Why the Sexual Revolution Has Africa in Its Crosshairs | Stephen Langa

Episode Summary: 

The sexual revolutionaries are trying to disciple the nations, and Africa is their mission field. Why is the West colonizing Uganda through coercive sexual ideology and political pressure? Why has our friend and guest found himself at the center of a global culture war?

This week, we sit down with Stephen Langa from Kampala to discuss the clash between Western sexual revolution ideology and Uganda’s efforts to simply protect families and children.

Stephen shares firsthand stories of what this battle looks like on the ground in Uganda, along with courageous efforts to reach nations across Africa, including powerful stories from ministry work in hostile Muslim regions.

We unpack media narratives that seek to silence African Christians, the strategic global expansion of LGBTQ activism, religious liberty, child protection laws, and why worldview battles carry global consequences.

If you want to understand what is really happening in Uganda, why many African leaders are pushing back against this neocolonialism, and what is at stake for the future, this is an episode you do not want to miss.

Who is Disciple Nations Alliance (DNA)? Since 1997, DNA’s mission has been to equip followers of Jesus around the globe with a biblical worldview, empowering them to build flourishing families, communities, and nations. 👉 https://disciplenations.org/

🎙️Featured Speaker: 

Stephen Langa is a respected Christian leader from Uganda with decades of experience serving in the areas of family advocacy, leadership development, and cultural transformation. He is the Executive Director of Uganda Family Network and co-founder of Samaritan Strategy Africa, the African training group of the Disciple Nations Alliance.

Throughout his career, Stephen has worked closely with business leaders, government officials, and church networks to apply biblical principles to public life and community development. Based in Kampala, he has played a significant role in equipping leaders across Africa to think and live from a biblical worldview.

📌 Recommended Links

     👉 Book: Discipling Nations by Darrow Miller

     👉 Recommended Episode: Homosexuality, Ted Cruz, Uganda, and the Law with Tom Ascol

     👉 Discipleship Course: The Grand Design: Rediscovering Male and Female in the Imago Dei

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Episode Webpage

Transcript

Welcome And Steve’s Story

Scott Allen 0:00

Well we're privileged to today to be joined by a dear friend of our ministry, um Steve Monga, is joining us all the way from Kampala, Uganda. Steve, it's great to see you. How are you doing, brother?

Stephen Langa 0:14

Uh thank you very much. We have a lot of sunshine here, a lot of good weather, and uh we are doing well in the Lord.

Scott Allen 0:24

Amen. Steve.

Stephen Langa 0:25

I've known Steve for uh I don't know how many years now it goes back, Stephen, probably close to 25, 25, no, 26, 26 years about the season.

Scott Allen 0:37

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, because the DNA now is um we're celebrating our 30th anniversary next year, and we met Steve um early in the in the in the ministry. Um he was uh one of the original folks that um had heard the teaching in Uganda at the time. He was an elder at uh Watoto Church, um uh a very large and influential church. Steve, are you still on this uh elder board there at that church?

Stephen Langa 1:07

Or yes, I'm still an elder. Yes. That's our church. Once an elder, you remain an elder. Uh yeah, so I'm an elder, yes.

Training Christians In Darfur

Scott Allen 1:20

Steve was so he was an elder at a very influential church. We were teaching in Uganda. He heard the teaching of the DNA and uh um took it to heart and uh really felt like it was a timely teaching for the nation. And um and so he really um gave himself over to learning how to teach others and joined um uh a team that was put together really providentially by God, a team of uh uh folks from many different countries in Africa, South Africa, uh Uganda, of course, Kenya, um, Ghana. Uh very again, it was all by God's grace. We called that team uh Samaritan Strategy Africa, and they they came up uh with a plan uh to uh spread the teaching of the DNA across the continent of Africa. And uh I remember in the early days when we heard of that vision, Stephen, we said it was, you know, we thought you were kind of it was too ambitious and uh kind of encouraged you to set your sights a little bit lower on something a little more possible to accomplish. And uh they said, no, this is what we God has called us to do. And by God's grace, it was amazing just watching what happened and how this the teaching of the DNA spread. Literally, I don't know, there's there's very few places in the in the entire continent where trainers weren't trained and the teaching wasn't spread. And Stephen, you were right, right at the heart of that. So um that's just a little bit of background for our listeners on our relationship, who you are. Um we've not been in touch as much of late as we have as we uh used to be in the early days, but I know you're still super faithful in the work that you're doing. In addition to working with Samaritan Strategy Africa, being one of our key trainers, um, Steve is probably best known for being the executive director of the Family Life Network of Uganda. That's an organization that is uh dedicated to strengthening uh families and promoting biblical values in society. Steve has been prominently featured in national uh public radio, New York Times, and a number of Western press stories for his advocacy for the traditional male-female marriage. Uh, we'll talk a little bit about that, Stephen. You you're like an internationally known figure at this point, so we want to hear more of that story. Um but uh Steve is uh yeah, just uh a tremendous, tremendous brother in Christ. And if I could just add one more thing, Steve, before we get into some questions and your background, I just want to mention just your uh your courage. One of the things I've loved about Steve, and besides just his joy, is he's just such an effective trainer, but he's also incredibly courageous. We had an opportunity, I don't know, 10, 12 years ago, right as Sudan was separating um into uh Sudan and South Sudan, uh we had an opportunity to spread the training uh into that country. And um I called Stephen and asked if he would be willing to go and represent the DNA and do what we call a vision casting. And he went up and uh did training not only in Khartoum, uh, which is, you know, this this is a very Islamic country. Um, but but then, Steve, you had this opportunity to go to Darfur, which is one of the most dangerous places in all of Sudan, and you actually did a DNA vision conference with primarily primarily Muslims in Darfur. Do you do you want to share any memories about that, Steve? I always think of that like it just took such a bold kind of person to be willing to take a trip like that.

Stephen Langa 5:24

Um well, yes, I had a team uh in Khartoum, and uh I wanted to train them so that they can stand on their own. So I asked them if uh there's a place that uh we can go, I can go with them and then watch them in action and uh uh you know, so that I can see how they're doing and uh and and mentor them. So they decided a place called Nyala. Now, Nyala, I don't know. They know their country, so I didn't I didn't care where it was as long as they knew. So they prepared. Now that country is very it has Sharia law since 1983, Sharia law, and um any Christian doing any ministry must get permission from the Ministry of Religious Affairs to leave Khartoum. You cannot leave Khartoum without it. So they went and applied uh for for permission. Uh they came back and said, Oh, it takes a it takes a month. Uh, but I only had a couple of days. But they said, Well, I think we can still go. Uh so let's just go. So we went and um this we went to uh we took a flight there and it's a two-hour flight. Imagine how big Sudan is, you know, two hours. You can imagine you are still within the country, but they gave me very strict instructions. Don't say anything, don't say anything. We will do all the talking, you just uh move. Now at that time, I didn't know that we're going to Darfur. So we went, the flight was good, you know. They did all the talking, they're talking Arabic and and all that. Then when we got there, and of course, as we're going to land, I could see tanks and ammunition, you know. Yes, war zone, but I didn't know, you know, I didn't know. So we landed, and after we landed, they decided to leave me behind, they left me alone. So I'm on my own and I'm just going out. I got out of the plane, and uh I saw there were some soldiers, I saw all heavy military uh uh ammunition around, but it didn't mean much. Then I decided to walk to the uh arrival lounge. But thank god I changed my mind. The bus had come, uh so I decided to to okay, let me go for the for the bus instead, which was really, really you know providential. So anyway, I went to the bus and uh I went through the arrival lounge. I took my luggage and I don't see these guys. Took my luggage and then I walked out of the uh that place to the arrival. So they were waiting for me there, and when I got to them, they said, This is a miracle, this is a miracle that you have you have actually come. So nobody asked me anything, and so on. Now I didn't know I was in the four until the evening when now we were having dinner, and then uh there was uh a couple, a Christian couple uh from Syria. So in the conversation, uh I told them where I come from. And they're like, You're from Uganda, and you are here.

Scott Allen 9:21

I mean, Stephen, just for our listeners, you you you have to remember, and many people probably have forgotten during the really violent, bloody civil wars of Sudan, Darfur was one of the most dangerous and violent of all of the cities uh uh in that war. And you so you're right in the heart of one of the most dangerous places, and especially for a Christian, okay.

Stephen Langa 9:45

Exactly, exactly. And and I didn't know so, anyway, uh to cut the long story short, then the next day we we we trained the Christian. Now, all these were Christians who were formerly Muslims, they just recently converted, right? Yes, yes, all of them, all of them, because there was no church there before, and so there was just a a brother from South Sudan who was there as a missionary, and he was doing the evangelism and all that kind of stuff, and there was really no church per se, there was just a fellowship. So I took them through a whole day of training, biblical worldview, and you know, all that kind of stuff. And what I can say, the experience was like the way Paul uh would go to a virgin land. That's how I felt that here we are planting the seeds of the gospel because we had the privilege to elect, um uh to choose rather elders, to choose the pastors, you know, and all that kind of stuff, and we prayed for them and released them among their own people, and uh, you know, and then we left them. So then now I came back the following day. Now, when we went to the airport, we I was told I don't say anything. So we went through a security and we were told to move forward. Now, when we were waiting for the plane, the gentleman told me who I was with, told me that he was asked, Are you both Sudanese? And he said he told them in their language, what do you think? What do you think? So he just told them to go. So I mean, um, that's how we we we we escaped. Now, up to that time, I didn't know how serious the matter was until I went back to Khartoum and I met our ambassador. Uh, when I told her where I was, she said, What? Where are you here? She said, even I, as an ambassador, cannot go there. We have been stopped from going there. If I had, if you had asked me before, I would have told you not to go there. But anyway, God took us there. We did the mission and we came out safely. That's when I saw, really, God is amazing. And at that time, I didn't realize how serious the issue is. I I realized more afterwards than while I was in there. So we thank God and that church. Yeah.

Scott Allen 12:29

Yeah, it's just an example of just your courage, but also your deep faithfulness and your willingness to go to places that very few people would be willing to go to. Um, you know, as many stories as you have like that, Stephen, the thing we wanted to focus on today is this topic of um what we're going to call neocolonialism, especially around the uh Western sexual revolution. And um, you've been right at the heart of that. You have an amazing story to tell. But um what I mean by that is that um the LGBTQ movement and just the sexual revolution of the West has been, we had Seth Gruber on, Luke, you remember that? Um he talked about the history of this in the West, going back to Freud and Darwin and Margaret Sanger, uh, you know, back in the turn of the century, the late 1800s, early 1900s. It's they've their vision, their their missionary zeal to transform society in their um according to their worldview, um has been really amazing to watch. And just not only has it uh deeply affected the United States, North America, Europe, but uh in recent years, I mean over the last decade, uh it's set its sights on the rest of the world and has been really aggressively bringing this message of the sexual Western sexual revolution to places like Uganda. And that's where Stephen uh comes into play. Uh Stephen, you've been fighting a fight on this uh for a long time now, and I know it continues even to this day. And I wonder when I say colonialism, I'm saying these aren't indigenous ideas to Uganda, not to the church, not even to the non-Christian, you know, uh animistic kind of culture of Uganda. These aren't these aren't indigenous ideas. They're coming from the West and they're being imposed, really, in the same way we might think of uh imperialism or colonialism. There's an irony because the people that are supposedly in the West the most anti-colonial or anti-imperial are completely behind this movement of imposing these values and beliefs uh today, right now, in Africa, in Latin America, et cetera. Um, you know, we've gotten a little bit of reprieve with the Trump administration, especially uh in the State Department and whatnot. But in previous administrations, it was very aggressive. Stephen if you could just tell our listeners, uh, just the I know this is a long story with lots of chapters, but if you could just give them a brief overview of kind of how it started for you, what you were doing, what you saw, and and what happened. Um, then we'll just kind of pick it up from there. And Luke, I just want to invite you to to jump in too as you have questions.

Luke Allen 15:42

So yeah, my first question, and you just defined it, Ed, but if if Steven, if you could also define neocolonialism, I think it's a new term for a lot of people, and they're probably just trying to wrap their head around what this what this means.

Scott Allen 15:53

Yeah, Steve, it's good. Yeah, yeah, add to what I said about this kind of neocolonialism, yeah.

Family Life Network Begins

Speaker 16:00

Yes, uh, my understanding of neocolonialism is uh uh the second phase of uh colonization because we know the traditional one a hundred uh plus years ago, where uh uh countries from the west came to Africa and other places and uh uh colonized them, you know, and uh brought the administration. I mean, Uganda was colonized by the British uh in those early days until we got independence in 1962. But now neocolonialism is uh uh what now uh the colonialism that has taken on a new face, a new face. It is still colonialism where uh those in the West or those who are behind neocolonialism are still trying to impose uh their will on the people. But this time it's not a governmental kind of will, but it is more of a sexual uh revolution, sexual dominance. Uh, yes, determining how people handle their sexuality. That's what it is uh today. And uh my my genesis with this actually goes a long way. Uh the first thing is that I felt a call uh from God to do something about family and morality in 1999. Uh, I was a businessman at that time, and uh somehow, you know, uh before that, prior to that, 10 years prior to that, God had led Beatrice, Beatrice is my wife, Beatrice and I to start the concept of marriage support groups uh in Uganda where married people would meet regularly and support one another and do life together uh as couples. We started that concept uh in the 1990s. So little did I know that that was preparing us for what we are doing today. So then in 1999, that's when I felt a call to do something about uh marriage, uh family and morality. But I was a businessman and I didn't know how uh that was going to work out until 2001. That's when I sense after I'd met you, because I'd met you uh Scott in 2000. Yes, you you you came to Ghana in 2000, that's when I met you. So actually, DNA also had uh had impact in the in my ministry, yes, it had impact direct impact my ministry. Because if I didn't meet you, and if I didn't meet the DNA message, then uh my impact would have just been limited to my church uh only, maybe in just the the married group alone, you know, just kept it there. But because in the year 2000 I got into contact with DNA, so when now uh 2001, the time to start it came, uh I was able now to start uh, and by the way, I tried to run my business and uh the ministry at the same time, it couldn't work out. I had to choose one. So reluctantly, but in obedience to God, I sold off my business interests, and that's when we started Family Life Network.

Scott Allen 19:31

That was a real step of faith for you, by the way, Stephen, because you were quite successful. I believe you were working for the Hilton Hotel system, uh, weren't you?

Speaker 19:39

Or before, yes, yeah, yeah, before when I was in in Kenya, but now I'd gone back to Uganda. So, yes, indeed. I mean, I could have, by the way, when I left uh the Hilton, my boss, my aid engineer told me, Steven, you want a job anywhere in the world, just tell us because I was of that caliber. Uh, I was an engineer of a world uh class uh uh caliber. Yeah, because I worked for that American company and which had branches around the world, and we were just as good engineers like anybody else, you know, in the other uh other parts of the world.

Scott Allen 20:20

That was a real turning point for you then, a real fork in the road to you know to turn away from that, you know, that absolutely to to full-time ministry. Yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry to interrupt you.

Recruitment Claims And Strategies

Speaker 20:32

It was, but indeed, I mean, I think that's it's not a light thing, but you are very, very right because uh it was a big step. It was a very big step. But anyway, I did that. We did that uh with Beatrice, and uh now when we started uh Family Life Network, we our work took us to schools, and uh when we went to schools initially we would meet little traces of uh homosexuality and uh uh lesbianism, nothing to write home about because any society has a few you know bad people here and there, not really large numbers to worry anyone. So initially it wasn't a very big deal. But as the 2000s progressed, 2004, 2005, 6, 7, 8, the cases kept on going so uh rising so much unfortunately I began to travel. I began to travel, and some of the times I would I I came to Phoenix and I'm and uh I met uh you know Darrow, Bob, and others. So whenever I would travel, I would take advantage of uh buying materials on this subject on homosexuality so that I could understand this subject. Uh properly. So I bought materials both for and against, and I really came to understand this movement and uh its strategies and other because I realized that this is something that is directly in the docket uh of the family, which God has called me on. So I I don't have the luxury, I didn't have the luxury of doing nothing about it. I needed to understand this thing properly so that I can, because I just knew we are going to have a confrontation at one time, time T. So I wanted to be equipped. So fortunately I got equipped, I got equipped, I got until 2008, when we had some uh uh by that time the gay movement in Uganda, uh the local gay had started uh taking action and making statements and beginning to ask for rights and so on. So one of the leaders of this group got born again. So when he got born again, he began to tell us what they have been doing. Yes, what they've been doing.

Scott Allen 23:19

Kind of pulled pull back the curtain a little bit and let you see on the other side.

Speaker 23:24

Right. Then we realized oh, so this is what has been fueling all these cases, because we realized there must be something driving this, but we didn't know what it was.

Scott Allen 23:34

Because you were seeing it kind of grow, kind of in a in a pretty rapid way. And I just want to remind our listeners, we saw the same thing here just recently in the West with transgenderism. The the cases of transgenderism just spiked. Um, now it's starting to decline, but it was uh what did they call it, Luke? It was kind of a social contagion. I mean, there was it wasn't, it wasn't like people, you know, had gender dysphoria. There was there was kind of a movement to foster it um that was successful. Um exactly.

Speaker 24:09

And this guy was trained, he was trained, and he said we are trained to always say that I was born this way, I was born this way, give me my rights. He was trained up to Nairobi uh uh about that. And then he told me when we write a proposal for funding, you must have recruitment in it. If you don't have recruitment, they're not going to look at your proposal. So that's when we realize that oh my gosh, these people are actually recruiting children. So what I decided was in 2009, I decided to do a public uh seminar, a three-day public seminar on homosexuality, just to provide more information to people so that people can have an idea of what's going on. So I prepared and I circulated the information on email and all that. So it went to the to the to the public.

Scott Allen 25:07

Was this for the open, just for the general public, or was this Christian leaders or okay?

The 2009 Seminar Goes Global

Speaker 25:12

General public, general public, schools, churches, the police, uh government, yeah. Everyone, everyone, yeah. So one month before the meeting, I began to get funny emails, funny calls. I got calls from South Africa telling me not to go ahead with it. I got calls from uh France telling me don't do that. Emails, and at that time I didn't know. I mean, what what what what what what wrong am I doing, you know, to to to go ahead with this? But anyway, I went ahead straight. I mean, and I continue going ahead. Little did I know that the global gay community or machinery had taken interest in this matter.

Scott Allen 26:06

Uh and explain why, Stephen. I mean, there's a there's there's a reason why they the global community was interested in Uganda. You didn't realize this, I'm sure, but all of a sudden you found yourself kind of right in the crosshairs because they had they had targeted Uganda, right? Uganda was significant for them.

Speaker 26:24

Absolutely, it was. And so 24 hours before the meeting started, about six pro-gay activists registered to come uh to attend the meeting. So we allowed them, you know, not because we you know we are open to anybody coming to land. So they came in. Now at that time, you know, we are not yet used to laptops and so on. As the meeting went on, I didn't realize that these guys had laptops, and the meeting was being live streamed to the global game machinery, and I didn't know this. So here I was thinking, oh, this is just a Ugandan meeting, and uh, you know, we're just helping Ugandans to get to know about this uh matter, the whole uh global game machinery was listening in. And uh on the second day, uh one of the newspapers brought an article, and somebody came and showed me and said, Look, it show it it had a heading that uh homosexuals stop a seminar. So it looks like they intended to come and disrupt the meeting, but they didn't because I had intercessors in there. I had intercessors in the meeting full-time praying uh in the meeting. Then at the end of the second day, uh a lady who works for the Human Rights Commission uh came to me at the end and said, These guys have a problem. He said, I've been here the whole day and I've heard what has been going on here, but the gay activists have sent me three emails that you are saying that they should be killed, that they should be hanged, that they should be here. But I haven't heard that at all.

Debunking The Death Penalty Narrative

Scott Allen 28:32

Talk about that because there was a narrative that was manufactured and it spread broadly, even to this day globally, that Uganda, the um the government was was trying to pass laws that would um it was called, you know, kill kill gays, right? You know, it was essentially, you know, I mean so that's the narrative that got spread. Uganda's trying to pass laws that would make it um uh, you know, a criminal offense to be gay, homosexual, and punishable by death. Um talk about the reality of that, Stephen, because that that's that was really effective at spread, and it still is in people's minds that there's this nefarious group of people in Uganda trying to literally kill homosexuals.

Speaker 29:22

That was a big exaggeration because at that time in our laws, there was what is called aggravated defilement. Aggravated defilement was a man who would defile a 12-year-old girl, uh 12-year-old girl, or the person um has HIV, you rape a girl and you have HIV, that is called uh aggravated uh rape. Um there's a third one. So if you committed those crimes, it's really serious crimes.

Scott Allen 30:00

We're talking about raping a young girl while you know you have HIV. That's right.

Speaker 30:07

Okay, yes, that's right. So the sentence was very, very uh severe, right? Yeah, it was actually uh death and all that. Now, all that this law was trying to do was to protect the boy child just as well as the girl child who is already protected in the current law. So it was just to really balance the equation, right? That was all. But once that was done, they just took the thing out of context and exaggerated and said, Oh, yeah, it's just the law to kill homosexuals, you know.

Scott Allen 30:44

There's a target on every homosexual person now in Uganda, they're gonna be tracked down and killed. Yeah, it was terrible, it was terrible, but it was, you know, uh from the standpoint of information warfare, it was effective, you know.

Speaker 30:57

Yes, yeah, yeah. So, anyway, so that's how uh this thing came to light. And then the thing that after I finished that 30-day uh seminar, which was very good, it helped bring information to the people. After about two weeks, I decided to have I called the parents so that uh uh I could brief the parents uh so that they can know how to protect the children and that kind of stuff. So, and we didn't want the media or anybody. It was a Sunday afternoon, so we had the meeting then towards the end of the meeting. One of my assistants uh stood up uh and said, There's something I've not consulted Mr. Langa, but I'm sure he wouldn't mind. We have somebody here who is a former gay who wants to tell you parents and warn you parents so that you can know better how to take your your your uh take care of your children. So I'm sure Mr. Langa wouldn't mind. Now, if he had asked me, I would have stopped it because I didn't want you know anything of that sort. But anyway, the gentleman came. This is the guy who was uh an activist in the gay community and now had come to North Alone. So he came and said that actually we have been busy recruiting in schools, and he says we will do whatever we can to get two students. We give them money and then we go away. When we come back, we find they have recruited others. They're now 11. You know, then there are so many. So this is what you're doing.

Scott Allen 32:42

Let me pause you there, Stephen. I just the you're talking about the mechanics of a movement that's really well planned with a lot of you know you're you're talking about the Ugandan face of it, you know, but it's backed up by networks and money from the West. Um, there's a real strategy behind it, incredible strategy. Um, Luke, I know when you were at Corbin, you know, something similar was happening in universities like Biola and Corbin, very similar strategy where this large movement would find a face or a spokesperson in the in the school. And all of a sudden, you know, there was this backing, a strategy to get the school to flip on that issue, right? And begin to support LGBTQ agenda. Um I mean, that's it, it's it's it's the same basic strategy we're seeing, I think, around the world, but it's it's not something organic. It's not just homosexual people, hey, you know, uh, you know, this is this is a a global strategy. Um, and again, this is the colonialism, right? This is where it's coming from. A lot of it is being driven by the West, right? By money and influence from the West. Yeah, continue, Steve.

Parents Mobilize And Petition Parliament

Speaker 33:59

Absolutely. Alan, I have put in my laps a seven-year-old girl who didn't even know how to speak English uh properly, uh, but is in school. This little seven-year-old girl was recruiting fellow students. And how she was found out was uh a certain Christian couple had uh uh their home near school and they had a garden, a maze garden. And one morning she was in the in the kitchen and had funny noises in the in the garden. And when she went to find, she found this seven-year-old girl sodomizing another girl. And of course, so the matter was you know, call and she was caught and so on and so forth. This girl says she was recruited into homosexuality, and she was trained how to recruit others, and you have to train the next person until they also recruit somebody, recruit somebody else. And this little seven-year-old girl who I carried in my lab had recruited 42 fellow children, and she would even go to church, and while at church in Sunday school, when the the the she would go to the to the toilet and get her victims in the toilet and initiate them in this. I've held that seven-year-old in my laps. That's how sick in this thing is. Yeah, so anyway, so you know, back to the to the parents. So uh this gentleman come comes and says what he said. It was a Sunday afternoon, so we went the following day. I received a call from the the editor of uh the biggest newspaper. So, oh Ms. Alanga, yeah, you had a meeting yesterday. I said, Yes, I had a meeting. They said, Oh, you had this guy there. I said yes. What I want to know from you is is he genuine or is he fake? I said it's genuine. Then she said, Good. Tomorrow is going to be the headline. It's gonna be the headline. So I'm just letting you know so that you are aware because maybe the government might take interest in this case, but I'm just alerting you, tomorrow is going to be the headline. So that was Monday, so Tuesday, headline homosexuals recruit children in schools, and the thing hit the nation, and the nation was by 10 a.m. There was no single newspaper available, sold out, sold out countrywide, and the country was enraged. Yeah.

Scott Allen 37:01

And let me just pause. You're this is I think it's significant that you're saying that when you started spreading the word in Uganda, you weren't doing this exclusively in the church, you were doing this to the general public. And so this is again, this is not just Christians in Uganda that are upset about this. This is the Ugandan people, by and large, right?

Speaker 37:23

Christian or not. Absolutely. Absolutely. So they were enraged by 10 o'clock. There's no more newspaper, the country was enraged. How can these guys do this? Then uh I got an idea uh to give direction to the nation. So that was Tuesday. So by Tuesday evening, I announced that tomorrow, Wednesday, I'm going to organize a press conference of parents. Parents come, we are we have to make a press conference. So indeed, so that evening I mobilized the press, and the following day, uh uh I managed to get a room in a hotel, and I mobilized parents as well. And parents came in large numbers. They were full there, and the press came in large numbers. So we gave we spoke to the nation. We said, as parents, we are we are extremely concerned about the state of affairs. We are calling on the government to protect our children because this is your responsibility. How can our children be how can our children be recruited in this kind of situation? And then we said we are giving ourselves a month to take a petition to the uh to the parliament, and we are copying the president, and we are mobilizing signatures countrywide. So the Hawker parents, wherever you ask, append your signature so that we collect the signature and take to our parliamentarians and the government that we want protection for our children. So that was the genesis of that anti-homosexuality bill. That's where it came from. From the anger that uh the parents and the society had when they saw what these people are doing to our children. And I guess as they say, the rest is history. Yeah.

Scott Allen 39:47

I mean, you you call it anti-homosexuality. I think, you know, as I listen to you, Stephen, it's really not anti, it's pro, it's really protecting uh, you know, marriage and family as it's been understood, not just again by Christians biblically, but by the society as a whole. This is a kind of a common grace. And um, you know, I think of John Stone Street, our friend at uh Breakpoint, and he often says, if you want to change society, if you want to disciple nations as a church, as Christians, um, pursue, you know, seek God, pray and seek God and ask God, you know, what good, what is good that I want to protect, that I want to ensure if it's under threat, I want to ensure that it survives. Um, what is what evil can I no longer tolerate and I will fight against it? You ask these kind of questions and then you engage based on the calling that God gives you. And Steve, that's what I hear you doing, right? You the issue here is marriage, family, the beauty of it that God created. You're protecting it, um, not just in the church, but for the nation as a whole, uh, all the way up to the highest levels of government, and at the same time, fighting an evil, right? Um, this is uh we're not just talking about having compassion on people that are confused about their gender or sexuality. They deserve compassion. We're talking about an organized strategy to recruit and to to uh it's a it's a it's kind of a missionary type of approach to to evangelize on behalf of something that would will destroy the family.

Speaker 41:29

And so you That's right, and I usually say that yes, and I usually say that there are two kinds of homosexuals. There are homosexuals who are struggling with uh with homosexuality, just like thieves who are struggling with stealing, uh murderers who are struggling with murderers, but are not trying to promote it, uh but you know, are just struggling. Yes. That one we approach with grace, with compassion, and so on. But there's the other one who is an activist, right? Who is trying to get to rights, who is trying to promote that one needs to be posed.

Scott Allen 42:08

Yeah, no, it's really important. Darrow, when he um talks, sometimes he says it's important to make a distinction between the drug addict and the drug dealer. Uh there's you have to treat them differently. Um and that's what I hear you saying as well. Luke, what questions do you have, or what uh I'd like to bring you into the discussion a little bit too, Persina?

Biblical Worldview Versus Dualism

Luke Allen 42:32

Uh I mean, it I just find it interesting because here in the West, we've gotten so accustomed to this new world that was not it's new throughout pretty much all of history where homosexual homosexuality is normalized. It's in just the zeitgeist of the Western culture at this point. And yet in places like Uganda, it's not that way yet. So you could appeal to the common man, to the the broader public, and say, we all agree on this, and you all did agree on it. And uh I guess my my two questions are one, why did you all agree that we should, you know, keep homosexuality out of our schools, out of our policies? Why do you think you all could agree on that? And then two, was the the backlash to it more because of its um uh more because of its um moral uh ethical issues, or more because it's being imposed by the West and Africa at this point has become very averse to colonialism and very sensitive to that, rightfully so. Do you do you do you have an idea of which one it was?

Speaker 43:42

Okay, those are very good questions. Uh the first thing is that uh for us, the reason we saw that this is not right, uh is uh understanding biblical worldview. Uh when you understand Biblical worldview, it's easier to know what is right and what is wrong. And uh we came we came to understand uh through the DNA uh training and all that that um God has intentions, God has intentions in every sphere of society or in every sphere of our national existence. In others, God has standards for what marriage should look like, what family should look like, what governance should look like, what education should look like, you know, and all those kinds of things. So when you come to understand God's position and God's way on those matters, then that is what you need to follow. In other words, that is what is right.

Scott Allen 45:04

Um Stephen, if I could pause you there, just really quickly, I'd hold your thought. I don't want to uh have you lose your thought, but uh the missionaries that came to Uganda and really a lot of Africa, you know, uh really wonderful and courageous people, but they didn't necessarily bring that comprehensive biblical worldview. They brought a message of spiritual salvation through faith in Christ. And a lot of Africans accepted that, but they didn't understand the whole kind of big picture of the Bible. That's what you're talking about, right?

Speaker 45:38

Scott, you are spot on. And uh in your own city, Scott, I was there in 2004. We were together with uh Dennis Tongoy, you know him from Kenya.

Scott Allen 45:52

Yeah, one of the Samaritan Strategy Africa leaders from Kenya, yes.

Speaker 45:56

That's right. And we went very early in the morning to meet uh a brother, a businessman who was uh uh one of the leaders in Phoenix uh with Bob Moffitt. So Bob Moffitt went in to see this gentleman first. So uh Dennis and I waited in the in the waiting room. While we were there, an old missionary, a white brother, came and uh we struck a conversation. And uh in the middle of our conversation, he made a statement which I'll never forget. He said, You know, we missionaries from the West have to come to Africa and apologize to you guys because the gospel we brought to Africa did not have the right worldview. I had that from your city, Scott, from a white brother in the Lord. Yes, so we received uh uh the kind of gospel which is dualistic, which separates the spiritual and the secular, and that's why I told you at the beginning that if I did not encounter DNA, I would just have remained a dualistic Christian and just say, Well, you know, uh that's the world for us, let's just men on spiritual things, but for me, I see things holistically right now. As we are talking, we are in the middle of a big battle. There's a a marriage bill that was introduced last year, which I mean, God have mercy. In this marriage bill, it is said it can be potential, any any monogamous marriage, like a Christian marriage, can potentially be polygamous. Meaning that I can get tired one day of beaters, and I think maybe I should get another woman, and I can come and add another woman, and the law should be somebody has brought such a law. We've been fighting that I've been fighting even now. Actually, we should finish our meeting quickly because I still have to prepare documentation because this is coming into parliament tomorrow. Yeah, tomorrow, and we I have to prepare a document for parliamentarians to guide them uh to see the evil in this, and actually, what we want is to have that thing thrown out. If I didn't understand the biblical worldview, I mean such laws will just come and pass. But we are we are but we are putting up a fight, and there are others as well, yeah. But we're putting up a fight because of understanding that God is the God of all of society, not just the spiritual side. He's the God of science, he's a god of reasoning, he's a god of politics, he's a god of mathematics, he's a god of engineering, and that's the holistic understanding that we need to have. And so we are supposed to advance God's way of doing it, because God's way is best, his laws are best. Any man-made laws will always bring brokenness, will always bring enslavement, will always take society to the ditch, whether you like it or not, whether it is sugar coated, whether it is the UN saying it, whether it is the World Bank, it doesn't matter. It will take society to the ditch. Now I've come to understand all these things over the years. So that's why I'm very bold because I know the other side cannot challenge. Cannot challenge. Yes, and studies, if they're really genuine studies and worth the paper they've written on, they will always confirm what the Bible says. Always. Yes, always. So because of that, and because I've understood that I'm bold, I can challenge anyone, and uh yes, and fearless, as I said before.

Scott Allen 50:13

And yeah, I think it's important too to just underscore the fact that you're working at the highest levels of government in Uganda, Stephen, and you've been working for quite a while. Um that you know, that's a calling not every Christian has, but you are working with parliament, you're working with yeah, very high levels of government and government legislation. Just give us a little window into what I you got this particular law, but you and you've fought, you you have been fighting for biblical, you know, or true kind of marriage policy for a long time. What victories have you had in that area there, Steve?

Legislative Wins And NGO Pressure

Speaker 50:53

We have managed to pass the anti-pornography law. Uh, there was a time when there was a lot of pornography, and you know, newspapers were just uh uh uh you know splashing uh pornography around. We took took us about 10 years to come up with the anti-pornography law, so it's there. Um people have been arrested uh uh with with that. Then we've we have also managed to uh safeguard our children. There was a law that uh I believe the pro-gay uh people had wanted to have passed. It was a children's law. In with that law, somebody could come from the US, flying from the US on a Sunday, will arrive in Uganda, will find on Monday a child has been prepared for one of the orphanages. A government uh document that says that this kid can be taken away has been stamped. A lawyer has already approved it, a judge has already approved it, and on Wednesday you can fly out of the country with a Ugandan child. Nobody will ever know anything, no follow-up. You could just go and slaughter that child, and nobody, no follow-up, nothing such a law had come into Uganda. So I realized this law is coming taking away our children. So we fought that law, and thank God that uh those provisions that would make that uh possible were cancelled. So now Ugandan children are protected. Wow, praise God and Scott's shame. Um I'm sorry to say, but shame on your country. Do you know that an official came from all the way from Washington to come and ensure that that law is passed? But we are able to resist it, were able to completely uh uh make their presence, the presence of that official, uh null and void. But that's how your country, yes, how your country has really been uh the extent they have gone in trying to really uh promote their agenda. And by the way, for your information, uh uh there's uh somebody who has done some research and found out that Uganda has the largest number of pro-gay um NGOs functioning in Uganda more than any other country in Africa. Yes, more than any other country because they know that we are fighting this, and so they've poured all the money, all the influence they they they they can imagine to try and bring Uganda to a knees. But I want to say that so far God has helped us. I mean, we are fighting billions of dollars, and thanks to Trump, thanks to President Trump, who really just helped to defund USAID because USAID had poured in a lot of money. Yes. Then another another victory.

A Challenge To American Christians

Scott Allen 54:29

And it was, you know, yeah, USAID was really behind this agenda, and you know, not just in Uganda, but around the world. People don't realize that. They assume that USAID is just helping uh alleviate poverty, and of course, that's what they talk about. Not that they haven't done work in that way, but their agenda has been a lot bigger than that, a lot more nefarious. What um, Steve, uh, we I do want to wrap up here because I know you've got important work to do, but I just want to explore this a little bit with you. I was in uh Bogota, Colombia several years ago. Very similar things were happening. Um, the United Nations State Department NGOs from the West, from the United States largely, were bringing in uh pro-gay materials into the public schools um uh curriculum. Um pastors that I were down, I was teaching down there, you know, they had uh it was very quiet. It wasn't it wasn't done publicly or with a lot of fanfare very quietly, working with um the LGBTQ movement in Colombia. Um and but but pastors and church leaders got a hold of the curriculum that they were going to teach, the explicit nature of it. It was really vile. Um they were outraged, and um, I'll never forget, you know, because I was down there doing training, DNA training with pastors, and they said, Scott, this is coming from your own country. We appreciate you coming here to you to Colombia to help us, but what are you doing at home? And it was a question that still haunts me. So, Steve, what would you say to American Christians? Uh what, because uh so much of this has, you know, I do feel a kind of sense of complicity in this as an American, as a Christian in America. What would you say to people like me that are listening to us today?

Speaker 56:21

Well, I think uh the Christians in the West are dualistic. I'm sorry to say, but I think they're dualistic.

Scott Allen 56:29

Um explain that again for people that may not know what you're talking about.

Speaker 56:33

The Christians in the West separate uh the spiritual and the secular, and they have chosen to focus only on the spiritual uh aspects of life and have totally divorced themselves from the what they call the secular or the things that affect the nation.

Scott Allen 56:58

So you hear that a lot, even to this day. You know, we should just preach the Bible in churches, don't get involved in politics. That's kind of this dirty secular world. We, you know, we that's you know, that's outside of our realm of of you know, of of work or of focus as as Christians, you still hear that a lot. Yeah, you're right. And and politics is not the only one, but you know, it's like you say, everything else, business, economics. I mean, we can certainly work in those areas, but uh, but the Bible doesn't really have anything to say about those things, right? Yeah.

Speaker 57:35

You see, Scott, if I didn't get into contact with people of world, I would just be the same as everyone. I would just look at you know, uh things and just focus only on the spiritual. But for me, I have come to understand our Lord's Prayer, our Father, who are in it, our Lord beyond it. Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Scott, I've come to realize that Christianity is not a religion. It's not a religion. We devalue Christianity when we equate it to a religion because a religion is just a social club, a social you know, club of people who are like-minded, people who have similar uh burden and similar uh interests. But Christianity is not a religion, Christianity is a government, is a government, and Scott, that's why people ask why I'm bored and all that because I realize I'm working for government, and I usually tell people you fall around with an American citizen and you will see. You know, America is very, very protective of their citizens, you know. They would turn a whole uh aircraft carrier to go and save one one one person because they treasure their their their so the uh citizens now. Scott, what has helped me is to come to the realization that Christianity is a government, it's a heavenly government, and every government has procedures. How you get your passport, how you get your next sport license, how you get this. Those are the keys that Jesus said, I'll give you the keys of the kingdom so that we can access heavenly governmental authority to conduct uh heav uh uh the king the the interests of the kingdom of God here. In other words, the kingdom of God.

Scott Allen 59:53

It reminds me of that famous passage in Isaiah Stephen we quote often at Christmas time about uh Christ's coming, and it talks about government, of the increase of his government and of peace. There will be no end. Yes, it uses that word government there. I wish I had the reference. Yeah.

Speaker 1:00:12

Absolutely. No, it is Isaiah chapter uh nine, verse six and seven. Thank you. Yeah, yes. So for me, that that's how I function. When I'm going to parliament, I don't just go to beg and I got there representing the government. That's what Jesus said in Matthew 6:33, seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness. I mean, neither seek first the interest of the of the government of heaven and how it functions and how it handles its affairs. That's what we need to understand. And once you understand that, Scott, there's no, there's nothing on earth because Jesus said all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. That's the government authority that we are giving you.

Kingdom Government And Religious Liberty

Scott Allen 1:01:01

Steve, I know people, this is very controversial for a lot of people in the West. And now there's a label, Christian nationalism, that's describing people that talk like you. Um, and and and the the label essentially it means that you're a Christian Taliban. You you are trying to impose biblical law on people in the same way that Muslims are trying to impose Sharia law on people. There's no difference. Talk about how that is a misunderstanding of what we're you're talking about. Are you just a Christian Taliban trying to impose biblical law on people?

Speaker 1:01:35

First of all, the biggest difference between Taliban and Christianity is that only one worldview is compatible with reality. Only one worldview. Yes. Any other worldview, and I challenge any other worldview. Let's bring any other worldview and let's test it against reality. Take, for example, what a human being is. Let's hear what the Muslims say what a human being is. Let's hear what the Mormons are saying what a human being is, let's hear what the Africans are saying what a human being is.

Scott Allen 1:02:09

There's only one truth, is what you're talking about. You know, there's absolutely there's not your truth or my truth. There is there is a truth. You know, the question is which which claim is is true exactly, right? Absolutely.

Speaker 1:02:22

And the the the way I challenge all these other ones is any other worldview will be will be harmful in society. Any other worldview who will harm will either harm the individual or harm society or both. Or both. Yes.

Scott Allen 1:02:44

And if I and if I could add, the tactics are completely different. So we're not trying to force at point of gun anyone to believe the Bible. It's always uh done with humility, respect, respect for people's choice. Um, but we're certainly going to advocate for the truth as we understand that truth because, like you say, it's good. But I just think again, people always are like, oh, you're dangerous. This is dangerous, you know. So the way you're talking, Stephen.

Speaker 1:03:14

Scott, I need to bring uh some clarity here. Yeah, the Ten Commandments has two sets of uh commandments or can be split into two. The first four govern our personal relationship with God, those ones God has not delegated to anyone or to any government to enforce, meaning that as a Christian, if I was a president, I cannot force a Muslim not to go to the mosque. No, yeah. If they feel they really feel that that's what uh will bring them to God, let them do it. That one God will personally uh hold people accountable for their personal relationship. That's why God says in Deuteronomy chapter 30, verse 15 I place before you today life and death. So God places if you think that that tree will be your God and will solve your problems, God will not stop you. He can, but he won't. That's why he gives his sunshine to all, he gives his oxygen to all.

Scott Allen 1:04:27

In other words, there's freedom, there's there's a principle of freedom in Christianity that doesn't exist in other religions, right?

Speaker 1:04:33

Absolutely.

Scott Allen 1:04:35

There is a reason that Christian countries respect religious liberty in a way that you don't see in Islamic countries, right?

Speaker 1:04:42

Absolutely. Then now, when it comes to the other six uh six laws which uh which govern man-to-man uh behavior or conduct now, those ones God has established moral laws now. To understand moral laws, you need to understand natural laws, laws of nature, laws of physics, gravity, and so on. God has established natural laws to govern the physical universe, but He has made moral laws to govern man-to-man behavior. Now, the only difference between moral laws and uh and natural laws is that natural laws will function whether you believe it or not, you have no choice. Gravity will work whether you you you you you agree or not, but moral laws we have the choice to either obey it or violate it. But God has shown what is right how to treat your neighbor, how to treat your wife, how to treat your husband and so on. Now, only Christian biblical moral laws were. Work. Anything else will not will drive society to a ditch. And so with that, I can challenge anyone. Like now, I'm taking these things to parliament. I will show them how all these uh ways that they want to uh to to to to to to pass those laws or those provisions will lead the country to a ditch. So it is challengeable, it's challengeable.

Scott Allen 1:06:24

Yeah. That's really good, Stephen. You're not you're not saying we've got to do this because God said, I mean, you could you could do that, but you're saying you're trying to make the case that if we do this, it's gonna have negative consequences and we can show that absolutely, and beyond that uh score, Romans chapter 13, verse 1 to 7.

Speaker 1:06:46

God delegates his authority to governments. Okay, governments don't function with their own power, they're it is God delegating his power.

Scott Allen 1:07:00

Right, all authority comes from God. That's right. That's what Jesus said to Pontius Pilate. You would have no authority if it wasn't given from me.

Speaker 1:07:08

Absolutely, absolutely, and to to bring to to uh to conclusion this debate, I wish somebody could get us uh uh Timothy chapter 1, verse 1 and 8 to 10. No, Timothy chapter 1, verse 8 to 10. That will help us conclude this whole thing of uh nationalism and what have you. I don't know if if Luke can get it for us, uh but first Timothy, yeah. Chapter 1, verse 8 to 10.

Speaker 4 1:07:48

Okay, got it.

Luke Allen 1:07:51

We know that law is good. If one uses it properly, we also know that law is made not for the righteous, but for the lawbreaker and rebels, the unlaw and the ungodly and the sinful, the unholy and the irreligious. If those who kill their father or mother for excuse me, for those who kill their father or mother for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers, and for whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine. Keep going.

Scripture On Law And Final Words

Speaker 1:08:29

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, no, I think that's it. Yeah, so there you are, Scott. Your country was established on laws that are compatible with Gozar. Will thieves make laws for themselves? Will homosexuals make laws for themselves? You see, we as Christians have been slipping we are sleeping on the wheel. Yes, we have let society down. We are the ones who should actually help bring these laws about because when you read Deuteronomy chapter 4, verse 5 to 8, you will find that God's laws are the purest. Moses tells the children of you that you know, uh do these things and follow them. Then the other nations will look and say, Wow, look at what are wise. Which other nation has such a credible uh uh uh set of laws? Yeah, you see, so it is God's law that that makes nations great. It is not the size of the army, it's not the size of the economy, it is God's laws that are fair, that are fair, that are truly just, where all people are equal before the law. Any man-made laws will have the will have the the flaws of human beings, will be embedded with our own brokenness, our own uh sinfulness will be embedded in our laws, and they'll be oppressive. It's only God's law that really brings real liberty.

Scott Allen 1:10:06

Um Stephen, your words are so powerful because they're not they're backed up by action. I mean, you're you're you're not just preaching this, teaching this, you're living it, you're living it out in very practical ways in Uganda. And um, it's very inspiring to me. It's such an honor to know you, Stephen. And I just want to I want to thank you. That's a it's a message for uh thus Christians in the West in particular. We need to take this to heart. Um, and uh I just thank you for the example that you're providing for us, Steve. So Lucas, we wrap up any final questions or or uh words from you.

Closing Blessing And Goodbye

Luke Allen 1:10:42

I just want to say amen to everything you've been saying, Stephen. I um I really appreciate this time. I I your arguments sound they're so solid. You know, God's laws work with reality, truth comports with reality, and that's what we're standing on. And the amount of confidence that can give us, not in ourselves, but in God, who has so generously revealed himself to us, we're standing on firm ground, solid ground, and we can take those arguments to the bank any day. And that just gives me so much confidence. And uh I love I love hearing it from you and that you're actually putting this into practice in your in your letter to Parliament, your writing letters today. It's great. So yeah, thank you so much for your time. Thank you.

Scott Allen 1:11:29

Thank you, Steve. God bless you, and uh, we look forward to having you back on the podcast again. You have so much to teach us. Uh not uh again, it's been just enriching to have us go in go into the scriptures and and uh you're you're an example of someone who's truly discipling a nation. And uh so I give you thanks for that. And many nations, actually, not just one. So God bless you, Stephen, and uh give our greetings to your wife Beatrice. God bless you.

Speaker 1:11:54

Thank you. It's been an honor being with you. All right. Bye.