Ideas Have Consequences

The Alternative to Abortion: Why We Must be Pro Abundant Life | Roland Warren

• Disciple Nations Alliance • Season 2 • Episode 75

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Addressing abortion starts with discipleship, not legislation. In this powerful conversation, Roland Warren, President of Care Net and author of The Alternative to Abortion, challenges Christians to move beyond politics and embrace a “pro-abundant life” perspective rooted in John 10:10. Drawing from his own story of an unplanned college pregnancy turned 43-year marriage, Roland reframes abortion as a discipleship issue—calling the Church to support not just life, but lives transformed by the Gospel. He shares practical ways churches can respond with compassion, healing, and hope to those facing pregnancy decisions.

Main Topics:

  1. From Pro-Life to Pro-Abundant Life – Why saving babies isn’t enough without also making disciples
  2. Shocking Church Statistics – 54% of abortion seekers identify as Christians
  3. Ministry, Not Politics – How small groups and churches can become safe, healing places
  4. Mary, Joseph & Making Life Disciples – Biblical models for gospel-centered care

If abortion is happening in our churches, what kind of gospel are we really preaching?

Roland C. Warren:

54% of the women that have abortions profess to be Catholic or Protestant and we did a national survey. We found that four out of 10 women having abortions and five out of 10 men that participate in abortions were attending church at least monthly at the time of their first abortion. So if you don't have a ministry in your church for someone who wakes up Sunday morning and takes a pregnancy test and the test is positive but they think the news is negative, then Planned Parenthood and an abortion provider looks like a compassionate alternative to the church.

Luke Allen:

Hi friends, welcome to Ideas have Consequences. The podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. Here on this show we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world, to all the nations, but our mission also includes to be the hands and feet of God, to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected this second part of her mission and today most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.

Scott D. Allen:

Well, welcome again everyone to another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. I'm Scott Allen, I'm the president of the DNA and I'm joined today by my co-workers John Bottimore and Luke Allen. Guys, great to be with you again.

Scott D. Allen:

Thank you, good to be here, and today we're thrilled to have a very distinguished guest, roland Warren. Roland is the president and the CEO of Care Net and, for those of you who aren't familiar with Care Net, it supports one of the largest networks of pregnancy centers in North America, has 1,200 affiliates, over 30,000 volunteers. So when we think of pro-life, supporting the pro-life movement and cause in very practical, hands-on way ways, we think of crisis pregnancy centers and Care Net. Roland is the president. He is also author of a brand new book Well, it came out in 2024 titled the Alternative to Abortion why we Must Be Pro-Abundant Life and we're going to get into that.

Scott D. Allen:

Your credentials are pretty amazing. He's a graduate of Princeton University and the Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania Just a couple of small schools you might have heard of. He is a servant leader with a heart for Christ and a mind for business. He had 20 years in the corporate world with IBM, with Pepsi and a small company called Goldman Sachs, and then he spent 11 years as the president of the National Fatherhood Initiative before joining Care Net in 2012. And I'd like to talk to you a little bit about that as well, roland. You know he is a national media figure. He's been on shows like the Oprah Winfrey Show, the Today Show, cnn and, of course, the most famous of them. All Ideas have Consequences. The podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance.

Roland C. Warren:

Right, boom, right, yeah, never again.

Scott D. Allen:

Right, exactly exactly. You've reached the pinnacle when it comes to media, so we're thrilled, Honestly. Roland, thank you so much for taking time to be with us today. We're grateful.

Roland C. Warren:

Oh, great to be with you. Thanks so much for your interest.

Scott D. Allen:

Oh well, listen, we want to dive into your book, but before that I really want to hear just a little bit about you. I'll tell you. It's funny, I was telling the guys before the podcast. I'm surprised I'd not heard of you before with this kind of background.

Scott D. Allen:

But I did read one of your articles last week. It came across my path and I read it and again, I didn't even know we were going to have the podcast with you this week and you were writing about the desperate need that we have to disciple young fathers in our churches and I just was so violently in agreement with what you were saying and I thought I just kept the article and I thought I've got to reach out to this guy. And then Luke says, oh, we're going to have him on our podcast. So anyways, but I'd love to hear just a little bit of your backstory, given the fact that you have this very distinguished educational background, work background. You know, when I think of Princeton University, for example, I often think of very committed black Christian men who are pro-life. There must be, you know millions of them.

Roland C. Warren:

Yeah, we just tripped over each other on campus. It was crazy.

Scott D. Allen:

Yeah, yeah, tell us about yeah, how did you? How did you just? Yeah, where do you come from? Just a little bit of your story and how you ended up in such, you know, incredibly prestigious places like that and doing what you're doing now.

Roland C. Warren:

Yeah, no, thank you.

Roland C. Warren:

Thank you very much. I appreciate that, scott. Yeah, I, you know, from a Princeton standpoint, I mean a lot of that in terms of my issues around the issue around life and and you know the perspective I have that lay out in the book why we must be pro abundant life, the alternative to abortion. A lot of it came from, basically, my start at Princeton. I was an undergraduate, my junior year at Princeton and I got my girlfriend pregnant. So she was a sophomore, I was a junior and we were facing an unplanned pregnancy and she went to student health services to get the pregnancy test and the nurse came back, delivered the test, said it's positive, without taking an extra gulp of air, said now, of course you're going to have an abortion.

Roland C. Warren:

My girlfriend and my wife of 43 years punchline, said no, no, I want to get married, I'm going to have my baby. And the nurse said my gosh, how are you going to graduate from Princeton with a baby? What do you want to do? Well, I want to become a doctor. She says well, I want to become a doctor. She says well, how are you going to become a doctor with a baby? It didn't seem like it made a lot of sense. And so I kind of imagined that she came back to the dorm and we sort of talked about it in my kind of 20 year old way, you know. We both said, hey look, we're going to get married. And so we did. So I was 19. She was 20. We got married by the justice of the peace, with four students with us, and you know we've been now married 43 years, as of May 1st.

Roland C. Warren:

So you know, at the time I wasn't, you know, I wouldn't call myself a pro-life advocate or anything like that. I hadn't, frankly, even thought very deeply about the issue at 20. But we were faced with this, you know, pregnancy center, excuse me, this pregnancy decision in that moment, and it really informed how I think about the issue now. And it really informed how I think about the issue now. I mean, god used that perspective of what happened there to really give me a framework that sort of transitioned you from thinking about the issue as a pro-life issue to thinking about it as pro-abundant life, and I can kind of talk more about that. But that's kind of where the genesis is. But anyway, so we went on and had our son. She actually had both of our kids, both of our boys, rather at Princeton. She had our second one about a month or so before she graduated, so she had to deliver her thesis and she delivered our son. They're both on time. And then our older son went on to go to Harvard and you know as the kid they wanted us to kind of get rid of. You know this kind of guy he is.

Roland C. Warren:

So it just really showed us in that moment that you know that often, you know, when we see life we don't see clearly. You know saying that's out there, not original, me for sure. But you know anybody can count the number of apple seeds in an apple, but only God knows the number of apples in a single seed. So we just don't understand, you know that. And what we see in the future we don't really see. We don't have that ability to do that.

Roland C. Warren:

And finally, I would say I have this one picture I just love of my wife holding our granddaughter who's through the sun. We were supposed to abort and my wife is no longer 19. And it's this amazing picture of her and just the joy on her face holding our granddaughter who's, you know, just a little under a year at the time. It's just an amazing picture of her and just the joy on her face holding our granddaughter who's you know just a little under a year at the time. Just an amazing picture, and I tell people all the time that you know my wife couldn't see that picture when she was 19,. But God did, god did, and so part of the reason I'm in this work is trying to help people have the trust that God has a picture, has a future for you, has a perspective for you, right, has a portrait of you in the future when you include him. That's very different than the one that you may think that you're going to have when you're making the pregnancy decision.

Scott D. Allen:

That's super powerful. Did you grow up in a Christian home, Roland?

Roland C. Warren:

Yeah, I mean I grew up I mean I was, you know, I grew up in the black church and my I would say we're Christian in the sense it was kind of a cultural thing, but it wasn't necessarily, you know, a gospel focused home. I would say my mom made sure that we went to church, but she actually didn't go to church with us, so it wasn't from that perspective, but the church had an enormous impact on. The church, had an enormous impact on how I viewed life. And really, you know, I tell people all the time that I grew up in a single mother home and you know, my mother got pregnant the first time when she was 16, 16, 17, had me when she was 19.

Roland C. Warren:

By the time she was 23, you know she'd gotten married to my father and then, you know, things kind of frayed there and then by the time she was 23, she had four kids under the age of eight and my father was gone. So you know, the saving grace for me was that I went to church and that I saw men being husbands and fathers in my church. As a little black boy growing up in Toledo Ohio, I saw that. So when I got my girlfriend pregnant, the thought of being a baby daddy or some other kind of thing other than a husband and a father wasn't really something that was in my mix, because that was modeled for me in the church and I had that vision that certainly at that time was a very important one to have.

Scott D. Allen:

Wow, that's super powerful. Well, tell us a little bit about your new book. The title again is the Alternative to Abortion why we Must Be Pro-Abundant Life. I'd like to hear just a little bit of unpacking on both of those sentences. The alternative to abortion what is that, and what is pro being pro-abundant life? Obviously, I know what an abundant life means and what that looks like, but what do you mean in this context, roland?

Roland C. Warren:

Yeah, yeah, I mean I think I'll start with the second question first, because it kind of unpacks the first thing. But you know, when I first started in this work about 13 years ago, I started trying to understand. You know what was the issue, and you know, and you know how do you solve it. What are you solving for, if you will? And you know the pro-life movement, which is a movement that's been around a long time, and I just started to think about what was happening in the movement and how we were kind of approaching the issue, the issue, and in a lot of ways it was sort of like you know, imagine you're walking alongside of a river or something like that and there are babies in the river and you know, oh my gosh, there are babies in the river and you jump in and you start taking babies out of the river, right, and you know, gosh, there's more coming and there's a waterfall and you're taking them all out, as many as you can, but you're missing a lot of them. You signal to other folks they get in, they're taking babies out too, but you're still missing a lot. Somewhere in the midst of all that somebody should say how do these babies get in the river to begin with. Even though you've got this amazing baby taking out of the river machine that you've developed, you're missing a lot In the midst of that. Somebody needs to get upstream to say how did they get in the river to begin with? Because it's not a natural place for babies to be.

Roland C. Warren:

Well, I started to think about the issue that way, which is like getting upstream of how you think about the issue, and so as I started to think about and pray about that, god led me to John 10, 10, where Christ said you know, it came that you might have life and that life abundantly. And when I started to unpack that verse, what I realized was that what Jesus is saying in that moment and this is really important because this is Jesus's why statement, it's why he came it's like this is why I came that you might have life and then have that life abundantly. He's talking about two types of life. He's talking about physical life, which is where we get the word bios right. Bios, rather, is the Greek for physical life, where we get that term physical life, if you will. But he's also talking about zoe, which is a unique type of life that only comes from a relationship with God. So what he's essentially saying is I came to link your bias to my zoe that you might be heartbeats that are heaven bound, and so when I thought about that, I said my gosh, okay, wait.

Roland C. Warren:

From a pro-life perspective, is that what we're solving for? Even that, I said my gosh, okay, wait. From a pro-life perspective, is that what we're solving for, even as christians, heartbeats that are heaven bound? I mean, you could be an atheist and be pro-life, but jesus is saying that he's not just pro-life, he's pro-abundant life, which means heartbeats that are having bound. And I started to look at the movement. I said is that really what we're solving for? Are we solving for heartbeats that are having bound? We should be. Well, gosh, I can't be pro-life, I have to be pro-abundant life, not because I think so, but because Jesus was pro-abundant life, and so that's how we got that framework and why Care Net is not a pro-life organization. We are a pro-abundant life ministry because the focus of our work is heartbeats that are heaven bound. Right, because that's what Jesus did. So when you start to look at the issue that way, it changes how you approach the issue. In fact, it's a uniquely Christian way of looking at the life issue. The other reason why that's so important is that you got to ask yourself what does the term pro-life even mean anymore? I mean, it really has lost its meaning, if you will, because we've given that we gave the issue to the politics and it's framed through a political lens.

Roland C. Warren:

And let me just say it more more specifically. Yes, a person say they're pro-life. You say what do you mean by that? Well, one person says OK, I'm pro-life because I believe in a model day, that children are creating the image of God that Genesis talks about, and that the circumstances of a child's conception and birth should not determine its value, its humanity and worth. Whether you're conceived in love or lust, planned unplanned, whether you have fetal abnormality, it doesn't matter. You are intrinsically of value because you're connected to God. That you're creating the image of God, that's a pro-life guy. Another guy says well, I'm pro-life too, and I'm for a 15-week ban. Okay, well, how many abortions happen before 15 weeks? 96%, okay. So you're pro-life, but you're okay with 96% of abortions? Yes, okay. What about you? Well, I'm pro-life too. I'm for a 20-week ban because that's when babies can feel pain. Around 20 weeks 99% Okay, and you're pro-life too, right, all y'all are pro-life. Do you see the? Problem.

Roland C. Warren:

We took an issue where there's an absolute and it's now on a spectrum. It's now on a spectrum. So what I've been saying to folks is we need to take this issue. It needs to be taken from the podium and given back to the pulpit, because a podium which is the political lens of it, primarily a podium doesn't have any intrinsic perspective. That's why when the president speaks, they put a seal in front of him. It gives the podium a certain gravitas, a certain perspective. Anybody can't run up and speak at the podium because it's got the presidential seal. And when the president leaves guess what they do? They take the seal. Then anybody can run up and talk there. Well, the pulpit has a certain seal too. It's John 10, 10, why Christ came. It's the great commandment, it's the great commission, all these biblical narratives that are the same yesterday, today and forever. The podium is not the same yesterday, today and forever. It changes. Why? Situationally.

Roland C. Warren:

So if you think about it that way, if you take an issue that by its very nature is a binary issue, in other words, when you think about the politics, essentially what you have is you have two people who have a conviction, right, so you may have a conviction on tax policy, this other person has a conviction on tax policy, or this one's an environmentalist, this one's like big lumber, whatever. And you come together in the political process and you make a compromise right. That makes sense. But if you have an issue like life and you give it to a process by its very nature, there's no room for compromise. You actually find yourself in the same dilemma that Solomon was in when those two women came and there was one baby and he said well, why don't we just split the baby? Now, he knew what he was doing. There was wisdom there, and, and, and the woman who was for righteousness and justice said no, no, no, no. You can't split the baby, give it to her.

Roland C. Warren:

So if you take an issue like life, like a baby, and you give it to a process right, because Solomon in that sense was like a political process that you split, you see what happens you end up with injustice, you end up with sacrificing the vulnerable. So the people of the book, the people of the podium, may have that perspective, but the people of the pulpit, which Solomon transitioned to in terms of what he was solving for, they understand you can't spit the baby, do you see? So, from my perspective, being pro-abundant life means that the church and the Christians have a very specific way of looking at the life issue and that the church leads on this issue with the politics playing its appropriate role. But if you put the politics in the role of solving for justice and righteousness, you end up splitting the baby, and that's really what the problem is. So that was the kind of overarching framework of the difference, in my view, between being pro-life and being pro-abundant life.

Roland C. Warren:

And I believe, as I said, jesus wasn't just pro-life, he was pro-abundant life. Why? Because he said he was.

Scott D. Allen:

That's really powerful. How does that translate into the work of, specifically of Care Net? When I think of the crisis pregnancy centers around the country, including here in my own town, what does that mean practically?

Roland C. Warren:

Yeah, practically, then, you kind of think about it this way. Let's say, imagine that I created a roof and it's a pro-abundant life roof and you have two pillars that hold that roof up. The first pillar is God's design for family. So, in terms of practice, what you do is that you're actually modeling what you do based on the most celebrated unplanned pregnancy in human existence, which is the birth of Christ. Right, I mean, jesus was unplanned from a human perspective. Mary had hopes and dreams and aspirations for her life that didn't include a child at that time and in this way, right. And then the angel comes to her and says listen, you're going to conceive and bear a child. And I'm sure Mary had all this uncertainty swirling around in her head. You know what's Joseph going to say, what's my family going to say? How am I going to take care of this baby? All this uncertainty. And she has a clarity in that moment to not focus on the uncertainty of what she doesn't know. She focuses on the certainty of what she does. There's a life growing inside of her and it's not a life worth sacrificing, but a life worth sacrificing for right. But what does God do to make sure that Mary's unplanned pregnancy is not a crisis pregnancy. He didn't give her a baby daddy and a check. He didn't give her a government worker and a check. He gave her a husband for her and a father for the child born inside of her. He sent an angel to Joseph and Joseph had a plan and his plan was to divorce her quietly, to put her away quietly, right, and if you think about it back then you couldn't put the baby away like we can today, so you put the woman and the baby away. So, essentially, joseph faced the same dilemmas as any abortion-minded man right Hopes and dreams for his life, and his life with Mary that did not include a child at this time and in this way. And the angel comes to him and says man with a plan, I got a new plan for you, man. It is this Husband to her father, to the child growing inside of her. And when Jesus was at risk, mary was at risk because Herod wanted to kill Jesus. Guess what Came to Joseph, again providing to protect one man, two missions husband to her father, to the child growing inside of her. Now, how's that contemporary? When my wife was facing this unplanned pregnancy, she had the same dilemma that Mary had Different way of getting pregnant, but practically the same. How's she going to tell her family? How's she going to have her hopes and dreams? How's she going to tell me All of that? What did she do? She tapped into her inner Mary. And then what did God call me to do? Well, to tap into my inner Joseph. So when there's an unplanned pregnancy, from a biblical perspective, god creates a family. Is that what we've been doing for 40 years? Are we creating families? Are we creating single mother homes, which also lead to more abortions and unplanned pregnancies? Do you see? So the first pillar is God's design for family. So that means the pregnancy centers that are affiliated with Karen. What we do is try to encourage them. No, you don't just reach her, you reach him and them. And you reach them with a message, a holistic message that God has designed for them.

Roland C. Warren:

Now, why does that matter? 87% of the women that have abortions are unmarried. So when you de-link the marriage issue from the abortion issue, guess what? You get more abortions. God didn't do that. He linked the marriage issue and the life issue. So in the story of Mary and Joseph, you see two sanctities the sanctity of marriage and family and the sanctity of life. And, by the way, the first thing he told Joseph to do was what? Do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. He didn't even tell who Jesus was. So he prioritized the sanctity of marriage and family before the sanctity of life, and that's how you get that.

Roland C. Warren:

So my view is, if you really want to solve the abortion issue, the first pillar of that is really God's design for family, which means we have to have a movement that's actually engaging men and calling men in the same way that we're calling women, if you will. Now, let's say the guy's unable or unwilling to step into that role. Well then, that's the role of the church, right? James 1.27 talks about religion, that God, our Father, finds it true and faultless that we do what? Care for the orphans and widows in their distress. What was an orphan when that was written? It was a child without a father, and what was a widow? It was a child without a father. And what was a widow? It was a mother without a husband. So the church has a very specific role to play if the guy is unwilling to tap into his inner Joseph in order to support her, tapping into her inner Mary, which means that second pillar is God's call to discipleship.

Roland C. Warren:

In other words, you see this issue as a discipleship issue, not just as a political issue. So you look at a woman facing an unplanned pregnancy and you say your first thought's not who do I need to vote for so she can't have the abortion right or what kind of material support she needs. Your first thought should be she needs to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. The child growing inside of her needs to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. The guy who got her pregnant needs to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. Too many Christians. If you ask them if they're pro-life and they say yes and you ask them to prove it, they'll tell you what they voted for. Don't get it twisted. There is a political role, but it's not the primary role. If it's a good work, all good works that Christians do should lead to discipleship, which is what happens with Jesus. All the good works that he did led to discipleship.

Scott D. Allen:

Thank you. Let me just put this in very practical terms, if I could, roland. So I live here in Deschutes County, central Oregon, and Oregon was one of the states. After Roe v Wade was overturned, oregon, of course, went the opposite direction. Some states banned abortion entirely. Oregon opened up its doors to everyone else, you know, and on taxpayer expense, you know. Here it just grieves my heart. You know that we are so pro-abortion in this state. You know, and you've got a very active abortion clinic here, right down the road from me, people coming over from Idaho, you know, which is our neighboring state that's, you know, put a lot more restrictions on abortion. Now they're coming here to Deschutes County. I'm in a church. It's a large evangelical church, very active, very pro-life. What put all that you're saying into our context? What's the best thing that we can do I can do as a member of this church to support what's happening right now on the ground here? Because I mean, this is a question I ask myself a lot. It bothers me.

Roland C. Warren:

Well, the first thing, I start with the why right, because if you don't get the why right, you're not going to get the what right. The what here is why does a woman want to have an abortion in the first place? And I have a chart in the book that kind of talks about the missing support that a woman has physical, emotional, spiritual and social support. So if there's not a guy who says I'll be a husband to you and a father to a child growing inside of you, she's much more likely to have an abortion right. But in the cases where that doesn't happen, there's a role for the church.

Roland C. Warren:

So, a practical way many, many, many churches have small groups A lot of times. Our churches, our small groups, are about us loving us. What if your small group became about us loving them? What if your small group had a ministry for women and men facing pregnancy decisions to offer them compassion, hope, health and then ultimately, discipleship? So we created a ministry kit called Making Life Disciples, which is designed to teach folks in the church how to come alongside someone facing a pregnancy decision. If you look at it practically. Why does she want to have the abortion? Why does she want to have a place to?

Scott D. Allen:

live. Let me just pause you right there. It's called Making Life Disciples.

Roland C. Warren:

Making Life Disciples.

Scott D. Allen:

You can go to makinglifedisciplescom to learn more about this Makinglifedisciplescom Okay.

Roland C. Warren:

Yep, it's video-based, but it trains you to come alongside someone who's facing a pregnancy decision, like one of the things I tell you all the time is like if you're doing let's say, you're going on the mission strip, the first thing they do is they give you what cost? Cross cultural training. Right, you're going to the community, a place you've never been. Most people have never been to the place in their head where they're killing one of their children. They've never been there. So in order to minister there, you need cross-cultural training. And that's what Making Life Disciples is. It teaches you how to engage that person physically, emotionally, spiritually and socially. And here's the other point about it, which makes it different, very different. Even if she chooses the abortion decision, we still are called to what Help her become a disciple of Jesus Christ, even in the midst of that. What did Jesus do when Peter aborted him? Peter was going back to fishing. He was like he aborted Jesus, because an abortion is a rejection of life for your own life or for your own circumstances. And what did Jesus do? He restored him. Do you love me? Do you love me? Do you love me?

Roland C. Warren:

So the first piece is pre-abortion, which is what Making Life Disciples is about. And then the second piece is post-abortion. So many people sitting in pews have had abortions and they think that they can't be in ministry on this, and sometimes they make an abortion decision politically in terms of how they vote, because they feel like, how am I going to deny somebody else having an abortion when I had one? Well, that's why the post-abortion healing is so important. So we have two ministries one called Forgiven and Set Free and the other called Reclaiming Fatherhood for Women and for Men, so that folks who are post-aborted in churches, in pews, can be mobilized and be transitioned. And you know, with Peter, who was post-aborted when Jesus restored him, do you love me? Do you love me? Do you love me what he became? An amazing disciple to help others follow Christ. So this is distinctly something that the church is really called to do. I mean, those are just practical ways. Yeah, that sounds so practical.

Scott D. Allen:

I can't wait to check it out. Thanks for putting that out.

Scott D. Allen:

Hey, we're running out of time and let me just again mention the title of the book the Alternative to Abortion why we Must Be Pro-Abundant Life. I want to have all of our listeners check that out. I encourage you to read it. You can see here the depth of biblical thinking that we're getting from Roland, as well as these practical resources. And so, john and Luke, I want to, just as we kind of close up, you guys I'm sure have questions and I just want to open it to you guys as well. Sorry that I've been kind of dominating here.

John Bottimore:

Not at all, Roland. Thank you. This is really really wonderful and eye-opening for us as well, even though we've been in this world for a long time, and eye-opening for us as well, even though we've been in this world for a long time. So your audience is equally the church, to prepare the church to come around people facing these pregnancy decisions, and your audience is also the crisis care centers and pregnancy centers who obviously are facing people at the very moments of these decisions. Both then right, Both and Absolutely.

Roland C. Warren:

The church is the destination for the folks at the pregnancy center.

Roland C. Warren:

We want them going to the church for ongoing support and discipleship, not back to the community that deal in fatherhood, motherhood, sex and marriage of God's design, because then we see them back again. So we want to transition to the church, but also, candidly, 54% of the women that have abortions profess to be Catholic or Protestant, and we did a national survey. We found that four out of 10 women having abortions and five out of 10 men that participate in abortions were attending church at least monthly at the time of their first abortion. So if you don't have a ministry in your church for someone who wakes up Sunday morning and takes a pregnancy test and the test is positive, but they think the news is negative, then Planned Parenthood and an abortion provider looks like a compassionate alternative to the church, and we don't have that on-ramp in most churches. So that's the other reason why making life disciples is so critically important so that the folks in the church know if I'm facing a pregnancy decision, there's a ministry here to come alongside me and meet me at my point of need.

John Bottimore:

Thank you, so practical, you know.

Scott D. Allen:

I'm hearing a lot, and this was the article that I read last week to you on discipleship of young men, especially young fathers, which is a crisis, as you know, in our own country, especially in the black community, and it's heartbreaking Love to have you on again at some point to just talk about that issue alone, that's something that's super and I agree we're just not trying to do it at most evangelical churches.

Scott D. Allen:

It's just not on the radar, it's not what we measure in terms of our success. So I really want to be a part of helping churches kind of rethink what are we doing here and what does success look like, especially with these really critical groups that are coming in, you know, to our doors?

Roland C. Warren:

Well, let me make one other quick point. Look, there are only about 3,000, roughly 3,000 pregnancy centers in the entire country. There's over 350,000 churches, I'd say at least half of them are life-affirming. Imagine if the world was overturned. Instead of trying to lean on 3,000 pregnancy centers, just 10% of churches were doing the thing I'm talking about. I mean, this is it. We've been plugged into the politics. See, that's my point. The pro-life perspective leads you to the polls. The pro-abundant life perspective leads you to the cross. Gotcha.

Roland C. Warren:

And you're supposed to go from the cross to the polls, not the other way around. So when you start thinking about this issue as going to the cross, then you live out the the Great Commission and you see that person facing a pregnancy decision as someone who needs to become a disciple and you love them, if you will.

Scott D. Allen:

Thanks for making that last comment, though. It's not that we you know, it's not that the political thing is unimportant, but you're just so. You're not saying that's unimportant. What you're saying is there's a priority here, there's a way that we have to think about it, a right way and a wrong way of thinking about this issue. That's right. You're supposed to take what you learn at the cross to the polls. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, anyway, yeah, listen, ronald, listen. This has been fantastic. Let me just again encourage our listeners to check out your book the Alternative to Abortion why we Must Be Pro-Abundant, life and Making Life Disciples the resource at makinglifedisciplescom and just check out the website for Care Net as well, and just learn more about this incredible ministry that Roland is heading up as president and CEO. Roland, thank you so much for your just incredible ministry and for just honoring us with your presence today on our podcast. Thank you very much. I appreciate your interest. Blessings to you, yeah, god bless you, thank you.

Roland C. Warren:

Thank you very much. I appreciate your interest. Blessings to you.

Scott D. Allen:

Yeah, god bless you Well, luke and John. What a terrific discussion there with with Roland I. I'm so glad we had a chance to meet him and it was funny, john, just at the very end. You guys, it turns out both played football at university of Pennsylvania at the same time he played at Princeton.

John Bottimore:

I played at Penn, ohsylvania, at the same time. He played at princeton. I played at penn oh, okay.

Scott D. Allen:

Okay, yeah, he was at wharton school there, okay grad school yeah oh, that's so funny. Yeah, you guys will definitely have to try to connect, but yeah, that'd be great, really, really wonderful.

Scott D. Allen:

Um, I thought just so many insights. He was coming hot and fast, and so it was. I was I'll have to was one of these podcasts I got to go back and listen to a couple of times to absorb a lot of what he was saying. I'd love to hear just what you guys, what stood out to you from what Roland was sharing with us in terms of just the book that he wrote, the concept, just his whole take on abortion and the work that they're doing at Care Net.

John Bottimore:

I thought it was very refreshing that it was focused very much on biblical truth and focused on the role of the church and the role of coming alongside the young women and the young men, women and the young men. That abundant life means that the church leads, not politics. And it was very convicting to hear how he was very clear that an issue such as being pro-life is unfortunately on a spectrum and it shouldn't be on a spectrum. It's either pro-life or not pro-life. And the way that he talked about the pulpit there's principles and values and commands are unchanging from the pulpit. That's not true from the podium and the changing political landscape.

John Bottimore:

So he does a really good job of having a framework here that really takes it first and foremost from the church and the role of the church first and foremost, before even talking about politics, and then we can talk later about the resources he's got for small groups and churches and everything, because so many of us have not faced this personally in our lives. So it really is like a cross-cultural discussion to a certain degree when we come alongside. And the other thing that was very convicting is this idea of someone finding out on a Saturday night or whatever that they've found out that they've become pregnant. If we're not ready immediately and they know where to go at 8 am on Sunday morning. We have something ready in our church, we have small groups ready, we have a system ready, then the unfortunate alternative will be ready and is there, just a call away, an 800 number call away. So that's a pretty convicting message for us in the church.

Scott D. Allen:

Yeah, I really agree with that. Yeah, I'd like to kind of go a little bit deeper on both of those tracks John, His discussion on pro-life, kind of politically versus in the church, and then the practical side in the church. Before we do that, though, Luke, let me have you put on the table the things that are going on in the church. Um, before we do that, though, Luke, what? Let me let me just have you put put on the table of the things that are going on in your head.

Luke Allen:

Yeah, yeah, that was such a great discussion. It's, um, it's. This is one of those topics where it's so, uh, if you go to almost any church, we're going to agree that we're pro-life. You know, and when he gave that analogy at the beginning of the babies floating down the river towards a waterfall, we'll all agree. Obviously, as Christians, you got to pull those babies out of the river as quickly as you can, of course, save babies. But his desire to go upstream and see what's actually getting these babies in the river, I think is the approach we need to have.

Luke Allen:

You know, so often it's so easy as Christians to complain about all these terrible cultural consequences that we see around us, whether it's abortion or whether it's the breakdown of the family, or whether it's the gender ideologies, confusion in schools or whatever it is, but then we stop there, you know. Let's get back to the ideas that actually cause these consequences to happen. Let's get back to the source here, and so I just love that message that's so important. In getting back to the abundant life and then outlining what the abundant life looks like, I thought was really helpful as well. For a long time, I think, personally, I was under the false idea that if we can just let people know what an abortion actually is and what's happening in the womb Christian or not, everyone in America would agree this is wrong. If we can show them that the heartbeat's actually beating, you know, at two weeks or three weeks or whenever they've actually figured that out now, if we can actually show them that this is not a clump of cells, that this is a human being inside the womb, that just like you, then we will be able to solve this problem. That's not true and, unfortunately, the more and more science proves that, yes, this is truly a human being inside of the mother's womb. Um, that has not changed the issue for anyone. Uh, so it's. It's not a biological question anymore. This. I I'm not exactly sure if this is true or not, but they did this survey recently on just America's common humanity and where it sits today and basically, um, if this I'm not exactly sure if this is true, but if it's not, it still serves serves a point. Uh, they asked a bunch of people. It's funny. It's a similar analogy, the one he used If you're standing next to a river and you have a rope with a lifesaver in your hand and you see someone floating down the river in front of you, total stranger.

Luke Allen:

You don't know them, but there's a waterfall right there. Are you going to throw them the rope to pull them out? But right behind them is your favorite dog floating down the river. Are you going to save the dog or the person? You only can save one. They asked this to a bunch of people. Uh, they split it down by generations. They noticed that in older generations 60 plus the vast majority of people said save the random stranger over my, my dog, that I love. Younger generations said I'm gonna save, I would save the dog.

Scott D. Allen:

the majority of them said that that's crazy well that's crazy, if that's true, I think it is uh. It's uh the name of our podcast. Ideas have consequences and it's just the shifting understanding of what it means to be human and the value of human. We don't value human life anymore though we're, we're not.

Luke Allen:

We don't have a common humanity as far as the way we value it. That's crazy and of course that's going to play into the pro-life issue I mean you can use all the arguments and logic you want. As far as biology goes, of what a human? Is yeah, that's right that's not going to convince people no, but a human, a human is just.

Scott D. Allen:

I mean, we've been taught over and over we're just animals, right? So, in effect, there is no value difference between the dog and the person. That's what people have been taught for years now. You know, and it's just, it's just, it's just a it's just so, of course.

John Bottimore:

Yeah, it's just so thin. Yeah, it's being increasingly true, both at the beginning of life and end of life issues now too, that we see this. So what an abundant life is.

Luke Allen:

If the Christians, if the church, can define that well and champion that idea, hopefully we can have the consequences of that down the road of a restored understanding of the human. So I think that's the right question to be asking right now.

John Bottimore:

Yeah, well, he called it heartbeats that are heaven-bound, and obviously we can see that from a Christian standpoint and understand what that means and understand what that joyous eternal end is for us when we're believers. But the message to the unconverted about heartbeats that are heaven-bound we have to consider what that really is.

Scott D. Allen:

I, too, really appreciated the distinction between you know, there's the value of all life, because all people are created by God in His image. It's their priceless right, all human life is priceless. But then he went on and he said but then there's eternal life right, the life that comes from being born again. You know, when Paul talks about this in Ephesians, you were dead in your trespasses and your sins, and then you know, god made you alive, right? So there is this rebirth, and that's what I was hearing him say in terms of abundant life. And he used the two Greek words I remember the second one was zoe and I can't remember the name of the first one, but I thought that was very Bios or bios.

Scott D. Allen:

Bios, yeah, very profound. And I just heard him make an appeal to say, hey, life has to encompass both of these things. As Christians we know that, especially if we're committed to evangelism. I mean, that's the heartbeat behind evangelism you need to be born again. But yeah, that somehow hasn't maybe penetrated as deeply into the pro-life movement as it ought to, and I heard him making an appeal to that, which I thought was profound.

Scott D. Allen:

I want to go back to the political thing, john, again, because when he first started talking about that I got a little concerned. I almost heard him. You know it seemed to like kind of demean the political side of this. And you know he, for example, you know, I think when we first started talking about it, he talked about how the you know, politicians that are pro-life might be trying to push legislation that limits abortion after a certain number of weeks, you know, and call that a pro-life type of legislation, and somehow that was wrong, that you needed to be kind of a purist even in the political realm. This is what I was at least initially thinking he was saying and I heard Christians in this last election, because we do think I think he's right about, we tend to think as Christians, about abortion in that kind of political framework maybe too much. But I heard Christians say well, I can't vote for Donald Trump because he doesn't support life from conception. He would be in favor of laws or legislation that would limit abortion after a certain number of weeks, but he wouldn't have that perfect kind of purist position and I always thought, you know, it's important for Christians, as he was saying, the church, the pulpit, to have that like voice, that all human life, no matter you know how it was conceived, what color, what you know station in life, poverty, whatever it is all human life is sacred and it's priceless from the time of conception. Like that's the strong, clear message.

Scott D. Allen:

But then politicians have to work to pass legislation in a country where not everyone believes that and you just have to make incremental gains. I mean, I think of people like William Wilberforce. He's a politician, a Christian, and he had to make incremental gains on the abolition of slavery. It just didn't—he couldn't come in there as a purist and say abolish it all. You know, it just wasn't going to happen. And that's just a confusion over politics. Right To be a Christian in politics means you can't—you know it's not the same message as it is from the Pope it is.

Scott D. Allen:

But then you've got to take incremental gains and I've often thought, gosh, if we could at least get to, you know, limit abortion after X number of weeks, because we have one of the in the United States, one of the most horrific, you know, roe v Wade was. You know there was no limit on it. And when they put us in the category of countries like North Korea and China, very few countries had no limits on abortion. And so, gosh, if we could at least make some headway on that. But I think he came back at the end of it and said no, politics is important and it's important, but this has been an area where we could have kind of probed a little bit further. This can't just be a political discussion.

Luke Allen:

I think that's what I heard him say kind of strongly, but it wasn't. It wasn't discounting yeah, go ahead. I wasn't hearing him say that at first. I was just hearing him say that when you label yourself pro-life, it means you're on a broad spectrum, and a broad spectrum not of what you're going to pass legislatively, but of why you're pro-life. And some people are pro-life because they believe in, yeah, the image of God, the Imago Dei, life, because they believe in, yeah, the image of god, the imago dei, and all that. That means an abundant life. And other people are pro-life because it gets more votes, or it's what all their friends say they are, or you know, the why has nothing to do with human life and the value of human life. It just has to do with something else. It's. It's not a, it's a political issue, not a moral issue. That's. That's more of what I was hearing. I don't know.

John Bottimore:

Yeah, I thought so too, the the practicality of it of. Of course, if we want to protect as many lives as possible, and if that has to happen on kind of an incremental gain basis, then that's not ideal but it's better than that. But that's politics, I mean that's, that's also it also, obviously, that the path to really changing is not political. The path to really changing is the hearts and minds, absolutely, and that happens person by person and church by church.

Scott D. Allen:

And again, 350,000 churches have a lot of reach to their own members and to society as a whole, and it's such a fundamental thing yeah you know it's such a good point, john, and I'm going back to Wilberforce and you know he would, I think, firmly agree with you that you know, and that the issue there was the emancipation of slavery, the ending of the slave trade. That couldn't happen politically in England until people's hearts and minds changed, and so he was very aware of that and he also saw that as the role largely of the church and that's why he worked so closely with Whitefield and Wesley in that great revival, because that was actually changing hearts and minds. That kind of laid the foundation then for political solutions and legislation. It couldn't have happened without it. So I think you're spot on and just important for us to remember but not to pit these things against each other. I don't like that, don't do that, Don't do that.

Scott D. Allen:

We've got essential roles to play, right, you know, both in politics, but also probably more fundamentally and I agree this is more fundamental in the pulpit, in the church, changing hearts and minds, yeah.

John Bottimore:

Right, and I think he rightly was elevating it, not pitting it, but more elevating the role of the church and the role of education and discipleship. And again, both to the mother and the father, it's so critical and people coming around them and such, so that's just really really critical to see a change in this important issue. And yeah, and he also talked about this curriculum for small groups making life disciples.

Scott D. Allen:

Yeah, let's go there, John, because he clearly has a heart for the local church and the critical role for the local church to play in the life issue and I was so grateful to hear that. Very practical resources as well. You know, think about your own small group. I'm thinking of my small group, honestly, you know. Okay, so what can we do? You know, Luke, what did you hear on that side of things, Because I thought that was terrific.

Luke Allen:

Yeah, I mean very practically. I think at our church there actually is a group that is. It's a group that meets with young mothers who are experiencing unplanned pregnancies and just walking with them through the nine months and just encouraging them, um, towards towards the truth, um. So I have a couple of friends that are a part of that and I'd like to get more involved in that, uh and I. That's something our small group could easily do. Um, I mean these, a lot of these, uh, pregnancy resource centers are. They're ready to go Like they, they have a mission and a drive and they have a vision. What they need is help, and a lot of them just just need more, more resources and help, and I would say probably more more hands-on help than just resources. Giving resources is easy we're Americans, we have plenty of that but what? What can we do?

Scott D. Allen:

you know, hands-on, yes, that's much harder and come around them as churches, you know, with the resources of the church, not just again, not just money, but just the manpower resources of the church.

John Bottimore:

Yeah, I think we've seen the maturity and the offerings that come from these crisis pregnancy centers and all now to again to talk about the role of the man in the decision and to work all of that. It's not just the baby, it's the mother and the baby and it's the man as well, and so it's really, really important to look at that full kind of a decision and all in this and we know, and many of them do this is they really look back and look at the emotional damage that's done post-abortion some people for the rest of their lives and all and so that's so, so important that they understand this, not as a sudden decision to make now, but something that has such an impact for their lives, the rest of the future and obviously, to the life of the unborn preeminently.

Scott D. Allen:

Well, we like to leave our listeners, luke, as you know, with practical takeaways, and I feel like I personally have some from this conversation, you know, because it's something that I've been wrestling with what can I do here in Bend, deschutes County, because it's such a dire situation here, you know, it's just heartbreaking. You know what's happening right here in our backyards. And so, yeah, he left us with some great practical ideas that churches can do and, like you say, luke, our church has some great things already going on, and so a step for me is to learn more about that and then possibly plug in the small, you know, group, community group to, you know, the Crisis Pregnancy Centers here locally. I'm going to check out makinglifedisciplescom, so hope all of our listeners will, all of you guys will do the same Kind of what can you do?

Scott D. Allen:

How can we be part of the solution to this gravest of all you know threats to human life in our own country, the United States, and really around the world? What can we do? What practical things, what steps can we take? What's God calling us to do, luke, john, final thoughts, wrap up here.

Luke Allen:

I loved what he said about Joseph, and I know a lot of Josephs and I'm a Joseph, and for a long time. There's that argument that you can't talk about being pro-life if you're a man because you don't experience this. That's totally false and men have a huge part to play in this. His resource Reclaiming Fatherhood I'm curious to look into and learn a little bit more about that, and just encouraging young men around me on how to embrace their role as Joseph is a takeaway for me Super, super good Luke.

Scott D. Allen:

I thought that was so powerful too. Yeah, just kind of, here's a crisis pregnancy. You know you don't think of Jesus, you know, for Mary and Joseph, as a crisis pregnancy, but it certainly was. You know this was this created a crisis for Mary and Joseph. You know you go back and read those accounts. I mean, this was not an easy thing and it was a crisis for both of them that they had to walk through Same thing.

John Bottimore:

The role of the man in all of this is so, so, so critical and obviously in preventing this crisis in the first place, with appropriate relationships and honor, and all before marriage. So that's beautiful.

Scott D. Allen:

Yeah, thanks guys. This has been great. What a great discussion. Luke, thanks for your work and kind of setting it all up. Really grateful for you and for all of our listeners. Thank you, we really appreciate you tuning in and appreciate you sharing about the podcast with your friends as well. We are the Disciple Nations Alliance and this is our podcast. Ideas have Consequences. Thank you, thank you.

People on this episode

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Scott Allen

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Darrow Miller

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Dwight Vogt

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Shawn Carson

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Tim Williams

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Luke Allen

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