Ideas Have Consequences
Everything that we see around us is the product of ideas, of ideologies, of worldviews. That's where everything starts. Worldviews are not all the same, and the differences matter a lot. How do you judge a tree? By its fruits. How do you judge a worldview? By its physical, tangible, observable fruit. The things it produces. Ideas that are noble and true produce beauty, abundance, and human flourishing. Poisonous ideas produce ugliness. They destroy and dehumanize. It really is that simple. Welcome to Ideas Have Consequences, the podcast of Disciple Nations Alliance, where we prepare followers of Christ to better understand the true ideas that lead to human flourishing while fighting against poisonous ideas that destroy nations. Join us, and prepare your minds for action!
Ideas Have Consequences
The Two Extremes: Ignoring or Idolizing Politics | Richard Nelson
Episode Summary:
When the church stays quiet, society suffers. In this episode, Richard Nelson joins us to explore how Christians can faithfully engage in politics without falling into one of two extremes: ignoring politics or putting too much hope in and idolizing politics. We tackle common misconceptions about the separation of church and state and look at the chilling effects of the Johnson Amendment, which prohibits 501(c)(3) nonprofit organizations from engaging in any political campaign activity. Since most churches have this status, the amendment applies to them. Richard urges the church to disciple believers in speaking truth with integrity, resist partisan co-opting, and address pressing moral issues like conscience rights for healthcare workers. This conversation challenges Christians to step boldly into public life with a biblical vision rooted in truth, integrity, and a fear of God above all else.
Who is Disciple Nations Alliance (DNA)? Since 1997, DNA’s mission has been to equip followers of Jesus around the globe with a biblical worldview, empowering them to build flourishing families, communities, and nations. 👉 https://disciplenations.org/
🎙️Featured Guest:
Richard Nelson is the founder and Executive Director of the Commonwealth Policy Center. He has served on multiple state and local boards, including chairing both the Hopkinsville Community College Board and the Pennyrile Christian Community Board. From 2010 to 2014, he was an elected magistrate on the Trigg County Fiscal Court. He’s an active member of Buck Run Baptist Church in Frankfort.
Richard’s background includes work as a policy analyst, and a representative for several public policy organizations. He holds a B.S. in biology and a Master’s in public policy.
Father of three girls and a boy, he resides in Franklin County with his wife Bobby Jo on Dry Ridge Farm.
📌 Recommended Links
👉 Recomended Episode: Christian, Stop Avoiding Politics with Richard Nelson - Disciple Nations Alliance
👉 Guest’s Website: Commonwealth Policy Center | Frankfort, KY
👉 Bible Study: 10 Words to Heal Our Broken World by Scott Allen
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You know, this is where the evangelical church does get it right. You know, in terms of it's just we need to see people saved right, and I'm completely on board with that. I think where it goes wrong is it says once they're saved, that's kind of job done and I'm always like no, that's job begun and now they have to live out the implications of that in all areas, including politics.
Richard Nelson:Jesus didn't save his church just to pull it out of society. He saved people to live different lives within the societal context that they're in, and this was true for the early church. Back then it had huge implications for how they did life, and it's just as true for us today.
Luke Allen:Hi friends, welcome back to. Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. Here on this show, we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world to all the nations, but our mission also includes being the hands and feet of God to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.
Luke Allen:My name is Luke Allen, I am the producer of this show, and today I am joined by our host. And my name is Luke Allen, I am the producer of this show, and today I am joined by our host and my dad, scott Allen. Hey dad, how you doing? Hey, luke, great to be with you. Yeah, this is fun. We just hopped off a great discussion with a friend of ours who was back on the podcast for a second time this year, richard Nelson. And just coming away from that discussion, dad, before we hop into it, could you just give our listeners a quick idea of what they're about to get into what we talked about?
Scott Allen:Absolutely. You know, richard is kind of our go-to person when we talk about issues of Christian engagement in politics, which is a very kind of controversial and unclear area of kind of a hot button issue, and so Richard is just a really even-tempered, you know, clear-thinking person to go to. Today we talked about why. You know, why is it that Christians are hesitant so many are hesitant, including pastors to engage on issues of politics? We got into some issues around what's called the Johnson Amendment, but it was really a helpful thing to kind of go back and look at. Why is it that there's this kind of reticence, this reluctance to engage in politics? And then we kind of swung to the other end of the spectrum and what does it look like when Christians are overly engaged and politics becomes kind of an idolatry? And we talked around that a little bit. That was very helpful and I thought Richard had some great things to say about that as well.
Luke Allen:Yeah, I totally agree. Today's discussion just again, as always, reminded me of the importance of Christians understanding that to be a Christian is to live out a holistic worldview, a full way of seeing the world and of life, and if we don't start there, it makes discussions like this so confusing, because I feel like they usually just devolve to point by point issues. You know, what about this one? What about this one? Whereas we're talking about a totality, here we're talking about not just truths when they come to certain candidates or certain policies, but the truth that applies to every area of life, and if we don't start there, then it gets really confusing for Christians as they try to unpack a topic like we did today. So just remembering that we're not talking about biblical truths here. We're talking about the truth and how that applies to every area of life, and as Christians, we should know that this truth is the best truth, the only one that actually works and the best way for all of us to live. Therefore, when we approach something like politics, if we live out that truth, it's the best way to love our neighbors and also to love God, and we can do both of those at the same time. So there's a real way to do this and a way that actually works.
Luke Allen:So today was just. This discussion was a reminder of the importance of that once again. So, anyways, without further ado, let's hop into that discussion with Richard Nelson. I'll hand it over to you, dan.
Scott Allen:Well, Richard Nelson, thank you so much for joining us today. We're really grateful to have you on the Ideas have Consequences podcast.
Richard Nelson:Scott, it's a pleasure to be on the program with you.
Scott Allen:And for those of you who tune in regularly, you know that Richard is not new to the podcast. He was on actually not too long ago, so thanks for coming back on. Again Richard, again Richard. And for those of you who missed that episode, let me just give a quick overview of who Richard is. He's the founder and the executive director of the Commonwealth Policy Center, which is dedicated to preserving the bedrock values of life, religious liberty, marriage and fiscal responsibility in the Commonwealth of Kentucky in the United States and fiscal responsibility in the Commonwealth of Kentucky in the United States, and he's also author of a relatively new book called Christianity and Politics a memoir of spiritual formation and field guide for Christians in the public arena. Richard has his master's degree in public policy from Regent University in Virginia. He's a husband, a father to four children, and he's a professor at the University of Virginia and an avid outdoorsman. Did I get all that right, richard?
Richard Nelson:That's correct.
Scott Allen:Richard is also. He's honoring the DNA by making the trip down to Panama to join us for the Global Forum. We're going to be together next week Looking forward to having you down in person, richard. I know for Luke and I having Richard on is so helpful because he's become our kind of go-to person to just talk broadly and think deeply about just Christian engagement in the political arena, which is really such a still a hot-button issue.
Scott Allen:And it's so important for Christians to think biblically and rightly about this, and so we're so grateful for your help, richard.
Richard Nelson:Yeah, you're welcome. It's a privilege for me to be on the program with you, scott, and I so appreciate what Disciple Nations Alliance does to help the body of Christ to think biblically about who we are as people, what is the role of the Christian in the world, just to help believers develop that biblical worldview. And what you are doing is so needed. And I need to say too and I can't remember if I said it at the last program, but your work has greatly influenced me over the years. I met Darrell Miller at an event probably it was over 20 years ago got to hear him speak and have read his books since then, but very, very formative for me. So you can say I think it's accurate to say that the work of Commonwealth Policy Center has been influenced by Darrow and the work of Disciple Nations Alliance. So thank you for that.
Scott Allen:Well, that's yeah, praise God. We appreciate that hearing that. So God is so good, isn't he so? Well, listen, let's get into it. You know, I think I'd like to start, and, luke, and I would like to start with you, richard, just on the reluctance that a lot of pastors in the United States in particular and around the world have when it comes to quote-unquote political engagement, speaking from the pulpit on issues that are quote-unquote political, which you know I think there's a lot of confusion about that. You know kind of anything beyond. You know the actual text of the Bible or, uh, the gospel message. You know it's kind of thoughts on this too. But back to in the United States anyways, back to the 1960s, the Johnson administration I mean, that's way back when I was just born, so that was a long time ago and something called the Johnson Amendment. I wonder if you could just explain to our listeners a little bit about that, what that is and how that was just so formative in shaping the way Christians and church leaders think about these issues of politics.
Richard Nelson:Yeah. So of course, the Johnson Amendment came from then Texas US Senator Lyndon Baines Johnson, who was aggravated by Christians who were engaged politically. It was actually Catholic, there's a Catholic group. They were engaged politically and LBJ introduced an amendment in Congress, known as the Johnson Amendment thereafter, that said that in order to receive 501c3 tax status, you could not engage politically, regardless of who you were, whether you were a church or just simply a nonprofit or educational institution. You couldn't endorse candidates, you couldn't speak for or against the candidate, you couldn't put signs out on your property for certain candidates, and that really set the tone for churches candidates, and that really set the tone for churches.
Richard Nelson:Since then, many churches, scott, would say, hey, we don't want to do anything that's perceived as political, we don't want to draw an investigation from the IRS. Therefore, we're just not going to speak about political issues. Now, just speaking about political issues is a different category than speaking about candidates, and at some point, though, they became conflated. Talking about issues issues that maybe one candidate favored or issues that a candidate was against, maybe that people could connect the dots and say, well, that church is against this candidate or that church is for this candidate. In either case, for whatever reason, many churches have been reluctant to speak to issues of the day. I would argue, by the way, that the Johnson Amendment, when it was put forth in 1954, that was overreach into the realm of the church. The church has always been able to teach the Word of God, not just teach what the text is saying, but teach application. As to what does this mean for us today? And this regards politics, the Bible has something to say about government and politics and a Christian's relationship to both of those arenas. And when that thing went through, I'm not aware, I don't know of any opposition. Maybe there were churches that rose up and said no, this is overreach, this is the state encroaching into the realm of the church, which the First Amendment to the Constitution prohibits. That the First Amendment's a protection against the state from it encroaching and delving into affairs of the church.
Richard Nelson:Scott, you know a subnote here when we talk about issues, the great moral issues of the day, and you mentioned a few of them that Commonwealth Policy Center is committed to restoring and working on behalf of, but the sanctity of human life, marriage between a man and a woman, the definition of gender as male and female. These were biblical issues and are biblical issues way before they ever became political issues. These are Genesis 1 issues where, if we understand that we're made in the image of God, male and female, that God brings both a man and woman together in a covenantal union that we call marriage, that we get the value of life. Human life is so precious. Why? Because we're made in God's image. These are biblical issues first and foremost, and at some point along the way maybe it was 1954, maybe it was sometime thereafter, but at some time we began to believe that, oh, these are political issues and therefore we shouldn't engage them. And that couldn't be further from the truth.
Scott Allen:Thank you for that, richard. That's really helpful. Yeah, luke, what are your thoughts or reactions as you listen to what Richard is saying there?
Luke Allen:Yeah, I mean it's interesting. I mean I'm producing this podcast. We're a 501c3 ministry. I've had people in the past kind of warn me like be careful when you're talking about. You know, like a topic like today Christianity, christians, engagement in politics that you don't lose your tax funding from the IRS Tax exempt status is what it is.
Luke Allen:Yeah, that's right, yeah, tax exempt status, and so I'm aware of this and I just wonder, back to the Johnson Amendment, if that partially came about through the churches, which I think we still have the same view today of a wrong understanding of what it means to have a separation of church and state. I would say the wrong understanding of what a separation of church and state looks like is a understanding that churches and Christians should have zero, they should not speak into politics. Essentially like a clear separation you stay in your lane, we'll stay in our lane, don't cross paths with us. I think that's the wrong understanding. When Jefferson first wrote down that phrase separation of church and state what did he mean by that? I think there's a lot of confusion there.
Richard Nelson:Yeah, that idea, luke, came from a letter that he sent to a group of Baptists in Connecticut, the Danbury Baptist Association, and they were afraid of a federal government that would impose a national church. And the founding fathers and the people in that era were very, very mindful of what it was like to live under a regime where there was no religious freedom, where you have a state-sponsored national church. And that's one reason why so many people came to this country. They wanted religious freedom. They wanted to be able to worship freely, according to their conscience, as they read the Word and understood of how God wanted them to worship, the polity of church government, certain practices in the church. People came from all over the globe, primarily Europe, to come here to enjoy religious freedom. And the Danbury Baptists said, hey, we don't want a federal government that's going to impose a national church. And Jefferson said, look, no, there will not be a national church.
Richard Nelson:In fact, the First Amendment was created to make clear that you cannot have a national church, congress. It's a restriction on Congress and it is a prohibition of a national church. That's the way Jefferson understood it and that's the way the founding fathers understood it, but, on the other hand, it was not a restriction on churches. It was not. It says nothing about what churches can do. It says what Congress cannot do Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. It doesn't say churches should not speak to politics or churches and pastors can't endorse candidates. It says none of that. In this country, we've always had the freedom to step into the public arena. We've always had the freedom to speak on the issues of the day and to work for or against candidates and that includes churches as well and we've forgotten that.
Scott Allen:Well, and you know, I think it's not just we have the freedom to do that, but I would say we have, you know, the responsibility to do that, don't you think, richard? I mean, to me part of what it means to be a Christian, to be a follower of Jesus, is to be somebody who gives, is courageous and gives truthful testimony about things that are fundamental and foundational. Like God exists and he created the family, you know male and female, created marriage. I mean these are fundamental truths that aren't just true created marriage. I mean these are fundamental truths that aren't just true for Christians. I mean these are true for everybody, and part of our responsibility as the Church is to not just believe these personally, for ourselves, but to believe these are true for everybody and they're for the good of everybody. Because they're true, everybody and they're for the good of everybody because they're true they are the foundation of any kind of healthy, free and flourishing society. So I think, yeah, we have to get back to this understanding that part of what it means to be a church, to be a Christian, is to be somebody who has a mandate, if you will, a duty, to proclaim and to live out the truths of these things in our own lives but to proclaim them publicly, and certainly that includes churches, right, you know from pastors, from the pulpit, Although I kind of think, like you, there's been a reluctance to do that over the past.
Scott Allen:You know I don't know how many years now. You know many, many generations now, and I think part of it is like you say. There's the Johnson Amendment, but I'm sure it goes deeper than that. You know, like you're discussing Luke, it goes back to this kind of faulty understanding of the separation of church and state that was really driven by secularists, I think, who wanted the church to kind of, like you say, stay out of areas of public policy. You know, somebody's going to define these areas of public policy and politics, right, and they wanted to have that field open to them entirely, these being secularists without any church involvement at all.
Scott Allen:And the church, I think, sadly too often kind of went along with that and said, okay, if you give us space to just preach the gospel and help people to get saved, then we'll just ignore those other issues. You can have those issues if you will, right, and you know that was just such a harmful, you know, decision or choice that was made there. Of course, don't misunderstand me. You know we need to prioritize the preaching of the gospel and the importance of being saved through faith in Jesus Christ, but again, this is where the evangelical church has failed so often. That's only a beginning, you know of our mission. Our mission is to be salt and light, and so, anyways, thoughts or reactions to that Richard.
Richard Nelson:Yeah, so there's a lot of reasons why many segments of the church have withdrawn Eschatology. There's been an eschatological fatalism.
Scott Allen:Things are going to go from bad to worse, and so what's the point? Kind of idea, right?
Richard Nelson:That's right. That's right. Why rearrange decks on the the chairs on the deck of the Titanic?
Scott Allen:right it's sinking.
Richard Nelson:it doesn't matter what we do here. Let's just focus on saving souls and then getting them onto the life raft, if you will. So there's bad eschatology or fatalistic eschatology. I think you have a Gnosticism or a dualism. There's a high priority on the spiritual side of things. Let's just minister to the souls of people, get them saved, get them into the church and then, as far as when it comes to the material world and the institutions in this world, engaging is seen as less spiritual, less important.
Richard Nelson:I believe that Scripture teaches that when you come to faith in Christ, you are a new creation, you have a new identity and you have a new mission. God has called you. You mentioned the passage from Matthew 5, 13 through 16. We're called to be salt and we're like. Later, on the very last chapter in Matthew 28, we read that we are to disciple the nations, and this entails everything. Scott, what does it mean to live as a follower of Christ in your cultural context? What does it mean to take care of your family? What does it mean to pursue work and use the gifts that God's given you? What is your relationship to the governing authorities? And I would submit that, because Jesus has overcome the grave and because he is saving people. We live life differently, in a radical different way, but we also we model what it's like to live in various segments of culture.
Luke Allen:Hi, friends, I want to take a quick minute to tell you about our newest Bible study here at the Disciple Nations Alliance, titled 10 Words to Heal Our Broken World Bible Study by Scott Allen Guys. This is a 10-week Bible study that is a perfect resource for any of us who want to grow in the basics of a biblical worldview, and one of the most basic levels of forming a distinctly biblical worldview is by making sure that we deeply ground our understanding of the definitions of words in the Bible, especially each of these 10 culture-forming words. Open your Bibles to see the true meanings of words like
