Ideas Have Consequences
Everything that we see around us is the product of ideas, of ideologies, of worldviews. That's where everything starts. Worldviews are not all the same, and the differences matter a lot. How do you judge a tree? By its fruits. How do you judge a worldview? By its physical, tangible, observable fruit. The things it produces. Ideas that are noble and true produce beauty, abundance, and human flourishing. Poisonous ideas produce ugliness. They destroy and dehumanize. It really is that simple. Welcome to Ideas Have Consequences, the podcast of Disciple Nations Alliance, where we prepare followers of Christ to better understand the true ideas that lead to human flourishing while fighting against poisonous ideas that destroy nations. Join us, and prepare your minds for action!
Ideas Have Consequences
Can the Sun Rise on the West Again? | Vishal Mangalwadi
Vishal Mangalwadi returns to challenge the pessimistic theology that has sidelined the Western church for decades. He argues that the West's decline politically and culturally stems from bad theology. We pray, “His Kingdom come and His will be done on earth,” but simultaneously, we as the church in America have retreated from leading in the culture.
To move forward, Mangalwadi proposes a bold vision that begins with education reform, calling churches to reclaim their position as centers of discipleship and cultural formation. Drawing from his global experience and biblical conviction, he offers a hopeful roadmap for restoring truth and rebuilding broken nations.
Main Topics:
- Why Western Christianity adopted a pessimistic eschatology—and the cultural cost
- How the church turned to a private faith and ceded culture to secularism
- Mangalwadi's plan to renew culture through biblically rooted education
Join us to explore how the church can recover its cultural voice and help replant biblical roots in today's world.
- View the transcript, leave comments, and check out recommended resources on the Episode Landing Page!
- Learn More about the 2025 DNA Forum in Panama
Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance, as you guys know. On this show we examine how our mission as Christians is to spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. But our mission doesn't stop there. It also includes being the hands and feet of God to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, today the church has largely neglected this second part of her mission and today most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on Ideas have Consequences as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God. Create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.
Luke Allen:My name is Luke Allen and I am joined today by our host, scott Allen, my dad and John Bottimore, our co-host, and we just wrapped up a fascinating discussion with today's honored guest, vishal Mangawati, who, according to our numbers on the back end of our podcast here, is your guys' favorite guest on Ideas have Consequences. So I'm sure you guys will appreciate today's discussion, but as such, with Vishal we often go pretty in-depth and we cover a lot of ground, so we wanted to give you guys a quick little highlight or summary of what we heard in the discussion, just so that you can have an idea of what to expect. Dad, would you mind giving people a couple of highlights that you took away from today's discussion with Vishal?
Scott Allen:Yeah, I think Luke thanks. Vishal started the discussion, I think, really with just his critique of how the church in the West mostly speaking about pastors and schools of theology really have kind of, in reaction to secular enlightenment, developed a pessimistic kind of theology that just is focused on end times and waiting for Jesus to come back and just kind of hanging on until then. And he contrasted that with a theology that Jesus is the risen king and he has all authority in heaven and on earth and we as his children have been adopted into his family, his royal family, and we should be not just hanging on but we should be having a forward focus. How do we bring truth and light and goodness into every sphere of society in honor of our king? So very much the same kinds of things that we teach at the DNA.
Scott Allen:He's just saying that really does need to be recovered right now, urgently, because we're at this particular time in history where the reigning worldview, this kind of secular enlightenment worldview, is really losing ground and what will come after it really is going to matter a lot and it will be a worldview. The only question is whether it will be the true Christian, biblical worldview or some other false worldview, it will be even worse. So it's a really important time. So, yeah, that was kind of where we started and then we got into, as I recall, luke, some specifics on what Vishal is working on with his movement to bring about change, focusing primarily on education, children and educational resources. He mentioned work that is being done right now to develop a kind of a biblical Christian Wikipedia and, as I recall, he was even doing that with one of the original founders of Wikipedia, who has kind of soured on the direction that it's gone, no longer a platform for free exchange of ideas. So we talked, talked a bit about that.
Luke Allen:Yeah, go ahead yeah, I mean we did spend about probably half the discussion in the area of education and sharing truth with the future generations. John, from that portion of the discussion, what did you hear? What can people expect to hear during that part?
John Bottimore:I think it was a wonderful wide-ranging vision that's looking at taking today's technology and the ability to spread education around the world at a very low cost, very deeply taking materials and again kind of reinventing a new educational approach to a Wikipedia type of a platform and that could be again produced and utilized widely around the world at a very low cost.
John Bottimore:Churches are really critical Now we're talking about distribution here so churches and families are really critical Christians to take up this kind of a vision. So they've got the capacity, but not the vision, as Vishal said, to do that, to really look at influencing education and influencing worldview through this new model of education which could supplement the education that's done today or in some cases it could replace it. I think the whole point is that it's a strong and powerful biblical education that shapes worldview and, as we've heard from recent podcast guests, worldviews are shaped very early in life, sometimes by the early teen years. So it was a wonderful vision to hear this kind of a possibility and it would be great to have the DNA figure out how our role could integrate and intersect with this.
Luke Allen:Yeah, that was probably my highlight as well.
Luke Allen:Sometimes these discussions can feel a little bit in the clouds when we're talking about kind of shifts in culture and worldview, and yet it got very practical today and just talking about education and resources and applications and how churches can be involved and individuals who are listening can be involved, and so on and so forth.
Luke Allen:So I appreciate that. Probably my favorite highlight of the whole thing is when we were talking about the rise and fall of secularism and kind of that enlightenment myth that humans can replace God with their intellect and rationality, and we were asking him do you see, do you see that, um, the, the age of secularism has kind of come to a close and and reached its uh, the end of its life? And he was like, yeah, the, the utopianism that uh led, you know, the, the kind of secularist utopianism of uh communism and socialism, went up in a mushroom cloud in the 21st century and so it's we're on the, the tail end of that, and I thought that was kind of a good way to summarize it as secularism led us to the deadliest century in history you know, it didn't work, and its successor, post-modernism, has uh run its course as well, because it has not provided the answers either there's no foundation there, there's no truth, no foundation, no absolute.
John Bottimore:Yeah.
Luke Allen:So, anyways, without further ado, guys, I'll hand it over to you, dad, for you to introduce our guest today.
Scott Allen:Our special guest today is Vishal Mangalwadi. Vishal, it's great to have you back on the podcast. I believe this is your third time, and so thank you for taking time to be with us.
Vishal Mangalwadi:Thank you for having me. Well it's always an honor to be with you.
Scott Allen:Oh well, thanks, Vishal. The same, the same. And if any of our listeners are new to Vishal, let me just give a quick background, Vishal which it's hard to do given your incredible career and ministry to do given your incredible career and ministry but Vishal Mangowadi was born and raised in India and he is an international teacher, lecturer, social reformer, Christian philosopher, and he's the author of 14 books, including the book that changed your world and the two-volume series. This Book Changed Everything the Bible's Amazing Impact on Our World. Vishal is the founder of the Revelation Movement, which exists to reestablish the cultural authority of biblical truth, and I encourage you to check that out at revelationmovementcom and you can learn a lot more about Vishal there. In 2003, William Carey International University in India honored Vishal's life and service with a Doctor of Laws degree. Ruth and Vishal, his wife, have two daughters and five grandchildren, and you're traveling all over the world all the time, Vishal. But where are we catching you today?
Vishal Mangalwadi:and you're traveling all over the world all the time, Vishal, but where are we catching you today? Are you back in California? Yes, Ruth and I came back to California about a month ago from Malaysia, India and Britain Wow. And now we are here for about six months.
Scott Allen:Wow, okay, well, great. And just one more thing Vishal is really a longtime friend of those of us at the DNA. In fact, the DNA was really birthed out of a time when Bob Moffitt, darrell Miller and Vishal Mangalwadi were teaching extensively in YWAM, and Vishal's teachings, his thoughts and his encouragement really played a pivotal role in the birth of the DNA, and his teachings continue to be a really important part of our movement. So, vishal, you're not just any guest. We consider you family and it's great to have you back on today.
Vishal Mangalwadi:Thank you, I do feel greatly honored. What a blessing Bob Moffitt and Darrell Miller were in the early phase of my work, especially in the United States. Yeah, yeah.
Scott Allen:Well, vishal, we want to get into kind of what you're working on right now and kind of where we find ourselves. We're going to talk at a little bit of a high level today just because I think we're at a really important time in the history of the West Western civilization, the history of the church, and we want to talk about how you see it, what you're working on, and get your advice on how we at the DNA can be most strategically focusing our ministry at this time. But I thought I would just set this up a little bit by referencing Oz Guinness's most recent book, our Civilizational Moment, the Waning of the West and the War of the Worlds. I'm not sure if you've read that, vishal, but it's a book that we have been helped by and challenged by Oz. You know, in the book he argues that we're at a historic hinge of history in the West. It's something that you've written about in your books.
Scott Allen:The West was born out of the rich soil of a Judeo-Christian worldview, biblical worldview, of a Judeo-Christian worldview, biblical worldview. But during the 18th century, the Enlightenment, western philosophers rejected God, rejected the Bible, and over time they established secularism as the dominant worldview of the West. Our most important universities, our governments, businesses and really every other area of society became dominated by secular ideas. Oz calls this period the cut flower time. In other words, western civilization he likens to a flower that was largely cut off from the rich soil of the Bible, but it hadn't yet wilted or fully died yet, in that it continued to affirm biblical values such as human dignity and human rights, human equality and freedom. Some call it classical liberalism. But because those values had been cut off from their source in the Bible, it was really only a matter of time before the flower or the civilization would die or abandon those values and ideals. And then, of course, oz argues, goes on to argue that sometime during the last 15 years or so we've entered that period where the flower is fully kind of dying. You see it, for example, in the growing tyranny and censorship here in Western governments, the utter abandonment of Western morality around biblical morality, around issues of marriage and sexuality, the loss of values of human dignity, human equality, even things like gratitude and love and forgiveness, kind of replaced by a quest for power.
Scott Allen:During the 19th and 20th centuries, during this period of time of secular enlightenment, the church in the West was largely kind of accommodating itself to secularism. It both abandoned its most important cultural institutions to secularism. It both abandoned its most important cultural institutions to secularism you could think of things like Harvard University, for example or, on the other hand, by secularizing its theology in the case of the mainline churches. But in both respects the church had a kind of dwindling impact on culture, and that's kind of where we find ourselves today. So, vishal, that's kind of the setup for where we wanted to talk today. Do you agree with Oz that we are at kind of a hinge of history? That that basic setup that I kind of went through very quickly here.
Vishal Mangalwadi:Yes, thank you for summarizing Osgood so clearly. My book, the book that made your world, was originally called Must the Sun Set on the West title because it was 400th anniversary of the King James Version and he thought that market would have an interest in the Bible because of that. So the title was changed from Must the Sun Set on the West to the Bible and the making of how the Bible created the modern world. The book that made your world, how the Bible Created the Modern World. The book that made your world. But the book still has a chapter called Must the Sun Set on the West. So the imagery that Osgunis is using, that the West is withering flowers because they have been cut off from their root the image I had used was that the sun is setting on the west. Right.
Vishal Mangalwadi:But God promised Isaiah that sun will rise again with healing in its wings. And that is, of course, what DNA has been seeking to do and what our ministry has been seeking to do. And what our ministry has been seeking to do returning the world back to God's revelation, god's truth, so that the spirit of wisdom, knowledge, understanding, counsel might fill the earth as the waters cover the sea. So that is the vision, the mission that we share in common, and that is in fact the solution, that the roots, the seed that created the flowers, the beautiful flower in the West and in the rest of the world. My latest book is in fact called the Bible and the rest of the world. My latest book is in fact called the Bible and the Making of Modern India, and we are ready to do two or three other volumes on the same topic of how the Bible created modern India.
Vishal Mangalwadi:But that's also withering dying because India has cut itself off from the Bible, and largely this is church's fault, this is the fault of theology, and we'll come to that. But so the non-Christians have every right to reject the Bible when the church itself doesn't really see the Bible the kingdom of heaven. So part of the problem here is the failure to understand the kingdom of heaven. Many of my Christian friends think that when you're born again, when you pray the sinner's prayer, you get go to heaven. That's Christianity, that's the gospel.
Vishal Mangalwadi:But the kingdom of heaven is like seed, which is farmer souls. The seed sprouts has to be nurtured, protected, watered, and that the seed then grows into buds and flowers and fruit. That's the kingdom of heaven, which is what DNA has been doing sowing seeds, as you call this podcast. Ideas of consequences that when you sow seeds, when you teach truth, they bear fruit, truths they bear fruit. And so, yes, the fruit of Western civilization, or the flower of Western civilization, has been cut off from its roots, the ideas that produce these fruits, but the mission to be the sower remains that we have to sow the seed, plant the seed, nurture those seed, and weed is growing out.
Vishal Mangalwadi:If you are seeing wheat in Harvard University or Princeton or Yale, these were all Christian universities. If they are just full of weeds that even the secular world can see that these universities have become the source of darkness for America and for the world? Yes, because the enemy has come, planted the weed and the weed is growing and it is crushing, stifling the seed of the kingdom of God.
Scott Allen:Yeah, but I like your hopeful take, Vishal, it doesn't have to be that way, because the seeds of the kingdom still can be planted and nurtured and so there's hope. Right, I think that right now we live at a time of kind of pervasive hopelessness, Just kind of hang on until Jesus comes back. But I appreciate what you're saying here, that it doesn't have to be that way. The flower, if you will going back to Oz, can be reestablished in the rich soil of the Bible and the biblical worldview.
Vishal Mangalwadi:Well and better and more beautiful flowers can grow, because it is the tree of life which we have to grow.
Vishal Mangalwadi:So, yes, the pessimism which has been a central feature of American Christianity, let's say, since the 1930s, this is a new problem because the one very important mark of Western civilization was optimism, confidence which, ironically, someone like President Obama captured. Audacity of hope, yes, we can, that we can go to moon, come back, we can establish a colony in Mars, we can conquer pl, plagues, epidemics, etc. So optimism, that which was different than the fatalism that ruled the world, that was a very important feature of western civilization. Secular humanism, the enlightenment that you mentioned. Secular humanism, the enlightenment that you mention, hijacked biblical optimism and secularized it, grounding the Western's optimism in social evolution, darwinianism, that society is always evolving, like species are always evolving. So that was secularization of biblical optimism by the Enlightenment. But the secular hope that we are good, we can build utopia and Nazism, fascismism, communism these were utopian ideologies that we can build a scientific, classless society. This secular optimism went up in mushroom clouds over hiroshima, nagasaki, that through fascism and Nazism and communism and the two world wars, when we realize that we are not as good as we thought we are, when man tries to become the Messiah, he actually becomes a monster. So secular optimism disappeared and American Christianity which had already killed the Christian mind. Abandoning the universities, retreating into seminaries was abandoning the life of the mind. And so the Bible students, hal Lindsey, tim Lihai, etc. They took secular pessimism, baptized it with biblical verses.
Vishal Mangalwadi:Oh, in 2 Timothy 2, paul says that in the last days things will go from bad to worse. So the future is doomed to be worse. And a whole mythology developed in American evangelicalism. It is called eschatology, but it is a pessimistic mythology, that future is predetermined to go from bad to worse. This is the last days, which has paralyzed American Christianity. So during the 20th century, last 100 years, american evangelical Christianity has been identified with pessimism. The only optimistic religion that grew in America was New Age movement, which believed that through meditation, transcendental meditationental meditation, etc. We can become god, that we we can connect with ets, with ufos, with divinity. We can become god.
Vishal Mangalwadi:So, uh, but our pulpits kept teaching, by misinterpreting paul epistles such as 2 Timothy, that the future has to go from bad to worse, that the gospel no longer has the power to reform. Yes, in the 15th, 16th, 17th century it reformed Europe, but now it cannot reform America because we are in the last days. So this mythology of the last days that Antichrist has to appear. And then Jesus has to come flying in on a white horse to slay the Antichrist, who has a mass tanks and missiles and drones against Jerusalem and missiles and drones against Jerusalem. Jesus has to come on a white horse, like a Jedi knight, with a sword that comes out of his mouth, some kind of a laser sword. With that he will slay the Antichrist and then he will sit in the third temple and then the kingdom of God will come.
Vishal Mangalwadi:So the kingdom of God doesn't come by planting seeds, ideas that have consequences, that have fruit. But the kingdom of heaven will come with a sword that comes out of Jesus' mouth. But our exegetes and our preachers forgot that the sword that comes out of Christ's mouth is in fact his word. His word is double-edged sword that slays evil, that saves wickedness, it gives light. So this whole emphasis that DNA has been hammering, that the ideas have consequences, truth bears fruit. That's the heart of the optimism on which America was built. So from first Peter B King until DL Moody, america was an optimistic civilization. But during the last hundred years years it has become a pessimistic civilization. The christian church in america, the encapsulated by books such as the late great planet earth. That's mindset. Eschatology is an, but there are other issues behind eschatology that have paralyzed American Christianity.
Scott Allen:Yeah, vishal, go ahead Luke.
Luke Allen:Yeah, I think this is fascinating. This is actually exactly where I was hoping we would go. I saw Vishal a couple days ago. You posted on social media a similar thought and I was hoping to talk about it with you, so I'm glad you brought it up. I dad, you know this, all my friends know this. I'm a stubborn optimist. I've always been that way and as a stubborn optimist in the church, when I'm having discussions with people, when I try to be very optimistic, a lot of people take that, what I'm saying, what I'm, what I'm. You know the, the hope I have, and they'll immediately go to eschatology. You know well, you must be this, or you must think this or you must, and I'm like, no, I'm just like you were saying, michelle, this is, this is simple, just great commission obedience that I'm talking about here. We don't really need to dive into eschatology in order for me to be optimistic. You know, on social media you posted the kingdom of heaven comes when true ideas are taught and nurtured to bear fruit.
Vishal Mangalwadi:It's that simple, yes, and optimism did not come from eschatology. The Western optimism came from understanding of the freedom of God, on which was built the idea of the freedom of man to shape his own destiny. The freedom see Greco-Roman worldview was fatalistic, and that fatalism came from a belief that God is part of cosmos. Man is great demigods, angels, archangels these are greater, there are gods and goddesses and there is supreme god, zeus, but they are all part of the cosmos. They can't change the laws of cosmos. So after winter comes autumn, and then summer, and then spring fall and then back to winter. The cycle goes on. So God cannot change that cycle because he's part of the cosmos. He has lived by the laws of the cosmos. It was William of Ockham, a professor in Oxford, when he was meditating on Genesis 1-1, in the beginning God created heavens and earth. He realized that God pre-existed the cosmos. He exists outside the cosmos, so he cannot be bound by the laws that govern cosmos. He created these laws, he respects them, he can change them. So the freedom of god and oxford punished him. He was arrested and sent to the pope to be penalized. I won't go into his detail, but 200, 300 years later, when, during the Renaissance movement this is just before the Reformation, the Renaissance movement.
Vishal Mangalwadi:It was Piccadilla Mirandola who built the doctrine of man. If man is made in God's image, then man is also free. He can become stronger, wiser than the angels, but he can also make himself foolish and dumb and like earthworm. So where does man fit into this order of creation? Pico, in his oration on the dignity of man, the whole concept of the dignity of man was not an eschatological concept. It was a metaphysical concept that man, made in the image of free God, is free to shape his own destiny. Now it was this concept of the freedom of God and freedom of man which Martin Luther then applied to politics in his Treatise on Christian Liberty 1520, a Treatise on Christian Liberty that if man was created to be free, politics, church governance, must cultivate this freedom.
Vishal Mangalwadi:So the freedom of conscience, freedom to think outside the box, freedom to innovate, to create things, to look on a disease and fight it, that we can overcome this disease, to turn deserts into gardens, this optimism to turn military dictatorships into free societies where individuals are free tyrants, limiting the power of tyrants. So this became the part of that beautiful flowers that Oz Guinness is saying that the West was a beautiful flowers with individual freedom, religious liberty, liberty of conscience, liberty of speech, that in the university, as a research student, you can say that all my professors, all the scientists in this field have been wrong. Here is the truth, that innovative spirit. So this was all part of that idea of the unique dignity of man and this is what brought optimism. And this is what brought optimism which was then secularized by the Enlightenment. So Renaissance was before the Reformation.
Vishal Mangalwadi:Enlightenment came 200 years after the Reformation and they liked all the fruit and they said we don't need the Bible, we don't need theology, we don't need the bible, we don't need theology, we don't need truth. The human mind can know. So that confidence in rationalism. It's like I have eyes, I can see. Why do I need god? The fact is that eyes don't see anything without light. You need the sun, you need electricity, you need candles or whatever. Eyes are dependent. If you take the light away, eyes don't see anything. That's how mind is like the eye, but it needs light, it needs revelation. You take revelation away, you don't even know what man is.
Vishal Mangalwadi:So if our universities and our encyclopedias, such as Wikipedia, have become the source of darkness, it's because they don't even know what is male, what is female. So if you don't know what is male, what is female? So if you don't know what is male, what is female, you can't define what marriages. If you look up Wikipedia as his own marriage, what is marriage? They don't know. And the problem is not Harvard University. The problem is this ecosystem which is now actually symbolized by Wikipedia, where you look at DNA, you look at the complexities of the cosmos, but you cannot see that there has to be intelligence behind it. So consistently Wikipedia, for example, rubbishes intelligent design as pseudoscience. Michael Behe is a pseudoscientist, stephen Myers is a pseudoscientist, discovering Institute. So this is the ecosystem which is cutting the roots of the flowers. So our universities, our encyclopedia, our schools are destroying. They're planting the weed which is bearing fruit that people don't know.
Vishal Mangalwadi:If sexual purity is a good thing, what is adultery? The Wikipedia essay on adultery says that it should be decriminalized. It is, in fact, already decriminalized in many of the countries, but it should be decriminalized all over the world of the countries. But it should be decriminalized all over the world. Because you don't. If you think of yourself as an animal, animals don't marry. There is no sanctity of marriage. So, yes, the church in the West has to rethink. The church in the West has to rethink why it lost the Western civilization and was enthusiastic to bring Jesus back by Y2K, through 1040 window, that if we reach the last unreached people group, jesus will come back. That was driving the lausanne movement. It was driving the missionary movement. The eschatology was driving, but eschatology itself was mythology that had developed, particularly since the 1930s in America, which did not even understand the problems that 19th century, early 20th century Christianity had faced.
Vishal Mangalwadi:But coming back to Luke's point of optimism, you know John writes in 1 John, 2, 14, to young people young man, I write to you because you're strong, the word of God lives in you. You have overcome the evil one. He repeats that in verse 13, verse 20, that you are strong because the word of God lives in you. In verse 13, verse 20, that you are strong because the word of god lives in you. He that is in you is greater than he that is in the world. That's the basis for optimism. Uh, but that word is sharper than double-edged sword. No, no, that word is not good enough. It did reform Europe in the 16th century. It can no longer reform until Jesus comes on flying on a white horse and the word comes out of his mouth. That's like a sword. That's the kind of mindset that has paralyzed that. No, we are not strong, we are weak. We cannot overcome the Antichrist.
Scott Allen:Vishal, just to clarify on that. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, because when I speak of the kingdom of God, I speak about it in very similar ways that you have. You know, I use the parable of the wheat and the weeds, for example. But normally the response that I get is kind of one of two things. Number one is the kingdom of God isn't relevant at all until Jesus comes back, as you said, in the future. Then he will establish this kingdom. So we don't even, you know, we shouldn't even talk about it now. It's not relevant.
Scott Allen:That's probably the dominant view in the church right. Then there's this kind of minority view that, no, actually we will be advancing. It's a very optimistic view. We will be advancing God's kingdom and the Bible will bear fruit and it will come kind of fully realized on this side of Jesus's return and, and then we will. We will, when he comes back, kind of hand the keys of the kingdom over to him, having established it fully on earth. That's a minority view.
Scott Allen:I run up against these two views and people often are saying to me, scott, which of those two views do you subscribe to? And I say, well, kind of neither. You know, I think I like the picture of the weed and the weeds, that, yeah, the wheat can grow and bear fruit and that still can happen, but there's still going to be weeds in this world until Jesus comes back. You know, the imagery from that parable is that he himself will remove the weeds. You know what's your thought on that, vishal? Because I keep running up against that, you know. And I'm like that, vishal, because I keep running up against that, you know and I'm like, am I the?
Scott Allen:only one that has this weird view.
Vishal Mangalwadi:No, the cut flower civilization is an imagery that for more than a thousand years European church thought that the Roman Empire was the kingdom of Christ. They called it crescendum Because the popes were performing the political ritual of making one of the kings emperor. So he's Holy Roman Empire. He's defending the church right. So that ended with napoleon. When napoleon it I mean it had already begun, the reformation had given a big uh wound to the Holy Roman Empire.
Vishal Mangalwadi:The Thirty Year War from 1618 to 1648, ended with Netherlands, holland and Switzerland becoming sovereign nations free from the Holy Roman Empire, which was neither holy nor Roman. But it was Spanish Empire which the Pope had called the Holy Roman Empire. So the Reformation had begun to birth nations, ending empires. But it was finally Napoleon who defeated Spain and ended Holy Roman Empire, the. So for almost 1200, 1300 years European Church was wrong in identity. But there were solid theology, biblical reasons. They had great scholars who were justifying that. The Holy Roman Empire is crescendo.
Vishal Mangalwadi:But American Christianity has swung to the other extreme. But when Jesus came in Bethlehem, he did not come as the king, he came only as the savior to die on the cross for us. Right when he entered Jerusalem he had already said to the twelve that before you have gone through all the villages and towns of Israel, you will see the Son of man come. And then he comes into Jerusalem on a donkey, and all the Gospels quote that. This is fulfillment of Zechariah's promise that, behold, your king is coming.
Vishal Mangalwadi:The Son of David is coming on a donkey. He's meek, so did jesus come as the king? The charge on the cross against him it was that he is the king of the jews. That's what it meant. That you're messiah, son of the living god, that you are the king. All authority in heaven, on earth is given unto you, is already given to him. So is Jesus king, the corollary of the kingship of Christ, which American Christianity, the large majority, has suppressed? That no, he came as the savior. He did not come as the king, correct Vishal, and I hear that, yeah, he came as the savior.
Scott Allen:He did not come as the king Correct Vishal, and I hear that, yeah, he's the king in the church, so to speak, but not beyond it. I kind of continue to hear that right?
Vishal Mangalwadi:Well, revelation 1, 6, 5, he's the ruler of the kings of the earth, he's the king of kings, the lord of lords. Every knee shall bow, including Caesar's knee will bow. That was the conflict between church and Caesar. Is Caesar the Lord or is Jesus the Lord? So with kingship of Christ being undermined by evangelical Christianity in America, kingship of all believers is undermined. We will reign when he comes back. We are not rulers today. So the idea of second coming, which is called eschatology but has really become a mythology that has paralyzed the american church. The kingship of christ is gone, kingship of every believer is gone. But that is in fact the heart of american democracy. When the constitution says we, the people, the constitution is saying that citizens are sovereign, nation is sovereign. Within the nation, citizens have the ultimate authority. They are sovereign. Governments exist for the citizens. Citizen doesn't exist for the government. The president and the military officers cannot trample upon the rights and dignity of the smallest individual. So the whole system, the flower, the beautiful flower, which respected inalienable rights of every individual, was built on this understanding that the gospel is that the Lamb of God shed his blood to purchase slaves of Satan to make them priests and kings.
Vishal Mangalwadi:The parable of the prodigal son illustrates the gospel that he has rebelled against the father. He has become a slave. He's looking after pigs, sleeping with them, eating their pods. He comes back to his senses, returns to his father that I'm no longer worthy to be your son, but I'm starving. Please make me a servant. The father calls the servants change his robe, give him a shower, cut his hair, kill the fatted calf, bring the best chefs, bring the musicians. Let's have a party, because my son was lost. Now he's found. He was dead, he's alive, so they have a great party.
Vishal Mangalwadi:The Jews, they drink a little bit too much so they have good sleep. When they wake up next morning, what happens? The son, prodigal son, now returned, reconciled son. He wakes up, he goes to the father's estate and works the whole day. In the evening, laborer's servants get paid. Sons don't get paid. Why? Because father has already said to the older son that all that is mine is thine. You are the owner. That's what it means to be the son. Difference between servants and sons is servants have to be told what to do. Sons know their father, they know their father's mind, they do what the father wants. So, uh, you are doing God's will. That's the meaning of the prayer your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. You've become a son means you have become king. If your father is king, you are king.
Vishal Mangalwadi:So what has happened to American evangelical Christianity is that it forgot the kingship of Christ. Therefore it forgot the kingship of all believers. That God's will should be done in Harvard University. God's will should be done in Washington DC, in the Capitol Hill, in Washington DC, in the Capitol Hill, and this is what the church theologians must be teaching what God's will is. But, as you would see, occasionally I come out strongly on Facebook that seminary movement is one of fundamental problems of the USA.
Vishal Mangalwadi:Earlier, when the church was building Harvard, princeton, yale, when the build at Syracuse University of California, etc. The university was training priests and kings because the Lamb of God shed his blood to make us priests and kings. Now, american Christianity is interested only in seminaries. We're training priests. Well, let the devil train the kings. We have nothing to do with the universities, with the law colleges. Train the kings. We have nothing to do with the universities, with the law colleges. We don't want any Christian in the Supreme Court because we don't live in the dispensation of law. So this corruption of Christianity, where, if they're saying that the West is now a cut flower, this is because our seminaries are training priests. They are not training kings who will make sure that their father's will is being done on earth. So, recovering the kingship of Christ, recovering the kingship of all believers, this would be necessary, these would be necessary ideas to bring new life into the church, and that's actually the focus of what I'm doing this year.
Vishal Mangalwadi:I'm hoping that by the end of this year 2025, we will be able to launch Truthpedia, which will be an online encyclopedia. High school and university, so we will give through our encyclopedia. We will compete with Wikipedia by giving away high school curriculum for free. Within America and Canada North America there are four million high school students. Imagine we give them all a free high school curriculum, and this would be better than anything that exists now, which means that a student who is studying Einstein's theory of relativity Einstein will himself come on screen through animation and teach his theory, and then other physicists will come and show what's wrong with, what is the limitations of Einstein's theory. Newton will come himself, or Shakespeare will come, or Rousseau will come online through animation. So we've created this curriculum and give it away for free to undermine the public education. We're creating an alternative.
Vishal Mangalwadi:But every church will need to have academic mentors, pastors. It is homeschooling mom who is overseeing, so she will get a BA or an MA in education and applied theology because she's overseeing the education of the child and overseeing and teaching the bible and character to the child. So she is a pastor to her own children. So this role of the academic pastor and this is every home or every church. Where you cannot have a homeschooling, you can have a church educational co-op with four or five families bringing their children together and one of the mothers or one of the fathers playing the role of the homeschooling mom or overseer of the education, giving them BA or an MA degree in education, so that no liberal can say that you can't teach because you're not qualified. We'll give them the qualification and that alone will finance the entire operation.
Vishal Mangalwadi:Because if a million parents paid $1,000 a year to get a bachelor's degree or a master's degree in education and applied theology, which is 10 times less than what Grand Canyon is charging Grand Canyon is charging $10,000 as a minimum annual fee for BA we can give it for $1,000. A million families paying $1,000 each, getting free curriculum and a bachelor's or master's university degree is a billion dollars a year which can finance the entire thing. So what it costs to build a high school. In that amount of money we can revolutionize global education and this problem of cut flowers, flowers of Western civilizations which have been cut because the church gave up the life of the mind to the devil. Wow, vishal, I love that.
Scott Allen:So that's really the project that you're focused on right now, which you just described. Yes. And you've got that worked out in some detail. It sounds like as well, vishal Right.
Vishal Mangalwadi:By the end of this week we should have the technology being developed by a team of technologists. Personally, I'm continuing to work on several book titles, so I'm finishing revising a book on Islam. But, yes, the overall theme is that by the end of 2025, let's have an alternative to the education that has existed for 500 years or 1,000 years, using the latest available technology, mobilizing the global body of Christ. The biggest resistance will come from the American church, because the seminary movement has corrupted the American church. The seminary movement has said that it is not our job to educate, it is the government's job to educate. Our job is to save souls, prepare them for heaven, prepare them for rapture. So the whole mindset. But thankfully this is not there, as you know, in Africa, in Latin America, in Asia. So there will be resistance from theologians.
John Bottimore:So, there will be resistance from theologians in North America, but hopefully it will change. It will wither away. Project and movement sounds very much like a larger and more ambitious version of the vision that you had a decade and a half or so ago that resulted in the Trinity Education Project for that period of time. Is that correct? I love the idea of education for all at a very low cost and overseen by these parents and advocates and others, rather than the professionals. So it seems very much like a much more powerful and high-tech pervasive approach to education, like Trinity Education was 15 years or so ago, is that?
Vishal Mangalwadi:right. These were in fact the ideas that Darrell Miller, bob Moffitt, bob Osborne and Scott Allen we discussed in YWAM, especially in Tyler, texas, when we were teaching there, and that grew and flowered in many different ways and Scott was with me when we went to Indonesia many years ago. There were 3,600 church schools in Indonesia at that time that were serving the poor, but the poor couldn't pay enough fee for those families to have for those schools to have qualified teachers. So these schools serving the poor in Indonesia were dependent on unqualified teachers. And then we began a trampled program to give to the teachers, while they're on the job, a teacher's training, a bachelor's degree. So that program continues, but now we are expanding it to give to millions of homeschooling parents the same possibility to become professional and learn excellence on how to educate. So I'm not very familiar with Trinity education. Are you thinking of what Amanda was doing?
John Bottimore:Yeah, exactly that's what Bob Moffitt and Amanda did and I think it has a very similar to what you described.
Vishal Mangalwadi:Yes, yes, amanda spent a lot of time with us in developing. Initially we called it Cache Church, which grew into Trinity. But Amanda found at that point that it was very difficult to give a college-level, credentialed education in Africa because Bob was working more outside of America and there wasn't support from within the American church for that vision. And so, yes, caché was exactly that vision. It came out of a conference we had in Florida, which Amanda did the organizational work. Bob was there. And then we had a few more gatherings, particularly one in Desert Palm Springs in California where we requested Bob to.
Vishal Mangalwadi:I was leaving for Cambridge so we asked Bob to lead a cachet which changed.
Vishal Mangalwadi:So, yes, that was the vision, but it remained a non-degree program, a non-formal program. But now we have five or six universities in America that have actually agreed to give degrees and just last week we call it Virtues Campus, that a church will have a Virtues Campus, so legally independent of the church but under the moral, theological authority of the church. So the best program at the moment within America that is running is in Calvary Chapel, old Bridge, new Jersey. But many other churches are opening up but it has been very hard to get the American church to responsibility for this, the churches that are spending millions of dollars in buildings. In $1 million we can actually change, even in $100,000, $200,000, we can change global education, but the capacity is there, the vision is not there and the vision has been corrupted and blurred by theological errors that have grown. So, yes, you're right that cachet or Trinity education was exactly the same vision, which the time was not ready at that moment and it took much longer for us to get it. Thank you.
Scott Allen:Just to back out of some of these details of particular formats that this has taken. I really do want to applaud you because I do think if we're going to recover this optimistic Christ is King, christ is King, you know freedom-based approach to our theology and to Christianity, it really does need to start with the next generation, with the children, and I think that's—so what you're doing here is really vital. I just want to kind of continue to applaud you in that you know what form that ends up taking probably will take a variety of forms. That ends up taking probably will take a variety of forms, I do think. Well, first of all, vishal, is there a way that you mentioned that this program is up and running? Is there a way that people can tap into that yet or not?
Vishal Mangalwadi:yet yes.
Scott Allen:How would they get more information on that?
Vishal Mangalwadi:In the USA. Just search for VirtuesCampuscom.
Scott Allen:VirtuesCampuscom. Virtuescampuscom. Okay.
Vishal Mangalwadi:Yeah, great, In Indonesia it's Trampleorg. Okay. You met some of the people there. Yeah.
Vishal Mangalwadi:In Kenya they're still calling it Virtues Campus. So in fact, tomorrow Tuesday, no, wednesday on the 4th of June, the Virtuous Campus is having a meeting Zoom meeting in India. But in Indonesia is where we got the big push, where a whole Pentecostal denomination 240 leaders spent four or five days together and decided they want every one of their 30,000 churches to become centers of education, because in 50 years the church had not built even one high school, one seminary, let alone a college. It was the fastest growing church. So we have many countries in Latin America.
Vishal Mangalwadi:I was there in Brazil a few months ago with 15,000 young people coming from 3,000 or so churches. They are ready to have every church become a center of education, because there are no Christian universities in many of the Latin American countries. So we can turn every church into a center of education because the world's best teachers will come online. You don't need to have too many rooms and you don't need to hire too many professors, but you do need a few universities which will give degrees initially and high school diplomas. But soon, from the very beginning, we will create a new system of accreditation and grading which we don't need to get into that detail now.
Scott Allen:Yeah Well, I just think I just agree with you that you know, strategically, when we I Vishal, I think that part of what the church has been struggling with in the West is that since the Enlightenment it really just has been reacting to its kind of, you know, its sidelining influence. Right, the secularism became dominant, the church was kind of pushed to the sidelines and for the last 150, 200 years it's just been kind of in a reactionary mode to that huge shift. And if we're going to change now we can't just be reacting to enlightenment, secularism which is dying, you know it's giving way to just outright tyranny and all sorts of other evil things Went up in a mushroom cloud.
Scott Allen:Went up in a mushroom cloud, so we can't just sit here and react to it anymore. We have to go back, I think, don't we Vishal, and kind of recover that pre-Enlightenment kind of mindset. And I think it's a lot of Christians when they think about this. They think, well, we've got to. You know, I mean sometimes I hear this in this Christian nationalism discussion We've got to take hold of the reins of power and pass laws and do all this political stuff and I'm like, no, that's got to come much later. You know, you've got to start with kids and mindsets and you know, only then will it be able to be reflected in laws again.
John Bottimore:It's returning to our roots, literally is what we're talking about our earlier roots and our roots from Scripture that we've talked about here, with the seed and the flourishing seed.
Vishal Mangalwadi:Thank you yes, my main comment would be that many Christians think obviously every family has to begin with preschool, primary school, high school. But at a cultural level, you cannot fight Harvard and Princeton and Yale with high schools, with primary schools, with home schools. If the ecosystem is being the educational ecosystem, the knowledge bank is Wikipedia. That's where you have to confront because your Christian high school students, when they're writing an essay, they're using, they're dependent on Wikipedia. And if the Wikipedia is saying that intelligent design is pseudoscience, you need essays on encyclopedia which are telling you that no, no, no, everything in nature is pointing to intelligence, etc.
Vishal Mangalwadi:So I would say that every homeschooler needs an encyclopedia. So DNA, for example, all the tremendous teaching that you have given, you have written, bob has written, daryl has written. All of this needs to be put in an encyclopedia, out of which AI will create 20-minute lessons, 30-minute, 45-minute lesson plans. That what is a work ethic, what is Monday, christianity, et cetera, which can be at college level or high school level, or junior, a primary school level. So if all the material was there on an encyclopedia, it's available to the whole world in many different languages and can be used at educational level. So we are simultaneously starting with an encyclopedia. In order to support primary schools, home schools and our South Korean brothers, they are investing money and effort to build a million micro schools, to have every evangelist and pastor established a micro school, which is getting into the church, the idea that the church can take care of the mind of the little children.
Scott Allen:Well, in addition to encyclopedia, let me encourage you to also take on the dictionary. I mean, that's the subject of my most recent book, vishal Ten Words to Transform Our Broken World.
Vishal Mangalwadi:Absolutely.
Scott Allen:And we need to recover biblical true biblical definitions. This is something our American founding fathers understood Absolutely, and so that's also critical at this time. When you're talking about schools, we need encyclopedias and dictionaries that are rooted in the truth. Yes, I'm sure you would agree with that.
Vishal Mangalwadi:Yes, absolutely. Vishal, can I squeeze in a question?
Luke Allen:I just it's an itch. A few minutes ago you were talking about how you're presenting this education. Third education revolutions, I believe what you call this whole project. Is that still the title of it?
Vishal Mangalwadi:Yes, we do have a specific title in mind for the encyclopedia, which probably is not good to share in public.
Luke Allen:Okay, got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, saving that, but anyways, you mentioned that the American Church does not have a vision for this. How does the American Church regain a vision for this?
Vishal Mangalwadi:The church has the capacity and individually and Bob Moffitt did it and David Glesney who's running Virtuous Campus he's been doing it for 15 years. You talk to pastors, elders, they all agree that, yes, this needs to happen, but then they're all so busy with so many things that the most important thing of sowing the seeds in the next generation, they don't take responsibility. So I'm becoming more ruthless or brutal in saying that American theology is the source of the problem. The seminaries are the source of the problem. You're training priests, you're not training kings, whereas the Lamb of God shed his blood to make us priests and kings. It is American sociology which has corrupted American theology Two ways.
Vishal Mangalwadi:The doctrine of separation of church and state has become the doctrine of separation of church and state, has become the doctrine of separation of church and education, church and governance of God and governance Should God's will be done. In the political sphere. Separation of church and state has come to mean separation of God and governance, and this is a corruption of theology. The commission to the church, to Jesus, says three times in John 14, 15 and 16, that I will baptize you with the spirit of truth. I am the truth. I can teach you all truth, but you can't bear it now. So I will baptize you with the spirit of truth. He will lead you into all truth, because all truth is God's truth, and he will bear witness to the truth. And he will bear witness to the truth, you will bear witness to the truth. This truth is what the American church has given up because it has misunderstood salvation by faith alone.
Vishal Mangalwadi:Faith enslaves, truth liberates. That's why we must believe what is true. If you believe in a stone, your faith doesn't save you. If you believe in a demon, your faith doesn't save you. Jewish faith enslaved the Jews, and that's what Jesus said to the Pharisees that you are slaves of the law. Christian faith enslaved early Christians. That was Paul's fight in Galatians that these brothers who are coming from James, from Jerusalem, to circumcise you. They want to enslave you. Christ has come to set you free. Don't allow yourself to be enslaved by religion. So religion, whether Judaism or Christianity, can become slavery.
Vishal Mangalwadi:And that is what the reformers were fighting against in the Middle Ages, the Reformation, that Christianity had become the means of slavery. It had blinded the eyes. So the Reation is confrontation. It's fight. It's not pleasant because it becomes very unpleasant. So truth has been given up because in this reformation there was no slogan sola veritas truth alone. No such slogan was needed because the Catholics and Protestants were not fighting over truth. Both agreed that truth must be believed. The slogan faith alone was with reference to whether faith saves or works are also necessary. The Roman Catholics were saying works are also necessary. In that context a slogan had risen faith alone. But American evangelicalism misunderstands. It says truth is irrelevant. So let Harvard teach it, we will just cultivate faith.
Scott Allen:So that's the corrupting— by the way, vishal, that's a corruption of faith, not just truth, because biblically, faith is faith in what is true. That's why you can have faith in it, that's why you can trust in it, because that's the Old Testament word for faith. It's something that's solid, trustworthy and true, and the New Testament, word pistis, is evidence of something that's true. So you're right. I mean, I think we've got to recover the word truth, but also faith in this bigger sense. Yeah, so just add that to what you're saying. I agree, thank you.
John Bottimore:Vishal, if I could take us back to the beginning of the sun setting metaphor that you talked about and ask where and why is the sun rising other places, and it doesn't have to be just a geographical answer. More importantly is what are the conditions where the sun rises? What can we learn from that? How can we learn something in the West that we can learn and emulate? Do we have the humility to do so in the Western church? What do you think?
Vishal Mangalwadi:I think, say in India there is much persecution because so many people are converting to Christ, and most of these are poor people from lower caste. There are some educated, higher castes as well, and these are people. There must be 100,000 or more new churches that have sprung up in the middle of the persecution throughout India. 200 years ago, when Western missionaries came, they built mission schools. Some of them have very high quality, but now we don't have the capital to put up the buildings, to hire teachers. So this new generation is very keen to rise up because the they don't have properties. They don't have properties, they don't have business experience, they don't have equity to get bank loans, etc. The real wealth that they have is in the hearts and minds of their young people. That's wisdom that has to be developed.
Vishal Mangalwadi:So the West developed because the church educated. Protestant movement educated every child. Protestant movement educated every child and that was what I call the second education revolution that Martin Luther started. So in South America, Latin America, in Africa, in Asia, the church is hungry and let me give them an opportunity that look, we can build up the personal, the minds of your young people, because that's where the true wealth is, those ideas which they buy will have consequences economic consequences, political consequences, economic consequences, political consequences. So this will come into US as well. This is one very good part of the fight against Ivy League universities, because the problem is not just Ivy League universities, the problem is also high school education, et cetera, etc. But what the political politicians can do is to help demolish the source of evil. But it is the church which has to take the responsibility to baptize, fill the nation with the wisdom and knowledge of God. So that's where awakening the church, and this is going to get us into a lot of conflicts with seminaries and theologians. That is this really what?
Vishal Mangalwadi:And the missionary movement? Because so much of the missionary movement has been driven since Lausanne 74, that we can bring Jesus back by Y2K by finishing the task, which means taking the gospel to all the unreached people groups. This has been a particular missiology which has driven the mission and therefore the energy of the missionary movement was diverted and therefore the energy of the missionary movement was diverted. It was all focused on bringing Jesus back. Now the goalpost has been shifted to 2033. We can bring Jesus back by 2033 by finishing the task, but that's an eschatology which is really a mythology driving American missions, but we have to see that God's mission is to fill the earth with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea, and that's where a conflict with the American evangelical establishment has to happen.
Scott Allen:Bishal we are running long and I appreciate your generosity of time. American evangelical establishment has to happen. Bishal, we are running long and I appreciate your generosity of time I would love to get one more question if you don't mind.
Scott Allen:It's helpful to know. You know because again I want to take us back to the beginning days of the DNA. You were influential in shaping our you know kind of the way we thought about the ministry, the movement, and I think we're at a turning point right now at the DNA as well. You know, the founding fathers of the DNA Darren Bob, you know are passing the torch to a younger generation and there's other things that are happening. What do you think is important for us as a DNA movement, given where we're at right now? What should we be thinking about and focusing on? What advice would you have for us, vishal? I know that's.
Vishal Mangalwadi:The first request would be that all the material that not only has been published by Bob and Darrow and you, but also stopped spoken, we should put it all together in various forms in encyclopedia so that, both at the university level but also at high school level, people can benefit from it in many different languages. Then the people that you have impacted and you've had a huge impact in many countries, particularly Africa and Latin America those people could be given the possibility to teach this content, integrating it into the curriculum for at school level, primary school level, high school level, uh college level and uh seminary level. So bible teaching will be very central to the whole program, but the Bible will be related to all of life, as you emphasize it, that for Monday morning, the Bible and spirituality. So I think the goodwill that you have given, giving people technological means and training to pass on these seeds and nurture them, apply them, would be a wonderful step.
Scott Allen:Well, I appreciate that, vishal, we can talk more about that. I would, of course, be completely excited about that idea, working together with you to play some role or part. What about the American church? Again, I've felt for some time now God kind of directing us back towards a focus on the Western church, the American church. You know, as you know, historically we've been working in the South, you know Africa, asia, latin America, but, as you said, there's just such a need in the West at this time for the Church to stop reacting against Enlightenment, secularism and kind of recover that earlier vision of what it meant to be the Church, even though there is a resistance to it. Any thoughts for you on that, vishal? Because it seems to me we can't. We really do need to. There needs to be some kind of a reformation, a change at the level of our leadership in the Church in the West.
Vishal Mangalwadi:Well, god has given you gifted writers and teachers, and that has impacted groups such as YWAM has impacted groups such as YWAM, but not yet penetrated the church leadership itself.
Vishal Mangalwadi:So I think it may be time for us to meet together and the folks in YWAM, particularly some of our mutual friends. They had already said that they would like to organize a five, six days of meeting where we meet together to consider this to as soon as within this week, our foundation that we are seeking to create to own this encyclopedia, this foundation, will make a positive decision. The technical team is already ready. They wanted to start yesterday, on Monday. They are ready to get started.
Vishal Mangalwadi:So in six months we have the technology, like Wikipedia, which is actually functioning, but this larger question of how do we pool our resources together and we have a lot to learn from Christians who are already there in school level, college level, university level, including in secular universities. We have a lot to learn and gain. So it is a question of mobilizing the global body of Christ for reforming the church, the church, and this will happen. So let's consider that we don't have to go to Kona for this meeting if your team can host because I love your name DNA Disciple Nation Alliance. You're meeting in Panama soon, but I think coming together for another four or five days after these 30 years of interactions we have had to think about the next phase would be very good. I think 30, 40 people coming together would be very good.
Scott Allen:Yeah, I would love that. And, vishal, I know you have connections with people like Pastor Luke Hayashi, teo Hayashi in Brazil. Some young pastors who have this vision and I think are critical to this next generation. Maybe they could be a part of that as well.
Vishal Mangalwadi:Yeah, we can meet there because they have a very good campus.
Scott Allen:Yeah, yeah love the idea, vichal.
Vishal Mangalwadi:Let's talk more about that, okay sure what can we leave with our listeners today as far as some takeaways, vichal, uh, you know it is god's mission to fill the earth with his wisdom, knowledge, with his spirit, and let let's embrace that and team up with him. So he wants to baptize us with his spirit so that, through his servant, his wisdom and knowledge might fill the earth.
Scott Allen:I love that and let's be optimistic. And when Jesus gave that great commission, that was a commission to go to be active, to use your agency to bring light into a dark world and not just hang on until Jesus comes back. So we need to recover that same spirit and optimism, and that's really critical right now. So, vishal, thank you for all that you're doing to that end and just the incredible resource you are to the church with your writing and your thinking and your strategy. We are grateful to call you friends and I look forward to picking up a conversation about the meeting in Brazil, although I like Kona, that'd be kind of nice too. Yes, All right, listen.
Scott Allen:Michel, god bless you. Say hi to Ruth and thank you again for the time and John and Luke, thank you as well.
Vishal Mangalwadi:Thank you, john, we didn't let you talk too much.
John Bottimore:Thank you, vishal, I loved it. It was wonderful to be with you today. Thank you, all right.
Scott Allen:Yeah, we'll be in touch, Vishal, and again all of our listeners. Thank you so much for tuning into another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast.
