Ideas Have Consequences
Everything that we see around us is the product of ideas, of ideologies, of worldviews. That's where everything starts. Worldviews are not all the same, and the differences matter a lot. How do you judge a tree? By its fruits. How do you judge a worldview? By its physical, tangible, observable fruit. The things it produces. Ideas that are noble and true produce beauty, abundance, and human flourishing. Poisonous ideas produce ugliness. They destroy and dehumanize. It really is that simple. Welcome to Ideas Have Consequences, the podcast of Disciple Nations Alliance, where we prepare followers of Christ to better understand the true ideas that lead to human flourishing while fighting against poisonous ideas that destroy nations. Join us, and prepare your minds for action!
Ideas Have Consequences
CNN Thinks Christians Are Trying to Take Over the Nation: A Response | Lennox Kalifungwa
Episode Summary:
What does it take to build distinctly Christian institutions in today's ominous cultural climate? This week, we’re joined by our friend Lennox Kalifungwa—a rising podcaster, writer, and cultural commentator whose journey has taken him from Zambia to Moscow, Idaho. Lennox shares lessons from a recent appearance on a hostile CNN segment, responds to Dr. Larry Arnn’s claim that Jesus’ words, “My kingdom is not of this world,” should be taken literally, and offers strategies for navigating cultural conversations in a polarized world.
Together, we explore why truth and love must go hand-in-hand, how Christians can engage faithfully with secular society, and why religious liberty and freedom of conscience are uniquely rooted in a Christian worldview. This episode offers practical wisdom for believers seeking to make a lasting impact in their communities while standing firm in the authority of Christ over all of life.
Who is Disciple Nations Alliance (DNA)? Since 1997, DNA’s mission has been to equip followers of Jesus around the globe with a biblical worldview, empowering them to build flourishing families, communities, and nations. 👉 https://disciplenations.org/
🎙️Featured Speaker:
Lennox Kalifungwa is a cultural strategist, communicator, and creative innovator committed to cultivating free and flourishing societies in every sphere. Through his writing and public speaking, he calls audiences to think deeply and build wisely, with particular emphasis on education, politics, media, business, economics, aesthetics, art, culture, and the shaping of thriving civilizations.
He is the podcast host of Kings & Statesmen and Of Flames & Crowns.
His work has been featured in Forbes, American Thinker, Republic Sentinel, The Classical Difference, and EU Today.
He is passionate about developing and shaping institutional environments that cultivate truth, beauty, freedom, and human flourishing.
📌 Recommended Links
👉 Substack: State of Mind by Lennox Kalifungwa | Substack
👉 Recommended Episode: Is Illiteracy the Devil's Greatest Weapon? | Scott Allen | Of Flames and Crowns Ep. 07
👉 CNN Interview: He thinks America should adopt a Christian theocracy. And he's finding a new audience under Trump
👉 Book: 10 Words to Heal Our Broken World
👉 Bible Study: 10 Words to Heal Our Broken World
💻 Follow Us:
📲Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/disciplenations
📸Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/disciplenations
📽️YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/DiscipleNationsAlliance/
The State of the Culture, that the state of the culture is the resume of the church. There's a big difference between Jesus saying my kingdom is not of this world and him saying my kingdom is not in this world, being the kind of people that are a physical antithesis to the lies. In a world of lies, you want to tell the truth. In a world of escapism, fatalism and despondency, you want to be the kind of person that lives with a sense of hope and joy.
Luke Allen:Hi friends, welcome back to. Ideas have Consequences. The podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. My name is Luke Allen, I'm the producer of the show and I am joined by our host and my dad, Scott Allen. Hey Dad, how are you doing today?
Scott Allen:Hey, Luke Doing great.
Luke Allen:Yeah, this is great. I'm excited for today's interview. We have a good friend coming on the show for his third time now, but before we introduce him, I just want to introduce this show third time now. But before we introduce him, I just want to introduce this show. As you guys know, the mission of this show is to examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world to all the nations, but it is also to be the hands and feet of God to transform the nations to increasingly reflect God's truth, goodness and beauty. Tragically, the church has largely neglected the second part of her mission and today most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple our nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God and the kingdom of God. I may add, today's discussion was a lot of fun, just as far as highlights go. Dad, we talked with Lennox Califungo.
Luke Allen:I guess we can just share who our guest is today, good friend of ours, joining us from over in Moscow, idaho. Formerly from Zambia, I believe, born and raised. No, he might have been born in South Africa, but he's from.
Luke Allen:Southern Africa until quite recently. Now he's over here in the US Today. We talked with him about a variety of issues, one of which was a recent CNN interview that he got to be a part of him, doug Wilson and then some other people from his church an interview that went viral, so we wanted to talk to him about that, get his reactions to that. We also hit on a lot of other things. Dan, just coming away from this discussion, just if you could give people a little idea of what to expect in today's episode.
Luke Allen:What were some of your highlights?
Scott Allen:You know, I thought for me it was just a great opportunity. You know, the ministry up in Moscow, idaho, with Doug Wilson, the College of New St Andrews and the other aspects of that ministry have generated a lot of attention both in evangelical circles but also in the popular press, as indicated by that CNN interview. That was really our kind of jump-off point into the conversation and so it's a ministry that generates a lot of concern. It's kind of a lightning rod and so it gave us—I thought today was great because Lennox is a friend, we knew him before he was working up there in Moscow. So it gave us a chance to kind of push in and ask some questions about what's really going on. What is their approach to reaching out in a city like Moscow and beyond into the nation? What about the kind of stereotypes that some evangelicals have of the work that are negative or critical? So I thought that was really great, great opportunity to just ask some questions and try to understand a little bit more of what's happening there.
Luke Allen:Yeah, absolutely A lot of people have kind of preconceived notions about what's going on up there in North Idaho, including CNN.
Lennox Kalifungwa:And.
Luke Allen:I think it's best, whenever you have thoughts like that about someone or a group, is just go talk to them.
Scott Allen:So, yeah, we just invite you to listen to Lennox today and, yeah, think carefully about what he's saying. Do you agree or do you disagree? We'll let you decide that.
Luke Allen:So yeah, so without further ado, dad, why don't you go ahead and introduce our guest today?
Scott Allen:introduce our guest today, Lennox. It's great to have you. We're here today with Lennox Kalafungwa, who's been on our podcast twice at least maybe more than that, so it's great to have you back, Lennox.
Lennox Kalifungwa:It's so good to be back. You're some of my favorite people to converse with, and it's been just incredible to have experienced this beautiful friendship that we've built up over the last couple of years, and it's just been so rich. So, thank you. This is such an honor for me.
Scott Allen:Well, those are very kind words. We completely concur on our side, lennox. So for those of you who are new to the podcast haven't been introduced to Lennox, let me just give a brief introduction. Lennox, you can fill in as well anything that you'd like to say. Lennox is a native of Zambia. He is a Christian thinker, public speaker, writer and a journalist who seeks to apply biblical theology to the whole of life. His work has appeared in Forbes Republic Sentinel, the American Thinker and other publications. We're also privileged to consider Lennox a close friend and associate of the Disciples Nations Alliance, mostly from his time in Africa, although today Lennox and his family and is it two children, lennox Three.
Scott Allen:Two young children, three children, yeah, sorry about that. Three young children live in Moscow, idaho, which is a long ways away from Zambia, and Lennox is currently associated with New St Andrews College and the various ministries of Doug Wilson. Luke and I had a really just great privilege of being up there earlier this year, having a chance to visit with Lennox. Be on the podcast there. What's the name of your podcast? Again, lennox? I should know that off the top of my head.
Lennox Kalifungwa:That's fine, it's called Flames and Crowns.
Scott Allen:Flames and Crowns. Yeah, so it was just such an honor to be up there with you, lennox. Lennox, tell us you know again, remind me, I guess, what is your? Do you have an official title or what's your official capacity there?
Lennox Kalifungwa:Sure, yeah, in many ways I like to think of myself as New St Andrews College's mascot, so I just kind of need to get the full outfit for it now. But my official title is Digital Engagement Officer, which is really a focus on communications. So I write for the college. I create content for the college communications. So I write for the college. I create content for the college, essentially just trying to amplify its image and its voice in the broader culture and specifically amplifying its voice in present cultural conversations that are happening as well, and that's what prompted the start of the podcast. In fact, there's a second podcast that I've got as well, called Kings and Statesmen, which focuses on politics very specifically. So I certainly have my hands full trying to do all those things.
Scott Allen:No kidding, wow. Well, yeah, we wanted to have you on today just to pick up on that very theme there that you're mentioning in terms of your role, and I do want to encourage our listeners. If you're not familiar with the College of New St Andrews, I really want you to check that out. Especially if you have high school-aged children and you're starting to think about college, this is really one that you do need to take into consideration. They're doing just really great work up there.
Scott Allen:What I appreciate so much about New St Andrews is how distinctively and deliberately they're building their curriculum around a biblical worldview. A lot of Christian universities talk about that, but very often it's quite syncretized. When you get into the curriculum, you see how syncretized it is with, you know, dominant cultural assumptions, especially woke ones, and things like that. But boy, new St Andrews, you could not charge them with that at all. They're really rooted in the scriptures and it's an excellence, a spirit of excellence, up there too.
Scott Allen:So, anyways, yeah, we wanted to have you on Lennox because New St Andrews, doug Wilson, has been in the news Often. It is, but in a significant way, because of a recent segment that CNN had with you and with Doug Wilson and other people associated with the ministry up there and that just aired. I think it was about two weeks ago and I believe it was prompted if I'm not, you could correct me but I believe it was prompted by the fact that Pete Hegseth yeah, the director of defense, the head of the Pentagon, the director of defense is attending one of Doug Wilson's branch churches right in Washington DC. Is that correct?
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yes, that's correct. So I believe that when Hegseth is in DC, that's the church he attends, but when he, I think, is back in Tennessee, he also attends a CREC church, which is a denomination that Doug Wilson started as well. So I suppose all that affiliation is pretty significant in many people's minds, but certainly that's what's sparked it and specifically the fact that there's this new church plant in DC, which has attracted significant names.
Scott Allen:Wow, that's exciting. I was really happy to hear that. I thought that that was very encouraging to me to know that you have, first of all, a church in Washington DC and that it is. It has people like Pete Heggs at the tending. I think that's wonderful. Lennox, you were actually. You had a part to play in that interview. Yeah, it was neat to see you on CNN. I was kind of like, wow, I know that guy and you know you said in the interview it was brief. You know your clip. All the clips were brief. You said that you moved from Africa to Moscow, to quote, build Christian institutions, and I wonder if you could just talk a little bit more about that, that vision that prompted you to pick up and make that kind of dramatic move, and what your experience has been like so far.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah.
Lennox Kalifungwa:I appreciate that question. It's interesting because, you know, when I mentioned this in the interview, what was edited in the final cut was about 15 seconds long, right, so it really was like a glorified cameo, if I can put it that way. Uh, but my entire conversation with him, with them, was about 40 to 45 minutes long, so I find it interesting that that's the one portion that they that they clipped, um, but I think it did still underscore a very big reason for what I'm doing. What i'm'm doing now, which is, you know, living in Moscow, involved with New St Andrews College, really to build Christian institutions.
Lennox Kalifungwa:And I believe that one of the ways that we shape culture effectively, one of the ways that we propagate a distinctly Christian culture, is by building institutions, and not just randomly building them, but actually building them with a fundamental ethos that is God-glorifying, that is people-focused as well and that has a tangible connection to the community that is being served. And I suppose, when I looked at New St Andrews College and when I looked at the Moscow Project as a whole, I thought that these were people who were really doing that well and I wanted to be a part of efforts that do that. I suppose the Lord has given me a pioneering mind, so to speak. I like to see things get off the ground, I like to see things grow, and I like to help institutions grow specifically, and the opportunity to be a part of these efforts was one I wanted to jump at.
Lennox Kalifungwa:And it's been such a rich experience so far. It's interesting because in many ways the Christian community in Moscow does get a lot of the headlines. We've had various publications do stories on us over time. Just in the recent past I think we've had Politico do something on us. Of course, cnn do something on us. I believe something with the Associated Press is also on its way, so we're constantly in the news.
Lennox Kalifungwa:But what impresses me most about Moscow is not so much what you see in the headlines per se, but it's just the fact that you have ordinary people whose names people might not know, who are just being faithful and and building things. So it's not just the big names who are building things, and it's it's all kinds of people. It's a culture of building here, there's a culture of of life giving, and I think that's what enables this town to be what it is, where you have this very significant Christian presence in a town that's actually largely liberal. So Idaho is very much a conservative state by and large and yet it does have these blue dots, and I think Moscow being one of them, specifically because we're right on the Washington border, but also because we have Washington State University just 15 minutes away and we have the University of Idaho in town as well, and I think that's actually the the ground that enables us to do our work so effectively. We want to engage with people in this way, and it's just amazing to see people who are sold out on this.
Lennox Kalifungwa:And when I talk about building institutions, yes, it does involve building businesses and institutions that have that kind of direct cultural impact, but it's also people being serious about building households, and faithful ones, being faithful in their marriages and raising their children in the fear of the Lord, being very intentional, also about being part of the church and in covenant fellowship with like-minded people, and I think that's actually the strength of this community. It's not so much in the flair and the lights, it's in, I think, the substance that enables us to be faithful day in, day out, week in, week out, and that's been a rich experience, and I think that's what it really takes to build and shape culture in a very effective way. And so, yeah, it's been an amazing time here. We've been here just over a year and I think the Lord has really blessed us.
Lennox Kalifungwa:in many ways it's been very fruitful and I just count it a privilege that I get to add or contribute something to such an excellent community already.
Scott Allen:That's fantastic. Yeah, I really resonate with what you're saying about you know building institutions and there in Moscow specifically, you mentioned you know just your own families. I mean, that's an institution. You mentioned the churches, of course, and then you've got the university there and then there's businesses as well. So I know that have come up from the graduates of New St Andrews some really prominent businesses that are having ripple effects around the nation and beyond.
Scott Allen:So you know, I think evangelicals, because of you, know particular bents in theology. I remember reading how in earlier generations evangelicals were quite good at building institutions, mission agencies, churches, schools, universities. But you know, over the last hundred years, with this kind of theology of escape, you know and you know the world's coming to an end and it's. You know everything is dark and you know we stopped, we stopped doing that largely, or we kind of narrowed down the scope of those schools that we were building to just teaching things like the Bible and don't bother with things like mathematics or science or economics, those kind of more cultural, worldly things. You know they don't really matter, they're coming to an end, you know. So I appreciate so much the spirit there in Moscow, at New St Andrews, that kind of rejects that idea that we need to be salt and light and build institutions that are blessing and honor Christ in our culture.
Scott Allen:So I want to come back though Lennox, if I could just to. You mentioned how you are in the news, not just CNN, you mentioned Politico and some other prominent news outlets. Tell me a little bit about how folks up there, yourself included, think about engaging with the media, particularly a hostile media. I mean, I would call CNN a hostile media in the sense that and you could see that in the interview, right they clearly aren't coming from your same basic set of presuppositions, worldview, and what you know, is that something? Those kinds of interviews with hostile media, is that something that you feel like you should? I mean, obviously you are engaging in, so I assume you feel like you should engage in them and if so, why?
Luke Allen:That's an excellent question.
Lennox Kalifungwa:I think, on one hand, we don't naturally go out of our way looking for those kinds of things and when they do happen, I think there's a sense in which we're encouraged by it because it means that we are being effective in at least being a compelling voice in the cultural conversation. So that's a good tell. When certain quarters get concerned about certain things, you know you're doing something, you know that you are leading a conversation or a prominent voice in a conversation, and that's certainly encouraging. And I think for that reason we have been very willing to engage and use that as an opportunity to share the truth. And what's interesting is and this is just some background of the CNN interview one of the things that the journalist who was interviewing us her name is Pamela Brown, and I should give a caveat that you know in the actual conversation she was very cordial and even off camera. I thought that she asked some very good questions. Her and her producer just came across as very sincere people.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Of course, the final edit might have been framed a certain way, but I think in the grand scheme of things it was a good opportunity, and I think not just an opportunity to air our thoughts to millions of people, but also just an opportunity to engage with individuals like her and seeing that as a really good opportunity.
Lennox Kalifungwa:This isn't just some machine. This actually involves people. No man has ever met a mere mortal, and so we care about being able to engage with everyone, every single individual we possibly can, and we see this as an opportunity really certainly to propagate ideas of truth, beauty and goodness and just being ourselves. I do think that the Lord has blessed Moscow in many ways, and there's a sense in which we'd like to share this blessing with other people and help people understand what it means to be a Christian, help people understand the implications of the gospel as well and what that looks like in practice, and that being the sort of light that makes people think and wonder oh wow, how can I experience that kind of freedom, how can I experience that kind of human flourishing and pointing them back to the cross? And I think that's really the goal in all this as well is we want to see people reconciled to God through Jesus Christ and living their lives under his lordship. That's the goal.
Lennox Kalifungwa:And so even with hostile media. There's actually a sense in which I think hostile media tends to have more of a viral effect in the way it's going to do things. I mean this CNN piece. It's just incredible just the many millions that have actually seen this and the kinds of conversations that it's prompted, and I think it's just a good, I'd say strategic way of continuing, I think what is a necessary conversation about truth and about culture. And yeah, we're grateful for those opportunities to do those kinds of things.
Scott Allen:You know, I guess I want to, I want to.
Scott Allen:I guess I've got questions myself about this, because after I watched the clip, I don't know how long it was, I think it was like five minutes, you know, in other words, you guys, I think you said you gave about a 40 minute interview with the journalist.
Scott Allen:Other people gave lengthy interviews, many, many minutes of interviews, and yet what you saw in the final cut, which you know was dramatically cut and edited I would say that the thrust of that segment was you know, here are some very frightening Christians up here in Moscow, idaho, christian nationalists that are trying to take over the country, and we need to be very cautious and worried about groups that are, you know, somewhat dangerous groups. That's my takeaway from kind of what they were trying to portray. And you know, in that clip and I'm sure you guys walked in with eyes wide open and figured, yeah, that's probably what's going to come out Did you have any agreement with them on the editing of that? Or did you just say, hey, whatever you do with these segments, these 40 minute interview clips is fine with us, or did? I was kind of curious.
Luke Allen:Yeah, and just just real quick before before that, just so people know that the title of this piece we're talking about it's about seven minutes is called he Thinks, referring to Doug Wilson. He thinks America should adoptoug wilson. He thinks america should adopt a christian theocracy, and he's finding a new audience under trump. So strong words, you know, it's just they're trying to. They're trying to paint a picture and all of that yeah, right, yeah, go ahead, let me show yeah, um, they really are.
Lennox Kalifungwa:So we didn't we didn't have any kind of agreement with them on this. I mean their cnn, they can do their their little bit. Um, I think we did have a requirement for us to record something on our end just to make sure that there's this transparency, should things not be represented accurately? Um, and so we, we fully expected that cnn would edit this in an interesting way, probably cut out a lot of things. That was to be expected, I think by and large, even though we kind of laugh at the way some of the things were cut, I think by and large it still turned out pretty good. I think we're generally quite happy with how it turned out. I think, even in the attempts to portray us a certain way and sort of provoke, push the needle there and get some people triggered on what's happening here, I'd like to believe that the truth still won in all of it and I think it prompted some good thought and some good conversation. There were many comments where people you know would respond and say, wow, well, if that's what's going on.
Lennox Kalifungwa:That actually sounds like a pretty good idea, would respond and say, wow, well, if that's what's going on, that actually sounds like a pretty good idea, and so I think what they might have meant for evil, I think in many ways, god has actually used for good. Now, of course, I don't think peace is always going to turn out like this per se. I think the one thing that they did a fairly decent job on was they did allow us to provide a little bit of context for what people would consider controversial convictions, and that certainly was helpful. But in the grand scheme of things, I think, yeah, I think it turned out. I think it turned out great. Yeah, with hostile media, you never know how it's really going to turn out, but all you can really do is tell the truth, be as mindful as possible of what you're saying and how you're saying it, and pray that that sticks.
Lennox Kalifungwa:And yeah it was interesting to see how this turned out, but overall I think it was pretty good.
Scott Allen:Yeah, I well, I'm glad you feel that way. I wrestled with it after I watched it because in my mind I was thinking of the primary audience that was going to be watching it. You know, the primary audience of CNN they're not evangelical Christians largely, you know, they're probably leaning left progressives, luke and I, you know, is, yeah, these are dangerous people, you know they are trying to. You know the handmaid's tale, right, they're trying to take us back to some very dark place and we need, you know, and they literally believe that. I mean, that's the literal way that they see us that they've been so shaped by a false narrative, right, but that's what they believe, and I was, I don't know. My concern is that we, you know, is it wise I guess I'll just say it, you know is it wise to allow them to kind of further that false narrative? You know, willingly.
Lennox Kalifungwa:But you're right, I mean.
Scott Allen:God knows, god knows what he's going to do with this, but those were some of my thoughts after I watched it, and I think those thoughts are quite understandable as well.
Lennox Kalifungwa:And you're right, I think a big part of it is just leaving it in the Lord's hands, speaking the truth and praying that it carries forward and that God uses it in fruitful ways.
Lennox Kalifungwa:I think the other side of it, though and I mean this might come off as very controversial, but I think that in a world that has built a glass house of lies, one of the most loving things you can do is shatter that glass house with the truth. And that's not to say you want to be provocative as an end in itself, but I think it's about speaking the truth, which is just provocative on its own to people who love lies is sometimes they kind of need to be shocked out of their lies and be prompted to think in different categories than they may be used to thinking, and sometimes things like that provide an opportunity for those kinds of things. Sometimes, I think what needs to happen is a willingness for people to disrupt cultural idols and not be polite to the idolatry.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Of course we want to love the people, but we want to absolutely see their idolatry ended, and sometimes the best way to do it is to utilize opportunities like this. And so sure, this would largely be an audience that doesn't have the best thoughts of what Christianity is. They think we're weirdos who are trying to ruin the world, so to speak, and there's a sense in which maybe that's just going to be an escape hole. I think scripture I forget which passage specifically this might be in Corinthians, if I'm not mistaken, or maybe Thessalonians, but the idea of you know the wisdom of God looking like foolishness to the world.
Luke Allen:I'm looking at that right now. Lennox, First Corinthians 2.14. Oh, there we go.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yes, and I think that actually is a very real thing, that Christians just need to embrace what we believe, as the truth is not necessarily going to be celebrated or liked by a non-believing world.
Lennox Kalifungwa:They're not going to like us, they're going to think that what we believe is foolish, and I think, in accepting that, that also frees us from the temptation to appease them, which I think is is an ineffective strategy.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Um, in the long term and I think christians have tried this and I don't think it's actually worked very effectively where we thought that, well, if we just learn to be like them and throw in jesus there, then we can win them that way and I don't think that's been a very effective strategy. In fact, if anything, I think it prompts a syncretism where you can still have degenerate expressions of culture alongside your Jesus and Christianity, and I think that's a dangerous thing. And so I think that it's healthy for Christians to actually be aware of the fact that we do live contra mundum, right against the world. This world is not a world that loves Christ, and because of that, it does not love his truth, it does not love his beauty, it does not love his goodness. Accept that. And yet it is the proclamation and the expression of that truth, beauty and goodness that will devastate that darkness, that will set them free, and that's what we want to see happen in a very significant way.
Luke Allen:So yeah.
Lennox Kalifungwa:I think that's the way that I try to think of this and approach it and, of course, trusting that the Lord's doing something with all of it. So yeah, I'm.
Luke Allen:I'm glad we we jumped into this discussion, because this is kind of where I was hoping to go. Today is, um, just the broader discussion of in a in a in a negative world, you know, which is where we live today, where there's there's two absolutely incongruent worldviews, incompatible worldviews that are at the forefront of the culture. How do we go about communicating in a world like this? We're all about discipling nations here. You're about that as well. Your slogan is all of Christ for all of America. I like that slogan. We might steal that.
Luke Allen:And how do we convey that in a world where people, no matter what we say? Well, some people will just hate us. Other people might listen to us, but maybe not for long, and they'll, they'll probably take everything that we say and skew it in the worst possible light, which is very easy to do. Um, I know I do that sometimes. People I disagree with, um.
Luke Allen:So how do we, how do we communicate in this world? And what we can't do is we can't just keep staying in our camps, not talking to each other. That's not going to work. It's going to come to a head at some point. So just communication in a world like this is difficult and, like you just said in 1 Corinthians, you know, the ways of the Spirit of God are foolishness to people who are unbelievers.
Luke Allen:So there's always that going against us in a way when we're trying to speak the truth, that going against us in a way when we're trying to speak the truth, so yeah, and then within the church there's this, there's this debate going on too between, I would kind of say that the tone police people that want Christians just to be nice and winsome all the time, and then, I would say, some people that definitely go on the too much of the I'm a hostile culture warrior and I want to bash people who disagree with me. I think, yeah, I've seen that in some Christian circles as well. They get a little too fired up about the warrior side of things. So there's a middle ground. But I just want to learn, I just want to keep this discussion going. Any reflections to all of that? Do you guys agree with my assessment there?
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, I think you're right on the money there, and I think this is why this is such an important and healthy discussion to have. Just, you know, like what? How should we be approaching this? What does it look like to really engage culture? And yes, on one hand, we there's the temptation to be too soft and nice and appeasing, and on the other side, there's the temptation of being hostile, and there's I don't want to say like, I don't want to necessarily synthesize those two and think that the synthesis of those two is the truth Exactly.
Lennox Kalifungwa:I think that there's a sense in which different contexts might actually require different approaches. Right, I think. I think sometimes you do need to be a little more combative. It's, it's the picture of Boniface with his axe chopping down Thor's oak and there's a place for that.
Lennox Kalifungwa:But I think I think, generally speaking, I think as Christians, our aim has got to be definitely confronting cultural idolatry, but also in actually building an alternative, and I think that's kind of where we have we've been lacking for the most part. We don't really know what it looks like to stand on an alternative that's actually tangible and potent. So where you see lies and you want to confront the lies, we ought to be seeking to propagate truth and beauty and goodness in very tangible ways, which, in one of those one way of doing that, as we spoke about earlier, is actually building Christian institutions. Like that is a tangible way that we develop an alternative for people pursuing specific things. To kind of circle back to some of your initial question here, luke, and line of thought is I think one of the ways that we can also engage very effectively is by kind of touching where it hurts, right? So, for example, no one likes a bad economy, right? No one likes to have to experience high inflation, and that can actually be a very good conversation starter, even for hostile people, and you're just getting them to think about things like where do you think a bad economy comes from, and you're kind of taking them to the logical conclusion of these things, where you can actually display Christianity as the best alternative to all the nonsense and the chaos that we see.
Lennox Kalifungwa:We might have spoken on this on a different podcast, but it is kind of what's happened to someone like Richard Dawkins, for example, or Tom Holland, to a degree where, as they see concerns in the culture, that prompts them to think and wonder hmm, maybe there is something to this Christianity. I mean someone like Dawkins, maybe there is something to this Christianity. I mean someone like Dawkins, who is perhaps one of the most famous atheists in the modern era. It's just fascinating to see him referring to himself as a cultural Christian, you know whatever that means. But I think it's just because, as he compares notes in terms of what a non-Christian worldview has produced in comparison to a Christian worldview, there's a very stark difference there, and so I think that it would actually be strategic for us to kind of actually begin with where it hurts and seeking to bring about order in the places where there is visible chaos, and I think that's a strategic point that we could use to even start that kind of conversation, and more than just starting a conversation, going back to that idea of building alternatives, building institutions, building things and beyond just building institutions as well, I think, just being the kind of people that are a physical antithesis to the lies.
Lennox Kalifungwa:So, for example, in a world of lies, you want to tell the truth. In a world of escapism, fatalism and despondency, you want to be the kind of person that lives with a sense of hope and joy. In a world where there's so much destruction, we should be seeking to want to bring aesthetic value to absolutely everything. In the way that we build and design our homes, in the way that we carry ourselves, in the way that we just go about our work, just doing it with a sense of excellence, all those things are actually potent tools in this cultural apologetic that we're seeking to establish. And so, yeah, engagement is more than just in fact, I would say it is not a shouting match in that sense, it must involve so much more. So, yes, on one hand you're fighting evil, but on the other hand you're building and establishing good.
Luke Allen:Yeah, that was just me rambling for a little bit. No, I really love that. I mean, in the rules of warfare today, in the culture war, the way it's being played out is so often. I know exactly what I'm against, but I can't really tell you what I'm for. It's all about just bashing the other side. This is terrible ideas and then being done. You're like I did my job, I bashed them and I hopped on X and I and I tore down their posts, you know, and dunk on the liberals, right, and it's it's like okay, but what are you actually for? What are you building? What's behind you?
Luke Allen:The only reason Richard Dawkins calls himself a cultural Christian is because he's observed the institutions that were built within a Christian nation and the beauty that came from that. The only reason Tom Holland is a Christian now is because he studied the history of the Christianity of the West and he saw the institutions that Christians built and the goodness and beauty that those brought to the West. It's too bad that they have to look to the past to find those things and not exactly look to the present, which says volumes for how much we're building right now. But yeah, there's a lot to be said about living these things out. The institutions you're building being paradoxical in that right, like a lot of people who you know dislike me, would probably say, stereotype me as someone who hates women's right to choose and wants to burn the planet or something like that. And I want to be.
Luke Allen:A paradox to that is I love my wife and I love my kids and I love my wife's ability to choose and her ability to have freedom within God's boundaries. And I love my kids and I'm raising them well and I love this beautiful planet that God's created, because I know the artist Like that's paradoxical and that doesn't really make sense to them. But my life should also reflect that right. I should be building a life that reflects the truth of that and when you do that, it's hard to argue with. When you see the way God's created us to live being lived out, it obviously is the best way to live because we live in God's world, and when people see that, it's hard to argue with that. That's that kind of building those institutions framed off of the lifestyle that God's given us to live in.
Lennox Kalifungwa:You know, luke, you've touched on something here that I think is actually so important and I think is important to emphasize as well.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Important and I think is important to emphasize as well, like when you mentioned how men like Holland and Dawkins have to look at the past in order to see something significant regarding Christianity as opposed to looking at the modern world and seeing good examples of Christianity in this time period and it makes me wonder just the state of Christianity as a whole, the state of the church and one of the things and we might have talked about this in previous conversations, but I firmly believe that the state of the culture is the resume of the church- there's a sense in which Christ's victory over sin and over death and his authority over absolutely everything means that he already owns everything, and he calls us as his people, as his redeemed people, to be his ambassadors and to be salt and light in this world in a very potent way.
Lennox Kalifungwa:I mean, the way Paul describes this gospel that we proclaim is it's a gospel that has the power to transform. It's the power of God unto salvation. And you wonder, like, are we doing something with this gospel? Are we actually being the kind of light that we need to be? And it may be that we don't actually believe that our convictions are real, like I think there's a sense in which we think of them in abstraction and we think of Christ like a king, but not really a king. We think of Christianity as this kind of true religion, but what kind of implications does it have for the real world? And I think that's actually where we struggle.
Lennox Kalifungwa:I don't think we'd be able to necessarily put it in those words, but I think what I'm trying to hit at here is that what are the kinds of people who might ourselves in some way struggle with the truth of it all, with truth on its own?
Lennox Kalifungwa:Like, is this truth actually real. Sure, we might be able to say that it holds up in a good debate, but is it actually real, is the question, and I think men tend to live by what they perceive to be real. If you really want to know what people believe, look at how they live. They always live in light of what they perceive to be reality, whether that's actually falsehood or true. And I think that, as Christians, one of the ways that for sure that we know if we're really believing and abiding by the truth is, on one hand, the degree to which we are free and living as free people and the degree to which we are living in and propagating human flourishing as a whole. I mention all this because we need to underscore the importance of checking our own convictions and actually assessing whether we believe our convictions to be truly real, and so it's important, I think, that as Christians, as the church, that we reckon with that in order for us to be able to build effectively.
Scott Allen:Lennox, if I could come back to the interview for a second, because the kind of the narrative that was trying to be portrayed of the work in Moscow, idaho, there and the various institutions and ministries you know is very negative.
Scott Allen:You know the word theocracy appears in the title and yet when I talk to some Christians not just, you know, to a typical audience member of CNN, but even other Christians and I mentioned Doug Wilson or the work up in Moscow some people will, they'll share some of those. You know, those concerns. Let's just say you know and wonder, you know what exactly is happening up there. And if I'd like to just take a second and have you kind of just respond to some of the concerns that I hear, and typically in the way that they're posed as well, if you don't mind, maybe we can go quickly through some of these concerns.
Scott Allen:Yeah, one of the concerns is you're trying to set up kind of a new Geneva, you know, calvin's Geneva, so to speak, taking over the town in the city of Moscow, idaho. Are you trying to take it over and, if so, how?
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, very simply, yes, we are trying to take it over. Ok, we were trying to take it over not because we're trying to build a name or a kingdom for ourselves, but because Christ already owns this town and we are his ambassadors that God has strategically and purposefully placed in this context to build and to grow things and to exercise that cultural mandate as best as we possibly can. And so, in that sense, absolutely we're not going to apologize for who our Lord is and what he's doing in this world Now the means of doing so.
Scott Allen:What does that look like practically, you know, in terms of you know that's a kind of a triggering phrase taking over the town?
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yes, it is. So what does that look like?
Scott Allen:practically what does that mean you know what are you specifically doing? Maybe on things like city council, school board, I don't know what you know? Just get into the nuts and bolts of that a little bit if you could.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, yeah, I think the one thing is just one, just the proclamation of the gospel, right? So like that, evangelistic emphasis is important. I think when many people think of taking over the town in the way it's often posited, they're thinking that we're replacing the gospel with some sort of political tool to do so. No, not at all. We believe it is the word of God, the potency of the gospel, that wins over people. It's powerful to transform individuals and it's powerful to transform cultures, and that's the primary means through which we're doing this. And so we're not necessarily running the liberals out of town, unless they just don't want to live alongside Christians, but we're actually seeking to love our neighbor, and we do so by proclaiming the truth to them and seeking to serve them as best as we can. So that's where it begins. And then the other side of it is we encourage a culture of life and fertility.
Lennox Kalifungwa:I think one of the tenets of the modern world is that it seems to essentially be a culture of death. Of course, the number one cause of murder in this world is abortion. It's the murder of children, of unborn children, and there's a sense in which we've normalized this. But I think beyond that. I think a culture of death is also one that doesn't encourage fruitfulness, it doesn't encourage things like ownership, for example, which is why communism and socialism are terrible ideas. And what we want to be doing as Christians is promoting this culture of life and fertility, and we do so by having good marriages, by wanting children and and seeking to raise them in the fear of the Lord. It's in just seeking to turn a profit and all those things that God has given us, and that's a tangible thing. So, for example, the Christians in Moscow, that that's something that we take very seriously. We want to nurture that culture of life in our own spaces and that actually has. It's amazing the kind of effect that has on the broader culture, and that's an important aspect.
Lennox Kalifungwa:And then the other aspect as well is just that building of Christian businesses. So we've got several Christian businesses in town and you can feel it. You go in there and there's a tangible difference in the service. For example. There's this people-focused approach to the way that people establish businesses, and that's a real thing. And undergirding all those things really is just establishing our orientation towards God first and foremost. So I'd say that, in that sense, probably the core institution of all of this really is the church and people being gathered together in fellowship, worshipping the Lord Sunday after Sunday.
Lennox Kalifungwa:It's interesting, people think about that and they're like what does that have to do with taking over the town? It's interesting, people think about that and they're like what does that have to do with taking over the town? It's like, well, absolutely everything, because politics flows downstream from culture, which flows downstream from religion, and so you actually can't divorce those two things. And it's only when we get our worship ordered rightly that we can really begin to influence culture and influence politics. And so that's what we're trying to get right.
Lennox Kalifungwa:We want to get that religion right, we want to get that religion right, we want to get our worship right, and we want that to spill over into the kind of cultures that we form in our own homes, the kind of cultures that we form in the institutions that we establish, and that then has, I think, an influence on how people think politically and what they practice politically. In Moscow we still have our work cut out for us on the political front, but in our understanding of taking over the town, it starts with worship, and then we want the culture and we then pray that that will spill over into actual, real political influence as well, and other things too, not just politics, but the whole of life.
Scott Allen:So, so yeah, because when I think of a local community like Moscow, you know, which isn't much, it's about the same size as the town that you know Luke and I are living in here in Oregon, bend, you know, I think of. You know, when I think of the heart of the polis, if you will, the community, you know, you think of things like public schools and the city council, city government that's making policies that affect the life of the community. You obviously think of the church too, right, but right now the church is, because of their sacred-secular divide and their thinking, often, you know, they're not engaged right in a lot of the you know, or if they are, they kind of tend to keep their head down because it tends to be kind of a hostile culture. So you express your faith privately, you know, and in church, but you don't really know how to do it publicly. You know so. But back to you guys, in Moscow, there are you, do you have people on city council, school boards, some of those kinds of things?
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, that's a good question. I honestly think that that's the next thing we don't. In fact, what people don't realize is in Moscow, we have a city council that is very aggressive in opposing the Christians in town. You can essentially, in fact, people who they discover are part of our church community, effectively get blacklisted, and that's a real problem, and so I think we certainly have our work cut out for us in that sense, and there's much to be done.
Lennox Kalifungwa:I think that that's the next phase that we probably need to be working on effectively, I think there's a sense in which, yes, we've got the worship right, yes, we have certainly shaped and influenced the culture of Moscow, but, as far as the political arena goes, we certainly still have our work cut out for us.
Scott Allen:So, yeah, Let me move on, if I could, because I think this gets into kind of the tactics as well, and that includes language like taking over, you know, and I know that triggers people, you know because it implies kind of almost warfare, you know. And again, there's definitely a place for warfare imagery in the scriptures, but this idea that we're going to take it over for most people brings up kind of imagery of kind of a hostile takeover.
Luke Allen:You know, I just think of a Western.
Scott Allen:Yeah, yeah, right, you know, yeah we're going to, you know, come out with the guns and take it over, um, and and so, yeah, and even some Christians have that idea. They. I was just talking to somebody recently and they said, um, that when it comes to the tactics they are, they're tactics of force and coercion, but I thought I don't believe that. Could you speak to that, because I think there?
Luke Allen:is that idea that who has tactics of force and coercion?
Scott Allen:The Christian community up in Moscow, idaho, that when they're talking about taking over or they're talking about America being a Christian nation, the tactics employed in that would be wouldn't uphold freedom or liberty, religious liberty. It would really be more of kind of a force and coercion, kind of an idea To speak to.
Lennox Kalifungwa:That I assume a false view, but I'd like you to address that if you could, lennox, yeah, it is a false view, and that's because you can't force or coerce someone into really being a Christian in that sense, because in a sense, that's the work of the Holy Spirit. Our job is to propagate that truth that then the Holy Spirit seeks to apply and convert someone, and so that's certainly our fundamental approach. It's not force or coercion. In fact, something that we often like to say is that in the sort of Christian nation or Christian town that we're seeking to establish, there'd actually be more freedoms than they are currently right.
Scott Allen:Okay, just on that, if I could just right there, because there's a lot of confusion on that and I know I struggled, you know, for quite a while. How do you affirm religious freedom, you know the freedom of the conscience and yet kind of boldly proclaim Christ's supremacy over the nations? I think people struggle with that. How do those go together? Could you address that, lennox?
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, oh. We could get into so many weeds here for sure. I think the first thing that I'll say to that for sure is that even this idea of religious liberty needs to be defined correctly. There's a sense in which, for as long as people hold to false religions, they can't be free, and the irony of many of those other religions is that they're actually very intolerant of religions that oppose them.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Christianity is actually the only religion that, while being true, is the one that actually has a model for how to engage with religions that are opposed to it. For example, you don't want more Islam, right? Because Islam will absolutely suffocate everything. There is no freedom of religion in that sense in Islam. There is no freedom of religion in many other nations and systems that are not Christian, and so what you have distinctly in Christian nations is a greater freedom to one worship the true and living God, and I think there's actually like this downstream effect that even those who don't necessarily bow their knee to Christ would have more freedom in a Christian republic, because Christians do not rule through force and coercion. In that sense, they begin with this proclamation of the gospel and so in that model—.
Scott Allen:If I could just underline that, I just think what you're saying is so important and so misunderstood that I think the first thing to say on that is Christianity alone uniquely— undergirds or supports first of all the concept of freedom, and specifically freedom of conscience, or what we would call religious liberty. Okay, and when I say that just what you're saying, I'm just underscoring what you just said. Lennox, no other religion, no other worldview Marxism, secularism, islam, I don't care, you name it they don't support the idea of freedom of conscience or freedom of religion, precisely. Yeah. So that needs to be understood. Yes, to say we want to have a Christian nation is to say the same thing as we want to have a nation that upholds and respects religious liberty, and I know that those things people struggle with. That, like if you want a purely secular nation. That's kind of what we've moved to and what you see is you?
Scott Allen:see the erosion of freedom, absolutely the erosion of freedom of speech. You know, you name it, even just religious liberty, we're going to make you I always think about this in examples like Jack Phillips of the Baker in Colorado. We're going to make you bake that cake, you know. You know they use these force and coercive tactics. You know everyone does except the church. And so again, when you say, take over Moscow, you're not talking about taking it over by force, right, okay?
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, exactly. So it's not taking over by force, it's just the understanding that Christianity has the exclusive when it comes to freedom and when it comes to flourishing. And so, out of love for our neighbors, sure we want them to be Christian, because we want them to experience true freedom and true flourishing.
Lennox Kalifungwa:For as long as they persist in their false religions, they're never going to experience and enjoy that, and it would be actually unloving to not want them to be Christian, because then there's all kinds of bondage and destruction attached to that, and so in that sense, christianity is actually good for the world.
Lennox Kalifungwa:That's exactly what the world needs, and so I'm talking about establishing Christian towns and nations.
Lennox Kalifungwa:This is a sense in which what we're trying to do is to get every knee to bow, but it's not just every knee in sort of this external sort of way.
Lennox Kalifungwa:We're talking about a Christianity that appeals to people's thoughts and their affections and their wills, where they, because of the work of the gospel of Jesus Christ, are seeking to submit every single area of their lives to the lordship of Jesus Christ. Like that's what we're seeking to do, and in this sense it has, I think. In a sense, christ's kingdom is not confined to our little hearts, so it does go beyond that, and maybe that's kind of where people kind of struggle with, when you kind of have this vision for Christianity that applies in actual physical public spaces. And the truth is, because Christ is king over all spaces, we should be seeking to submit all these areas of life to him, helping people acknowledge his kingship in every single way. And so in taking over a town, I mean it is in a sense using a term that the Bible gives us. It is this exercise of dominion, it is part, I think of that great commission to go and disciple the nations.
Scott Allen:It's all encompassing that way. Yeah, if I could cut in right there too, because the dominion of Christ, the kingship of Christ over this world, is something that a lot of Christians don't believe. I mean, just this week, Larry Arndt, the president of Hillsdale College, you know, he was on a podcast that got a lot of coverage, the conversation I think it was with who's the pastor there?
Lennox Kalifungwa:Kevin DeYoung.
Scott Allen:Kevin DeYoung yeah, and they were talking about Christian nations and Larry Arndt said well, america won't be a Christian nation because Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world. I hear that all the time. It just came up in a conversation with a Christian nation because Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world. I hear that all the time. It just came up in a conversation with a Christian friend the other day, you know, when we were talking about influencing culture as Christians, they said well, you know, but Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world. What's your response to that? That's a very common.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, I'm actually trying to pull up some scripture here, um, just so that we're fighting fire with fire here, um, but um did that reference to? To to my kingdom, none of this world, is a reference to, to to john 18 specifically, um, and this is christ. I think he's before pontius pilate and he makes the statement my kingdom is not this world, otherwise I would have had the Jews around me fighting for this kingdom.
Luke Allen:And that's not to say.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Well, to backtrack here, there's a big difference between Jesus saying my kingdom is not of this world and him saying my kingdom is not in this world.
Lennox Kalifungwa:What Christ is saying is that the source of my kingdom is different from the source of many earthly kingdoms. Earthly kingdoms seek to establish themselves by sword right, but my kingdom transcends this, so it's absolutely everywhere, but it's not built from the same sort of substance. And just a few passages I want to read here because I think it's just healthy to bring Scripture to light on this. Of course there's Matthew 28, verse 18, which says and Jesus came and said to them all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Psalms 24, verse 1 says the earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof, the world and those who dwell therein. Isaiah 6, verse 3, says and one called to another and said holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts. The whole earth is full of his glory. Daniel 7, verse 14, says and to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom that all peoples, nations and languages should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Anyway, there's like so many other passages we could point to that profoundly illustrate the kingship of Christ over absolutely everything. And it's interesting. I might have mentioned this earlier in this conversation, but I think when people use those terms like king of kings and lord of lords, they often think of this as a metaphor. You know, like you know, jesus is like a king and he is like a lord. They don't actually think of it as a reality. Well, if he really is king of kings, then wow, even the kings of the earth must bow to him.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Like that means everything absolutely belongs to him. If he's lord of lords, if you're really a sovereign, as scripture says, then that means that he really is ruling and reigning in a very real way, and I think that's something that we need to push, which is why it matters to apply his word to absolutely everything. I think the problem with truncating the domain of Christ and some people like to think of it as only pertaining to salvation right, there's only a soteriological focus to this, and we then tend to read the Bible only into the spaces that we think Christ rules over, which is why, then, we think the Bible only talks about salvation but is holy and fit for everything else. But I think if we really understand the domain of Christ as being all encompassing, then I think we'd understand that his word then has relevance and, I'd say, authority over every single domain of life that influences the way we think about law, politics, economics, science, agriculture you name it absolutely everything Absolutely correct.
Scott Allen:The idea that most evangelicals have, I think, is just what you're saying. Christ, when he says Christ is king, you know he's king over my heart or he's king over the church, but that's where it ends, and you know beyond that. You know my kingdom is not of this world, and I always want to respond to people that say that of okay. Well, if Christ isn't king of this world, then who is? In other words, who has supreme authority? You know, if it's not Christ who does, is it President Trump? Is it Xi Jinping? Is it? You know who does, right? You?
Luke Allen:know, is it?
Scott Allen:Satan.
Lennox Kalifungwa:You know, is it Satan who has supreme authority and you use those examples. But you're right on the money, scott. In China, that's exactly how it's seen, because they don't believe in God. They believe the state is God and therefore their president becomes treated as a deity. And we need to say very clearly as Christians that's a lie, you are not the king.
Scott Allen:Jesus is the king. I like the way that. Who was it? I think it was NT Wright. He said Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world, but my kingdom is for this world. You know, I think it was something like that and I love that. You know, it's true, my kingdom is from heaven, but it's for this world. You know, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. So it's just again. I just I want to just take a little time on that because it's such a confusion. I keep running into that. People love that phrase. Well, jesus said my kingdom's not of this world, and then the subtext is so don't engage in this world, don't engage in politics and in community life and things like that, because that's just, that's some other realm that Christians shouldn't be that concerned about, right, you know so I think something I've been thinking about in the line of this discussion as well is when we're talking about who's the king of the world.
Luke Allen:A kingdom always has subjects right, and if you ask a lot of Christians who are the subjects in this kingdom, if we're going to accept that God's kingdom is on earth, they would say Christians and no, everyone Right. We're all subjects of the king, every human, ever. And for that reason it's a lot easier to have a vision for discipling nations, because it's not that we're marching our army from the kingdom into the nations, it's that the nation's already God's. The people of that nation are already subjects of the king and we're showing them that they are, we're letting them know that they are subjects of the king, essentially Shining light on that.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, like there's a sense in which we're not—.
Scott Allen:In the kingdom of God, where every knee will bow and every tongue confess. But at this present time you don't see that. There's a passage in Hebrews that speaks to that. But at this present time, you know, we don't see that. We see a lot of rebellion and people making themselves out to be kings themselves. You know the radical autonomy of the individual or the state or whatever it is. That's Christ's, you know how would you describe that? That's his tolerance, at least for a period of time. You know of this rebellion, but it's going to come to an end, you know so.
Luke Allen:Yeah, I mean, that's Romans 1, right, verse 21,. For although they knew God, they know God, they know the King, they've exchanged the truth of God for lies and worshiped and served the created things rather than the creator.
Scott Allen:And God allows that he allows that he doesn't force people, so to speak. This is again, this is the basis of religious liberty. He doesn't force it. He tries to woo people in love and grace, to bow the knee, at least for now. But there will be a day, okay, when every knee will pound, every tongue can press whether they want to or not, Right? So yeah, yeah.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Psalm 2 tells us as much. The kings of the earth must kiss the sun lest he be angry and they perish on the way. He's a real king. He holds the kings of earth to account and they must bow before him because he is king. And in that sense, even when we think about what discipling the nations means, we're not asking permission from people. In a sense, we're actually making a proclamation that this is who Jesus is.
Lennox Kalifungwa:He is Lord, but this is also what he's done for sinners. So trust him, obey him, live in humble obedience to him. And I think we still live in this world where we think Christians are still asking for permission and apologizing for being Christians in some way, by not actually exercising dominion in the way that they ought to, by not discipling the nations as we're describing here. Our king is the one who's given us permission, he is the one that has commissioned us as his ambassadors to engage in this world, and I think we need to recover our confidence in that.
Scott Allen:I want to go back to something you said earlier, lennox, about our approach or tactics is kind of what we're talking about, about how Christians do this work of honoring Christ as king and really engaging in culture in a way that brings positive and tangible change. You said that you know there's a place for both kind of a kind of a wartime footing and a kind of a more aggressive challenge of the lies or whatever it is I'm not quite sure how to describe that and there's also a time to be building relationships and, you know, building trust, and the context really determines a lot of that, and I think you see both of those in Jesus's ministry too. You know, I think one of the things that we got to be careful of is kind of saying it's all this or it's all that. Right, and I appreciate it.
Scott Allen:You said that earlier that context is important and using all the tools in the tool bag, right, you know, sometimes grace and love and trust, and you know reaching out across that divide of hostility is, and you know is really important, and other times it's important to stand kind of. You mentioned Boniface, or whatever it is. You know there's times where we have to be, you know, and so I thought that was a great observation. Yeah.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, yeah.
Scott Allen:I think it's. It's just, it's important like not all contexts are going to be the same.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Some contexts need a different voice, um, for example, in more fatalistic cultures. I think it's very important to have a very optimistic tone, um, in engaging them in cultures that are just outrightly blasphemous. Perhaps that's where you want to use more of that prophetic Isaiah type voice, where you're actually confronting and mocking their idolatry.
Lennox Kalifungwa:But it's not all going to look the same in every single context, and that actually requires us to not be enslaved to myopia, like we actually have to be aware of who we're engaging with, as opposed to merely loving the sound of our own voices. I think we have to learn to understand how to communicate two different contexts effectively, and that requires kind of bursting our own bubbles sometimes and trying to develop a language that's actually effective for communication.
Scott Allen:That's good. You know the Bible puts emphasis on truth and love. You know grace and truth. You know Jesus is filled with grace and truth and truth and love and both of those you know are so important and the context in which you emphasize maybe one over the other is kind of what we're talking about. But they both need to be present, I think, and it's okay if some group or some people you know kind of feel like, hey, we want to put the emphasis on truth and others maybe on love. There's a place for both. I think we've got to be careful with that. Luke, we're probably needing to wrap up here. I just want to create some space here for you. I'm sure you've got some thoughts or things you want to kind of wrap up with here with Lennox.
Luke Allen:Well, I mean, I'd be remiss to wrap up a conversation with Lennox without bringing up Lord of the Rings.
Lennox Kalifungwa:So as you guys are talking right now about truth and love.
Luke Allen:I'm just thinking of Gandalf. He, on one hand, is the fatherly, grandfather-like figure to the hobbits. He looks out for them in the beginning and he comes and shoots off fireworks at their birthday parties. But then, on the other side he's storming the gates of Mordor. That's just what I was picturing, yeah, and.
Lennox Kalifungwa:I think even the picture of these little creatures who don't have a natural disposition in combat don't have a natural disposition in combat but, gandalf, recognizing that they actually need to assume responsibility for their well-being of their own places by actually getting out the door, like you actually do need to go on this adventure, you do need to go have experiences with dragons and orcs and all of it.
Scott Allen:You need to pick up a sword. Yeah, exactly exactly.
Lennox Kalifungwa:So and I think that's actually a very apt example you've given there, luke Gandalf kind of pushing people towards both Like sure, enjoy your garden and your fellowship and your merrymaking, but also recognize that, oftentimes in order to enable that and preserve that one does need to go and do some dangerous things. That are risky but they are good. And yeah, yeah, that's important.
Scott Allen:It always comes up.
Lennox Kalifungwa:No it has to.
Luke Allen:Okay, peggy over to you.
Scott Allen:Well, that's it. Yeah, Lennox, any final thoughts from you as we wrap up today? I really appreciate the conversation and just the clarification and just the deeper insight into you and the ministry there in Moscow with the New St Andrews and the group.
Scott Allen:I really do respect and count what you guys are doing up there as important as allies, as making a difference as well. So, even though it may not be everyone's cup of tea, you know, I think what you're doing is really important, showing some important things, some important ways of being Christians in this time in the country, given the crises we're facing.
Lennox Kalifungwa:So, yeah, final thoughts from you, yeah, yeah, I think just a final thought that I think is important in all of it as well is, you know, when people do hear some of the words that we employ towards trying to establish distinctly Christian contexts, we ought to be intentional about the words that we employ, and so in our use of the word like theocracy, for example, there's a sense in which we ought not to let the non-believers assume ownership of these terms and seek to redefine them. I think there's probably no one who understands what I'm saying better than you, scott.
Lennox Kalifungwa:I think that your book On Ten Words is actually one of the best books out there that really proposes a very similar idea and recognizing that there is a war for the dictionary taking place even within culture that there is a war for the dictionary taking place even within culture, and we need to be willing to I think one just redeem words but also be very intentional in the kinds of words that we're using in our cultural engagement and I think that's a very important component of it. So, even a word like dominion, people are going to try to demonize it, and yet that's a word that God actually gives us, and so we ought to employ that as Christians.
Scott Allen:But, yeah, I think that's good. The whole discussion of words and definitions of words it gets right back to what we were talking about earlier. If Jesus is truly king, not just of heaven but of earth, then he has the right, as the king, to define words right. If he's not, then we can define words and we can change those definitions. Right? If he's not, then we can define words and we can change those definitions. Right, and definitions really don't matter that much because they're constantly in flux and fluid.
Scott Allen:But if he's the king and if he spoke, which he did, and he recorded his revelation in words in the scripture, and he defined words like justice and truth and whatnot, then we have to respect his kingship authority here on earth in terms of those definitions. And so I have challenged Christians yeah, you know, jesus is just king of heaven, he's not king of the earth. Well, do you treat his word that way, you know? Or does his word have binding authority even here on earth, not just even in the church, but in a culture Like can the culture have a different definition of justice than the church? Is that okay?
Scott Allen:So it puts that whole discussion in a really, I think, very helpful light actually. So good.
Lennox Kalifungwa:I think you might need to write a follow-up to this, scott, but it's become my very firm conviction that, you know, one of the tools of our warfare in cultural engagement and as we're seeking to build distinctly Christian cultures, is the necessity of developing actual Christian lexicons. Christian cultures is the necessity of developing actual Christian lexicons, actual dictionaries to promote literacy in a, in a, in a, in a holistic and robust way.
Luke Allen:So yeah, you're the man to write it. No, that was I mean, honestly I.
Scott Allen:I just, I'm just excited about the idea. It was great man Like you know, noah Webster, you know that really had that conviction. We need new Noah Websters. I'm not sure I'm the one, but we need them, so anyways. Well, listen, lennox. Thank you so much for this really rich discussion. It's just a joy and appreciate the depth of insight. So keep up the good work. Give our greetings to your friends and coworkers there up there in Idaho in the ministry and hopefully we'll have you on again soon.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Anytime. Thank you so much.
Luke Allen:Thanks again for tuning in to another episode here on Ideas have Consequences.
Luke Allen:If you'd like to learn more about our good friend Lennox Kalafunga and the amazing work that he is doing over in Moscow, make sure to look in the episode show notes, as we've included more information about him, his writing, his work at New St Andrews and his two podcasts, which are titled Of Flames and Crowns and Of Kings and Statesmen.
Luke Allen:I would recommend both of those podcasts myself. If you'd like to listen to a great episode on his podcast Of Flames and Crowns, I would recommend the episode he actually did earlier this year with my dad, where my dad talked about his newest book 10 Words to Heal Our Broken World, restoring the True Meanings of Our Most Important Words. I've also included a link to that episode down in the show notes as well. So with that, thanks again for listening. We truly appreciate your guys' time and attention as you listen in each week to these episodes. It's truly humbling and encouraging to see how many of you guys are tuning in to the podcast. So we just wanted to appreciate you guys for listening in today and with that we hope you'll be able to tune in again next week here on Ideas have Consequences.
