Ideas Have Consequences
Everything that we see around us is the product of ideas, of ideologies, of worldviews. That's where everything starts. Worldviews are not all the same, and the differences matter a lot. How do you judge a tree? By its fruits. How do you judge a worldview? By its physical, tangible, observable fruit. The things it produces. Ideas that are noble and true produce beauty, abundance, and human flourishing. Poisonous ideas produce ugliness. They destroy and dehumanize. It really is that simple. Welcome to Ideas Have Consequences, the podcast of Disciple Nations Alliance, where we prepare followers of Christ to better understand the true ideas that lead to human flourishing while fighting against poisonous ideas that destroy nations. Join us, and prepare your minds for action!
Ideas Have Consequences
Helping Your Kids Know God’s Good Design for Sexuality and Gender | Elizabeth Urbanowicz
Episode Summary:
Whose will be the first voice your child hears about sex and identity, and will it be rooted in truth and beauty, fear and guilt, or cultural lies and deception? In this episode, Elizabeth Urbanowicz, founder of Foundation Worldview and author of Helping Your Kids Know God’s Good Design: 40 Questions and Answers on Sexuality and Gender, joins us to help practically equip parents to confidently disciple their kids in God’s good design for humanity, marriage, and sexuality.
Starting in Genesis 1–2, we explore how to build a biblical worldview of sex and gender that stands firm amid harmful worldviews that are aggressively pushed on those we love. Elizabeth offers practical scripts, early-age strategies, and gospel-centered hope for parents navigating tough topics like emotions, pornography, and transgender identity with conviction and compassion.
You’ll learn:
- How to start conversations around human sexuality with your young children
- How to guide strong feelings through the Psalms
- How to prepare and protect against pornography
- How to address past sin with repentance and grace
- How to teach conviction without pride: recognize, remind, be kind
This episode is a field guide for raising children who know and love God’s design in a confused world.
Who is Disciple Nations Alliance (DNA)? Since 1997, DNA’s mission has been to equip followers of Jesus around the globe with a biblical worldview, empowering them to build flourishing families, communities, and nations. 👉 https://disciplenations.org/
🎙️Featured Speaker:
Elizabeth Urbanowicz is a follower of Jesus Christ passionate about equipping children to think critically and understand the Christian worldview. She holds degrees in Elementary Education, Literacy Education, and Christian Apologetics, and began her career as a Christian school teacher.
Noticing that many students—even those raised in Christian homes—thought more like the culture than Christ, Elizabeth created her own comparative worldview curriculum. Her program transforms children into thoughtful evaluators of ideas, shaping their media habits, academics, and faith. She now develops resources full-time to help the next generation become lifelong critical thinkers and disciples of Jesus Christ.
📌 Recommended Links
👉 Elizabeth’s New Book: Helping Your Kids Know God's Good Design: 40 Questions and Answers on Sexuality and Gender
👉 Foundation Worldview: Christian Curriculums For Homeschool, Church & Christian Schools
👉 Biblical Sexuality Course from DNA: Grand Design - Male and Female, Made in the Image of God
💻 Follow Us:
📲Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/disciplenations
📸Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/disciplenations
📽️YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/DiscipleNationsAlliance/
📩 Ask us anything: info@disciplenations.org
It's just this whole conglomeration of, you know, we have this secular naturalism, we have postmodernism, we have this Eastern mysticism, new spirituality, which is all combining forces to preach these false messages to our children, which their fallen flesh are already gonna naturally be drawn to. So we, it's so important, understanding all of these different worldview ideas, that we make sure that we are proactively preparing our children to understand the truth of the biblical worldview.
Scott Allen:Children are being discipled by the culture. They're being discipled. You know, I think it's so important for Christians to reckon on that. Somebody's discipling us and our children, always, whether we like it or not.
Elizabeth Urbanowicz:I think a lot of the fear can be taken away when we just think through the biblical model that we want to first start off just as God did, that his design is good. So we want to start off with what is good and just admiring the goodness of God's design, then explaining how sin has corrupted that good design, and then ending with the story of redemption. So creation fall redemption, you know, that classic worldview um paradigm.
Luke Allen:Hi friends, welcome back to another episode of Ideas Have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. As Christians, we all know our mission is to spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. However, our mission also involves working to transform our cultures so that they increasingly reflect the truth, the goodness, and the beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected the second part of her mission, and today most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God. Hi guys, my name is Luke Allen. I'm one of the co-hosts here on the podcast, and today I am joined by my co-host and dad, Scott Allen. Hey Dad. Hey, Luke. How are you doing today? Great. Good. Yeah, we uh we are doing good because we just hopped off a really fun discussion with um Elizabeth Urbanowitz, uh returning guests here on the show who just came out with a new book, I believe, uh, twenty days ago now, but it's it's still fresh off the printer. And we just wanted to share that book with you as we think it's a really helpful resource, um, especially for parents of young kids or grandparents who have young grandkids around, or just anyone who knows young parents with young kids, this is a helpful resource for them. We just want to highlight this book for you guys today. Uh coming away from the discussion, Dad, what are some uh key highlights that that you had and people can look forward to?
Scott Allen:I just don't think there's any more important topic for Christians, especially in the United States and in the West, to be dealing with right now than this topic of sexuality and gender, just because it's so it's such a pervasive uh area of darkness and battle and spiritual warfare for us right now. Um and uh we're all caught up in it. Um what Elizabeth uh Elizabeth is a real treasure, you know, her foundation's worldview um course and material, um, excellent, very, very practical uh for teaching children biblical worldview foundations. Um I just really can't recommend it highly enough. Now she's come out with a a book that is equally as practical, 40 questions um and answers on sexuality and gender. Uh I just can't uh uh recommend that highly enough just because of the practicality and the gentleness and the um the um Elizabeth is she's she typifies somebody who speaks the truth in love and grace um very clearly, but with a lot of love and grace. And so uh this is gonna this is gonna be a the a a really great resource for you to to learn more about on this podcast and then beyond.
Luke Allen:So So often people say, Well, Christians, we we don't have to we don't have to transform culture. That's not really our job. Um you're right, it's God's job, but we can definitely work alongside him in that work, and as we do uh create cultures that reflect more and more of God's truth, goodness, and beauty. It would be great for parents because they wouldn't have to have these really difficult talks with their kids when their kids are very young. Uh if you don't live if you live in a society that ex has a little bit more truth, goodness, and beauty interwoven into it. Unfortunately, that's not the world that we live in right now, um, which as a parent of young kids is not um is not too encouraging because I have to probably one of the least fun parts of parenting is prepare your kids um for the the sexual um hedonism of our world today. But we have to and we have to be prepared, and um this is the time and seasons that we live in, so being prepared for that is extremely important, especially as parents who have been charged with um protecting their children and leading them towards uh God's good design for them. So today's discussion was super helpful. So without further ado, let's uh let's hop into the discussion.
Scott Allen:Well, we're so happy today to have Elizabeth Urbanowitz uh with us today. Elizabeth, thank you so much for coming back on our podcast.
Elizabeth Urbanowicz:Oh, thanks so much for having me today, Scott. It's just a joy to be back with you.
Scott Allen:Oh, we're we've been looking forward to this. Um Elizabeth is uh for those of you who remember her from the previous episode, she's the founder of a fantastic organization called Foundation Worldview. Um it's uh specifically a worldview uh curriculum and course designed for um for parents, uh, you know, with kids, uh elementary school age children in particular. Um really excellent, excellent uh resource, and I want to encourage all of our listeners to check it out at foundationworldview.org. Um she is also the author of a new book, and that's what we're gonna talk about today. The title of the book is Helping Your Kids Know God's Good Design: 40 Questions and Answers on Sexuality and Gender. Great. I'm so glad you wrote this book, Elizabeth. Uh uh Elizabeth has a master's degree in education from Northern Illinois and a master's degree in Christian apologetics from Biola University as well. Uh, she began her career as an elementary teacher in a Christian school and quickly noticed that many students, uh though they were raised in Christian homes, were deeply influenced by secular culture. And when she couldn't find resources to help them think biblically and critically, began to create her own. And what started as an after-school class grew into foundation worldview. And she now develops resources, uh, her and her team that equip kids to think critically and evaluate every idea and to follow Jesus for a lifetime. Amen to that. Elizabeth, thanks so much for your ministry and your work and this exciting new book. Thanks for writing that as well.
Elizabeth Urbanowicz:Oh, well, it's all glory to God. He is the one that is gracious and sustains us. So I'm grateful to just play a very small part in what he's doing.
Scott Allen:Well, that's great. Before we uh went live here, we were talking about the book a little bit, and you said that uh it wasn't your idea to write the book. It was uh the the publisher's idea, Harvest House, uh here in Eugene, Oregon, came to you and said, Hey, we we want you to write this book. Tell us a little bit about that. How did how did this book come to be?
Elizabeth Urbanowicz:Yes, so as you just mentioned, it wasn't my idea. Um, however, the content, the idea that Harvest House pitched and then we eventually agreed to, was really based off of parents and grandparents and church leaders just writing in with a host of questions to Foundation Worldview, just asking, you know, how do we communicate in language that is biblically faithful and developmentally appropriate to these young children that God has placed in our care to ground them in a biblical understanding of sexuality and gender and marriage and family. Um, and so we had just, you know, answered a host of questions on different podcasts, and then Harvest House is like, we think this needs to be a book, you know, a manual that people can have and hold in their hands. Um, and so actually I was talking with a friend yesterday at church. We're we're recording this on a Monday, and um, he he has a son who's who's I think about six months old, and he was like, Elizabeth, I just finished reading your book yesterday. He's like, and what I loved about it is by the time I got to like chapter 32, he's like, I knew exactly what you were going to say because every single chapter answers the question in the same way. What is God's design? Where is this presented in scripture? How do we present it to our kids? And I was like, I am so happy to hear that. Praise God, because that is really the goal of this book. You know, not that people would be dependent on me for the answers to things, but that through reading this content, that we would just know, oh, okay, I go to scripture, I look at what is God's created order, I look at what is his design, and then I think through how to present this in language that these young children in my care can understand. So that's really the backstory behind the book.
Scott Allen:Got it. Well, good for them for reaching out to you and for and for you to take the time and effort. That's not a an easy thing to do, Elizabeth, as you as you know. So to write a book. Um talk a little bit more about God's design for humanity. That's really at the as you say, every chapter is pointing to that. Um, and I know that this is a deep question, but um, can you describe that design uh biblically just for us briefly? I uh you know, or as briefly as you want, I know.
Elizabeth Urbanowicz:Yeah, well, Scott, I love that I love that you started there because you know, both of our ministries are focused on worldview. And sometimes we don't necessarily think of like worldview and sexuality going together, but they really do because uh what our worldview belief is about origins, about how we got here, about how everybody else got here, about how the world started actually plays a huge role in how we view ourselves, in how we view others, in how we view our bodies, in how we view our emotions. And so if we're coming to this from the perspective of we think that actually the evidence in our bodies and our minds points to an intelligent design, which then points to an intelligent designer, and then we think that intelligent designer is the god of the Bible, we are going to view ourselves and our relationships vastly different than if our worldview teaches that we got here accidentally as the product of blind, unguided evolution. And so if we're taking, you know, this design perspective and then we're saying, okay, what is the designer's design? And we do believe that it's the God of the Bible, then we have to look at what has he revealed in his word about who we are and how we are to use this gift of sexuality that he has given us. And so right from the first chapter of Genesis, I mean, this is there's so many amazing things about scripture. It's it's almost as if God knew what he was doing when he was writing this. Um, but you know, right from the first chapter of Genesis, we see so much of our design. You know, we see God's design for the universe, for the world. And then in Genesis 1, verses 26 through 28, we see God's design for humanity, that God designed us in his image. That means we were designed to reflect him to the world around us. And he designed us as either distinctly male or distinctly female. And so, from the Christian worldview, being male and female is rooted in our biology. And we can't separate our biology from our internal subjective emotions or what might be guided by our soul. And so we see that right from the first chapter in Genesis, and then from the second chapter in Genesis, we see that God designed humanity with the relationship of marriage, and that marriage is one man and one woman becoming one flesh for life. We see that right in the closing verse of, or the second to closing verse of Genesis chapter two, it says, Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be united with his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. And so we're told right there what marriage is one man, one woman becoming one flesh for life. And then as we get into Genesis chapter three, then we see the fall of mankind. And immediately the results of that fall is Adam and Eve, who at the close of chapter two were naked and unashamed, they suddenly sewed fig leaves together to hide themselves from one another and from God because of their sin. And then we see through the rest of scripture that because of the fall, because Adam and Eve rebelled and brought all the rest of us, you know, along with them in that rebellion, that we humans have taken this gift of sexuality and we have corrupted it in so many different ways. You know, whether it's right from Genesis chapter four, and we see Lamech taking two wives to looking at the 18th and 19th and 20th chapters of Leviticus that outline all the different possible forms of sexual sin that someone can enter into. But then we know that this isn't the end of the story. God doesn't leave us here in our brokenness, you know, he sends his son to clothe himself in human flesh, to live the perfect life we could never live, to die in our place and to rise again to new life. And now his spirit empowers us after we've turned from our sin and trust in him to walk forward in faithfulness. Not perfectly, but to walk forward in ever increasing faithfulness. So I think that's just, you know, God's design in like a really quick nutshell. You know, we could spend years and decades, you know, diving down into that, but a really quick overview. That's God's design for us.
Luke Allen:Amen. Wow. Let's wrap up the podcast there. That was great. That's it. I mean, that's that's what it all comes down to. I love the name of your ministry, just foundation worldview, right? And and just like this book does, you need to get back to the worldview foundations of any topic, anything in the world, you know, worldview applies to everything, um, especially including sexuality, just because it's under such intense attack right now in today's world. Um, but I loved how you just start in Genesis 1. You know, it's that's the foundations. And sometimes people think of worldview as this topic, like an academic topic, you know, like it's given to us in college, you know. You go to your math class and then your biology class and then your worldview class. And we we we what you lose in that is the fact that worldview is foundational. You know, it's I think last time when you were describing worldview with us, you you talked about it as as it's it's equivalent to when you want to learn to read, of learning the phonics and the vowels and just the basic rules that take little marks on a piece of paper and turn it into legible words. And it's it's it's just like that. It's like if you skip the step of understanding a worldview of something, which we all understand a worldview of something, it's just not always the biblical one because we always have to go through that step when learning about something new. Uh but if we don't recognize the the biblical worldview, it's like opening a board game like Monopoly and just trying to start playing and instead of reading the rules, right? Like the world the worldview, that design, that framework for how to play the game is described in the instructions. Ideally, when it comes to something like anything, but especially with something as important as sexuality, you better read the instructions that God gave us first before you want to talk about that type of subject, especially with your kids. Um so read the instructions, and then from that base point, you can you can tell your kids, okay, here's the instructions. God's given us free will. A lot of people are gonna break the rules, they're gonna cheat at the game, but here's the instructions. Here's the here's the great, beautiful way that God created us to play. And you have to start there. It's foundational, it really is. Uh so I just wanna wanna back up what you're saying here. I think that's an awesome place to start, just driving it straight to Genesis 1 and then working through the the story of the Bible as you're talking.
Scott Allen:Luke, I was thinking of Elizabeth. Sometimes in our ministry we talk about um Genesis three Christians versus Genesis I Christians, and you know, very often I think uh evangelicals they they they kind of almost unintentionally begin the story with Genesis three in the fall, and then that sets up the cross and then kind of quickly move on to heaven. Um but what gets lost there is uh pretty much all, as Luke you were saying, the foundations of a biblical worldview, because it's all laid out there in Genesis chapter one and two. You cannot dwell on those two chapters enough because it answers the question who are we, including who are we sexually and what is our purpose? You know, all of that is answered, you know, in those first two chapters. Um and then of course the fall corrupts corrupts that design. But then the the the cross is what redeems and restores us to that design so we can live in it correctly and rightly, you know, not you know, not just escape up to heaven. So, anyways, just to add a little bit on to what you were saying.
Elizabeth Urbanowicz:Elizabeth, I don't know if you want to throw us your your own thoughts in here on that, but uh yeah, what you were just saying there, Scott, it reminded me, I'm pretty sure it's Nancy Pearcy in Total Truth, but I could be wrong on this. But I'm pretty sure it's it is her in total truth that talks about how we can't just start with Genesis 3, like we can't just start with the fall of mankind and sin because we have to start with the foundation of why our sinners are worthy of redemption. You know, it's it's this image of God in us. And it's also, as you mentioned, it's hard to understand the whole arc of salvation if we just think it's like, oh, it's just so that we're to escape to heaven. Like, yes, it is that we can live with God forever in the new heaven and the new earth, but it's also that that that image of God is restored in us. That, you know, like we we are told that Christ is the true image of God. And then we're told in Romans chapter eight that God is working all things together for our good by using all things to conform us more into the image of his son. And so we get this such, such a fuller, broader, richer picture, as you're saying, if we do look at that whole arc of salvation and not just, okay, you're a sinner, you need to be saved, now you get to go to heaven. So I'm just really appreciate for the depth that both of you take on this podcast.
Luke Allen:Hi friends, I'd like to tell you about our newest free online discipleship training course that we offer here at the Disciple Nations Alliance, called The Grand Design: Rediscovering What It Means to Be Human, Both Male and Female, Made in the Image of God. Throughout the ages, cultures have pivoted between two understandings of the sexes. Men and women are equal, and therefore they are the same or interchangeable, or men and women are different, and those differences are harmfully exploited to falsely claim that some people are superior to others. But what if there was another option? What if the true biblical understanding rooted in the Trinity provided a foundation and a vision for the sexes? Where unity and equality is possible without uniformity, and where differences and diversity between men and women is celebrated without superiority. In an age where views about men and women have divided the church and culture, the Grand Design Course offers an opportunity for everyone to discover with fresh insights all that it means to be made in the image of God, male and female. To sign up for this free video training course, go to quorumdale.com, or you can learn more on this episode's page, which is linked in the show notes.
Scott Allen:Elizabeth, I want to talk about um, you know, the the question here is that uh y we children are being discipled by the culture. They're being discipled. Some you know, I think it's so important for Christians to reckon on that. Somebody's discipling us and our children, always. Um, uh whether we like it or not. Um and you mentioned earlier th the biblical story, uh the biblical truth of God's design, and then you kind of contrasted that to the to the uh false story of uh the evolutionary story that we're you know we're just products of a purposeless process of evolution and you know meaningless pe bits of matter that somehow combine together. That is being taught. What are other um messages that the culture is teaching us, especially about sexuality, because it's kind of you know it's built upon, I think a lot of the false messaging about sexuality today is built on that evolutionary foundation, but it's gone way beyond that now, isn't it? Hasn't it?
Elizabeth Urbanowicz:Yes. Yes, it has. And I think part of the tricky thing is that you are current absolutely correct that the culture is just aggressively promoting unbiblical and unreality-based ideas, even to the youngest of children. But it's not just that they're pushing that, it's that according to the biblical worldview, because of our fallen nature, because of our flesh, we actually are drawn to those ideas, you know. So it's not like we're sitting here neutral and the culture is coming after us, but scripture is clear that our fallen desires, our flesh, is longing for those things that are contrary to God. And then we have the enemy of our souls, Satan, you know, and the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realm. So there's just a lot going after our kids at one time. And so as you, you know, brought up before, like it's it is this evolutionary narrative. But I think along with that, there's also the postmodern narrative that we cannot know truth, you know, and even it, even if there was such a thing as capital treat tea truth, it's inaccessible to us. So the best thing that we can do is follow little tea truth, you know, what we believe is truth. And then that's mixed in with so much of the Eastern mysticism and, you know, new age spirituality that has just infiltrated our culture over the past 50 years that we are taught from the youngest of ages to just follow our heart. You know, nothing is ever gonna go, you know, it's never gonna guide us wrong if we follow our heart. So we have the culture coming at us with these ideas such as, you know, it doesn't matter whether you're a boy or a girl. Nobody can tell you that. You get to decide. Only your heart can tell you whether you are male or female. Then we also have the lie that the highest good in society, now this this might not be outright stated, but so many things in the media and in other forms of culture are pushing this on all of us, that the highest form of good is sexual pleasure. Now, the Bible is not against sexual pleasure. You know, God is the author of that and God designed it for a certain comp for a certain context, the marriage covenant. But our culture thinks that that is the highest good. That's why right now it's it's considered like hate speech if you even consider that abortion is wrong. It's because if you limit someone's ability to have an abortion, you're limiting their ability to have sex whenever they want, however they want, whenever they want, with whoever they want, so long as there is consent. And so there's there's just this whole conglomeration of, you know, we have this secular naturalism, we have postmodernism, we have this Eastern mysticism, new spirituality, which is all combining forces to preach these false messages to our children, which their fallen flesh are already gonna naturally be drawn to. So we, it's so important understanding all of these different worldview ideas, that we make sure that we are proactively preparing our children to understand the truth of the biblical worldview, of what God has revealed about who he is, so that we're not just reacting to what the culture is promoting to our kids, but we're being proactive in teaching them this is who God says you are, this is who your designer created you to be. This is the truth, whether we feel like it or not. And so that's why I'm su I'm such a proponent of having these early worldview conversations with our children.
Scott Allen:Yeah, yeah. If I could just yeah, if I could just underscore a few of these lies, because I've put some thought into this recently, and you know, it's um yeah, there's I think uh the old evolutionary narrative, um, that still would give credence to your body, you know, because that's you know, physical matter and science or whatever, you know, that that matters. The postmodernism uh narrative has done away with that, actually. You know, your physical body doesn't even point to anything of importance. Um it's all, you know, it's all about your feelings and what you believe. Um and so I just think that's important to kind of underscore right now, you know, and that that's what leads to this idea of sexuality um not as an activity even, but as a as an identity. You know, this is who I am, this is who I strong, you know, strongly feel that I am and believe that I am. And of course, that's the you know, what limits that, there really isn't anything you can, you know, beyond your own imagination. This is why that LGBTQ spectrum continues to grow, because it's you know, there's no limit to it, really. Um and so th I think that's an important one. And then, you know, a couple of others, as you were saying, I you know, it's it was Margaret Sanger, I think, you know, the the founder of Planned Parenthood, um, you know, and also kind of the early proponent of birth control. She was the one who was this really radical kind of you know, a feminist that believed that you're you you couldn't be a self self-actualized human being without having as much sex as possible. Like it was kind of a form of salvation for her. And and so the barrier was pregnancy and birth, you know, because you know, that obviously puts roadblocks up. And so I think Christians need to know that so much of uh you know birth control kind of came out of that worldview, you know. Um you know, and not to just take it for granted. But then again, there's a there's the third, if I could just throw in the third, and that is almost, you know, if she valued it almost as a form of salvation, there's also this message out there that it's just a form of recreation or entertainment that doesn't really have hardly any value to it. You know, it's if you're bored on Friday night, you know, you know, it's it's no more it's has no more value than, you know, watching a movie or going to a football game, you know. So you've got all of the like you say, all of those messages very confusing right now. Yeah.
Luke Allen:Yeah, and one thing I've been thinking about too is because not all those messages are as compelling or easy to explain to kids, right? Right. Um I I've always thought it is kind of silly trying to teach kids about evolutionary biology, um, as far as at least uh um Darwin's theory of evolution, macroevolution, some people call it, uh, to kids, because kids know that's kind of it it doesn't really make sense that a butterfly came from dust. You know? They they see butterflies, they're like, that's pretty complex. I don't know if that could just poof into existence. That you're gonna try to sell that on me? I don't know. Didn't work on me at least. Maybe maybe maybe works on some kids. But w one one thing that really works on kids is that follow your heart, right? The the Disney uh statement of faith. And the that that works on kids, and once a kid starts believing that, follow your heart. It's all your your purpose in life is human happiness. Then that lie from Freud and Sanger of the greatest happiness you can find is in fulfilled sexual, you know, hedonism or whatever. That lie can really take place, especially as the kids are getting older. So I don't know, Dad, there's a there's a lot of different major worldviews at play here, but I feel like that one especially, that that follow your feelings, follow your heart, probably works the best on kids.
Scott Allen:That be true to yourself, be true to your identity, you know, the the yeah, that that that's very strongly believed and felt today.
Elizabeth Urbanowicz:Um, do you think if we're not careful, that like really easily slips into us and Christian homes and in the church because you know, for so long, so many churches or small groups or discipleship groups or Bible studies, we're talking about authenticity as like, you know, just like authenticity for authenticity's sake, where we are called to be people who speak the truth. You know, we are called to speak the truth in love. We are called not to deceive, you know, so we're not to to deceive others about who we are or about something that's going on in their lives. But sometimes even just this theme of like authenticity can make us think like, oh, well, if I'm feeling it, I better share it, you know, that this is just me, this is who I am. Where I think this lie so easily sneaks in with us as Christians as well. So we have to be vigilant at guarding against it and helping our children guard against it as well.
Scott Allen:Elizabeth, talk a little bit about, you know, kind of biblical understanding. How should we think biblically about feelings and emotions? It's not that, again, that these are bad things. God created us to be people that have strong feelings and strong emotions. But how how would you kind of how should we think and understand these things biblically?
Elizabeth Urbanowicz:Yes. Well, whenever I'm talking to parents or grandparents about talking to these things about k with kids, I recommend that they take their kids to the psalms, you know, and just read a psalm together and talk about okay, what are all of the different feelings and emotions that this psalmist is expressing? And just talk through that and then say, okay, was is there any part of this psalm that's telling us that it was bad for this psalmist to feel these things? No. And you can even take your kids to Psalm 62 where it talks about it commands us to pour out our hearts at all times before the Lord and say, according to this, you know, this psalm, what are we supposed to do with our feelings? We're supposed to pour them out before the Lord. That's what the psalms are showing us. And then it almost, it's it's not the case in every psalm, but in almost every single psalm after the psalmist has poured out their heart before the Lord, then they speak to their heart and they instruct their heart. The psalmist always instructs his heart, okay? And like, why are you downcast? Oh my soul, you know, and why are you so disturbed within me? Trust in the Lord. Um, and so to talk to our kids about this, is this is what we should do with our emotions. One, we should recognize them. We should recognize that they are our emotions, that we can't just stuff them. Because I think emotions are kind of like a beach ball. So you can even give your kids that example, you know, and blow up a beach ball and talk about how sometimes, you know, emotions they feel like they get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And you can't push them under the water. So if you try to hide them or ignore them, you might be able to do that for a while, but eventually they're gonna pop up and then water is gonna splash all on your face. You know, the beach ball might even, you know, hit you in the nose as it comes up. But then talk about, well, what is the right approach? Well, the right approach is to let the air out in the appropriate way. If you go in and you try to smash it, you know, and pop it, you know, then it is just gonna pop and it's going to explode. And we're not supposed to just let our emotions out all over everybody else, you know, by yelling at them. But we're supposed to pour our emotions out before the Lord. We're supposed to pour our hearts out before him. So I think that's the first thing, just walking our kids biblically through the world.
Scott Allen:That's so good. That's so good.
Elizabeth Urbanowicz:And then the next part is to recognize when emotions point us towards the truth and when they don't, and to give our kids that biblical framework, like you said, that emotions are part of bearing God's image. You know, Adam and Eve were not emotionless. Like, think think of what Adam said when God brought Eve to him. He goes, At last, this is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh. She shall be called woman. And Adam was so excited. So he had emotions, and our emotions they can point us towards what is true, as we see in Genesis chapter two. However, because we are a Living on this side of Genesis chapter three, our emotions can also point us away from what is true. They can point us towards believing lies or treating others in ways that don't honor God. So I think that's just a really helpful framework to lay up for our kids as we're teaching them how to process their emotions.
Scott Allen:Well, I think I really like what you you you brought up uh the psalm, you know, why are you downcast, O my soul? And you have David uh thinking critically about his own emotions. And I think that that's very important for us that you know we don't allow emotions to kind of drive the train, so to speak. Um we have to think biblically and critically, and then our emotions should follow that, you know, follow what is true. Um and I think that's where people uh often go wrong. They let kind of the emotions drive the train and kind of determine what is true and real and good and and they put them right out in front. Um but yeah, no, that's so helpful, Elizabeth. I think it's it's it's we have to value emotions and appreciate them, as you said. Um they're a part of God's design. God himself, you know, feels strong emotions. He feels joy and wrath, and you know, God, you know, it's it's not a we're not talking about a Buddhist kind of understanding that you should stuff all your emotions here. You know, but there's a real place for that. I want to uh just change here a little bit and just go back to something that um I I I puzzles me a little bit, especially on this area of sexuality, Elizabeth. I think that um you know, we were talking about how we are all being discipled by the culture, and I feel like there's such a blind spot um uh on the part of so many uh even devout evangelicals when it comes to their children about this. Um they they don't seem they kind of whatever passive or allow these cultural messages to kind of come in in whatever ways, you know, they come in all sorts of ways, right? Music and film and school and friends and social media and they they seem to just not be either aware or they don't care or I don't know. I it always puzzles me. And I I don't what are your thoughts on that? Why do you do you see that as a problem and what why why is that, you know? And what do we do about that, I guess?
Elizabeth Urbanowicz:Yes, well, I think there's there's usually one of two temptations when it comes to what's what we're allowing to influence our children. Um one of the extremes is just, well, you know what, it's the real world. This is not quite as bad as what they could be exposed to. So we're gonna engage with it. It's not gonna be that bad, they're gonna encounter worse, like, so we're just gonna go with it. And then the other end of the spectrum is complete isolation, which uh, we're not gonna let our kids engage with anything, we're gonna protect them from this. Where I think that we need to think of our kids, their development in developing a spiritual immune system. And I think we need to think of it similarly to developing our physical immune system. That those who are like, well, it's not as bad as it could be, we're just gonna like let them engage with this because they're gonna be exposed to it, would be kind of like akin to taking our kids to like the TB ward of a hospital, you know, or just like letting them sit in the emergency room and being like, oh, you're gonna be fine, you know, just sit there for a few days. Like, we'd never do that because we know that they're most likely gonna catch something terrible that their bodies are not going to be prepared to fight.
Scott Allen:Yeah, and just on that quickly, Elizabeth, because I think you're right about that for sure. And I think uh my own observation on that is that I think there's there's a blindness. This is this is an area that's changed rapidly, sexuality and gender and gender identity. And I think there's this sense on a part of of sometimes parents about that they're they bring their own experience in from 20, 30 years ago, whatever it is, and it's changed. It's not, you know, it was bad then, it's much worse now. And they they're just not aware of that, you know.
Elizabeth Urbanowicz:So yes, and so what we view as like not that bad, we don't even recognize is really like a poison for our children. You know, and then the opposite end of the spectrum, if we tried to keep our kids inside all the time and never let them be exposed to any germs, their immune systems would be so weak that then once we did eventually let them out of the house, they would come down really sick. And so it's similar if we try to protect our kids, you know, from all cultural influences. Where what do we do to develop healthy immune systems? Well, we keep our kids away from really crazy illnesses, you know, we're not gonna have them go sit in the ER, you know, room. We're not gonna go visit a family that has the flu and be like, well, just sit here for a while, you know, we're gonna try to protect them from that. But we let them out in the real world and we teach them to wash their hands and we make sure they get a proper amount of sleep and we make sure they have a balanced diet, you know, and other health measures. And so that's really what we need to do when it comes, especially to things about gender and sexuality. That we have to make sure that their spiritual immune system is built up. And what that looks like is first teaching them the biblical basics, you know, that's like the healthy diet, the sleep, the exercise, that kind of stuff. And then as we let them encounter things, certain things, we have to walk them through it. Like, for example, I recommend in the book that if you're at the library with your child and your child picks up a book off the shelf that's pushing an LGBTQ plus narrative, that you don't just either put it away or blindly check it out, that you have a conversation with your child. That you either have the conversation about why you're not going to check the book out and have them look at some of the pictures and talk about what is God's design for marriage. That's right, it's one man and one woman becoming one flesh for life, and it's a picture of Jesus in the church. Let's look at this page right here. Who is in this family? That's right, there's a daddy and a little boy and a little girl, and who else? And another daddy. Is that God's design for marriage? No. And you know what? Since this isn't talking about God's design for marriage, we're not gonna bring this book home. So I want you to go put it back on the shelf. Or to say, okay, we're gonna check this out, but this is a book that I'm gonna keep with me and we're gonna read together. And then as you're reading through it together, talk about what God's design is, talk about how this doesn't follow God's design, talk about the benefits and the blessings of following God's design. So that way we're we're building up a spiritual immune system. So we're letting our kids be exposed to some worldly ideas while walking them through it, not just throwing them to the wolves.
Scott Allen:That's just so good, Elizabeth. I just think your your your your advice and your thoughts here are so helpful and practical. Uh, your illustrations too are are really are really excellent. Um Yeah, I think you're right about these two extremes that we want to avoid, you know, just kind of throwing them out there uh or you know, kind of isolating them. I think uh something that I've thought, you know, in terms of my own parenting is just I want to, yeah, they're gonna be exposed to these ideas, I but I want to be the ones the one that explains it to them, not not a movie or not a friend, you know, or whatever, you know, AI, you know, or whatever it is.
Luke Allen:Yeah, I I I yeah, I thought that was helpful. Yeah, could you tell us a little bit more about that founders founders effect? Is that what you called it? Yes. I like that. I thought that was just a helpful thing for people to keep in mind.
Elizabeth Urbanowicz:Yeah, so Luke, what you're referencing um is in the book. I know whenever I talk about this, I kind of shock people a little bit, but I'm always like, okay, hold on, just like let me explain. I recommend that parents have the first of many sexuality-based talks with their kids starting around the age of four. And I know most people are like, four, are you kidding me? Like, I was thinking 14 or like I was thinking nine, you know, not four. And one of the main reasons why I recommend this is what you just mentioned, Luke, just called the founder's effect. Um, my friend Hilary Ferrer from Mama Bear Apologetics is the one that coined the term. But the founder's effect is basically this psychological phenomenon where whoever is the first person to talk with us about a certain topic, to introduce it to us, that person naturally becomes the expert in our minds. For example, I just saw this in my own life two weekends ago. My car started making this strange sound, and I was like, okay, I don't know if this is like natural wear and tear since my car is 10 years old now or if I should go take it to a mechanic. So I texted a friend of, like, hey, can I swing by on Saturday and can your husband like take a look at my car? And she was like, sure. So I drove my car over there and her husband was like, Elizabeth, I'm happy to do this for you, but I'm really confused, like, why do you want me to do this? I don't know anything about cars. And I sat and I thought there for a minute. I was like, that's a good question. Like, why did I ask you to do this? And then I remembered that the first week that I moved to my new house, to this new city that I live in, I got a flat tire. And when I got a flat tire, my friend's husband came to my rescue and changed my tire and then instructed me which garage to take my car to to get like all the tires changed. And I was like, oh my goodness, this is the founder's effect. You were the first person in this city to talk with me about car repairs. So now in my mind, you are the expert. And so if we wait to have conversations with our children about God's design for them as male or female, or about the gift of sex within marriage, or about what marriage even is, if we wait to have those conversations until after they've already been exposed to something that is not God's design, they're not gonna view us as the experts. They're gonna view that friend or that teacher or that website or that influencer as the person who they should go to whenever they have questions or concerns or want to learn more. Where we have to make sure that we are really capitalizing on this very small window of opportunity to make sure that our children view us as the experts in this topic and the ones who they come to with all of their questions, concerns, or uncertainties.
Scott Allen:Excellent.
Luke Allen:That's great. I uh when when my wife and I picked up the book and and uh I think you you addressed that right at the beginning of when you should start talking to your kids about these things, age four. We have a our oldest is two and a half, and we're like, well, it's coming up. But I I I honestly I wasn't surprised by that age just because of uh our world is crazy right now, and being a dad, it's my job to be the chief protector over our household, and just understanding that these ideas, especially where I live, are gonna be of influencing my kids. They already are probably. And I want to make sure that I'm the first one, the first gatekeeper to address these things with my children. I think most boys who get addicted to pornography are exposed at the age of eight. I I'm I'm sure you've heard that stat before. Eight, you know, not not not sixteen and not fourteen. Um so I want to make sure that they're well prepared for when that exposure happens, because it it will. And I just want to make sure that that um me as a protector can can guard them against that. So I think that's really helpful for parents to understand. Like start young. And it doesn't have to be crazy. I like the way you walk it walk through these conversations in the book, very practically, kind of back and forth even um for parents. But yeah, be prepared, start young. And if you don't, you you address that also, how to kind of play catch up, and that's that's totally fine too. There's grace there, but um if you can begin these conversations young. Um just the subtitle of this book, I'm looking at it right now. Forty Questions and Answers on Sexuality and Gender. I love that layout, nice and simple. Um we don't have time to cover all these today, but just for people who are interested in this book, again, the name of this book is Helping Your Kids Know God's Good Design. Uh 40 Questions and Answers for Sexuality and Gender. On Sexuality and Gender, sorry. Um could you just give us a little anecdote of what these questions are? Probably, you know, what's what's your top five and uh just how did you how did you land on these questions?
Elizabeth Urbanowicz:Yes, well, top five, I'm like, oh, that's really hard. I I would just tell people we cover every whole cover the whole spectrum of questions, like, you know, like we just talked about when should I have the first sex talk with my child, to the ins and outs of what should be covered in the first sex talk or the first few sex talks. Then we also look at how do we explain difficult things to our children, like homosexuality or transgenderism. Then we look at how do we prepare them for the day that they encounter pornography. So that's again, we have a whole chapter where again, I recommend starting around the age of four, you have the first conversation about good pictures versus bad pictures. So just like you said, Luke, so you're being a protector by being proactive and teaching them how they should respond when they do encounter a bad picture. Um we cover tricky topics like how do we help help our things, kids think biblically about a topic like masturbation. And then we have really practical boots on the ground questions like what do I do if my child doesn't fit in with traditional gender norms? Or, you know, is my son wearing a dress the same as my daughter wearing pants? You know, help me think through, you know, the difference between these about, you know, what do I do if my um, you know, my sister brings home her girlfriend for Thanksgiving? You know, how do I explain that to my kids? Or how do I explain that my niece is transitioning? And so this is really just designed to be a very practical boots on the ground. You know, it's not, it's not very heady or um philosophical. I love heady books and I love philosophical books, but that was not the goal of this book. The goal of this book was to be practical, boots on the ground. Here's why you need to have this conversation, here's what the Bible says, here's how you explain it in a biblically faithful and developmentally appropriate language. So we just cover the whole, the whole gamut of topics and really the way that we got these, I think all but maybe two of the questions in the book are questions that I have directly received from parents or grandparents or church leaders. Um, so some of them have been tweaked, like, you know, we might have received like 10 questions about a same-sex relationship in an extended family. And so we just boil it down, you know, to one example, but that can be explained, you know, no matter what same-sex relationship, extended family member situation you're walking through. So that's why, that's why I'm really excited about this book. And I'm just praying that God uses it to infuse whoever the reader is with the courage that his word, the worldview he's presented in his word is sufficient for explaining even the thorniest of topics to our children.
Scott Allen:Well, I want to be, I want to encourage our listeners to be thinking, even now as we're as we're talking, who who needs this book? Do you, do your children, um, you know, do you have family members, people in your church? Uh everyone needs this book, okay? So who in your circle of influence needs this book? I want you to go out and buy copies and give it to them because we need a book like this, Elizabeth, that's really practical and and and is really clear-eyed about the challenges that we're facing right now. And we all need help, don't we? This is not an easy subject to talk about. Um you know, I I like the way that you're you're you're even now helping us kind of reframe the way we think about talking to our kids about this subject uh in a way that isn't so fearful. Could you talk a little bit more about that? Because I think that it's just tough for people. They it's just one thing that they want to avoid or pass off to somebody else.
Elizabeth Urbanowicz:Yes. Well, I think I think there's a couple steps in this. The first one is I think understanding where our fear and sometimes even our sense of shame comes from, that this stems from the biblical worldview as well. You know, why do we naturally have a sense of shame or a sense of guilt? And that's made clear in Genesis chapter three, like we already talked about. You know, as soon as Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the tree and their eyes were open, they realized they were naked and they hid because they felt shame. And so if we feel a sense of shame or dread or fear of talking about these topics with our kids, it's because we are sinful. You know, it's because of our inherited sin nature that we feel this sense of shame. And so I think understanding that can help us identify, okay, this is where this stems from. That is not a reason to avoid these conversations. Um, it's also a reason to have these conversations at a younger age because if we are talking with a child, if we're starting these conversations between the ages of four and seven, there's only one person in the conversation who feels awkward, and that's us. And so it's so much easier entering these conversations when only one person feels awkward. Now, again, if if children are over the age of seven, it's still super important to have these conversations. It will be a little bit more awkward, but we still need to plow through and have these conversations. And then I think it's really important for us, you know, whether, you know, somebody listening is grandparenting and is guiding their children through this or is just guiding another parent through this in your church, or if you have children of your own that you're walking through this with, I think it's important to remember that we don't need to be perfect in this. That we don't, we don't need to have the perfect responses every time. You know, if we have a conversation and it goes terribly, you know, and we feel like we've messed it up, that's an opportunity to come back the next day and say, you know what? When we talked about, you know, X or Y last night, I did not do a good job of explaining God's design, or I did not do a good job of listening to you, or I did not do a good job of answering your questions. So, you know what? I really want to ask for your forgiveness. Would you forgive me for not being prepared for that talk that we had? And then set another time, you know, like tonight after dinner, let's circle back, let's talk about that again. That there's always grace, there's always that second chance. And then I think a lot of the fear can be taken away when we just think through the biblical model that we want to first start off just as God did, that his design is good. So we want to start off with what is good and just admiring the goodness of God's design, then explaining how sin has corrupted that good design, and then ending with the story of redemption. So I'll just walk us through really briefly like how we would do that with introducing our kids to the topic of pornography. So rather than sitting down and having this conversation saying, Oh, I need to talk to you about something, it's a very, very bad thing, and you know, you might see these pictures online and then, you know, you know, like and just fumbling over it. We want to start off with what is good. What is good is God's design for us and the fact that there are pictures and there are videos that are really good. You know, so walk around your house and look at all of the good pictures and talk about, oh, this picture in our fridge, that reminds us of our vacation at the lake last year. Wasn't that such a great time? God was so kind to give us that vacation, or you know, look at at your wedding picture and oh, this reminds us of when grandpa and Graham got married, or you know, when mom and dad got married, and just talk about all the good pictures and then say, God is so kind to give us these good pictures. You know, if you want to, you can watch a few good videos on your phone and then say, you know what? Because of sin, not every picture and not every video is a good picture or a good video. And then you just explain it very briefly and just say, sometimes people might take pictures or videos of others who don't have clothes covering the special parts of our body that a bathing suit was designed to cover. And then explain these pictures or these videos are not good pictures, are not good videos because they don't present the person in them as someone who bears God's image. And they don't treat the person who's looking at them as someone who bears God's image. And then say, if you ever see a bad picture or a bad video, there's three things I want you to do. First is stop, second is run, third is tell. Stop, run, tell. First, I want you to stop looking at that picture or video right away. Second, I want you to run right to me or to the nearest safe adult. And the third thing is I want you to tell me exactly what happened. And when you do, I'm gonna be so proud of you. And I'm gonna be so grateful that you told me the truth about what happened, and I'm gonna work to try to protect you from seeing a bad picture or a bad video like that again. And then ask them if they have any questions. You can answer their questions. If you don't know the answer to their question, you say, that is a great question. I'm so glad you're thinking about that. I'm gonna need a little more time to think about that, but we'll talk about that tomorrow. And then end by focusing on all of the good pictures or all of the good videos that you have right around you. So if we can just think of that, start off with the positive. What is God's design? Then present how sin has corrupted it, but then end with the positive again because God has redeemed us in Jesus and where we are right now is not the end of the story. I think that can take out a lot of fear if we just think of that design, corruption, redemption, or creation fall, redemption, you know, that classic worldview paradigm.
Scott Allen:That's so practical, Elizabeth, and really, really excellent. I think another thing that's challenging for parents on this is that, you know, this is just an area where we so many of us have, you know, we all fall short, you know, in different ways, right? We've all, you know, you know, struggled with pornography, or maybe we've gotten an abortion or whatever it is, you know, and so we feel hypocritical kind of talking about God's good design when we haven't lived up to it. What advice do you have for parents that struggle with that?
Elizabeth Urbanowicz:Yes, that's a question that we have in the book because it's a question we've been, you know, given many times at Foundation Worldview. And so um, what we encourage parents to think through is, you know, have I repented of this sexual sin? You know, am I in a place where I am, you know, maybe, maybe I'm not walking forward without stumbling ever, but I'm walking forward forward in more faithfulness, you know, than I was last year or the year before. And so first just thinking, you know, in our own lives, have we come to a place of repentance and a place of accountability and a place where we are, even if imperfectly, walking forward in sanctification? Because if we're not there, you know, if we're still, you know, enslaved to a secret addiction to pornography, or if, you know, someone who's married is engaging in just inappropriate texting, you know, with somebody of the opposite sex who is not their spouse or, you know, any other form of sexual sin that might be ongoing, we do need to make sure that we are in a place where we are repenting and seeking forgiveness and accountability for that. So that's the first thing that I always recommend. And then the second thing is that I say, you know, if you are in a place where you've repented of that, you know, you've received God's forgiveness and you are seeking to walk forward in faithfulness, don't allow Satan to use your past sin as a reason for hindering you from having these conversations with your kids. Because I've seen that in a lot of people's lives, that Satan just likes to use this. And like, how could you talk with your kids about that, you of all people, you know, you who've done that, you who still struggle with that. How could you, you know, so hypocritically talk to your kids about God's design? Where we are being hypocritical if we present God's good design and then we present as if we've always lived up to it perfectly, and our children, you know, must as well. Where we're not being hypocritical if we are presenting, this is God's good design. You know, we all struggle with sin. And if we sin in a way that is sexual, there is forgiveness for that. Our responsibility then is to turn to Jesus, to confess of that sin, to repent of it, and to ask by his grace that he strengthens us to walk forward in faithfulness. Now, this is a conversation I do not recommend having at four years of age. Right. But when children are older, you know, maybe like 11 or 12, when they're beginning to go through puberty, that's when I do recommend having just a very brief conversation with them about any sexual sin, you know, that you as the parent have struggled with. Now, again, we don't want to give them, you know, too many details. We don't want to give them details of who else may have been involved in the sin, you know, unless it was your spouse and you've both agreed to talk with your child about this. Um, and don't give them any details that are gonna cause, you know, images in their mind or if they ask questions, you can say, you know, I'm so grateful you're thinking about this critically, but that wouldn't be helpful for me to share with you or for you to hear. But we can be honest with them and say, you know what? Remember how we've been talking, you know, for the past six, seven, you know, eight years about how God designed sex as the confirmation of the marriage covenant. It's a good gift for husbands and wives in marriage. Well, when I was in college, I, you know, I chose to not follow God's design. And I chose to have sex with the people that I dated. Um, and you can briefly talk about some of those consequences from that, but then you're again gonna want to take the story through the full arc of God's story and talk about God's redemption and forgiveness. And so don't just place the focus on your sexual sin. Place the focus on, but you know what? I repented of that. And because of what Jesus did on the cross, God has forgiven me. So when God looks at me, he doesn't see someone who's a sexual sinner. When God looks at me, he sees Jesus' righteousness. Isn't that so amazing? So that's where we're placing the focus. And I think having this, you know, very brief kind of honesty with our kids is helpful because it's reminding them of the gospel. It's letting them know, hey, when you're really struggling with something, this is not um, you know, it's not unusual. This is a human struggle. Christians do struggle with this, but the proper response when we're struggling is to confess, to repent, to seek accountability, and to walk forward by the power of God's spirit in faithfulness.
Scott Allen:That's really good. The title again is Helping Your Kids Know God's Good Design. 40 questions and answers on sexuality and gender. Everyone needs this book. You need to be um reading it yourself and thinking about people in your circle of influence, your children, your people, and the people in your church who need this book. It's super gonna be super helpful and practical. I want to ask one more question and then Luke, I know you may have some questions too. But uh Elizabeth, you uh have a background in uh education, uh public education. You were a school teacher, right? A public school teacher?
Elizabeth Urbanowicz:Um public school for one year, but then Christian schools. And then Christian school.
Scott Allen:Okay, so both. You know, we hear, right, um, that things are pretty bad in terms of what messages are being communicated to kids in public schools, uh you know, elementary school, all the way up through high school and beyond. Is it as bad as we hear? And what advice do you have um for parents uh who have children in public school? Um what I'd love your thoughts on that, just because of your particular background in education.
Elizabeth Urbanowicz:Yes. Well, I think it really depends on the area of the country where you live. For example, I live in the southeastern region of the United States in a pretty conservative county, and I mean there are still things that I would really struggle if I had a child, you know, to leave them in that classroom setting that are occurring. However, there are a lot of things that might be happening nationwide that aren't necessarily happening right where I'm at, where my parents, they live in New York, just north of New York City. And it's kind of like the wild west of gender and sexuality in schools that, you know, their kids are used or are asked what their preferred pronouns are. You know, there are pride flags all over, you know, there are teachers that are openly, you know, engaging in relationships, you know, that that do not follow God's good design. And so I my encouragement for parents, um, you know, I can't speak into every individual situation because there's so many different factors. And so I always say, like, I can't give like this blanket recommendation that this is exactly what you should do if your kids are in public school or this is exactly what you should do if your kids are homeschooled or private schooled. Um, my recommendation is if you're married, to sit down with your spouse and to really pray through what are your top goals for your children. Because you you have 18 short years with kids. And so those of you who are listening and watching, you know, that are already raised kids, you know that those first few years of life feel like they're decades, you know, from when a child is born to when they're four just feels like it's forever. And then after that, it goes by in the blink of an eye. It just goes so fast. And so my recommendation is just that spouses sit down together and talk through what are our goals and then look, you know, especially if both of you are Christians, to look through do our goals align with the goals that scripture would have us have for our children. That really, biblically speaking, our our main goal should be to disciple our children, to make them into disciples of Jesus. Now, Luke, you mentioned at the beginning of this podcast, I think, you know, how we have free will. And so we have zero control over whether our children are going to choose to love and trust and walk with and serve Jesus all the days of their lives. But what we can do is we can set up those elements of growth in their lives. And so that's the first step is just to look, look at, you know, what are our goals for our children? And do are these goals biblical? And if they're not, then we need to change them. You know, we need to change them to make sure that we have biblical goals for our children. And then to think through, okay, how is this educational setting helping us meet these goals? And to actually think through that and list out, okay, how is this academic setting helping us meet these goals? And then think through how is this academic setting, how could it potentially be hindering us from meeting these goals and write down those things and then talk through, okay, what needs to stay the same and what needs to change based on the ways that this academic setting is helping us meet this goal and the ways in which it might be hindering us from meeting.
Scott Allen:That's just so good, Elizabeth. I love the way you're you're thinking so practically and um you know it gets it out of this discussion of this kind of the battle over, you know, where do we send our kids to school, right? You know, homeschool, public school. And just say, you know, what are our goals? Yeah, for discipling our children. That is our responsibility. What are our goals? And then how do we best accomplish those goals? Then let the chips fall where they may, you know, when it comes to answering these kinds of questions. So I just really love that. Uh I love that approach.
Elizabeth Urbanowicz:And I think it's easier to think clearly because it's not so much a question of public school, private school, homeschool, it's a question of discipleship. And how how am I best able to disciple the system?
Scott Allen:That should drive it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's so well said. Luke, what questions do you have as we uh as we wrap up today here?
Luke Allen:Well, I mean, and one thing just to add to that is if your kids no matter what educational track they're going through, there is a curriculum that you can supplement to their learning at Foundation Worldview to kind of overlay along their learning path and make sure that what they're learning is being filtered through a biblical worldview. So I highly recommend checking that out. Um I'm planning on using that and looking through that as my kids are getting a little bit older. Um my final question, this isn't a great final question, but I am curious to hear your thoughts on it before we wrap up. Uh you know, a due to human pride, which is one of the stickiest sins out there, uh, a lot of times when we learn about God's good design um and our kids hear it, uh you can easily put yourself on that pedestal of, oh, now I'm now I know the right way to live life. And everyone that's breaking the rules of God's good design, I I feel superior to. You know, just that's that's pride 101. And we can look around at the same-sex couples and you know, the grocery store or whatever our kids can, and they can see someone breaking God's God's good design, and they can f immediately hop to pride, which is not the right thing to hop to. We're we're called to love our neighbor. And um how how how do we go about teaching our kids about this in a way that they can still love their neighbors and their classmates and the people that are not following God's good design. And you know, I can only imagine I'm walking through a grocery store in ten years and my kids see someone who's not following God's design, and they point at them and they say, Oh my goodness, look at them. Not excited for that. Uh hopefully that doesn't happen. But I can I can imagine that happening. Um so so how how do we go about that teaching that humility along with these concepts?
Elizabeth Urbanowicz:Yeah, really practical question. I was just I was laughing as you you were setting up that question, Luke, because several months ago I was babysitting for one of my siblings' children for like a week um while my sibling and their spouse were away, and I took my niece and nephew to a fast food restaurant, and as we're seated at the table waiting for our food to come, my three-year-old niece stands up on the booth, points her finger across the room, and shouts out as loud as she can, they didn't pray before they ate. And I was like, oh my gosh, I'm like pulling her down, and I'm like, I'm glad you recognize that. It is important to pray before we eat, but they have to make their own decisions with that. Um, and so I think there's two things. Now, we're never gonna make sure, we're never gonna be able to guarantee that as we teach our children the truth from scripture, that pride doesn't sneak in because pride is just, you know, in every human heart. But I think there are two things we can do to set it up well. I think the is the first is the way in which we present the sin, is I recommend that that parents present the sin of same-sex relationships as saying sometimes because of sin, we desire the wrong kind of love in a relationship. And so then talk about how sometimes somebody might desire to take what God designed to be friendship love and turn it into marriage love. So a love between two men, which was designed to be friendship love, they might design desire to turn it into marriage love, or the same with two women. And I think when we present it as sometimes because of sin, we can, it's not like there are these people out there doing this bad thing that I want to let you know about. It's like we as humans, we might wrestle with this because you know the truth of the matter is some of our children are going to wrestle with same-sex desire. That's simply because all of us wrestle with sinful desire, and some people, it turns out that that's the form of, you know, desire, the wrongly ordered desire that they wrestle with. And it's gonna be some of our kids. Similarly, when we're talking about transgenderism, I think the way we should present it is sometimes because of sin, our feelings can trick us. And then we can talk about times when our feelings have tricked us. You know, we can humbly say, Do you remember last week when I asked you to make your bed and you didn't, and then I yelled at you? I wasn't treating you like you were made in God's image. And you should have made your bed, but I should not have yelled at you. That was wrong. I let my feelings trick, my feeling of frustration trick me into believing that the best thing for me to do is yell, and that feeling tricked me. You can have your child share times their feelings have tricked them, and then say, sometimes because of sin, our feelings about being a boy or girl can trick us too. Sometimes somebody's body might be a boy's body, and that's clear, God designed them as a boy, but they let their feelings trick them into believing that they're a girl, you know, and vice versa for girls. And I think again, if we set it up that this is a human condition, that sometimes because of sin our feelings trick us. It's not again like, oh, there's these bad people out there that do this bad thing. So I think how we set it up is important, and then how we train our children to respond is important. So in the book, I give um another three, I like three steps for kids because I think it's easy to remember for little ones. And so we give them a three-step plan for what to do when you see somebody who's not following God's good design. The first is you recognize this is not God's good design. The second thing is you remind yourself of the truth, and the third thing is you be kind. So if you're walking, you know, if you're going to the playground and you see a little boy who's dressed as a little girl, first you recognize this isn't God's design. Then second, you remind yourself of the truth. So quietly in your head, and this is something we have to practice because our kids are gonna verbalize this if we don't practice in the in the head part, you know, just say like a simple catechizing phrase like God designed us as boys and girls. God's design for us is so good. And then the third thing is be kind. So we would invite that little boy to play on the swings or on the slide, just like we would any other little boy. And so if we can go through those three steps, recognize it's not God's good design, remind ourselves of the truth, and be kind, then we're training our kids in how to respond in a biblical way. Again, this is not a guarantee. We still might have a child that, you know, stands up and shouts, that's a man dressed like a woman. And it's hard. It's not us that got ourselves in this situation, it's not our child that got themselves in this situation. It's just living in a fallen world. Um, but I think with those two things, the way we set it up and then the way we teach them to respond, we can help keep pride at bay as much as possible.
Luke Allen:That's great. That's a good that's a good way to explain that. Dad, um, any uh any final thoughts from you before we wrap it up?
Scott Allen:No, I just I again I'm really I just am really grateful, Elizabeth, for you taking time to write this book and to make it as practical as you um are describing it, just the way you're talking. It just it just seems uh incredibly I I wish I had this book uh when I was uh when Luke, you were going through all of this. You know, that I had some good resources, but this one just sounds really excellent. So thank you. Thanks for writing Helping Your Kids, Know God's Good Design, 40 Questions and Answers on Sexuality and Gender, and just for the way that you're communicating so clearly, so graciously and biblically, truthfully on these subjects. Um Yeah, I uh Elizabeth, what's the best way for people to get a hold of this resource as well as to learn more about your your main ministry foundation's worldview if they want to um just learn more about all of the resources and things that people can can access through through what you've produced here.
Elizabeth Urbanowicz:Yes, so the easiest way to get the book is just to go to your favorite retailer where online wherever books are sold. I don't know that it's popular enough to be on the shelves in those retailers, but online if you go to Amazon or Barnes and Noble or Christian Book, you can order um the book at any of those places. Um to connect with me and Foundation Worldview, if you just go to foundationworldview.com, you can find out about all our resources. You can also find out about the book there if you just go to foundationworldview.com. We have a link at the top that says books, and you can um find the link to your favorite retailer there.
Scott Allen:Soundationsworldview.
Elizabeth Urbanowicz:Is it com?com.com.
Scott Allen:Excuse me, I said org earlier, so sorry for confusing people. Yeah, .com. Um Elizabeth, keep up the great work. I'm just so proud of you and and the and your team and and what you guys are doing. It's uh you're you're just such a great resource for the church uh here in the United States and and abroad as well. So thanks thanks for your generosity of time today on the podcast.
Elizabeth Urbanowicz:Well, thanks for having me on again. It's really been a joy to chat with both of you today.
