarea Philippi uh and uh there in Caesarea Philippi in the far far northeast corner of uh the uh the the world of the Israelites it's uh it's about uh 25 miles uh to the west of the Phoenician port of Tyre about 25 miles north of the Sea of Galilee so it's it's way out of the way and it's there that Jesus uh asked his disciples who do people say that I am and they respond by saying well some say John the Baptist and some say Elijah some say Jeremiah or one of the prophets uh to which Jesus says but who do you say that I am and uh Simon Peter always uh bold and uh quick to uh respond says you're the Christ of the living God and then Jesus says to him blessed are you Simon Bar Jonah for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my father who is in heaven and I tell you Peter uh that upon this rock I will build my church and then he he goes on and he says the gates of hell will not prevail against it and then he says and I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven now that's that's a famous story and it's uh usually the the focus of the examination of the story is uh what's Jesus saying about Peter? What is his authority? Uh what what does this mean about his primacy? Sometimes the focus is on the eschatological aspects uh the the the final victory of the gospel but rarely do people focus on the background Caesarea Philippi was one of the most wicked places on earth uh there was a cave uh there they're in this cliff uh in the foothills leading up to Mount Hermon um you've probably been there Darrow I have um and uh that there are all of these uh small caves they were niches that from uh ancient times well well before Alexander and the Macedonian armies conquered uh in the fourth century BC uh these were the places for the worship of Baal uh and then later the worship of Pan uh and then all the way up to the time of Jesus there were these perverse rituals that were done right there in Caesarea Philippi in a sense Caesarea Philippi was the red light district of the Middle East and uh good Jews just did not venture there. I'm sure that the disciples were shocked that Jesus even brought them there. So here's this rock it's got this huge cave a temple to Pan uh and and in this uh the vicinity they would hold these rituals because every spring they believed that uh this was the gateway to the underworld where uh the gods of the Greeks would emerge every spring out into the world and then they would retreat again in the winter Jesus was saying to his disciples I brought you to the very gates of hell and this is where I want you to build my church on this rock I want you to build here and the gates of hell this perverse place this awful culture shall not prevail now this is a long way around the block to answer your question but my answer is I know that the gospel will succeed will it succeed in America I don't know that we've we're a long way down the road but can we have great great hope uh that the victory of Christ will be made manifest and that his uh reign will be an enduring reign and shall not pass away um can can we be certain that the kingdoms of this world are the kingdoms of our God and of his Christ absolutely so while I am moderately pessimistic about where we are with American culture I am hugely optimistic
Storming The Gates With Mercy
Speaker 2about the consummate victory of Christ and therefore our responsibility to be among those who stand before the cliff of Caesarea Philippi and we storm the gates of hell and what does that mean for the church today in America well you know I the um the the gates of hell caesarea Philippi for us to do today really is anything that sets itself up against the gospel of Christ um and you know in the book of Proverbs we're told that there are really only three kind of people there are ordinary sinners there are fools and there are the wicked and right now it it seems that that the wicked are are prevailing across the board uh in our culture uh they're the ones who are manning the gates of hell at the end of uh the little postcard epistle uh to jude um jude kind of addresses those three kinds of people um he says that uh you beloved build yourselves up in the most holy faith pray in the Holy Spirit keep yourselves in the love of God waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life and then he says have mercy on those who doubt save others by snatching them out of the fire and to others show mercy with fear hating even the garment stained by flesh in a sense that gives us the roadmap for how we're to face the prevailing um cesarea philippi like worldview of our day uh we're to um to reach those who are doubting by having mercy upon them we're to save others by snatching them out of the fire uh and then uh to the rest we're to show mercy but hating even the garments stained with the flesh uh essentially what that means is we've got to stand four square against the standards of this world across the board accommodating ourselves to the world uh is uh a strategy that has long been used by the modern church and it has been an abject failure it has diluted our impact our influence our opportunity to proclaim a clear and distinctive gospel so now is a time for great courage courage that is costly uh because you know anything and everything that we might say uh regarding the creation ordinances uh those those uh patterns that God used to build the perfect world in the first place uh the the character and nature of time the use of uh the world's resources the character and nature of men and women of marriage and family uh the purpose of children uh all of that um when addressed in a biblical fashion is considered hate speech uh by uh the prevailing culture so to to proclaim the whole council of god these days means that the church must have courage must venture onto the battlefield of the culture without fear uh and yet simultaneously do so uh showing mercy and kindness and and love uh that's a that that's a tough bill uh to uh to try and fill in and yet this is what christ has called us to i would agree with that uh george but want to ask a further question uh culture is derived from worship culture shapes institutions and policies if taking what you've said what are the implications of this for christians impacting culture on an institutional level because these ideas these lies are um the DNA of so many institutions today in other words the lies are manifested institutionally so what role does the church have not just to stand firm and be willing to suffer and to preach and to personally demonstrate but what is the connection between that and the institutions of the culture and how the church is to engage at that level one of the things that we've got to do is we've got to stop giving our children over to the high priests of this uh radical anti-Christian faith uh meaning we've got to create a complete alternative in the education and discipleship of our children uh that that's the first thing we've got to start building for the day that you and I uh Darrow will never see uh we've got to lay foundations for our children and our grandchildren um so that they can begin to rebuild alternatives uh in the culture uh T.S. Elliot in his uh great chorus from the rock uh said where is the life we have lost in living where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge where is the knowledge that we have lost in information uh essentially what he was saying was you know the human cry of his day was we've got to uh to invest in education we've got to um uh do all kinds of things to make education stronger and better uh more comprehensive and T.S. Eliot was saying you you don't realize that that education is not merely the transfer of information and of uh of skill sets uh education is a worldview project uh Charles hadn't Spurgeon beautifully said it uh when he said I would have everyone uh able to read write and cipher uh indeed I don't think that a man can uh know too much but mark you the knowing of these things is not education and there are millions of your reading and writing folk who are as ignorant as neighbor Norton's calf uh C.S. Lewis said to uh to to educate a man uh without the values of Christianity is to create a brute and in a sense one of the things that we've got to do is we've got to create an alternative way to train up to uh to mobilize the next generation that's the first thing that we can do for culture invest in the future uh martin luther was once asked uh if you knew uh that uh that the world was coming to an end tomorrow he he was in the garden uh he was planting a tree uh if you knew that the world was ending tomorrow what would you do and his response was plant a tree today in other words we need to invest right here right now where we are yes so that that's the first thing uh secondly uh i would say we need uh as uh as
Building Education And Cultural Alternatives
Speaker 2an older generation um you and i daro we've known each other for half a century uh we need to continue to do our homework continue to have influence continue to pour into those around us it's something that uh uh I have been so encouraged by you in uh watching you as you have continued to uh labor in the harvest uh we need to do that we need to gather around us cohorts of young men pour into them uh teach them encourage them and then turn them loose to go and do the work of the kingdom third we need to recognize uh what Francis Schaeffer says in that very first paragraph that seminal paragraph in a Christian manifesto where he talks about the the the um the the power of a comprehensive Christian worldview that touches everything um he he says you know in the last generation uh or so christians have become increasingly concerned about and then he names off a series of issues pornography abortion and um you know education etc and he said but we've seen things in bits and pieces rather than whole totals yeah not in whole so what uh what we've got to do is we've got to start uh recognizing the power of the Christian worldview to shape art music literature architecture economics politics engineering uh physics across the board we have to uh raise the standard once again of a comprehensive Christian worldview and that will uh mean that we will be standing in contradistinction uh to the prevailing worldview of our time but that's what prophets are for and I would add to that or or compliment that by saying we need to learn to teach our young people to think theologically about their vocational choices so they can be at the gates of the city with a biblical worldview as to how it relates to art, architecture, uh politics, economics. We need them to be thinking biblically at the gates of the city we also need to teach people how to be uh good second fiddles uh not everybody is supposed to be in the spotlight not everybody is supposed to be at the front of the stage uh what we need to teach uh the notion that there is glory there is dignity there is power in being backstage uh we you know when we think about the transforming power of the Reformation with the Calvins and the Luthers and the Knox's we often forget that alongside them were the Bootsers and Bezas uh there were the Melancthans and Karlstadts uh there were you know a host of others uh Pierre Viré, one of the great champions of the faith we never hear his name because he was content to stand side by side with his brother, his best friend, his champion John Calvin. We need to have that same mindset to pour into people the notion you don't have to be in the spotlight to make a huge difference.
Scott AllenThat's great, George. George I I still hear in my ear uh the voice of so many Christians and I would say it's probably the majority of Bible believing Christians in the United States and they're listening to this conversation We're talking about Western civilization and we're talking about the last stand or even the United States. And they're saying, Why? That's not our purpose. Our mission isn't here to save some kind of Western civilization. They would just roll their eyes at that, you know, and and you know, they would say, our mission is to preach the gospel, and by that they would mean the gospel of personal salvation, and invite you know people into the church and wait until Jesus comes back, because that's when all of this brokenness is going to come to an end. Until then, you know, don't put too much hope in any kind of turnaround or or or or or you know improvement or reformation. You know, that's kind of like uh a lost cause. I hear that all the time. And it's funny, since moving back to Oregon from Arizona, I hear it even more in the church up here. And it's it's it's caused me to think that you know the the the the state of Oregon is is further down the road than most in terms of of these um demonic forces and lies. And and part of the reason I think for that is is just this this mindset of the church. What uh make your best case to people like that, that what the you know that this should be something that we as Christians should care about and engage in and and not just have this kind of flippant idea that that's really none of our business or it's a distraction.
Speaker 2Yeah, I you know, it I I think the um the individualistic approach to modern American evangelicalism has uh has twisted the biblical perspective. The Great Commission uh is uh all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations.
Scott AllenRight. Yeah, we we do people immediately put in individual in for nation. You're exactly right.
Speaker 2Yeah, they they do, but uh that's not what the Bible says. In uh the book of Revelation, there's this incredible scene where John uh sees this vision. It says, um, uh as he's witnessing this all of these glories, he hears a voice from heaven um and speaks
Discipling Nations Beyond Individualism
Speaker 2to him, and and he says, uh, here is a scroll. Uh go open it, uh eat it. Uh it will make your stomach bitter, but in your mouth it will be sweet as honey. In other words, when when when you preach the word of God, it's tough to stomach, but it is oh, ever so sweet, sweeter than honey and the honeycomb. But then this is what uh what the voice from heaven says to him uh I was told, you must again prophesy about and to many peoples and nations and languages and kings. I mean, this is a very, very clear call to not limit ourselves to coffee cup evangelism. Coffee cup evangelism is wonderful, uh, it is powerful, it is effective, but it's only one aspect. Uh, great revivals come when whole nations are swept up into uh the great story of the gospel. That's what made America in the first place between the 1730s and the 1770s with the Great Awakening. Uh George Whitfield saved, uh, in a sense, side by side with the Wesley brothers, saved England from the calamities of revolution that came in France precisely because the nation was swept away by the gospel. Uh, and that radical revolutionary individualism that Enlightenment thought uh simply did not take root. Um, that's something that we've got to constantly remind people. Uh, we've got a cultural mandate, a call to bring the whole of the gospel to the whole of life by proclaiming Christ as Lord over all. It's a beautiful thing uh to start to realize that Jesus not only has a wonderful plan for my life, but he has a wonderful plan for my legacy, for my children, for my grandchildren, uh, for all of those who are downstream from me and in my community. He has a wonderful plan for the world. God didn't so love a handful of people that he gave his only begotten son. He gave his son for the life of the world. He's the light of the world. He is the fountain of life, the prince of life. Let's proclaim the whole gospel, not just uh that narrow uh part of the gospel that saves a few brands from the flickering flames of perdition.
Scott AllenOh man, you sold me. Okay, sign me up. I wish people just understood that deeply in their bones. And I feel like in some ways that is the, you know, we were talking about how what we need to do to respond. And and our focus sometimes can be on um, you know, the the evil that's in the culture, but I think we still have so much work to do in the church and just remind the church of who she is and what her mission is and what it means to disciple nations. And uh, so I just so appreciate your really powerful uh words uh uh on that. Super, super, super great.
Speaker 2Well, I I I would quickly refer people to a wonderful book on this subject called Discipling the Nations by Daryl Miller.
Scott AllenI know I've heard of that guy, Daryl Miller, I think. Yeah, I know. Well, it's it's I you know, I think we've made progress in the church, but there's still so much that needs to be done, you know, to to kind of awaken the church to who she is and what her mission is. It's and the thing is it's it's broader than than just this salvation of individual people. You know, when you you're talking about discipling of nations, that's a much bigger mission that involves everybody in every way. And it gives people a sense of deep purpose and meaning. And that's what people are so hungry for right now. I think, especially these young men that are coming to faith, they need you know, they need a calling for their lives that's that goes beyond, like you said, the coffee cup evangelism, as important as that is.
Speaker 2So uh yeah, and we we don't ever want to minimize, obviously, right, uh, individual redemptive uh purposes that God has. Uh it is it is a remarkable thing to know that from eternity past, uh, God set his affections upon me uh as an individual. Uh but he does so simultaneously calling me to recognize that the kingdoms of this world are the kingdoms of our God and of his Christ. The earth is the Lord's and everything in it, the world and all who live in it, for he founded it upon the seas and established it upon the waters. Let's not forget that.
Scott AllenAmen. And I think the other thing that at least is very motivating to me, and it sounds, you know, coming back to the documentary, The Last Stand, is the fact that Christians in previous generations, and you're looking at these three chapters, these three generations of the early church, the church during the time of the of the French Revolution, and um what was the uh oh what was the third? I missed uh England. Oh, England, yeah, England, right. Uh during the time of Wilbur. And you you're highlighting heroes, and those heroes um were people that created something and left a legacy, and we all uh benefit from that, we all enjoy that, whether we know it or appreciate it or not, they they created a culture and left a legacy. And I feel like today to have this flippant attitude that it doesn't matter what you know, that w what does this have to do with me? It it dishonors that legacy. These people have benefited you in what far more ways than you even realize. Do you want to be the generation that all of that is lost in? You know, I that's I'm just speaking for myself. That that that to me that's highly motivating. And I I I'm so glad that you guys are going back historically to look at that legacy and the building of of uh you know what was built and and the sacrifice that it took to build that, because I think that that shapes the way we think about the present or should, anyways. Dr. Grant, um we need to wrap up. Uh unfortunately, Luke, I'd like to bring you in here at the end. What questions do you have for Dr. Grant as we wrap up?
Luke AllenOh, I I realize we're already over time. Uh and Darrow, considering your time, we probably should wrap it up. But I'm just reminded as you're talking there, Dad, yeah, we we stand on the shoulders of of many great um the great cloud of witnesses, right? Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great great cloud of witnesses, let us run with perseverance. The race marked out for us. We're standing on the shoulders of, you know, obviously everyone in the Bible, but then St. Patrick, you know, William Wilberforce, John Witherspoon, Calvin, and therefore let us run run with perseverance. So I'm motivated. I am. I'm so excited for this, for this film, for this book, and uh thank you for all you're doing, Dr. Grant, in that area.
Speaker 2Amen. Well, thank you for all of the work that you guys are doing. And uh um, Darrow, I love you, my brother, and I'm so grateful to the Lord for all that you are and all that you have done. And uh know that I'm praying for you and for Maryland, and I am um just uh so blessed to have been able to walk with you across all the years and all the miles.
Speaker 3And I would echo I have been blessed for these years and this walk with you.
Where To Learn More And Closing
Speaker 3And we're not done yet. So we're not done yet.
Scott AllenDr. Grant, how do people learn more about the last stand, the book and the documentary? Where can they go? Because I want to encourage all of our listeners to to tap into this incredible resource and calling. Where can they go to learn more?
Speaker 2Well, there is a uh a website, thelaststand uh.com, but uh also uh the White Rose Resistance is the pro-life organization that Purdue. Uh and there's information on my website, George Grant.net. So lots of places to go.
Scott AllenPerfect. Thank you for that. All right. Well, thank you again for your time and just for the inspiration.
Speaker 2So good being with you. Likewise, my brother, bless you.
