Ideas Have Consequences
Everything that we see around us is the product of ideas, of ideologies, of worldviews. That's where everything starts. Worldviews are not all the same, and the differences matter a lot. How do you judge a tree? By its fruits. How do you judge a worldview? By its physical, tangible, observable fruit. The things it produces. Ideas that are noble and true produce beauty, abundance, and human flourishing. Poisonous ideas produce ugliness. They destroy and dehumanize. It really is that simple. Welcome to Ideas Have Consequences, the podcast of Disciple Nations Alliance, where we prepare followers of Christ to better understand the true ideas that lead to human flourishing while fighting against poisonous ideas that destroy nations. Join us, and prepare your minds for action!
Ideas Have Consequences
Antisemitism & Should Christians Support Israel? | Dr. Jeff Myers
Amid a surge in antisemitism and confusion about Israel’s role in the world, Dr. Jeff Myers of Summit Ministries joins us to share insights from his recent trip to Israel and his new book Should Christians Support Israel? We explore the troubling rise of anti-Israel sentiment among young Americans, theological misconceptions within the Church, and how a biblical worldview can guide Christians to respond with both truth and compassion.
Main Topics
- The Rise of Antisemitism – Why anti-Jewish hatred is surging in the U.S., especially among younger generations.
- Theological Confusion About Israel – Common Christian misconceptions about God’s covenant with the Jewish people and salvation.
- Geopolitics vs. Theopolitics – Understanding the spiritual dimensions behind the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and why peace efforts often fail.
Let’s learn how to respond to the rise of antisemitism and the controversy surrounding Israel.
- View the transcript, leave comments, and check out recommended resources on the Episode Landing Page!
- Learn More about the 2025 DNA Forum in Panama.
Antisemitic hate crimes are at their highest level since the run-up to World War II. In the United States of America there's an antisemitic anti-Jewish hate crime taking place every hour of every day, all year long. There were 9,000, some recorded last year 9,000.
Scott Allen:And there's no other group that's facing this kind of hatred and persecution in the United States. This level right Doesn't seem to be. Yeah, doesn't seem to be any other group that's facing this kind of hatred and persecution in the United States.
Jeff Myers:This level right.
Scott Allen:Doesn't seem to be.
Jeff Myers:Yeah, doesn't seem to be any other group that's facing it this intensely Right. So what should Christians do?
Luke Allen:Hi friends, welcome to Ideas have Consequences the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. Ideas have Consequences the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. Here on this show, we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world, to all the nations, but our mission also includes to be the hands and feet of God, to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected this second part of her mission and today most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.
Scott Allen:Well, welcome again to another episode of Ideas have Consequences, the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. I'm Scott Allen and before we get into our podcast topic today and invite our special guest on, I wanted to just quickly make a pitch for our upcoming Disciple Nations Alliance DNA Global Forum, which is coming up in August in Panama City. Every few years we gather together as a DNA global community of people who've been deeply impacted by the training of DNA, by the ideas and the training. Many folks are actively training and teaching in a variety of different ways through churches and organizations. This is a time when we all gather together and we learn from each other, from around the world, what people are doing, how we can learn, encourage one another and, as an active listener to the podcast Ideas have Consequences, if you're a regular active listener, we'd like you to consider coming to the Global Forum as well. Luke, tell folks how they can do that if you don't mind.
Luke Allen:Yeah, absolutely Like you were saying, this year's forum is in Panama City, panama, from August 4th through August 8th, and I'm really excited about this year's topic as well. I just want to mention that the topic of this year's forum, or the theme, is the essential role of the local church in discipling nations, which is really bread and butter for us, uh, but a topic I'm excited to come back to and really dig our roots into for for those days at the forum. Um, if you guys would like, if you guys have been invited to the forum, uh, I would uh yes, it is invitation only.
Luke Allen:That's right, Luke Go ahead yeah.
Luke Allen:Yeah, if you, if you did receive that invitation email. We've sent out a couple of them. Now We'd just like to encourage you guys to make sure to go on to our website disciplenationsorg slash form 2025, and make sure to register as soon as possible so that we can really start getting a headcount for who's coming. And then also, yeah, like you said, dad, it is invitation only. However, we might not have your contact information yet. If you're newer to the Disciple Nations Alliance, if you've listened to this podcast for the past couple of years, but you we for some reason haven't been able to collect your contact information and you would like to go to the forum, you can request an invitation. And to do that again, just go to disciplenationsorg slash form 2025. And on that page you'll clearly see a section that and a link on the section where you can go and submit a request form to get an invitation for the form. So, again, if you're newer to the Disciple Nations Alliance, that is where you can go and get on the invitation list.
Scott Allen:Dwight, why don't you just say a couple words about why you think it's important to go to a forum? What do people really benefit from or gain from attending these events?
DwightVogt:Oh my, I think if you understand well, if you appreciate the topic of worldview and its impact on life, and you highly love the biblical worldview and its own effect in your own life, you will enjoy being around people who love the same topic and talk about it. It's a great place to go just to meet other people who are like-minded.
Scott Allen:Yeah, a great time of fellowship and learning. Such an encouraging time. I always walk away just so incredibly encouraged. The stories that you're going to hear are going to blow your mind of just what God is doing in nations around the world, with people who are discipling their nations through the power of biblical truth. So again, you're invited. Or if you're a regular I would say real regular listener, real actively involved in the podcast, and you want to go to the forum, go to that website, Luke, what is it? One more time.
Luke Allen:It's on our website, disciplenationsorg, and then the special pages just slash, forum backslash 2025,. But I've also just included the link to that page in the description of this episode so you guys can just find that right there on the podcast app you're listening on and that's where you're going to be able to take some next steps.
Scott Allen:So with that, let's go on with our show. Today, we're thrilled to have back on the show one of our dear friends, Jeff Myers, the president of Summit Ministries. Jeff, great to have you back. Thank you.
Jeff Myers:Scott, I love these conversations. I imagine if y all were in Colorado we'd be sitting around on the back deck and chatting about all kinds of important things and having a good time and there might or might not be a cigar present. I'm not going to make a claim. One way or the other I would love a cigar actually.
Scott Allen:It's been a while. You know what, jeff. Yeah, we so enjoy having you and I love the—that's why we like to do these podcasts, because it is kind of that opportunity it's just let's catch up. What are you thinking, what's happening, and especially with somebody as thoughtful as you are, jeff, who's put—you know just, you have so much to share. Let me just give a quick introduction for our listeners who may be new to our podcast and haven't heard of you, jeff, before.
Scott Allen:Jeff is president, as I said, of Summit Ministries, one of the premier biblical worldview training ministries in the world. Based in Colorado, summit has trained thousands of young people and youth to know and to love biblical truth and to champion a biblical worldview. Jeff is a doctor. He has his PhD in philosophy from the University of Denver and he's a prolific author. He has written 18 books. That's amazing, jeff, and his most recent books include titles like Truth Changes Everything, how People of Faith Can Transform the World in Times of Crisis, and the book we're going to talk about today.
Scott Allen:We've been wanting to have you on and talk about this for some time now, jeff, but it just seems like this topic is still just leading the headlines in our own country and around the world. The topic of your book is Should Christians Support Israel? Of your book is Should Christians Support Israel Seeking a Biblical Worldview in an Impossible Situation. That was released last year after you took a trip to Israel, jeff, to see just what was happening in the wake of the horrific October attacks from Hamas. Why don't you begin, Jeff, if you don't mind, just talking a little bit about that and what led you to make the trip and to write the book?
Jeff Myers:Well, scott. Thank you for the question. I've never written on foreign policy issues, I've never written on anything like that before and I wasn't intending to, but after the October 7th terrorist attacks, I began to follow the polls about what Gen Zers were thinking about the issue. That's the group I'm mainly reaching out to. We work with 70,000 young Gen Zers every single year, and we do that through intensive curriculum, courses and programs, and so I really try to stay up with what people are thinking, who are, say, between the ages of 18 and 24. We found in December of 2023 that 60 percent of those between 18 and 24 said they thought Hamas's attacks on Israel were justified because of Palestinian grievances. What was the percent, jeff?
Scott Allen:60 percent Of young people coming to summit ministries for biblical worldview training. No, no of young people in general in the United States of America. Oh, young people in general, yeah, thank, you for clarifying.
Jeff Myers:The 60 percent of young adults thought that Hamas was justified. This was in December, remember. This is after all of the evidence came out about Hamas's. This is after all of the evidence came out about Hamas's rape and torture and murder of innocent men, women and children. So everybody knew exactly what had taken place, but 60% were saying no, israel is at fault. Hamas was justified in doing this. I was upset.
Jeff Myers:I wrote an opinion piece for the Daily Wire and it was called Congratulations, america, you've Raised a Generation of Terrorist Sympathizers. Wow. And that got a lot of attention positive and negative. But it led to an opportunity to join a small group of leaders 100 days after the war began, after Hamas's attack, to go to Israel and to go to the war zone and find out what really took place, to talk to people who had lost family members, talk to people who were relatives of hostages, talk to people in the military, people who were peace activists, people on the right, people on the left, jewish people, arab people, palestinians, everybody in between.
Jeff Myers:And I came back and realized Americans don't really think that much about Israel. We sort of, in general, think Israel's good, more good than bad but we just don't really care and I felt like Christians need to be thinking about this, and it was an issue that seemed intractable. I mean, if you want to really have a debate in a lot of churches, you throw the topic of Israel out onto the table and you'll find there are widely divergent views in the church, and so that's kind of what we're drawn to. It may seem very masochistic, but if there's a really tough issue that people need to learn to grapple with from a biblical worldview, that's the issue that we decide to tackle.
Scott Allen:So there's a couple of things, jeff. One is you mentioned at the very end there the divergent views on Israel or the Jews in the church, and then, of course, you talk about the thing that's broader than that, just what's happening in the culture 60% of young people being sympathetic to Hamas, feeling like Hamas was really the victims in this relationship with Israel and therefore were justified in that attack. The broader thing that's happening in the culture is the thing that continues to just shock and surprise me. I mean, you know, just last week we were Harvard, was in the news, just in this kind of showdown with the Trump administration about pulling funds, federal funds, and largely it has to do with, as I understand it, strong anti-Semitism. You know that exists not just there, but at a lot of our elite universities. Anti-semitism you know that exists not just there but at a lot of our elite universities. So this is just continuing to be an issue.
Scott Allen:Those are two different things we could talk about. I want to talk about them both actually, maybe quickly, just to focus on the Church here. For a second, jeff, if we could you talk about divergent views in the evangelical or the Bible-believing church, could you just give us a brief kind of—before you were on. I thought you did a nice job of talking about kind of a road with two ditches on either side and you can kind of easily go off into these ditches. Would you mind just explaining that? I thought that was very helpful.
Jeff Myers:Sure what that road looks like and why.
Scott Allen:you think you know maybe some backing on, you know, biblical backing on what you think that balanced position is, yeah, yeah.
Jeff Myers:If I had to summarize where the Church is on this issue, as well as a lot of issues, I'd go back to Francis Schaeffer's idea of two levels—people view two levels of reality. They have their romantic upper story view and then they have their practical, scientific, lower story view. So people tend to take their theology and put it on the upper level. This is what I believe, this is how I feel. I don't ask questions about this, I just feel it and then they have their regular life. This is my politics and all my scientific understanding. All that stuff is on the lower level. Of course, schaeffer's point was that's a false distinction. There isn't an upper story and a lower story. It's all one reality. But most Christians still are in a place. When they look at issues like Israel, they instinctively divide the question to two parts what does my theology say about it and what do I believe politically or economically about it? And those two things are not related to one another.
Jeff Myers:I just came back from speaking at a college as I was fielding student questions. I was on a couple of questions. I was lost. I was like, as a Christian, you don't care about the political aspect of this or the economic aspect. You don't see how that flows from your faith. They were only looking at it theologically. Students had a lot of theological training and good theological training, but they didn't see the bigger picture of how what you believe about God will ultimately affect what you believe about reality, what you believe about society, what makes a good political structure, economic structure, legal structure and so forth.
Jeff Myers:So where do Christians fall on this? Well, it's like a ridge. I'm thinking of about one mile from Garden of the Gods. You know those big fins that stick up and they're 300 feet high, these rock fins. You can walk along the top of them, but it's pretty narrow and you could easily fall off to one side or fall off to the other side down into a chasm. The narrow road is what we're trying to understand.
Jeff Myers:What is a biblical view of Israel? Now, I believe Christians, they can fall off one side or the other. They can fall off on one side by saying, well, I have no idea, I guess God saves the Jews even without Jesus. People on the other side fall off and say the Jews are irrelevant to anything now that we have the Church. Okay. So you see, one side says well, the Jews, I guess, because I feel good about them, get to be in the Church. The other side says the Jews are replaced by the Church and people call it replacement theology, or supersessionism, is what they talk about in seminaries. So how do you maintain that narrow focus to say Jesus is the only source of salvation? How Jesus will save Jewish people is a mystery, just like it's a mystery how Jesus saved me. But to say that because of the Church, jews are replaced, that's where a lot of people are today. Like you know, jewish people are irrelevant.
Scott Allen:Do you think that's, of the two views you're just describing, the larger of the two, the more kind of common prevalent in the church?
Jeff Myers:It's going to depend on what church you go to. If you go to an evangelical church that is dispensationalist, you're going to find a very positive view of Israel. But the positive view of Israel, I mean, there's a little bit of a negative aspect to it. You know, it's the Jews coming back to the land that will trigger the end times. You know, and I hate to oversimplify that, but that's essentially what it comes down to.
Scott Allen:The real interest is in the end times and the return of Jesus. The real interest is in the end times.
Jeff Myers:So therefore, we're interested in Israel. On the other side, a lot of people look back at individuals like Martin Luther and John Calvin and the Reformers, and so their views about Israel seem to be the basis of people's views today. Well, the trick is that Martin Luther and John Calvin treated Israel as if it was a spiritual metaphor, because at that time the nation of Israel had been disintegrated. Now the new Israel has come into existence, 1948. I believe that it's the third incarnation of the nation of Israel. Other people say no, it's not relevant. It's not the same thing as the ancient Israel. It's a new political state. That's not the same thing. And if it were the same thing, then people like Luther and Calvin would have mentioned it. Well, they didn't, because it didn't exist in their time.
Jeff Myers:I think we have to grapple with the realization that the modern state of Israel is, in the minds of people who established it, the reconstituting of a nation that goes back 3,600 years.
Jeff Myers:It is that's, I guess, the point of contention that a lot of people have.
Jeff Myers:So they say well, my theology says that God replaced the Jews with the Church.
Jeff Myers:Therefore, the modern state of Israel is not relevant, and that mindset assumes that Israel is only a spiritual metaphor and therefore it discounts anything that's happening in the land now. But if you talk to Jews who were there and, by the way, Israel was established as a secular, socialist paradise, that's what people thought it would be, and it turned out that the way they set up the laws about the laws of return and so forth, that it ended up being 50% religious Jews in Israel, and so it didn't end up being a secular paradise, and these Jewish people ended up being very entrepreneurial and technologically savvy and so they became extraordinarily gifted capitalists. So now it's not a socialist paradise either. So the left is now totally turned against Israel. And it's just it seems like it's just a few people in evangelical churches who, because of their end times belief, support Israel, who are now the friends of Jewish people and their defenders in the United States. So that's probably too brash of a steamroller kind of summary, but there it is.
Scott Allen:So, jeff, there's the two views and you're explaining one of them, kind of the replacement view, and these would include people. If you thought that way, israel doesn't really matter today. It's been replaced by the church. As the people of God, jewish people, you know, I guess they can come to faith in Jesus and be part of that new people of God, new community. But the people, the ethnic people of Israel, the state of Israel doesn't really count. And I hear some people say things like just treat them just like Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses. They just are people that have a completely false and mistaken view of things. I hear that Now, would that be kind of consistent with what you're describing there, or is that view?
Jeff Myers:do you think, in the church here we're talking, when Jews are just treated as irrelevant yeah, kind of irrelevant, or at worst, you know, just kind of like a false religion.
Jeff Myers:Yeah, well, it gets fractured. Because who are the Jewish people? Is this just a religion? And what about, then? Jews who aren't religious? Well, if it is, is it a cultural set of beliefs? Is it a history? Is it genetic? Because there are people from 103 different nations who are Jews living in Israel, speaking 85 different languages.
Jeff Myers:It doesn't look anything like the categories that the left or the right usually likes to put things into, and it's also a democracy, and a vibrant one. I mean vibrant in quotes. There are 55 political parties in Israel 9 million people, 55 political parties. 15 of them have seats in the Knesset. The majority party, the Likud party, the party of Benjamin Netanyahu, only has 32 seats out of 120. So they have to form coalitions with other groups just to be able to rule. It's amazing that anything at all ever gets done there, but it's a place where men and women are equally regarded. You're equally regarded whether you're a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim. You can be a citizen. They're citizens who are, in all of those places, citizens who serve in their legislative body. So it isn't easily categorized.
Scott Allen:Yeah, well, that's it. I mean I think this gets—to begin to have a kind of coherent discussion on this topic at all. You have to kind of begin to kind of draw some boundaries and categorize things a little bit, or else it just gets so confusing. So, because even here you're talking about, like an Israeli citizen, a citizen of the nation state of Israel, that may not even be a Jew, they may be Christian Muslim, whatever they are, but they just happen to be a citizen of the nation, the nation state of Israel, that would be one bucket citizen of Israel, regardless of your beliefs. Another would be Jew. But Jew doesn't necessarily mean bloodlines, as you were saying. Right, I mean, probably majority come from the 12 tribes of Israel, can trace their lineage back that way. But some, like, come from the 12 tribes of Israel, can trace their lineage back that way, but some come from Ethiopia. They're religiously Jewish but they're not bloodline Jews. Right, I mean, help me out.
Scott Allen:I sometimes struggle myself with these different categories, and so when you're talking it becomes very confusing then, because you may be just jumping from one category to the next and it becomes hard to even have a discussion.
Jeff Myers:That's such a great point, scott. This is when I talk with students about this. I have to clarify with them Now, are you talking about the state of Israel or are you talking about Jewish people as a group? Because you're going back and forth and talking about these things. It's very common.
Scott Allen:So if we could, you know like there's kind of three broad categories maybe there's more that you could flesh out but there's kind of big ones. These are some big ones. Let's just get some clarification. How would you describe that?
Jeff Myers:Yeah, you bet, let's start with a Jewish person as a potential Israeli. They're people who do have a right of return because of their Jewish heritage.
Jeff Myers:Heritage 25% of those. So it would be bloodline. 25% of those so would be. It would be bloodline. 25 of those people live in israel right now. 25 of those. If you use that definition of jew, 25 of those people live in israel at the present time ethnic 75 scattered around the world.
Jeff Myers:Okay, but when you talk with jewish people, they clarify that they're that this isn't just a religion, a belief that they hold. It's a set of cultural practices and it is also a history or a memory. You take all of those things and put them together. The only way to really understand Jewishness as a category is to go back to the Torah, the first five books of the Bible. And when you do, you read the book of Deuteronomy and you realize, oh well, modern Israel views their basic law essentially as the book of Deuteronomy. They see themselves as a nation with a divine constitution, the book of Deuteronomy. All of a sudden, you think, okay, this is not like other nations of the world, this is actually a Jewish state.
Jeff Myers:Now, in America we don't feel too comfortable with that because we don't think that one nation can be a religion, but there are a lot of people who disagree with that. There are 57 nations in the world that are members of the Islamic Organization Conference conference and one Jewish state in the world, 57 Islamic states, uh, you know, so that I may even make it more confusing, but when people think about Israel, I want them to think about um Jewish people individually, as people made in the image of God, who God wants to redeem. Uh, who and God? And through whom God is working. In the image of God, who God wants to redeem and through whom God is working in the world. I want them to think of the covenant that God established with Abraham.
Jeff Myers:By the way, abraham, when you look at the people who were brought into faith in the household of Abraham, it wasn't just Abraham's family, it was all of his men. In the household of Abraham, it wasn't just Abraham's family, it was all of his men. So they were not related by blood to Abraham and yet they were circumcised and brought into the family of God. So you can't just say only people who are direct descendants of Abraham count. So I don't know. I feel like I made it even more confusing.
Scott Allen:I think that no, but it's an important point. Our pastor was talking about this yesterday and made that same point. He said what saved somebody in the Old Testament Was it the fact that they were ethnically Jewish? And he said no, it was. They were saved by faith.
Scott Allen:And there's no difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament in that regard. They're saved by faith and humble belief in God, and he used Rahab as an example of that, who wasn't an ethnic Jew, but was grafted in, if you will, because of her faith in God and then became one of the forefathers of Jesus.
Jeff Myers:That's exactly right. Yeah Well, also Galatians, chapter 3, the Apostle Paul, is super clear that God announced the gospel in advance to Abraham.
Scott Allen:Yes.
Jeff Myers:And that gospel was. And Paul says this it could hardly be clearer. I mean, there are some people who say, okay, yeah, some of the Apostle Paul's writings are a little thick. This one's straightforward God announced the gospel in advance to Abraham. I will bless you and through you, all nations of the earth will be blessed. So I think maybe a consistent Christian position today would say that God has used the church to universalize the covenant that God made with the Jews back through Abraham. Maybe that's a way to sort of walk that narrow ridge. Okay, I see.
Scott Allen:Wow, it still raises a lot of questions in my mind and, like you say, maybe we'll just have to pick it up at another podcast, because I think, before you can say what is the proper, christian, theologically, biblically correct or accurate response of Christians towards Jews, you can't even begin to answer that question without describing what you're talking about when you talk about Jews. And, as we said, there's so many different ways of kind of understanding that. So it has to kind of start there, and this is where I feel like I've still got to do some homework on my own part. But, luke and Dwight, I'd kind of like to bring you in too and maybe we can move from kind of views in the Church towards the Jews to what's happening in the broader culture. I wouldn't mind just kind of focusing in on that, because of course the broader culture affects us as Christians as well. We're not immune or separated. We tend to absorb whatever you know kind of ideas are out there in the broader culture on these things.
Scott Allen:Again, dwight, luke, feel free to just jump in because I'm kind of dominating here, but uh, you talk about, um jeff, something called, uh, theo, political versus geopolitical in this discussion. Could you explain that a little bit, just those terms, what you're meaning by that? What is theo? I know I have a sense of geopolitical, but what's theopolitical?
Jeff Myers:And how does that relate to this discussion? And you're a word guy, so I love your book on words. By the way, I've told you that before.
Scott Allen:It's fantastic. Thanks for endorsing it.
Jeff Myers:It meant the world to me, so yeah, the term theopolitical is not in the dictionary. The term geopolitical is in the dictionary, so let's start with that one. Geopolitical means the political relationship to the land. The geopolitical aspect of israel would be should we have two states instead of just one? Should there be a palestinian state? Should we make the jewish settlers who are in West Bank leave? Should we give a little more land to the Palestinians who live in the West Bank or Gaza? It always has to do with the land.
Jeff Myers:The problem is Americans tend to think that if you can just make a deal related to the land, then you'll have peace. You give a little bit of land, you get peace in return. That doesn't really explain what is happening there. There have been many Palestinian state offers on the table, four of them that I know, of 1947, 1967, 2000, and 2008. Maybe there were others. Those are four that I'm aware of, and in all four of those situations, the Palestinian leaders walked away from the opportunity to form their own nation. Why did they walk away? For geopolitical reasons Because they turned right around and had an intifada, suicide bombings, rocket attacks and so forth, and tens of thousands of people died on both sides. Are you telling me that they were willing to sacrifice tens of thousands of lives to get a few more acres of land. I can't possibly believe that. So I don't think of the conflict as primarily geopolitical. If it's not geopolitical, what is it? I think it's theopolitical. I think it goes back to how we understand our political relationships in terms of our understanding of God.
Jeff Myers:So what you see in the Middle East today is largely a battle between a Judeo-Christian worldview and an Islamic worldview. Not that most Muslims in the world would be terrorists they're not but there will be a subgroup in Islam we call them Islamists who believe that the command to commit jihad is a military command. But all Muslims everywhere believe that everybody who has ever been born was born a Muslim. If you're not a Muslim now, it's because you are in rebellion against God, and the way to be reconciled to God is not through a person. Remember Muslims don't believe that you can know God personally. You only know God's law. The way to be reconciled to God is through jihad. Only know God's law. The way to be reconciled to God is through jihad. It's mentioned dozens of times I counted 60-some-plus in the Quran, times where jihad is mentioned. It's always mentioned in a warlike sense and it means to compel people to resubmit themselves to God, as the Quran prescribes. So that's the Islamic view. The Judeo-Christian view is much more.
Luke Allen:Hey everyone, thanks again for joining us today. I just wanted to let you know that our Global DNA Forum is coming up this summer, from August 4th through the 8th in sunny Panama City, Panama. This summer, from August 4th through the 8th in sunny Panama City, Panama. Our forums are a special time of gathering for our DNA Kingdomizers, trainers and practitioners from around the world, who come together to spend some time worshiping, sharing stories and learning from one another. This year's particular theme at the forum is the essential role of the local church in discipling nations. If you have already received your invitation but have not registered yet, then please do so as soon as you can. The registrations will be closing in a few weeks and we need to get that final headcount as soon as possible. If you've already registered, then thank you. We can't wait to see you down there in Panama. For those of you who did not receive an invitation in your inbox.
Luke Allen:This is an invitation only event, but we may not know you yet or have your contact information. So if you're someone who's new to the movement maybe you're a regular listener to the podcast here, or you've read one or two of the books or you are taking one of our courses, such as the Kingdomizer 101, then we would love to connect with you. And if who I'm describing sounds like you, then you can request an invitation to this year's forum by emailing us over at info at disciplenationsorg. Again, our email is info at disciplenationsorg, and just ask us to send you over the invitation request form and once you fill that out and submit it, we will read through all of those and see if we can make room for you at this special event. That's it for today, guys.
Luke Allen:Thanks again for listening to this podcast and we look forward to seeing some of you guys down there in Panama this summer, from August 4th through 8th. To wrap up, here's what our guest, catherine Gallagher, had to say about this book, and I quote Whoever controls language and its meanings controls culture. This important book is a wake-up call to return to the true meaning of words and understand their value and impact on culture. End quote Again the book's called Ten Words to Heal Our Broken World and you can learn more about it at tenwordsbookorg. Again, that is tenwordsbookorg, and on that webpage you can also learn more about the opinion of the last seven years.
Jeff Myers:More of a politically a republic-oriented view. You look back at the Hebrews and they had a leader but not a king. They had a legislative system, so to speak. They had rulers of the tens, of the fifties, of the hundreds of the thousands. They had a court system. We have the whole book of Leviticus giving us, you know little tagline, one sentence or two sentence, descriptions of hundreds of different court decisions that their court made. And so it looked like a republic, so much so that Eric Nelson from Harvard University, a political science professor, wrote about the Hebrew Republic and said it was the model the founders of the United States considered. A lot of people know that Scripture was quoted more by the founders than all other sources put together.
Jeff Myers:But they don't quite understand why. What they were trying to get at is what was the nature of the Hebrew Republic that God gave to the Hebrews, and how can we make something in our country to be successful like that?
Scott Allen:I've heard that and I've been kind of convinced by that same argument that Israel was really—the nation of Israel. The ancient nation of Israel was the birth of the nation that we understand today. It got lost during the Roman Empire but then it was kind of recovered after the Bible was opened through the Reformation this idea of nation. But prior, going back to ancient Israel, you had tribes and clans, families, and then you had empires right, egypt, you know but you didn't have nation. Nation was kind of this uniquely, this unique thing that came out of Israel and those traditions and histories that you're talking about there, with Moses and the law and you know.
DwightVogt:So I think that is a kind of a very interesting so, Jeff, if you had to summarize this, the theopolitical position between Islam and the Jew, what would be the major difference? I mean, why would they fight over it? You said it, but why?
Jeff Myers:are they fighting it? So Islam fights against Judaism for a number of reasons. One of them is economic. There is an enormous amount of envy of Jews around the world and of the nation of Israel, the same kind of envy that Adolf Hitler wrote about in his book Mein Kampf. That book, by the way, was handed out by the case by people like Yasser Arafat, who was the guy who organized Palestinians into a political force. It is still a popular book today.
Jeff Myers:There are conspiracy theories against Jews that are so widely believed in the Middle East, like blood, libel views and so forth, that there's no compromise. Why would that be? Well, the Quran was written. It was all collected together and then sequenced chronologically, and it's considered by Islamic scholars that the latter passages are more revelatory than the prior passages. Muhammad became increasingly angry and warlike in his latter years and began to say things like slaughter the Jews wherever you find them. So to Islamists, these people who are sometimes called fundamentalists. They believe that the continuing existence of the Jews is a form of rebellion against Allah. That is a stain on their reputation and prevents them from genuinely ruling the world as they believe they ought.
Scott Allen:Do you think that view describes a majority of people, let's say the Hamas faction that's kind of at the center of this?
Jeff Myers:That view describes 100, say, the Hamas faction. That's kind of at the center of this. That view describes a hundred percent of Hamas. So Hamas is. I mean, these are pretty well educated people. They came out of the Muslim brotherhood. They've written everything out. They don't hide it. There's a charter that was written up when Hamas was first formed. They rewrote and reissued the charter in 2017. You can find it on the internet and read it. They believe that the state of Israel's existence must be eliminated in order for the Palestinian people generally and, more broadly, Muslims around the world, to be free. They appeal to Umar, which is the global community of Muslims, and say the Palestinian cause is the central cause of Umar. Now this is where it gets a little weird, because Iran is made up of Shia Muslims. They are many of them also radicalized. They also want Israel to cease to exist.
Jeff Myers:They hate Sunni Muslims and Hamas is made up of Sunni Muslims, but they have common cause standing against Israel. They've got a common enemy. Yeah, they have a common enemy, and so you're now seeing a collapsing of the distinction between Shia and Sunni in all of these various armies that surround Israel and want to destroy it. Can I ask one more?
DwightVogt:question Scott, yeah go ahead, I'm gonna jump ahead. So you just described the theological conflict and what you see is between. Islam and Israel. What's the conflict between the West and the Jew? The anti-Semitism? It's not rooted in Islam and them being an obstacle to Islam.
Jeff Myers:Yeah, I think that's a great point. So I'm going to take some guesses here. When I went to school, all the way bachelor's degree, master's degree, PhD there was a growing fascination with a postmodern approach to the world, and postmodernism, when it comes to geopolitics, is reflected through a kind of thinking, a strain of postmodernism, that focuses on what's called settler colonialism, that it is the settlers in a nation who damage the indigenous people and bring upon themselves a level of guilt for which they can only atone by overthrowing their democratically elected officials and their capitalist government and becoming Marxists, Just to put a fine point on it. That's how you atone. So I don't know if you go to these kinds of meetings that I end up going to.
Jeff Myers:When I go to a university, they'll always begin a public lecture with a land acknowledgement. This land was originally possessed by such and such an Indian tribe and we just want to acknowledge that. They have absolutely no intention of giving the land back. Okay, Even if there's a legitimate claim, they're never going to give it back. It almost. But see, to me it looks like gloating. You know, they're standing up in front of every meeting and saying we won, you lost. We just want to acknowledge that. But what they think they're doing is publicly atoning for their guilt. Why does it have to be public? Well, if there's no truth, there's no God. You don't repent to God for your sins, you don't go to a priest and have a confession, or you don't talk to a pastor and pray together for God to remove your sins from you. What you do instead is publicly act out, because that shows that you're a virtuous person, and people call it virtue signaling.
Scott Allen:But it's for real or becoming an ally, right it's?
Jeff Myers:exactly right. Yeah, that's why people you know they'll go to a protest not because they really care about the cause, but because they can take a selfie of them there and then be seen as a virtuous person. Yes, okay, so this gets back to your question, dwight. Sorry, one more, just to kind of tie the thoughts together. So leftist progressives in the United States hate the United States. They want it to be destroyed, but they don't think that's a realistic goal.
Scott Allen:And Jeff, just to get on that, because, because they're part of that oppressor, colonizer group over the indigenous people, Right and that's right. Everything on this view. I totally agree with what you're saying, Jeff. You understand it when you see this very simplistic view that divides everyone between these two groups. You're either on the side of oppressors, colonizers or their victims. You're right.
Jeff Myers:So why Israel? Because it's possible. It's a little country way over there. We don't care about those people, so if they end up getting destroyed, that's okay. You know, we should have taken a stand hundreds of years ago against settler colonialism and we didn't. So now we're going to atone by having a sacrificial lamb, and that sacrificial lamb will be Israel. I think, Dwight, that's why people in the West are anti-Semitic today.
Scott Allen:Yeah, and there's the element of common cause, which is why you see these far-left progressives making common cause with Hamas. It's not that they share much in terms of their worldview, but they've got a common enemy, so to speak. Right, Exactly.
DwightVogt:What's interesting, and you probably don't know, that anti-Semitism has um present throughout the ages, since the beginning, and yet you just gave a reason for the last 10 years. Yeah, but it's, it's not. I mean, this may be the new wrinkle, but it's always been. That's just. You don't have to comment.
Jeff Myers:But no, I I can comment. I'd be happy to comment. The spirit of the age always is anti-Semitic, but the spirit of the age has been different in different ages. There was a period of time where it was dominantly Muslims who were persecuting Jews. There was a period of time where it was dominantly Christians who were persecuting Jews. It was a period in time in history where it was Egyptians persecuting Jews. It was a period in time where secular eugenicists like Adolf Hitler and people in the United States who thought you could purify the race were the ones persecuting Jews. Now it seems to be persecution, ironically at the hands of a human rights regime that is supposed to stand up for marginalized people but instead finds clever ways to oppress those who aren't politically favored so what's your thoughts on why?
DwightVogt:why throughout the ages?
Jeff Myers:hatred of god, yeah, and of his word. I totally agree with that. The.
Luke Allen:God of the desert, as Hitler wrote, but why not Christians then also? To me it seems like there's an extra hatred Is that true Hatred of Jews by Christians?
Jeff Myers:No, why don't?
Scott Allen:we see the same level of hatred against. Christians, although I think, luke, you do. I mean, we see persecution, you know really on the rise.
DwightVogt:I do think we kind of trail Jews. And what country you live in.
Jeff Myers:Yeah, I think it's a really great question. Luke, you know I've been following some of the groups that look at persecution. There's actually an annual report that comes out about persecution of Christians in particular, and in their recent report they said 360 million Christians in the world are at imminent risk of persecution at the present time. So we don't see it happening in the United States. You might get some cross words if you live here, but you're not probably going to be cross words if you live here, but you're not probably going to have your family killed in front of you because of your faith, as you might in some places that I've been to in Africa or possibly in the Middle East, or even in some remote areas in Asia.
Scott Allen:Yeah, at the same time, jeff, the real picture that we're facing right now in the West, in the United States. It seems like before we got on the air you were talking about the hockey stick. The prevalence of anti-Semitism is really on the rise right now in kind of alarming ways, even in very recent years. You're right, dwight, this has been with us from time immemorial. But I do want to kind of say what's going on now and how do we respond now as people who love God and are trying to be obedient to biblical truth.
Luke Allen:Yeah, I'd love to hear some application steps here, as we're running low on time, but yeah, how should Christians respond? There's something we should be doing right now, especially with this real increase.
Scott Allen:Maybe you could talk about both of those, jeff the increase that you're seeing, and then how do we respond in the moment here to that?
Jeff Myers:anti-semitic hate crimes are at their highest level since the run-up to world war ii. In the united states of america there's an anti-semitic, anti-jewish hate crime taking place every hour of every day, all year long.
Scott Allen:There were 9 000, some recorded last year 9 000 and there's no other group that's facing this kind of hatred and persecution in the United States. This level right Doesn't seem to be. Yeah.
Jeff Myers:Doesn't seem to be any other group that's facing it this intensely Right. So what should Christians do? I think one is we should care for the truth. We need to discern the propaganda that is leading to this kind of anti-Semitism and expose it. Second thing, I believe that we need to see Jewish people as our brothers and sisters, people who are worthy of protection. Maybe there were Christians in the past who didn't step up. We know, certainly in the run-up to World War II, the United States of America had the opportunity to help Jewish people and would not do it. Now we have the opportunity to not make that same mistake.
Jeff Myers:I think another thing is to recognize that there is a political and an economic aspect to every one of these issues. Israel is so inventive that we could I think you can actually say George Gilder makes this case in a book called the Israel Test. Probably 25% of the technological innovation that has allowed America to succeed so enormously and bring blessing and prosperity to all the nations of the earth, 25% of it can be traced directly back to Jewish inventors and entrepreneurs. That there is something about the good of the world that is related to Jewish people thriving being a blessing to the nations of the earth. What do we do with Israel?
Jeff Myers:I don't think we automatically support everything the state of Israel does. I'm an American. I don't support everything the American government does. You have to be discerning about that as well. But overall, recognizing that Israel does have a right to exist and that these claims against it are based in a postmodern settler, colonialist mindset that wants to destroy capitalism, frankly is an important thing for Christians to recognize. So those may be a few bullet points for us to work on.
Scott Allen:Talk a little bit more about propaganda, jeff, how are we seeing that today? And Luke, I think in one of your questions you brought up something that was interesting to me. You talked about the efforts of Doge, elon Musk's Doge, and how much it's kind of uncovering in terms of our own government, kind of propagandizing against israel. Is that what you were seeing, luke, there, or um?
Luke Allen:yeah, that's. That's just what I've heard is, as they're tracking the money, they're realizing that there's a lot of money going towards busing people to protests.
Scott Allen:Essentially on the on the part of our, our government, paying non-profits or whatever it is to do these anti-Israel protests?
Luke Allen:Yeah, they track some of the early pro-Hamas protests right after October 7th. I mean it's complicated because it's through nonprofits, right, that whole stream of money but more or less coming from the government.
Jeff Myers:Yeah, some of it's overt. The United States has been the dominant supporter of a group called UNRWA, which is the, which is in Gaza, presumably to help Gazans thrive, but became intertwined with Hamas in a way that enabled them to do many evil things. In a way that enabled them to do many evil things, that was, you know, america. When Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, they not only withdrew their army, they told all of the Jewish people who lived there get out, and when they wouldn't do it, they bulldozed their homes for 25,000 people because they were like we're out, we're out out homes for 25,000 people because they were like we're out, we're out out. America immediately gave it was a figure was $990 million to Gaza to try to rebuild. Other nations gave money to rebuild. I think the total ended up being something like $35 billion, which is 15 times as much money as it cost to rebuild Europe after World War II.
Scott Allen:Wow, what a perspective.
Jeff Myers:And Hamas had a choice. They were rising, they were able to win an election and then have a coup and kill everybody in the opposition party so that there's no competition. They had a choice. They could have essentially built the Riviera of the Middle East, or they could build tunnels and buy bombs and guns and try to destroy Israel. They made the choice to do the latter because they don't care about the good of the Gazans. They want Israel to be destroyed. So, yes, so what happens in the United States is there are a lot of people who want Israel destroyed. They believe that it has to be destroyed, otherwise we can never assuage our guilt for our subtle or colonialist ways, and so they hire protesters to come in and run these protests, and all you have to do is look at the signs the signs that are professionally printed. They always have a website at the bottom. Look at the website. Who is it? It's going to be some kind of a socialist group that thinks that destroying Israel is key to destroying capitalism in order to have a new socialist utopia. There are other kinds of groups, but there's a very common theme theme.
Jeff Myers:I started to look into this more when I found that there was an actual PR firm called Crowds on Demand that you can hire and they will hire protesters to lead protests and to even attend protests on your behalf, and they can sometimes do it for publicity stunts. But this company the owner, adam Swart, said he had more than a hundred requests from anti-Israel protests, had more than a hundred requests from anti-Israel protests, including, he said, dozens of them that were lucrative. This guy's you know this is a multi-million dollar firm. When he says lucrative, I mean there are big checks being put on the table to hire him. He said he didn't take any of them, but he was offered them.
Jeff Myers:There's a lot of money out there and you know it comes from some people like George Soros. He gave the New York Post found $15 million to these various anti-Israel groups. So you know, when you start to look at the flow of the money like you're talking about Luke, you're going to end up with some really uncomfortable realities. The United States has been playing both sides of the ball when it comes to Israel. States has been playing both sides of the ball when it comes to Israel and it is an ideological conflict in our own country that we have yet to resolve because of a false worldview that's being foisted on us.
Luke Allen:Wow, crowds on demand. Yeah, next time you have a speaking engagement, dad, I'll make sure to get some protesters out.
Scott Allen:Yeah, would you put somebody in there for that? That would be great.
Luke Allen:They pay $46 an hour, luke for somebody to bring a bullhorn, so that's a pretty good deal.
Scott Allen:Well, hey my weekends are full now. Oh boy, what a crazy time and crazy world. But, jeff, thanks for helping us make some sense of it. You just have such an incredible amount of knowledge and wisdom about this. We could continue this talk and maybe we'll be able to do it, but for now, I think we just need to wrap up and let people know how they can tap into some of your knowledge. The book again is called Should Christians Support Israel Seeking a Biblical Worldview in an Impossible Situation. I highly recommend it. Jeff. Where's the best way for people to get their hands on that book or for more information about you or Summit Ministries?
Jeff Myers:Our website is summitorg. You can get all the information there. You can direct any nasty grams to the info at summitorg and then you can get the book at summitorg slash Israel. You can get your copy of it. It's been fun to see this More than 100,000 copies of the book have been printed up by now.
Jeff Myers:And it's because people are ordering them, by the case, to give to their small group to talk about in their church and so forth, and I hope that it's led to a lot of really good discussions. And we want a biblical worldview even on very difficult topics.
Scott Allen:Oh, absolutely, jeff. I'm so grateful for you writing this book and for helping so many people. It's great to hear that the book is doing really well. This is again a topic that isn't fading right now. It's just growing. You know the intensity of this topic, the intensity of the persecution, what's happening on our college campuses, the foment and then, of course, the discussions in the church. You know what do we think? How do we make sense of this? It's just there's such a need for people to speak wisdom into this right now. So thanks for doing that, jeff, and for all your work with Summit Ministries. I highly recommend, if you have young people or any interest at all in just learning, going deeper in your own knowledge of biblical worldview, check out Summit Ministries and the great work that Jeff and his team are doing. Jeff, thanks again for taking time to be with us today. We're super grateful.
Jeff Myers:I'm happy to be with you. I always enjoy these conversations and I would love to come back some other time. We can keep talking about this or other issues.
Scott Allen:We'll definitely take you up on it as you get feedback, let me know what people are thinking because I'm engaging.
Jeff Myers:I've done a lot of Q&A sessions and very difficult Q&As. No media question, no negative media person has ever asked me as hard of a question as some of the Gen Zers have been asking as we discuss this, and that's totally fine with me. I think that's great. We want these difficult topics to be brought to the forefront.
Scott Allen:Absolutely, there's, yeah, those hard questions. Ask the hard questions, but ask with a hunger to know the truth and not just win, win debating points here. We want people who are really hungry for the truth. All right, jeff, thanks, we'll let you go, and I just want to thank Luke. Thank you, dwight, and all of our listeners. Again, thank you for tuning into yet another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance.
Luke Allen:Thank you for joining us for this discussion with Catherine Gallagher from over at Go Strategic. As always, for more information about our guest and to find all of the resources that we mentioned during today's discussion, and more, please visit this episode's landing page, which you'll see linked in the show notes. As a quick heads up, don't miss our next few episodes, because we have some fascinating new and returning guests about to come on the show, including Dr George Barna from the Cultural Research Center, dr Jeff Myers from Summit Ministries and your favorite, at least according to the episode listenership Vishal Mangawati, who is one of the founding minds behind this ministry, disciple Nations Alliance. So, again, stay tuned for those episodes, and an easy way to make sure that you don't miss them is by following this show on Apple Podcast, on Spotify or wherever you're listening right now. Thanks again for listening to today's discussion with Catherine Gallagher and we hope that you're able to join us again next week here on Ideas have Consequences.
