When Truth Collapses: AI, Wikipedia, and Venezuela’s Warning | Vishal Mangalwadi

Episode Summary: 

Truth is the engine of flourishing cultures. Season three of Ideas Have Consequences launches with a timely conversation with Vishal Mangalwadi on why nations collapse when truth is abandoned, and how they can be rebuilt. We explore the present reality of Christ’s kingship, the evangelical retreat from cultural reform, and why political change fails without moral and intellectual renewal. From Venezuela to Minnesota to Iran, cultures that reject truth inevitably deteriorate and fall. This episode confronts the ideas that are shaping and misshaping our world.

Vishal introduces Truthpedia, a bold response to Wikipedia’s bias and AI’s growing echo chamber: a new digital ecosystem combining a truth-anchored encyclopedia, free high school education, and university programs that train leaders to become nation builders. We discuss discipling nations beyond elections and protests, restoring language as a tool for reality, and forming civil servants who love truth. If you’re concerned about the future of education, AI, and cultural renewal, this episode with Vishal offers both clarity and a path forward.

Who is Disciple Nations Alliance (DNA)? Since 1997, DNA’s mission has been to equip followers of Jesus around the globe with a biblical worldview, empowering them to build flourishing families, communities, and nations. 👉 https://disciplenations.org/

🎙️Featured Speaker: 

Vishal Mangalwadi is a social reformer, political columnist, Indian Christian philosopher, writer, and lecturer. He is the author of 20 books, including The Book that Made Your World: How the Bible Created the Soul of Western Civilization. He is also a long-term friend of the DNA and one of the thought leaders at the birth of our organization.

📌 Recommended Links

     👉 Find Vishal: Home - Revelation Movement

     👉 Recommended episode: Can the Sun Rise on the West Again? | Vishal Mangalwadi - Disciple Nations Alliance

     👉 Third Education Revolution: Third Education Revolution | Home School to Church College

     👉 More on Truthpedia: A Revolution in Education: Truthpedia - Revelation Movement

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Episode Webpage

Transcript

Vishal Mangalwadi 0:02

Protestantism doesn't protest and it doesn't reform. So when the president of the USS says that Washington, DC is a corrupt swamp on Minnesota, he's saying that the evangelical Christianity has failed. The United States of America has become divided states of America, and it is divided along the ideas. And that's the battle that we have been called to fight. So what's happening in Minnesota right now, Venezuela, Iran. It is the specific political, legal, military actions is one thing, but the fundamental battles are really the battles for the mind, battles for the ideas.

Luke Allen 0:49

Ladies and gentlemen, today is episode number 201, which means today is the official launch of season three here on Ideas Have Consequences, the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. Thank you guys so much for joining us here today on the show. As we know, as Christians, our mission is to spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. We all agree on that. However, our mission, the Great Co-Mission, also involves working to transform our cultures so that they increasingly reflect the truth, the goodness, and the beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected this second part of her mission. And today, most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us here on this podcast for season three as we continue to discover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God. Hi guys, my name is Luke Allen. I am one of the co-hosts here on the show. And today I am joined by my dad, my boss, my co-host, author, speaker, and award-winning, according to my two-year-old son, pizza and muffin chef Scott Allen.

Scott Allen 1:56

Yeah, it's great. It's great to have a claim to fame. So thanks, Luke. It's great to be with you. And uh yeah, we're so excited on this episode to have back with us one of our old-time favorites and uh our guest, Vishal Mongolwadi, the great author and scholar. Um, and uh for those of you who have listened to our podcast over over the years, uh you'll have heard Vishal on several times, and he's always one of our most popular guests. Um so today, yeah, today we did we dove right in and tried to explore a new project that he's working on called Truthpedia. Uh he really wants to create, he gets gets back to that old idea of encyclopedia, of uh a knowledge bank based on the truth that can be used as a foundation for uh particularly for curriculum, for for school, for high school, university students, and for for the purpose of building nations, for training people uh in the vocations to be nation builders. Uh so he's got an ambitious vision and uh a lot of our conversation today was just understanding what he's working on.

Luke Allen 3:00

So yeah, we we hit on uh that primarily. We also talked about AI, which I really enjoyed that part of the discussion, even though we didn't delve into that as much as I was hoping to, but we will be diving into that in future episodes. Uh, we also talked about uh what's going on in Venezuela right now, which I thought was probably my highlight of the discussion. Um, this episode we're recording here on January 12th. It's not going to come out for a couple weeks, but Venezuela, I'm sure, will still be in the news and what's going on there. So as always, it's really just interesting to delve into what Vishala is currently thinking about as the philosopher that he is. So I hope you guys enjoy this discussion. And without further ado, let's hop into it.

Introducing Vishal And Truthpedia Vision

Scott Allen 3:37

Well, welcome again, everybody, to um episode one of season three of the podcast. This is exciting. We're kicking off a new season, and uh I am thrilled to be joined today by Darrow Miller on his birthday. Happy birthday, Darrow. Happy birthday. Thank you. Darrow, can we ask which one it is? Oh, I have more gray hair this year, so I'm 82. 82. Congratulations, Darrow. You look great. You look great. So we're joined by Darrow on his birthday. We're joined by Luke. Luke, it's great to see you. And I am thrilled that we have uh kicking off the new season with us our old friend um who's not old. He looks great as well, Vishal Mongoladi. Hi, Vishall. Great to see you.

Speaker 4:26

Well, thank you very much. I just celebrated 76th birthday.

Scott Allen 4:30

Oh, you're so young. I was wondering how old you were. Yeah, you're a young guy. Okay. Well, listen, Vishal, thank you so much for joining us today. And for those of you who don't know uh Vishall, um, he is really one of the preeminent Christian philosophers and scholars on the subject of biblical worldview and the power of the Bible and biblical truth to transform culture. He's got must-read books. All of his books are must-read. Um, uh a couple I'll just point out uh to you, new listeners, um, that I would recommend starting with the book that made your world. That would be the Bible. And this book changed everything, volume one and volume two of that. Uh, excellent books to start with. All of his books are really worth checking out and his teaching. So, Vishal, great to have you back with us again. And uh, and uh just to be able to catch up with you and hear what God has uh been doing with you and through you. You've got uh I I love reading your your e-newsletters and just trying to catch up and keep up with uh all that's going on with you. It's always amazing, just what what what what kind of vision that God has given you and what you're pursuing. So love to start with that actually, Vishal. Just kind of catch us up. What have you been working on? Um, what uh maybe I could put it this way what has God been teaching you right now? What has God been revealing to you? If I could start with that kind of big broad question.

Kingship Of Christ And Cultural Reform

Protestant Retreat And The Battle For Minds

Speaker 5:56

Thank you. During this Christmas New Year season, uh the truth that the baby that was born in Bethlehem, upon his shoulders is the governance of the world, and he is inviting us, he is the Prince of Peace, and he invites us to take his yoke, his burden upon our shoulders. So the kingship of Christ, the kingship uh of all believers, this is an important theme for me because uh so much of our uh Christian preaching has downplayed kingship. There are you can hear pastors saying that in Bethlehem Jesus came as a savior. In the second coming, he will come as the king. So the he did not come uh as a king. The implication of this is enormous, but just one brief point would be that uh the pagan influence on uh the gospel has really weakened the gospel. So you have Bible's worldview, this is in terms of ideas of consequences, Bible's worldview and pagan worldview. According to the Bible, uh God created creation. God is good, his creation is good, everything he made was good. Um according to paganism, good and evil coexist in God and therefore they coexist in creation. If good and evil, if evil is also permanent in and also coexists in God, gods and incarnation of gods, as Hinduism would put it, then uh evil is metaphysically eternal, but in the Bible's worldview, um evil comes as a moral rebellion against good. So it is not eternal, and moral transformation or salvation from sin means that reform of the world is possible, must happen. So Protestantism begins as reformation, it reforms medieval Europe. Today, Protestantism doesn't protest and it doesn't reform. So when the president of the US, when the president of the USS says that Washington, DC is a corrupt swamp, or Minnesota is a corrupt swamp, he's saying that the evangelical Christianity has failed. The idea that when people go forward in a crusade and pray sinner's prayer, uh this being that is being born again, this will change uh the world. It it hasn't changed. It hasn't changed America, it hasn't changed Latin America, it hasn't changed much of Africa, which has accepted um evangelical gospel, because evangelical gospel is not a Protestant gospel. In in Hinduism, you escape from Hinduism and Buddhism. Spirituality is escaping from evil reality, but in the gospel, uh, spirituality is making you a new creation. It's not just your soul being renewed, but a new heaven, new earth, new city, new Jerusalem, reconciliation of brothers who have ill-treated Joseph, um, being forgiven, being reconciled. So this idea that God created a good creation and he is recreating a good creation. Uh, evil is not part of God's kingdom, he's not part of God's nature. This is an important part of biblical worldview where the Bible is taught, so Protestantism reformed Europe because it was a return to the Bible. But unfortunately, much of evangelical gospel has become pagan, where it does, it says, yes, well, if you're born again, you go to heaven, but whether it actually will change the swamp, and obviously, um while I support what President Trump is doing in many parts of the world, he will not succeed in Venezuela in making Venezuela a good country without the church discipling the nation. So I love DNA, discipling nations, because uh it's it's the nation that has to be transformed, discipled, educated. And that's what truth VD is all about.

Scott Allen 10:55

Well, I just am I you you you've you've put your finger on really the very heart of our mission again, Vishal. And the reason that we are doing what we're doing, the work that we're doing, the calling that we have is to remind the church of the very things that you so uh uh eloquently put and provocatively put, which I appreciate your you know, pro the provocative is is calling it pagan. Um and I think you're you're exactly right. It is pagan. I think you're exactly right with that, Vishal. Yeah, that's right. I you know, I think that yeah, it still strikes me, Vishal, that as much as we've been teaching and working on this over many years, that there's still it still seems to be what you're describing is still dominant in the evangelical mind in terms of its understanding of who it is and what its mission is. Do you agree?

America’s Idea War And Global Flashpoints

Speaker 11:45

Yes, yes. So that's a sad truth. And there has been at least this 200 years of anti-intellectualism. Uh 1805 was when uh Christianity, Trinitarian Christianity lost Harvard University. And after that, we began kept in America, kept losing the battle for the mind, and retreated from the university into the seminary, uh, which was a major mistake, and that mistake has been exported all over the world. So in Latin America, for example, where you were doing you have done a great job, uh, American missions have had tremendous success evangelistically, but no American mission has established one university, a respectable university. There are several universities coming up, but these are local initiatives, some are supported by Europe. But uh American evangelicalism has not fought the battle for the mind. And uh so ideas have consequences, but though you have to fight that those that those battles for the ideas, and uh that you've done a very good job in the content that you've created, both in terms of books but also courses. Uh, but putting it all together now to uh challenge the dominant uh worldview and narrative, secular, postmodern, vogue, feminist, environmentalist um worldview. Um this is we've all been involved in what Dr. Schaefer called, Francis Schaefer called the Christian manifesto, that a uh uh head-on conflict between a Darwinian secular worldview and biblical worldview has to happen. So the the United States, for example, which influences all of the whole world, uh, is a divided states. Uh United States of America has become divided states of America, and it is divided along the ideas. What is the ultimate reality? And that's the battle that we have been called to fight, and uh that battle is now heading towards a climax. Um, political battles, cultural battles, um, what's happening in Minnesota right now, Venezuela, uh, Iran. It is the specific political, legal, military actions is one thing, but the subs the fundamental uh battles are really the battles for the mind, battles for the ideas.

Scott Allen 14:35

I'd like you to talk a little bit about um Venezuela, Vishal, since you brought that up. Um you know, I've been pondering it myself, I'm sure Darrow and Luke, you have as well. Um you have uh essentially uh, you know, in a country like Venezuela and many other countries as well, but um you've had communism, Marxism, really just a a a criminal kind of gang essentially that has taken over that country uh, you know, for many years now, has looted it. Um you have millions, I think the number is 18 million Venezuelans that have had to flee just in order to survive, to eat, um, you know, just to to basic survival. The people that remain in Venezuela are starving, you know, they have to have their fingers scanned before they can go into grocery stores to buy, you know, the bare necessities, and even that isn't enough. So it's been it's it's been taken over by criminals, by gangs, you know, the Marxist worldview behind it, the atheistic worldview. But even that, you know, it's just it's just greed, you know, and avarice and power. Um now, okay, you know, the United States said enough is enough, you know, at least our president did, and the military went in, took out Maduro, the head guy. Um you know, now now the big question is now what? You know, now, you know, th this is a country, a Vishall, that in Latin America, you know it well. I mean, it's a it's an important country. People it's considered the one of the wealthiest countries. There's an active church, Catholic and evangelical church there that's been there for quite a while, um a well-educated population. Um so we're not talking about a country like Iraq or Afghanistan. But but the question then is how how do you see real change in a country like that? And what specifically can the church do? Because uh pulling out the leader, you know, good, but that's not gonna fix things, you know. What are your thoughts, Vishal? You know, on this very specific case study, if you will.

Speaker 16:46

In the first week of November 2025, that's two months ago, I was invited to teach 300 Christian leaders in Venezuela on nation building. Um this was an invitation from our mutual friend Rodrigo Tapia. Uh, he was organizing it. But he said that the meetings cannot be held within Venezuela, so we'll have to have them in the border town in Colombia. So there will be some Colombians joining uh the incident. Now I couldn't go because I already have prior commitments for traveling. And um uh so um the the fact that a government will not allow pastors to come together and uh consider their role in building a good, just free country um was saddening, sobering. So in in my understanding, uh the Simon Bolivar is considered the liberator of Latin America.

Scott Allen 17:54

Yeah, George Washington of Latin America, so to speak, right.

Revolutions, Bolivar, And Latin Lessons

Speaker 17:58

He was from Venezuela, yes, he was in um Spain when Napoleon, and Napoleon was one of his heroes, when Napoleon invaded Spain 1808, I guess, or 1807, he was there, and he realized that Spain will be engaged with uh France uh for a while, and Spain will not be able to fight back if there is a revolt, a revolution within uh Latin America. So he came back to Venezuela and began uh the revolution which um liberated um northern part of and uh uh South America and uh Central part of Central America, creating Gran Colombia. The Gran Colombia was an idea like United States of South America, which of course fell apart. Now, the important thing was that uh Bolivar was a great military leader, and but as he traveled around on his military campaign, he took his girlfriend with him and he took three books. One was Adam Smith's Wealth of the Nations, the other was Montesquieu's uh Spirit of the Laws, and third was Voltaire's essays on uh on England. Volta had been thrown out of France, he spent a few years in England and looked at what had made England better, greater than France. So the French hated that book and banned it, but uh he he he discusses Anglicanism, Methodism, independent churches, etc., the uh the British Civil War. So the the the basic point, as Simon Bolivar is traveling on his military campaign, interacting with the leaders, future leaders of Latin America, he is not carrying the Bible with him, contrary to the American Revolution. He is taking humanist ideas which came from the Bible, but Adam Smith, um Montesquieu, Wolter stole biblical ideas, grounding them not in God's revelation but in human ability.

Scott Allen 20:20

So the first revolution can can I pause you really quick there, Vishal? Would you put John Locke in that same category?

Speaker 20:26

No, Locke remained biblical uh much better, although secularism later hijacked him as well. But uh but he uh he he he remained more biblical than these people. So anyway, so the first revolution, which ended as a failure, so when Bolivar resigned as the president of Gran Colomb, he wrote in his letter that we revolutionaries have been plowing the ocean. When you plow the land, you get something. When you plow the ocean, you get nothing. We've shed a lot of blood, but we have failed. The humanist revolution in Latin America has failed. So he resigned. And because of the failure of uh humanist revolution, which was inspired by the French Revolution, the Sheikh Gouara, Chavez, um, the communists, the Cuba, uh Venezuela, they look to the Russian Revolution, Marxist revolution. So the second revolution, which continues to spread, uh not all the countries are socialist, but basically socialism has recaptured Brazil, has captured many of these Latin American countries, because they realize that the humanist revolution has failed. Going back to the they're going to the communist revolution, so from French Revolution to the Russian 1997 or the Chinese 1949 revolution, but they have been bigger disasters. So the disaster that you expressed about Venezuela shows how terrible communism has been that you you as you travel around Latin America, you hear about young mothers who have run away to Colombia. They're working as sex workers, prostitutes, to send some money to their mothers to look after their children. This is the terrible state of economy. So your question is how do I see the future? I see President Trump's action through Psalm 2, Revelation 2, 26, 27, that the ask of me and I will make nations your inheritance. You will rule them with a ninth scepter, you will shatter them to pieces like pottery. So this shattering is part of the a vessel that has been corrupted has to be shattered to be remade. So I think what President Trump has done is shattering of the old order. He has not gone as far as uh Obama went in Libya or George Bush went in um Iraq, so he which is wise that you don't create vacuum, which creates more problems. So President Trump has not gone that far, but yet he has uh shattered, and now uh whoever is leading Venezuela has to listen to American concerns and president. But essentially, this is uh not going to succeed unless the church disciples Venezuela.

Scott Allen 24:03

So at that level of ideas that you were talking about, not the atheistic ideas of the enlightenment, but the true biblical idea.

Speaker 24:10

Rebuilding the nation on the word of God. To disciple nation means to shape the soul of a nation, shape the the ideas that govern a nation. And uh this this is what is required in education to disciple this, to educate, to shape a consensus. So there was this um the consensus like secular education in America is built a consensus of which is vogue, which is environmentalist, feminist, uh cancel culture, cancel everything that the biblical ideas had done. And this is what to rebuild, and this is something which President Trump or the military uh cannot do. This is something that the church has to do to disciple the nations. And freedom is a spiritual concept, economic development, as so many of your books are pointing out, is a spiritual family, is a spiritual matter. This will not happen with the help of military or political revolutions.

Scott Allen 25:26

Well, thank you.

Speaker 4 25:27

How does Truthpedia fit into this?

Discipling Nations Beyond Politics

What Makes Truthpedia Different

Speaker 25:33

Thank you. So Truthpedia is an alternative to Wikipedia, um but it is three-in-one educational ecosystem. It will give away high school curriculum for free, to an encyclopedia for free. So all your content will go into encyclopedia and it will be given away for free, so broken up into all the different parts that you have uh already covered. Um, so high school curriculum will be given away for free, um, which means that every home can, every family can be teaching their kids because the teachers are coming online. But uh every church where families cannot do this, church can create educational cooperatives, they can call it anything, they don't have to call it school, uh, because high school education in most countries, you are allowed to have some kind of a private education. So four, five, ten families bringing their families together, one or two people overseeing that, so educational cooperatives, and kids going through the entire high school curriculum. College level, university level curriculum will be a paid curriculum which will sustain the whole thing. So Truthpedia is an attempt to uh create a uh three-in-one educational ecosystem where you have whole of high school curriculum, whole of university curriculum, and uh encyclopedia. Uh so uh in 2025 I published three books. The third book was e-book called Truthpedia: A Revolution in Education. So a pastor in uh Costa Rica has already translated it into Spanish. And he uh this is part of Mark Bilal's group, uh which is uh Global Council of Nations. So their Latin American unit is the strongest. Um so this group is building on what you and Bob Moffat and others have done before uh in teaching in the Spanish and Portuguese speaking Latin America. So they I will within January I will have a meeting with the Christian leaders who have uh Zoom meeting who have read this vision of Truthpedia, so that uh all every church um including Roman Catholic churches, if they want to, if they wish to participate uh in this education revolution, uh we will uh we will make the truthpedia available in in Spanish as well.

Scott Allen 28:32

Vichel, explain more about Truthpedia. We're familiar with Wikipedia, you know, the online encyclopedia. How is it different um from that?

AI, Wikipedia Bias, And Curriculum

Speaker 28:43

Well, the primary difference is uh our unashamed commitment to truth. Um Wikipedia began um with the idea that it will be neutral when there is a controversy on any subject, it will not take a position, it will present both sides. That was their original uh commitment that we will um where say Darwin and Bible disagree, we will uh take no position uh on uh but we will be neutral, we present both sides. But it was already changing, but when President Trump uh won the first election against Hillary Clinton, then uh uh Mrs. Clinton had a very hard time accepting that she lost, and she began to blame uh the forces that were uh controlling the narrative in America, including Wikipedia. So many of her uh senior staff members who were looking, expecting to become secretaries of this, that, and the other to run the US government, they joined Wikimedia Foundation, which owns Wikipedia. So they we consciously gave up the uh idea of neutrality to turn Wikipedia into an instrument of uh mind control. So they believed ideas have consequences, and so Wikipedia is just sticking to the uh evolution creation debate. You look at any article on Wikipedia which is talking about intelligent design, intelligent design itself, or the main scientists who are championing intelligent design, um Darwin Black Black Box or Stephen Meyer, every article more or less begins by saying that Stephen Meyer or this that Michael Beehe or yeah, whoever the intelligent designists. So instead of letting the re you present both sides and let the reader decide whether this is pseudoscience or real science, uh they take a position that this is pseudoscience. So they uh committed themselves to feminism, environmentalism, wokism, uh, etc. And this was so the liberal left, as it is called, um they have taken over Wikipedia and made it an instrument of brainwashing because they understand that ideas have consequences, and if we want to rule, we have to shape the ideas. And they are very they are it's it's of course a global movement, and it since um the I mean the tragedy is that the first people who championed the idea of encyclopedia, Francis Bacon, the father of modern science, John Amos Kamanius, the father of modern education, uh, Kamanias really argued that we need a knowledge bank, and he called it Pan-Sophia, love of all wisdom. Um but because he was writing during the 30-year war in Europe, religious wars, 1618 to 1648, the European Church did not have the strength after those 30 terrible years. Neither the Catholics nor the Protestants had the strength to build encyclopedia. A few attempts were made, but no successful attempt. So French Enlightenment created the first encyclopedia, which was success. And ever since then, encyclopedia movement has become remained a secular uh attempt. So you have in America enormous amount of intellectual energy spent in um Bible seminaries, biblical scholarship, publishing, but there hasn't been the vision in America to create a knowledge bank. The American Church has had the ability, and particularly combined with the European church, the Western Christianity had had the ability to create an encyclopedia which will be an alternative to Wikipedia, but the underlying anti-intellectualism, so you have all the reformed Calvinist thinkers fighting with each other over this, that, and the other, uh, but not coming together to create an encyclopedia, which was a Protestant ideal. Uh and so, but now with our needs in India, needs in Africa, needs in Asia, um, we where our people are being brainwashed by Wikipedia, we've got to bring uh the Christian, we have to harness the available Christian mind to create an encyclopedia, but thanks to AI, we can use encyclopedia to create high school curricula, different curricula of a different state. So, like Daniel and his friends in Babylon have to know everything that the Babylonian scholars are teaching, uh, but they have to know truth, outthink the Babylonian scholars. So that's what we have to do. That uh students who want to get a state-approved high school curriculum, they should know everything that the state wants them to know. And they should know what's wrong with state curriculum and what is the truth. So this right now, as AI is gaining momentum, uh, the intention is to use AI to create uh curriculum and then submit it to Christian scholars, somebody who's already been teaching chemistry for 30 years or biology or whatever, for history or economics or sociology, submit it to them to review. Uh, because unfortunately, AI is dependent upon um the secular leftist, godless, anti-Christian, anti-biblical sources of knowledge. Okay.

Scott Allen 35:47

Well, just on that note, Vishal, I just read recently that I I forget the percentage, but it was a very high percentage of all that you, you know, when you do a query in AI and it goes out and it combs across the internet and comes back and collates in a response. A very high percent of that is coming from Wikipedia and self.

Luke Allen 36:08

And I just looked this up to make sure you're um at least on ChatGBT, uh Wikipedia is one of its primary sources, and it won't cite Wikipedia when it sources it. It'll just say it as if it's reality or a fact.

Scott Allen 36:22

As if it's reality, and if you're right that Wikipedia has become um essentially weaponized as a form of propaganda, then what that means is that AI, right, has become weaponized as a form of propaganda. That's not the problem with AI.

Training Civil Servants And Nation Builders

Speaker 36:40

That's the problem with the fact that uh the church, the global body of Christ, has not created an intellectual alternative knowledge bank. So if um if we so uh starting point for us is because we are still operating without any funding, is that um in March, end of March, we will launch a uh course on nation building in India, targeting about a thousand students. Technology has been built up and donated to us. Um the and that is the uh Truthpedia technology has been built up. So now we have to put the content into it, and we are starting with a course on nation building. So we will use a lot of the material that you have produced um in that, and many others our friends have been for 50 years. The Christians have been working on uh on this area, many different Christians. Um so we use that material. This will equip students uh to enter into competitive exams in India to become civil servants, uh police officers. This is one way of countering persecution, because we the police are in deliberately knowing that an evangelist or a pastor is innocent, arresting him, throwing him in jail because the police is under political pressure. So unless you have godly police officers, godly uh district uh magistrates, uh the persecution will continue under wicked politicians. So uh civil service, so building a whole cadre, so militant Hindus for hundred years they have been training a cadre uh to govern India, and the church has been training pastors, missionaries, evangelists, musicians, singers, and the church has done a pretty good job at that, but the church has not been training kings and priests. We've been training priests, but this is the first point that I made: the kingship of Christ, the kingship of all believers, that you have to take his burden, the governance is upon his shoulders. That's his yoke, and we have to take his yoke for the sake of the poor, the oppressed, the downtrodden, uh, which will continue to remain downtrodden, say in India, because of Hinduism. Hinduism made them Dalits, untouchables, low-cast. And if they have to be lifted up, the burden of governance has to be taken uh uh by Christians upon their shoulders. So our course will uh equip students to compete uh in uh these competitive exams. It's called UPSC, Union Public Service Commission. This whole idea developed out of the Clapham sect in um London, outside of London, where the the modern idea of civil services is part of uh Reformation began in Germany uh as one of the results of the Reformation. From Germany it went to England, and from England was where during the Victorian era where the concept of civil services was refined and then it came to India. So but so the evangelicals built the Indian civil services like William Kerry three days a week, he was teaching in a college uh created to train civil servants. So we were always told, oh, that Sirampur mission, William Kerry's mission, published Bibles in 38 or 40 languages, but nobody told us that most of those Bibles were actually translated in a college created for civil servants. So East India Company had hired pundits, experts in different languages, to work with missionaries to teach language to British civil servants who were going to be governing British India. And they needed to learn local languages, but local language dialects, that is, but the dialects had no literature. So the Bible became, in most of the dialects, the first book to be published. So it was a college training civil servants where William Carey is teaching three days a week, working with missionaries and pundits to translate the Bible into different languages, and then they are being printed in Sidampur Mission Press. So the Bible created India's civil services give, for the first time in Indian history, uh, a relatively corruption-free government to India, because the civil servants were trained by Biblical Worldview. But then in the 20th century, uh evangelical Christianity withdrew from all of this. We began training only missionaries and pastors and musicians. We were not training rulers. Um whereas I keep emphasizing that sonship means kingship if your father is a king. If your king's son, you are a king, and the responsibility of governing is upon you. So the prodigal son, when he returns to the father, he goes out to manage his father's estate. He works. So we this will begin in India, but we will shape that course so students will know everything that the government wants a civil servant to know. But they will know more, which the government sources are not bothered with. So this would become a BA or an MA in nation building, which is what Venezuela needs, which is what Colombia needs, which is what Honduras and all of these countries need. So we will bring that curriculum quickly, and AI will help in adapting it to the local conditions. So the history of Colombia, for example, will not be taught in India, but will be taught in Colombia. And uh but Christian experts would be needed to help us refine what the course that is created with the help of AI. So the courses can be created very quickly with the help of AI. Uh you can ask AI, um summarize in 5,000 words Darrow's Miller teaching on nurturing uh nations. But then, since Darrow is available, it goes back to him to refine it, or someone who knows it and knows his teaching. So so so AI. Gives in five minutes or less, uh, summarizes Daromula's teaching on nurturing nations, but uh it has to be then checked and refined by Christian experts. And that goes into truth media.

Language, Truth, And Post-Truth West

Darrow Miller 44:17

Have you are you familiar with John Daniel Davidson? Do you know him? No. He's a writer at uh The Federalist, and I just finished reading his book last night, Pagan America,

Speaker 4 44:30

and he's basically arguing when you throw out uh a biblical worldview, what you're left with is paganism, and that it was uh Jews and Christians and a biblical worldview that transformed a pagan world into Western civilization. So it's the idea, you know, part of it is that ideas have consequences, part of it is the battle is in the area of ideas. But he has written a chapter near the end of the book called AI and Digital Nacromancy. And he is talking about transcendent evil because of paganism, um, transcendent evil using AI. In other words, uh there's a portal between the transcendent world and the mechanistic world of AI. And AI is producing, as when I've used it and I've asked it questions, and I said this to Luke and Scott, it's almost like I'm talking to a human being. And I'm not. But I forget I'm not. And what uh Davidson is arguing is that there is the reality, it's not just evil, it's demonic. And that it's the demonic is invading the world using AI.

Speaker 46:13

Yeah. Well, um yesterday I received a manuscript from England on reviving Carl Jung, or Jung's revival, something like that. Uh, and he, Mike Taylor, who has written it, he is uh saying the same thing about uh Carl Jung. That he was uh and and Carl Jung, I I've read enough of Carl Jung to know that he keeps talking about uh the evil forces from within speaking to him. Good forces speaking, evil forces speaking. And so so Mike Taylor's position is that Carl Jung was in fact communicating with the demonic supernatural, supernatural. I haven't read the whole book, I just got it yesterday, his manuscript. But um so but the the I I read the synopsis before asking him for the full manuscript. So so I would not be, I would not dismiss Davidson's thesis that there is a supernatural dimension, uh, evil dimension, because uh that is what the Bible very clearly says, that Satan is out to deceive the nations. The church is created to disciple nations, Satan is out to deceive the nations. And um whether Satan can use uh human beings or speak to human beings is um so behind AI is are human beings, but are is there satanic deception? So so one of the co-founders, as you know, of Wikipedia was Larry Sanger. So Larry and I have been interacting and he's been reading my books. So he he is he he became a Christian gradually on his testimony of his conversion is very powerful, very philosophical, very carefully crafted. He's written it over years, which is available online. So he he's offered serious critique of um Wikipedia, but in the overall, to assume that Satan is using universities and Wikipedia and high school to deceive whole nations with wrong ideas, false ideas, is part of biblical worldview. And therefore, we need Holy the Holy Spirit to bear witness to the truth.

Partnering, Next Steps, And How To Help

Scott Allen 49:03

Yeah, I think I think you're you're getting at something that um I'm intrigued by. I remember I exchanged emails a few years ago with Jonathan, the famous psychologist Jonathan Haidt, um, and um I was really honored that we were engaging. And he was at that time really critiquing the university because he said the university, a New York university where he was teaching, and of course all the universities in the West, all the major universities, had become factories of ideological indoctrination. They were no longer pursuing the truth, and he talked a lot about truth, and we need to get back to the truth and not just pushing this woke neo-Marxist ideology on students. And he said, you know, he he likened Christian universities, he mentioned Wheaton specifically to schools that had pursued a kind of a non-truth, uh ideologically bent kind of approach. And um, you know, when we were exchanging emails and he mentioned Wheaton, I said, no, schools historically like Wheaton have pursued the truth. Uh Harvard, you know, uh Veritas, right? They were that they were they were built around the pursuit of truth because of Christianity, you know, and um that was kind of a new thought for him. You know, he he would all he was, I think he was always thinking that, you know, I don't know, he was somehow separating truth from from Christianity. And uh this idea that no, the the that the pursuit of truth is a Christian idea because it requires, you know, I think it was uh who was it? It was uh Jordan Peterson who said, yeah, that you know, essentially truth is a fruit of a biblical worldview. You wouldn't even have the concept apart from the Bible of truth. Everything becomes relative.

Speaker 50:48

Yes. So my ebook, which is available for free, called Truthpedia, a revolution in education. Uh it's not printed yet, but we decided to launch it anyway. Um adding to it a treatise on truth. A treatise on truth, because the West has become post-truth because truth is a matter of spirit. It's not a matter of like Immanuel Kant with his books, Critique of Pure Reason, Critique of Practical Reason, uh, 1781, 1788. He demolished the idea that human reason can know the truth. David Hume and others had begun to demolish Descartes' rationalism, that reason can know the truth, but finishing touches were given by Immanuel Kant, from which Arthur Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Freud, uh, they built their truthless worldviews. When truth is dead, power takes over. And that's of course what is happening with um with Donald Trump, that uh power is taking over because truth has become uh unknowable. Human mind cannot know. Truth is only a story that some people tell to manipulate, we tell to manipulate each other. That's the perspective of post-truth age. So then David Hume himself, the Scottish philosopher, proposed that truth can be known through empirical observation, our senses. And John Locke sort of followed that empiricism, that truth is not known through logic rationalism, but through empirical, our senses, what we see, what we hear, what we uh but David Hume understood that we don't see, I don't see your soul, I don't see my own soul, I don't hear my soul. So uh our senses cannot tell us whether the soul exists, whether self exists, it can much less whether God exists. That's not part of empirical observation. So the um idea that the human being beginning with himself, whether through reliance on his logic, which is what Aristotle had done, Aquinas had done, and Descartes had done, whether you rely on your own logic or you rely on your empirical observations, you cannot know the truth. So the the the Western society, we hold these truths to be sacred or self-evident. That assumption that the human mind can know the truth is gone. And that's where to reassert that we can know the truth because there is someone who knows and has spoken, and he has given us the gift of language. So, like parents teach speaking language to the children, so they can teach children um everything the child knows. Parents can teach, older siblings can teach, teachers can teach, the world can teach through the language. So God gave us the gift of language because He wanted to teach, He wanted us to explore truth, that we've got to go and name the animals, the what's the difference between a horse and a donkey and a zebra? We've got to find out and we have got to name. So we need to observe, learn, but also use the language and then teach through it's through the language that we teach the difference between a horse and a donkey, or a fox and a wolf and a dog to our children to each other. So truth can be known because language is not a product of evolutionary accident, but is a it's a gift of the eternal word. In the beginning was the word, the word was with God, the word was God. With his word, he created the universe, he made us in his image to know uh so that he could teach us the truth, and he gives us his spirit to lead us into all truth. So truth is a matter of spirit. This would be um, but why did the Western civilization give up truth, including evangelical movement gave up truth? Uh this is part of a treatise on um underlying truthpedia.

Scott Allen 55:53

I see. Yeah, you would almost have to have these as kind of like your foundation for the whole project, it seems to me. Some of these, yeah. Well, Vishal, this has been really fascinating. I've been really anxious to talk to you and learn more about what you're working on with Truth the Pedia. And I knew you've been working for many years now on uh curriculum, schools, education for the purpose of discipling nations. And so I'm always thrilled to hear how things are progressing and the very practical kind of nature of the work that you're doing. It's it's it's really wonderful.

Speaker 56:23

Well, thank you. But this will need all the scholarship and thought that you have put in, like your own content on justice, biblical justice and um social justice. People are confused because social justice is all that is being talked about. The biblical justice isn't taught. So this should all of this needs to go into Truthpedia. Yeah. Um, and we will begin with a bachelor's level program. Um the experimental phase hopefully will begin in March in India.

Scott Allen 57:00

There seems to me a parallel between what you're trying to do with Truthpedia and and what um uh uh the great Noah Webster was trying to do with his 1828 dictionary of the American language, you know, root, truth, root definitions, and language in the scriptures, in the source of truth, um, as a foundation for for all truth. So Vishal, if people want to learn more about what you're doing or find out how they might be involved in it, what's a good way for them to explore this further?

Speaker 57:32

We have two websites. One is called revelation movement.com. Revelation movement, one word. The other is third educationrevolution.com.

Scott Allen 57:42

Perfect.

Speaker 57:42

Thirdeducationrevolution.com. So we are still operating without funding, without uh full-time staff. So these are not up to date uh always things, so they're a little behind. But the Lord is raising a team of volunteers which who are helping, it's like technology has been created by a group called Ruatech, it's an Australian company based in India. Um they've they they have created and donated the um technology platform, which is which is very significant because when the Grand Canyon University built its online program, it spent 400 million dollars in building technology. Same thing can now probably be built in ten million dollars. But we've been uh blessed by this group giving it uh free. They see it as their five loaves and two fish that the Lord can use to multiply and so the intellectual content which uh uh DNA has built up and accumulated, Truthpedia is a means of taking it to the grassroots.

Scott Allen 59:09

Wonderful. Well, listen, it and it's also a way of us continuing to work together, which would be wonderful, V shell. Yes. Um and I think it's I think it's profound. You said that you're in touch with the the creator, uh one of the creators of Wikipedia. What's his name? Um I mean he's been yeah, he's been in the news um about how he he he's been open about how Wikipedia that he loves, he helped to create it, has been corrupted. And you know, I did hear that he had become a Christian. I think that's quite profound that you guys are in touch uh right now.

Speaker 59:40

So yeah, you know, he's of course there are many other highly intelligent and educated people who have come to Christ, but the special thing about him is that he's written detailed uh argument of why he became a Christian, which is very very philosophical. It's like um the the previous generation, the man who created the great books curriculum in Chicago. Um what's his name? He was considered America's greatest philosopher of the 20th century.

Scott Allen 1:00:19

His name's on the tip of my tongue. I can't I can't think of it. Yeah.

Speaker 1:00:22

Yeah, he he he was uh he he was converted. Um someone who really studied all the wisdom of Western civilization in creating the great books curriculum, the Encyclopedia Britannica published. So Larry Sanger is not at that level, but his written testimony is um better than almost anything that we have at an intellectual level of why he became a Christian.

Scott Allen 1:00:55

Okay. As a lot of I'll have to go back and look at that, yeah.

Speaker 1:00:59

Yes. Well, I can send it to you. It's easily available online.

Scott Allen 1:01:03

Thanks, Vishal. Luke, any questions that you have? We need to wrap up. It's been a great discussion and just a great time to catch up with Vishal.

Luke Allen 1:01:11

So Yeah, this has been really interesting to listen into. Um I just think this is so important. I I'm really excited to watch this play out. Um I keep thinking of the quote by the French philosopher, uh Zach Elul, I can't ever say his last name, Elul. Jacques Elul? Yeah. When he said to reform a society, one must begin by reforming the way humans think and the way we speak. And this is this is a real effort to reform the way we think and and to reform it into truth. And I just think about like we were talking about the age of AI that we're entering. I think in the age of AI, if truth was currency, its value is about to skyrocket because uh we're just gonna be overwhelmed by a chaos, a cracophony of so many competing voices, of which you know, truth is gonna be a lot harder to find. And people that know the truth and speak the truth are gonna become increasingly valuable and increasingly sought out. Uh, so just giving this as a resource for people around the world is offering such value in a time where its value is just uh yeah, really going up. So I think this is exciting to watch. And as long as it's really uh it sounds like you are doing this, being very careful of mooring it in the truth. Um, this is gonna be just such a helpful resource at this time. So excited to watch it play out.

Speaker 1:02:28

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for organizing this podcast.

Luke Allen 1:02:32

Yeah, I always enjoy these conversations.

Scott Allen 1:02:34

Well, thank you for all you're doing, Vishnu. We'll keep you in our prayers and uh just keep up the good work, keep keep pushing and um keep being a leader of our movement. And uh, we're just so grateful for you.

Speaker 1:02:44

Thank you. God bless you. Thank you.