Ideas Have Consequences
Worldviews shape communities, influence politics, steer economics, set social norms, and ultimately affect the well-being of both your life and your nation. Obedience to the Great Commission involves replacing false ideas with biblical truth. Together with the help of friends, our mission is to demonstrate that only biblical truth leads to flourishing lives, families, societies, and nations. This show explores the intersection of faith and culture, aiming to address pressing societal issues through a biblical lens. Ideas Have Consequences is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance.
Ideas Have Consequences
Why America’s Christian Leaders Are Failing: Stockholm Syndrome Christianity | Dr. John West
Episode Summary:
Why are so many Christian leaders thinking like the culture instead of shaping it?
This week, we sit down with Dr. John West, Vice President of the Discovery Institute, to unpack his vitally important new book, Stockholm Syndrome Christianity, and the subtle ways secular worldviews have infiltrated the Church. We explore why a mind-first universe matters, how cultural approval dilutes biblical truth, and what a truly holistic, biblical response to homelessness and poverty requires.
West also issues a needed challenge: Christians must develop deep discernment in an age drowning in information. He ends with a hopeful reminder that the future of the Church is far brighter than it seems.
Who is Disciple Nations Alliance (DNA)? Since 1997, DNA’s mission has been to equip followers of Jesus around the globe with a biblical worldview, empowering them to build flourishing families, communities, and nations. 👉 https://disciplenations.org/
🎙️Featured Speaker:
Dr. John West is Vice President of the Discovery Institute in Seattle and co-founder of its Center for Science and Culture. An award-winning author and filmmaker, he has written or edited thirteen books and directed a dozen documentaries. Formerly Chair of the Department of Political Science and Geography at Seattle Pacific University, he holds a PhD in Government from Claremont Graduate University.
📌 Recommended Links
👉 The Book: Stockholm Syndrome Christianity | How Our Christian Leaders Are Failing — And What We Can Do About It
👉 Learn more about Dr. West: John G. West | Political Scientist and Cultural Critic
👉 Discovery Institute: Discovery Institute | Public policy think tank
👉 Fix Homelessness: Fix Homelessness | Discovery Institute
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📩 Ask us anything: info@disciplenations.org
Ultimately, the reason I'm optimistic is not because of us fallible humans, it's because God is in charge. That all God calls us to be is faithful, not successful. God will take care of success.
Luke Allen:Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of Ideas Have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. As Christians, our mission is to spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. Amen to that. However, our mission also involves working to transform our cultures so that they increasingly reflect the truth, goodness, and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected this second part of her mission, and today many Christians are having little influence on their surrounding cultures, which is exactly what we talked about on this episode. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God. Hey guys, my name is Luke Allen, and I am joined today by my dad, Scott Allen. And during the upcoming interview uh with a special guest today, we are also joined by the one and only Dwight Vogt, who came back to join us today, which is always awesome to have him on the show. Before we give you guys a quick idea of what this uh what we covered in this episode, I just want to really thank you guys for tuning in to this podcast, Ideas Have Consequences. We really appreciate each and every one of you guys who spend the time each week to join us here on the show. I just want to give a shout out to some of our most faithful listeners. Um, at least we don't know who you guys are, but we know where you guys are. So I want to read off a couple of our top cities who listen to this podcast and appreciate all you guys tuning in from those cities, and then of course, all the rest of you as well, who I don't have time to announce. But everyone coming to us from Phoenix, Arizona, we really appreciate you guys, and we are thankful that you guys join us so faithfully here on the show. Portland, Oregon, you are our number two most listened to city for the last five episodes. So thank you also for tuning in. Wichita, Kansas, Sao Paulo, Brazil, Accra in where's Accra, Dead? Ghana. Ghana. Thank you for listening. Our friends from Ghana. That that that might be you, Chris Ampedou, or some of your friends. Uh Lansing, Michigan, Dallas, Texas. Thanks for listening. Bend, Oregon. Let's go, Bend. Uh Lusaka. Where's that one, Dad? I got one of these. Lusaka, I think, is Angola. So we've got our African listeners. Lusaka, Zambia.
Scott Allen:Oh, Zambia. Zambia.
Luke Allen:Zambia is one of our most beautiful listen to uh countries, probably thanks to Linux California. Right. Yeah. Nairobi, Kenya, thank you for tuning in so faithfully. Denver, Colorado, and Toronto, Ontario. That's just to name a couple of the cities that are tuning in. So thanks, thanks again, guys, for uh for listening to the show. We really appreciate you, and we hope that this show is helpful for you. Uh as far as today's episode goes, we really enjoyed this recording that we're gonna hop into in a second. But just to give you an idea of where we head in this episode, Dad, would you mind giving people a quick summary?
Scott Allen:Sure. Yeah, we we had on um John West of the Discovery Institute today, and I'll introduce him uh more when we get into the episode. But uh it was a wide-ranging discussion, but the probably the common denominator was just the desire to see Christians be very intentional in terms of functioning intentionally and courageously from a biblical worldview across a wide variety of uh areas um uh and um spheres of society. We touched on issues of poverty and um psychology and science and uh any number of of topics like that, but it really kept coming down to the need for Christians and Christian leaders, leaders of our institutions, to be courageous, to be faithful, and not to just go along and drift along with the culture, which is the subject of John's book that we're going to to highlight here in the episode.
Luke Allen:Yeah, this was an excellent episode. You guys aren't gonna want to miss this one with Dr. John West uh from the Discovery Institute. Uh we really we really hit on the heart of our mission here on ideas have consequences, is these ideas have consequences. True ideas have consequences that bring about health, healing, and flourishing to any community that they are um imbibed in. And then on the alternate, any ideas that are not uh based in God and his word and in truth are always gonna hurt people. So this this is just really at the heart of our mission here on this podcast. So without further ado, uh let's hop into the recording with Dr. John West.
Scott Allen:Well, it's great to be back on with another podcast and uh really excited today, thrilled in fact to have with us uh uh a new guest, uh Dr. John West. Uh Dr. West is the vice president and senior fellow at the Discovery Institute in Seattle, Washington. And he serves as the managing director of the Institute's Center for Science and Culture with uh philosopher of science Steven Meyer. Uh he uh is uh currently examining the impact of science and scientism on public policy and culture. Um he formerly was a professor, associate professor of political science at uh Seattle Pacific University up in up in Seattle as well. And he has written or edited 13 books, including the book that we're gonna talk about today, his most recent book. It's called Stockholm Syndrome Christianity. Um Dr. West, thank you so much for being with us. It's great to have you. We're really excited.
Speaker:Scott and crew, it's great to be here. Thank you for having me.
Scott Allen:Well, before we jump into the book, I I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about the Discovery Institute for our listeners that may not be familiar with that work, uh uh kind of what what it is and how it came to be and what you're involved in.
Speaker:Sure. So Discovery Institute is known as a think tank, really an education and research organization. So we do sponsor people, write books uh to get out information. We create films sort of to get out the ideas of the public, but it's sort of like this think tank. And probably our most famous thing that we do, you've you've actually mentioned it's the Center for Science and Culture, which I co-founded with Steve Meyer back in the mid to late 1990s, and that is a collection of scientists, philosophers, theologians who think that there's demonstrable evidence of design and purpose in nature. So we're not just the products of blind, purposeless processes, and more than that, uh, what we have evidence in nature that actually shows otherwise. So it's not just that, well, we have wish fulfillment that you know nature was created by God. No, the actual facts and data of science point in the direction of a creator. And so that's been going now for I guess in the coming year will be our 30th year, and there's been a lot of exciting things happen for that. But discovery overall is a larger think tank. So we have programs on economics, on on technology and the challenges of artificial intelligence, on bioethics and you know human exceptionalism. Wesley J. Smith, who's a major sort of pro-life uh lawyer, uh uh helps run that. And I'd say the thing that ties it together is that we believe in a mind-first view of the universe. So when it comes to biology, chemistry, nature, and creation, before you had the matter, you had to have the mind. The mind conceiving of it, the art, the master artist, not just a master engineer, the master artist, the the loving God basically who created us. But that's similar, actually, we think, in our program on economics, which is run by a guy named George Gilder, who people are interested in economics. I think is probably know his name from a lot of books that he wrote. But he has a mind first view of economics. So many people, uh, even people who say who support things like free market economics, they think of it as, oh, it's just competition or it's just dog eat dog and or it's just about money. No, properly considered, good economics is mind first of the, you know, it takes creativity. And I'd also say I think it takes morality and self-sacrifice for your economy really to work. But so it's mind first in that. And treating people are our program on human exceptionalism. Every human is created an image of God, and that should dictate our social policies and how we deal with them. And so I know uh your organization is dealt dealing you know a lot around the world with uh various issues, and certainly development is an issue around the world here in the United States. And I talk about some of this in my book in one of the chapters, you know, we have so many social problems and problems with poverty, but I think, as we'll discuss, you know, there are many Christians who are a bit embarrassed by the Christian view that it's not just about throwing material things at people. That's not usually going to solve their deepest problems. Material things are important, it's important that people are fed, that people uh have medical care. All that's true. But as Christians, we know that the biggest disconnect we have actually is our relationship with God or lack thereof. And and that has a whole set of other issues. And so as Christians, in our own efforts you know, in the world, that should be reflected. Now, I should say Discovery Institute is not uh uh explicitly a Christian organization. Most of us involved are Christians, most are are I'd say evangelicals, uh, but we have Catholics, we have Eastern Orthodox, we have Jewish people who are involved on in some of our programs. So Discovery overall is not an explicitly Christian, but I'd say our Center for Science and Culture is most of us uh you know who work there happen to be. And I think it goes along with the biblical worldview very much. In the area, I think, what Christians would call general revelation. We can't know everything about the world uh through just observing the world, but we can know some things. And God certainly has written things on our hearts and he's also given us reason. And you know, I the the understanding of the world certainly does not replace the Bible, and there are many things we can only know through the Bible, but uh God is the as the creator of the universe and as the creator of us, there are these general revelation that Christians down through the ages, going back to St. Paul, have always accepted. And so I'd say if you want to understand where we're located and sort of our particular mission, is in that area of what people call general revelation. Now, I'm saying that, but we're gonna get into a book that is more specific than that because this reflects a lot of my own interest. And so the Stockholm Syndrome Christianity, which we'll get to, is is very much explicitly Christian in the things she's talking about.
Scott Allen:Well good, yeah. Uh, you know, at some point it would be good to explore for just really quickly on the Discovery Institute. Who was the founder of that?
Speaker:Yeah, so the founder was uh Bruce Chapman, and he was uh an official in the Reagan administration, and before that, for people here in the Pacific Northwest, he was Washington State Secretary of State, and then even served on the Seattle City Council and had his own interesting uh journey uh to faith. Uh and he uh so he founded, he's the main founder. He actually had his friend George Gilder help him as a George Gilder was there at the brainchild, okay. It was it was the brainchild of Bruce Chapman and George Gilder, and then I came along within one or two years, and then when I was there was when we learned about Steve Meyer and invited him over, and then Steve and I sort of jointly proposed and founded the Center for Science and Culture. That was several years into Discovery Institute. Some people think that that's the Center for Science and Culture is what started Discovery Institute. Actually, not, it it came a little bit later, but it has been there for nearly 30 years.
Scott Allen:So although it's probably what you're most well known for, would you say?
Speaker:Yes, I I think that's true. That that, but although the ear in earlier years the works of George Gilder, but yes, uh definitely we're we're most well known for our work on intelligent design.
Scott Allen:Your your mind first, it reminds me, Dwight, you you often say your favorite verse in the Bible is Genesis 1.1. In the beginning, God you know created the heavens and the earth. And it's the opening line of a story. Any author will tell you the most important sentence in any novel is the very first sentence because it sets the trajectory for everything that follows. And um the narrative of the West, uh, since Darwin has been in the beginning, you know, was matter, you know, combining combining randomly by chance. I mean, those those are very different opening lines that lead to very different kinds of societies, as you know. Yeah. Go ahead, Dr. West.
Speaker:No, you're exactly right. And the certainly the the biblical view, uh, the Western monotheistic view is a mind first, that you have the creator, you have what he's envisioning and his desires, and then instantiated into the world. And that gives us purpose. That means that we're not just an accident of history. Uh you might feel that way, but you're not changing.
Scott Allen:And you know, and this is the but the power of the the Darwinian paradigm is that it it wasn't just about evolution or biology, it shaped the entire culture in so many ways, you know, because it created an opening narrative for a whole different story, as you said. Yeah.
Speaker:And it's a mind last, which means that mind is just sort of an epiphenomenon of that that was just created through this ungodly process. And and there's no reason to even think that our minds are built to try to.
Scott Allen:Yeah, mind is just a complete mystery, isn't it? Like there still isn't quite any clarity on why we we have, or even if the mind exists. But hey, uh we could we could talk about that subject all our podcast. I do want to kind of get into the book.
unknown:Sure.
Scott Allen:Um let's let's let's go to that. Stockholm Syndrome Christianity. This is a book I have a lot of interest in. Our listeners know that um uh this is an area that I explored with my book uh from 2020 called Why Social Justice Is Not Biblical Justice, and just looking at this phenomenon in the United States and in the church of this foreign idea, uh foreign to Christians, anyways. It had its roots in Marxism and critical theory, this whole concept of social justice, coming into the church full force, uh into the culture, into the broader culture, and then of course into the church, um, and then coming into uh I would say particularly the leadership of the church, our institutions, our universities, really coming in, capturing in many ways, and me just observing this, going, what in the world is going on? Whoa, what you know, these are our gatekeepers and our shepherds, and how come nobody is like defending true biblical justice here? I felt like the last person that should do that, but um that's what led me to write the book. But I just observed the same thing you were observing about what was happening with the leadership of the evangelical movement. And uh tell us a little bit more about the book and why you wrote it, your approach to this, Dr. West. What what were you looking at and what was your own experience with this?
Luke Allen:Yeah, and also would you mind explaining the title for me? I as a younger person, I'm not familiar with the I wasn't familiar with the phrase.
Speaker:So I know I know I certainly understand that. So um, you know, the the kernel of this is my growing recognition after decades in public life and 12 years in acad in Christian academia and then working in many ways in the parachurch field with the work at Discovery Institute, of seeing um just how much many Christian leaders, sadly to say, are looking more like the world than the Bible, and realizing that you know, theologically conservative Christians, and I would count myself as one of those, we tend to say, oh, it's the big bad atheists, or it's the big bad progressives, or all the agnostics, they're you know, pushing our nation into the sewer. And I don't discount that, by the way. But I came to the conclusion that unfortunately there are a lot of personally devout Christian leaders in academia, in media, in government, in you know the arts, who are basically talking in the same way and have basically adopted the talking points of these secularists, and that if we want to be salt and light, which the the church is called to be, uh, and we want a better outcome, we probably need to get our own house in order uh first. I mean, not that we shouldn't be doing other things too, but I mean that we really if within the church we're having indistinct voice. And if rather than what what I often have seen with people that I've known uh who again they're personally devout, but they're rather than being salt and light to the culture and sort of a missionary to the culture, they're a missionary from the culture to their fellow Christians. And so that that so that sort of started my journey of thinking about this. And I was praying one particular day, and I often do walks when I'm doing more extended prayer, and it hit me that this idea of Stockholm Syndrome, which I will now explain, hit me as that was describing what I had been seeing. So the Stockholm Syndrome goes back to an infamous robbery back uh in the early 1970s, so it's ancient history, uh, in Stockholm, Sweden. So hence Stockholm Syndrome, and where some bank robbers held some people hostage in a bank. Of course, that's happened before, and they ultimately were released, so fortunately they weren't killed. But something strange happened. Um, within of after a few days of being held hostage, and then before they were released, many of the hostages, according to account, started to feel grateful to the people who took them hostage. They thought they were nice young men. They they started to bond with them and actually defend them in a way against the police. And so a psychologist looking at this afterwards, and I and I should say I'm not a psychologist, I'm not really using this as a technical psychological diagnosis, very controversial in psychology. But but what this one psychologist said, that you know, these people were were ended up bonding with their captors. And uh, regardless of what you think about that as a psychological diagnosis, I think that really hit me of explaining what I was seeing. So these are not just Christians who, oh, they're just being cowardly or they're just sellouts, they're just catering to the world because you know they want to get ahead. No, these were devout Christians who thought they were standing for the truth. But the truth they're standing for really isn't biblical truth. Because, and and and here's how to explain it most Christians who are in leadership positions, whether it be in the media or in the government or academia or even the church, you spend a lot of your life, first of all, going through grad school, seminaries, and other places where often you are learning from and you are in a way beholden to people who are hostile to Christianity. Now, maybe they're personally nice people, but what I'm meaning is their worldview is incompatible with Christianity. And and then when you get into your, especially if you're in the media or government, and then you get into your career, let alone if you're in academia, then you're surrounded by many colleagues who are also hostile to that. And so I would say that just as someone, you know, in the Stockholm syndrome, in those people in the bank robberies, or or sometimes this applies to people who have been abused, where they end up in a strange way identifying with their abuser, the people that I was saying, I said, something clicked. I said, that explains what I'm seeing. That people who spent so much time learning from and being surrounded by people whose worldviews were really incompatible with Christianity, even if they were personally nice people, for some Christians that ends up rubbing off and they end up adopting that as their own talking points and worldview. And so, and that sort of guides them what they think is true. And so they end up talking the same way as the secularists. And but the thing is when they do that, they think they're being courageous and they're standing for truth among their fellow Christians. And I think they're deluded by that. But I I think, you know, so that's where I that's why I gravitated towards calling Stockholm Syndrome Christianity, because it's it's you know, if people want a simple way of understanding it, it's just it's when Christians end up both consciously and unconsciously adopting the worldview that is anything but Christian, but they internalize it and then they start acting out with it, you know.
Scott Allen:That's really interesting. I I'd like to uh kind of share with you, if you don't mind, Dr. West, kind of my own analysis on why this has happened. I've thought a lot about it. Uh not in the way that you are right there. I think it's fascinating. And I I I I think what your thesis is there, the Stockholm Syndrome thesis is a fascinating one. Let me just share briefly kind of my own analysis, and I'll try to do this very briefly. Um because I've wondered the same thing. And I uh, you know, it's I've had actually, like you, kind of painful personal experience with this as well. Um but uh first of all, I've I've thought, you know, I think what the root of this is is it's a desire for acceptance and praise by powerful people in the culture, right? You know, that's always nice to have. Um I think that was aided in some ways by uh Tim Keller, you know, who had a huge influence on the evangelical church and what has been called his third-way kind of approach to evangelism, which put an emphasis on, you know, we need to cozy up to people that are in um kind of elite culture. That's the best way to to evangelize and to change the culture is from the top down. And and you do that in a very non-threatening, non-political way that avoids culture war issues and being nice and non-threatening. And um, you know, uh I always think of Francis Collins, right? You know, when I when I talk this way, you know, he had that position of elite um power uh at the National Institute of Health. Um and he cosied up to the dominant worldview, particularly on the issue of evolution, right? He's the most famous theistic evolutionist, right? You know, so he took that approach, but you know, always talked about how he was a devout Christian and uh wanted to, you know, let other people know that he was a devout Christian. Uh so those two things kind of working together. And then, of course, Megan Basham's famous book, um, where she come al came along and said, Yeah, there's something else going on here too. You've got a lot of money uh coming in from foundations like Tides and Soros and Rockefeller for the express purpose of trying to influence evangelical leaders politically, because this has been a big voting block for conservatives and Republicans if we can peel off some of that by trying to influence them through grants and money. Um, you know, the Shepherd's for Sale idea. I think that uh that's true as well. And I think an another thing, this was the first thought I had, if I could just add another one quickly, is the um I I think a lot about biblical worldview, you know, and just how the you know the Bible is a comprehensive story. It makes sense of the whole, it touches everything, science and business and philosophy and every area of life. Um I I was surprised on the issue of justice. How um how can I say it? I don't want to sound disparaging, but uh the a lot of really smart, really well-trained Christians weren't thinking from a biblical worldview on this specific issue of justice. They didn't know enough about what the Bible teaches about justice, which it teaches a lot, but they didn't know enough about it apparently that they weren't able to see that what was coming in using that word justice, social justice, was a counterfeit. This is not biblical justice. They said it was biblical, they kind of passed it off to their flocks and congregations and other people as true, genuine biblical justice. But I thought this is I'm surprised that they don't see the difference. There's a clear difference. They're not similar, they're quite different. Biblical justice, social justice. So to me it was almost a lack of knowledge. And that was surprising. And maybe I thought maybe it's because they just aren't used to thinking in terms of biblical worldview. I I'm I'm still not quite sure. But uh and then, you know, I would say maybe a last one is just Trump derangement syndrome. I've noticed that that that that had quite an influence on people, uh, you know, Christian leaders as well, for whatever reason. That one still remains a bit of a mystery to me. Any reaction to my kind of my several-fold analysis here? Because you're adding something new to it, which is the Stockholm Syndrome kind of analysis to it.
Speaker:So I I I do have something to share on that. First of all, I agree with all the things you identified, sort of the four things, I actually agree those have all played the role, and I think that especially if you're talking about in the last 10 to 20 years, that's true. But I guess but let me take each of those. So it's certainly true, and I talk about it in the book, that our urge for acceptance, you know, that goes back to the early church and you know, and in the first centuries of the church. And so that is always there. The reason why I don't think that's enough is to really explain some of the deepest things is that, I mean, in one sense, it's it's hard to disentangle, but let's let me put it this way in people's own self-understanding, in Francis Collins' own self-understanding and in Tim Keller's own self-understanding, they think they're willing to sacrifice acceptance because so Francis Collins berated people for not loving their neighbors during COVID. He uh Tim Keller berated Christians constantly for how they were not, you know, um fulfilling various things. And so, in a winsome way, but he berated you know people. And you know, I look, I worshipped in Tim Keller's church once when I went to uh New York, it was inspiring. So I'm not one who attacks him on everything, but I think in in their own self-estimate, if you listen to how they talk and the people that I know who've engaged them in a deeper level, they actually believe that they're standing for truth and going against what is just culturally acceptable. Now, now, if you're Francis Collins, the only way you're gonna get where he got is by getting acceptance. And so it does wind its way in. But for me, I look at, well, who is really are the people who are influencing their worldview? And this sort of in a way uh jumps ahead to your last item about you know biblical knowledge. It's not just biblical knowledge, but why don't they have the biblical knowledge? Well, if if you read enough of either Francis Collins or Tim Keller or people like that, you will find that the people that they most cite, yes, they talk about the Bible, but the people who are really influencing them are secularists, secular academics, secular worldview people, and out of and because they're convinced that that's really the truth. They studied among them, and I mean, if you read Tim Keller's book, Generous Justice on his on, you know, this came out before the biggest kick on social justice. When it talks about the Bible, I actually think it's okay. When it's applied to public policy, it's like warmed over Marxism. And we can talk about, so my my point is that it's those influences that convince them that what standing for truth means is and being willing to go against the majority, you know, people in their pews with the truth is that the secularists are the ones who really have the truth. So they've actually bought those underlying things. And so, and in fact, the the Bible is inconsequential because uh in some sense they wouldn't admit this, they've really bought into the idea that when it comes to most things in the practical things and professional things, the Bible is they wouldn't say it's a fairy story, they'd say it's true, but it really isn't applicable very much. But Marx is, or the people following him, or the secular philosophers are because they give us real insight into the world. And so again, I think acceptance is certainly part of it, but I think it's also these people, uh the ones that I'm talking about, genuinely believe, or when Andy Stanley berates, and we can get into you know the Old Testament, I think it's because he's actually imbibed his own doubts that he struggles with, and he has accepted the secular indictment of it. And so he's made, you know, he thinks that those secularists are in a way his friends. So I think, and then with regard to uh Megan is a great writer, and uh, her book Shepherds for Sale is uh a very important book, people should read it. I do have a bit of a different perspective with her. I do think money is corrupting, but the reality is, and I'll just say this as someone who's been in academia and worked in a lot of other nonprofits, and the sort of people who get this money, you're corrupted before you get the money. The money is a signal that you've already been corrupted. I mean, the faculty at Seattle Pacific who are seeking certain grants from certain places, it's because it immesh already agreed with, they agreed with the worldview. And so now, it is true that marginally, and of course, once you're on the gravy train, it can then get you to go further down. And and it's also true, as Megan points out, that these foundations, Soros type foundations, are very explicit that they're giving the money because they want to buy off the evangelicals. But I'm just saying that in when it comes to uh personal people that I know at the level who are getting funding, it's they were already corrupted.
Scott Allen:And so I wonder if I could bring you in on this point, because um we you know our background in Christian relief and development gives us a there there's a very similar kind of thing that's happened in most big Christian relief and development organizations. They've become secular over time. And um uh money does factor in kind of significantly, big grants, particularly from USAID, and we saw this when we were at Food for the Hungry, it was always an issue, a debate, you know, because you could always justify it, you could do so much more work, but that money wasn't, you know, it didn't it came with strings attached, you know, and uh what so I don't know.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna go down a little different trail because I as John Dr. Ross says you were talking, I was doing yes, yes, yes, yes, and I think thinking's my thought that you you you spurred. Um I think of of psychology, the field of psychology, and where do we go? We go to Freud, we go to psychularists that are deep in psychology. And yet at the end of the day, a a secularist will not have a view of Imago Day that we have because we believe in Genesis 1, and that God then made the human being in his image, and this is what it means to be human. If you take that out and you become a materialist, you you end up with a with I'm thinking specifically like uh the idea of your your life is determined. You're a victim of your circumstances, your social environment, your education, your parenting. This is all true, it influences you. But if you don't have if you have the Imago Day, you still have but you are a moral creature. You have a foundational requirement to make decisions for right or wrong. Nobody's gonna take that away from you. But if you're a materialist, you don't have that. You're literally just a victim. And so the the wisdom of psychology comes out of that that idea. Do you understand where I'm going? It's like you have a different this worldview at the very beginning is different, and so you get a different knowledge. And it sounds really smart.
Speaker:Yeah, no, I agree with that. And again, I I the the I I I think you probably make the best case in the area of development of how that could secularize. Although I will say, even in that, in most of these areas legally, um, you know, there are ways for you to still be uh deeply holistic with your biblical worldview, even if you you know segregate out, well, this is funded by the government, and then these other things are not. So there are ways if you really want to do it. But let me tell you where the light went on to me on this, even in social service. And I talk about this a little bit in the book when I was uh still teaching, one of the courses I teach would be state and local politics, and we would do things on various public policy things, and one thing we did was things like homelessness, and you know, because and right now, and I'll tell you, still living in the Seattle area and going in twice a week to downtown Seattle, I mean, uh, and this isn't for the lack of money. We've spent billions of dollars on it, but homelessness has never been worse. And and you know, you walk by these poor people who are overdosing on fentanyl, and it's not for lack of money. Well, so I talk about this minister, and he was in an evangelical denomination. I'm not going to shame them, but when he would go come to you know churches, he'd be wearing even a clerical collar, even though that denomination didn't really wear clerical collars, to emphasize, give me money because this is a Christian ministry to help the homeless. When he came and talked to my class, and the students began to ask, well, what are you actually doing to help the homeless? Well, basically, all they were doing is going out in the middle of the night, and then, you know, if they didn't have temporary shelter, giving them temporary shelter, which is a good thing, don't get me wrong. But when you began to ask, well, but what's distinctively Christian? For example, did you even try to find out, well, why are they homeless? Like engage them in conversation, because we know, I mean, now this is you know, in America, chronic homelessness, this is not everyone, but chronic long-term homelessness is largely associated with family breakdown, substance abuse, mental illness. Okay, so if you're just putting a band-aid on that, I mean, shelter is important, but that's not going to help them long term. Well, no, he didn't ask them. Then let alone, well, do you also do you do anything to offer spiritual help if they're thirsting for God? And I'm not talking about, and he was very dismissive of, and I understand this. I'm not, so I'm not arguing this. I know there are, you know, traditional uh some uh gospel mission shelter that in order to eat, you you need to go to a service. And uh, you know, that may be good, that may be bad, but I'm not even talking about that. I'm just saying, did they even offer, well, you know, uh we're having this Bible study, or we're doing, oh no, we're not doing that. It looks like a new thought to him. For all practical purposes, he was operating as a secularist. I mean, there really was no need for him to go to church, well, other than getting money from them. There was nothing distinctively Christian, and it was, and I don't think he was a bad guy, but I do think it does reflect some underlying beliefs that he had in his own mind, maybe unconsciously, had really accepted the idea that really the most important thing people need is physical shelter and nothing else. But that's not true.
Scott Allen:No, that's a that's a very materialist uh very again, Darwin, but that's a very materialist approach to the whole issue of poverty. Yeah.
Dwight Vogt:That just tells me that he's never really delved into what it means to be made in the image of God and what does it mean to be human.
Speaker:Because this gets back to if you I think there are a lot of Christians out there, once they go through academia, that they are, even if they don't say it to themselves, they've basically bought into the idea that the you know, they believe in some sense the Bible is true, but it's now so hemmed in to a very particularized privatized vision because they think that reality is material.
Scott Allen:Yeah, we talk about it, Dr. West, in terms of the sacred secular divide. So people have this kind of two-tiered Christianity where the Bible and their faith, church, these spiritual topics apply, but to a very narrow kind of slice of life, Sundays, you know, private, your personal devotions, you know, et cetera, prayer life. But when you talk about a vocation or your work, and if your work is, let's say uh, you know, development, uh social work, helping the poor, whatever it is, that's where you go to you learn about that from college and university. You got a master's degree in that, and and the Bible doesn't have anything to say about that, you know, and people are they're quite divided, you know, and this is true across the vocations, you know.
Speaker 1:Um it goes back, it goes back to what the Discovery Institute started with, which is is Genesis 1-1 true? Is there a mind of God behind the universe that would actually thought this all out and things like that?
Speaker:And then do we reflect his image? And do we reflect his image? Yeah. Because that that I mean, I I can't uh I mean, depending on where people who are listening where they're from, you know, they this may not be a crisis in their community, but I will tell you over the last five to ten years, in places like Seattle and Portland, the number of horrifically tragic people who are dying, who are homeless, and who are are being uh I I mean it it's it's a pandemic of homelessness, and it's not because oh, it's this cruel capitalist system where we're not giving money. No, we're putting hundreds in Seattle hundreds of millions of dollars to provide housing first, housing only, to actually help them in some cases with their habits, because you know, better to do it in their view, you know, safely than to unsafely. I'm not sure what that means. I guess you don't, you die a little bit later. And it's it's a a microcosm of this materialist worldview of where it leads you. In the name of compassion, it's the most cruel thing you can do. Simply housing people, in fact, we're finding this in the housing that they're putting, because there's no requirements for treatment, there's no um, you know, requirements for for anything. So then when they get put in this, those who actually genuinely do want to get help, they're terrorized by the other people in these facilities because they it becomes a very uh social Darwinist system where they're preyed upon by these other people. So it's not helping the people who want help, it's not helping the people who don't really want to change anything because you're not even giving them a nudge towards that. It's the cruelest thing you can do. Yet, many Christians, in my experience, at least in the Pacific Northwest, that's their vision. It makes them feel good. Um, you know, they'll write a check or maybe they'll they'll donate a little bit of time, but they don't understand that some of the things they're supporting are far from helping people. It's yeah, no, you're it's the cruelest thing you can do. And again, I do think that goes back to that that in their own mind, what you call the secular divide, which I agree with, but why is that? It's because I think they really have imbibed the idea that, well, the real reality is material. Yeah, yeah, spiritual is important, but you know, the really real is if they don't have food and if they don't have shelter, nothing else matters. Well, and again, I'm not against food and shelter, but I'm I'm saying, but if you were holistic, so that's why I was actually so thrilled when you started telling me about your work, because in you know development, I think a lot of even so-called evangelical Christian ministries over the last say 50 years haven't always they've bought into some of that. And so, but and so those that are genuinely trying to do holistic development, both to people's spiritual and emotional and and you know, moral and other needs, in addition to the physical needs. So it's not in replacement, not talking about people that, oh, you know, say uh rep be restful and and learn about Jesus and then just die because we're not gonna help you. Not talking about that, but I am talking about that to really help people, it can't just be give them a blanket.
Scott Allen:There's a there's a genuinely Christian and biblical approach to how you help people that are struggling with poverty, homelessness, or whatever it is, and it's not in this secular way, but Christians all too often learn the secular way and then they kind of Christianize it with prayer in the morning. But they don't start from the ground up saying, What you know, it has to start with pieces like, yeah, what does it mean to be made in the image of God? We're not talking about animals here. You know, these people are not animals. We don't just feed them like we do cattle. These are human beings. We have to treat them differently. Um I wonder, Dr. West, I completely agree with everything you're saying. Um did you I'm sure you've seen that wonderful documentary Seattle is Seattle is dying on homelessness. And did but you know, the I I found that to be, I know we're kind of drifting into this subject, but the the conclusion that they were pointing to at the end of that, I often thought you know, the it was I I I got excited about that because they were basically kind of pointing to a few things. If you really want to make a difference here, well you have to go to those root causes that you were mentioning. It's not shelter, actually. You know, it's uh it's isolation from families, separation, isolation, drug addiction, uh mental health issues. Um you have to deal with those issues. Um the first thing you have to do is you have to kind of do rule of law where you basically take them uh you know off the streets uh and you have to put them into some kind of a facility where you can help them get off drugs, provide basic mental health. And then I thought, you know, this would be such a great place where you could bring in the church and kind of Christians to really do uh treat them like human beings at this point, you know. Um uh really do some Christian ministry around the area of employment and getting them back into society. Um anyways, I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. Yeah I I I saw the work that uh Discovery was doing, by the way, on your website on this, and I thought it looked fantastic. I wanted to kind of talk about this as well. As I was seeing your work, I noticed that you brought up the fact too that there's this dark underbelly, you know, to the homelessness crisis, which is there's a whole lot of people that make a whole lot of money, right? There's an industry, if you will, that kind of wants to perpetuate it in the name of eradicating it. And this we've seen sadly in international relief and development work all over the world. There's a there's a real dark side to it. You know, people say they want to help overcome poverty, but there's just so much money in ensuring that people continue to be poor, you know.
Speaker:So the homelessness industrial complex. So yes, we actually one of our programs is called Fixed Homelessness, and this goes back actually to a real passion or desire of our founder, Bruce Chapman, who in the 1980s was actually interested in this, and and you actually had some of the same issues, but now it's more acute. And so um we have a former ABC affiliate reporter, uh Jonathan Cho who now works for us, and he's recorded reporting on the ground and going into all these places. And I will say, you know, whether people like or hate the Trump administration, on the issue of homelessness, they have just issued new grant guidelines that are going to that really um emphasize groups, including faith-based groups who want to be as Christian as they can be for programs that do more than simply housing first and housing only, that are actually addressing those root causes. But let me, and so that is an area that I think people, Christians who are concerned about poverty as we should be, and the less uh, you know, people who are in dire straits and people are struggling, they need to understand that evil is wrought. This already stuck in me. It was an English poet who Thomas Hood wrote, evil is wrought by lack of thought as well as lack of heart. That's a little bit of a paraphrase, but and that's exactly right. I think so many Christians, you know, well, if we feel good, then that makes it means that we're doing no. If you feel good and you're pushing someone over the cliff, that's awful. And here's why the shepherds, if you will, that are so important. Tim Keller, his book on generous justice, and this is a microcosm, and I know I mentioned it earlier, but it's in microcosms shows why so many Christians don't get it. His book, Generous Justice, when it talked about what the Bible said, was actually, I think, pretty good. But as soon as he veered over into public policy, it was like there was a complete disconnect. And how you can write an entire book on poverty in America. And the only things when you get to public policy that you're talking about, oh, the big evil corporations and they're redlining and they're doing this. And I don't discount, big corporations are dominant by human beings, uh, and human beings are sinful. So I'm not an apologist for big corporate America. But let's get real. This is not controversial. If you're dealing in America, and you know, it's different in each area of the world, but in America, long-term intractable, intergenerational poverty is largely a function of family breakdown and mental illness and you know substance abuse.
Scott Allen:Well, and then it's exacerbated by the welfare state, too, right? You know, and all of the dependencies that's created. Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker:And but but those are but especially family breakdown, and those are all interrelated. And so if you are not willing to address that, no, you're right. You are really and here's where you know part of my book actually does have a chapter on sexuality, but here's something that frustrates me to no end that the some of the people say, oh, well, the Bible talks a lot more about poverty than sex, which not isn't exactly true, but but you know, they say that, so we should be doing more on poverty and not be talking about the family and these other issues. Houston, I mean, we have a problem. I don't understand how they can say this. What starts in the bedroom doesn't stay in the bedroom. If you are genuinely interested in get in bettering people's lives, uh, especially in America, who are trapped in long-term intergenerational poverty.
Scott Allen:And it's the breakdown of the family.
Speaker:You have to be talking about and thinking about ways you can strengthen the traditional monogamous family uh because they go together. And so the people but too many Christians in the pews are misled by the the leaders like, you know, uh I I fully anticipate seeing Tim Keller in heaven, but I think he was on the wrong path there, where he was so imbibing of the secular worldview and and and thinking it was that was genuine Christianity, that he he and others have misled a whole generation of Christians to thinking that, well, what it means to be involved in in helping poverty, it's it's secular social justice or it's programs that actually make matters worse.
unknown:Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he is. I want to ask a question here, Scott. I'm gonna take us full circle again. Uh Dr. West, you began this by saying there's you know, one of the functions of the Discovery Institute is just to promote the science of behind the mind of the universe, that God exists and there's a mind behind the universe. And then you went to a mind behind sociology, a mind behind economics, a mind behind uh I don't know what else. Anyway, all the subject matter and and that that God exists behind all of that. Here's my question. I feel like the Discovery Institute has done a super great service to the American church by going back and saying the Bible is real when it comes to creation. So the I and I'm thinking that that is like the the tip of the spear for impacting all these other areas that are influenced influenced by materialism. Are you seeing the growth of that understanding in the American church? And the understanding first of yeah, creation is real and science supports it now because you know that's where the evidence is pointing to. And that's then and then hopefully seeing it influence the rest of secular understanding. Are you at your perspective, are we seeing a shift in the culture? Yeah, are we making sense? Am I imagining it or am I hoping?
Speaker:Um no, you're not imagining it. And you know, I tend to be for for the people who like C.S. Lewis, uh, you know, I'm I'm known as sort of uh resident puddle glum because I I I don't uh you know, and when people say, oh, you know, if we just have this, we're gonna revolutionize everything and stuff. Well, God has it in control, and so I'm not gonna presume what's gonna happen in the future. But I have been astounded. I I preface that because what I'm gonna say is not puddle glum. And it's gonna sound like boosterish, but uh, but if you told me that we'd be in the situation when we began, say 20, 30 years ago, I would have said you're nuts. Steve Meyer wouldn't have said it because he has a very positive vision of the future and he believes it. I tend to be very skeptical of things. You know, when we started, we were in the heyday of what became known as the new atheism. And so you had people like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris and all these people who were that the wave of the future is Darwinian materialism. And they based their things on unguided Darwinian evolution. They were very clear on that. And that everyone is going to be, you know, an atheist because this that's what science shows. And one of the reasons why intelligent design was so controversial to begin with is because we didn't actually duke it out on the Bible. And in fact, I couldn't tell you what the various views of the Bible of all of our fellows are, because I don't know. Some of them I know, and I know my own view. But we were focusing on, well, what does nature we can't learn everything from nature, but what does nature actually say? And the evidence was going in the complete other direction than what Dach was saying. And the new atheists hated that. They didn't mind the people who were willing to argue about Genesis, because in their view, Genesis was just a fairy story. But once you started to say, well, sorry, even if you don't believe in Genesis, you cannot escape the tiny molecular machines inside our cells, the fine-tuning of the universe that allows us to exist. The uh actually, I would say the beginning of the universe that forces there to be a non-material cause, you know, to bring it into existence. That's why they were so upset with the arguments we were making. And lo and behold, and now it's not just us saying this, uh, there was a book just uh a year or two ago by Justin Briderly, a good Christian in UK, about the surprising rebirth of belief in God, which talks about how the how the new atheism became old. You know, how it failed. They're not talking about the new atheism anymore because they haven't replaced themselves. Dawkins even is sort of a pale reflection of himself because he he actually calls himself now a cultural Christian and he, you know, he's out of sorts with the really vanguard because he thinks there are just two sexes. And so that makes him, you know, they didn't replace themselves. I mean, the best you get for a Darwinian materialist right now are internet trolls. Like there's a guy called called Professor Dave, and yeah, he gets a lot of views. He's not a professor, he doesn't even have a PhD in anything, and he usually most of his motive rhetoric are using four-letter words, and I'm not talking about Adam or love.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker:This is what they've been reduced to. Dawkins was at least a smart guy. He was a professor at Oxford University, he knew how to make an argument. It's collapsed. And so, on the issue of whether you know God exists and whether science actually is helps push in that direction as opposed to as opposed to against that, I think there has been a sea change in just the last five years.
Speaker 1:Now that's the good news. Do you think the church sees it?
Speaker:So um it always this may sound dismissive, but among evangelical academics, the joke was that they found out about things, you know, their cutting edge was after the secularist had gotten there 30 years before or 10 years before. So they were always the last ones because a lot of evangelical academics, they're trained among the secularists, and so they remember what they were when they were in graduate school, and so they're some of the last people to know. I think it is becoming known because a lot of people now are writing books about it, and people are noting that at least in England to a lesser degree in the United States, but in England you can show a dramatic statistic in more young men, especially attending church. Uh, and again, you're having books written by about the failure of the new atheism, and you even have people like Russ Douthit at the New York Times who have basically said the same things, and these are these are some of these are people of faith, but they may not be evangelical Christians, but they are noticing, and so I do think they're starting to notice. So I think objectively speaking, things have changed because, and we've even seen this in the type of debates we engage in, because uh again, uh in in the first 10, 15, 20 years, you can have a vibrant debate with an avowed atheist materialist who actually made serious arguments. They may be wrong, but they made serious arguments.
Speaker 1:Now they're better.
Speaker:There's very almost none of that now because the only people who are spewing stuff are such low bottom feeders that there's nothing left. And again, that so that has that is having an impact. I do think Christians are becoming aware of that to some degree. Uh I hope it'll be more. And I think there's a huge opportunity because of that. I also think there's a huge challenge. Here's my puboglum, which is um just because the evidence is constant with belief in God doesn't alone tell you who that God is or what particular direction you're gonna go with it. And so there are a lot of I I do think that maybe some of the challenges in the next 10 years are gonna be a bit different, especially in America, where people are more and more draping themselves in Christianity but embracing views that really aren't sort sort of not the ones that you've been used to. So yeah, okay.
Luke Allen:All right, my turn to ask a question. Sure. I I I love the the reference to uh the silver chair and our friend there. And I tend not to be a puddle glum, but uh in this area I do. Uh all the time here at the DNA we talk about the sacred secular divide as being a huge issue uh with so many things. You know, we're bringing it up today. And uh what I what I found really interesting in your book is how you say, yes, there's a sacred secular divide, but uh in a couple of the chapters, um the one about uh listening to the wrong voices, following the wrong leaders uh in the middle of the book, you talk about how it's it's not that Christians well, we do have a sacred secular divide, but we have a sacred secular divide because when it comes to an issue like psychology, there isn't a well-grounded biblical worldview argument for what psychology actually is. It's not out there. So our only options are Alfred Kinsey or you know, Sigmund Freud or Carl Jung. So we go to them. And that's the listening to the the wrong voices. So it's when we're when we're confronted by an issue like that, or there's not actual Christians out there speaking into these issues from a distinctly biblical worldview perspective. So that's obviously we're gonna go follow the wrong leaders. So w where do we go from here? Uh obviously there's there's more Christians speaking into this now, but like you're saying is are they gonna be speaking from a distinctly Christian worldview on these things? Or are they just gonna cloak themselves in Christianity and then present a argument of psychology that's completely you know unfounded?
Scott Allen:So I think I think Dr. West, this is really what the Discovery Institute has done on the issue of evolution, is that you sh you showed uh you showed the way to respond to you know the Darwinian, the dominant Darwinian view, which you're right. I mean go back ten or fifteen years and it was absolutely proven fact, solid, everything was buttoned down, and any kind of question of it, you know, was was uh a fairy tale. Um but you guys um you didn't engage in the debates within the church about the age of the earth and all of this debate that was going on. You got outside the church and you really looked at that issue and you said uh this got holes in it, and the people that are propping it up are showing themselves to be the ideologues, they're committed to their materialism and their naturalism, you know, as opposed to doing real science. And uh and you showed the way, I think, to do real science, and you've had incredible uh, you know, Steven Meyer and others, incredible um fruit has come from that. So I really give you guys a lot of credit uh in that in that area in particular. I think we have to, like to your point, Luke, do it in all the areas now.
unknown:Yeah.
Speaker:So so Luke, I think you've hit upon um something that is exactly right, which is in my chapter about what who are we listening to. I do think a fundamental problem now that isn't solved by good things happening, it's where do Christians, including pastors, but also their parishers, where are they getting their information from? And the reason I had a whole chapter on that is I don't think most Christians really realize how they are being shaped. And you know, the one just tiny example I give on on perceptions of gay marriage, which now in churches are very split. Not as split as in the secular culture, which is overwhelmingly for gay marriage, but but and the churches are better, and and there's been some going back to being more biblical, but but still serious split even among evangelical churches on that. Well, how do we get here from when before the Supreme Court, you know, just uh just a few years ago ruled, invented a right to gay marriage that isn't in the Constitution. Up to that time, the majority of all Americans did not think gay marriage was right. People forget this in our own lifetime, just a lot a few years ago.
Scott Allen:Yeah, Barack Obama, right, was against it. Right, yeah.
Speaker:That's true. From that to a sea change. Well, how did that happen? Well, I think part of the story, and I I tell, if you look at the news media at the time, even when the general public was a majority thought this is not really marriage, the reporters, it was like 70, 30 in favor of gay marriage, and their reports reflected that. And so I actually talk about one study of about five, six hundred articles around this time, you know, before and after when the Supreme Court ruled. And the only experts interviewed for the most part were people who supported gay marriage. The way all those articles were framed was for that. And so let's say you're a Christian who has starts out with a biblical view, but you're getting your news from the standard sources that you think, oh, well, that's just where you know we just get the unbiased news. Or maybe there's some bias there, but I can see through that. Well, if you've imbibed dozens upon dozens of stories where the only people cited, the only experts, are, oh, this is misguided. The only Christians cited, well, we really need to change our views. Maybe you'll still hold to your Christian beliefs in spite of that. Good for you, you should. But but if that's all you're imbibing, even your belief is gonna be at best weakened and privatized because you're gonna think, oh yeah, I'm a faithful Christian, I believe it, but the whole world believes that it thinks that it's the other side. And so at the very least, you're gonna be neutered. And what many Christians it happens is you're gonna end up sliding over to the other side. And so what you imbibe, where you get your news from, where you get your information about the world from is imperative, and where your kids get it. And this is another thing where I see in evangelical churches where by the time of middle school, let alone high school, many parents don't recognize their kids and begin to ask, well, so what have you done for worldview formation? Where do they get information? And how much are they on social media and how much are they on Netflix? And then you begin to understand, and this isn't always the case, and I want to say, you know, kids ultimately they have their own accountability, and so you may have done everything right, and maybe they've fallen away, maybe they'll come back by God's grace. But in a lot of cases, let's put it this way yeah, garbage in, garbage out. If you don't do anything and you just feed them over the wolves, or in essence, say throw them out into Lake Michigan and say, learn to swim, it's pretty inevitable what's going to happen. So I do think that one actionable point that everyone can do is think, where do we get our information from? And the thing is, the the downside of an information saturated society is it's so overwhelming. The good side is there actually are lots of information sources that are good. Whether it be this podcast, whether it be things like the Christian Post or World Magazine, or other there are places that if you want to know the the just the not only the point of view, but also what is happening in places like Africa. We're a worldwide community of of Christians, and so many Christians don't know what's happening in Nigeria right now, they don't know what's happening. Anywhere else than American, they don't really necessarily know that. Well, why is that? If you're relying on secular reporters who overwhelmingly do not attend church or do not think that's important, it doesn't even mean that the articles they produce have to be biased. They just won't cover large swaths of what's actually happening. That will shape you into someone else. And so you are really right that I think one of the most proactive things that churches can do, that parents can do for their kids, that any Christian can do for themselves is take an inventory. What are your information sources? And be more intentional about that. And really ask, are these good information sources? And and you know, if you don't have time, not everyone has time to go through all these sorts of information sources. I understand that. Well then make sure that the ones that you usually go to are the best you can have. And because in my experience, the people who look most like the world is because they've been listening to the world.
Scott Allen:Yeah. Well said.
Luke Allen:Yeah. I I we are in a saturate or um in this information age though, we are so oversaturated with information, and we don't even take the time to stop and process it. And I just I as I was talking with a friend this week, and I'm like, how are some of the smartest people that America ever produced? The guys who grew up in cabins in the early 1700s and only had one book in their house. And I think it's because they had a lot of time to just think and reflect, you know, this this process of critical thinking and this process of Colossians 2 8, take every thought captive. It's like, yes, you uh a a great first step is to make sure your information sources are y you know, Christian sources and people that actually have a biblical worldview. But if you're just taking their opinions and imbibing them yourself, you're not actually going to be able to defend those because you don't actually truly believe them. You haven't soaked it in yet. You're just gonna repeat talking points when someone pushes you. So this process of taking thought captives, this is I mean, this is really the legwork. This is the hard part. And I uh any any advice. No, no, no, I agree with that.
Speaker:You need to help yourself and your kids develop what my late friend Phil Johnson used to call the baloney detector. And and and and then that's right. I loved I love that book so much.
Scott Allen:I read that book to you, Luke, when you were younger.
Speaker:And and and you you we we do need to develop discernment, but I I guess what I'm saying is it's hard for and some Christians are going to be less or more discerning, but it it's hard if you're getting imbibing gunk. And so, but but but regardless, you also do need to develop gifts of discernment. So I that is is also key. And this is one reason why I say if say you're homeschooling your kids, don't use homeschooling, and and and most homeschools I don't think do this, but but don't use it as an excuse to not uh let your kids know in an age-appropriate manner the arguments being made out there because you have to help them process it and think it through. Absolutely. Now, this does not mean at your three-year-old or five-year-old giving them graphic sex talks or something, but um you do need to think of so for example, I mean, on the issue of evolution, absolutely. I think many Christians uh think, well, you know, the evolution is godless, therefore we don't really want our kids to know about it, or we'll just tell them it's godless, and then no. In fact, if you do that, when they eventually go to college, whether it's Christian or secular, within, and I saw this actually with a I've seen this personally, uh, within the first semester or quarter, they'll completely flip because they will think that they were lied to. And in some sense, they were because they weren't given. So our actually suggestion is if you're homeschooling when it comes to biology, as your basal text, choose the best secular textbook, no matter how Darwinian it is, because there's a lot of non-Darwinian stuff in it. And uh also this will help prepare them better for other things. But then there are lots of other resources. We have some, you know, other groups have some that will come alongside that, and then especially in the sex where it's infected with evolution or bad science or bad philosophy, you actually intentionally have them read both. You have them read the secular textbook, and then you have them read something else, and then you engage them in discussion, and then they begin to be able to see that just because you know, if they first encounter an expert who says something that troubles them, they shouldn't say, oh, well, just because this guy claims to be an expert, I must accept it. No, they need to begin to ask more questions and think through. And at the very least, even if they don't develop their baloney detector, they'll they'll develop enough to think that there may be other experts or resources that they should go out and try to get a hold of before making a change in their mind. And I would say that the homeschoolers who do this right, I'll just tell a not a funny story, but in our state, we have something called Running Start, which basically allows any high schooler to go to community college for the upper two uh last two years and get a free uh you know AA degree. And so lots of homeschoolers do that. You know, they go homeschooled through grade 10, and then for grades 11 and 12, they go into community college. And so this means, and our kids did this because they were homeschooled for most of their their time, but they they went and at this local community college, the classes were filled with lots of homeschoolers, and the and the professors, by the way, loved them because they happened to be some of the most engaged people, even though the professors were not Christian and maybe they're out there, but they loved them because they actually were interested in the topic and were fairly you know good students. But what was really interesting is that when some of these professors went off you know kilter, that uh actually, particularly, this is a good example with our own kids. You know, they were still living at home, and so we'd have dinner, and you know, they'd raise these issues and we taught through it. And because they even in their homeschooling, they'd already encountered some of these arguments, these were not crises of face for them because they saw through it. And so you really do want to help kids to, and you don't have to be an expert on everything, but don't caricature what the let what the secular culture is saying. You know, give a good-based argument on or description in these areas of like science, and then put it alongside and get your kids to read the other and interact with it, and they will, you know, more often than not, they'll begin to learn about these things. But what happened in the community college is that when a professor went off, I I remember, you know, one professor was who claimed to be a Christian, was advocating some really pagan practices down in Mexico that were really not at all Christian, and she was called on it by some of lovingly by some of the students, and then she said, Yeah, I guess you know you're right. In other words, they were um they were really helping even the people who are non-homeschool students by raising issues. I'm not talking about being aggressive or mean or anything to, or or or claiming you know everything, but to know enough that you can say, well, but there are some other experts or other people who say this, or that that can change the whole dynamic of a class. So I do think you you were exactly right, Luke, that people need to uh develop and train people on the gift of discernment. And I actually think my chapter about marks of wisdom uh tells some of those things that people you know need to know about that could help them do that. But there are many other ways. Um let me just say one other thing back to something else you had said, Luke. You talked about that we need people in you know psychology or these other areas that are Christians, and and I agree. But I'm not gonna let the social service Christians off the hook because when it comes to homelessness uh and and ministry in poverty, in the 1990s, one of the best-selling books was by Marvin Olaski. Tragedy of American Compassion. Absolutely. And and so and that was actually influential among in welfare reform in Congress in the 1990s, and so this was actually tremendously influential. It was out there amongst in the secular field. And so I don't think that the Christians, the Christian pastors, the Christian ministry people who uh are just following what you know the secularists want, they're culpable because there actually were other voices that that actually had a, like I said, Marvin Olaski had a huge impact on the the welfare reform that passed, that was signed by Bill Clinton, that was jointly by the Republicans and the Democrat, new Democrats Bill Clinton. And that largely came out of what Marvin Olasky was doing that was explicitly Christian, and making the point that the tragedy of American compassion is just treating this like it was just uh an issue about material inputs and not about people's underlying brokenness that we need to try to heal and deal with them as a whole person.
Scott Allen:Outstanding book. Always recommend that book. Well, I want to we probably need to wrap up, Dr. West, even though this has been such a fantastic discussion. I have a feeling we could go actually four or five hours, but uh you you I want to just take you back to your sense of optimism that we really have seen a huge shift um not just in the area of science evolution, kind of uh the questioning of that paradigm, the the the the rise and fall of the new atheists and whatnot, but uh just this broader sense that things are changing, the the so-called vibe shift that we hear about, right? And um I was wondering if you could maybe end by painting a picture. You were involved, let's say, at Seattle Pacific, and you could think of a uh a Christian university, a church, an organization, but what would it look like to uh in 10 years be that kind of an organization, Christian evangelical, faithful Christian organization that was culturally engaged but not Stockholm syndrome, you know, uh not in that trap. What would that look like? Can you paint us a picture of where we need to go?
Speaker:I I think the bottom line is that it would those organizations will be genuine lights in culture and and people will recognize that. Now, some people who are against them will say they're they're blights, but the the idea is that they'll be lights. And and how are you that? Well, say if you're in an academic institution, it's well, who are you bringing to speak to chapel? Who are your professors? What sorts of books are they writing? What sorts of comments are they making for the public media? Are they, in the case of many, you mentioned psychology, which I do think is a real uh problem, not so much on as much on the homelessness, but in the ex where were the Christian psychologists and medical doctors when it came to the gender wars? Absolutely. Between between that the male and female are the categories. And I'll tell you, it in Washington State, when they passed a, you know, it's called a you know uh against uh you know conversion law, which had nothing, it really was not about that, was that you couldn't even counsel people who wanted help to be you know um recognized that if they're a man that or or or if they're a woman that they can accept that and that that's a good thing. But it was banning that the the D the conversion laws. You can't have conversion therapy, and again, that was all sort of mischaracterized. But in Washington State, when we were debating that law, I by then had left SPU, but I had another friend who was there. We wrote a letter trying to lay out the case to legislators as to why um they shouldn't pass it. And I made an effort to try to get, say, people who are in psychology and family and health sciences from SPU whether they would join the letter. I mean, and the sad fact of the matter is most Christian professors of psychology, most Christian doctors, that's not the reason that we now can actually have an honest debate, and we've been going back a little bit more towards Sandy, especially towards kids, is sadly not because the Christian pastors or Christian psychologists as a whole were so courageous. It's actually, in many cases, they were secularists. In fact, there's an evolutionary biologist who I disagree with on many things who spoke out really strongly on it, uh, on the gender madness. Uh, and then you had people who are largely secular.
Scott Allen:And then you had there's a the the former brand manager for Levi's in San Francisco, I forget her name now, but she's become one of the most outspoken um critics, particularly in the area of sports. You know, men are men, women are women, and they can't become the other. Not a Christian. It's not a Christian.
Speaker:And so how how sad is that?
Scott Allen:Exactly. Now you were asking for the positive. So this has got to change. Like this really has to change.
Speaker:But if your organization is what, especially for an educational organization, what are they teaching? Who are their professors? Because they're about equipping and who are they bringing to campus? Who are they highlighting and celebrating? That will tell you. And if they are good people who are actually talking about biblical truth uh and applying it, you will see that. Now, what why as far as being optimistic or not? I I will say ultimately the reason I'm optimistic is not because of us fallible humans, it's because God is in charge. And so that, and sadly, that doesn't mean that that everything's gonna be hunky-dory or that we are actually gonna turn the corner in America on a lot of these things. We could go out of existence, but I trust that God is in charge, and all this is the subject of my last chapter there, that all God calls us to be is faithful, not successful. God will take care of success. And the amazing thing throughout history, and I'm not you know prepared to say because I I don't see the future, and and I and I'm glad that God doesn't give us that because you know it's in his hands. But if you look historically, this many of the times when Christians were at the worst. I mean, imagine if you were a Christian uh after uh Christ and after the apostles died off, and then you were facing these horrific persecutions, at some point you might have thought, we're just you know, Christianity is gonna die off. And then just a few years later, well, it becomes the official you know religion of the Roman Empire. Now that wasn't a whole blessing, but it was but you know, that stopping the persecution was. And then, or you look in China under communist China, how uh when the missionaries were kicked out and people thought the gospel is dead in China. No, it's not. The fastest growing faith in China now is Christianity. There are millions upon millions of Chinese Christians, and so you can sometimes God is surprising.
Scott Allen:That's right.
Speaker:And and so the and we could go through American history, don't have time for that, but you know, many people who think that America was founded just as a Christian nation, and they don't get that actually there were a lot of non-Christians at the beginning, but we became more Christian through the Second Great Awakening and other things. God was surprising in his faith, is his own faithfulness, and so I'm optimistic overall because I know God is in charge and I see he's doing some really great things, and and you don't need to have the weight of the universe on your shoulders like Atlas uh in pagan mythology, because God has everything on his shoulders, and he's just calling you to be faithful in the part that he gave you, and then and then watch what he does with that.
Scott Allen:Well, listen, I don't know if we can do better than ending with that. That's uh that's a great way to put a tie, a bow tie here on our podcast. Dr. West, thank you for all that you're doing. Thanks for this great book, Stockholm Syndrome Christianity. I encourage all of our leaders to check it out, to read it. It's an important book for the time we're living in. And we touched on so many things in the podcast here, and that's because the breadth of uh resources and topics and help that you can get at the Discovery Institute is that broad. You need to go, you need to check it out. Uh everything is starting from that premise that it all begins with the mind. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. And uh so it uh it's moving in a really different direction than what you're gonna get pretty much from any other secular think tank. Um, Luke, uh Dwight, any final um questions or thoughts as we wrap up here?
Speaker 1:Uh you're not short on passion, Dr. West. So keep it going.
Scott Allen:Keep the energy up. That's right. Keep it up. And uh and we look forward to hopefully we can have you back on again. There was there's so many things we touched on, poverty and homelessness, and you know, boy, any one of those, evolution and science we could have just uh spent the entire time on. So we'll uh we'd love to have you back, but thanks so much for taking time with us today.
Speaker:Thank you.
Scott Allen:God bless you.
