Ideas Have Consequences
Everything that we see around us is the product of ideas, of ideologies, of worldviews. That's where everything starts. Worldviews are not all the same, and the differences matter a lot. How do you judge a tree? By its fruits. How do you judge a worldview? By its physical, tangible, observable fruit. The things it produces. Ideas that are noble and true produce beauty, abundance, and human flourishing. Poisonous ideas produce ugliness. They destroy and dehumanize. It really is that simple. Welcome to Ideas Have Consequences, the podcast of Disciple Nations Alliance, where we prepare followers of Christ to better understand the true ideas that lead to human flourishing while fighting against poisonous ideas that destroy nations. Join us, and prepare your minds for action!
Ideas Have Consequences
The Church is the Chaplain of the Nations: Wokeism, Islam, and the West
Episode Summary:
Freedom, tolerance, and human dignity only exist in Christian nations. In this episode, we dive into Tory (Conservative) Member of Parliament Danny Kruger’s viral speech on England’s Christian foundations, exploring the myth of public neutrality and the consequences of abandoning a moral anchor. From parish life and common law to the sanctity of life and public office, we trace how Christian ideas shaped institutions that protect the weak and restrain the strong—and why leaving that framework vacant invites new “gods” to take their place.
We examine the moral vacuum Kruger identifies: the rise of secular ideologies, the growth of Islam in Britain, and the hybrid “woke” creed mixing pagan revivals, Christian heresies, and modernist power theories. Rather than caricatures, we look at what these forces do to families, schools, and civic trust, and why a politics of grievance cannot sustain a free society. Along the way, we wrestle with difficult issues—late-term abortion, assisted dying, and repentance in public life—while charting a path for Christians to reclaim moral authority in politics and culture.
From Alfred to Wesley to Wilberforce, history shows that revival can transform nations when the Church acts as the nation’s conscience. This conversation invites listeners to take ownership of the ideas, responsibilities, and institutions we inherit—and consider what it will take to restore freedom, truth, and hope for future generations.
Who is Disciple Nations Alliance (DNA)? Since 1997, DNA’s mission has been to equip followers of Jesus around the globe with a biblical worldview, empowering them to build flourishing families, communities, and nations. 👉 https://disciplenations.org/
🎙️Featured Speaker:
Danny Kruger is the Conservative Member of Parliament (MP) for East Wiltshire, having previously served as MP for Devizes (2019–2024). Before entering politics, he focused on community projects, co-founding Only Connect, a prison charity he ran for 10 years and now chairs, and establishing the West London Zone to support at-risk young people. He has also worked in journalism, as chief leader-writer at the Daily Telegraph, and in politics, including as a Government adviser on civil society and Political Secretary at 10 Downing Street. He lives in Wiltshire with his wife Emma and their three children.
📌 Recommended Links
👉 The Speech: https://youtu.be/6JlYf_VGv64?si=-Edwv4aiu7X_B1iC
👉 Book: A Toxic New Religion
👉 Article: England Before and After Wesley
👉 Bible Study: 10 Words to Heal Our Broken World
💻 Follow Us:
📲Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/disciplenations
📸Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/disciplenations
📽️YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/DiscipleNationsAlliance/
📩 Ask us anything: info@disciplenations.org
In the absence of a Christian God, we don't have pluralism and tolerance. Only under the Christian shield is there truly religious freedom and tolerance. So, in a sense, it's the confidence of truth of Christianity that allows there to be that kind of tolerance and all of other religion in the hope and prayer that people will turn to the one true God and the one true religion.
Luke:Hi friends, welcome back to Ideas Have Consequences, the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. As always, we are just so thankful to each and every one of you guys who are tuning in with us today. We're recording this episode on September the 3rd in the year of our Lord 2025. As you guys know, the purpose of this show is to remind Christians that our mission is to spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. However, our mission also involves working to transform our cultures so that they increasingly reflect the truth, the goodness, and the beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected this second part of her mission. And today, many Christians are having little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God. My name is Luke Allen. I'm the producer of this show and uh one of the co-hosts. And today I'm joined by my friend and colleague, John Bodtimore, as well as my dad and our usual host, today co-host, Scott Allen. How are you guys doing today? Good. Good to be here with you.
Scott:Yeah, great.
Luke:Yep, this is great. I'm excited for today's episode. Um, today's episode is going to be sounding a little bit different because this is going to be a reaction episode. Um, it is a reaction to a powerful speech that went viral back in July. It was delivered on July 17th in the House of Commons in the United Kingdom's Parliament. Uh, it was given by Tory MP Danny Kruger, and the speech was titled The Future of the Church of England. If you haven't heard this speech yet, we would highly recommend that you either pause the episode and go listen to it right now, or circle back and listen to it after the episode is done. We've included a link to this speech down in the show notes. Uh but again, in this in this episode, we're going to be breaking down the speech, sharing our reactions, uh, some of the highlights that we had to it, uh, because we believe this message is absolutely central to our mission here at the Disciple Nations Alliance and on this podcast, uh, but also just more broadly to the global church today, especially for the churches in the West. Uh, since this is an audio-only podcast, I just want to lay a quick uh visual for what uh what this speech looked like. This speech was given again by Danny Krueger and was delivered to an almost completely empty parliament chamber. Um as you watch it, uh, at least I couldn't help but see the irony and the symbolism uh in this in this picture uh as a faithful Christian was proclaiming God's heart for the nations to an audience that is largely not listening. As I watched it, I also was just thinking about, and I sure I'm sure you guys were as well, just thinking about the Old Testament prophets who spent so much of their lives pleading with Israel to return to God, and yet they often saw so little fruit in their lifetimes, and yet they remained faithful to their callings, boldly standing for truth in their time and in their place. Kruger's speech, as you'll hear, is unapologetic. It's a bold call for the restoration of Christianity as a moral foundation that is at the heart of British society. Uh, it's a critique of secularism. It warns against the growing influence of both the woke and the Islamic ideologies that are vying for cultural dominance in Europe and beyond. Whether you agree with him or not, his words raise a very important question about the moral direction that the West is heading in. It's a directory that, um, if it doesn't change, uh, looks like we have some very dark days ahead. But hopefully we can change that. That's the mission of this show. In this episode, yeah, again, you'll just go you're gonna hear us, uh John, my dad, and I, break down this speech into its key segments uh and give our ideas have consequences slash DNA-esque uh responses uh and perspectives to the speech that Kruger gives. So again, we hope you enjoy the episode and let's uh let's dive into the speech.
Danny Kruger:It is an honor to stand here in this empty chamber uh to speak about the original purpose of this space, which was a chapel in the Church of England. The old chamber of the House of Commons uh on which this space is is modelled uh after the great fire of 1834 was St. Stephen's Chapel, formerly a royal church, given by the heirs of Henry VIII to Parliament to serve as its debating chamber. And Madam Deputy Speaker, your chair stands on the altar steps, and the table with the dispatch boxes is where the lepton stood. And I mention this because the link between this place and the Church of England isn't merely ceremonial. The prayers we say here at the start of every day aren't just a nod to tradition. Our democracy is founded on Christian faith.
Luke:All right. Just to give us Roland Ed um any responses to this first segment as he kind of lays the lays the premise for the speech.
Scott:I mean, just that last comment that he made there, I thought was very powerful and just direct. Our democracy is founded on the Christian faith. And uh, you know, this is something we talk about at the DNA often that um every nation, every culture is uh essentially is by is by um is going to be founded on some religious belief, some as he's gonna say later, some common creed. There's no escaping it, there's no neutrality. And uh if it's not Christian, it's gonna be Islamic or it's gonna be secular, it's gonna be something. And uh and he's making the bold claim right here that it's founded on England is founded on this nation, he says, is our or our democracy is founded on the Christian faith.
Luke:Yeah.
Scott:John, any any opening thoughts?
John:Amen to that. We know that in our uh our own country's history. Uh also the very gift of the chapel itself to Parliament demonstrates the generosity of the church and that we're supposed to be generous people. And uh again, the fact that it's plays such an important role in the laws of England demonstrate the role and the importance of the role of the church in all of society. So it's a great kickoff.
Luke:Yeah, I agree. Let's keep going.
Danny Kruger:And indeed, this parliament remains the law-giving power of the Church of England. We in this case have the responsibility to approve or disapprove the doctrine and the rules of the church, and that is as it should be, because the Church of England is not some private club, just another eccentric denomination. The church is a chaplain to the nation, and through the parish system in which every square inch of England has its local church and its local priest, we are all members. We all belong, even if you never set foot in your church from one year to the next, even if you don't believe in its teachings, it is your church, and you are its member. And so when I speak of the Church of England today, I am not speaking about the internal politics of the Anglican sect. I speak of the common creed of our country, the official religion of the English and the British nation.
Luke:All right. Even though he is not specifically speaking to the Anglican Church, John, I believe you are an Anglican. Uh, so I thought you could provide some context on what he means by we are all members of the church.
John:Well, the the government and the church of England are one. It's a different constitution than we have in the United States. The the uh to the the Church of England is the chaplain to the nation, as he said, and the government oversees the church and uh approves her her rules and her doctrine, which we could have a long discussion just about that, because um we have a very uh purposeful and excellent system of our own. The main comment I wanted to make though was this chaplain to the nation and every square inch. I thought of Abraham Kuyper, of course, when we heard the every square inch comment, but it is it's it's the it's this it's the spiritual soul of the nation. The chaplain to the nation means the church is the spiritual soul of the nation. That's true in England, and it's true everywhere.
Luke:Yeah, the the church is the conscience of the nation. I think I heard someone say that recently, uh, very similarly. Um yeah, to his point about us all being members of the church, I think just more broadly about the discussion about um that we've been having inside the DNA about uh where is God's kingdom, what is God's kingdom, and just the fact that we all live in God's kingdom, whether you're a Christian or not, you are a member of the you are a uh subject inside of the kingdom. Um and with that uh the king the king has decreed laws and has a uh way in which his subjects should live in the kingdom, and just remembering that um as humans around the world, um, I think is important and as Christians pointing that out to people is um essential, especially in a time when a lot of people like to ignore God and his decrees for us and his way of life. Uh Dad, did you have any response to this segment? Yeah, a couple things.
Scott:I mean, uh John, to your point, I the United States has a separation of church and state in the sense that, you know, we decided that there will be no state-run church or marriage between the state and any particular church denomination that's different here. Um, I'm, you know, a fan of our particular approach. Uh although when I'm listening to him, yeah, a couple of things I thought were really powerful, the same that you mentioned, John, about the idea of uh the church being a chaplain, that kind of role of the chaplain to kind of reflect and to model and to speak the truth of God's word. I mean, that's what I think of what a chaplain does, ministering to people, particularly in their brokenness, by ministering the word of God and modeling it. And I think that's the role of the church in the nation. I think that's well said. And I also liked what he talked about in terms of the parish. You know, the this uh is a model of church. You see the same thing in Catholic churches where they divide a geographic area up into parishes, and there's a parish church. Um, and in England, you're a member of that parish, that geographic uh area that that church has at the you know, with the church at the center, you're a member of that church even if you don't believe. I thought that was quite powerful. And I think there's a lesson for our churches in the United States, and I encourage pastors to think, even if, you know, uh, you know, think this parish model is quite powerful. So I'd like you to think about your community, your neighborhood, even draw literal boundaries around it and say this is my parish, and and my ministry isn't just to the people who come into the building on Sunday, but it's to the people in this geographic location. I think there's something very powerful about that. I need to be a pastor to them as well. So yeah, appreciate that.
Luke:Yeah, great comment. Yeah, that's that's really helpful. I I mean again to the the church is the the uh conscience of the nation. Um just are you being a conscience to your local vicinity, your jurisdiction, your church's jurisdiction, your your parish.
Scott:Exactly. Do you see that as your responsibility? Because when you're in that parish system, there is a sense of this parish is my responsibility if you're a leader of a church. And I want to encourage us to see it in the same way, not just this geographic area around my church, but in some ways the entire nation. Um so this connection between the church and the nation that he's bringing up is very profound. And it's something that again, we as evangelicals, we don't we don't think of typically because we're so focused, and not wrongly, but we're focused on the individual and the individual's relationship to Christ. But but he's gonna talk in a different way, not denying the importance of the individual, but he's gonna talk about the corporate, you know, the parish, the community, the nation. And I think that's something that I can't underscore the importance of enough. We have to start thinking that same way. Go ahead, John.
John:Such a great point that that uh physical unity of being in a parish doesn't necessarily mean there's ideological unity, but at least you are thinking somewhat. Uh you're in a group together and you have some kind of a uh kind of a convening force, even if you don't all think alike or have the same religion. And uh we don't have that that here. Right. The neighborhood the neighborhood pub was also that idea in English history as well.
Scott:Yeah, I mean, you know, whatever the problems are in that parish are your problems. I mean, again, it puts the onus on you to take responsibility and say, you know, I need to be a minister to these people too. So, anyways, yeah, let's keep going, maybe Luke, yeah.
Danny Kruger:And the institution which, older than the monarchy, much older than Parliament, is the institution that made this country. And it's no surprise that both the church and the country itself are in a bad way. Divided internally, confused, badly led. The church is riven by deep disputes over doctrine and governance, and literally leaderless, with even the process of choosing the next Archbishop of Canterbury unclear, confused, and contended. And the country itself reflects this. Unclear in its doctrines and its governance, profoundly precarious, chronically exposed to threats from without and within, at risk economically, culturally, socially, and I would say morally.
Luke:Okay, just a few reflections there on the confusion and the division within the church and then more broadly in the nation. What's I mean, what I guess my question is, what's the connection there between the as he's pointing down the breakdowns in the Church of England and then the confusion and chaos in in the United Kingdom as a as a whole?
John:Yeah, now he's starting to get into the diagnosis and doing it in a very good way. And my thought is that to answer your question, Luke, is um they go hand in hand when when the when the moral leader of the nation, that we've talked about the church being the chaplain to the nation, is in a bad way, so is the nation, so is the country. And when the church is divided, and if sometimes you can be divided and work things out in a very good way, but when it's being divided because of doctrinal problems in the church and all of that, it it does. It spills into the rest of society. And he was very clear. It's it's unclear in doctrines, um, and it has the church's doctrines and and society values and all of that, and all of that spills over into governance, economic risk, cultural risk, social risk, moral risk, and all all of that leads to a divided country and a weakened country. And he's so he's doing a good job in in the diagnosis, in my view.
Luke:Yeah, I I just I just can't help but think about the the historic, even just um way uh towns were structured in English history, where the church was at the center of every single town. Right. And that like it was the heart, it was the the heartbeat of of the town and you know, so on and so forth, of the nation. Um we we like to say as goes the family, so goes the nation. I would say as goes the church, so goes the nation as well. Um Lennox California a couple episodes back, he made the comment to that. Um the the state of the culture is the resume of the church, or the state of the nation is the resume of the church, and I thought that was just super profound. That as we look at uh nations in distress around the world today, which I think we can all agree are in distress, uh, that should be the resume of the church. We should kind of see that in the mirror and look back at ourselves, like where where where did this where did this all start in a way? Is that too harsh? What do you think about it?
Scott:I love that too. I think that if the church truly is to disciple the nation, the report card on how it's doing is the state of the nation, you know, and and we don't think of that way because we think in terms of just such a strict separation between what happens in church and the broader nation or culture, and you even have a lot of evangelicals saying we should have nothing to do, right, with what's going on out there in politics or the broader culture. Um, this is an entirely different and I think much more biblical way of thinking, that we have a role, God-given role, to play in the nation. And uh if you want to see how the church is doing, how you know the health of the church, uh, take a look at the nation, just just as you were saying, John, they're intrinsically tied, and especially in the case of England or the United States as well, because as he said at the very beginning of this segment, he said uh Christianity, the Bible, uh how did he put it? Um uh is the institution that made this country. That's what he said. I just again the clarity and the power of that, this this is what made this country. And again, I it takes him back to earlier things that he was saying about at the at the as Darrow would say, at the heart of every culture or nation, there's a there's a religious belief, a cult. And it's gonna work its way out into the culture, into the nation, and a Christian nation is going to work its way out into that culture, it's gonna shape and form it in a certain way. And um if the church loses its way, as he's suggesting the Church of England has, and it's confused and it's lost its uh belief in kind of the inerrancy of the scripture or the Christian doctrine, that confusion is gonna be reflected in the nation, in the government. And in this case, he's mentioning specific policy on abortion that apparently Parliament just passed um that extended a legalization of abortion up to the moment of birth. And he's gonna talk about euthanasia as well. Yeah, you're getting ahead of us. Let's keep watching the let's keep it.
John:Just if I could just say one other thing on fundamentally, um that God loves the church, and we in the church are to love the nation as well. So we're hurt when the nation's hurt, we're hurt. We're not necessarily to love the ways of the nation. We we don't necessarily love the kinds of things that the nation values, things that the world values, but we love the people of the nation. And so therefore, the church should not should never separate itself away. That report card's really important.
Luke:Yeah.
Danny Kruger:All right, let's keep going. Madam Deputy Speaker, last month, in the space of three days, in one infamous week, this house authorized the killing of unborn children, of nine-month-old babies. And it passed a bill to allow the killing of the elderly and disabled. And I described those laws in these stark terms, not to provoke further controversy, but because those are the facts. We gave our consent to the greatest crime, the killing of the weak, the most offenseless human beings. It was a great sin. And if I standing here and have any panel to repent on behalf of this House, then I hereby repent of what we did. But Madam Deputy Speaker, in the reaction to these votes and all around us, in reaction to the state of the country and the world, something else is happening. There is a great hunger in society for a better way of living. And I want to use this opportunity to explain what that better way is.
Luke:Okay, before we get to the better way, um I just thought his ownership as an MP of Parliament, when he said we pass these laws, um was honest of him. And um just you could truly tell that he was grieved by the evil that um those laws, those laws bring into his country and uh his call to repentance. Um any thoughts from you guys on that segment?
Scott:I think he's when he uses words like sin and he uses words like uh, you know, great evil or whatever, however he's describing in this case abortion up until the point of you know, viability, birth, not viability, you know, nine months, and then of course euthanasia, he describes the victims of these as the weakest and the most vulnerable. He's speaking as a Christian. Again, those are Christian beliefs. Not every religion believes that. Okay, again, we can go back to the ancient Romans, and they certainly didn't think of human beings in those terms. They had no problem uh with abortion, even with infanticide, with euthanasia. They had a very low value on human life, and that's not uncommon in the world today. We think, I think most of us in the West assume that all people have this high value of human life, and uh i that's just wrong. That's the fruit uh of a a nation that's been shaped by Christianity, as he said. So uh I just think that's really powerful for him too. And like you said too, look, I I I'm really touched by the fact that he could have said, Hey, I didn't vote for that, you know, you voted for that, I'm innocent. But he put himself in the body and he said, I'm a part of this body, and in that sense, I am complicit as well, and I need to repent on behalf of the body. And I think there's a place to do that. Obviously, we own the sins that we commit, but again, that's a very that's true, but it's also a very individual way of looking at things. We are also part of groups. And um I I live in the state of Oregon. You know, we have laws that are very similar to what he's describing in this state, and I feel, you know, a sense of complicity in that and a sense of need almost to repent for that because I'm part of this community here. So I think it's it's correct.
John:Yeah, I would just add that he demonstrated a great humility and repentance in understanding that we are created in Christ's image, and he decides when we come and he decides when we go. It's it's not up to ourselves, it's not up to physicians and all to make those determinations, and what a what a humble and deep repentance that that he demonstrates.
Scott:And again, a very Christian idea. That's that's a very uniquely biblical idea. If you're not a Christian nation, you don't have that idea necessarily.
Luke:Right. I mean, yeah, I think that's what makes his speech so powerful is his clarity of his convictions are just unapologetic. Just here's the truth, you know. And he does it in such an eloquent and respectful way as well. It's it's great speech. I wish I could speak like that. It'd be nice if I had an English accent. Everything you say in an English accent sounds more eloquent, right? All right, let's get on to some solutions.
Danny Kruger:And I want to use this opportunity to explain what that better way is and why we here in England have the means to follow it. The Jewish and the Christian God is a god of nations. He's interested in people as individuals, but also as groups, as communities, not only of kinship, though that too, but of common worship with a common God. And this nation, England, from which the United Kingdom grew, uniquely among the nations of the world, was founded, created consciously on the basis of the Bible and the story of the Hebrew people. And in that sense, England is the oldest Christian country and the prototype of nations across the West. The story of England is the story of Christianity operating on a people to make the institutions and the culture that have been uniquely stable, uniquely successful. The Western model was forged and refined in England over a thousand years, from the 9th to the 19th centuries. So, what is that model? It's simply this: that power should arrange itself for the benefit of all the people under it, and specifically for the poorest and weakest, that the law is there to protect the ordinary person against the abuse of power, that every individual has equal dignity and freedom, including crucially the freedom of conscience, of religion and belief, making space for other religions under the Christian shield, a secular space, indeed, itself a Christian concept, meaningful only in a Christian world. These are ideas that only make sense if you accept that we have some intrinsic value, a value that is given to us, not of our own making or invention. And so through all these long years, from the time of Alfred to the time of Victoria, it was assumed that a nation was a community of common worship, and that our community, this country, worshipped the Christian God.
Luke:Okay, I know that was a lot. We covered we covered a lot there, but um two main segments I'm hearing that I'd like to hear you guys respond to. Number one is the the heritage from the the Jewish and Christian heritage that gave birth to England, and then the rich heritage of England. Um what he calls is the the the one of the most, what does he say, the the oldest Christian nation? Um so he unpacked that first, and then he unpacked kind of the purpose of law. Um, John, what what are some of your reflections on this segment?
John:I just thought it was a super powerful uh segment. There's so so much in there. Um first again was him coming back to what he talked about at the beginning, a chaplain for the nations, in a sense that God's over people. Over each of each of us have to turn to the Lord on our own and become believers, but he's over groups of people and kinships. And so he's speaking on behalf of a nation there. And so the entire country is founded on the basis of the Bible and the Hebrew people. Really interesting for him to say the Bible and the and the Hebrew people. So it just it just shows the the 3,000-year history of uh the Judeo-Christian faith all the way through and not separating that out. Really powerful. And to think of England for a thousand years forging and refining this model, and we can think about the Magna Carta and so many other things about the rule of law and the elevation of the individual and all these kinds of things, all starting in England. So, such a such an important um history of England over such a long period of time, and this whole idea that the model is to have a government that works for the people. And clearly, our own constitution derives a lot of its understanding and a lot of its application uh you know from that, specifically for the poorest and the peak and the weakest against the abuse of power. So really wonderful. Um, I mean, the idea that England is the oldest Christian country, I you know I don't I don't know, that's a that's a bold statement, but um it's certainly one of the oldest, and uh it you know it had a had a great run for over a thousand years until the last uh number arguably number of uh maybe a hundred years or even less than that number of decades. So really a powerful section that follows well on the diagnosis part, and he really defined the better way well.
Scott:Yeah, I'd like to just kind of underscore some things that John you just said there. But if way back at the beginning of the segment, we you it we kind of lost it between clips, but he said he's noticing a great hunger for from people in England for what he calls a better way to live. And uh and we've commented that on that quite a bit on the podcast. We've observed the same thing, you know. I think of again, people like Tom Holland or uh Jordan Peterson, you know, you name it. There's a there is this kind of rising hunger uh for something different than this postmodern secular woke um you know worldview that's been dominating Western nations. Um people see that that's taking us into a dead end. Uh literally, it's something that we cannot build a healthy society on. It'll tear us apart. And so he's noticing there is a hunger, and I totally agree with that. There is a moment here. I think it's important to underscore that. Uh just the way that he phrased things here. One is he said, England is the the story of England is the story of Christianity working on a people, on a nation. I just thought that was really powerful. Just the way that he talked about that. It's it's working its influence on a people. And and he underscored again, you know, it's not just individuals. We again, we we think when we think of missions, we always think it's going, we think of the Great Commission, go make disciples of all people, right? Individuals. But it says nations there, and there's a there's a connection that that he's drawing out here that's so important to see. There's a deep connection between the individual, the family, the community, the nation, right? So you you know, we need to get back to that. That's a core message of the DNA, that the mission of the church isn't just saving individual souls, but it's influencing and shaping entire nations. And the the way that he describes that, this working, the story of the Bible working. But you you know, the old, the oldest Christian nation, there is something you're you're right, John. I'm not sure, you know, we have to look at that, but uh, this is a very old nation. And um it's also it's you know, the fact that England was a Christian nation so deeply shaped by the Bible, uh Puritanism, you know, that came across the ocean and shaped our nation. And in that sense, there's a deep connection between the United States and England. So much of who we are comes from England, and in that sense, I think we really need to be concerned. Uh I'm not British, uh, but I need to be concerned about what's happening in England, because uh, in a sense, it's kind of like the fatherland, right? Of what a Christian nation is. If something's breaking down there, likely it's going to be breaking down here as well. So I think there's something to be said for that. And and then yeah, he just said, you know, back to the what is this better story? He talked about the fruit, the unique fruit, and I I just underscored each one of them individually that he mentioned. He he started by talking about power and authority. And uh this is one of the words, the ten words that I focused on in my book. The biblical understanding of power and authority is so unique from any other religious system or belief system. You know, it says that power, in his words, should be should arrange itself for the benefit of the people under it, particularly the poorest and the weakest. I mean, that is absolutely true, and it's absolutely unique and revolutionary. There's no religious belief system that has that idea that power should exist for the peop for the benefit of the people under it, and particularly the weakest. And you see this with Jesus and the way he exercised his power, literally going to the cross and dying, so that, you know, the the the the all-powerful King of kings and Lord of Lords going to the cross and dying so that we could benefit from his death. And uh that's just such true and powerful thing. And then he talked about um the freedom of the individual. That's another fruit of Christianity, um, the freedom of conscience, where you get religious freedom. And he even talked about how that creates a space for people, for religious tolerance and for us to tolerate people of different religious beliefs, again, only in a Christian nation. And I I would argue that any kind of nation that's founded on Islam, if it's founded on secularism, what you're going to see in those religions is an erosion of freedom. Freedom will not be able to sustain itself in those nations. And we're seeing that in the United States, in this kind of secular woke. Worldview, you're seeing a loss of freedom, freedom of speech. We have censorship, you know, you name it. There's this erosion of freedom. So he's absolutely right that that is just a powerful fruit of this belief system. And that is the better way to live, right? Yeah. Yep. All right, let's keep going.
Danny Kruger:Then in the 20th century, another idea arose that it is possible for a country to be neutral about God, that the public space, the public square was empty of any metaphysics, that the route to freedom lay through the desert of materialism, individual reason, no hell below us, above us only sky. And that idea was wrong. And the horrors of the 20th century attest to that, not least in the West, where we escaped totalitarianism, but have suffered our own catastrophes of social breakdown, social injustice, loneliness and emptiness on a chronic scale. And now new threats, ugly and aggressive, are arising. Because we have found that in the absence of the Christian God, we do not have pluralism and tolerance, everyone being nice to each other in a godless world, because all politics is religious. And in abandoning one religion, we simply create a space for others to move into.
Luke:If we abandon one religion, we simply leave a vacuum for another one to take its place.
Scott:Again, that's the inevitability. You're gonna have some religion at the basis of every nation. There is no neutrality, you know.
John:That's what I was gonna say. We all know the saying government should not legislate morality, but the the reality is that that's that's not a true statement. The question is which morality? Exactly which morality. And so his end comment there that the absence of the Christian God, we in the absence of a Christian God, we don't have pluralism and tolerance, which is totally counter to what we talked about, and Scott mentioned just above, where only under the Christian shield is there truly religious freedom and tolerance. So, in a sense, it's the confidence of truth of Christianity that allows there to be that kind of tolerance and all of other religion in the hope and prayer that people will turn to the one true God and the one true religion. And so here first he gave examples about the horrors of the 20th century, World War I, World War II, etc., um, communism, the Cold War, and then he's now he's getting ready to introduce the new threats that we're seeing. So the point of all of this is the types of ills that we see are changing in time. But make no mistake, there's nothing neutral. It's just a different expression of the same kinds of, not the same necessarily the same kinds of problems, but the same same roots, the same roots of evil and the things that break down society, not build it up. Only Christianity can do that.
Scott:Yeah, he um he he he's going to the problem now for modern-day England, and he's basically saying the problem arose right around the time of the Enlightenment, you know, late 1700s, early 1800s, where this new idea came in that we can be essentially an atheist society. He quoted that famous song from um John Lennon, right? Imagine, imagine there's no heaven, there's no hell below us, above us, only sky. Essentially, imagine a world without God is what John Lennon was singing about there. And, you know, he goes on and says, No, it would be a beautiful world and everyone would be nice, and you know, we wouldn't have religious warfare, and and he's correctly saying, no, you know, it wouldn't be this nice pluralistic place. Um, and he's also, you know, this myth, John, as you said so well, this myth of that time period, this enlightenment idea that we can have neutrality. We don't have to have a religious belief system at the center. We can be religiously neutral. You cannot. And the way that I like to describe this most clearly is, you know, from my own experience in public schools for all these years, I was 12 years in public schools, and the the policy, the official policy was this policy. You know, we're going to be secular, we're going to be neutral, we're not going to favor any one religion. But the upshot is that you learn math, science, and every other subject without this, without mention of God, the very God who created these subjects in the first place. And I'm telling you right now, that is not religiously neutral. You end up being indoctrinated in a particular kind of religion, which is either atheism or deism. You know, deism, this idea that if God does exist, he's uninvolved in this world. I mean, that's essentially what you're being catechized with. So it's inescapable you're going to have religion. You know, there is no neutral space, John. This is the myth that he's trying to kind of say, hey, we've tried to live with this for the last 200 years and it's breaking down. You know, there if we if we eliminate Christianity at the center, we're only going to make room for some other religious belief system to come in and take its place in that vacuum. So that's what you said, Luke. Yeah.
Luke:Yep, there's no neutrality. And when you get rid of God, which we tried to do, you lose love, you lose freedom, you lose the author of the one who gave us our human identity, therefore our human rights. Human dignity, you lose justice, you lose purpose.
Scott:Yeah, you lose the biblical understanding of power is meant to serve those, you know, under authority, and power just becomes a way of wielding power for the benefit of that person who has it, you know. You lose grace. You know, there is no such thing as grace, mercy, forgiveness in an atheistic society. Those concepts have no they have no basis. Yeah.
Luke:And if yeah. It's quite the search.
Scott:Well, it's been, you know, as we've talked about numerous times, I mean, it's been just essentially redefined, separate from God. And now what people mean by the word justice, quote unquote, is some kind of perfect, you know, utopian equality, you know, which you'll never achieve. There'll never be that, except by force of guns or whatever it is, you know.
John:But uh And it's measure and it's measured at group levels, not at individual levels, and just you know, true justice has to be measured at an individual level.
Luke:So all right, let's keep going.
Danny Kruger:And there are two religions moving into the space that Christianity uh has been ejected from. One is Islam. And in a debate yesterday, I said how much I find myself in agreement uh on moral and social matters with Muslim colleagues here in Parliament. Uh, but as I've been saying, this is a Christian country, if it is a country at all. And I and I cannot be indifferent about the extent of the growth of Islam uh here in recent decades. But it's the other religion that worries me even more, and this other religion is a hybrid of old and new ideas, and it doesn't have a proper name, and I don't think woke does justice uh to its seriousness. It is a combination of ancient paganism and Christian heresies and the cult of modernism, all mashed up into a deeply mistaken, deeply dangerous ideology of power.
Luke:Before we dive more into that, I just think that is um an interesting reflection on in this vacuum that we've created by trying to eliminate God. We have these two new ideologies on the rise. And I just there's two of them, but but the I just think we talk about ideas have consequences all the time here on the show, and I think we should do a better job of giving evil ideas ugly names. And just throwing the title woke on an ideology that's as evil as it is, it just bothers me. It sounds too benign, it sounds too fluffy. Like I wish we could come up with a better title for that, because it's evil, and woke just sounds so fluffy to me. But anyway, what do you think?
Scott:He would agree with you, Luke. Yeah, that's why he's uncomfortable with that word woke. But he's describing it, he's describing this dominant belief that's at least dominant amongst our elites and in our universities and our institutions, yeah.
John:That's right, and he's um he's gonna spend a lot more time on this hybrid mash mission mash of all of these things than he did on Islam because uh it it tries to hide itself in things um so rather than rather than being something like like Islam. So yeah. Yeah. The vacuum the you know, he talked about Christianity being pushed out. I mean, I I think again, uh that's an indictment of the church that also that that the vacuum is created by the church um not being the light that it should be to society.
Luke:So yeah, not only have it pushed been pushed out, but we've also kind of stepped out simultaneously. Um I mean any thoughts about I mean in in the UK right now. Um, Dad, what was that stat on the amount of Muslims moving into the UK? Was a few years ago the number one baby name in the UK was Muhammad baby born in in England is Mohammed.
John:It has been for a couple years, I think.
Scott:Yeah, so that's been the case for quite a while. So you have two things happening in regards to Islam and England. You have uh native-born English people not having children largely, it's almost flat, you know, the birth rate. And you have m Muslim immigrants from North Africa, Pakistan, and other places having lots of children. And that doesn't take the the amount of time that that takes to change a society isn't as long as you think. I just saw a stat this week where I think forty percent of all um students in elementary schools in England are now Muslim. Forty percent.
Luke:Was that in England or in Austria?
Scott:That was on Austria, correct. That was in Austria. In England it was less, it may have been uh 30 percent, something like that, but still uh that a large percent. Now he was very gentle on Islam here, um, you know, said that we largely share similar moral values. But I would argue that, you know, you are not gonna have you're you're not gonna have freedom in an Islamic society, at least kind of freedom as we understand it in Western the Western world. You you won't. Um you're also not going to have you're not gonna have religious liberty and in in freedom in that sense. And you're not going to have um uh tolerance, you know. Again, for religious liberty, those ideas aren't going to exist in a strictly Islamic nation. They just there's no basis for it in the worship of that God. Uh he was much stronger on the you know, the uh, as we would call it, cultural Marxist worldview, the the woke worldview. He he was very strong on that. He said, this will destroy us, and for that reason, it must be destroyed, quote unquote. That was his word, it must be destroyed. And I couldn't agree more. I mean, if you look at the toxic nature of this ideology, it just destroys any kind of social cohesion, any kind of harmony. You know, you're always looking at people in terms of you've victimized me, or you are the, you know, you are the uh oppressor. It it just tears people apart. And so I agree with them, it has to be destroyed. It has to be destroyed in England and the United States as well. All right, two more segments.
John:Uh just real quick, one other quick comment on that. The fact that these two things are coming at the same time in the vacuum is no uh no coincidence. It it takes this kind it takes this kind of uh mishmash of ideas and mistakes and false ideologies and all this stuff that this postmodern um thing that he called paganism, heresies, and modernism all together that that doesn't stand on its two feet, and the fact that it doesn't means that things like Islam can grow pretty much unabated. And even the ability to counter and criticize and critique Islam in the West today is is on the rise because of that view.
Scott:Yeah, let me let me let me make it more even more explicit, John, because you're saying something really powerful and true here. You're saying that one enables the other. You know, they're both going together in a tandem kind of a way, and that's not by accident. So the woke worldview enables Islam in this way. It divides the world. It's all about power. That's all that it sees, and power in its worldview is entirely negative. It's meant only for one purpose, and that's to oppress people for your benefit. You know, it's a very unbiblical way of understanding power. I mean, it's true in a fallen world, right? It's it's it has that much going forward. It's looking at how power is exercised by fallen, sinful man. That's true. Um so it divides the world into oppressors and oppressed, and in this worldview, Islam would be an oppressed group. And so it's deserving of special favors. And that's exactly what you see happening in England, right? You can come, doors wide open, uh, you won't be arrested. You know, we hear about the rape gangs and things like that. Uh, you know, we largely won't come after you with the law. Um, you'll be on the receiving end of a lot of our social welfare. Um you so you're right, John. I just think it's important to kind of underscore the linkage that you're you're drawing out here between those two. Because we're seeing the same thing in the United States.
Luke:Yeah.
Scott:All right, yeah, two more segments.
Luke:Let's wrap this up.
Danny Kruger:All mashed up into a deeply mistaken, deeply dangerous ideology of power, hostile to the essential objects of our affections and our loyalties, which are families, communities, and nations. Uh, and explicitly, most passionately, it is hostile to Christianity as the wellspring of the West. Uh and this religion, unlike Islam, must simply be destroyed, at least as a public doctrine. Uh, it must be banished from public life, from schools and universities, from businesses and public services. It needs to be sent back to the fringes of eccentricity, like the modern druids who invest uh Stonehenge in my constituency, uh, with a theology that is mad but harmless uh because its followers are so few and no one's saying it's taken.
Scott:I just have to comment again. He's he's giving, I think, Islam a little bit of a a pass here. You know, he's saying one is uniquely, you know, hate hateful towards Christianity, you know, the woke one. But, you know, it there's an irony here because right now we're looking at a time when Islam is in countries like Nigeria, you know, the the the massive persecution to the point of death, you know, of Christians. So I would say they're both equally hateful towards Christianity and if you know, deadly towards them, maybe Islam's even more deadly.
John:So yeah, more. I think I think the statistics in the last couple years there there were more uh uh Christians killed in Nigeria than in the rest of the world combined. Yeah.
Scott:So just uh And again, there's a lot of Muslims who are nominal, wonderful people, but the religion itself, there's a deep hatred of Christianity that goes all the way back to its founder. So again, I I just want to uh it slightly disagree with him, even though I can't underscore how dangerous the woke worldview is. Um you know, he's kind of saying one is more dangerous than another. I'm like, well. So, anyways, don't mean to be too picky.
Luke:Uh yeah, back to his comment of destroying so-called wokeism. Um, strong words as Christians, uh, how do we s respond to those type that type of uh vocabulary?
Scott:Yeah, he's he's arguing for a strong Christianity here that isn't just this kind of weak wristdown, you know, we just have to tolerate these things even though they destroy people. And I think there's a place for that because uh these ideas, you know, as John Stone Street always says, you know, ideas have consequences and false ideas have victims. These ideas have a lot of victims, and we cannot, as Christians, ignore those victims and just sit back aloof and say it doesn't matter to me, you know. Um, you know, we this again, it reminds me of, you know, often we think about Nazi Germany and the rise of r of of Hitler and the victims of that ideology being the Jews. You can't just sit back and go, it, you know, it's not affecting me. Uh, you have to destroy, I mean, is the right word, I think, those ideologies because they're so deadly. Um, and so I I I think there's a place for what he's saying here. I know it goes cuts against the grain, but I think it's important.
John:Yeah, it's not a it's not a time for appeasement when there are times for appeasement, but uh generally when you have appeasement v that's going against a group that is very strong in its convictions and everything, it doesn't take anywhere close to a majority of the other group to take control of things. And so it's time for the truth and and the love and the power of Christianity. It's it's a it's a confident power, it's a confident and um uh loving solution. So we shouldn't be shy that we have to realize that it's important to take back this ground.
Scott:And you know, you're right, John, when you say when I use the word destroy, I have to be careful and I have to explain that. I'm not talking about going out and pounding these people into the ground, right? Our enemy is not flesh and blood, our enemy is, you know, uh principalities and powers in the heavenly places, ultimately Satan. So we destroy it by by, you know, I wrote a book for this very reason to say these ideas are deadly, these ideas are dangerous. Reason with me, see it. You know, we can't just be um we we can't dabble in it, and we have to call it out clearly and decisively. That's what I mean by destroy. You have to kind of go after it in the in the um realm of ideas and reason, not armed, you know, weapons and things like that. And you have to show that Christianity is better, you know, it it's a better set of ideas, it leads to better outcomes for people and for communities. So again, that you have to be strategic, you have to be intentional, uh, you know, you have to work to bring that idea ideology down.
John:And he said that. He said the focus was at least to destroy it as a public doctrine, as something that is respected, it's out out of schools, out of universities, etc. Yeah, and push it, push it back to the ash heaps of history like the uh the druids. It's so unpopular like the druids. Right.
Scott:They're still around, but they're so they're so nominal and minimal that uh nobody takes them seriously, right?
John:Yeah, Stone Stonehenge is in his area, so he uh he compared it to the druids and Stonehenge.
Luke:Yeah, yeah, back to that idea of destroy. I think I mean it's a strong word. It it it it you know it carries the the tone of violence, um, which is not what we're called to. But I I I think we just need to call sin, right? Like uh I was reading up on a a debate between two Christian speakers today uh on the topic of sexuality, uh biblical sexuality, and one guy was for the the very clear biblical understanding of biblical sexuality, and the other guy was very fuzzy on it, um, and clearly has been uh influenced a lot by this ideology we're talking about right now, this woke ideology. And yet it's not a debate, at least inside the church, where it should be one of those, oh, you know, let's agree to disagree, you do you, kind of things, which a lot of people will sweep that one under the rug, has like, oh, it's just a it's just an agree to disagree, let's still be friends kind of thing. Like, yes, let's still be friends, but there's not a there's not a neutral ground in this argument here around human sexuality, like it's evil uh to disobey God's commands on human sexuality. It leads to destruction of humans and um our bodies physically and uh it's sin. So we just need to be very, you know, have the courage of our convictions to say those kind of things today, and that's kind of what I mean by or what he means by destroy is and I think I think he's just taking ideas seriously, and he's saying these ideas are deadly.
Scott:You know, we saw in the 20th century communism was deadly. You know, this new kind of Marxism is equally deadly, it's gonna be destroying our nation. And we don't just sit back aloof and just go, oh, it doesn't matter. No, that's not what it means to be a Christian. We have to take that on and seek to bring it down, you know, for the good of people in the nation. That's I think our calling, yeah.
Luke:All right. Let's uh let's finish up the speech here about um just over a minute to go.
Danny Kruger:Now, we can no longer pretend, as they did in the 20th century, that we can be neutral or indifferent about God, that the public square is a godless desert. The fact is that the strong gods are back, uh, and we have to choose which God to worship. And I suggest we worship the God who came in the weakest form, Jesus Christ. This God is a jealous God. Uh, it's him or nothing. And we have to own our Christian story or we have to repudiate it. And not to own it is to repudiate it. And to repudiate Christianity is not only to sever ourselves from our past, but it is to cut off the source of all the things that we value now and that we need in the future: freedom, tolerance, individual dignity, and human rights. Without the Christian God in whose teaching these things have their source, these are our inventions, mere non-existent aspirations. To worship human rights is to worship fairies. But if we own our story, remember the real sources of our civilization, we can have these things and make them real, real freedom and tolerance and dignity, a culture of love, and crucially a culture of humanity, because we are in the age of the machine, uh, and a great choice confronts us, whether to make machines an image of fallen man bent on exploitation and domination, with mankind in its sights, or to make them what they properly are, the servants of mankind, able to help us make a better world. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, to conclude. Uh, a wind is blowing, a storm is coming, and when it hits, we are going to learn if our house is built on rock or on sand. But we have been here before. The reformers of the 11th and the 16th centuries, the Puritans in the 17th century, the evangelicals in the 19th century all brought this country back from the edge, from idolatry or error or just plain indifference, and from all the social and political crises that indifference to Christianity brought about. And they each, in their generation, restored this country to itself. And a new restoration is needed now. Revival of the faith, a recovery of Christian politics, a refounding of this nation on the teachings that Alfred made, the basis of the common law of England all those centuries ago. This is a mission for the church under its next leader, whoever that is. This is a mission for this place, this old chapel, which became the wellspring of Western democracy and for us, its members. And it's a mission for our whole country, the route to a prosperous modernity, founded on respect for human dignity, responsibility for the created world and the worship of God. Woo.
Luke:Amen. What a stand in ovation if I was there. Amen. Amen. So good.
Scott:Final thoughts? Well, again, there was a lot in that segment. Um I thought uh if I'm trying to remember, I think I jotted this down. We have to own this. I I love that. You have to own this. There was this personal thing. Like you the you the you cannot be indifferent. You you need to make a choice, you know, and you need to choose this. You need to choose God, you need to choose the truth, you need to own that, and you need to live that out. Um, you know, to be indifferent is to make a choice. I just thought it was, you know, we're we're at a crossroads. You talked about the strong gods, you know, we're in the age of the strong gods, and we're kind of past this idea, this kind of mythology of of neutrality. And now, you know, there's just the strong gods. There's the true God, uh, Jesus, uh, there's the God of Islam, there's the there's the the pagan god of wokeness. Um, you're going to have to make a choice. Um, and he's just making such a strong appeal to to choose the right God, because it's only on the basis of that choice that you're going to have anything like a s a sane civil society that that you know upholds freedom, justice, and human dignity.
Luke:Yeah, I totally agree with that. The the I think that's just a good application for this speech is do you own this? Do you believe that these things are true and that they create um the most free and flourishing societies for us to live in? Create lives that are actually built upon the rock that will weather the storms of life. Um, or are you indifferent? Um, and to not own it is to be indifferent. I thought that was such a powerful line.
Scott:To not own it, yeah, is to be indifferent, and that's not an option.
John:Not to own it is to repudiate it, as he said. Oh, that's what he said. Yeah, even better. Yeah. What I thought was beautiful was uh no, it's a bit it's a bit of a gospel message at the end. The strong gods are back, but it's the weak God, the weak God, weak in quotes, who came as a lamb, who died for our sins, whose ways, whose ways are above our ways, whose love is before our love, whose teaches us how to be good and right to one another, and how to live in freedom and how to live with virtue. So the strong gods are not killed by war. I'm not saying anything about war there, but the but the the real point of this is to return to Jesus, return to his love, return to the message of the gospel and truth, and it results in flourishing in all of society. It results in in individual salvation and it returns into societal flourishing and good health. So it was a great, great ending in that way.
Scott:You know, he mentioned a storm is coming, and I I thought, you know, then he goes on and he kind of uh talks about Jesus' parable, a Sermon on the Mount, the end of the Sermon on the Mount. It's going to the storm is going to show um on what foundation your nation is built. Is it built on something solid or is it built on sand and it's going to collapse? I think all of that is true. It's very apropos. I I think the storm is here. I I think it's uh we're in the midst of it, we're in this time of testing. I do really like the way that he ended, though. He ended on a note of hope in that England had had been in these times of crisis before, where the church was in disarray and it had lost its way, it had lost its faith. Uh, there's a reading that we promote heavily in the DNA called England before and after Wesley. And it's a great reminder of just how lost and broken England was before the great um, you know, the great evangelist John Wesley came, and of course Wilberforce in his wake, and the huge revival that uh came out of that, England re-founded itself on the Bible, re-established itself as a Christian nation, and um all the good fruit that came from that. And uh, but I liked what he said too, because I think a lot of times Christians, when we talk about the need of the moment, they'll say, we need a revival. And he said, Yes, we need a revival, but he didn't end there. Again, it's not just a revival of individuals coming to faith. That's gotta start there. But he says we need that needs to lead to a revival in politics. He went on and talked about how it's gotta have social repercussions, you know, uh cultural repercussions. It's gotta work its way out. But just the reminder that, you know, that this is we've been here before, and I think that's even true of our own country. I think we've faced crises before. It's a hopeful thing to remember that God has saw us through, and it there's hope. It's not lost. I think a lot of Christians feel very hopeless right now, like we've never faced challenges this great before. I don't think that's true. But we have to come back to God, and there has to be a revival, and it does have to kind of start in the church. So uh that's the stakes of the time that we live in.
Luke:So yeah, I thought that was such a hopeful ending to uh a call to history. And yeah, like you were saying, Dad, a lot of people right now are like, oh, it's the worst it's ever been. We're toast this time.
Scott:Yep, it's never gonna recover, right?
Luke:No, I mean there there's been, I would say, worst moments in history, probably. I I actually say that with confidence. There has been worse moments in history. Um, and yet what what he did is he pointed to the uh the unity of Christians across time. I love that how he he went back and he pointed to the Puritans and then to the, you know, and all up to today with the evangelical hung true to the Bible and stayed true, exactly.
Scott:Yeah, yeah.
Luke:And that just to me gives a really it's a it's a cool sense of Christian unity across both time and uh hopefully today as well, is um as we look back in history, we have unity with those guys, same mission, same purpose. And then today, the global body of believers, the the capital C church around the world, there should be a unity and mission that we have here. Yes, um and I I really hope we can have that unity and mission because it's it's uh i i uh we we have so many disagreements inside the church, but our main mission is true across every church, and we can have unity uh through that, and that that can have a huge impact on the nations we live in if we if we have that that um that common uh face towards the world, I guess.
John:That's right. That's right. So we we have we have a great hope, and that's that was a great message at the end to demonstrate that. And we have a great God who's who's who's will do that if we are faithful and re and we repent of where we are and and follow him. That's a really that's really great. Really a great message.
Scott:I mean to me, I I don't think when I was so struck when I first heard that, Luke, because I I don't think I've ever heard anyone express as clearly as he did kind of this understanding of Christianity uh and its role in discipling nations and shaping strong nations. I mean, that's something that we exist to remind the church of, but his articulation of that was just so powerful. I was so grateful for that. And uh so I'm glad we could we could just take some time today and just talk about it and appreciate him for what he did.
John:But thank you. I agree. That was great.
Luke:Yeah, and again, if you haven't listened to the speech yet, make sure to go and take ten minutes out of your day to go give it a listen. We've linked it in the description. You can also find it on YouTube. Again, the title of the speech is right in front of me, The Future of the Church of England by Danny Kruger. Well, with that, guys, I think that's uh a wrap on today's episode. Really enjoyed that. I thought, uh yeah, again, that that speech when I first listened to it, it was powerful. It was moving and uh very, very encouraging and um clear. So uh I'm glad we took some time to unpack that here on the podcast. Uh, for all of you guys listening, if you'd like to learn more about any of the resources that we mentioned today, a few books that we mentioned today, including England Before and After Wesley, A Toxic New Religion by Scott Allen and Daryl Miller, Ten Words to Heal Our Broken World by Scott Allen, um, as well as the speech, again, all of those are linked down in the show notes, um, as well as more information about the Disciple Nations Alliance and this show. So I hope you take a little bit of time to peruse those. And as always, just thanks again for your time for all of you guys who are still listening to this show. We really appreciate you guys and hope you'll be able to join us again next week here on Ideas Not Consequences.
