Ideas Have Consequences
Everything that we see around us is the product of ideas, of ideologies, of worldviews. That's where everything starts. Worldviews are not all the same, and the differences matter a lot. How do you judge a tree? By its fruits. How do you judge a worldview? By its physical, tangible, observable fruit. The things it produces. Ideas that are noble and true produce beauty, abundance, and human flourishing. Poisonous ideas produce ugliness. They destroy and dehumanize. It really is that simple. Welcome to Ideas Have Consequences, the podcast of Disciple Nations Alliance, where we prepare followers of Christ to better understand the true ideas that lead to human flourishing while fighting against poisonous ideas that destroy nations. Join us, and prepare your minds for action!
Ideas Have Consequences
Is This the “Secret Sauce” to Poverty Alleviation? | Sandra Drury
Episode Summary: "This is the answer to poverty." These words came to Sandra Drury in the middle of the night—and they changed everything. As a leader within World Vision, Sandra has spent the last decade championing the Biblical Empowered Worldview, a transformative approach to poverty alleviation that's producing results traditional development models never could.
In this episode, Sandra joins the guys to share how this mindset-shifting strategy is breaking cycles of poverty—from small villages in Tanzania to global adoption across World Vision's 44,000 staff. The key? Aligning beliefs about identity, purpose, and agency with biblical truth.
Whether you're passionate about global development or need encouragement, this conversation offers practical insights and a hopeful vision of how every ordinary Christian can contribute to lasting transformation.
Who is Disciple Nations Alliance (DNA)? Since 1997, DNA’s mission has been to equip followers of Jesus around the globe with a biblical worldview, empowering them to build flourishing families, communities, and nations. 👉 https://disciplenations.org/
🎙️Featured Guest:
Sandra Drury is a member of World Vision's National Leadership Council. She has travelled extensively in Africa, teaching on what she refers to as “a biblically empowered worldview.” She also serves on the board of directors of Tyndale House Publishing Company. She has a bachelor’s degree in Accounting from the University of Kentucky and a master’s degree in Biblical Studies from Wheaton College. She is married, with four children and nine grandchildren.
📌 Recommended Links
👉 Make a lifesaving impact | World Vision | World Vision
👉 Recommended Episode: Healing the Poverty Mindset pt. 1 with Tim & Terry Andrews
👉 Book: Discipling Nations
👉 Course: Kingdomizer 101 Course from DNA: Truth and Transformation
👉 Video: Why Does Your Worldview Matter?
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One night God woke me up and he said this is the answer to poverty. In my being he was telling me this and it has been my passion ever since. For the last decade. There's not a person I talk to practically that does not hear something about the biblical empowered worldview. It's a reset back to God's original economic plan for humanity, and that means that he actually really wants his creation to flourish. He doesn't want us to wallow in poverty. He wants us to take his creativity and move the world forward Ephesians 3.20, that God can do more than we can think or imagine through the power and work in us. So he can do more, but he chooses to use us to do his work.
Luke Allen:Hi friends, welcome to Ideas have Consequences. The podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. Here on this show we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world, to all the nations, but our mission also includes to be the hands and feet of God, to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected this second part of her mission and today most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.
Scott Allen:Welcome again to another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. I'm Scott Allen, I'm the president of the DNA and I'm joined today by my coworkers and friends Dwight Vogt, daryl Miller, luke Allen, and today we have a really special guest that we've had the privilege of getting to know over the last year Sandra Drury. Sandra, thanks for being with us today.
Sandra Drury:You're welcome, thanks year, sandra Drury.
Scott Allen:Sandra, thanks for being with us today. You're welcome. Thanks, yeah, sandra is. She is currently a member of World Vision's National Leadership Council, which is a real prominent leadership group in the world's largest Christian relief and development organization and I think World Vision is probably just the largest of any kind relief and development organization, sandra so she plays a prominent leadership role there. She's also a board member with Tyndale House Publishing Company. She is a graduate of the University of Kentucky, undergraduate with a degree in accounting and then went on to study at Wheaton College and got her master's in biblical studies and then went on to study at Wheaton College and got her master's in biblical studies. She's married, has four children and nine grandchildren, travels around the world, has been to Africa several times and we've had the privilege, as I said, of getting to know each other and kind of filling in gaps on a really exciting story that we wanted to talk with you all today. And, sandra, again thanks for being with us and just giving us the privilege of getting to know you and telling this story.
Sandra Drury:Thank you, scott. Actually the privilege is mine. Thank you, Scott. Actually the privilege is mine. I have thoroughly enjoyed meeting each of you and getting to know you over the past year and learning more about the gaps that were in my story, so it's been fun to kind of make these connections.
Scott Allen:Well, I'd like to begin by telling the story, you know, from the standpoint of the DNA, and it really goes back to our time where Daryrow and Dwight and I worked at Food for the Hungry. So we're going back more than 20 years now and really, with Darrow's leadership, we began to take a different approach inside of Food for the Hungry to kind of Christian development work how do you raise impoverished communities out of poverty? And Darrow took the road less traveled and said you know the way that you do, this isn't the way that the quote unquote industry is approaching it which was largely based around programs you might think of child sponsorship or any number of programs that are good, but it was largely program-driven. Often it was money-driven, donor-driven, and Darrow said none of that's really going to make a difference if the root of the problem isn't money but it's beliefs, it's worldview beliefs. And so, darrow, I remember you talking about how, prior to the Reformation, when the Bible was opened in a biblical worldview, many of the nations in Europe, western Europe, were as poor as the nations of Africa or of Southeast Asia. But what made the difference, what changed those nations and led to their development and their economic prosperity, freedom and flourishing in many respects was. You know, it wasn't international aid or money transfers, it was a biblical worldview and the fact that people began to shift their worldview and live it out in a way that created things like a work ethic, a value for human life, especially the young and women, and many, many other things, the whole understanding of dominion, that we're to have dominion over creation and not be ruled by nature or by the demonic realm, many things like that.
Scott Allen:Anyways, we were doing that teaching for many years inside of Food for the Hungry, in a kind of a relatively small way, and that's where the DNA got its. For many years inside of Food for the Hungry, in a kind of a relatively small way, and that's where the DNA got its birth. The president of Food for the Hungry gave us the freedom going all the way back to 1997, to take our training that we were doing with Bob Moffitt and begin to move that around the world in a really new and exciting way, and we saw the Lord work in such a powerful way. The training really took off. There was such a demand for this message of a biblically empowered worldview that leads communities and churches out of poverty. There's so much more I could say.
Scott Allen:But one of the people that we met with in those early years was Dennis Tongoy in Kenya. We've had him on the podcast. Dennis is still a very close friend. There's a miraculous story of how we connected with Dennis. He organized vision conferences in Kenya and then later Dennis went on and trained the country director of World Vision and this is where I'm going to get you into the story, sandra the country director of World Vision in Tanzania. Tim Andrews was his name, or is his name, and his wife's name is Terry Really dear folks, and when they heard Dennis teach this message of biblically empowered worldview, it was revolutionary for him, for them, and they began to take that training that they received from Dennis and adapt it to their programs in World Vision in a significant way.
Scott Allen:I remember literally millions of Tanzanians that were being supported or helped by World Vision were able to go through the training, and I think that's where you came into the picture, because you actually went to Tanzania and this was your as part of your role on the leadership team at World Vision and you experienced some of this training. And I wonder if you could pick the story up from there, because I think that was that was, if I'm not mistaken. That was new for you at that time, is that right, sandra?
Sandra Drury:Is that right, sandra? Oh, very much so. So, yeah, that's exactly right. I step into the story right where you're talking about, and it's very fun for me to hear this back story because when I it was a decade ago, 2015, when I did a vision trip, me and my husband did a vision trip with World Vision and ended up in Tanzania, and Tim Andrews, the national director of Tanzania, world Vision at the time, was there with us, and so was a man named Daniel Mavingi. I'll talk a little bit more about him now. He was also part of the team that worked on expanding what you guys had started into World Vision. I think Tim Andrews had trained over a thousand people in this mindset change this curriculum.
Sandra Drury:So when I was there in 2015, we were just really being presented with what's happening, what World Vision is doing, but we were taken to two villages I'm sure if I mentioned them Macandube was one, babati was another in Tanzania and one of the villages had been trained in the biblical power worldview and the other one had not. So we got to see a good view of what the difference is between the villages. But I'll never forget this man had been trained and he was so proud of the fact that his house had a new tin roof and to him that was just like you know, this huge achievement. But he said to us. He said but I, because of this new roof, my family is in danger. And we were actually fearful for our lives because we're afraid that the other village people will kill us. And we were. We couldn't, we could not believe this. And as he spoke about this, he said because we have taken these principles and put them into practice and we've bettered ourselves, we're bringing ourselves out of poverty. They think that we're doing something such as practicing witchcraft and doing things against them so that we will be elevated.
Sandra Drury:So that's the mindset change you were talking about, scott, and it's so real. I've seen it over and over and over in my times in Africa. It's just this negative, this lack of enough material things to go around, and so people think that if this person has more, then I have less. So that mentality is the thing that's probably the biggest struggle. As a matter of fact, recently I was teaching this at Wheaton College and I said to the young people there who would go into ministry that their number one challenge in anything that they do is going to be addressing these mindsets of the people that they're working with, and I truly believe that it's really the thing that has to be overcome, and I think that the Biblical Empowered Worldview does that. And let me go on and tell you a little bit more about my journey through this.
Sandra Drury:So, after that visit in 2015, world Vision talked to me about. They said you know, sandra. You said talked to me about. They said you know Sandra. He said you really cross over both of in your areas of expertise my degree in accounting slash and I was working in finance and my master's in biblical studies.
Sandra Drury:The biblical empowered worldview for World Vision set in their economic empowerment sector, but it was biblically based.
Sandra Drury:So they really saw that as, hey, this really crosses over both of your areas of expertise, and so they invited me to help them take this from the two villages there to up to five countries.
Sandra Drury:And I have to tell you, it took me a year to make this decision, and the reason that it did is because at the time, I just didn't know enough about World Vision to understand if they really do, if it's an organization that is truly Christian-based, that really shares the gospel of life or just the social gospel, and so my journey took me to Seattle, washington, to talk to the Faith and Development Director and then journey back to Tanzania where I actually, for two solid days, spent in the field talking to Tim Andrews, talking to Daniel Mulvingi who pretty much kind of owns the Biblical Empowered Worldview and his responsibility for it in East Africa and just trying to just flesh out what is this, is this worth it?
Sandra Drury:But during that time, just trying to just flesh out what is this, is this worth it? But during that time, as I was processing this and really spending time trying to figure out what God is calling us to do, one night God woke me up and he said this is the answer to poverty. Now, I didn't hear it audibly, but in my being he was telling me this, and it has been my passion ever since. For the last decade, there's not a person I talk to practically that does not hear something about the biblical empowered worldview, and my family can attest to that.
Scott Allen:I do think there's something really special, sandra, about people like us, all of us here, who approach the subject of biblical worldview, which there's so many people now using that phrase and it's overused, frankly but the people that have come on to this subject from the standpoint of poverty and development. I've noticed that people think about it in a really different way, a much more practical way, because, you see it, you see that you, you know, we're not talking about ivory towers and academia and theology and apologetics. We're talking about people that, like you said, have a zero-sum mindset or jealousy, or they fear the demonic realm and all of these things that are just keeping them in corruption, bondage, whatever it is, and, um, it's, it becomes very real and very practical, like you're saying. So, yeah, I want to come back and just talk more. I'd like to hear more of your heart on that. What you saw, how you sensed that it was. You know that, like God was speaking to you, this is the answer to poverty.
Scott Allen:I kind of want to continue with the story, though, because I think this is, to me, part of it gets really exciting here, because you know we love the group that we worked with Food for the Hungry for many years. But it was always a challenge to try to have the organization, especially the leadership, embrace this as a strategy, a kind of a core strategy. I think there was just some challenges in the way that people have viewed it. They said things like you're doing discipleship training, pastoral training, you know these kinds of trainings, but we're not a pastoral training organization or a discipleship organization. We do projects to help the poor. Right, it's a different kind of thing. We always said well, you know, what we're trying to do, at the end of the day, regardless of how we're doing it, is to see these poor communities rise out of poverty. We just think this is a much better way anyway.
Dwight Vogt:So we struggled. I think there was also just some pushback on the idea that worldview could be harmful or positive.
Scott Allen:Yes, explained Dwight.
Dwight Vogt:Well, blaming the victim, you can't criticize worldview, you can't criticize culture. True, true so true.
Scott Allen:If you talk about beliefs keeping people in condition of poverty, you're blaming the victim. Yeah, that comes from this very prevalent mindset today that poverty is always caused by external factors, nothing internally. People are victims of colonialism or whatever it is, and that's why they're poor. And we were also challenged. I mean, yes, right, people are victims. You know there's truth to that, but you can't let that blind you to the fact that people have worldviews and a lot of their belief systems. If they're rooted in animism or anything other than the worship of the living God are going to create problems.
Luke Allen:Hi friends, I wanted to take a quick minute to tell you about the Kingdomizer training program, which is the DNA's most popular biblical worldview training course. It's available in seven languages and it's completely for free, and it's not one of those courses that's going to take you months to complete. In fact, most people finish the entire Kingdomizer 101 course in about seven hours total. These courses were created to help Christians live out their mandate to make disciples of all nations, starting with themselves and working out from there. I would recommend this course to any Christian who wants to stop living in a sacred secular divide that limits their faith to only some areas of life and start living quorum deo, which means before the face of God, in all areas of your life.
Luke Allen:This course is great for individual study or it can be used by a small group or in a church class. We've had many churches use this course as a discipleship resource over the years and, by the way, as a quick heads up, we actually just began our next rendition of this course. So stay tuned as that will be coming out in the next year-ish To sign up today for the Kingdomizer training program. Head over to quorumdeocom and begin to have an impact for Christ on your culture that, if it's anything like mine, is in desperate need for truth and direction right now Again. To sign up, head over to quorumdeocom or tap the link in the show notes.
Scott Allen:Dear. I'd like to bring you in. I know you've got some things you want to say.
Darrow Miller:I remember when we were with you, sandra, back in January, you and Sherry said something that was very well said and I thought, oh, wow, they really got this. And you said that the DNA gave you the language to think new thoughts, the language to see the world differently, differently and that was I don't know if it was you or Sherry, but just that phrase. You gave us the language. And I know what I do when I'm teaching. I'm trying to bring about a paradigm shift in people's minds. I'm not simply talking about worldview, I'm trying to bring about that paradigm shift. But when you do that, there's new language and that language allows you to see things in a way you never saw before. Where, if you just keep your old language and your old paradigm worldview, what does that have to do with poverty? Not much view. What does that have to do with poverty? Not much.
Sandra Drury:So you guys, were really helpful for me that day in our discussions. Well, it's interesting actually what, scott, what you and Daryl both said, is because one of the things that I was able to see as I went through this biblical-empowered worldview and looked at how it takes you back to understand your identity as being created in the image of God, and that being the first and, to me, the most important way that this goes forward. It really, but everything else about it was nothing new, nothing. Everything was of ancient times and I basically came to call this.
Sandra Drury:It's a reset back to God's original economic plan for humanity, and that means that he actually really wants his creation to flourish. He doesn't want us to wallow in poverty. He wants us to take his creativity and move the world forward, and I think historically we have done just exactly that. You look at today versus you know the beginning of time and you have you know. You just think about what has been created and it's all because we are created in his image that we're capable of doing that. Now I will say that the biblical empowered worldview in a sense is a world vision, construct that term, and I don't know if you all use that?
Scott Allen:No, that's right. Did you all use that term? I never heard that until I met Tim and Terry, and that was even later. They used the phrase empowered biblically empowered worldview which. I liked. I thought, yeah, I like kind of the way that that sounds. Go ahead, Sandra. Yeah.
Sandra Drury:Yes, well, but that, by inserting that word into biblical worldview, kind of sets it up to be more poverty related, more development related, I think, because what people are looking for is to take their knowledge of scripture and their knowledge of who God is and what God's desire is for them and empower them to be able to live a life of flourishing. So I've actually, through my journey, through this, god has taught me a lot, and one of the things about that is that really we need a biblical worldview. We all need a biblical worldview. It's not something that you really have to have that in order to really live a Christian life honestly. And by inserting the word empowered in there, it kind of defines this as in this realm of the development space.
Sandra Drury:That's my thought on this, and so even as I've taught the biblical empowered worldview, I've actually struggled and there's been tension with me. As far as you know, I'm teaching this, I'm teaching these concepts, but in reality let's strip that down to really we really need to get back to scripture, to understand who God is, to know him and what his plan is for the world, and when we are aligned with that, we do live a life of flourishing. So it's been a journey for me to try to go through this, and I think, ultimately, the biblical worldview is what needs to be the focus.
Scott Allen:Absolutely.
Darrow Miller:When you were speaking earlier, scott, you started with biblical worldview and in the research I've been doing in my own study the last year for this book, I wanted to say, yes, biblical worldview, but the real key is the Bible. It was the Bible that allowed nations to be free. Prior to the printing press and the translation of the Bible into the vernacular, there were Bibles and there were religious people, priests, who had access to the Bible in Latin, but they had the key to things. And when the printing press came and people started translating the Bible out of the Greek and Hebrew into the vernacular of the people that they had the Bible and through the Bible they had access to a radically different worldview than they had from their own culture. And when you were saying a few minutes ago, sandra, about the problem you saw in Tanzania, the word that is associated with that in Africa is limited good and that's a phrase that describes the mindset of the African animistic mind. There's limited good and if there's limited good and my neighbor has more, oh well, he's cheating on me.
Scott Allen:Or he's put a spell or a hex on me.
Darrow Miller:Somehow there's a spiritual realm.
Darrow Miller:But it's that limited good concept that is the barrier. And no, the Bible doesn't speak of limited good. The Bible speaks of a creator God who made us in his image to be creative. The universe is opened and there's unlimited good, totally different cultural set and mindset than the animistic limited good mindset than the animistic limited good. So you know, it's the Bible that presents to the world the biblical worldview. That is the key to all of this. And I think very often as a church we have forgotten that we have reduced the Bible to a devotional book.
Scott Allen:Or a message of personal spiritual salvation.
Sandra Drury:Yeah, Right, yes, yes, yes. Well, you all are touching on something that's very near and dear to my heart and what God is really walking me through, journeying me through just lately. But let me just speak to Darrell, what you were just saying and I was teaching just a few months ago at Wheaton College the Biblical Empowered Worldview. I came to a point and I just stopped and said but how do you get a biblical worldview Through the Bible? You have to read the Bible, which I think you know you cannot get one. I mean, you can get a portion of it by listening, you know, going to church and listening to the sermons, but you really have to dig into to really have a complete view of who God is.
Scott Allen:Let me. I want to come back to the story. I'm just going to put a little mark here and just say, hey, I do want to come back to the story because there's a really exciting upcoming chapter that we haven't talked about yet. But I just want to keep talking about worldview. Here you have to. Darrell, you said it's not biblical worldview, it's the Bible. And Sandra, you said how do you get a biblical worldview? You read the Bible, but don't you think this is something I've noticed you have to read the Bible kind of differently. In other words, we're trained in a worldview and we bring that worldview. We're not trained in a worldview. We've adopted or we've absorbed a worldview from our culture from the church.
Scott Allen:Yeah, we're enculturated and we bring that to our study of the Bible. So, for example, we read it devotionally, we think it has to do with spiritual things. And I've noticed this. I was just in Bolivia last week asking a group of teachers down there Christian teachers how do you relate the Bible—excuse me, how do you relate the Bible? Excuse me, how do you relate a subject like mathematics or language and arts to God? And you could just see the blank looks on their faces like they don't relate. Those are just you know.
Darrow Miller:It's a different concept.
Scott Allen:Yeah, they don't relate. And I said, and I did say, you know you're going to have to learn to read the Bible, you know. This is where I think the concept of worldview is actually kind of helpful, because you're going to have to step back and see the Bible as a story, as a worldview, as a worldview story that makes sense of all of those things and the changes the way you read the Bible, any thoughts that you have on that, because I've noticed that just reading the Bible may not give you a biblical worldview. I know that sounds kind of heretical, but reading the Bible may not give you a biblical worldview.
Sandra Drury:I know that sounds kind of heretical, but I think it's how I mean for me. I'll just talk about me because I think, as I'm journeying through and I have to be careful about this, because I have such a deep love and appreciation for Scripture and to me it just fills me up. I mean, when I read about Israel wandering and then seeking after other idols, it actually grieves me to think that these people would walk away from God. So I read scripture and I really I read it in such a way that I read it to know God. I read it because I know it's his revelation to us of who he is and what his mission is for us, for all of us, for his entire creation. So, and everything in me wants to share that with other people, wants to share that with other people to be able to have that appreciation of Scripture and who this is and why we're here and the why of everything. So maybe sometimes people aren't there yet. So it's a struggle for me. It's a huge tension.
Luke Allen:Yeah, yeah Well, yeah, it's not that the Bible has anything wrong with it. Just to be clear, it's the preconceived notions that we bring to our hermeneutics that mess with the way we're reading the Bible. Like if you're a materialist, have that worldview and you're growing up in that, then you're going to read some of the passages and say proverbs about wealth and poverty or prosperity, in a certain light, because of the materialistic mindset that you're bringing to the word. The bible by itself, if we could somehow approach it with a blank slate, as it were, would be would produce in us a perfect biblical worldview.
Scott Allen:You could say it's just the example I often think of is, you know, when I ask people what is the great commission? Right, because that's the central passage on the mission of the church, and you and a lot of evangelicals will say it's to go into all the world, save souls and plant churches. And I'll say that's not what it says. What does it say? And so they're bringing, as Luke said, they're bringing a mindset to it, because they've been shaped in what I call a sacred-secular mindset. And I said it says disciple nations right, that's bigger. That's a bigger thing than just saving souls and planting churches. But people go. Well, what I don't understand, that you know. So there it is, there's the Bible. They're reading the words on the page, but they've got this preconception in their mind that that acts like filters or barriers to how they read it.
Scott Allen:You know, it's just something I've observed that I think this is where I like the concept of worldview, that, hey, we all kind of come to the Bible and everything else with a worldview and, frankly, just part of sanctification, just growing in our faith, is shifting worldviews, right. So our worldview, whatever we have, you know, it's often, you know, grounded in the culture that we come from, and evangelical, secular, whatever animistic. That needs to shift, you know, and the concept of worldview helps a little bit, I think. Sometimes, just what does this idea of worldview? I want to go back to the story, if I could, though, because so you. You were on the. What is the name of the group that you're a part of? I'm sorry, with World Vision, the leader, the National Leadership Council, national.
Scott Allen:Leadership Council correct. And so you're on that group. You went, you were to Tanzania. You met with Tim and Terry. You were exposed to their kind of working, a new approach to community development rooted in biblical worldview.
Scott Allen:And then I had heard about that. You know, many years ago, dwight and I, we had heard, and Daryl and we were so excited. Look at this, wow, world Vision in Tanzania is really taking the training and adapting it. How exciting is that? And then we didn't hear much more about it for many years, you know. I mean we did stay in touch a little bit with Tim and Terry, but not a lot.
Scott Allen:And the next thing, I know somebody's this is a couple years ago somebody's coming to me and sharing with me World Vision's global kind of strategic priorities for whenever it was 2024, 2023, and there was four or five of them, and one of them was this biblically empowered worldview for the whole of World Vision. And I thought, oh my gosh, look at that. They've really elevated this far beyond Tanzania. Now they've made it a priority, a focus for their ministry all over the world. It's something that really struck I know, me and Dwight and Daryl because that's really what we wanted to see happen in Food for the Hungry, which never really did, frankly, and here it really was happening in World Vision. And then that's where you come back in, sandra, because you know there's a story about how it went from a single project in a country like Tanzania to this really significant focus of the entire organization. And again, for people that don't know World Vision, it's a massive organization. I mean, I don't know how big is it, sandra, in terms of people and money organization.
Sandra Drury:I mean, I don't know how big is it, Sandra, in terms of people and money.
Scott Allen:Oh, world Vision 44,000 employees, over 10 billion. I believe in their budget. 10 billion, just a small little organization. Yeah, 10 billion, right okay.
Sandra Drury:Right, yeah. Yeah, it is the largest Christian organization. You're right about that, yeah.
Scott Allen:And so I have an appreciation for just how hard it is to see a change in an organization of that size. Anyways, and then it turns out that you, Sandra, and a few others not a lot were kind of instrumental in that, and so if you could tell me, tell us that story too, because I just thought that was really exciting. I just can't tell you how much that was a thrill to hear.
Sandra Drury:Yeah, Well, I have to say Scott, me and a few others, and God Amen. Because I actually look back at this journey over the last decade and I think Ephesians 3.20 is spot on on the verse that God can do more than we can think or imagine through the power and work in us. So he can do more, but he chooses to use us to do his work. And so the story continues that it's been miracle after miracle after miracle. And first of all, let me tell you I am the least likely person to even be involved in this and I regularly think I don't know what God's doing and I'm not even equipped to do this. But this door is thrown wide open and I have no choice but to step through because it's a miracle. How this came about? And let me give you one story to just show you the miracles that have happened. So, on one of my journeys back to Tanzania to find out more about the Biblical Empowered Worldview and I was an auditor, I was a degree in accounting, I was an auditor, so I tend to ask a lot of questions and for two solid days, tim Andrews and a group accompanied me for a three-hour van trip back to this area that had implemented the Biblical Empowered Worldview. And the whole time three hours, three hours, three hours. I took notes. I wanted to know everything about the Biblical Empowered Worldview, how it started, who was involved, everything. And so while I was on one of these trips, I met this young man named George, and that was it Just met him. He was an intern at World Vision at the time, but I gave him my information and for one year he continued to contact me and say Sandra, would you please come back to my church and teach and teach the biblical empowered worldview? And I said no, I said I'm not a teacher, I'm not going to do that. Home Powered Worldview. And I said no, I said I'm not a teacher, I'm not going to do that. After a year of him persisting, I finally said to him George, please stop asking me this. I am not going to teach, I am not a teacher, I'm not coming to your country to teach. Plus, what church do you go to? I would have to have permission from your leadership to do this and I'm not a teacher. And so, right after that, he said well, let me send you a link to our church. And I said, ok, well, that's good. At least it's not a little hut that I was imagining. And I opened up the link and on there the very first picture was their chairman of the board, and I just spent a week in Kenya working with him and a team of people all over Africa on updating the Biblical Empowered Worldview to the third edition. So he knew me, joseph Mayala. He knew me.
Sandra Drury:And then the next thing out of George's mouth was just nearly through me. He said we have a brand new archbishop, but he's not here right now because he's getting his master's at Wheaton College. They live in Wheaton, one mile from the college, and so I made a beeline over to the college. I said I have to get in touch with this student. And so they put me in touch. We met over coffee and I was getting ready to tell him this story and he said Sandra. He said I've already heard, I want you to come and teach in Tanzania. So there you have it, I have it straight from the archbishop. And I says well, how many people do you cover in Tanzania? He said over six million. And so I said okay.
Sandra Drury:I think, yes, yes, I said I think I'm going to go teach this in Tanzania.
Darrow Miller:So I did.
Sandra Drury:And so that's a miracle to me. It's like why me, why me, lord? But on the plane trip back from there, I remember thinking to myself and actually spending 24 hours on the airplane thinking I cannot be the only one that sees the value in this. Everybody needs to know about this. This is too powerful not for everybody to know. And so when I got back, I petitioned several of the NLC members, the National Leadership Council members that I knew was passionate about economic empowerment, and God gave me two other people.
Sandra Drury:So we formed what we called EWAG, and actually even President Sandoval when he would refer to us, he would call us EWAG Empowered Worldview Advocacy Group and we met for probably three years pretty regularly. It was me, sherry Woodard and one gentleman from London who we had all the same idea. We created a strategic plan, and on that plan was that World Vision would make the Biblical Empowered Worldview a core project model, that they would train all of their staff, all of their global staff, that they would bring it to the United States, because we really felt that the same issues we were seeing overseas were in the US and that it would go far beyond World Vision. That World Vision, we felt, was the steward of this, but this was so impactful that it needed to go beyond the walls of World Vision. And do you know that this last year all four of those were hit, every one of them? They made a determination to train all 44,000 staff. They made it a core project model. It goes first and foremost, before anything that they do when they go into a new location. They have piloted it in the US and I'm actually going to Kenya in September to work with an organization.
Sandra Drury:That another miracle story, another absolute miracle story that I helped train a little. I at least gave them an introduction to it. They were trained. Their strategic plan says that they're going to train over 3,000 pastors in the next five years. So outside of the realm of World Vision, pastors in the next five years. So outside of the realm of World Vision. So to me, that is a God-sized achievement that we are just players. He has chosen us to work. And again, I still don't know why, why me, lord, I don't know, but you know it's been an amazing journey and to me it's just my faith has been just amplified because of seeing God work in amazing ways that are almost impossible things to have happen.
Scott Allen:Wow, I can't tell you how exciting it was when I first heard you tell that story and just fill in these blanks in my mind and just you know, to see what God was doing. You know through you, that EWAG group. I love that. I want to join the EWAG group. It's called.
Sandra Drury:BWAG, BWAG Biblically Empowered.
Scott Allen:Worldview Advocacy Group. Yes indeed.
Sandra Drury:Yes exactly.
Scott Allen:And now you know all of the staff of World Vision are being trained in this and going to use this to train others way beyond. And just what your comment about how you know you had those goals? You had some five goals that are four or five goals that are all been reached. One of them was this needs to go beyond world vision and that's something that way back, when we started this in food for the hungry, we said exactly the same thing. Um, randy Hogue, the president at the time, said I want to create something, a program here, that goes beyond Food for the Hungry. And just to see you pick up that same thread and now to see how far beyond it's gone is just such an amazing God thing.
Sandra Drury:Can I add one thing to this story? Oh sorry, that's a very, very important piece. So the advocacy group because we were really pushing for these strategic goals, world Vision, decided to have an outside organization called Tango, technical assistance for NGOs, do an analysis, kind of an M&E kind of thing, where they evaluated the Biblical Empowered World News sits under an economic plan called THRIVE, t-h-r-i-v-e. Thrive I'll get it in just a second Transforming households in vulnerable environments.
Scott Allen:Okay, Yep Transforming household resilience.
Sandra Drury:Okay, there you go.
Scott Allen:Got to get all your letters.
Sandra Drury:Yes, exactly, and they hired Tango to do a three-year study in Tanzania, and Tango is a secular organization, it's highly reputable. And they did this. They issued a 180-something page report at the end of it, and at the end of it they said that the unique thing to World Vision and this economic program is the biblical empowered worldview. And when the president of World Vision read through that I hear he read through it more than once I think that was a key turning point in paving the way.
Dwight Vogt:And Sandra. The report also showed amazing impact. Yes, absolutely, which was like why this impact? Why in Tanzania? Why now? And Tango said we don't know why except. The one difference was this biblical empowerment.
Scott Allen:That was your thought way back, at the very beginning of all this that we need a whole new way of approaching poverty and development. That's right, you know we need a whole new way of approaching poverty and development.
Darrow Miller:That's right, Sandra. May I ask you something in light of what you've just said and your experience when we met in January and that discussion? I've been writing a book from First Chronicles 1232 about the sons of Issachar knowing the times and seasons so they can know what to do. That's the working title, but part of what came to me from our meeting was a discussion between you and Sherry. Sherry wants to see it out through World Vision and you're saying no, this has to go out through the church, has to go out through the church, and that's what DNA has been about all these years. You know we're a tiny little organization but it's bringing biblical worldview to the church and so that's a very big part of the book. I'm finishing and I'm getting that'm putting together a beta reading group and I'm wondering if you would be willing to be part of that beta reading group, from your background and excitement, to give me your feedback on the book.
Sandra Drury:Oh yeah, I'd love to do that. It's interesting. I was just on another reading group, so yeah, so I've never done it before, and I was asked to pre-read another book. So yeah, I'd be happy to do that.
Darrow Miller:Thank you, I'll be talking to you then.
Scott Allen:Okay, we'll do a little business here while we're on the podcast. Yeah.
Sandra Drury:I do hope we do have an opportunity to get into the church because I feel like God, that's like my next journey, that I feel like God's leading me in. So I know that I don't want to poke this in right now, but at some point, no, I think this would be a great direction to go in, sandra, if we couldn't.
Luke Allen:I would love to go there, but I'm just really curious. You mentioned there was an impact report written after all of these changes were made in Tanzania. I would love to know, and I think our audience would too what was the impact in Tanzania.
Scott Allen:Well, it was beyond.
Luke Allen:Tanzania. Yeah, just give us an idea of that.
Sandra Drury:Okay. So they like to measure in more financial metrics. And so incomes increased tenfold, tenfold, ten times what they were after Thrive I'm sorry, let me make that clear, when the Thrive program came in and they have the Biblical Empowered Worldview of thrive but it also helps. They do savings groups, they do lending to savings groups, they do restoration, environmental restoration, things like that. So when tango evaluated the thrive model with the biblical empowered worldview as its foundation, that was one of the things that was very prominent there.
Sandra Drury:And then, as they did their measurements, they did say that the biblical empowered worldview, they called it the secret sauce that people's mindsets were changed, which drove the ability for the people to pull themselves out of poverty. As a matter of fact, let me just say this it's kind of a little bit off topic and I'm sorry for that, but a friend of mine at World Vision, he presents on stage, usually at the conferences, and he stands up there and he says, okay, I have a question how do you get people out of poverty? And then he holds for a second and he and they said, well, maybe that's the wrong question. How do you help people get themselves out of poverty which, uh, to the point of the, the impact uh report. It was how do you help people change these mindsets so that they're the ones it's their dignity that's restored, it's they're breaking these chains of poverty, the bondage of poverty, and they're doing it with support, but they're doing it themselves because they're changing their mindset. That's such an important point, sandra.
Scott Allen:Yeah, you know. We continue to hear the same question all over the world. You know when we're doing, you know work in impoverished communities is. Why are we so poor? You know world. You know when we're doing. You know work in impoverished communities is why are we so poor? You know, and you know why are we so poor.
Scott Allen:And they're looking towards Europe and the United States and other countries that are not and they assume that maybe somehow they're worse than those other people. Like are we worse? Are we you know? And when I tell them, no, you know, it has nothing to do with that. You know, these countries in Europe and in the United States have had the blessing of having the Bible open to them and putting it into practice and changing their worldviews in a way that hasn't yet happened here. But it can, you know, and you, with the Bible and God's help, can have that same experience right here. It's something that's such an empowering thought to them. You know so very much along the lines of what you're talking about. It's not something we do to them. They can, with God's help and the Word of God, they can see the same outcome in their own communities for sure.
Luke Allen:Yeah, powerful. I'm still shocked. Tenfold, that's crazy. What was the time frame for that?
Sandra Drury:Three years.
Luke Allen:In three years. That's crazy Wow.
Sandra Drury:Well and it's something— I've done other studies too, with very favorable outcomes.
Scott Allen:It's something that you know. You talked about how there was a biblical worldview training at the foundation of it, but then there was an application in terms of savings groups or other things, and I think that's you know. There was a biblical worldview training at the foundation of it, but then there was an application in terms of savings groups or other things, and I think that's you know. As simple as this sounds, that's what was missing. You know Christian relief and development organizations. They would do things like savings groups. They thought that was the answer. Or they would do economic empowerment trainings or they would do yeah, whatever savings groups, different kinds of programs, but without going.
Scott Allen:And when they added that worldview training to whatever that program was, they saw it, you know, kind of really take off. We, you know, we have a dear friend, ina Richards, who is doing work.
Scott Allen:You know, ina, yeah, she's doing work in South Africa and all around Africa with unemployable youth, you know essentially Work for a living, work for a living, yeah, and she was doing for many years just basic how do you get a job, how do you hold a job, you know, for a living, yeah, and she was doing for many years just basic how do you get a job, how do you hold a job, what does it mean to kind of have a good work ethic? She was doing all that training but then when she added that level of deeper level of biblical worldview, everything just changed, it just took off. You know, and that's what I'm hearing you say as well.
Sandra Drury:So yeah, this actually could be a good opportunity or a good segue into talking about the church. Yes, because I know in your some of your prompt questions, luke, you're asking questions about the church and what I, what I, if, that's, if this is a good time to do that, ok.
Sandra Drury:So what you were saying about you know the, what she witnesses. When you add that component of the biblical worldview, it really changes everything. It feels to me like, um, when I graduated in 2016 with my master's in biblical studies, when I feel like the most valuable thing that I walked out of there with was I had. I had to change my mind, my mindset. I had a wrong biblical worldview. I had to change my mindset. I had a wrong biblical worldview and this has shown me how my view of Scripture and the gospel is incomplete, because I never really heard the whole story.
Sandra Drury:I've never, ever seen the whole metanarrative of Scripture and how it's all connected, from Genesis to Revelation, and how really it's. It's all connected, even the gospel message in the Old Testament, and so and to me, what that does for me is it shows me the why. It's like okay, accept Jesus as your savior so that when you die, you can go to heaven. But why? You know why? Why is that? So you have to go back and learn that in the in, and even all the New Testament writers, they got their information from the Old Testament, but we seem to try to push that aside because, as someone recently said to me but that's a wrathful God, he's full of judgment. And I say but have you read this? Have you read his love and his kindness and his patience with his people? And just the? I see so many threads of scripture coming all the way through. So that's one thing I feel like the church has could do better is really show people where they fit in the story, like, historically we're in the time of the church, we're between the ascension and the new creation, but to be able to help people understand this is where we are and this is our mission for now. But it's also informed by everything that all of scripture is all about, and so there's a lot of themes that I'm looking at as I'm reading through, such as justice and righteousness. If you really pay attention in the Old Testament whether you're in the book of Kings or Isaiah or any of the prophets or Psalms or Proverbs, when you see the word justice, it's usually always followed with righteousness. And one theologian that's my favorite, christopher Wright. He talked about how God is a just God to set things right, and so I feel like these are things that if you really process scripture as a whole and try to understand the whole metanarrative. It helps you understand the why, and I feel also that that's one of the reasons why people tend to walk away from their faith. And it's because, for me, I'm a very logical thinker. It's got to make sense to me and when I look at all of scripture, it makes perfect sense. It just aligns completely and I feel like this is a very logical explanation of everything.
Sandra Drury:The other thing too is, as I was reading through Scripture actually I wrote it down. It was the passage of the story of Jacob wrestling with God, and you all probably know now Jordan Peterson has a new book. His newest book is we who Wrestle With God, and I was processing that quite a bit and I noticed, as I was reading through the story of Jacob, that Jacob always referred to God as the God of his fathers, abraham and Isaac, but he never, up until the night that he wrestled with God and got a new name, did he ever refer to God as his God? And then, almost immediately, the shift is he now is it's his my God. He says my God, the God of Israel, and Israel is his new name.
Sandra Drury:But I say this because I don't know that we allow the generations to wrestle with God to wrestle through their faith, and when they just claim the God of their fathers, it's not something that they can hold on to, but it's that moment of real deep wrestling that is what transforms them into claiming this is my God. And I don't know about you guys, but I certainly went through that when I was able to really process this myself. So I think these are just things that parents don't understand and that the church does not necessarily propagate for helping parents to teach their children to really ask these hard questions. You know, when they have questions, you know flesh it out, dig it out and really try to understand. So you know, I know that that may veer off a little bit, but it's just. I know that one of the things that you were curious about is, you know, the church and the Barna study about people leaving faith and things like that.
Luke Allen:Yeah, that makes total sense. And I had the exact same thing happen in my life, in high school, and it was, you know, in a way like Jacob. This is the faith of my father and mother and this is the house I was raised in. Went to church every week, but it wasn't my faith until about age 16. And there's a wrestling process in there with am I going to accept this? Does this make sense to me? And it totally makes sense.
Luke Allen:The deconstruction movement right now in the US is if churches aren't actually discipling their youth in a biblical worldview, telling them the why behind this, the part that makes sense and instead just training them in the practices you go on the short-term missions trips, you go to VBS in the summer, you to go to summer camp, these types of things but you're not telling them why this all matters and where this came from and their place in the story, then they're not going to be rooted enough to make it through a deconstructionist friend coming along and challenging their faith. And if we can't understand the biblical worldview, it's really hard to make our faith our own in a way. I know that's pretty broad, but I can just totally relate to what you're saying, that was well said, luke Well said.
Sandra Drury:Luke, yeah, yeah.
Scott Allen:I know, I totally agree with you, sandra. I had a similar experience myself. You know, growing up in the church, I mean, I became a Christian when I was in high school through Young Life and then, you know, went through a process of discipleship, you know, but it was largely around my salvation. You know was went through a process of discipleship, you know, but it was largely around my salvation. You know, we studied books of the New Testament. You know the epistles and you know there was an emphasis on application in terms of service and in terms of gospel sharing and things like that. And then you know, when you go into church you're hearing, you know, uh, messages, sermons on particular passages, uh, particular, um. You know books of the Bible but, like you said, what's missing in all of that was missing for me too was the understanding that that, uh, it's kind of like the forest and the trees. Right, you know we're, we're spending all of our time looking at trees, but nobody's yet stepped back and kind of said here's this larger forest, and this forest, in this case, is actually a story, a very powerful story, and that story equals worldview. By the way, this is.
Scott Allen:You mentioned Jordan Peterson. I appreciated him as a psychologist saying this. You know. He said everybody lives out of a story. That's partly the way God made us. You know, we need those big stories to make sense of our lives. Whether you're a Christian or not, you live out of some kind of a narrative. And he said the West was built on the narrative of Scripture, the big story, as you said, that begins in Genesis and ends in Revelation creation, fall, redemption, consummation, all redemption, consummation. He said if we're going to throw that story away as the West, the story that built the West, we better be sure what story we're going to adopt in its place, because we're going to live out of some story. There's no option there. You're going to live out of some story. And when he said that I just so appreciated that, I agreed.
Scott Allen:But again, I don't think a lot of Christians like you were even saying it's kind of surprising, sandra, because you got your master's degree from a very prominent university, wheaton, you know, in biblical studies, and you still didn't understand that big picture. And I've often thought, you know, maybe what we need to do is when we approach discipleship and catechism. You know, kind of, do it not? Here's the doctrines and you know this and that, although those are super important, but again you're focusing on trees there. Step back, tell the whole story then kind of focus in on the doctrines and the key pieces of it, but tell it within the context of the whole story, because I do think that's missing. Do you agree with me on that?
Sandra Drury:I agree 100%. As a matter of fact, exactly the way you just said it. Start with the whole story. Start there yeah, and then everything fits in. Everything fits in.
Scott Allen:You're not denying pastors from preaching from the New Testament, preaching about Paul, preaching any of that or any of these really precious and important doctrines, but you've got to tell them in the context of that story.
Sandra Drury:Right. Where does it go Right exactly? And I think that that would help so many people really understand the full story and I think that would help solidify their faith and it would be solid, it would be grounded in the whole of Scripture, absolutely.
Scott Allen:And especially when you compare the biblical story, which is the true story. We're not talking about a fiction story, we're talking about the true story. This is reality. And when you compare it to other stories, you know, then you begin to see. This gets us back to the word empowered. You begin to see the power of it. There's a power here when you realize that human beings are made in the image of God, with dignity, and no other worldview has that, no other story has that. It just doesn't. You go find it somewhere for me. I challenge you, you won't, you know. And when people see the goodness and the power of those truths it's you know it's hard to say, oh, I'm going to reject this and take on something else. You know, you want this because it's so good. Yeah, dwight, what are your?
Darrow Miller:thoughts.
Scott Allen:You've been kind of quiet processing as you normally do, and then Dwight usually comes up with this big final conclusion.
Dwight Vogt:I just thinking sandra, way back here you said you know you're talking about the biblical environment worldview and how it ties to human flourishing and how god's plan for the economic, so the world, ties to flourishing. The god intended flourishing. I think we're afraid of that truth that goes back to genesis one and two and and that God wants us to flourish. It's so essential to the God story that he starts not with the fall, because our reality starts with the fall. So when we start the story we tend to go back to Genesis 3. The world is hard, it's challenging, it's wicked, it's evil. We've got to get out of here, we've got to endure it. But he actually starts in Genesis 1, and it's a picture of amazing order and goodness and flourishing. And so that's really, really our story. And yet we don't know how to. We're a little afraid of that because it's so far from our reality.
Scott Allen:Well, I do think there's the prosperity gospel too. That complicates it, don't you, Dwight?
Dwight Vogt:Which is kind of a heresy of this flourishing idea. That's Satan's best plan. I'll just throw in the prosperity gospel and derail the whole idea.
Scott Allen:Yeah, I agree, because I've often had people when I use the word God wants us to flourish and to thrive, they say, oh, you're preaching a prosperity gospel, scott Exactly.
Dwight Vogt:You just got your legs cut out from under you, so there you go.
Sandra Drury:And the biblical empowered worldview is not the prosperity gospel in any way, shape or form. It truly is about you using your gifts and talents. I mean, you look at how detailed the building of the tabernacle and the temple was, and how he put skilled craftsmen on there. He gave them their abilities to do this, just like he does us. It's really just like the body of Christ is needed in every aspect of our culture.
Luke Allen:Yeah, amen, yeah. A little while ago, Sandra, you were saying that World Vision's shifting its focus to the West, with bringing the biblical empowered worldview to Western nations and the need for that. Similarly to the impact that you saw throughout Africa, has there been any impact that you've heard of noticed so far in Western nations as this training comes here?
Sandra Drury:Let me clarify it is not shifting its focus. It is still very much a global organization and it's really still in process of just actually testing it, piloting it here to see how it will take on. And I am wholeheartedly for that. And, scott, I will what you said to me, that one day Scott and I were talking very recently in Scottsdale and he made the comment that DNA is shifting a little bit towards the US as a ministry target. And I asked why would you do that? And he said because they realized that everything here is exported there.
Sandra Drury:And I could not agree more. And he is so right. And when we accept something here and we try to take it there, it validates that hey, this is caught on here and it's more likely to be something that they'll pay attention to. So I wholeheartedly agree that we do export, we export. I just had to laugh. I was thinking ideas do have consequences and in this case in particular, you know the ideas that we propagate here are going to make their way over there. But as far as it's just in the new stages, luke, I feel that it does have to go through the church and that's exactly the way World Vision will operate and try to hand it over to the church to be able to use it, make it a useful tool here in their ministry.
Scott Allen:That's exciting. Yeah, no, to your point there, sandra. We've always had a kind of an operating principle that we go wherever God's opening the door. You know, and you know we're not trying to go anywhere. We're not trying to kind of make people that have no interest in what we're teaching have an interest in it. We're not doing a marketing-heavy thing at all. We're just where there's a hunger for this teaching, we're going to go there. But I've been challenged by that. Because this teaching, we're going to go there.
Scott Allen:But I've been challenged by that because, as Darrow says, if the church doesn't disciple the nation, the nation disciples the church. And that's largely been what's happened over the last hundred years in the United States and in the Western nations. The church has not discipled the nation. The nation has become quite secular and now moving into even pagan, especially when it comes to practices of family and sexuality, and the church is influenced much more by the culture than it is the other way around. And it's not just the church in the United States that's being influenced by that secular, pagan worldview. Now it's being.
Scott Allen:There's that aggressive element in the United States that's pushing hard kind of missionary zeal to push this on nations around the world, and I continue to hear that. You know, even again last week, when I was in Bolivia and people are challenging, you know me to go back and you know you need to disciple your own nation. It's just. You know, without God, though, it's just what can we do? But this is again this gets back to your story, sandra just how powerful it was that you saw God at work.
Scott Allen:You mentioned miracle after miracle about how God took these messages. It was him, it was his timing, he used you and he wanted to have this really flow through an entire huge organization like World Vision, and who knows where it goes beyond that right. So if he can do that, he can do whatever he wants to do, and we're going to trust him for this time, in the United States, for the West. So, anyways, any final thoughts, sandra, as we wrap up, it's been just so great to have you. I really appreciate you sharing the story and just your faithfulness to be obedient to God and to do crazy things like go to Africa and teach, anyways.
Sandra Drury:You know, I think I'm just very encouraged with the. Well, I guess what Oz Guinness calls this civilization moment, and even Justin Brierley I'm not sure if you're familiar- with that.
Darrow Miller:Yes, I listen to his podcast occasionally yeah, yeah, yeah, no-transcript.
Scott Allen:Yeah, when you think about things like the transgender surgeries and yeah.
Scott Allen:I think that's a lot of it. You know, they're just like how is that?
Scott Allen:happening. You know exactly.
Sandra Drury:Yeah, so I think that I feel like god is moving. I, I can sense it significantly and uh, and, and we just need to, we just need to keep in step with him. Amen, listen to his, that, that voice behind us, to this is the path, walk in it well, I believe god's brought us back.
Scott Allen:You know, our paths have kind of kind of, we've been on these different journeys but they've touched at different points. You know, and just you know. And now, for whatever reason, we're kind of. We've been on these different journeys but they've touched at different points. You know, and just you know. And now, for whatever reason, we're kind of back again and I do think there's something God's going to do here, you know, even in our relationship with you, sandra. So I look forward to seeing what that is. You know, we'll just keep our eyes fixed on him. But again, thank you for your ministry at World Vision and beyond, your faithfulness and just how exciting to hear God's used you in such a significant way. So we're really grateful, grateful for your time today.
Sandra Drury:Thank you, Thank you all for your ministry. It's done an incredible work. Well, we're we're Influenced a lot of people.
Scott Allen:We're blessed and, yeah, it's all God. Dwight Luke, thanks for your participation in the podcast today as well, and once again, I want to just thank all of you who listen. We're so grateful for your choosing to take some of your time, your busy schedule, to tune into this podcast. This is Scott Allen, the president of the DNA, and thanks again for listening to another episode of Ideas have Consequences.
Luke Allen:Thank you for listening to this episode with Sandra Drury. To learn more about Sandra and to find all of the resources that we mentioned during this discussion, just take a look down in the show notes as a heads up. You won't want to miss next week's fascinating discussion with Daryl Harrison from the Just Thinking Podcast, who's back on again for a second time this year, this time to discuss a biblical worldview of climate change. If this is your first time listening to this show, ideas have Consequences.
Luke Allen:As you heard, this show is brought to you by the Disciple Nations Alliance, which is a ministry that has worked around the world for the last 28 years, training over a million Christians in over 100 nations in the transformative power of a biblical worldview. Our vision is to see blessed, thriving nations with key biblical principles and definitions deeply embedded in their foundations, shaping their institutions, their policies, their practices, across every sector of society. And how we're doing this is by equipping followers of Jesus with a biblical worldview, empowering them to build thriving cultures, communities and, of course, nations, if you would them to build thriving cultures, communities and, of course, nations. If you would like to learn more about our ministry, you can find us on Instagram, facebook and YouTube or on our website, which is disciplenationsorg. That's it for today, guys. Thanks again for joining us. We truly appreciate your time and attention here. On Ideas have Consequences.
