Kingdom Ambassadors: Clear Truth, Calm Courage, Real Influence | Greg Koukl

Episode Summary: 

Churches are filling. Bibles are selling. People are searching for truth again. The question is: are Christians ready to meet the moment?

This week we sit down with Greg Koukl, founder of Stand to Reason, for a timely conversation on what it truly means to live as an ambassador for Christ and His kingdom in a confused and hostile culture.

Greg explains why effective Christian witness is not about winning arguments, but representing the King with truth, wisdom, and character. He unpacks these three essential marks of a faithful ambassador for us: an accurately informed mind, an artful method, and an attractive manner. If you have ever walked away from a hard conversation wishing you had responded with more clarity and less frustration, this episode is for you.

We also explore the meaning of the Kingdom of God, why Jesus’ words “My kingdom is not of this world” do not mean retreat from culture, and how Christians can faithfully be a biblical influence in every sphere of life.

If you want to grow in biblical worldview, Christian apologetics, cultural discernment, and faithful witness, this conversation will equip and encourage you.

Who is Disciple Nations Alliance (DNA)👉 https://disciplenations.org/

🎙️Featured Speaker: 

Greg founded Stand to Reason in 1993 and currently serves as President. He has spoken on more than 90 university campuses both in the U.S. and abroad and has hosted his own call-in radio show for over 30 years, advocating for “Christianity worth thinking about.” He has debated atheist Michael Shermer on national radio and Deepak Chopra on national television. An award-winning writer and best-selling author, Greg has written seven books, including Street Smarts—Using Questions to Answer Christianity’s Toughest Challenges, The Story of Reality—How the World Began, How It Ends, and Everything Important that Happens in Between; Tactics—A Game Plan for Discussing Your Christian Convictions, and Relativism: Feet Firmly Planted in Mid-Air. Greg has been featured on Focus on the Family radio and has been interviewed for CBN and the BBC. He's been quoted in Christianity Today, the U.S. News & World Report, and the L.A. Times.

Greg received his Masters in Philosophy of Religion and Ethics at Talbot School of Theology, graduating with high honors, and his Masters in Christian Apologetics with honors from Simon Greenleaf University. He is an adjunct professor in Christian apologetics at Biola University.

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     👉 Dwight’s New Book: Made to Live 

     👉 Recommended Episode: Made to Live: The Good News of the Kingdom of God

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Transcript

Greg Koukl 0:02

Churches are filling up, Bibles are selling like crazy, youth groups are filling up, and everywhere I go, people see it. Something is going on. And I think in principle, people are realizing how empty the worldly way is. It doesn't satisfy that deep hunger of their heart being made in the image of God. Faithfulness is not theologically complicated. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. So you have a king who creates a domain, his domain. So you have a king and a dome. You have a kingdom right there in the first line. The appeal of the kingdom is to draw rebels, rebels to the king, back in under the appropriate authority of the sovereign. And if somebody is saying, oh, you're not extending the kingdom, I'd say, of course I am. Watch. No, I'm not doing it on my strength, but I'm a player here.

Scott Allen 1:00

I'm not just an empty vessel. Or is our friend Vishal Vamangalwadi would say, you're not a zero. He always says that. You're not a zero.

Greg Koukl 1:07

Postmodern people, we don't believe in reason. I certainly don't believe in Christianity. Why not? Here's the reasons. Right. A, B, C, D, E, you know. Huh? Well, what on the one hand, they're talking like postmodernists. On the other hand, they're talking like human beings made the image of God. I know that I can speak to these individuals or these audiences, and I can speak actual truth to them, and they will understand that I'm speaking truth because they operate in terms of truth.

Luke Allen 1:45

Hi friends, welcome back to another episode of Ideas Have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. As Christians, we all know that our mission is to spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. However, our mission, the Great Co-Mission, also involves working to transform our cultures so that they increasingly reflect the truth, goodness, and the beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected this second part of her mission, and today most Christians are having little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God. Hey guys, my name is Luke Allen. I'm one of the co-hosts here on the show, and uh my dad and our host, Scott Allen. Howdy, Dad. Hey, Luke. It's good to be back. Yep. We just hopped off a great episode with Greg Kokel, uh, who I've been wanting to have on the podcast for a long time, so it was just so much fun to actually sit down with him and have a conversation. It was really fun actually just chatting with him because we have a ton in common, we realize. Um he has a background in food for the hungry, as do you dad and Dwight, who was also on today. And he was sent out into missions by Darrow Miller, uh, as same as you, Dad, and Dwight as well, and my mom, and just have a lot in common there. And uh, so we have a similar origin story, which is fun to chat about. But um, as far as what we talked about today, Dad, and then also just introducing him to our audience, um, for anyone who's not aware of Greg Kokel and what he does, uh, would you mind kind of setting us up here? Yeah, absolutely.

Scott Allen 3:20

What an honor to have Greg on. And like you said, Luke, it was really interesting to hear uh how many things we shared in common, you know, both the background with food for the hungry, working overseas with food for the hungry, um, our interactions and relationships with Darrow, Darrow Miller. So, yeah, a lot that I I wasn't even aware of. And um, you know, I count that such an honor because uh for those of you who know Greg Kokel, he's really one of the lead um our leading thinkers, uh teachers, uh, especially around the area of Christian apologetics. Uh brilliant guy, very humble. Uh, Greg founded Stand to Reason in 1993. He currently serves as president of that organization. Uh, he has spoken on more than 90 university campuses in the United States and abroad. He hosts a regular call-in radio show, and he's done that for more than 30 years, advocating what he calls Christianity worth thinking about. Uh, Greg has written uh many books, seven books, uh, including Street Smarts, Using Questions to Answer Christianity's toughest challenges, and we talk about that a bit today. Um here's a book that he wrote that I loved, um, really great book. It's called The Story of Reality: How the World Began, How It Ends, and Everything Important That Happens In Between. That's such a great title. And it fits really well with what we teach at the DNA. We have a session that we teach uh regularly called The Transforming Story, which is the story of reality. Um, and so this is a really great book, and and it came out that Greg, of all of the books that he uh wrote, this is the one that's closest to his heart. I thought that was interesting. Um, and then probably the one that's the most famous in terms of Christians knowing about and using is a book called Tactics, a game plan for discussing your Christian convictions. It's a really outstanding book. Uh, Greg has a master's in philosophy of religion and ethics from the Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. He also has his master's in Christian apologetics from Simon Greenleaf University. And uh, in addition to his work with Stand to Reason, he serves as an adjunct professor of Christian apologetics at Biola University. And then yeah, Luke, we we we focused around, there was so much we wanted to talk about, but we focused it around what does it mean to be an ambassador? Um Paul makes it explicit in in 1 Corinthians that we are called to be ambassadors, ambassadors of the king and his kingdom. So we talk about what does that really mean for us to be representatives or ambassadors of this realm, this domain called God's kingdom and the king that rules over that kingdom. And it was really rich. Yeah, really great, I think great insights on uh very practically what does that mean? How do we do that? And what just how do we think about kingdom and our role in it versus the king and whatnot? So a lot of good questions and answers around that. Luke, what did what stood out to you today?

Luke Allen 6:22

Yeah, I mean, I I I've always just loved that analogy of being an ambassador. Uh growing up, I played a lot of basketball. My mom always told me go and be an ambassador for Christ on the on the court. And even at a young age, like 10 years old, that that made sense to me. Like, okay, I'm representing someone here, I'm representing a way of life, I'm representing a way to live in this world. And I can do that on the basketball court. It's it's that simple. This is the assignment we've been given as Christians after we became Christians is to go and be ambassadors to represent something, a way of life. And I just love that analogy, and I I I really appreciated the way he unpacked it today. I learned I learned a bunch. So I hope everyone uh listening to this learns as much as I did. Uh this one's a great one to take notes along with if you guys aren't driving or doing the dishes, so encourage you to do that. But yeah, again, um all the resources we mentioned in the show, as always, will be linked down in the show notes, as well as anything else um that we discussed during the episode. So without further ado, let's hop into this discussion with Greg Hogan.

Scott Allen 7:41

What an honor.

Greg Koukl 7:42

Well, this is what makes it precious, actually, to be with guys like you and Dwight, especially. I mean, Dwight and I have a history in 1982. I was 32 years old. He was my boss at 25, running the whole Food for the Hungry operation there in Thailand. What an impressive guy and impressive team. So it is really a treat for me to back with be back with Dwight and with both of you as well.

Scott Allen 8:04

Thank you so much, Greg. And Dwight, it's great to have you on as well. So um I wonder before we jump in, Greg, we wanted to talk with you. I mean, obviously we go in down so many different roads, but we thought we'd kind of focus in on what does it mean for Christians today in the times that we live in to be ambassadors for Christ and just kind of focus our conversation around that. But I thought uh before we did that, you know, just to go back to um the time that you and Dwight shared together uh working with Food for the Hungry uh in Thailand. Um you guys both were uh, I think, you know, it was at a time when you were both at Biola and um agreed to go and serve uh in a time where there was uh a refugee crisis uh uh in Cambodia and in Thailand. Um any memories, Greg, from that time for you or even you, Dwight? Like what what how did God really work uh in your life in that kind of pivotal time? It's that was quite different than what you're doing now, uh Greg. And so yeah, I'd love to hear any thoughts you have about uh the impact that that had on you.

Greg Koukl 9:11

Well I wasn't at Biola then. I didn't come to Biola for another um ten years or so to work on my MA Phil under uh JP Moreland. But um no, I was kind of uh 82, I became a Christian in 73, so I was nine years uh in Christ, so it's kind of wet behind the ear still, and um it was taking as a whole, it was probably the most significant macro experience in my life. Uh being immersed in a culture, able to learn the language a bit, and Thai is actually a fairly easy language to to learn if you have an ear for it. And uh the people are wonderful, and the team I worked with there, Scott uh uh Dwight leading that that team was magnificent. I was so impressed with everybody, and it was very adventuresome for me. And I I think that uh there were a lot of Volags, voluntary agencies that were working with Cambodian refugees following the Holocaust of 75 to 79 and the exodus from Campuchia, Cambodia to uh to Thailand to escape the Khmer Rush and the threat of that. Uh so you know, I don't know that uh and I ran a feeding program for 18,500, 250 people there, the whole camp. But it was a turnkey operation, uh FHI and the precursors to me had already put together a great thing. I just stepped into the role, but to be in that environment, I think the bigger impact wasn't the impact I had on other people. It was the impact, pardon me, that others had on me, the broad experience and also the team there and working together with these wonderful people in a in a capacity of meeting really deep and profound human need. And so I would say, and I tell this to people, look at I I wasn't married at that time, I didn't get married for a while after that, but I was um uh if you're n when you're young and you don't have a lot of obligations, you don't have a mortgage, you don't have family, you don't have kids, get out and do something absolutely crazy for God in another country for a long period of time. It will change you like nothing has ever changed you. And I I don't know, Dwight Dwight can uh attest to this, and uh and that would be my recommendation from that experience because that's what happened to me. It was it was such a profound experience because life in that circumstance for for us was whittled down to the absolute necessities. You weren't concerned about uh like TV shows and you know who's playing in the Super Bowl, whatever, you know. I don't remember what was really popular. Dallas was a TV show that was a popularity. You were missing your Dallas episodes. Yes, it didn't matter. None of that mattered. What mattered was the things that matter. And so your life was focused intensely on the things that really matter, and that has a way of transforming one's perspective, and that's what I took away from that experience. Thanks, Greg.

Scott Allen 12:17

How about you, Dwight? Wouldn't when you look back, uh were there a couple things that really stand out from you? And uh, you know, that was yeah, a time when you and Greg were working together.

Dwight Vogt 12:25

So yeah, I do have a very vivid memory of Greg Kokel working with us in the refugee camp, so that was fun. Uh he was the the hands of a smart dude that was older than all of us and uh and doing a great job. But uh I think I was there three and a half years, so I think what I took away from all of that was it was it it was an adventure for sure. I wasn't married either at the time. But I think what I what I took away from it was an insight into the fact that other people are different culturally, think differently, and yet they're not different. And so we worked with Hmong and Lao and Vietnamese and of course the Khmer Rouge and all of the suffering that those people had gone through under the different regimes that forced them to leave. And uh it was just insightful to see these these are my you know other human beings that have different experiences, different cultures, but we see the world the same, and it helped me understand life better.

Greg Koukl 13:21

Now, Dwight, I thought you were gonna mention that at one time at a staff dinner in Bangkok as I talked a lot, and I was talking so much I bit my tongue, and everybody thought that was really funny. I don't know if you remember that.

Dwight Vogt 13:34

I don't remember that. I'm sorry. You're a good talker, I know that. I was I was impressed, so there you go. Good talker.

Scott Allen 13:42

Well, both of you guys, thank you for your faithfulness to Christ over many years now, you know, from that beginning and even before that, all the way through to the ministry and the way that God has used you both. So thank you for that. Um, Greg, I wanted to get into uh, yeah, this topic of being an ambassador for Christ and for his kingdom in a fallen world. I I know that's something that you enjoy talking about. Um and uh I would just like to kind of delve into that. Uh this kind I've always been struck by the the analogy that Christ or that Paul uses, that we are ambassadors for Christ. Um and, you know, just what does that mean? How does that shape the way we think about the way we interact with this world? What are we being ambassadors for? And maybe we could even start there. Uh we're ambassadors for Christ, for his realm, his kingdom. Uh when you think about it that way, Greg, what do you think of some of the what are the defining hallmarks of God's kingdom that we as his ambassadors need to faithfully represent?

The Ambassador Mindset Explained

Kingdom As King Plus Domain

Greg Koukl 14:44

Yeah, Scott, there's a lot there. Uh and you're touching um, you know, a happy nerve for me because standard reason is built on this concept. It's incarnational. We're not just trying to convey information, which we do, and other organizations do, and I'm glad they do that. But we are incarnational. We're trying to build a certain type of person, we call them an ambassador. Um, that is our role in the culture. A lot of people think in terms of evangelism, and of course that's entailed but you know, evangelism has kind of got a negative connotation with a lot of people, even with Christians, because it seems confrontational. And I like the ambassadors for Christ, 2 Corinthians 5.20, where Paul is talking actually in that paragraph, there's five different references to reconciliation in some form. And and and and he says we are in that process where we're agents of reconciliation between Christ and the rest of the world. Uh we are um, I should say, between God and the rest of the world. That's the way Paul puts it, we beg of you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. Um the the that I I like the idea of a more of a genial diplomacy that you kind of take away from the concept of being an ambassador. So when I think of myself as an ambassador, part of what I'm thinking about is a much different motif or posture than as an evangelist. You know, it just feels different to me. And I like that better. And it's there's a softer element to it, even though it's purposeful. And at standard reason, we kind of look at three different areas of a good ambassador. This applies to any ambassador representing any sovereign. There's a knowledge component, you have to know the message that is meant to be communicated by the sovereign to whoever he has sent the ambassador to reach. There is a a wisdom component that is a maneuvering kind of element, and that's the tactical element, and I've written a book about that. Um, and then there's often overlooked the character component. Because if you've got all the knowledge and you're clever in conversations, you can maneuver really well. But but you're a you're you're a womanizer or you know, a drunk, or just plain rude, um then you can see how the character is going to undermine the entire element. So those are the three areas I think any good ambassador uh needs to be developing, ambassador for Christ needs to be developing in order to be more effective as an ambassador. Knowledge, wisdom, and character. And we have a very particular way of characterizing it at Standaries, and this might be helpful to some of your listeners. Knowledge is an accurately informed mind. In other words, you have to have the you have to have the you don't have to be like a perfect in all areas of theology, or if you're talking about a political ambassador of all of those elements, but you've got to know the message that is meant to be communicated in the context of the culture you're reaching. So when Dwight and I were in Thailand, I mean there were certain cultural sensibilities you always had to be sensitive to. You know, you didn't put your feet up, for example. You know, you didn't tower over people, you know, you kind of crouched down, you know, because these were all culturally offensive to people. And that would so there's a knowledge component, an accurately informed mind. There's also the wisdom component, which we call an artful method. An artful method. And this is where, you know, I've always emphasized since I, you know, I kind of work these ideas out, um, using questions to navigate. And this is the secret of low stress but highly effective interactions in which the Christian ambassador can maintain a tremendous amount of safety in the conversation because questions keep you safe. You're asking other questions, you're not having you're not making statements that you have to then defend. But state questions are can are very flexible and you can make lots of lots of headway, even making your own point by asking questions. Okay, I wrote another book called Street Smarts, and the subtitle is uh Using Questions to Answer Christianity's toughest challenges, so it can be used in different ways. Character is an attractive manner. It's an attractive manner. I mean, I I love that. Accurately informed mind, an artful method, an attractive manner. There's a nice euphony there in English, and it's memorable. But those are the things that we encourage people to keep in mind in all their engagements and after a conversation to go back and reflect. Was I did I need a prep um bone up in my knowledge? Was my maneuvering? Could I kind of improve there? What about my character? Was I nice? You know, be nice. That's like duh. That's a that's a pretty straightforward.

Speaker 4 19:43

Okay. And then one thing I'll say about the kingdom thing is as it and I I developed this in the story of reality. One thing I noticed about the opening line of the of the story, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. So you have a king who creates a domain, his domain. So you have a king and a dome.

Speaker 3 20:03

You have a kingdom right there in the first line.

Speaker 4 20:06

And it's interesting later on in the story when John the Baptist shows up, he's preaching the kingdom of God, and he indicates Jesus over there, Lamb of God, he preaches the kingdom. He trades a bunch of guys to preach the kingdom. And here's the way I understand that in a broadest sense, and obviously it's a rich notion that can be that can be developed a lot. But I I the the appeal of the kingdom is to draw rebels, rebels to the king, back in under the appropriate authority of the sovereign. It's a call back to be under the proper sovereign of the universe. And in other words, God's in charge. And um I I actually think that that message sometimes gets lost in a certain way that we share the gospel and evangelize. And um, and and and I think to our discredit, we we lose, we've lost some of the emphasis on look at what we're kind of in trouble here, people. You know, it's not just like join up and be part of the happy family because God loves everybody and everything's wonderful. No, God's right now, God's a little bit ticked off. And you can see that in the messages of the book of Acts, in fact, because they don't even talk about the love of God at all. So I think this broader um, and these are the people Jesus changed to follow after him. Now, obviously the love of God is manifest in the message, and I'm not taking exception with that, but but um the idea to me, the operative idea of kingdom is God's in charge, it's his program, and we're not with it. And there's a call back, now there's an entry point, that's the grace and mercy of God that makes it possible to be return able to return, and that's the door by which we come in. But we're coming in underneath now the authority of the king of the universe. And I think that for me, that's the best way to understand the broadest kind. Of theme of the Bible, kingdom, and how it manifests in our own behavior and in our appeal to other people. We're not just giving fire insurance, we want you to come back to the Father who made you for friendship with him.

Luke Allen 22:16

Hi, friends, thanks again for joining us today. If you've listened to this show for any length of time, you'll know that ideas have consequences is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. And as a nonprofit ministry, we are grateful and thankful to offer all of our podcasts and our biblical worldview courses completely for free, thanks to our generous supporters. If this podcast has been a blessing to you, we would greatly appreciate it if you would subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you are listening today. Or you can also help by simply sharing your favorite episode with a friend. And if you're able, we hope that you'll consider supporting this podcast with a donation to the Disciple Nations Alliance. To give, visit discipleNations.org and click on the blue donate button right there on the home page. And we also have our website linked down in the show notes below. And now for a word from our friends over at the Center for Biblical Unity about their new ambassadors program. Guys, this program is a great opportunity to deepen your understanding of a biblical worldview through trusted teachings and practical trainings. You might even recognize some of our books from the Disciple Nations Alliance in the syllabus. And one of the instructors is some guy named Scott Allen, who you might recognize. If you're ready to take your understanding of a biblical worldview to the next level, then we encourage you to check this program out.

Speaker 23:40

Can one person really make a difference and push back against the darkness? At the Center for Biblical Unity, we're passionate about equipping Christians to tackle today's cultural challenges through a distinctly biblical worldview. That is why we are launching the Ambassadors for Biblical Justice Cohort. This nine-month mentoring program will walk you through the vital and practical tools you need to make a real difference in your community. Maybe you're a mother of a special needs child who has a heart to reach out to other special needs children in your local church. Or maybe you're a pastor who wants to more effectively address poverty in your community. Or maybe you're a businessman who wants to connect the dots between your vocation and your worldview. Whoever you are, if you have a heart for justice and want to explore how it aligns with the historic Christian faith, this program is for you. We are now accepting applications from our inaugural 2026 cohort. You will be mentored by seasoned Christian leaders who will help you apply biblical principles to real-world issues of justice, poverty, and cultural renewal. For more information, please visit Center for Biblical Unity.com backslash ambassador. Come be a part of our effort to change the world one life at a time.

Scott Allen 25:12

I loved it. And that was one of the things that stood out to me was the way that you began that book by talking about a king. And he was a king, God the creator, by virtue of the fact that everything that he created, you know, he he was sovereign over, you know. And uh so the kingdom idea um comes from the very beginning, and then as you said, it becomes a theme that runs through the entire Bible. In fact, the story of reality is the story of a king and a kingdom. And I I like what you said, um, you know, a call back to to to the king, to to his you know, his sovereign rule. Um I think that's so good. At the same time, Greg, there's so much confusion. I see it all the time in the church on this subject, and especially right now, it seems to be very heated. Uh, there's a lot of debates about the kingdom. Um, you know, one of the verses that I hear quoted a lot, of course, is um the uh Jesus as he was standing before Pilate, um, you know, that he said, My kingdom is not of this world. And people kind of love to quote that and say, in a way that says the kingdom, God's kingdom, is it's not of this world, it's of heaven, and it's not kind of almost the I guess the implication is it's not really relevant for this world. It will be when he comes back with his kingdom, when he returns, then we can start talking about the subject of the kingdom, but not really before. You know, it's just it's not really before that that that it's relevant. And my concern with that, honestly, is that it what what it I think it leads to practically is a kind of a disengagement in the brokenness of this world and an act almost it's almost like God doesn't care about the world. He will when he comes back, but until then, he's just kind of kind of rescuing people out of the world into heaven, and the world can kind of go to hell, you know, or something like that, and that's okay, you know. Um what are your thoughts about all this, Greg? I've really been anxious to hear uh kind of what you think about all this in in in the context of what we're talking about as ambassadors for the kingdom here.

Speaker 4 27:18

Of course, and uh and I do see this problem, and I do think it's a problem. It's a it's a it's it's kind of a myopic oversimplification. It's like they're not really seeing through uh I mean beyond uh that statement that Jesus makes. Okay. And um I mean if you think of the context there, there Jesus is on trial, he's innocent, and Pilate knows it. And and so he's giving an opportunity. Aren't you gonna speak whatever? Are you the king or not? He said, Well, not of this world. I'm not in your system. That's all he's saying. I'm not gonna rescue myself the way you will rescue yourself. I'm not gonna do what you want me to do here and get get I'm not just gonna cooperate with that, all right? And that's all he's saying. He's not saying that believers should, the disciples should just disengage from the world and only preach the sweet by and by, you know. And and here's the the most cogent defense of that notion. What did Jesus do for three and a half years? Think of John the Baptist. Are you the one? John's in jail, he's discouraged. Jesus said, You tell him this the blind see, the lame walk, the dead rise, the poor, and here uh it's so obvious to me that he means the spiritually poor because he makes this reference in a certain amount, spiritual poverty. He's not talking about people who are financially poor. He never addressed financially poor people ever, not a single word, all four gospels. I read every single line of every gospel to look at that. The poor, the spiritually poor, have the gospel preached to them. All right. And uh and but notice that it's not just the poor have the cross the spiritually the poor have the gospel. He did all these other things. He met the needs that were there in front of him because he had compassion for the people. And so I I mean that to me is when you look at the the the fullness, no, Jesus wasn't telling people to go to the polls, they didn't have suffrage then. Nobody nobody voted. So it was not appropriate. You're not gonna campaign against slavery. That was not even uh possible in that set of circumstances, but in in the sense of addressing the needs of people that the needs which were not in themselves directly related to their spiritual condition. Jesus did that. Now, of course, it had consequence, you know. The deeds that he j he did, the the attesting miracles, bore test in order that you may know that the Son of Man has the power to forgive sins. I say to you, Arise, take up your palate and walk. Mark II. So it was a testimony to that spiritual element. But a lot of times he's just out there he's healing. And he's healing because there are sheep without a shepherd, they have many needs, and he healed everybody that came to him.

Scott Allen 30:29

Yeah, you know, I i we think of the kingdom when God dwelled directly with us in the Garden of Eden, and then of course when he returns in the new heaven and the new earth. And there there is no, you know, brokenness and you know, there's no more t you know, there's pain and suffering. And so I think here's Jesus being an ambassador for the kingdom, if you will, right? He's showing us exactly what this looks like back when it, you know, ha was was the reality in the Garden of Eden and what it's going to be like when he returns. And that's why I think he said, isn't it, you know, the kingdom is here, it's present. I'm I'm I am the ambassador of the kingdom. I'm showing you what it's going to look like. Um yeah, in in kind of its fullest sense. Dwight, I would like to bring you in. I don't know, uh, Greg, you may not know this, but Dwight just completed a really terrific book um on the kingdom of God on this very subject. Um Dwight, why don't you explain a little bit about that book and and what questions come to your mind uh in this discussion on the kingdom from from your writing?

Speaker 2 31:28

Yeah, I'll just say in short, Greg, I I bear witness with your you're you're saying he's calling us back to his his authority, his rulership, his kingship. Because I that's what struck out at me as I read the book. It's like God's calling us back. What's he calling us back to? He's calling us back to his goodness, to what he designed for us, to how he designed us to live. And that's actually the essence of the book. What is the title of the book, Dwight? Uh actually I call it Made to Live, the good news of the kingdom, because when I think of what God created in Genesis 1 and 2, the outcome is life and a really, really amazing way to live. And so Adam and Eve had that, and then of course it was lost. And and it's not that we're gonna go forward to it. We're he's calling us back to Eden, calling us back. So when Jesus was healing, I see him healing. Well, that's I'm I'm trying to fix something that was broken, you know, right and uh go back. Well, anyway, and this idea of yeah, I'm not of this world, I am not of this world system. We'll send you we'll send you a copy, Greg.

Scott Allen 32:32

Yeah, we'll put it in the mail after the conversations over here today. Thank you. You can say that ten times.

Speaker 2 32:37

I'm not of this world system.

Scott Allen 32:40

Well, that's helpful, Greg. Yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry.

Luke Allen 32:43

Yeah, I mean the ver the verse, people use it all the time, uh be an ambassador of Christ. I love it. It's a beautiful verse. You know, be reflect Christ in everything you do, become more Christ-like. But sometimes the I struggle a little bit with it because when it's this calling back to is it calling us back to Christ, because Christ the person is a little bit hard for me to look at as a blueprint for all of my life um and all of my interactions in the world, what I'm doing, what I'm building. Uh whereas whereas the idea of the kingdom is a little bit easier for me to wrap my head around. It's more of a blueprint of a a way of a way of life, uh a culture that I'm trying to create, a culture that I'm trying to build, represent, reflect, all of that. And that concept to me just is makes a little bit more sense for me to wrap my head around like what's my trajectory here. And for that reason, I just I I love it when people say and be ambassadors of the kingdom. Because that just just have an easier time to wrap my head around it because we're trying to represent something here.

Are We Extending The Kingdom

Speaker 4 33:45

And it was interesting the way Paul put it, and I kind of corrected myself midstream there. He he said, Be we beg on you, we beg of you on behalf of Christ to be reconciled to God. And so that pulling back in to relationship with God. Now, obviously, we have a Trinitarian uh understanding of God, and Christ is God, but sometimes that he's he's positioned there as the Messiah, as the human messiah, the God man who is bringing us back into relationship with the Father. And um, in that regard, I in this, I want to be careful I say this because I don't want to be misunderstood, but um, Jesus is actually not our model in everything. He is our model as the perfect human being and the perfect model of virtuous humanity, and we are in our in our um sanctification are being made like him, and this is Paul's promise in Romans 8, that he's working all things together for good for those who love and are called according to his purpose. For those who we foreknew he predestined to become conformed to the image of his son. So the way God's using all this stuff is to make us like Jesus, all right. But there was a whole lot of stuff that Jesus was involved with that was reflective of his divine nature, you know, uh, and Romans, um rather John 5 talks about Jesus. I give life to who I want to give life to, and uh everybody should honor me as as they honored the Father. Well, that's for him, that isn't a guide for us, and he's also the the the Christ, the Messiah. So w when we look at his life, um, and this is why I I'm I resonate with you on this Luke, where uh for me the advancing of the kingdom and drawing people back to God is is uh is more um I can sink my teeth into that a little bit better than than than having Jesus uh maybe in the way I want to do all the things that Jesus did, and Jesus didn't campaign against slavery, so I'm not gonna campaign, whatever. You know, that Jesus did what he was supposed to do then, and some of that was very unique to the incarnate Son of God who is also the Messiah. As the perfect human being that he was, that we are being sanctified into, we have different marching orders that apply to us. And as Jesus, as I mentioned earlier, gave an example of meeting particular needs that were temporal needs of the people there that were were not directly related to the message of salvation, but were to meeting human need because he had compassion for them. Those are things that we could do in the context of our culture now, and we ought to be doing as we're able to do that. It's what Dwight and I did, you know, umpteen decades ago in a prior life almost, it seems like Dwight, it was so long ago, it was more than half my life ago. But in the capacity that we were able to serve there, we were advancing the kingdom and being Christ-like in the context of those particular needs. Can I just stop you? And so I I find with you that I can I resonate more with the kingdom notion in that regard. Go ahead.

Scott Allen 36:52

I just want to use it, just the language there you just used, I think, uh, is something I struggled with. You said you were talking about your time in the refugee camps with Dwight, and you said we were advancing the kingdom. And I've had people um take real exception to that language, advan you know, we we are advancing the kingdom. Um and I I I don't, you know, sometimes I need to follow up and find out exactly what the objection is. I think sometimes it's an objection to uh kind of a human-centered power, like we're doing this, you know, almost apart from God. Um I think another way that people may object to it is um, you know, no, God does this when he comes back, you know, and the the the he's the one who's advancing his kingdom, not not you, not us. And so talk of you know, we're advancing the kingdom becomes a bit problematic. Any thoughts that you have or wisdom on that? Because I I do struggle with that, you know, just in terms of clarity with my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Speaker 4 37:46

Well, um, yeah, I have thoughts about that. Uh by the way, God has arranged to give um rewards. Talk about crowns and different language that's used. You only get a reward for something that you deserve. You have to do something. Now people say, Well, we're throwing the crowns at his feet in the end. I said, that yeah, maybe, but that's not my point. God is giving a something because of merit. Now, not salvation, clearly. But as we walk with God, we're doing things ourselves that we have a choice to do that is meritorious in God's mind, which is why he rewards those particular acts. I mean, a call-a calling to do, right?

Scott Allen 38:31

More than just a choice. I mean, really a calling to do, right? You have an assignment to say, Yes, well, a responsibility, and we're told.

Speaker 4 38:38

So some sometimes there's a what's going on here, um, Scott, is a um is a some certain theology about sanctification is doing work. So there was there's an idea, for example, all of God and none of me. All of God and none of me. I think that's not biblical. Okay, here's the way I I would put it, and it's kind of I'm trading on the Chalcedonian formula. It's a hundred percent God and a hundred percent me. In other words, God has a hundred percent responsibility for his side of the equation, and here I'm talking not about salvation, I'm talking about the issue of uh service and and the like and uh sanctification. Uh God's gonna do his job, but he gives there's all kinds of marching orders we have in the New Testament, those are there for a reason because we're expected to do them. Independence on God based on gifts that he's given us. Peter says, look, it you got a gift, use it as a as a good servant to the glory of God, but get going. Okay, and so um and that is we are 100% responsible for that. So my goal as a Christian worker, servant, ambassador, whatever, is to take whatever gifts that I have at the moment and try to employ them with good effort. And when I do that, I can feel good about the results. This is why Proverbs says, let another one praise you, not your own mouth. So don't praise yourself. But you know what, other people are gonna say nice things about the good things that happen because you were meaningfully involved in the process of producing that. So you can receive the thanks as uh in appropriately, is kind of the way I take that passage. So we have a part. And if somebody is saying, Oh, you're not extending the kingdom, I'd say, of course I am. Watch. Now I'm not doing it on my strength, but I'm a player here. I'm not just an empty. You're not a zero.

Scott Allen 40:33

He always says that, you're not a zero. And I and that's true, yeah. God, God created us to be to be kings as well. I think that's something that we don't often like take to heart, that he has expectations for us as kings. Now, vice regents, right? You know, we're not kings on his level by any means, but we're still kings, you know, and as kings we have responsibility, you know, to rule rightly uh under his kingdom.

Speaker 2 40:58

So um, I've I have a question for for you, Greg. Um actually a couple, but I'll just ask one right now. That is what's changed in your thinking in the last ten years, or what's not changed, but how have you seen your understanding of God and his purposes for the world and for your ministry evolve? What what um Is that too big?

Speaker 4 41:19

No, no, that's uh it is big, but it's a really good question. And I I think more than anything else, um, Dwight, I I have had a much deeper appreciation for the sovereignty of God. And especially in the hardships of life. You know, um I had a conversation with my daughter. She I got an 18-year-old, which is like I know I'm an old guy, so that looks really weird. And people tell me, Well, how did that happen? I said, I don't remember, but uh I need prayer. Abraham. In any event, yeah, it was I think it was yesterday. We're driving back from the airport, she picked me up, and um and I was I was just talking about this. I said that there are a lot of hardships that come into your life, but there's a reason I told her, as I've gotten older in the Lord, I have had a much more thankful attitude for the difficulties, the hardships. And I can genuinely from the bottom of my heart say thank you, Lord, for the durable hardships that I I've faced in my own life, and uh things that you know prayer hasn't made a dent in for many, many years. I still pray about it, you know, but still, because I understand that that this is what the the gift that God has given me to um to to to strengthen me and build me up and and make me more like Jesus and make me more capable of taking more responsibility for fruitful things in the kingdom. And and uh that is in huge dwight. Um and and as each year goes on, I feel I feel like I settle into that more um more comfortably. And I told her too, he says, yeah, and this is not gonna go away. When you kind of rise to the occasion of one set of challenges, it isn't like everything gets mellow. It's like you get a new set of challenges that God provides that is going to, you know, okay, now it's harder. But you're more equipped, you get inured over time to the exposure, just like uh, you know, I think the military um metaphors are and and uh analogs are are appropriate here. You get toughened to the task so you can be you can take on more. And that's twite probably more than anything else, that has been the biggest most significant thing in the last ten years in my life as a as a follower of Christ.

Scott Allen 43:43

Thanks for sharing that, Greg. I well, I I want to, you know, your time is short, Greg. I want to circle back to something you said at the beginning when we were talking about being ambassadors that I thought was really helpful. And I just want to underscore it for our listeners. I think this is a great takeaway to be a faithful uh ambassador. For Christ and His kingdom. It requires knowledge. We have to be aware of the message of the kingdom that we represent. You know, the story of the kingdom, the story of reality. We need wisdom in terms of the method of communication. And then you said the one that's often neglected is we have to reflect the character of the king, the the attractive manner. I just think that those three elements, if I just think it's really practical, Greg, and I just want to thank you for that.

Speaker 4 44:29

I I um you know, in terms of uh D Darrow, uh our mentor and co-worker Daryl Miller, who you know as well, uh he said there's really three It's been a long time since I've seen Daryl, but I I owe an immense uh debt of gratitude to him for initiating this whole enterprise with me and Food for the Hungry back many, many years ago.

Tactics For Postmodern Conversations

Scott Allen 44:49

He's also stayed so faithful and has just been, you know, he's been uh like a father to me, a mentor and a father, and so faithful to the ministry that he he began. He but uh it back to the message, he said you have to understand um you have to understand the message of the the kingdom of God, you know, you have to understand that story. It is a story, and you have to understand that really well. You have to understand the story of the people that you're working amongst, right? Because they have a different story, right? They they a different storyline. Um in the beginning uh is matter, and matter is all that exists, and we are just highly evolved creatures in, you know, material beings or whatever that story is. We they have a story as well. And then you have to understand the story of the culture that you come from if you're working cross-culturally, because that's shaped you and as well as the the story of the scripture. I always appreciated Darrow saying that, but uh the um the the wisdom, though, I just want to talk, maybe we could kind of wrap up with this. We live at a time, this is the the kind of the method, and and you have to understand the culture that you're you're speaking to. You that's really you you said that's really important. And right now we live in in the West, in a in a postmodern time, when talking about truth just shuts down conversations. Um how do you uh what what does wisdom or tactical diplomacy look like in for Christians who are trying to speak truthfully at in a time when when truth is uh just discounted, not even really believed in?

Speaker 4 46:19

Yeah, this is what I spend quite a bit of time on in that book, Tactics, and there's a basic game plan, and it's actually quite simple. There are three steps to it, but they all involve asking questions. And when you think about it, the the very first model question, uh let me back up. The first step is to just gather information. That's all you're worried about when you get in a conversation with somebody, even if they're pushing back, you want to get information. And part of the goal there is to have a clear understanding of that point you made, kind of where they're coming from, what is their outlook, uh, their perspective. And and and I I really encourage people to spend a lot of time doing that. Uh for one, you you you don't want to misrepresent their view, whatever that happens to be. Um that's just bad manners and it's bad thinking, it's a straw man fallacy. But but you it also shows respect for them. Uh Paul says in Colossians 4, so you know how to respond to each person. And so you have to deal with people who are individuals. And you have to um, and how do you find that out? Well, you you you let them talk. Um, and when you let them talk, that's polite. And you're getting valuable information, and it's safe because you're not putting your ideas on the line, but you are also gathering tremendous amount of valuable information as you continue to ask questions, and the model question is that I suggest is some form of the question, what do you mean by that? And um so if a guy says, look, I don't believe in God. I said, What kind of God don't you believe in? I'm kind of curious because there's you know lots of maybe I don't believe in the God that you don't believe in, right? And so uh I just want him to talk about their the the views. So so those are um the it doesn't matter. Yeah, uh you mentioned a postmodern culture. Um I think we we have to be careful we don't take that too seriously. And I'll tell you why that is. Um and I learned this from Francis Schaefer back in the 70s when I was a fairly new Christian, and uh Francis Schaefer said, and this I I developed this idea in the uh in the tactics book of the tactic I call inside out. And what ta uh Schaefer said is that hey, the fact is everybody is made in the image of God. And everybody has to live in the world that God made. And so even though they might deny aspects of that as they're promoting their philosophy or whatever point of view, it turns out they can't get away from that. Deep inside they know better, and on unguarded moments, they are going to talk about this. We the this two yesterday was a Saturday, I was in San Jose, we had a conference, a QA, and there's an atheist on the on the um on the team, and uh in the Q ⁇ A, and he was saying how, you know, he doesn't he he he he doesn't need God, he doesn't harm anybody. He tries to leave a good life. Now notice something here. The atheist cannot have an objective morality because there's no grounding for it. It's just molecules in the universe, you know, in the beginning where they're particles, like you were saying a moment ago, Scott. Um so there's no there's no basis for that at all. Um and many carefully thinking atheists have uh had admitted this, but he's what is he doing? He's trading. I'm already a good person. See, I don't try to hurt people. He is importing a Christian notion, or at least a notion that's consistent with theism, a moral notion, and yeah, it's exactly hijacking. Now, why does he do that? He does that because he's made the image of God and he's got morality built in, and he's trying to smuggle that in, hijack it or whatever. Okay, so this is an example of what I'm talking about. And uh at the end of that particular chapter, um I I write, people can run from God, but they can't run from themselves. Okay, and so when I when I'm addressing anybody anymore, even with the postmodern impulse, um, it's wildly self-s self-refuting, you know, that when the when the philosophers play this all out. And I don't even know how they can't see this because that's the suicide tactic when the commit when a point of view commits suicide. I know that I can speak to these individuals or these audiences, and I can speak actual truth to them, and they will understand that I'm speaking truth because they operate in terms of truth. Postmodern people, we don't believe in reason. I certainly don't believe in Christianity. Why not? Here's the reasons.

unknown 50:43

Right.

Speaker 4 50:43

A, B, C, D, E, you know?

Speaker 3 50:46

Huh? Well, what on the one hand they're talking like postmodernists, on the other hand, they're talking like human beings made in the image of God. Now, if we know that, we don't have to be afraid of all of these trends. We need to be sensitive to them, be aware of them, ask questions about them.

Speaker 4 51:03

There is no truth. Okay, that this sounds really simplistic, but my question is, I I'm not sure how I'm supposed to take that.

Speaker 3 51:09

I think you want me to take it seriously, right? I think you want me to believe it, right? But the minute I try to believe that what you said was true, you're telling me I can't do that. So now I'm confused. What am I supposed to do with that?

People Are Coming Back To Church

Speaker 4 51:20

Now notice these were there's a I end with a question. Now the ball's back in their court, okay? And they there's nothing they can do with it because they they've just walked themselves into a corner, and because I I see that I can use a question to do that. So I m my point here with regard to the postmodern, so-called postmodern culture, I think there certainly is a postmodern impulse. Everything's relativistic. I mean, you do you. What more profound characterization of personal relativism can you find? And that's kind of the the clarion cry of the age. But nevertheless, people are getting tired of this. And there is a change afoot, and you can see it on the higher levels and also among students. And I think what happened with Charlie Kirk in September 10th was a just a force multiplier. There churches are filling up, Bibles are selling like crazy, youth groups are filling up, and everywhere I go, people see it. Something is going on. And I think in principle, people are realizing how empty the worldly way is. It doesn't satisfy that deep hunger of their heart being made in the image of God.

Scott Allen 52:27

So well said. That's a great place to kind of wrap it up. It is such a hopeful time uh note to wrap up on. God is as long as is stirring right now. There's no doubt about it. And uh uh thanks for those words. Uh Luke or Dwight, uh final thoughts from you as we wrap up today.

Speaker 2 52:43

Uh I had one. It was my other question was what's your message for the church today?

Speaker 4 52:49

Well, I I I I got really frustrated uh just on my own show, people calling in and dealing with people, younger people especially, and I pick a little post-it, I put it in my front Bible, in the front of my Bible, and I wrote this line. I said, faithfulness is not theologically complicated. Okay, you take marriage, you take sex, you take gender, you take abortion, you take Jesus being the only way, you just go right down the line. These are all controversial issues, okay? Front and center in the culture. I get that. But it's not hard. If you're a Christian, why are you faltering on this? Why is there confusion in your mind? My my challenge to the church is just be faithful. That's it. Put your hand to the plow and don't look back. It's not hard. In other words, it's not like there's all these gray areas where we just don't know what the truth is as revealed by God. No, look at it. It's right there. And it's repeated many times. And I mean, some people think, well, the abortion issue is not clear. Just go to Luke chapter 1. And there's Mar Mary and Elizabeth, and just look at their conversation. Obviously, John the Baptist in the second trimester, and Jesus is as I goat, and John the Baptist is leaping with joy in the presence of Jesus, the Lord, the mother of my Lord. I mean, so it's all there. Just put your hand to the plow and keep moving forward and don't be concerned about the mob. And here I got a verse for him. It's Mark 15, 15. And Mark 15, 15, this is uh Jesus with Pilate, and Pilate's trying to get him off. He can release somebody. He tells the crowd, who do you want, Jesus or Barabbas? They say, uh, Barabbas. Well, what do you do with Jesus? Crucify him. Okay, next line, verse 15. Wishing to please the crowd. Note that. Wishing to please the crowd. He released Barabbas, had Jesus scourged and crucified. And I tell the audiences, especially young people, he says, Man, you you so many young people want are siding with Barabbas. They're acting like uh like Pilate. And they're turning back on their savior. Don't let it be you. Just make a decision right now. You're not going to please the mob. You want to end your life hearing the words Well done. Good and faithful servant. Amen. Shoot for that goal. That would be my message.

Scott Allen 55:20

Absolutely. Thanks. That's great. Well, Greg, thanks so much for your time today and just these incredible words. I know I'll be reflecting on them the rest of the day and beyond. And uh and just for your ministry, um, the books that you've written, the uh radio pro radio and the podcast, and the all that you've done in the area of apologetics. We're so grateful for you, Greg, and grateful for this time.

Speaker 4 55:39

Oh, thank you. I appreciate it. I'm glad for what you guys are doing too. And Dwight, what a treat to see you again after all these years. In the saddle, wearing the yoke, your hand at the plow. That's the way that's the same.