Ideas Have Consequences
Worldviews shape communities, influence politics, steer economics, set social norms, and ultimately affect the well-being of both your life and your nation. Obedience to the Great Commission involves replacing false ideas with biblical truth. Together with the help of friends, our mission is to demonstrate that only biblical truth leads to flourishing lives, families, societies, and nations. This show explores the intersection of faith and culture, aiming to address pressing societal issues through a biblical lens. Ideas Have Consequences is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance.
Ideas Have Consequences
Made to Live: The Good News of the Kingdom of God | Dwight Vogt
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Episode Summary:
Jesus talked about the Kingdom of God continually. In contrast to “church,” which is only mentioned twice, “kingdom” is mentioned over 120 times in the gospels. So why do we treat the Kingdom like it barely matters?
In this episode, we sit down with our former co-host, Dwight Vogt, to discuss his newest book, Made to Live: The Good News of the Kingdom of God. Starting in Genesis 1, Dwight shows how the Kingdom is the unifying thread of Scripture and the key to understanding both the gospel and human purpose.
We explore a simple framework for a kingdom which includes a king, realm, subjects, and the king’s will, and wrestle with big questions: If Jesus has all authority, why does evil still persist? What does “my kingdom is not of this world” really mean? And what does it look like to live under Christ’s reign today?
From work and leadership to family and justice, this conversation shows how God’s Kingdom touches every part of life. If your faith has ever felt disconnected from the real world, this episode will equip you with clarity and a passion for life.
Who is Disciple Nations Alliance (DNA)? Since 1997, DNA’s mission has been to equip followers of Jesus around the globe with a biblical worldview, empowering them to build flourishing families, communities, and nations. 👉 https://disciplenations.org/
🎙️Featured Speaker:
Dwight Vogt is a lifelong student of the Bible and of the biblical worldview. His writing is driven by a desire to make accessible and relevant profound biblical truths about our place and purpose in God's world.
In addition to Made to Live, Dwight has written Made to Flourish: God’s Design for All Individuals, Communities, and Nations, and Footings for Children: Imparting a Biblical Worldview So They Can Thrive.
His writing is characterized by clarity, wisdom, and a passion to see others grow in practical understanding.
Dwight served for 30 years in international relief and development work and 14 years with Disciple Nations Alliance. He and his wife, Deborah, live in Phoenix, Arizona.
📌 Recommended Links
👉 MADETOLIVEBOOK.COM Get your copy of the book TODAY (available in print and audiobook)
👉 Course: Living the Kingdom Life by Arturo Cuba
👉 Video on the two kingdoms: God’s Plan to Transform the World and How You Fit In
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You Need to Understand the Kingdom
Luke AllenYep, but just make sure to unmute yourself when you're ready to talk. Okay, sorry. Like that. Yep.
Speaker 4Alright. Okay.
Luke AllenAll right. We're ready to go. Let's do it.
Scott AllenOkay, great. All right. Let's do it. Okay, let me uh you're just getting a little bit organized here. All right. Well, we're excited today to have uh back on the podcast our dear friend and fellow podcaster of many years, uh Dwight Vogt. Dwight, thanks for joining us again today. It's great to have you back.
SpeakerThanks for having me.
Scott AllenI wish you were on all the time, but uh I understand at some point retirement happens. And uh that happened for you last year, and uh we miss you. Um Dwight Dwight was uh on our team for many years. Um he worked for 14 years with the DNA and uh was the um was the vice president of operations and actually Dwight we have your um your very capable replacement on as well today. Nelson's great to have you on and Luke as well.
Nelson MonteiroSo yes, and emphasis on no on the we miss you.
Scott AllenAnyways, yeah, it's but it's it's been it's great to have both of you guys on, actually. This is exciting. Great, great to to be with you guys both today. And we're gonna uh talk today of a really exciting topic. We're gonna talk about Dwight's brand new book that is now live and available for purchase on Amazon as well as Barnes and Noble and other places you get books. It's called Um Made to Live The Good News of the Kingdom of God. Um and you can learn more about it at the website made to livebook.com. I want to encourage everyone to go over there, read about it, uh, buy it, and benefit from it. Uh this is a uh really exciting Dwight for you to get this book out. Um just a little bit uh for people that are new to the podcast and don't know Dwight, let me just introduce a little bit more. Dwight's uh, as I mentioned, served for more than 14 years with the DNA, um, but prior to that served for many years with Food for the Hungry International in leadership positions in that Christian relief and development organization in many different countries, including uh Peru and Bangladesh, uh worked in Thailand, has traveled all over the world very extensively, um uh studied at Biola, got his uh MDiv, no, no, excuse me, not with what what what was your final degree there at Biola, Dwight?
Dwight VogtIt was an intercultural studies master's master's in intercultural studies.
Scott AllenYep. Uh back at in the and really was one of the first folks to go out with food for the hungry back when we started our uh where we uh when they started the volunteer sending program um and was really a pioneer in that. So Dwight's had an amazing career in Christian relief and development and in biblical worldview studies and training. And um, Dwight, feel free to share more of your background. Dwight's married and um he's got a fantastic wife, Deborah, and uh three wonderful children and grandchildren now, and so um it's uh it's a great, great time for Dwight. Um so but let's get into the book, Dwight. Um this is a subject, the kingdom of God, that you have been passionate about, really, and I've seen that firsthand, just your passion for this subject. And I guess a couple of questions to kick us off. One is wh where did that come from, that passion for this particular subject? Um and uh just as a follow-up to that question, w what what are you sharing here in this book, um Made to Live, The Good News of the Kingdom of God? What are you sharing here that you think adds to other books um and studies that have been written on this subject?
Introducing the New Book
Scott AllenWhat what what are you what's your unique contribution, Dwight, do you think in this book?
Dwight VogtWell I'm gonna I'm gonna answer your second question first. Sure. Um that I I yeah, what what am I trying to share that I think is new? I I'm not sure. Um what I'm doing is I'm sharing my thoughts. In fact, I say this. I say, hey, here are my thoughts. In fact, I'm writing to understand my thoughts. So here they are, and I'd like you to listen to them and think with me. And if something strikes you as new, well, that's great. If it doesn't, you know, I'm sorry I wasted your time, basically. But my hope is that people will read it and go, wow, I haven't thought it quite like that before, but I think that might be right. Or it's worth thinking about, it's worth mulling over. So I'm hoping just to spur people's thinking on a wide range of thoughts regarding the kingdom of God. Um so anyway, that's my hope.
Scott AllenTalk talk about your you know your your own interest in the subject of the kingdom, Dwight. I know for me, you know, I grew up in a you know, uh an evangelical church, grew up. I I I became a Christian in high school, but for many years when I would attend church, it was just not a subject that was talked about. Um there weren't sermons on it, and I consequently didn't know much about it. I I kind of learned through osmosis that what the church that I was attending or churches that I was attending believed about that subject was that it wasn't relevant until Jesus returns in the future. And so consequently, you know, if it's not relevant until he comes back and establishes his kingdom, then what's the point, right, in talking about it now? There's really no point. And I remember when that idea was first
The Question That Sparked The Book
Scott Allenchallenged for me, you know, when I was at Food for the Hungry, and I don't remember exactly where. I think it might have been Randy Hogue, and we read that book um The Unshakable East Anley Jones book. Yeah.
Dwight VogtGo ahead. I'll jump in here because yeah, that's that's you're you're that's my experience as well. I uh I I I took a class in college on the kingdom of God, and I remember the book was named the Kingdom of God by John Bright. I've got on my shelf here. But otherwise, the first time I really thought about the kingdom that I can remember was with you, Scott, when we were with Food for the Hungry, and Randy Hogue challenged us to think of Food for the Hungry, which is a real Christian relief and development organization, as a kingdom organization. What would it be like if we were a kingdom organization instead of a, you know, he put on one side of the chart, well, you're a missionary organization, or you're a Christian organization that does relief and development work. But what if we're a kingdom organization? And I thought, what would that be like? What would it look like? What's the difference? Yeah. Because I'd grown up with missionary hospitals, I'd grown up with Christian businesses. What does a kingdom business look like versus a Christian business? What is a missionary hospital look like versus a kingdom hospital? I was like, what a question. So, and then he then, of course, he gave us East Anley Jones's book, The Unshakable Kingdom and the Unchanging Person. And that kind of rocked my brain if you've ever read East Anley. That's a great little book. I recommend it to anybody. Um, and he basically said, you know, we have an anemic view as the church of the kingdom of God. Uh he challenged us saying, one, we see it as a place for eternal security. I won't go to hell, I'll I'll go to heaven, I'll go to the kingdom. Um, we see it as reward. When I die, I get to experience the kingdom. We see it as something that comes at the second coming, and we see it as an ideal, something to look forward to. And he basically said, he challenged and said, that's an anemic view of the kingdom. And I thought, how can you say that? You know, but he did. And he said, the kingdom is totally comprehensive. It's God's total program for man's total need, and it's what we should offer the world. So that got me thinking, what is the kingdom? You know, and he and he really didn't answer the question. So it was those two questions, one Randy's question, and then the book. And then later on I read Creation Regained with Albert Walter, and there the question was, he he says, Albert Walter wrote and said, you know, the the kingdom, God's redemptive plan is is comprehensive. It includes all of creation, includes all of life. Then my question is, well, is this the kingdom? Is it just to have a comprehensive view of redemption? Is that the kingdom? Uh so that was another question. So it was just a series of questions that that came up that I and I wanted to know what is I wanted to be clear in my own mind on what is the kingdom. Because we use the word a lot. Increasingly, we were hearing it in the church, you have we're advancing the kingdom, we're we're we do kingdom business, we uh we want to glorify God and show his kingdom. But what is the kingdom? So anyway, we use it a lot, the word, but I wanted to understand what it meant. So that's we've gotten it going.
Speaker 4Dwight, another thing that I like when we you talk about comprehensive, uh, you also say that this this theme of the kingdom of God, you say something like the kingdom of God is the unifying theme of the biblical narrative. And for me it it's good because it goes back to scriptures. Uh-huh. And and I I come from uh from the global south and theological education, missionaries who went and to do theological education. Of course, systematic theology is a contextualized way of doing theology, systematic. So we divide in blocks and we study all the different aspects that to find in scriptures about God, men, and but then now you come and you say that the kingdom of God is the unifying theme of scriptures. And I like
The Kingdom As Bible’s Center
Speaker 4that. So so how how do you how do you look at that and when you think about systematic theology and um and what we have done in our uh in our Bible schools and seminaries in many ways that this this how do uh the key for me the is the integration. How what are your thoughts about that?
SpeakerI actually was was I got that thought from that book college class with John Bright when he wrote the book, The Kingdom of God. And I've got a quote here I want to read because um he writes this at the beginning of the book, I think. Old Testament and New Testament stand together as the two acts of a single drama. It's one book. Had we to give the Bible, the book, the Bible, a title, we might with justice call it the book of the coming of the kingdom of God. That is indeed its central theme everywhere. In the New Testament, the kingdom is actually at hand. So I thought, well, if that's the theme of the Bible, and it it it says it made sense. If if Jesus was all about the kingdom, talked about the kingdom everywhere he went, uh, that this theologian that knew more than me said it was the theme of the Bible, which rightly could be called that. I thought I need to understand how that works. How is it that the kingdom of God starts in Genesis one and one and ends in Revelation 22?
Speaker 2Yeah.
Luke AllenDo I do this? Um go ahead, yeah. Yeah, you once said Dwight, and I love this, is we talk about biblical worldview all the time. And it's a great phrase and it it makes a lot of sense, but we should really call it the worldview of the kingdom. Is like because the Bible is the story of the kingdom. So we should call it the the way we're seeing the world is a view of the kingdom, if we have a biblical worldview. And that worldview is the view of reality. So if you're seeing the kingdom and everything, then you're seeing the world the way we're supposed to actually see it. And that I that just really pointed to the importance of understanding this concept. You also um you you someone, I don't know if it was you, but went through and counted every time and talks about the kingdom in the New Testament. It's over a hundred times, isn't it? Is it in the gospels alone?
SpeakerOh, in the gospels alone, Jesus uses the kingdom like I I've it's in the book 180 times, something like that. It's it's a it's a lot of things.
Scott AllenHe uses the word church like three or three times, you know. Right. It's kind of shocking because especially for somebody with your background and my background, Dwight, it's kind of like, wow, he he really emphasized this idea of the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven so much. You know, is it truly not relevant for now, only in the future?
SpeakerYou know I I this I don't really address this in the book, but the other one is that the in the King James, it's the God Jesus is proclaims the gospel of the kingdom. Often at times the gospel of the kingdom. Well, that's the word for good news, but he uses the word gospel in King James, which we in the evangelical church use the word gospel for the atonement, the death, and resurrection of Christ.
Scott AllenRight.
SpeakerThat becomes the gospel. So now I'm going, wow, he emphasized this gospel and Paul emphasized this gospel. Are there two different gospels? And this what's so that was another question that came up. You know, I'm like, does anybody make sense of all this? That was my question for you know, and I thought, well, it needs to make sense in my little brain. That's all. If I'm gonna understand my under my God and his plan for my life, it needs to make sense between my ears.
Scott AllenAnd so I love the way Dwight said that I love the way you said I wrote the book because I uh you know, almost for myself, like I really had these questions. And and you're correct, at least from my experience, Dwight, that when you write, um it helps you think clearly.
SpeakerYeah, it helps you think clearly.
Scott AllenExactly. Exactly. So some people always say, you know, hey, are you writing this book for that audience or this audience, or what you know, what are you trying to accomplish with this book? I'm like, well, I'm just writing it so I can understand this better. You know, it's kind of for me. Exactly. And then, you know, but you know, it may be helpful for others. But that being said, Dwight, you know, there's more to it than that for you. I know, you know, it's not just academic or kind of like, I just want to kind of sort out some answers here to questions in my head. This became I saw you, you this became something quite personal for you. Like it was it became a passion. Like uh this is this is deeply important. So talk a little bit about that. What why did it become so important to you? It wasn't like, oh, I got the answer checked, now I'll go on to the next subject. This has really become a really important thing for you, Dwight.
SpeakerI think I think the my response to that is that because I was working with you and Daryl, some light bulbs started coming on. And it was those little lights blinking on that I went, wait, there might be something here. This this this is this is about the kingdom. And it was just exciting to see, wow, that there's an I to get new insights into the kingdom thanks to being part of the DNA. And I think that's what got me motivated. It was the question that's got me started, but what kept me going and going deeper and trying to sort things out more and more was these insights that I got through the DNA.
Scott AllenGive us some examples, Dwight, flesh that out a little bit for us. Uh well, okay.
SpeakerEastanley Jones says, you know, one of his points was the kingdom is the beginning and the end of God's redemptive story. It's the whole story. And I'm going, well, if it's the whole story, it has to start in Genesis 1. Well, then Daryl's teaching the transforming story and the Corumdale training, and he says, we start in Genesis 1. We don't start in Genesis 3. And I thought, no, you're right. We always start in Genesis 3. The beginning of our faith begins with, for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. We're separated from God, we're we're distant from God, we need to be um uh redeemed. We're brought back into reconciled and brought into relationship with God. And Daryl goes, No, this transforming story, the story of the Bible, the story of God, and his plan for our lives
Genesis 1 And The Cultural Mandate
Speakerbegins Genesis 1-1. And uh so that was an insight. I thought, okay, if the kingdom starts in Genesis 1-1. And then another insight I remember getting was uh when you did your uh lesson five, I think, in the Quorumdale training on the unshakable kingdom, and you talked about how you just gave a simple definition of a kingdom. A kingdom is a king, it has a realm, it has subjects, and it has the king's will. And I thought, okay, that's true, that makes sense. And and then if you look at the word kingdom in the New Testament, it's the word basalia. Literally, it means the place where the king rules. It's the realm of the king. And and I'm thinking, well, Scott was talking about the realm of the king and the king and the subjects. So the kingdom is just something it's where God rules. And so then you go, well, where does God's rule begin? Where does the story of God's rule begin? Well, it begins in Genesis 1.1. It doesn't begin in Genesis 3. So I started looking at what does the Bible tell us about the kingdom of God, those four components, starting in Genesis 1 and 2, and just unpacking it from that, those two chapters. And then more light bulbs started to come on and on.
Speaker 4So actually, do I uh as you're saying these things I'm I'm remembering here, you spoke about that in our DNA Global Forum in Ethiopia in 2023 was the anyway, 2023. And I remember hearing you, and correct if I'm wrong, but this so this the the I guess the question here is how how does that reframe the way you we you read our whole Bible? Anyb listening to this podcast, right? And how does that reframe the way you read the Bible? Uh correct now correct now if is if I'm wrong. One of the things that I heard you say, I think, uh in that global forum is even when you say the the the prayer, your kingdom come, and you said something about this the the kingdom of God uh and the this unifying theme of the Bible is the story of how God is bringing his kingdom from heaven to earth. And the Bible is telling that story of how that kingdom is gonna come from heaven to earth. Did you say that? I don't I might have said it.
SpeakerI I it's not my book right now, but uh I I would because I like that.
Speaker 4Okay, I want you I want to see it see you say yes because Nelson, if it works for you, Nelson for works for you, that's what's that's clear. I I I like it. Because I have preached about that, actually. So please say yes.
SpeakerIf I had to say it today, I would say my understanding of the kingdom of God is it's the story of the Bible is the story of God's rule. And his rule is over heaven and earth, his rule is over mankind, his subjects, and his rule is about his will. So the story of God's rule, which is his kingdom, the kingdom is where he rules, the place, and the place is the earth. It's just that's the Bible story. It's the story of God's rule. And that rule begins in Genesis 1 and 2, and he establishes it in those first two chapters. And by the time you get to the end of that, on day six, Genesis 1.31, actually it's you know, you have Genesis 2 as well, but he says it's very good. And so his rule was established, everything was in place, his subjects were in place, his realm was in place, he loved his realm, his will was completely in place. There was nothing about his will for his realm, his subjects, his people, that wasn't done in Genesis 1 and 2. And it was perfect. It was very good. As he was developing, he said, it's good, it's good, it's good, but then he got to the end, he goes, Ah, this is an amazing kingdom I have here. This is, I have subjects who are made in my image so that they can rule over the earth. I've actually, my plan is that I will delegate my entire creation to mankind and they will rule over it as I would want to rule myself, because I will give them the insight and wisdom to do that.
Scott AllenJust any point, hold your thoughts. I just want to hold your thought because I just I think that's a powerful thing that uh uh insight when you get to Genesis 1, creation of Adam and Eve, and the first job description is to rule, right? To have dominion. And it you know, when you understand the kingdom of God begins right away with God, you know, as the king creating this world, and you know, he's king by virtue of creation because he has authority over what he's created, you know? He's the king, he rules over it. And then he creates us in his image, and a big part of that becomes in a sense that we are we are also kings, right? Like That's what it means to bear God's image is be kind of kings, not like God is a king, but but under his rule, we are we actually are kings as well, you know. It helps you understand that.
SpeakerYeah. In Psalm 8.6, it says he he put everything under our feet. Right. We are over the works of his hands. All the works of his hands are under mankind's rule. Right.
Speaker 4And in Pen in Panama, in the global south in Panama last year, Dwight, you said he God put them in charge to rule, to be in command of health, economy, technology, government, etc. I like that.
SpeakerWell that's the question then. What isn't covered in Genesis 131 by God's rule? You know, marriage relationships, work relationships, how we do our work, how we live our lives, what I eat, what I don't eat, how I sleep. I mean, what God spent so much effort creating this world and this universe and life and and the biology of it and all of the intricacies of the environment. And I mean, He He had a plan for everything. So it was it was comprehensive. I mean we we get to one of your questions later on is, you know, well, Jesus was given all authority, and it's like it's a new idea that, wow, God now has authority over all of creation. Jesus has, you know, because it's given to Jesus. It's like, no, it's not a new idea. Uh He always had authority. He still has authority. What's new is that Jesus, the man who was risen from the grave, is now the king who will rule over that. He is given, he is God. Jesus, the son of
If Jesus Has Authority Why Evil
SpeakerSon of Man, Son of God, is is He's God. He was telling, you know.
Scott AllenWait, help us with this. This is, I think, a question, you're begging a question that I think a lot of people have in their heads, and I know I had too, that um God is king, Jesus is king. Um he says uh after his uh resurrection and before his ascension to his disciples, you know, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. And yet when we look at the world, that's not really what we see, right? We see, like just take, I don't know, any country, North Korea, it comes to my mind right now. Like you don't see Jesus ruling over North Korea, you see a powerful tyrant that's controlling that country. You know, and I i there's a verse that always I thought was very intriguing that speaks to this. It's in Hebrews. I don't I should have the exact reference, but it's that verse that says in putting everything in subjection to him, meaning Jesus, in other words, all everything is subject to him as king, uh he left nothing that is not subject to him, you know, everything, nothing, right? Right. But then it goes on and it says, yet at the present we don't see everything in subjection, you know, which is true, which is true. We don't, you know. Okay. But but you know, so yeah, how do you how do you it make sense of the thing? Well I recognize because that is, I think, where people struggle a little bit. Like we if he's king overall, I don't see it, you know.
SpeakerLike what is that Well okay, that goes back to Genesis three. Right. If God was the ruler of the universe in Genesis 131, did he lose his rulership? Did he lose his authority? Did he lose his kingship?
Scott AllenWas he no longer king once the Genesis 3.1. Yes.
SpeakerDid he lose his kingship?
Scott AllenRight.
SpeakerOr was there a rebellion in the land that was led by Satan and joined by mankind? So we now have a we have a kingdom where God is the ruler over everything, and the Bible makes it clear throughout the Old Testament, God is ruler. He didn't I'm begging the question, did he lose his rulership? And you know the answer is no, he didn't. And it's clear throughout the Old Testament that God rules over heaven and earth. Time and time again, you know.
Speaker 2Absolutely. Yes.
SpeakerHe never, and Scott, you made this point, and I thought, Scott's right. He doesn't lose his kingship. Well, what happened? Well, you got you got the Roman rebellion. And that's true. But I think we've we we tend to think, well, God is no longer ruler. No, he's still ruler. He's just sitting quiet for a bit. Sometimes he doesn't sit quiet. He gets very very engaged, you know. He got very engaged on the cross, you know. So But that's a that's a big question I pose. Did God, did his plan for his kingdom change? Did he put it on the back shelf? Did he say, I'm gonna now wait until Revelation 21, till the second coming, and then we'll have all these kingdoms. People can then live kingdom lives. They can live the way I designed them to live. In the meantime, you get married, go ahead and abuse your wife, because yeah, I didn't plan it that way, I didn't create you to do that, I didn't want you to be that way. That's not my desire for you. But you go ahead and treat her like you know, a second-class citizen or somebody, something you use, you know, a tool if you're an African. So I well, whatever. So, are a business. You know, I created you to to to run businesses, to to to create things, to create wealth, but now you can steal. You can abuse people, you can actually take more than you give. Yeah, that's okay, because well, we have the fall, and I'm not in charge anymore. And uh so those, you know, those rules are off. No, you not none of that changed.
Scott AllenNo, it's really well said, Dwight. I think the picture that I see in the scriptures is a picture after the fall uh and this rebellion, um uh human rebellion and you know, uh d demonic or s s satanic rebellion, um, which actually happened before the fall, but uh but you see a picture of a long-suffering God who is going to restore his kingdom, and he has a plan to do that. That you know, in the Old Testament, um his plan centered on Israel, um, and in the New Testament it was expanded to the church, but it's to be to raise up a people and and help them in his power to begin to to recover, to live the way that he wanted them to back in Genesis
What “World” Really Means in the Bible
Scott Allenchapter one and two, you know, before the fall. And that'll be fully realized, or as Darrow would say, consummated at the end when he comes back. But there it's kind of like this um it's it's uh uh birthed into this fallen world and expanding, if you will, right? And that uh uh it's still such a controversial subject. I I just last week I was having a little debate on X with a guy who, you know, they people love to bring up this verse that Jesus says um, you know, before Pilate, right, where uh Jesus says, My kingdom is not of this world, right? To Pilate, right? And they they love that because it's like, see, Jesus said that his kingdom is in heaven, it has nothing to do with this world, right? Like that that's they do they that's so common right now.
SpeakerI I'm not a theologian, but my response to that would be the same as where John says, love not the world, or God says, Jesus says, Love not the world, maybe the things that are in the world. So he's saying, you know, I hate the earth, I hate mankind because he's made of dirt from the dust of the ground. So don't love anything, don't love your food, don't love your bed, don't love your dog, don't love anything because it's all the world.
Scott AllenIt's the fallen world, this evil fallen world, right?
SpeakerAnd I'm saying the word world there means the fallen world. Right. It means the corrupted world. It means what happened with when sin entered into everything and broke everything. It didn't say food is now bad. It didn't say pets are now bad. It said no, sin has corrupted everything. So don't love the corruption, don't love the the the brokenness, don't love the illness, don't love the distortion, don't love the diminishment of what I created, you know. And it my you know, my kingdom is not of this world, my kingdom is not the way the world's kingdom is. That's how I would think Jesus is telling. You you rule this way, and this is how you think. Trust me, I don't think that way. I have a way different view of life and reality than you do, Pilate, because I have a I have a biblical worldview.
Speaker 4And and interesting right that you say that because you also say something about the way of Jesus, like the way of the kingdom, the way of Jesus. And Jesus says uh the my the kingdom is is near. The word near means actually it's right here in front of you. Near, right? It has arrived. Um and this whole idea of being uh as you said, Scott, being from from far away, the the ways of Jesus, the ways and and the whole incarnation, right? He engages with brokenness. It's not that he's gonna be there in a spiritual, ethereal realm dealing with the problems here. He actually incarnates, he comes. He the king comes. Yes, he steps down here. He is born in the in the outskirts of Galilee. Um and then his ways, and you talk about love, uh sacrificial love, the ways of the king. Even even as you go to Revelation, I don't I don't know if you're gonna do that in your book, but the whole idea of the lamb and the lion, the lamb is at the center of the throne. When John turns to see, and when the elders say don't cry, the lion has won to open the seven seals, and he turns around, he sees a lamb. So so the the ways of Jesus, the sacrificial love, that's what end ends up defeating evil. So so what are your thoughts about that? I mean the kingdom of God, and when you say the ways of Jesus and love, you say something about the love. And I think you quoted uh Aquinas, he said the to love
The King’s Will And Love
Speaker 4is to will the good of the other. Talk about the ways of the kingdom in terms of love.
SpeakerWell, yeah. Okay, well, well, I I parked quite a while on the question of the king's will. Scott, that was your fourth point. The king has a will, he has laws and mandates that tell you what he wants and how he wishes things are to be and function.
Scott AllenYes.
SpeakerAnd so I parked there a while. I go, what is the will of the king? And that's where understanding the biblical worldview helped, because um went back to Abraham Kuiper and his three relationships, and says, if I had to narrow down all of the 2,000 commands in the Bible to God's will for his these three primary relationships, what would it look like? What would the king's will be? The king's will in relationship to himself as God, king's will in relationship to man, to man, and the king's relationship to or the man's relationship to creation. And that's where I just unpacked that at every level, starting with what what did that look like in Genesis 1 and 2? What did that look like after the fall? How did how did how that was actually restated with Noah in part when when Noah survived the flood? And then how was that reintroduced to us through Israel? God's will for his relationship to himself, to one another, and to the to the environment to the to the world around us, to all of life. And I see the Bible, uh the the role of Israel being we never would have understood the kingdom without without Israel, because Israel basically gives us Genesis. We wouldn't even know Genesis, the story of Genesis without Israel. So basically they they gave us the story of God's rule and his will and revealed it to us through the Old Testament. And w that's how the world otherwise the world was completely in the dark. And um where am I going with this?
Scott AllenWhat yeah, what what what did that mean for you personally, Dwight? Just in your own personal life, you know, your marriage, work, um just this reflection on the will of God, doing the will of God. Because it reminds me of Bob Moffat often says that he defines the kingdom as the place where God's will is done, right? You know, the will of the king is carried out. Yeah.
SpeakerSo so God gives his law to Israel and says, This is how I want you, the chosen people, a special people, to live and be. I want you to actually reflect my rule, my kingdom to the entire planet. And they failed. But they did give us the Bible. So we have a written testament of God's will for mankind through them. Yeah. What struck me there was, you know, we we look at Israel and we go, oh, they were a failure. You know, they were a failure. Well, of course they were a failure because they were the the problem with the fall and the problem with sin is that it affected the heart. It affected the the deepest part of mankind. Sin is not just having a biblical, you don't conquer sin with a biblical worldview. Otherwise, Israel would have done it. They had a biblical worldview, they understand the biblical the Bible better than anybody because they wrote the thing for us. But that did not save them because there was a deep issue in their heart. And then you see in Ezekiel where God says, I'm gonna give you a new heart, I've given you the law, so you know what to do, but you guys are all not doing it. Paul says this in Romans 8 again, the good that I want to do, I don't do.
Scott AllenYes.
SpeakerSo there's always this intention, we we want to we we know what's right, we want to do what's right, we want to think what's right, we want to believe what's right, but God says, I'm gonna give you a new heart and a new spirit. I'm gonna give you my heart and my spirit.
Scott AllenBy which you can do my will. Yeah.
SpeakerBy which you can do my will. And that when when Jesus says the kingdom is nigh, I'm thinking, well, the kingdom is near because he's establishing himself as the king that will rule over the earth, you know, physically. We have Jesus the king. But his will is also going to come in a whole new way that didn't come through Israel because people are the church is going to be empowered with the Holy Spirit of God and have the heart of Christ in them. We should be able to live a little bit of the kingdom. We have this new thing called the Holy Spirit, the actual Spirit of God Himself and the heart of God Himself. We should be able to live a bit like He planned us to live in Genesis 1 and 2. And that's the kingdom coming. His will is going to be done on earth, isn't it? So the kingdom is coming now. Will it come completely? No. Am I going to live as if it as if I can bring the kingdom? Yeah, I want I want the kingdom to come to my family relationships. I want it to come to my writing. I want it to come to my work. I want it to come to, you know, the way I see people and the way I interact with my wife. Yeah. And the Spirit can help me.
Scott AllenAnd very practical, you know. Yeah, go ahead, Luke.
Luke AllenYeah, I mean, it's just so cool to see the separation between the Old Testament again, where they were given the law. The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul, you know, the statutes of the Lord are trustworthy, making wise as simple, so on and so forth, Psalm 19. But they didn't have the Holy Spirit, and that's the big separation. And now they did. They did a little Yeah, unpack that too.
SpeakerWell, I'll do that later. Go ahead and finish your point.
Luke AllenWell, I mean, yeah, that was kind of my point. They didn't have the Holy Spirit that was given
Holy Spirit Power For Kingdom Life
Luke Allento them individually to live with inside of them and empower them to do God's will.
SpeakerOn that point, is out of curiosity, I I just did, well, where did the Holy Spirit show up in the Old Testament? And I didn't do a comprehensive study. But you can see time and time again where the Spirit of God is present in Old Testament characters, and it's obvious that it changes them, and it changes the way they do things, and it empowers them in a whole new way. The obvious one is uh Bezalel, the craftsman of the temple, where he was filled with the Spirit of God so that he could make chairs, make ornaments for the temple, so he could be an excellent craftsman.
Scott AllenUm another one was um by the way, on that Dwayne, I the Bible project folks uh up here in Portland. I I um I watched their um one of their uh videos and and I like the way they described the temple that Bezalel was building, right? That that the the tabernacle, you know, in in the Old Testament. It was uh to be a representation of the Garden of Eden. Right, right. That that really helped me.
Speaker 2Yeah.
SpeakerWhich is because that's how another symbol, this is how I want you to live. I want you to live in the and Eden means delight. I want you to live a life of delight. That's what now we're going back to made to live. Why why I named the book that way. I really I'm convinced that God's plan for mankind is to live a life, uh live good lives in the best sense of the word.
Luke AllenYeah, and I mean, tying back to that really cool example from the Bible Project, guys, the the temple was made to reflect the garden, the place of perfection where where God's will was done the most clearly. And then the new testament we with man the New Testament we are called the temple of the Holy Spirit, each of us. So in a way we were our our lives should be reflecting of the garden. Wow, boom. That was bitter.
SpeakerAnd Ezekiel 47 takes it even further, and it shows this picture of the water of the Spirit coming from the temple, the sanctuary of God, and flows towards Eden, or towards the exiles in the east, not towards Eden, towards exiles in the east. And then Paul says, Yes, now we're the temple of God, and Jesus in in John 7 says, streams of living water will flow from within you. So the water of the Spirit that flew from the that came from the temple is now to come from Scott and Nelson and Luke to flow to other people. Wow. So powerful. So it's it's not the same.
Scott AllenYou've got to understand this kingdom of God's subject, you to understand everything in the Bible, it all comes back to that, doesn't it, Dwight? It's a good thing. It's like the Rosetta Stone of the whole scripture.
Speaker 4And and this whole idea of the Holy Spirit, right? You say you talk about you say we need the Holy Spirit to live the way of Jesus, the way Jesus lived, the kingdom way, right? And this whole idea of how to understand the Holy Spirit, for me that's another big question, because he's with us. We are temples, we are dwell, he dwells, right? We are so the uh anyway. So this whole idea of this dynamic, we we sometimes we make it too static, I think. Uh but it's this whole dynamic that comes, as Jesus promised, the wait until the that is this whole dynamic that goes way more to live my holy life and to be empowered for evangelism. There's way more than that when they talk about the whole dynamic of the Holy Spirit with us now, right? From from heaven to earth, right? So I I I I like the way that you you also mentioned the Holy Spirit.
SpeakerOf course, yeah, I I I feel like a two-year-old when it comes to the Holy Spirit, because I I read what the Holy Spirit is, it's the Spirit of God, the creator of the universe. Oh my goodness, that's supposed to dwell in me. That's supposed to somehow empower me and give me wisdom and understanding and knowledge and courage and the fear of the Lord. And I'm like, wow, I I haven't tapped that pretty well yet. But but but I believe it. And I also it's funny, I anymore. It's like if I'm doing a project and getting old, I feel more and more feeble doing projects, so I I just pray more, I guess, when I'm trying to figure things out. Whether I'm putting in a window for my daughter or you know, fixing something for my son. And I'll just go, Lord, give me dominion over this, give me your spirit that I can have the spirit of wisdom and understanding to solve this problem and to and to figure it out, or to get to somebody who does. And I feel like the Spirit of God, in a very small way, nudges me towards understanding, nudges me towards insight, and brings people to help me or whatever. So I I think I know it's real, but I haven't experienced it to the volume that I'd like. But welcome to the club. Yeah, I know. I'm not alone. I will. But I think we all could. I think we all have have untapped reserves of the Spirit of God available to us that we have never tapped into. Exactly.
Speaker 4And we should, you know, and that's an how to tap into it. And and that's an amazing thought.
SpeakerYeah. Uh how much of our life is wasted, which is interesting because I mean that's I heard this question the other day. Can somebody be good without being a Christian? And I thought, well, that's a sudden funny question. You know, what does it mean to be good and what does it mean to be a Christian? But but um my but but can anybody be as all that they're supposed to be without the Spirit of God? Now that I could answer. I don't think so. I don't think so. I think a good person can be good, but I don't know, can they be all they're supposed to be? They're created to be? No, I don't think so.
Speaker 4Yeah, the the question can someone be beautiful if they Be a Christian. Maybe that can help.
SpeakerI think there's there's all kinds of beauty. You can create beauty, but the Spirit of God enhances everything. It brings life to everything.
Luke AllenYeah, that really depends on how you define beauty.
SpeakerI mean the fact that we're made in the image of God says we can do some things right. We can do that.
Scott AllenBut there's degrees of being able to do what's good, right? Exactly. In other words, you they they don't they're not as evil as they could be. And part of the reason for that is that, I mean, not everyone is Adolf Hitler, the world would you know fall apart within days if that was the case. People can love their children and you know care for creation. And part of the reason for that is they have a conscience. In other words, God's revealed his his moral law, what is good, what is right, to everybody at some deg some level through their conscience. And um so Paul talks about this in Romans, you know, how the non-believers, if you will, um, you know, they are being obedient to the word that's been revealed in their hearts, right? Um but you know, the course the conscience isn't perfect, and you you can do more good with the word of God, you know, the law of God, and then you can do even more good when God's Holy Spirit fills you, right? So it's kind of a matter of degrees, I think, you know.
Luke AllenUm yeah, I like the way CS unpacks that in mere Christianity. I think it's chapter 20 um about doing good as a as a non-Christian. But I mean, uh a lot of these questions come back to, I think, a wrong understanding of the answers to the four big questions of what is a kingdom, right? You know, there's
What It Means To Be Human
Luke Allena king, there's a realm, there's subjects, and then there's there's the king's will being done. But I don't know, I mean, Dwight, I'm asking you this. Why do people get those questions wrong so often? When we're asked as Christians, who is the king, we get that one right. It's God, like good job. But then when we ask where's the realm and who are the subjects, we usually get those wrong. At least I've heard him got wrong a lot. People will say, Where's the realm of the king? People say heaven. You know, or heaven or the church.
Scott AllenLike it's limited to that. You know, he's a good thing.
Luke AllenAnd then who are the who are the subjects? Who are the subjects the ones who can do God's will? People will say Christians. It's like no. Well, so why are we getting these wrong?
Scott AllenUm right, that's right.
SpeakerThat's a good question. I didn't I haven't written about it, haven't thought about it much. Thought about it a little. Um I I think that basically it goes back to, and we talk about this in the DNA all the time. You you you you live the worldview you were born into. You frame life, you frame the Bible through the worldview you were born into. So I think because we have grown up in a secular human materialistic society, we have a view of God that's constantly influenced by that. We have a view of the realm that's constantly influenced by that. We have a view of the subjects that's constantly influenced by that. Because if you go back to Genesis, it's very, very clear. All human beings are God's subjects. Now, are they subjects in the sense that they're obedient, they're following him, they're they're no, they're subjects in rebellion now. So that's a different classification. But are they subjects? Well, they're still He loves them. He wants to redeem them. He ha he's been working since the fall to make a way for people to come back to him.
Scott AllenSo there's subjection to him. I mean, the story of Nebuchadnezzar, I think, is really a good illustration of this. You know, Nebuchadnezzar set himself up to be God. You know, I'm the greatest, I'm the greatest, nobody's like me. And God humbled him, right? No, you're not. You know, I'm still king. No. Just a reminder, I'm still king. That's just as true today as it was then. Yeah.
SpeakerYeah, we're still in subjection. Right.
Speaker 4And also and also I this whole thought that um from Genesis 1 and 2, as you said, like how God creates us in his image and has all this plan for us, the truly and fully humans. He creates us there as truly and fully humans. We rebel, Genesis 3. And then redemption is all about uh God bringing bringing us back to being truly and fully humans. It's about being humans. But that cannot happen just but I cannot do that. It has to be through the cross, it has to be through the king, has to be through the kingdom and his ways, right? Um but but it's all about being human. Even before it being about being Christians, uh it's about being humans. But it can only be through Christ. That's that is the world way. Otherwise I used I used to do the work that we did in poor communities in Brazil. I used to say to the to the people we worked with uh make sure that you understand that we are about God making people more human as He designed them in this poor community. But make sure that you understand that if that's all we are just social activists. Without redemption, there's no sustainable transformation, I used to say to them, right?
SpeakerYeah, I mean that that's where I think what does it mean to be Christian? I think you're much better off saying what does it mean to be human? What is what has God created us to be? Who are you as a human being? And and then you go back to Genesis 1 and 2. Well, you're made in the image of God, you're made unique, you're made with a purpose to rule over heaven and over earth and all of his work of his hands. You're you're made equal in dignity and worth. Yeah, I mean on and on and on. So yeah. We are saved to be human. We are saved to be what God made us to be. And you know, that's what we're being back to. Amen.
Luke AllenYeah. Again, when you start in Genesis, it does make a lot of sense, but back to the Genesis III Christians, not the Genesis I Christians, is if you start there with the fall, then a lot of people say, you know, whose kingdom is this earth? People say Satan, you know, the Prince of the Power of the Air. And uh I yeah, it's probably just an outcome of that kind of wrong view of the the story starting in Genesis III.
SpeakerWhat does it mean to be human? It means to be corrupt and evil and sinful and you know, broken.
Scott AllenOne of my favorite verses in the New Testament in John 14, it's been so meaningful to me, and I think so powerful and relevant to this discussion is where Jesus is speaking to his disciples before going to the cross, right before going to the cross, and he makes this claim. He says, the the ruler of this world, and it's interesting, he calls Satan the ruler of this world more than once. The ruler of this world is coming for me, he has no claim on me. That second part of that has always deeply moved me. He gives Satan a lot of power, you know, this kind of rebellious, uh, what do you want to call him, usurper to the throne? You know, he struts around acting like the king of this world, and he does have power, but he has no claim on me. I'm the true king. And it's been very meaningful to me that the king lives in me, you know, because of the spirit. He has no claim on me either, you know, and uh it just in terms of just practical spiritual warfare, that means a lot to me. That the the true king, the greater, the more powerful king, you know.
Speaker 4Go ahead and say, And he's claiming that he has uh that this system, the world, this system, this rebellious system that rebels against God, right? Um I remember Regent College, one of the professors there, I'm trying to remember who was that, he said, even the evil, we we talked in this podcast here about why if if God is king, why all these things are happening. And he he used to say that even what the evil in the world, what you see is uh the kingdom of God is advancing. There is resistance. The w the evil that you see is the resistance against the kingdom. The advancement of the kingdom, but the story is about the advancement of God's kingdom. The evil is resistance and it will pass away. Um so this whole idea that Jesus calls him the ruler of this system, rebellious system against his kingdom, right? But it doesn't have the last word and doesn't even it's not it this is not the beginning. This worldly system rebellion is not the beginning, as we said, Genesis three, as Luke just said, right? It's Genesis one and two that is the the template.
Scott AllenI think uh some of the confusion here comes from this word world. You know, in the New Testament, world um can be used as something that God loves and longs to redeem, for God so loves the world. And then of course it can be used to describe the fallen world, this like you're saying, Nelson, this this fallen world system, you know. The world of the world. You know, right, you know. Do not be and I don't know it in Portuguese, Nelson, is it this I I think it's a translation issue. I don't know the the original Hebrew. I i I often wonder, is it the same word that's being used or and we just translate it the world in both cases?
Speaker 4Same in Portuguese, mundo. Okay, same. So you use the same word.
Scott AllenBut in the in the dictators, you have to understand that word correctly based on the context. It doesn't mean the same thing because I think a lot of Christians assume when you use the word the world, it's just the fallen world that is going away and that God isn't ruler over, and it's you know, and then his kingdom is is his you know, he's not interested in this world, this fallen world, he's interested in heaven and and you know, yeah.
Speaker 4So how to go about it and understand that sometimes it's talk about word uh physical word, sometimes about people, group of people. Sometimes it's about the system of iniquity, systems of iniquity, right?
SpeakerWell dude, I would I would challenge that person, Scott, that that thinks that way to start in Genesis one and two with the questions of who's the king, who's the subjects, what's the realm, what's the king's will. Yes, and then trace that, decide that true that's true about Genesis one and two, and then actually trace that through the entire Bible. Yes. Because you will my experience, some I think Luke you asked me what where did you know where did you end up? My experience is the Bible makes sense, that redemption makes sense if you have a kingdom understanding of the Bible, the kingdom understanding of of God's story. It it just it all falls into place. Even the the work of the Holy Spirit. Um, you look at the Old Testament, I was gonna mention, you know, Daniel was the king looked at him and the king's wife, I guess, was and said, Hey, you should talk to Daniel because he's a man who has the spirit of God in him. He's full of wisdom and understanding and insight. He can solve problems. She describes a person that's basically a godly person that's full of the Holy Spirit. That's Daniel. Uh I I looked at King Saul and he had one good week where it says he was filled with the Spirit of God and he actually did things right. Otherwise, he was pretty neurotic and insecure. But he had one good week, and it was where the Spirit of God came upon Saul. So I I see the Bible as a story of God saying, I want to give you my understanding of what my plan for your life is, and then I want to redeem you back to myself so that there's no more broken relationship. I can actually come in, I can forgive you your sin and put my spirit inside you permanently. And then guess what? You are going to live, you're going to start living the way I designed you to live. And that's my kingdom. My kingdom is coming because my will will be done in your life. It'll be done through you. It'll be coming through your work in the community. So, what's the kingdom coming? It's his will being done because you, filled with the Holy Spirit, are living out God's intentions. And that's it. And is it going to be complete until no, because Satan is always here fighting, and he's getting more and more vicious, more and more ferocious, more and more angry. So he's putting up more and more of a defense as the more we go, and that will happen until, of course, the last day. So, but it makes sense. Yep. Absolutely.
Made To Live And Final Charge
Scott AllenThe book is called Made to Live: The Good News of the Kingdom of God. The author that we're speaking with is Dwight Vogue. I want to encourage all of you that are listening to go to made to livebook.com, read about it, read the great endorsements, by the way. Just you've got some fantastic endorsements. Like from really famous Christians like Scott Allen and how'd you get that one?
SpeakerSorry, Luke and Nelson, I missed you.
Scott AllenNo, but check check it out. And um Dwight, one maybe as we wrap up here, I I one question I again I go back to your comment at the beginning of the pod here, where you were saying, you know, I kind of wrote this book to help me understand more. And you have such great humility too, Dwight. You're like, I'm not an expert yet, I'm still learning. You know, I'll I'll address that maybe in another book. But what what what are what's one insight, one or two insights, maybe, Dwight, that you you were that were fresh for you that uh came about because of this book, the writing of this book, or or or things you understood deep m in in a deeper way.
SpeakerI I think the last point that I made was probably the most refreshing for me. The fact that God gives us his spirit so that we can live his kingdom life. And his kingdom will come through us and in us, and because of us, because he's in us working and can induce now anyway. That's so made to live.
Scott AllenMade to live is the title of the book, right?
SpeakerAnd and and and because of that, I have my own special role in God's kingdom, and and that's the role of Dwight Bode. And you know, throughout our entire life, you know, I've always, you know, if I could just be like this person, if I could just be like this person, if I had their gifts, their talents, their abilities, their authority, their you know, their salary, whatever. But I'm Dwight, and God has put Dwight here for a very specific reason, this time in history, and I am the meaning of my life is is how I live it. And I have to live my life the best I can, and that matters because God decided to put me here, and He thinks it's worth having me here, and He breathed life into me, gave me my personality and my whatever, you know. So the uniqueness of every human being, whether you're a widow in South Korea living under, you know, a totalitarian dictator or you know, the the Pope himself, every person has a has a part, a special place in God's kingdom, you know, a reason to be here, and a mandate to fulfill.
Luke AllenSo I love the title. The title means so much more now. I've come to give you life and life abundantly, you know.
Speaker 4And by the way, the cover. I love the cover. The river coming, yeah, and the river coming through us, and thus, as you said before, you know, and the the spirit flowing from us, right?
SpeakerAnd it's in Phoenix, it's in the desert. Yeah, which is where we live, by the way. Not I I live here physically, but but as as believ uh well, as human beings, we live in a desert called a broken, fallen, sinful world.
Speaker 2It's really beautiful, Dwight.
Scott AllenAnd that imagery is so powerful in uh in the Bible, too, of the river that comes from um the temple, you know. Uh yeah. That that you know starts as a trickle and grows deeper and deeper and deeper until it covers the world, you know. So anyways.
SpeakerWell, Dwight, and I think and I think that and I and that's also happening. I I I literally I think that's happening. You know, in my lifetime we've seen the church grow in China.
Speaker 2Yes.
SpeakerWho knows how the church has impacted China and how part of China is resisting and part of China is responding? Same with Iraq, same with Iran.
Scott AllenYeah, I've been thinking about that a lot about uh Iran, just because we're we're in this war right now against that regime, but just how the church has grown so rapidly in just recent years, you hear these testimonies coming out of Iran of the river flowing into that country and people coming to faith in Christ.
SpeakerWhat does it look like for them to live kingdom lives under that regime right now? Exactly. And they're doing it. Somehow they're doing it.
Scott AllenWell, the king is greater, he is the ruler, he's the true ruler, and and we flourish, we learn to live how we were meant to live when we bow our knee, right? I think it begins with that. He's the king, we're not. That's like really important to say in the United States today. Um, he's the king, we're not. And it all begins when you bow the knee, this total surrender, you know, to his authority, his kingship. And then he fills you with his spirit and and you begin to live as he designed you to live, as he created you to live, as you were made to live. So Dwight, great book. Really great. I just really so appreciate you and um just the insights that you have, um, and just the the the example you are to me of a just a lifelong learner who's like, I want to push further up, further in, and just keep growing in my understanding and application. Even in simple things, like I love, you know, Dwight's a real handyman, so like I'm putting in a toilet and I want to pray to God, give me insight and wisdom, you know, on how to have dominion here over this uh in this example.
SpeakerI don't want to pay somebody, help me, Lord.
Scott AllenIt's great. Uh Dwight, thanks for your time today. And Nelson, great to have you and Luke as well. So thanks uh thanks for joining us today on this pod. All right. That was great.
