Ideas Have Consequences
Worldviews shape communities, influence politics, steer economics, set social norms, and ultimately affect the well-being of both your life and your nation. Obedience to the Great Commission involves replacing false ideas with biblical truth. Together with the help of friends, our mission is to demonstrate that only biblical truth leads to flourishing lives, families, societies, and nations. This show explores the intersection of faith and culture, aiming to address pressing societal issues through a biblical lens. Ideas Have Consequences is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance.
Ideas Have Consequences
Truth Rising: A Call to Action in a Civilizational Moment | John Stonestreet
Episode Summary:
Western civilization is being washed away by a flood of corrosive ideas. In a moment such as this, we must anchor ourselves to the firm foundation from whom its flourishing grew. We need a last-ditch ‘Hail Mary,’ or more so a wholehearted “Hail Christ the King.” This week, John Stonestreet shares about the new documentary he co-hosted, Truth Rising. In this candid conversation, we cover why our cultural moment feels unmoored, why truth can’t remain a private belief, and how courageous discipleship can actually rebuild what’s been breaking.
Drawing on themes from Truth Rising, John helps us make sense of the cultural crossroads before us: decline, revolution, or renewal. He emphasizes the need to call believers to a fuller gospel that actively engages in God’s redemptive work in every area of culture and life. As we discuss the powerful testimonies of Jack Phillips, Chloe Cole, and others, we consider the real cost of believers speaking and living for the truth. Join us for a conversation that will challenge and equip you to take your next step toward truth, love, and cultural transformation.
Who is Disciple Nations Alliance (DNA)? Since 1997, DNA’s mission has been to equip followers of Jesus around the globe with a biblical worldview, empowering them to build flourishing families, communities, and nations. 👉 https://disciplenations.org/
🎙️Featured Speaker:
John Stonestreet serves as president of the Colson Center. He’s a sought-after speaker and author on areas of faith and culture, theology, worldview, education, and apologetics. John is the voice of Breakpoint, the nationally syndicated commentary on the culture founded by the late Chuck Colson. John is an ordained deacon in the Anglican Diocese of All Nations. He and his wife, Sarah, have four children and live in Colorado Springs, CO.
📌 Recommended Links
👉 Film: Truth Rising
👉 Sign-Up for The Study: Truth Rising
👉 Recommended Book: Our civilizational moment: os guinness
👉 Recommended Book: The Air We Breathe: Glen Scrivener
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📽️YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/DiscipleNationsAlliance/
📩 Ask us anything: info@disciplenations.org
We have a vibe shift, whatever that means. I don't think that it's accurate necessarily to say a vibe shift is the same as a revival. In other words, not running off the cliff of the moral abyss is progress. If you're headed that way, it seems like hitting the brakes is going forward, but it just is hitting the brakes. We have to reattach to what's true, and that's reattaching to Christ.
Luke Allen:Hi, friends, welcome back to another episode of Ideas Have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. As Christians, we all agree that our mission is to spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. However, our mission also involves working to transform cultures so that they increasingly reflect the truth, the goodness, and the beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected this second part of her mission, and today most Christians are having little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God. Hi guys, my name is Luke Allen, and I am one of the co-hosts here on the podcast, and I'm joined today by my dad and co-host Scott Allen. And then we are also going to be joined during the recording by Darrow Miller, the founder of the Disciple Nations Alliance, and one of the co-hosts here on the podcast for today's excellent discussion. I really enjoyed today's recording. Dad, before we hop into the discussion today, would you mind giving people a little bit of a synopsis of what we talked about today?
Scott Allen:Well, we interviewed John Stone Street, and um John's been a kind of a regular guest on our podcast. John's one of the most important uh voices on the subject of biblical worldview, biblical worldview discipleship and discipling nations. Honored to count him as a friend. We specifically uh focused on uh John's new project with Oz Guinness Truth Rising. Excellent documentary, outstanding. And we're gonna encourage all of you to watch that. It's free. You can find it on YouTube. It's called Truth Rising. And I think for me, the the the highlight of the discussion was um John's optimistic sense that um we really are, as we're gonna discuss in this episode, we really are at a civilizational moment in the sense that um the nutrients, the cultural nutrients that have fed into Western culture through the Bible over centuries have really kind of run out of gas. And unless we can be re-established and rooted in the the Word of God, we're headed for decline, a collapse. Uh something will come in the wake of that, obviously, but it won't look what like what it's been. And yet John is optimistic and he's gonna talk about some of the reasons for his optimism, both in the church and in the culture. And um, I agree, basically, I I agree with his analysis. I think it's a time to be serious, sober-minded, but also not hopeless in any respect. Because here's the deal God is still at work, he's still on the throne, and we don't know exactly what he's going to do. We don't know when Aslan's going to be on the prowl again, to put it in C. S. Lewis's famous uh framework there. So, anyways, uh I'm sure that it'll be an encouragement to those of you who listen through it. So, Luke, how about you?
Luke Allen:Yeah, I really enjoyed this episode today. And um, one of the fav my favorite parts of this documentary that we're covering today was just the how much they highlighted the importance of every single individual's the impact that each one of us can make and the calling that we have exactly. And I often when we're talking about you know changing culture, discipling nations and going out and stepping boldly into into culture, people always say, you know, well, that's easy for you to say. You work at a Christian ministry. If I did this, you know, this or this would happen to me in my life and my friends and my my work and so on and so forth. Um one thing that I loved about this documentary though is how it highlights people, regular, regular, everyday people, who took a step of faith, who took a step to represent the truth. And that comes with a cost, and uh you'll hear about the stories of the real costs that people faced. And we ended the discussion there talking about just encouraging people to take that step of faith, and um each one of us have a part to play. There are no little people, as Francis Schaefer says. And we all have a lot bigger of an impact, I think, than we'll give ourselves credit for in this world.
Scott Allen:Both ourselves, our families, and God can take our small things and and do something great with it, that's right.
Luke Allen:Yeah, so that's an that's always an encouragement for me to hear while uh while we were talking. A couple verses came to mind. One of them I just want to share here is 1 Corinthians 15, 58, which says, Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourself fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain. I think that's a great encouragement. But before we start uh the episode, I want to give you guys a couple quick housekeeping announcements. Uh, one of which is here on Ideas Have Consequences, we are going to be taking a short break uh from this podcast during the month of January. This is not a break because we're tired and uh getting over this podcast, even though we have recorded 200 episodes now, which is awesome. But this is just a break for us to kind of reset, get our team ready for the next season, and uh hopefully bring back the show after this short break better than ever before. So that's the hope. Uh, but we just want to let you guys know that I'll I'll be announcing that on the next few episodes. So without further ado, let's hop into the discussion with John Stone Street.
Scott Allen:Welcome back to the podcast. We're thrilled today to have with us again our uh old friend John Stone Street, uh president of the Colson Center. For those of you who aren't familiar with John, I can't remember, I can't imagine there's too many uh of you out there that that may be the case. John's uh uh one of the key leaders, I would say, in this area of biblical worldview discipleship and helping the church to uh understand how it can have an impact in the culture for Christ and honor Christ in that way. He's also, and we're gonna talk today about the new documentary that uh John has been a part of with Oz Guinness called Truth Rising. Excited to talk about that um project, John. We had a chance to watch that. Um really terrific uh documentary and encourage all of our listeners to do that. It's really important uh for everyone to to see this work that you've been a part of and um exciting to see you working with Oz Guinness in that way. So, John, great to have you back. Thanks for taking time.
John Stonestreet :Oh, listen, it's always uh good to see you you guys. Uh I've learned so much from uh from Darrow's work, from the work of Discipling Nations. It's just uh it's just an incredible partnership, and so really grateful for you letting folks know about this new project.
Scott Allen:Well, let's jump into that, John. Tell us a little bit about it. Um Truth Rising, that's the name of the documentary, and I believe it's a curriculum as well that you developed. And I look for I haven't seen that. I look forward to looking at that. But uh tell us about uh kind of the uh origins of this, uh the inspiration behind it, what led to it. And this is a collaboration with Focus on the Family as well, correct?
John Stonestreet :Yeah, it is. And and really it kind of goes back to both of our roots, right? I mean, uh truth uh Focus on the Family famously did uh a curriculum, terrific curriculum with Dell Tacket years ago called the Truth Project, which had an incredible uh reach. It uh helped uh articulate uh worldview uh really in a kind of comparative sense and the implication that it had for different areas of thought and different areas of culture. And of course, Chuck Olsen uh is known for How Now Shall We Live, uh which he wrote with Nancy Pearcy. Um that was you know specifically put into the tradition of Francis Schaefer's uh, you know, How Shall We Then Live, uh, which was the the book and the film series. And in fact, when we were thinking about this project, we wanted to name it along those lines, but there were no more adverbs, you know, to use, so we had to go with uh you know something uh a little bit different. But you know, uh Focus and um uh the the focus leadership, Jim Daly, a good friend. In fact, we office here at the Focus Building, and and it just it it just seemed like it was time. Um time for something uh new, another way of teaching and and communicating worldview, but it needed to be different. And one of the reasons uh we both felt like it needed to be different is yeah, how how do I say this? You you know, uh I I don't know anyone who's been teaching this stuff longer, uh Darrow, than than than than you. Um uh but I I'm now at 20 uh just under 25 years. And I was uh r reading at the time, you know, the the different thought leaders who were talking about kind of these theoretical implications of what you believe, right? If there is no God, then there's no grounding for morality. And if there is no God, then there's no source of meaning. I remember, you know, talking about postmodernism and saying, well, if everyone determines their own reality, then up can mean down, and left can mean right, and right can mean wrong, and boy can mean girl. And it hit me about two years ago that at least one of those hypotheticals that we used to teach postmodernism was now being debated in the Supreme Court. In other words, these are kind of theoretical things that had become quite existential. Um these were kind of conceptual ideas that were true but had become actuals. Uh and uh so so so we needed something to help kind of uh articulate why things felt so chaotic in Western culture, what was the source of that chaos? How did we get to a point where we were denying observable realities and trying to speak reality into existence? Where did all this come from? And then how does the gospel speak to this? What does it require of us to be in this time, in this place? And so really that's I know that's kind of a lot, but that's what was behind it. And and and focus wanted to do it and and we wanted to do it and just ended up being a great partnership.
Scott Allen:How did how did you end up working together with Oz? Because uh, you know, it it that became it to me, it seemed almost like a uh a tribute to him uh and his work, and especially his most recent book. I think it's his most he writes so many books, it's hard to keep up with his book. But uh Yeah, it's ridiculous.
John Stonestreet :He needs to slow down.
Scott Allen:I know. This civilizational moment, which uh I read um oh here about a year ago, and I loved. I just I I was I was so proud of Oz for taking on, you know, he he looks at these, I for what what is the word that he used to describe them? These uh the four waves. The four waves, yeah, waves, uh these challenges that you know we're facing in the culture right now. There's our a red wave that uh uh is symbolic of of um Marxism, of critical theory, of of of all of all all of that, uh kind of the woke uh worldview that's so dominant, and then the you know, there's um I think what was it, the black Islam, and um anyways, I think I was so pre proud of the way that he he you know he didn't shy away from any of those. Um but but yeah, talk about that a little bit, John. How did you end up working with Oz and really building it around that, it seems like around that book in some ways.
John Stonestreet :It is. I mean, uh the there there's really kind of maybe three answers to that. I mean, one is that Oz is uh about as close uh as we get to a Gandalf, right, of our generation who's kind of uh defining reality and and willing to do it. Um I I think specifically uh there are two things that emerge in his writings uh that were really important. First is this notion of a civilizational moment uh and and and trying to articulate this kind of shift that I saw between the existential or the theoretical to the existential, or from the conceptual to the actual that we have seen in in in in the Western world, you know, where we wouldn't even have dared kind of imagine that some of these hypotheticals would become reality, to kind of put it in the starkest terms possible. Uh that idea of a civilizational moment, which is at the core of the film, of course, he defines that kind of in a cut flower sort of way, right? Where a flower is animated. Right.
Scott Allen:Yeah. Go ahead.
John Stonestreet :Yeah, is animated by by uh you know, by its attachment through its roots. But if you detach a civilization from those truths, those ideals that animated it, it it it it what does well does what most civilizations to the history of the world have done, which is fade away, die, or even worse, is subject to revolution. And revolution almost always ends poorly. I think there's like one good example in human history and then a whole lot of bad ones. And uh but but that's really the moment we we were in. And I thought it really did explain in in a powerful way. But the other part of it, which I've I've really uh have only seen in um in Oz's book, The Call. And I've been struck by this for a really long time. Um uh the idea of calling for Christians is oftentimes around the work that we do. And you know, I think there's been really important uh observations that have been given by many, many people that, you know, we're it's not just spiritual callings, that all work is God's work, that there's no secular secular, sacred divide. All these are really important concepts. But in his book, The Call Oz says, one of the things that keeps Christians from taking seriously the idea of calling is that they haven't understood the seriousness of the hour, or as Oz says it in his great accent, the hour, you know. Um and this is the this idea that we have been called to a particular time in a particular place. Um to me is so absolutely critical because I think most people think of civilizations as bigger uh than the dignity or worth of the individual. I think most people think of civilizations as kind of governed by the mindless forces of history because a lot of us have embraced the secularism of our age uh unwittingly. We don't actually think about uh human activity and human uh uh the the freedom that God has given us, made in his image to actually move the forces of history. It's kind of like we're we're hapless victims of whatever happens. And then, you know, Paul jumps into the middle of this in Acts 17 and says, at just the right time, or you know, God has chosen the exact times and the exact places uh for you. And and so in other words, we're not just called to work, although we are. We're not just called to ministry that we are, we're not just called to certain relationships or certain acts of charity, although we are. We're called to a particular time and place in history. So if Oz is right on those two points, we're in an incredible moment in history, right? The kind that we look back on in history books and museums and things like that. And here we are with the the the biggest, most uh uh uh forceful civilization in the history of the world, the Western and Western culture, at a at a crisis point, at literally a point where we're on a uh a suicide path. Right. Having yeah, detached. And this is uh, you know, the other historian Arnold Toynbee, right, who said that most civilizations aren't aren't murdered, they commit suicide, and we're in the the that that that sort of uh path. But that God called us to this moment. So what does that mean? Is renewal possible? Particularly since Paul in another place, 2 Corinthians 5, describes the Christian life as a ministry of reconciliation. So is there a renewal or restoration, reconciliation work that we could do at such a broken time? And I think that's that's really what what this has been about.
Scott Allen:Yeah, you know, the the the idea of a cut flower, you know, has always struck me as being really profound and and very true that once a flower is cut, uh is uprooted from the soil, it's you can still put it in a vase and water and it's gonna look beautiful for a time. Um but at some point it dies. Uh and and um you know it's such an apt metaphor for for culture, a culture that was rooted in the Bible, as our Western culture was, uh, but then it was uprooted. And I think what's tricky is that it goes on looking, you know, it retains a a lot of the uh the values and the the kind of ways of thinking and understanding the world that it did at the time that it was rooted in the Bible. But at some point, you know, it dies. And Oz's basic, I think, message in the book is that we're at that time. This is the time.
John Stonestreet :And and it and it doesn't happen at the same pace. You know, in in the in the film, he he quotes uh uh maybe it's uh a a poet, I can't remember who it is that he quotes, but he you know he talks about old age as happening gradually, then suddenly. Right. And I think civilizational collapse happens that way. I agree. Schaefer, of course, was talking about back in the 60s, about that the West was living off. Borrowed time. Yeah, borrowed time. And and and and we were spending down the bank account, you know, to borrow the kind of the concept of Patiram Sirokin, the Harvard sociologist, where you continually pull out of a culture in a sensei culture, you're always pulling out and you're never investing back in. You're living for the moment, not the future. You're thinking about immediate gratification, not long-term health and well-being. But you know, that's the thing, is it it can stay pretty. You can kind of it's interesting to me, like British historian, the British historian Tom Holland and others who are actually reminding all of us like all these good things that you think came from secularism, they did not come from secularism. All these things that you think came out of some kind of ancient pagan, you know. Came out of the Bible. It came out of the Bible. There's no other source for it. And um you detach from that and you know you age slowly and then quickly, and I think that's what's happening.
Darrow Miller:It was um I think Vishel Mongalawadi took um Peterson to the Museum of the Bible. I think that was how it happened. And um Peterson came out of that museum and said, you know, the Bible is not merely true, it is the very foundation for the concept of truth. And I think that I'd never heard anyone say that before. I'd never heard a uh seminary professor say it, I've never heard a pastor say it. And it came from the lips of Jordan Peterson. And he understood better than most Christians, and this is where we need to go. The Bible is the very source of truth, and truth is the foundation for freedom. And if you want a free society, you need to root it in truth. You have to root it in the the biblical ethic, the biblical view of reality.
John Stonestreet :Yeah. Well, you know, there's only one uh worldview that could build such a remarkable, I mean, not that the Western world has been perfect, but it you know, it's like democracy. It's the worst other than all the others, right? I mean, the the Western world has freed more slaves, uh uh afforded more people rights, uh lifted more people out of poverty, uh, extended the life expectancy through health care and emergency care and everything else, and uh, you know, grounded uh the this kind of thing that we now take for granted of human dignity. But it I think the same thing is true in this moment. You know, Oz in the film says we've got one of three directions, and that is um decline, uh, which is the most likely path, revolution, which usually again doesn't end well, or renewal. Well, listen, if it's gonna be renewal, uh, and I you know, I I don't think the film promises that. I don't I don't think the Bible promises it that. I think God runs that and he uses our obedience. He's clear that we're supposed to be agents of renewal and how he uses that really is up to him. Um but if if there's gonna be any sense of renewal, there's only one source for that too. And it's the same source that you know gave birth to some of these concepts in the first place. That's right. It's not gonna come uh outside of the Christian worldview. It's not gonna come outside of the solid ground of truth and uh and so on. So um, you know, that's really the the the the the push. I think it's also though what we wanted to do too is you know talk about what faithfulness looks like in such a civilizational moment as this. And so, you know, the first uh part of the film, I think, you know, Scott, you're exactly right. I mean, there's a whole lot of Os Guinness talking to some remarkable thought leaders in uh in in the Western world, observers of the Western world, some believers, some not believers, but honest brokers that are kind of going, hey, this is where it came from, this is what it's built on, this is why it's in crisis, and really articulating that, I think, in a really succinct, understandable, accessible way. But then the question is, so we've been called here. What are we supposed to do? And you know, the idea is we need to be faithful truth tellers, and that's going to require an amount of courage. And so the film culminates. And we thought of, you know, we could tell everyone to be truth tellers, and we do in the film, but it's kind of like, you know, the the truth project at a time when all of this stuff was so kind of theoretical. Now we've entered this existential crisis. We need existential examples. So instead of just saying we need to be truth tellers, there are five stories of Christians, remarkable stories of how truth changes everything, how truth can ground a life and a civilization. And that's the the brilliance of Christian truth is that it's personal, but it's not private. It's personal truth that can transform an individual, but also can ground an entire civilization.
Scott Allen:I want to talk about those examples and kind of how you conclude. I thought it was very powerful, but I want to go back just for a second to the cut flower, John, because you know, uh one of the things I've been kind of really anxious or excited to talk to you about is I watched the documentary, I think it was the same week that uh Charlie Kirk was assassinated, and the release, you know, of of this happened really close to uh that huge event. And I've been wanting to get your thoughts on what what was God doing or what what what what just what do you see is hap happening in the landscape. But but the cut flower, uh one of the things that struck me, and I'm sure it struck you and ever yeah everybody in the wake of Charlie Kirk's assassination was the uh b besides the event itself, which was horrific, was the was the response to me, which was almost more horrific, uh just how many people took to social media and were just fine with that and even praising that. Oh, wonderful, let's go assassinate people. Uh isn't it great that we were able to assassinate Charlie Kirk or that he was assassinated? And just the shocking kind of sense of like, you know, I can't believe people are saying that. But again, that to me is a clear indication that Oz is correct, that we're at that civilizational moment. This is a cut flower kind of a thing where before in a Christian culture, when it still looked like the flower, you know, people, Christian or not, would have had a check on the in their spirit on that murder's wrong, right? You know. Um but now suddenly there's not that same sense that they're used to in the culture. And I I was really struck by that. Just look, you know, this this is a clear indicator that we have moved kind of beyond. Uh, you know, we're we're in a the you know, we're in that cut flower moment where it's dying and and the the neutr the nutrients, the nerd you know, from from the soil aren't reaching these people at this point. But but yeah, I I think there's a lot of examples of that, by the way.
John Stonestreet :I mean, I think Kirk has been the most blatant, but you know, we are just coming out, and thank God we're coming out. That's another thing we need to talk about is that even when you know we started working on this film project, things looked a lot different than they do do now, in some ways, uh, you know, a lot better now. And you know, I think that's an interesting dynamic to see how God kind of you know has structured reality, how he's given humans the ability to recognize that to a degree. Now we shouldn't underestimate, and I think what you're pointing at is that Romans 1 reality is how good humans can be individually and collectively at suppressing what's true. Uh just yesterday, the um um um from when we're recording this here, the uh U.S. Department of Health and Human Services released a follow-up report on the transgender uh so-called medical care, and just says it's the most comprehensive documentation of all the medical evidence which uh points to how destructive so-called gender-affirming care, which is anything but is and has been for young people.
Scott Allen:And and and and medical professionals knew it. They you know they yeah, they were willingly again. This is cut flower because yeah, they were willingly harming the people.
John Stonestreet :And they told everyone that the science was settled and that all the experts agree and that you you know dissent needed to be silenced. And you look at the facts now, and of course they knew it. And and the the you know, the the ability of humans to deceive themselves is legendary. And you can live off of some of that cultural capital for a while, but again, it exhausts, it it runs out, and and that is a detachment from reality itself. Because remember, you know, when we talk about the Christian worldview, we're not talking about what Christians believe. I mean, we are hopefully. What we're actually talking about is the way the world actually is. What we're talking about is the truth. That's right. One of the, for example, the big uh emphases in the follow-up study to the documentary, uh, which is a four-part teaching series on hope, truth, identity, and calling, is what we mean by truth is not just Christian truths, in other words, individual truths, but the Christian story of the world. And we want people to know, not just that creation, fall, redemption, restoration is the narrative of the Bible that the Bible offers. Yeah, it's not truth.
Scott Allen:It's right.
John Stonestreet :Yeah, yeah. We want everyone to know that creation, fall, redemption, restoration is actually the story of the world. Like it is what's true about reality. And humans have an incredible capacity to squash that. But I will say, you know, when we started working on this project with Focus on the Family and Oz, it seemed like the transgender train was unstoppable, that it was going to run over every aspect of Western life and culture. And now we've seen the brakes put on. Now, uh we've we have a vibe shift, whatever that means. I don't think that it's accurate necessarily to say a vibe shift is the same as a revival. In other words, not running off the moral, the cliff of the moral abyss is progress, right? If you're headed that way, right? It seems like hitting the brakes is going forward, but it just is hitting the brakes. We have to reattach to what's true. And that's reattaching to Christ.
Darrow Miller:This is uh brings up something that I've been thinking a lot about. Everybody since Charlie Kirk's assassination, they've been talking about how there's so many more Bibles being sold, so many churches being filled, and there's a revival. And in one sense, that looks good. But in another sense, we saw that a similar kind of movement at 9-11. You know, people, kids on the street waving flags at intersections and the churches filled, and how long did it last? Not very long. And I think the key is what you're talking about here, John. It can't be merely a revival, it has to be a true revival will produce reformation. And if we don't see reformation in individual lives and in the culture, it's not gonna it's gonna prove not to be a revival. And that's where the change has to occur, and that's where it takes courage, and that's where uh people have to not just affirm certain things but speak them out and pay the consequences for it.
Scott Allen:John, I I just to pick up on what Dara was saying, I think that when we talk about I could just come back to the cut flower again, but a flower was uh you know, a flower did emerge, you know, in the soil of the Bible in the Western world. And that wasn't just an accident, it didn't just happen, it was because the church, Christians, uh over many centuries had a understanding theologically and a practice that created and built a kind a particular kind of culture. Um they had a vision, you know, to put it in our vernacular, of they had a vision to disciple nations. Um I don't think the church has had that now for quite a while. I think it's been lost. And part of the reason that the flower is cut and dying is is has to do with the church, right? We we've we have not been involved in trying to allow the nutrients of the soil to get up into the culture. We just lost the vision for that, and um, you know, uh at kind of its worst extreme, we almost hope the culture gets worse because then Jesus comes back and it can all be, you know, we can you know go to heaven. Um I I'm just curious your thoughts on that. Do we you know the a revival in the church has to be accompanied to me right now by a recovery of this kind of older understanding of what the church's mission is in culture? Do you? Think do you what's your sense of that, John, right now? Do you feel like, and I know Truth Rising is obviously you want to contribute to that, but do you do you feel like we that like another way of asking the question, John, is that a lot of these young people, let's say young men that are coming to faith, and they undoubtedly are, praise God for that, they're gonna be coming to churches, they're gonna be getting discipled. How are they gonna be discipled? Is it just read your Bible, pray, come to church, all good things? Or are they gonna be discipled in a way that actually begins to make a difference in the culture?
John Stonestreet :Yeah, I I think that is a great question. I'm I'm encouraged. I mean, look, you you know, it wasn't that long ago. The the number one trend when it comes to religion and society and the world was the rise of the nuns, right? The, you know, not the you know, the women from the Catholic Church, but the N-O-N-Es, those who would be unaffiliated and basically claim an agnosticism. You know, we had new atheist writers telling us that God is a delusion and religion is poison. And some of those same people right now are talking about why we need Christianity as the root of Western culture. And and they're talking about, you know, even liking Christmas carols in the case of Richard Dawkins. I mean, this is all progress, right? This is all good stuff. This is better than the alternative, I guess, is what we want to say. But it is a question. I asked that actually in a commentary on our breakpoint um podcast uh to uh well it's uh I recorded it a little bit earlier today, but it's gonna air is like, what are they gonna find when they get to church? And um now I'm I'm encouraged by a couple things. One, I'm encouraged by the reception to Truth Rising. I think about a half a million people have have have experienced it that we know of, and that number's big as we're hearing from churches and and homeschool groups and families and organizations that are showing it, and also within going through the the study afterwards. Um and you know, it is a way to kind of push that out uh to to recapture really the fullness of the gospel. And there's a lot of ways to put this, right? I mean, you know, um a lot of Christians have a two-chapter gospel, you know, sin and salvation. Right. And really what the Bible describes is creation, sin or the fall, and salvation or redemption, and then the restoration of all things. So we we have to have an accurate view of the gospel and how big it is, that it's as big as the story of the world and not just the story of the human soul. It's it's it's uh it's it's more than that. I I I think that um we we we have something just incredible in the world of worldviews. Yes, because we have a God who makes himself personally known, who reveals himself to us personally and offers a a solution to the the fundamental problem that every single individual has, which is sin, and is also the creator and restorer of heaven and earth, right? So both of those things are who uh uh both of those things uh about God are revealed to us uh by God. And and that's really uh what it's gonna require is that churches you know take seriously the fullness of the truth that's been given to us. Absolutely. And that the more that we moved into a kind of a seeker-friendly, uh, a psych uh almost like a psychological, you know, kind of form of uh self-helpy side, you know, kind of gospel. We've moved away from Christianity being true with a capital T. The truth rising name reflects that we're seeing some good stuff. You know, the Colson Fellows program, which is something that Chuck started under the name Centurions, uh, you know, we have a church affiliate option now for that where churches can embrace that and bring it into their own churches. And it's amazing to me the number of churches from every denomination that are coming and going. That's great. We need more. We need more in terms of discipleship. And that's really what's driving the the embrace of it is saying, I want more, we want more. What the discipleship that we have been providing has not been sufficient to equip people for the cultural moment. And you know, that's the that's the thing that I I see. Do we need more of it? Absolutely.
Scott Allen:Uh I I think you're right, John. I'm seeing those hopeful signs as well. I it's funny, I do see a gap between our kind of evangelical leaders who but but it seems to me the people in the pew really are are getting this. Um you know, they they feel like, yeah, the c we're at that civilizational moment. We we and I think the other thing that I'm seeing is that I remember in the early days, Darrell, you'll remember this when we, you know, we were doing our ministry, and very often we'd get these skeptical people, often missionaries, and they would say, What do you mean discipling nations? I've never seen a discipled nation. I don't even know what you're talking about. You know, can you give me an example of a nation that's been discipled? And I think what they had in mind is some kind of perfect place, some kind of like the, you know. Um, but I think what's happening now too is well, we're seeing, because the flowers cut, you have Tom Holland and, like you say, many others are now beginning to ask the questions, what why is it that we don't just look all go out and murder each other? Or where did these ideas of individual rights and of the value of individual human beings come from? And these things that we all take for granted. You know, there's another book called The Air, The Air We Breathe. It's all in the air we breathe, you know. Um, but people are discovering that you know that that's what it means, actually, to to have a kind of a leavening effect, uh, you know, to be light in a culture is to bring those kind of things in a way that I don't think they saw before. They just took all it for granted and kind of assumed that all cultures were this way or you know, would you you know but you can't take it for granted anymore now. You know, we're in a place time of stark relief. And that the hopeful side of that is that you know it's people are asking the right questions. Where where did that come from and how do we recover that? Can it be recovered? Yeah.
Darrow Miller:It can be.
Scott Allen:Go ahead, Darrell. Yeah.
Darrow Miller:No, I'm just saying that's where I from what I'm listening to the conversation, uh Truth Rising is pointing to that. Not that it will, not that we can say it it will happen, but it certainly can happen. If God can use his word and the power of the gospel to transform pagan cultures to uh civilizations, that same Bible and the gospel in a holistic kingdom fashion has the ability to reform whole nations uh that are destroying themselves. Will it happen? I don't know. Do we need to work for it? Yes, and I think that's what John is saying, and certainly what Oz was saying in his book.
John Stonestreet :Yeah.
Scott Allen:Yeah, no, absolutely.
Luke Allen:Yeah John go ahead, Luke. Yeah. Well, this just in John, you already brought this up, but this brings up the the question of what now, what can we do? And in in the film, this is where Oz Guinness quoted Francis Schaefer's famous quote, There are no little people, which is one of my favorite quotes, because I'm a little person. Or I feel like a little person, but I'm not. And it's good to be reminded of that. We all have much more of an effect on this world than we often think we do.
John Stonestreet :And well, I mean, that that's really at the heart of those five stories, right? There's some that are larger than life. Ian Hersey Ali, you know, is one of the most important in intellectuals of our generation. What's interesting, though, is that we had really um aimed her at the first part of the documentary talking about Western culture. And then even as we were uh getting uh those interviews and she was contributing there, the story of her personal conversion to Christ and the difference that that was making in her perspective was coming to light. And then we're like, well, we gotta we gotta talk about this because, you know, as she says, so clear, and she's a personal example as well as a civilizational example. You know, her story starts with radical Islam, then goes to new atheism, and then ends in Christianity. And there's this wonderful line where she looks at the camera and she says, What I was really looking for is freedom, and now I'm free. Yeah, I love it. Right? And and and that is the source of freedom. But you know, to your point, Luke, about there's no little Christians, um and I I'm I'm I'm I'm uh biased on this story just because I I know Jack Phillips. He's a he's a friend. I uh have gotten to know him over the last decade of the probably 10 of the 13 years he's been, you know, targeted by the state of Colorado. And I I I go back to, you know, seeing his story in the newspaper, the actual physical newspaper, you know, uh uh 13 years ago, if you remember what those are. And um you know what's amazing uh there, Luke, is at the time there was a whole lot of people who said you should just bake the cake. Remember he Jack is owner of Masterpiece Cake Shop. He was um asked to bake a same-sex wedding cake. At a time, by the way, when Colorado didn't even have same-sex weddings, that was a bizarre part of the whole deal. But a whole lot of people said that's what Jesus would have done. And I look back at that. Um I mean, Jack is really, really good at what he does, but if he had baked that cake, we would have never known his name.
Darrow Miller:Yeah, it's true.
John Stonestreet :And it it wouldn't have made a bit of difference in the world, honestly, if he'd have just baked the cake in the larger scheme of things. Because there, you know, it wouldn't have been a lawsuit, it wouldn't have been he'd just been another of the fish, you know, kind of drifting downstream on this issue like everybody else. And the fact is, he made a really hard, courageous decision to stand on the truth. And now we all know his name, and not only that, but he has been an incredible impact, you know, and he had no way of knowing that for the last 13 years. I mean, it was a relentless battle against him, against his reputation, against his business, everything else. And look how God used him. You know, and and that goes to Darrow's point. Like we don't know whether God's gonna use us to save Western culture or whatever, but we know God can be trusted. We know what our job is, and our job is to be truth tellers and then leave the results up to him. And I think, you know, Luke, your example, your your statement there about you know feeling like a little person. I I i if we just you just don't know what God's gonna do with with faithful obedience, and and that's really what we want to see. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
Darrow Miller:And that's where the whole thing that Jack has stood in truth, walked in truth in the midst of a culture that rejects it. And he has paid a price. And if he had just made the cake, he wouldn't have paid a price. And that's the issue today. It is the Bible that gives us the foundation to truth. Truth is the foundation for a free society, but truth has to be articulated and lived out. And this is where Vaclav Havel's words are so powerful because uh a green grocer, if he leaves the eclus in the window, he speaks to the world and he'll pay a price. And that's to me, it seems uh like it's not now just going to church, it's not just uh reading your Bible, it's understanding that the Bible is the very foundation of the concept of truth, and it is truth that sets you free. And are you willing to speak truth in the midst of this culture that is out to destroy you?
John Stonestreet :Yeah. Well, and and and listen, there there the other way uh is to uh you know use truth as a as a bludgeon to beat people over the head, and Jack is proof that truth and love are not contradictory at all. That's right. And we were told that. I mean, yeah, I just I I Jack's story, hearing it again and and and listening to him put it all together and working on this project, it just I just remember how many people said that he's gonna turn people away from the gospel. No. People said the same thing of Charlie Kerr that he's turning people away from the gospel. God used his death for the single largest evangelistic event in human history. Like our math has been way off on this. Our assumptions have been upside down. Truth and love are not contradictory. They're not. You don't have relationships, they define each other. That's exactly right. And they're both built based in the person of Jesus Christ. There's another story uh that we tell in the film of Chloe Cole. And what I love about Chloe's story, there's so many things I love about Chloe's story, is that, you know, first, that that r redemption is possible. I mean, she was one of the many, many, many victims of one of the great lies of recent years that a kid can actually be born into the wrong body. To the point, she was so deceived that at age 15 she had a double mastectomy. I mean, just the permanent damage done by believing this and medical professionals, you know, manipulating her parents, the whole thing's in there in the film. It's a crazy, incredible story. And and you know, that was another one where we were told, you know, well, you you can't make a big deal about that because that'll push people away from Jesus. Well, Chloe came to the truth about her body, and from that she came to the truth about who created her body.
Darrow Miller:Yeah, yeah.
John Stonestreet :And and we were told that's not the way this happens. And I I just I just the the pick and truth.
Scott Allen:You're putting your finger on another shift that's happening right now, John. And yeah, I'm I'm glad you are, because uh the way I kind of look at the lay of the land on the part of the evangelical church is that for a long time, I mean for 80 years or longer, there was this kind of, like you say, two-chapter kind of approach, you know, and getting people saved and getting them to heaven was all that we needed to worry about, and anything that had to do with the culture wasn't our business. That's what secular people and social gospel people were concerned about. But then that changed, right? You know, and and uh there was this kind of shift and change with Tim Keller, and you know, God bless Tim Keller, uh the late Tim Keller, he did a lot of good things, but I think he was behind a lot of this kind of approach to evangelism that was, you know, more or less just be nice, you know, and just be winsome, etc. Um that's how we don't engage in the culture, be out there, especially in elite circles, if you can, um kind of culture changes from the top down, and then be very nice and don't uh rock the boat, you know, so to speak, and then people will be open. But I I feel like with Charlie Kirk, like you say, we're uh we're we're kind of coming to a reckoning with that, going, that you know, doesn't seem to be the the way that this is going to change. And your examples in Truth Rising are are taking that other approach. I I love the examples so much, the stories of Jack Phillips and uh I like them because they all followed a similar tr trajectory. They faced a crisis uh that required real courage um and faith. You know, um, will I bake that cake? It's gonna potentially wreck my business, ruin my life. But they did it, and then that wasn't the end. They were because they were able to kind of step out on the water, so to speak, like that, they saw God work in a way he would never have done before, just what you were saying, John. And you never see that, you never experience that the reality of the power of God unless you take that step. I was talking to a guy here in Bend at church recently, and he's on the city council, and he said, I was talking about truth telling just like we're talking about now on the LGBTQ. It was a trans issue, and you know, it's big in Oregon, and you know, it's big in the Bend City Council. And he said, Listen, if I spoke up as a Christian on this, I would lose my job. What do you, you know, and I was I'm sympathetic when I hear him, I'm like, you probably will, like if you speak up, you know. But I also wanted to say you need to speak up in love and trust God and see what he's gonna do, right? And you may lose your job, and it may not, you know, I can't guarantee what's gonna happen. But if you don't speak up, I know what's gonna happen. Nothing's gonna change, right?
John Stonestreet :No, I it it it's exactly right. And I you know, it it it's hard to tell somebody else kind of the extent what their obedience should look like, but I do think we have completely lost uh what I've called in other places a theology of getting fired, you know, like when is the the most important thing to do? But but but part of that is can you trust the Lord? And exactly. You know, that's certainly Jack's story, that's certainly uh Katie Fowl's story. I I love because she was in the Pacific Northwest too, or is even still is, one of the great uh champions of uh children's rights of our generation, just a force of nature, literally. And you know, she was outed um uh from her kind of really small anonymous blog where you know basically the threat of you know could uh uh uh uh from from a prominent gay blogger to dox her entire community and you know, expose her. And God bless her, the elders at her church who came around her and said, Don't stop. We got your back, we're with you. And you just think, well, because of that, what God intended for evil, or sorry, what the enemy intended for evil, God turned around for good, and her platform and her influence and uh her courage has just gone to a new level. And that's you know, that's another story that that gets told. God is tr trusted, you know, is tr is trustworthy.
Scott Allen:Um absolutely I think another good uh thing that you're bringing up here, John, is that we need each other in those times of crisis when courage is called for. We need each other to stand around us and go, I've got you. We'll go through this together. It's hard to do it on your own.
John Stonestreet :You know, it is. It is, and especially if you're facing kind of loss of employment and and you know, uh broken relationships and and and so on. Um and you know, there was a real way that I think that intimidation worked in in the church. I'm I am seeing hopeful signs of more Christians willing to speak out. That's part of, you know, certainly the Charlie Kirk effect. But there were some examples of it before that as well, and and and I'm I'm hoping God is is moving and and and working. Um because you know it's it's interesting. We are seeing young people, we are seeing young men looking for this kind of thing. And if you can give them a courageous form of Christianity, they're all in, you know. And um I think we're gonna see an incredible growth. So it's it's a moment. Chuck Olson, you know, often would say that what we need most right now is for the church to just be the church. And this is what it means for the church to be the church.
Scott Allen:Well, John, I want to really thank you uh for all that you're doing, uh, both at the Colson Center and with this new project, Truth Rising. I want to encourage all of you who are listening. If you haven't seen it yet, go watch it. Um, John, what's I mean, you can it's available for free on YouTube. Any other tips on how to get it?
John Stonestreet :It's on YouTube. Uh Truthrising.com is where you can go and and it's it's embedded there. You can find it on YouTube. You can also find it on X and uh just incredible uh response. If you want to have access also to the follow-up study, talk about the truth rising.
Scott Allen:Yeah, how people can access that.
John Stonestreet :Well, listen, the whole flow is real simple. We live in a civilizational moment. Uh God has called us to the civilizational moment. To live out our calling means to be people of courageous truth telling. Now, here's what it means to be a courageous truth teller. That's the study. And we look at four ingredients of you know what you might call a big enough worldview, a worldview that is big enough to handle uh the cultural moment, this crazy civilizational moment that we're in. And so we talk about hope, truth, identity, and calling. Hope being what is true about our cultural moment because Jesus Christ is risen from the dead, truth being the truth about reality, uh, identity being we're made in the image of God, and calling meaning unlocking how it what it means for us and our own spheres of influence and times and places to live out that hope, truth, and uh understanding of identity. So it's a it's it's it's it's it's not particularly academic. It it's it's but but we're trying to ground on these kind of uh set of essentials of what a Christian worldview is. And um that sounds really important. It's it's a great thing to hopefully spark a lot of conversation and and and imagination.
Scott Allen:That sounds really important. Well, listen, as we wrap up, Darrow and Luke, any final questions for John or comments?
Darrow Miller:Just grateful for your life, John, and for what you're doing.
John Stonestreet :Well, hey, listen, Darrow, I've said this before and I'll say it again. Your book uh and your work has been so influential in helping uh you know me think you you you know it's by by and large been applied outside of the West for so long, and that the the truthfulness of what you wrote about other nations has been uh you know revealed to be just as applicable and just as true in the Western world. And uh I'm I'm grateful you laid such important groundwork and we stand on your shoulders, brother.
Scott Allen:Darrow's got a book he's coming up, get the manuscripts complete. It's it's his kind of his version of uh this civilizational moment. John, look forward to having you read that as well. It's uh I think it's a really important book.
Darrow Miller:So I think I sent you a copy of it a few weeks ago in the uh the manuscript, unedited manuscript form, John.
John Stonestreet :Wonderful. Well, I will I will uh make sure that I have that and and uh uh and and look at it. Um and uh I you know it fits a lot of it. Chuck Olson would love would love the fact that you refuse to retire, by the way. He definitely does life. Yeah.
Scott Allen:John, keep up the great work. It's an honor to know you. And um uh, you know, I know that you're catalyzing a movement here. Just count us as members of that movement, okay? All right, we want to be with you on on that.
John Stonestreet :So well, Ditto, we we love you guys and grateful for you. Thanks for having me on today.
Scott Allen:All right, thanks for joining us.
