Ideas Have Consequences
Everything that we see around us is the product of ideas, of ideologies, of worldviews. That's where everything starts. Worldviews are not all the same, and the differences matter a lot. How do you judge a tree? By its fruits. How do you judge a worldview? By its physical, tangible, observable fruit. The things it produces. Ideas that are noble and true produce beauty, abundance, and human flourishing. Poisonous ideas produce ugliness. They destroy and dehumanize. It really is that simple. Welcome to Ideas Have Consequences, the podcast of Disciple Nations Alliance, where we prepare followers of Christ to better understand the true ideas that lead to human flourishing while fighting against poisonous ideas that destroy nations. Join us, and prepare your minds for action!
Ideas Have Consequences
Cultural Relativism vs. Cultural Reformation in Africa | Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa
Episode Summary:
Should the gospel transform African cultures, or are they perfect just the way they are? The gospel goes beyond “getting to heaven”; it has power to reshape societies. Pastor Dennis Desire of Beacon Life Church in Nairobi joins us to contrast cultural relativism with cultural reformation. We explore how a biblical worldview confronts animism in Africa and secularism in the West, while also recognizing and celebrating the beauty in each culture. Salvation is just the beginning of a lifelong journey of Kingdom discipleship that renews minds, dignifies work and relationships, and redeems culture.
From job readiness and small business training to addiction recovery and early childhood education, Dennis shares real stories of transformation in Kenya, where churches equip believers not just for Sunday but for Monday and beyond. We unpack what it means to redeem culture without erasing it—honoring Africa’s communal strength and worship while learning from the West’s systems and structures. The goal isn’t uniformity, but unity in diversity under Christ.
If you want to see faith shape everyday life and society, this episode will sharpen your vision for discipling nations.
#KingdomDiscipleship #CulturalReformation #FaithInAction #BiblicalWorldview #AfricanChurch
Who is Disciple Nations Alliance (DNA)? Since 1997, DNA’s mission has been to equip followers of Jesus around the globe with a biblical worldview, empowering them to build flourishing families, communities, and nations. 👉 https://disciplenations.org/
🎙️Featured Speaker:
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa is the founding pastor of Beacon Life Church in Nairobi, Kenya. He is a dynamic Bible teacher and visionary leader with a passion for preaching the gospel of the Kingdom and transforming lives through biblical truth.
Out of deep prayer for Kenya and the nations, Dr. Desire founded Beacon Life Church in January 2013 in the Lenana area off Ngong Road. Since then, the church has grown into a vibrant, multicultural ministry committed to advancing the Kingdom of God and equipping believers for effective service.
Dr. Desire holds a Ph.D. in Ministry from the Apostolic Faith Bible Institute and serves as Co-Founder and Master Trainer at SOARising Kenya Ltd. His leadership, teaching, and dedication to God’s purposes continue to inspire many to live out their faith and influence their world for Christ.
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👉 Partner: Work 4 A Living
👉 Course: Kingdomizer 101: Truth and Transformation
👉 Book: Discipling Nations - Disciple Nations Alliance
👉 Beacon Life Church: Beacon Life Church
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And after we present Jesus, we are looking at what Jesus has come to do in their lives practically, which is to literally, as 2 Corinthians 10 and 3 talks about how the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty through God, to the pulling down of strongholds and casting down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God and bringing into captivity every disobedience when our obedience is complete. So now I understand the sense of discipleship is to teach the people from a mindset level to let go of one worldview and have entrance into another worldview, absolutely impacted and founded on biblical principles and believing, so that what they believe can actually transform their lives.
Luke Allen:Hi friends, welcome back to another episode here on Ideas Have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. As Christians, our mission is to spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. We all know that. However, our mission also involves working to transform cultures so that they increasingly reflect the truth, goodness, and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected this second part of her mission, and today many Christians are having little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God. That is exactly what we talked about today in this episode. We just hopped off an amazing discussion with a good friend of ours, Pastor Dennis Desire, over in Kenya. Uh, and we just, I mean, we talked about exactly the mission of this podcast, which is to seek to transform the nations to increasingly reflect God's truth, goodness, and beauty. For anyone who's new to the show, my name is Luke Allen. I will be uh one of the co-hosts today. I'm joined today by my co-host and dad, Scott Allen. Hey Dad, how are you doing today? Really good, Luke. Thank you. Yeah, it's always fun to just uh have a little post-show discussion with you after hopping off and that we use for introducing the show, but uh we both really enjoyed that discussion. I I'm sure all of you guys listening will as well. Uh, just to give people a little idea of what they're about to get into, Dad, would you mind sharing a couple of highlights from the discussion?
Scott Allen:Yeah. Well, Pastor Desire, uh, he's a pastor of a growing and influential church in Nairobi that has influence actually around Africa and even beyond. He's actually on his way over to Indonesia right now. Uh, he's somebody who's gone through our training and boy really understands the concepts deeply and really has owned them. And so when you hear him talk today, you're going to hear really the core of the core of what our ministry has been trying to do explained as good as as well as I've ever heard. I think uh uh one of the things I really appreciated about the conversation, Luke, it was kind of wide-ranging, but uh at the end we got into a really wonderful discussion on um what does it mean to redeem culture and you know, begin to see the goodness that God has put into the different cultures and the nations of the world um redeemed and transformed. And uh it's really a powerful kind of discussion to have with somebody from another culture, like he is, and and his perspective on that. So that was that was a highlight for me.
Luke Allen:Yeah, he explained he explained what we do in such an eloquent way that I was just like, wow, uh, had new eyes for it. Like, well, this isn't this is an amazing message. It makes me so excited to continue to share with people. I love the way the discussion kind of un unfurled though. We we started out talking about discipleship and uh what is biblical worldview discipleship specifically? What does that practically look like in a culture? This process of being transformed in the renewing of your mind, but not just transformed into a biblical way of thinking, but also this process of being detransformed from the culture that you came from in a way, pulling out the lies of the culture that you come from, pulling out the lies of the worldview that you have been rooted in and replacing those with God's truth. It's not pulling out everything from the culture you came from. There's goodness in all cultures to varying degrees. There's there's there's there's beauty in all cultures around the world to varying degrees. So it's not pulling that out, it's pulling out the lies and replacing it with truth. And uh what I loved about where the discussion went after that is we talked about what what are the goodness what are the good things in different cultures around the world. There's this kind of wrong view of missions that we've seen historically, where some missionaries go into cultures thinking, I need to bring everything from my wherever they're coming from, whether it's Germany or the UK, and I need to bring everything from my culture and just smear that over this society and you know, Paraguay or Kenya or whatever it is.
Scott Allen:And so that they need to, you know, go to the same schools, dress the way we do, speak the way we do. You know, it's it's yeah. And then today, Luke, just to add on, you know, we've swung all the way to the opposite direction now, where we have this kind of idea of cultural relativism where it's evil to even try to change anything about any culture. Culture is kind of pure and pristine, just leave it alone. Missionaries have done great harm by trying to bring about a change in culture. So um the the biblical notion is is is somewhere between these two, right? There are things that are there's beauty in culture that we need to preserve and respect. Um, and there's also lies that need to be changed, they need to be uprooted. Um, and we're gonna talk about that in this podcast.
Luke Allen:Yeah, so the process of weeding through those is is something we discussed today, and and we just ended on such a beautiful note of the glory in all the nations, the diversity that's God's put around the world, the beautiful diversity of the world is all gonna be represented in the new heavens and the new earth. And when I get to that banquet feast at the end of time, I'm gonna be eating sushi from Japan, tacos from Mexico, and pizza from Italy, you know, and it's all gonna be represented there. The glory of the name of the night. When I think of the glory of the nations, I always think of food too, Luke. Yeah, come exactly. That's gonna be quite the feast. So it's not we're not all gonna be just eating mashed potatoes, like it's gonna be the glory of all the different nations. And uh that was just a fun way to wrap up the discussion. So, anyways, without further ado, let's just hop into this fun podcast with Pastor Dennis Desire.
Scott Allen:Well, today we're thrilled to have with us Pastor Dennis Desire. Um, he is pastor of a really thriving and growing church in Nairobi, Kenya, uh, called Beacon of Life Church. And uh, from time to time, uh, we really love to have these opportunities to interview people who've been connected to the ministry of the Disciple Nations Alliance from all over the world. And uh, Pastor Desire is one such person. We've known him now for several years, and he's been a dear friend, deeply connected, and ministering in a big and really important, one of the most important cities on the continent of Africa, Nairobi. Uh, we were together with him and uh his wife Lucy in uh Ethiopia in Addis Ababa a few years back when we had our DNA global gathering. Uh, Pastor Desire, it's great to see you again here over uh over our computers.
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:So, so very delighted. So very delighted, Scott, to uh be here with you. And I so deeply appreciate the opportunity to be on the podcast tonight.
Scott Allen:Well, we really appreciate it. I know that uh the time difference makes it a challenge for you, so thanks for your flexibility. Yeah, I would love to get in. I you uh your church and your ministry is having such an impact, and you've been such a uh a great example, I think, of of somebody and uh a church that's really put into practice the kinds of things that um we really love and champion at the Disciple Nations Alliance. Let's go back and just give our listeners some background. Talk about your connection to the Disciple Nations Alliance. I believe it was Darrow first in his book, Discipling Nations, but tell us about that connection.
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:Uh well, if I may go back right at the beginning, this is 2015.
Scott Allen:Okay.
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:Uh, when I encountered my wife and I encountered uh Ina Richards uh from the Work for a Living uh in South Africa, and uh Work for a Living together with her church, uh Harvest in Port Elizabeth, invited us to do the training course to become trainers for Work for a Living in Arube. Now, part of the fundamental training for Work for a Living is Daryl's Darrow and uh Bob Moffitt's course, Quorum Dale. So Quorum Dale was our first uh encounter to the whole DNA material, and of course, uh that was so uh deeply touching. And uh as we continued with uh the Work for a Living program and progress, uh, I started seeking out to learn a little bit more about Darrow, and uh that's how I found out about the uh discipling nations, and uh I found a book and uh read the book, and of course, it tremendously touched my life, my theology, my ministry, and my preaching. And then I started reaching out to see how I can be able to get in touch with Darrow. Now, roundabout then is when you actually came to Nairobi because we did have a meeting in Nairobi for DNA, which I had an opportunity to be a part of. And uh that's when I started working with you, requesting you to help me get Darrow into Nairobi, and uh Darrow was gracious enough to come for what we called the gathering. And uh I mobilized some uh young people from different parts of Africa. I picked them from the universities across Nairobi, uh, having as many countries in Africa represented, and uh Darrow was able to come over. We went out of town to a little place called Nyahururu in central Kenya, and we spent a whole week with Darrow there, uh just sitting at his feet and uh and uh apart from the book, now listening to the man, and then of course introduced us to a lot more material, uh natural nations, uh life work, uh, and uh many, many, many more. So that was a really fundamental moment in connecting with DNA, and from then on, we've just been flying with that material. And I told Darrow that uh DNA material is uh my first study apart from the scriptures, and I think uh that's why the impact on my life and on my work and ministry uh has been tremendously anchored in the DNA material.
Scott Allen:Wow, that's wonderful. Thanks for reminding me of the story there. Before we go forward, you know, from your, especially that really pivotal meeting that you organized there, I want to just go back for a second. Tell us a little bit about your background prior to your connection with Ina and Work for a Living and Disciple Nations Alliance. Um, tell us a little bit about your family and your ministry, your work as a pastor. How did that get started?
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:Well, so I'm born and raised in Kampala, Uganda.
Scott Allen:Okay.
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:And uh that's where I'm raised, and that's where I went to school until about uh 2000. I started doing missions from in the country and around East Africa. And uh in the year 2000, in the year 1999, I came through Nairobi for the first time, and I started having my heart burn uh for the city. I would feel like there's something uh like destiny calling around the city. Many times I've come through it, going to other parts of Africa, but every time I would come here, I would really feel that there is a special connection with me and the city. By 2003, it became very clear that uh God is calling me to the work of the ministry full-time, and my foundation base would be in Nairobi. Uh so I share that with my leadership, where I was raised in Kampala, uh, who received it graciously, prayed for me, blessed me, and released me to mission work. And uh in 2004, I officially came uh to start doing missionary work in the city of Nairobi. Uh by then, of course, I'd met my wife, who is raised in Nairobi and uh a Kenyan born and raised in Nairobi. Uh, we were able to go through our dating season through those early years, and in 2006 we got married. Uh by then, we are doing a lot of work with the youth around the city, moving church to church, school to school, college to college, anywhere we had an opportunity just teaching and uh ministering to young people. Uh that ministry turned into a Bible study group that would meet every Thursday night because a lot of these young men would get uh born again. But because of not being really a part of uh a particular church, we would send them everywhere. Wherever there was a church available, we'd send them there. But after a while, you would see that we've sent them to be a part of a certain church, but they still, you know, hanging around and still looking for us. That's how the Thursday Bible study, Thursday night Bible study started. And that Thursday night Bible study, eventually in 2013, it became very clear to us uh that it would translate into a local church. Uh so January of 2013, we launched the Beacon Life Church, and uh it has become a platform of just uh uh serving the king and discipling young people, young couples, young marriages, young professionals around the city. And uh in uh 2025, we celebrate 13 years, 12 years. We celebrated 12 years. We're now moving into the 13th year of Bacon Life Church. And uh uh so we launched in 2013, and 2015, two years after the launch, is when I encountered uh the DNA material and the story I gave you earlier concerning Darwin. So I'm so deeply appreciative that this connection happened much, much early in our ministry, so that the foundation of what we are building for the kingdom uh would be firmly founded in uh a true sense of theological understanding and the practice of that theology uh for a blessing that would be for the discipling of a community and a nation to the glory of God.
Scott Allen:Well, tell tell us more about that. You know, what was it from that teaching that you received um first through Ina and Work for a Living, and then directly through Darrow? What was it that was so helpful or transformative for your work, your ministry?
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:I should say the wow moment for me, the revolution really was uh when when when the lights came on for me when I had Darrow talk about the difference between the gospel of salvation and the gospel of the kingdom. And at first it was a complex because I thought those two are the same thing, and uh we preach to people, they get saved, we leave that bunch, look for the next bunch, go for the next crusade, go for the next conference, preach to them, get saved, we celebrate salvations and uh move on to the next bunch. But now uh it looked like uh the difference was so big because uh in the gospel of salvation, you are working to get them saved and uh ready for heaven. But you see, when they receive the Lord, they don't collapse dead right away to go to heaven because they received the Lord, they actually stay right here, and many of them get to live many more decades after that. And then I began to realize that there is actually work. Salvation is the beginning of it, but there must be an end to it. And then the gospel of the kingdom then started to make sense that God has given us a mandate, and uh, once we have come into uh salvation, it's the beginning place for the experience of the kingdom. Now we begin to partner with God to cause change and become agents of his grace and his mercy and his love and his heart. Uh, so that as Jesus taught in that marvelous prayer, that his will be done on earth as it is in the heaven. So we become the agents that cause and uh activate that will to be done on the earth as it is in heaven. And when we begin to do that on earth, then his kingdom has come. And uh and uh you know, so that became a very uh a turning point for me to begin to see the difference and now to begin to purpose it, delving deep in understanding uh uh the practice of the kingdom, you know, as a pastor and as a young pastor, then to be able to understand discipleship, that it is beyond uh a class on Sunday morning with a few people, but it's a life journey. Uh, men and women that you're going to walk with and share your life with and pour yourself into them uh so that at the end they become uh disciples that are able to disciple others, you know. A beautiful verse in 2 Timothy chapter number 2 and verse number 2, when Paul is speaking to Timothy, saying, The things that you've heard of me, uh, you give them to faithful men who will also pass them over to faithful men, you know. So I began to see the movement of generations uh of this message of the kingdom because that's how the impact of the grace of God and the manifestation of the kingdom has moved from generations to generations, from the days of the apostles and the Ali Church to where we are today. So that was a really turning point for me.
Luke Allen:Hi, friends. I wanted to take a quick minute to tell you about the Kingdomizer Training Program, which is the DNA's most popular biblical worldview training course. It's available in seven languages and it's completely for free. And it's not one of those courses that's gonna take you months to complete. In fact, most people finish the entire Kingdomizer 101 course in about seven hours total. These courses were created to help Christians live out their mandate to make disciples of all nations, starting with themselves and working out from there. I would recommend this course to any Christian who wants to stop living in a sacred secular divide that limits their faith to only some areas of life, and start living quorum deo, which means before the face of God in all areas of your life. This course is great for individual study or it can be used by a small group or in a church class. We've had many churches use this course as a discipleship resource over the years. And by the way, as a quick heads up, we actually just began our next rendition of this course, so stay tuned as that will be coming out in the next year-ish. To sign up today for the Kingdomizer Training Program, head over to quorumdale.com and begin to have an impact for Christ on your culture. That, if it's anything like mine, is in desperate need for truth and direction right now. Again, to sign up, head over to quorumdale.com or tap the link in the show notes.
Scott Allen:Hmm, hmm. What you know, uh that verse about entrusting uh what you've learned to faithful men. I think a lot of people who understand the gospel of salvation, they use that same verse there to train uh the next generation of people to proclaim the gospel, right? And and they go forward and kind of continue to pass the torch to the next generation in order to proclaim the gospel. But what I hear you saying is a little bit different. Um, you know, it's not just to preach the gospel of salvation to get people to heaven, but then what comes next? And I'd like to hear more about that from your vantage point. What what does that, what change did that bring about in your ministry and what kind of in practical ways, you know, in the day-to-day ministry of your church, what did that begin to look like?
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:Okay, so thank you, Scott, for that beautiful question. I think uh the next phase from understanding that in terms of uh differentiating between the gospel of salvation and the gospel of the kingdom and how they merge and how one is pre the other is uh is the fundamental case on worldview that that that Darrow presents so so so well so articulately and so powerfully, uh, to be able to understand biblical worldview and its impact on society and on communities. Then I realize that I'm serving all my life I've served in the African community that is so deeply affected and influenced and guided by an animistic uh kind of worldview, and uh which then becomes a driver for the prevalence of dualism, uh, where people are actually believers and they come to church as believers, they are baptized and they have the beautiful Christian names. Uh, but between Monday and and uh and and and Saturday, uh they're very animistic in the way they think, in the way they believe, in the way they behave, in the way they live their lives. But then on Sunday morning, they are Christians to come and uh receive communion and sing the praise and give their offering at church and then go back Monday and continue to live their animistic lifestyle. So that became very fundamental in the presentation of the gospel for me, because now I had an approach with a target, the thing that needs to be disintegrated in the wholeness of this human mind is that after we present Jesus, we are looking at what Jesus has come to do in the in their lives practically, which is to literally, as uh as 2 Corinthians 10 and 3 talks about how the how the weapons of our warfare are not cannon but mighty through God, to the pulling down of strongholds and casting down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God and bringing into captivity every disobedience when our obedience is complete. So now I understand that the assignment is to actually begin to teach the people, the sense of discipleship is to teach the people from a mindset level to let go of one worldview and have entrance into another worldview, absolutely impacted and founded on biblical principles and believing, so that what they believe can actually transform their lives, so that the way they treat their wives is based on what they believe, the way they behave in all uh in at work in office is because of the way they believe. One of the very strong uh lessons I've learned from the material and from Darrell uh many times is the fact that ideas have consequences, and these ideas come from somewhere, you know.
Scott Allen:That'd be a really good name for a podcast, by the way. I'm sorry. I just yeah.
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:That's right.
Scott Allen:I'm sorry to cut you off. Go ahead.
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So so so that became that became the frame of uh of my progress in uh in understanding the material and how I'm able to disseminate it and and give it to the pastorate and the people that God has put under my covering.
Scott Allen:Yeah, you explained that so well, you know, I and I really appreciate you just your your you articulating how your understanding went from kind of small and narrow, our message is a message of personal salvation, which it is, of course, to a much broader message. It's not just it is that, but it's much bigger, it's a whole world view. And when we come to faith in Christ, uh we have to do this um process, be discipled in this process of putting off the worldview that we grew up with. In your case, it's an animistic worldview here in the West. It's a secular and a postmodern uh worldview. We have to put that off, and we have to put on a new set of lenses, a new way of thinking, and then live that out. And that's those are very different kinds of tracks, if you will, for churches to go down, aren't they? Very different kinds of ministry comes out of that, don't they?
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:Absolutely. Absolutely.
Scott Allen:Luke, I want to bring you in and have you. I know I'm sure you've got some questions you want to ask as well.
Luke Allen:So yeah, yeah, I'm I'm enjoying this. It's it's um it's kind of fun. I I sat down for this discussion and I said, I want to try to think as if I've never heard any of these concepts before. Try to put myself in the mindset of someone who has no idea what you're talking about. And as I did that, I I was tracking with you, Pastor Desire. I was listening, yes, I was nodding along. The part where you said, once you become once you hear the gospel of salvation, you don't just drop dead. What's what do you do for the rest of your life? I'm like, yes, exactly.
Scott Allen:You got a few years before you go to heaven in most cases. That's right. Hopefully, hopefully. Yeah, hopefully.
Luke Allen:So so now what? And I'm and I'm listening and I'm agreeing, but then the part where you said, and I think most Christians would agree with you up to that point is yes, yes, there is this um the justification step of yes, your your your salvation is sealed, but now what the sanctification? And most Christians have a basic idea of what that is, and that that is the discipleship journey. Uh, but but what does that practically look like? The part that really caught my attention is when you you you made it practical. You said in my society, there is heavy animistic worldviews at play. That is the predominant worldview in Kenya, in in your in Africa at large, uh, in a similar way here in the in the West, uh, the secular worldview, the materialistic worldviews are deeply rooted in our societies. So to so to walk out this this discipleship journey of sanctification, it's not just growing in your understanding of the Bible, memorizing Bible verses, reading the Bible, going to church. It's that's formation in the Bible, which is great. But you also need to go through this process of counterformation in the worldviews that you already are entangled in. It's that it's Romans 12, right? Do not be conformed any longer to the patterns of this world. Do not be conformed to the animistic worldview that you're in right now, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Uh so it's it's it's a both it's a two steps. One is the counterformation, it's a counter-discipleship in a way, in the worldview that you are entangled in right now, which most people I don't think most Christians understand that, understand how to do that, understand the worldview they're coming from. So they don't really know about how to go about that process. The other part of being transformed in the renewing of your mind, I think a lot of people understand that, right? Uh that's kind of more of our basic understanding of discipleship. But I think that step of the counterformation is something a lot of people overlook. Uh as far as in Kenya and the animistic worldview that you are that's predominant there, what does that process look like for people of that counterformation that that no longer being conformed to the worldview around them? How do you walk people through that?
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:Uh thank you, Luke. And I like so very much the text you've used from Romans chapter number 12. The Eugene uh Protestant translation of the of the rendition of the message translation, he says, do not uh fit in your culture without thinking. Like do not just recklessly fit in that culture without thinking. Meaning uh what we are doing is approach of culture, and it's and uh and uh and we are not cursing and and speaking down on on people's cultures and our cultures, but we want to weigh and put our culture on the plumb line with what the Bible teaches, and to the degree that it matches what is biblical and with the biblical worldview, then that part of the culture can be sustained. But to the degree that the part of the culture is going against uh the scriptures that we counter, you know, and if we counter that from the scriptures, then we are telling, we are teaching and telling the people you don't have to just fit in your culture without thinking, allow a translation into another culture, which is in in this case the kingdom culture, so that the little that is kingdom best in our culture we will carry and we will retain, but uh most of what we should become is the is the is the is the higher sense of life which should be based on a culture that is kingdom driven by kingdom. When I when I teach, I like to use uh uh the idea of elimination by substitution, so that when we are eliminating what we are countering, we don't leave a vacuum of what do we do now? We are we we we used to do this, we no longer do that. What do we do? We we substitute whatever we are eliminating with something that is biblical, with something that is sound, uh, with something that is uh going to establish this person in the kingdom. And then, of course, ultimately we are teaching them to become disciplers themselves, so that what they receive, they can be able to pass on to the next, and therefore to the next generation and to the next generation.
Luke Allen:Yeah, that's just I'm I'm I'm just thinking of that that picture that's in a lot of our training of the the the three trees, which represent different cultures and the different worldviews of those cultures. Uh and for anyone that's listening who hasn't seen the the picture of the three trees, what it looks like is uh three trees, uh the one on the far left is uh very dead and decayed, and the one in the middle is slightly slightly dying, slightly alive, and then the third one is a flourishing, healthy looking tree. And what what what's in this picture is down in the soil of those three trees, down in the at the roots, is uh little bubbles. Some of them say lies, some of them say truth. And you know, the the more dead tree is gonna have more lies in the soil, the more flourishing living tree is gonna have more truth in the soil. So when you go about this process, the the what you're describing, Pastor Desire, is looking at the the soil of the worldview around you, looking at the soil beneath your culture and your society, and asking where are the bubbles? That say lie. And then pulling that one out and replacing it with the truth of God's word. There's other parts in the soil of your society in every society around the world that are true and that are alright, that are good already, and that align with g God's truth in his word. Pretty much all cultures around the world have a little bit of that because we are made in the image of God. So it's that kind of common grace that's true for everyone. But in some societies, there's a lot of lies. And it's that process of taking out the lie and then not just leaving the vacuum but replacing it with the truth of God and his word. And that's that's kind of this process of growing a biblical worldview. You're not just laying truth on top of a bunch of lies and expecting that type of society to work. That's that's that dualistic society, that's a syncretism that's trying to adopt two worldviews at the same time. That doesn't work. You have to actually go dig into the soil and replace these lies with truths one at a time.
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:Whether it's it's a transformation that is actually moving from root to fruit.
Luke Allen:Exactly. Yep. And then yeah, and then yeah, they to continue the analogy, as you replace the the lies with truth, the fruit of the tree is gonna become healthier, stronger, and you're gonna produce more good fruit. Um and that's practically what we've seen around the world as as churches like yours ex you know, start to understand this teaching or this I mean it's it's nothing new, right? It's just the Bible's teaching on how humans are supposed to live, right? So it's not when I say our teaching, it's not our teaching, it's just basic biblical truth, biblical worldview. But as as as as we see churches like yours, which is a great example of this, understand these things and start to really dig into your society and dig into the culture around you and replace those lies with truth, the fruit's amazing. And I just love to hear a little bit more about this one, how how do you practically go about replacing those lies with truth? Like, what do the conversations look like where you sit down with someone who's heavily influenced by animism and then you and then you you speak to them the truth? And then what are the practical effects that you see in someone's life like that? Like, do you have examples of that that you're thinking of right now? And could you share those with us?
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:Yeah, I mean the uh one of the really deep, deep roots in our culture is for example the issue of women and how women are perceived and handled in society. Uh the issue of work and uh how work is perceived many times as a curse, and sometimes we've even had that preached in pulpits. How uh I mean we work hard and we we we eat from the from the sweat of our brow because uh man has sinned and therefore God has cursed man with work, you know. So all of that becomes a very founded lie that changes people's perception on how they respond to work. I mean, they will work because they must have an uh a living, uh, but they wish it was not, there was another way to do it, and so we begin then to show that as a matter of fact, in Christ Jesus, first of all, first of all, God gave man work before sin. So so the the idea of work is not a curse whatsoever, but at the entrance of the curse, we still have the answer to the curse, which is Christ Jesus, and we've said yes to the Lord as New Testament believers now. We have been freed from that curse of that law, that whatever we are doing, whether it is work or whether it is the way we deal with our women, that exchange must be able to happen to understand that we are blessed of the Lord. So when we look at work, it is God's blessing and God's favor and God's graciousness at work in our lives. So you teach them when you show up, one of the tools, and I think I'll get to talk a little bit about that later, work for a living and the rest of the things that we are doing. For example, in work for a living, we are teaching job readiness, and in teaching job readiness, they must know that it is God's grace and mercy and love and kindness that actually brings a job your way, you know. So when we teach them that it's not good for you to sit at home and do nothing, it's a shift of worldview. Because uh, number one, it's very hard to get jobs. Number two, we have been told that there are no jobs around. Uh, number three, even if I got a job, it's a curse. After all, I'm carrying a burden because uh God has released a curse upon us for work, but now we are telling them it's not good for you to sit at home and do nothing because God has created you to be productive and to be to be active and to add value to society. So seeking for a job is a full-time job. And you receive that first of all as your job, so that you go out looking for a job. And if you don't get a job today, you've already done some kind of work in seeking for a job. And then we teach them how, for example, to do interviews and to pass interviews, we teach them professionalism. If you go into if you get the opportunity to get into someone's office and they've given you work, how do you behave in that place so that you add value to that, to that company? Again, a shift of worldview because a lot of our people go into companies to see what they're going to get out of there, you know. But now we are teaching them that you don't go there to just get some. We bless God that you're going to get something out of there, but you're only going to be valuable to the degree that you see yourself as someone that is going in there to add value. A very strong shift of worldview because now, and we are teaching them that that's biblical and that's the will of God and that's the counsel of God on this matter. So now they rejoice in work, they begin to celebrate in work. When they testify that work has come, it's the blessing of the Lord, it's the beauty of the Lord. It's not just about the paycheck and the salary that is going to come at the end of the day. It's God giving me an opportunity to add value to my society, to my community, and be a part of the grand scheme of things, you know. So now that's where church, the Monday church, becomes a very, uh, very powerful tool as well. Uh, understanding the bridge uh between what we would call secular and what we would call uh sacred, so that they understand that your work, church begins on Monday. We tell them that church begins on Monday. Sunday you come to be serviced like the car that goes to the garage and be, you know, receive, be refreshed to be ready to go run yet another week. But the real church action is actually happening Monday through Friday, so that when you go out there in that office, you're not just uh someone on the payroll, you're not just one of the statistics of that company, you are actually an agent of change, and God has trusted you with that. Whether you're a magnic at the garage or you are a teacher at the school or you are a nurse at the hospital downtown, you are going there as a representative of God, and what you do is as valuable ministry as mine is when I'm preaching on Sunday morning. So that's a whole shift of mind, you know, that all of a sudden brings a lot of honor and dignity and grace on the work that they do so that they actually begin to see it as a part of a grand scheme of ministry that God has created for Kingdom Walk to be a blessing to our communities.
Scott Allen:Wow. I really love what you're saying. Yeah, that's a great example. When you talk about work, and I remember when I first met Ina Richards, because she um she's the founder of Work for a Living. And Work for a Living is a wonderful ministry that historically, I mean, Ina was working in South Africa in the townships, and she saw all of these unemployed young men and women. Um, and yet there was these large multinational corporations that were coming into South Africa that needed workers, and and so there was this gap between the these young people that that were um seen as kind of unemployable and these opportunities for work. And so she just said about, hey, let's just change, let's work to make build, you know, bridge that gap, and we'll teach them job skills, how to interview, um, how to show up on time. It was very skills kind of based. But at the time, what she didn't understand was this concept of worldview, that their own concept of work was like you were describing. It was negative, it was seen as something that um, you know, if you're a Christian, it's part of the curse. If you're a non-Christian, it's kind of a necessary evil. And so she, when she encountered Darrow in the DNA's teaching on worldview, she she it was like an aha for her. She said, Oh, we have to change this way of thinking about work. Um, and I love your phrase adding value, um, because that's very, very biblical. It goes all the way back to Genesis chapter one when God put Adam and Eve into the garden, he said, Yes, uh, take dominion, rule over the creation. And it's another way of just saying, take what I have made, this magnificent creation, and you add, now you're you're an image bearer of God. Now it's your turn. You add value to what I've made, make new things that such that when you leave this world, uh you've left it more valuable than when you found it. Now, I think a lot of times in the West, because we've been so discipled in this idea of the importance of work and of adding value, we just assume everyone thinks that way. The answer is no. That's that has come through faithful discipleship in a biblical understanding of what it means to be a human being, what it means to work over many, many generations. It's not natural. I hear you saying in Africa, it's not the way we thought we we think, you know, and in the West, it wasn't the way we thought. It it has to be cultivated. And uh so I I really love that. That's a very biblical understanding of of work and of human dignity and and things like that. Do you see that making a difference? Do you are you are you seeing the fruit of that? Uh do you see the people have that paradigm shift? Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:Scott. We started out very uh slowly and gently, like I said, in 2015, and the first few years were were very tough. We used to teach and would have people stand up in class and say, Leave my culture alone, because they are so one time we had a reverend with a caller in his neck, and we are talking about worldviews, and we are talking about certain things that happen in the culture and uh how they're not biblical. And the reverend stands up in class and says, Leave my culture alone, like he's ready to fight, you know, aggressively fight for for his culture, you know. And so uh, but eventually, I think that we finally began to see fruit because we have amazing uh uh success stories of students we have told and they went and got jobs. Uh, we do business for a living. They started a business in a very, in a very the simplest of ways, you would never even believe it. And two years later, now they're employers because they have people that work for them. They are no longer out looking for jobs, they are the ones that are giving jobs. Uh they've become managers in in companies, uh, they've started nonprofits and things that are a blessing to community. I mean, it's just amazing. It's just amazing. Not so long ago, we gathered we gathered a group of all the alumni of uh people who've been training over the years that want to tell the stories and the impact they've seen, and it was just a mind blow mind-blowing scene.
Scott Allen:That's so and it's just yeah, someone that was all that potential is already there, isn't it? It just had to be unlocked in the mind, yes, and then it could flow, you know, and and what that will mean for for Nairobi and for Kenya, yeah.
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So uh it gives us the sense that uh that uh the template is right and we just need to stay faithful to the cause and keep uh teaching. Uh Darrow has told very strongly that if the church does not disciple the nation, the nation will disciple the church. And our commitment is to keep the discipleship of the nation through our community, one soul at a time, and uh uh trust God for that transformation that will eventually begin to pour out into others. And uh uh from 2016 to now, 2025, probably uh nine years of doing this, we've seen an amazing, incredible uh result. Apart from work for a living, uh, we are doing other things that are so deeply impacting society. For example, uh the curriculum called ICVUNO, uh, that uh we are doing, my wife guiding and teaching preschool teachers, what you call ECD or early childhood development that is a hundred percent uh biblically best is so powerful uh that uh a lot of these children that don't have access to uh uh regular uh government services of that kind. When she teaches these teachers based on a biblical worldview, they begin to go to their communities, they start up crashes, some of them become teachers of some of children in their churches, and you see the impact, the impact of that work. We were not so long ago in uh Darasala Mita Zania, and our friends and partners there, the church we work with, were testifying on how we took this material to them some years ago, and now they've literally become trainers over the city. They've become like master trainers all over the city, churches and crash uh uh developers and people reaching out to early childhood development, are reaching out to them for this material for the impact of society and community, you know. Uh we we've been involved in uh what we are calling discover recovery because we serve in a community around Nairobi that is so so so dangerously uh involved in in drug abuse and alcohol, which is a very strong part of a very strong teaching in work for a living itself. But when somebody's drunk, they can't come and sit in class, they don't even see the reason for class. And so we partnered with somebody else that has put up something that is biblically best for managing uh and dealing with uh releasing freedom and discovering recovery, like the name is for drug abuse and addictions, uh, addictions for uh for sexual issues and addictions for gambling issues. And you know, we work with that team to take them through weeks of uh meetings on a weekly basis, almost like how AA would operate and get them to know that they have a problem and get them to understand that there is a solution to that problem. We get them into biblical worldview to show them that actually Jesus is the answer to that problem. And once they come to a place where we see the release and their eyes are opening up again and they are finding life and freedom, and they are you meet them and say, you know, I've been free some months now, I've been free some weeks now. We now encourage them to join Work for a Living. Because once you are free from the addiction, now we need to find you a job. So they go sit with us through the Work for a Living uh training, and once they are done with that, they may do business for a living on top of that, what we call wired for business, so that eventually, if they're not going to end up employed, at least they can start a small business. And if they are committed to that, because part of what we teach is work ethic and professionalism and commitment to the work, then they're if they get employed, they should be able to thrive and get promoted. If they get to start a business, it may take them some time, but eventually they'll become fruitful. So it becomes a full ecosystem that does not only harvest these souls to bring them to church to become members, but it transforms their lives so powerfully that now they become business owners, now they become amazing, beautiful, quality, employable people, and they are freed from their addictions and uh, you know, the trials and the afflictions of their lives. And at the end of the day, you look at young men and women like that three years later, two years later, and we are so absolutely overjoyed by the incredible transformation, a soul at a time uh that would really manifest the gospel of the kingdom.
Scott Allen:That's so encouraging. How do you feel like the uh other pastors in Nairobi, you know, the the larger church there, the Pentecostal Evangelical, Bible-believing church? Um, how do you feel like they are responding to what you're doing or this message that we're talking about, the gospel of the kingdom? Um, is that uh uh something that you feel like uh more and more people are understanding it's gaining support, or is it still kind of a minority position? What's your view there?
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:I I would say yes, it's still a minority, but the truth is also that it's really catching up on as a wildfire. And I think uh this must be the season where that understanding of biblical worldview and everything we are talking about has become uh very, very uh I mean, it's like the harvest is plentious, but the laborers are few.
Scott Allen:You know, it's like the people are really ready for this, yeah.
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:Okay, they're really, really, yeah. Everywhere I have an opportunity to share this stuff, you'll find they call you again for another session, call you again for another session. And a lot of pastors are beginning to teach this. Uh, yeah, but uh again, uh it trickles it trickles out uh uh at a time, but there's definitely no doubt that this is one of the greatest times, I believe, that Africa is is uh transitioning into a very powerful sense of transformation in communities, in our cities, churches making a difference. And uh, I mean, you find these days, uh, almost everywhere you find a church stable and uh you know taking shape for community, they'll be having a school. Many of them are going to health care, many of them are going into taking care of children and taking care for people with uh the drug issue because it's a real big menace in our community. And so that impact rolling out uh in manifestation of the kingdom and taking dominion in these uh different spheres that surround us is really becoming strong and incredible. So we are so delighted to be a part of this and to serve the Lord at such a time.
Scott Allen:Amen. Amen.
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:Yeah, and of course, to be great partakers of this amazing uh uh ministry. The scripture talks about how he's made us able ministers of the New Testament, and we so deeply delight in the grace made available to be able to make a difference and add our two cents to community transformation in the uh grand scheme of transforming and discipling a nation.
Scott Allen:Wow. Gosh, well, I'm I'm just listening to you. I'm just so encouraged, and I I just want to thank you for your um you know, your faithfulness in in hearing, but then putting hands and feet to it and really, you know, living this out in your ministry as a pastor in your church and then beyond. So I and I just want to challenge all of our listeners to do the same. You know, follow your example, you know, thank you, Scott. Um it it's just it's so helpful to hear examples of people that have put legs, put feet to this and are really walking it out in a way that's really bearing fruit, going after the lies. We talked about the lies about the view of work. We didn't really have a chance to unpack the one that you were mentioning with women. Maybe we can come back and do that. But my question to our listeners, especially pastors, is if you're not in Africa, what what about the lies in your culture that need to be uprooted and truth needs to be planted in place of that lie? What are those and what are you doing to to make a difference there? Luke, as we wrap up, what final questions do you have for for Pastor Desire?
Luke Allen:Yeah, I mean you're talking about other pastors around the world, and um I just I just hear the uh the same situation over and over again as there was that pastor you said, Pastor Desire that stood up in one of your one of your teachings or meetings, leave my culture alone.
Scott Allen:You know, and that's that's that's actually a Western lie, by the way. That's a that that's uh that's this Western lie of um cultural, what do we call it? Relativism relativism. That all cultures are kind of pristine, pure, and good, and the missionaries are really a problem. Anyone that's coming in and trying to change a culture becomes the evil person.
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:Yes.
Scott Allen:Uh that's very much a Western lie that's very deep. The root of that lie is very deep uh in in America, you know, in the United States and in Europe as well.
Luke Allen:Yeah. So but yeah, to that to that lie, I just I just uh I would like to hear how you push back against it, but it's the same, we hear it around the world is leave my culture alone. And uh obviously as a Disciple of Nations Alliance, our entire mission is to not leave cultures alone, is to seek to transform the cultures, to bring in God's truth, goodness, and beauty.
Scott Allen:And it's not to say that there aren't elements in any culture around the world that reflect the truth, the goodness, and the beauty. It's not like cultures have to be completely uprooted, you know, and completely transformed. Uh, you know, we can identify lies, but we can also identify truth in cultures. Yeah, like I think in Africa, I mean, maybe you could speak to this briefly, Pastor uh Desire, truth that exists in um African cultures like you see in Kenya that um you know that are something that Christians need to nurture and encourage. Uh yeah, what would you think?
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:Yeah, I think the I mean there are there, like you said, there are a lot of excess in many cultures. And I think all of this is rooted in the fact of uh self-actualization and self-preservation. And so you see, they come up with with a lot of things to uh to that end for preserve preserving their clan and their dream and their community and their people. I like the way uh Darrow teaches on that, and he calls it the truth in the middle, because the truth in the middle is always going to be biblical, otherwise, that extreme on the left is as dangerous as the extreme on the right. We must find the truth in the middle. And I tell them to the degree that your culture is moving away from the middle, which is biblical truth, then we will not throw away the baby with the bath water. Let's pick out the baby and then throw out the bad water. In this case, the bad water is the dirty water is too much. But once once we take it out, we can preserve the baby. And um, there are amazing things in the African culture, all that notwithstanding. I mean, things like the honor they have for community, you know, uh, the the relationship, the value that is put on relationships, and all of this is biblical, you know. Absolutely.
Scott Allen:If I could just add on to that, you know, I I'm glad you brought that up. That there's something so beautiful about the communities in Africa and the joy, the strength, you know, often strong families, strong communities. I remember uh Dennis Tongoy, you know, uh, when he came to the United States um several years ago, I was hosting him. Dennis is also from Nairobi.
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:And he was broken.
Scott Allen:Yeah, he was brokenhearted. You know, he came to Phoenix, where I'm at right now, Phoenix, Arizona, and he he said, Your culture is so broken. And I said, Tell me more about that. He said, People are so isolated, they're so lonely. They're, you know, and he said, That's a poverty. It's a kind of poverty that is even more severe than the poverty that we wrestle with and struggle with in Africa. I thought it was very profound. But you're right about the beauty of that in the African.
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:Someone someone said you are so poor that all you have is money, you know.
Scott Allen:It's so true. It's so true. Yeah. The deceitfulness of riches is what the Bible you know refers to it as. Exactly. We think, you know, that will satisfy all my needs, and clearly that's not the case. There's there's such an epidemic of loneliness in the West that you do not see as nearly as much, if at all, in places like Africa. So again, we're talking about changing cultures. It doesn't mean everything has to change, it's a matter of identifying those lies. You know, uh, there's cultures around the world, for example, where stealing is is seen as a virtuous thing. Yes. When stealing is seen as a virtuous thing, you're never gonna have any kind of economic development. You're just gonna have ongoing poverty. So it's like, I don't know, you know, do we do we not change that?
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:In the book for Nurturing Nations, he talks about how in ancient Rome uh violence was a virtue and compassion was the vice.
Scott Allen:Exactly, exactly. Yeah, and you see that in movies like uh Mel Gibson's famous movie, you know, the Gladiator. Well, gladiator, I was thinking of that, the yeah, the uh passion of the Christ, you know, where Jesus is being just brutally whipped and the guy is laughing and enjoying it. And I thought, you know, it's it's true. Um there are things that are wicked and evil because of the fallen world. So we're not trying to, we're trying to, um, when we talk about changing culture, we're trying to kind of bring out the beauty and the goodness of you know what God has already planted in that culture. You know, it's it's like tilling a garden. I think it's it's very often pulling out weeds and and nurturing the things that are growing that are good, you know. Um, and not all cultures are going to be alike, and this is part of God's beauty and um the diversity that He loves, you know, the diversity of cultures.
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:I mean, I mean, I like I think it's still Darrow again who talks about the text in the book of Revelation, how the nations will come with their with their crowns, the kings with their crowns, laying them at the master's feet. And what is going to come from Africa is very different from what is going to come from Australia, and very different from what will come from America. Absolutely. There's unique gifts. The kingdoms of this world have now become the kingdoms of our God and of his Christ.
Scott Allen:Amen.
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:Because now, when a nation is truly discipled, that nation can be presented to the king with its glories of uh of whatever life meant to them and whatever is represented, because all of that is not just to the glory of that nation and their people, but to the glory of God.
Scott Allen:Amen. Wow.
Luke Allen:Yeah, you've really explained that a little more. That's so rich, is is what you're explaining right now is the glory of the nations, the the distinctness of the nations, the beauty of the diversity of the nations. Yes. Tell us a little bit more about that. I love that concept.
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:I mean, because you see the the Matthew 28, when he's talking about making disciples of nations, many times we've misinterpreted it to mean making disciples in nations. And uh rather rather yeah, making disciples in because if you're making disciples in nations, then uh the the people reaching out to this the gospel of salvation makes sense if you're making disciples in nations. But when you're making disciples of nations, now we must translate, right? We must take salvation to the next level, which is now kingdom, because the word there is ethnos, meaning basically people groups that that my my uncles, my aunties, the people that speak my language, the people that believe the way that I believe, all that must be transformed, and that nation, that ethnos, changes their culture. Their culture is redeemed and translated to begin to receive the culture of the kingdom. The little bit of the culture of the kingdom that is inculcated in their culture, they will hold on to that. But then ultimately they are changed from the core of that culture, that now you're having a discipled nation. And that nation is the one that is coming and carrying their glories and their honors. You know, when Isaiah said that uh uh in the year that Queen Uzziah died, I think it's Isaiah chapter number six, I saw the Lord and uh the glory of the Lord filled the temple, the train of his rock filled the temple, and he said the the the seraphims were was crying and saying, Holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty. The earth is full of his glory, you know, the fullness of his glory in the earth is not just the the mists across the nations or the gold and diamond in the belly of the earth, but the peoples of the nation. Psalm 24 says, The earth is the Lord and the fullness thereof, and the people that dwell in it. It is God that established it on the seas and put it upon the floods. You see, God is claiming his authentic ownership of the land. In Africa, we have a very serious, vicious fight over land, and you find in every culture there are cousins that are killing one another over a few feet. It's not that it's not that I'm taking your land, but we are just fighting over the boundary, and people die over that. And I think about that in light of Psalm 24, that the Lord actually claims everything. He says the cattle on a thousand heels, and I tell the people, if they the cattle on a thousand heels are his, that means their thousand heels are his as well. It's not on a lease program, you know. So, and if that be true, then the peoples who are the glories of the earth, when we are translating them as nations ethnos to begin to carry the glory of God, the peoples now are carrying the glories of the nations. When they carry their crowns before the Lord in the book of Revelation, they the ones from Botswana are bringing their culture that has been redeemed to the glory of Christ. The ones in South America are carrying their glories of their culture that has been redeemed to the to the glory of God. And then that scripture now makes sense that the kingdoms of this world have now become the kingdoms of our God and of his Christ, because every culture has been submitted to the ultimate culture, which is that of the kingdom.
Scott Allen:You know, I I love the way you're phrasing that the culture has been redeemed. It hasn't been replaced. It hasn't been erased. It's been redeemed. It's been purified. It's been glorified. And that's the and I think it's been tricky for missionaries throughout time. I don't think we've done well at this because we tend to come with our own cultures. And not only do we come with the gospel, but we also come, I think of here, for example, of Native Americans in the United States. We've there's so many sad stories about how missionaries did come, but they brought with them the culture of England or of, you know, kind of the white person. And that had to kind of completely erase the indigenous culture of the Native people. Um it's just it is difficult. Uh, you know, this is not easy. We have to understand that we are all coming from cultures that need to be redeemed.
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:You know, there is no perfect redemption of redemption of uh of particular individual cultures is now giving us the concept of of uh of uh what you'd call uh unity rather than uniformity, so that we all don't have to look the same, we don't have to wear school uniform and all look like the same because we're Christians. God can wear his culture from America to the glory of God, while desire wears his culture from Africa to the glory of God. And and because we are founded in the same root of the foundation of biblical worldview, we are actually united in our diversity, it's the unity, it's the unity in diversity that gives the glory to God rather than that unity and diversity is another deeply biblical idea, deeply biblical, and it's always it goes all the way back to the Godhead Himself.
Scott Allen:Yes, uh unity around God and a diversity of Father, Son, Holy Spirit. It's something that we take for granted. But most worldviews, none, I would say, have that concept like the biblical worldview does. And so it's so powerful, and like you say, it's rightfully carried over into cultures, a unity in that we are all part of God's kingdom under his lordship, but a diversity. He's made us unique, he separated the nations back at the Tower of Babel, um, you know, into languages and people groups and ethnos. And there's a beauty in that diversity that doesn't end, it's not erased in the new heavens and the new earth. Um we will we will retain that. No, oh sorry, sorry, go ahead, Pastor.
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:No, no, no, no. I wanted to add to what Scott is saying, and I was going to say that the understanding of that at the culture level then brings us to a realm where we're innovators at a cultural level rather than imitators.
Scott Allen:Amen. And we all can learn from each other, can't we?
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:Yes, that's true. Absolutely true, absolutely true. I see, I see. Let me let me let me give let me think about uh a situation like worship, for example, where I mean English is amazing, and in Africa we speak some some beautiful, amazing English in many parts of Africa. But but when you begin to sing a worship song and it's in mother tongue, it's in Swahili or it's in some some Luganda language, you you the the way it touches their hearts is so tremendously different. Uh, not that the English song doesn't do it, but there's just there's just something so powerful that all of a sudden breaks their heart and brings out the tears and and and just gets people to their knees because because the glory of God is being spoken and manifested and demonstrated in their mother tongue, which is actually culture, because language is expression of culture. So so so, and I think a redemption of culture, part of the manifestation of a redeemed culture is language. I know you've done uh an amazing work on uh on words, you know, your your most recent book, Score. And I can imagine that concept of words, as we say it in English, when you come to my Swahili, for example, and then begin to have powerful words like redemption expressed in Swahili, powerful words like worship and love and dignity expressed in Swahili, that even though someone speaks English, if you give it to them in their mother tongue, it's so so powerfully rich and original and local, and yet it is expressing the glorious glory of God that is absolutely global, universal, and so divine.
Scott Allen:Amen. That's what missionaries used to understand that um taking these powerful biblical words, they didn't exist in English originally, they they existed in Jewish, in Hebrew, and Greek from God Himself, and then they were translated into languages like English and Swahili and other languages. And that was part of the redemption of that culture, wasn't it? That's the the bringing out and the beauty. And I love what you're talking about with worship because whenever I go to Africa, it's just it touches my heart when uh you hear Africans, the the song, you know, you get a group of Africans and you say, Hey, let's worship. Uh, you don't need uh guitars, you don't need amplification, you don't need fancy like screens with video images. They just start singing in harmony in the most incredible way with the most incredible beauty and power. It's just a glory of Africa. I don't know what else to say. It's something that we don't have, we can't do it. We we feel like you know it's not going to be worship nowadays unless you've got, you know, you've got thousands of dollars of equipment or something like that.
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:But uh I've had Darrow tell a story how he was somewhere in Uganda, I think in northern Uganda, and the worship was going on, and they played the guitars and all the amplified sound and all of that, and it sounded like ambiguous noise, and you know, you want to close your ears. And then out of the blue, the power cut, which is one of those things that we are so used to in Africa. And when power cut, they were all forced to just go down to the bare minimum, which is your hands and your voice. And from that moment, pure worship just began to flow. Because it was like there was no more hindrance, there was no more ambiguity, it was pure, clear, glorious worship right.
Scott Allen:And it's just amazing the way that I don't know, there's something I don't I just find it amazing the way that people can so easily harmonize. And and then, of course, the dancing and the movement and the rhythms, you know, and everyone is, you know, it's all a piece, you know. It's all it's just such a unique and powerful thing. So I I absolutely love that. One of the glories. So one of the glories. I agree. Hey, listen, we could go on and on. You know, it's so fun to talk to you. And I just as I'm talking to you, Pastor Desire, I just I'm so appreciating the depth. You you not only have you understood these things, but you have owned them, clearly. You know, this is now coming out of your heart, and I'm learning from you. I'm like, wow, he's really, really understanding these concepts at a very deep level, and not just understanding, but teaching, discipling, and really being faithful to pass those on again. Thank you for that. Thank you. Thank you, Scott. We do need to we have to listen to I'm always mindful of our our listeners to these podcasts who probably don't want to listen to a seven-hour podcast, and uh even though it would be it would be fun to talk for seven hours. But uh Luke, any final things from you as we wrap up today?
Luke Allen:Yeah, I think just uh before we wrap up, um, Pastor Desire, we do have we do have quite a few listeners in in Kenya. Uh, how can people find you, find your work, find your church? Um, is there any is there websites we can go to or direct people to social media accounts?
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:Yes, uh bacon life church. Uh ww.beaconlifechurch.org is the website.
Scott Allen:Okay, that's beacon beacon life church, yes.
Dr. Dennis Desire Mwesigwa:Yes, yes. But uh on Instagram, baconlife church, on Facebook, Bacon Life Church, on Twitter, Bacon Life Church, on every platform we we maintain that name, Bacon Life Church. Uh, but for those that are local and they're able to reach out, my email would be Bacon Life Church at uh rather, yes, beaconlife church at gmail.org. Or you can use Dennis Desire, Dennis with a double end, denisdesire at yahoo.co.uk. And if you're local and you want to make a phone call, the number would be plus two five uh four seven two five triple five double one seven. And I'll be most delighted to get in touch with you know anyone that we can uh share thoughts and ideas and see how we can uh partner and collaborate and uh continue to push uh this great work of the kingdom.
Luke Allen:Amazing. Yeah, thank you for being so generous with all that. Um yeah, and for anyone listening, yeah, please reach out uh to Pastor Desire. And uh for anyone who's in Africa who's also gone through some of the DNA teaching, sometimes we hear from you guys that you feel a little isolated and you'd like to meet other people who have also gone through this and are thinking the same way as you are and wrestling with these same ideas. Uh, I just encourage you all to find each other, get connected. Here in the DNA office, Sean Carson, uh, his his entire role is around helping you guys get connected. So please reach out if you feel that way. Uh and for any of you guys who would like to learn more about Ina Richards' work uh at Work for a Living, uh, we have included more information about that down in the show notes, as well as our basic training courses here at the Disciple Nations Alliance, including all of the courses on quorumdale.com. That's also linked down in the show notes below. So please uh if you're interested, go ahead and check all that out. And uh yeah, thanks everyone again for listening. We really appreciate all of you guys' time and attention. We hope this episode was as encouraging for you as it was for us. And uh hopefully we'll catch you next week here on Ideas Have Consequences.
