Ideas Have Consequences
Everything that we see around us is the product of ideas, of ideologies, of worldviews. That's where everything starts. Worldviews are not all the same, and the differences matter a lot. How do you judge a tree? By its fruits. How do you judge a worldview? By its physical, tangible, observable fruit. The things it produces. Ideas that are noble and true produce beauty, abundance, and human flourishing. Poisonous ideas produce ugliness. They destroy and dehumanize. It really is that simple. Welcome to Ideas Have Consequences, the podcast of Disciple Nations Alliance, where we prepare followers of Christ to better understand the true ideas that lead to human flourishing while fighting against poisonous ideas that destroy nations. Join us, and prepare your minds for action!
Ideas Have Consequences
Principles Work, But They Need The Cornerstone | Katherine Gallagher’s Take on the ARC
Is it enough to champion biblical principles without knowing the God behind them? What happens when thousands of leaders—Christian and non-Christian alike—gather around biblical principles to reimagine the future of Western civilization? Today, Katherine Gallagher takes us behind the scenes of the rapidly growing Alliance for Responsible Citizenship (ARC) conference in London to find out. Founded by Jordan Peterson and others, ARC set itself up as an alternative to the World Economic Forum; ARC is tapping into a global hunger for truth, meaning, and renewal. But again, can principles alone bring lasting change without the Person behind them?
Main Topics
- Principles vs. Person – Exploring the tension between shared moral values and the need for spiritual transformation through Christ
- Jordan Peterson's emphasis on self-sacrificial servant leadership but lack of open faith in the Sustainer of these virtues
- Biblical principles work whether people acknowledge their divine source or not
- Sustainable transformation requires both good ideas and changed hearts
Cultural or civilizational transformation requires both biblical ideas and transformed hearts; as Katherine put it, "Truth is a person, not just principles."
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of remembering that we actually are dealing with people, not just ideas, and to me that that connects also the thing you're saying, even with the, what you're saying with dr jordan peterson, with others who maybe they connect with the principles, but they're missing the person right. And so I think we, we can do that as believers. Sometimes. Well, we, we, we know these things work and I'm going to give you my, my steps and I'm going to I can destroy you in an apologetics debate, but there's a person that I'm talking to, about this and I just think about that too, and how we relate also to the Lord. There's all these principles, but there's a person that they are connected with.
Scott Allen:Absolutely, and I think we've got to remember that and not just any person the creator of the universe, the one who created you, the creator of the universe, the one who created you and the only proper relationship to that kind of person is a worshipful relationship. It's a bowing of the knee and a complete surrender.
Luke Allen:Hi friends, welcome to. Ideas have Consequences. The podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. Here on this show, we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world to all the nations, but our mission also includes to be the hands and feet of God, to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected this second part of her mission and today most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.
Scott Allen:Well, welcome again to another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. I'm Scott Allen, joined by my son Luke Allen today, and my team member and son Luke Allen, and today we have back with us Catherine Gallagher, who has become now kind of a regular guest on Ideas have Consequences. We're super excited to have you back, catherine. How are you doing?
Katherine Gallagher:I'm doing well, thank you, and delighted to be here again. Just always enjoy our conversations and love what Disciples of Nations Alliance is doing.
Scott Allen:Well, thank you. And for those of you who are new to the podcast and don't know Catherine, catherine, I'll just give a brief introduction. You can fill in the gaps here, but Catherine Gallagher is the CEO of Go Strategic, which is a sister ministry to the Disciple Nations Alliance that we have deep respect for. It was founded by Catherine's father, dennis Peacock. It's a Christian discipleship ministry, training ministry, dedicated to equipping believers to be leaders in the communities where they live, work and serve, whether they are business professionals or parents or pastors, helping them to be all that God wants them to be a salt and light for God's kingdom in our broken world. Catherine has 30 years of experience in leadership and speaking on topics ranging from biblical worldview to organizational stewardship to interpersonal relationships. Catherine's got her bachelor's degree from Azusa Pacific University and she's the author of a couple of books, including a handbook on Christian worldview, and she's also a curriculum development person who's developed curricula for university-level courses. Catherine is joining us from her home, I believe, in Santa Rosa, california. Is that correct?
Katherine Gallagher:Yes, we are located in Santa Rosa, California wine country, just about an hour north of San Francisco.
Scott Allen:Yeah, it's a beautiful place there. Yes, married and two daughters we were just talking about your two daughters who are now college age. So that's exciting. It's an exciting season of life. Yes, well, catherine, we wanted to have you on back today because we understood that you were actually at the ARC conference, which is ARC stands for the Alliance for Responsible Citizenship. It's a international movement network that Jordan Peterson, I think, was central to founding, and it was in. Was it in London, catherine, or where was it?
Katherine Gallagher:Yes, yeah, it was in London again this year, Different venue because it was significantly larger than the first one, which had kind of a. I would say that's good and not bad, but good and different when it's that big. It was literally quadruple the size of what it was the first time.
Katherine Gallagher:And how many people was that then so it was over 4,000 something this time. The first inaugural event was only a thousand, a little over a thousand, which you know. There's the benefits to the differences inside and there's the hindrances sometimes because you know, when it was the smaller one it was easier to naturally overlap and interact with different people. 4,000 people it was at a very large, it was at the main conference center there in London, the Excel, and definitely a different environment to try to find people. My own father was there sometimes and I couldn't find him. It was huge but you know, god's grace you still run into certain people. But it was definitely a. With it being significantly larger, I would say that did shift some of the some of the opportunities for exchanges.
Scott Allen:But yeah, Wow, wow, crazy. I didn't realize it was that big. That's huge.
Katherine Gallagher:Yeah.
Scott Allen:Yeah, so go ahead. Yeah, I want to set the stage a little bit for our listeners. This is something I've been following at a distance. I've not been to the conference. I'm very interested in it. I just was on their website and I pulled this off. Yeah, I want to set the stage a little bit for our listeners. This is something I've been following at a distance. I've not been to the conference. I am very interested in it. I just was on their website and I pulled this off. This is what they say about themselves. The Alliance for Responsible Citizenship, or ARC, is an international movement with a vision for a better world, where empowered citizens take responsibility and work together to bring flourishing and prosperity to their families, communities and nations. That sounds a little bit like what we're trying to do at the DNA. Yeah, exactly.
Luke Allen:Talk to the kids. I think they stole our mission statement here minus a few things here.
Scott Allen:But, anyways, it goes on and it says we are inviting you to join us in developing a better narrative in response to life's most fundamental social, economic, philosophical and cultural questions. We reject the inevitability of decline and instead are seeking solutions which draw on humanity's highest virtues and extraordinary capacity for innovation and ingenuity. That's from the website for the Alliance for Responsible Citizenship and, as I understand it, catherine, you know I do listen pretty frequently to Jordan Peterson's podcast and you know I remember hearing different episodes where he was and I, you know I remember hearing different episodes where he was. I think a big part of the motivation for him forming this was in reaction to the WEF, the World Economic Forum in Davos.
Katherine Gallagher:Switzerland. Is that correct from your understanding? Yes, they basically want to make themselves the conservative answer to that.
Scott Allen:Right Right, conservative answer to that Right right. So it you know. And again, for those of you who aren't familiar with that, that I think most people have some familiarity with that. I was just. I'll just read a little bit. I'm reading this great book by our friend Oz Gennes called Our Civilizational Moment.
Katherine Gallagher:And Oz was there. I got to chat with him.
Scott Allen:He was at the ARC. Yes, I love Oz. How great, how great. Was he a speaker?
Katherine Gallagher:He was. He was a speaker and I ran into him several times and you know he is just, he carries such a sweet, a sweetness to him and a mantle, like that quiet strength. You know, I just I highly respect him. And again, his who he is in person is just, is exactly what you see there and he just is a wonderful, wonderful godly man. I just really appreciate him in the spirit, who he is, me too.
Scott Allen:He's a guy who is a true leader, I think, of the evangelical church in the United States and around the world and, unlike a lot of our leaders who've really struggled and have slipped and fallen. You know Megan Basham's new book, oz has stood strong and that comes across in this fantastic book which I really recommend everyone read. Our Civilizational Moment, the Waning of the West and the War of the Worlds. Oz pulls no punches in this book. He puts his cards on the table and he you know here's what he says about the World Economic Forum, which, by the way, I think it's interesting he calls them the global resetters. I like that. The global resetters, he says they're powerful political elites and high-flying corporate chieftains and are urging the world to move in the same direction. Only a global directorate in one area after another, they say, can save humanity and the planet from war, environmental catastrophe and population crisis and endless pandemics, completing this fateful authoritarian convergence. There are those who argue that only increasing centralized control and regulation by elites can save the West from its mounting conflicts and chaos.
Scott Allen:That's his kind of short description of the World Economic Forum.
Katherine Gallagher:I thought that put it pretty well, actually pretty accurately exactly.
Scott Allen:So they've got a strong it's kind of an elitist set of values. They believe that these powerful elites economic chieftains, as he said, or corporate chieftains and political leaders they really are in a position to provide kind of global leadership. It's a very centralized kind of idea. Global idea doesn't respect nation states, doesn't really respect individuals or individual freedom and you will own nothing and be happy. When I listen to him talk sometimes it reminds me of some kind of combination of Orwell and Huxley right.
Scott Allen:Yeah, definitely. You know we'll make sure you're happy and you know we'll plug you into computers and you can enjoy all of your pornography and, you know, eat all the food or whatever, but we'll control things for the good of everyone else. It's a creepy vision, frankly, and it's very, you know, it's very un-Christian, very secular. It's rooted in, you know clearly. You know deeply secular set of ideas. They don't believe in God. You know clearly here. So here you've got the Ark setting itself out to go in a very different direction, and so talk about that. How would you describe, catherine, what you know based on your experience there? The big picture what is Ark? What do you think is deeply secular set of ideas. They don't believe in God. You know clearly here. So here you've got the Ark setting itself out to go in a very different direction. So talk about that. How would you describe, catherine? You know, based on your experience there, the big picture what is Ark? What do you think is? What are they trying to do here?
Katherine Gallagher:Yeah, I think it's exactly what you said there. They really their heart for it really was to counteract this narrative that is being pushed globally and, unfortunately, has really had really taken center stage, although I think there's been some good shifts in these last few years of other voices coming out to say, hey, wait a minute, this is not accurate and we don't. We aren't what you say we are to. You know, as far as conservatives and Christians and all that, what's interesting that they're doing is it's all based on Judeo-Christian values, but they're not saying you don't have to be a Christian to be a part of it, the Ark which actually, in a broad sense, I think that's a good thing. Let's bring people in. Let's not be scared of people that maybe aren't completely where we are yet, because there's still a lot of people that maybe aren't completely where we are yet, because there's still. You know, a lot that people do have in common that right now, really we need to be looking at. You know uniting forces that way, so they, everything that they're doing really is, though, based on Judeo-Christian values, really opposite to what the description you just read there. You know, again, that the elites know better than you and all these things and looking at the flip side of wait a minute, actually even the common man can understand these things and we can maybe get into this further. But you know the importance of localism, the family, a lot of different things that have been pushed off with this different narrative for how it's addressed. So, yeah, their goal was really to counteract that. The first year it was invitation only, which is part of why it was smaller, and it was neat because they were trying to pull in key voices from all over the world that really felt this way and had some stake in the game here already. And then this next year that's part of why it was so much larger is they did open it up to anyone who had been before could invite other people and it became a more open forum, which is part of why it grew so much in size. And I know that they're planning on doing some more regional events and some different kind of gatherings, because they do recognize, once you get to a certain size, you just can't have the same interactions. But they had, you know, some special dinners that you could go to that were smaller settings to talk about particular subjects. They had different kind of break off things and I think they're going to do more.
Katherine Gallagher:They're really trying to start a movement which I really appreciate and, again, quite frankly, because it is not directly tied to a particular church or denomination, I think it has been easier for them to pull more people together because you know how we are sometimes in the church if it's not our favorite denomination or whatever group it is, sometimes we don't want to be a part of it. So I think the Lord is really using them to call different people together and you know it was a wonderfully diverse group and for me it was wonderful because it literally killed like a dozen birds maybe 20 birds with one stone, because I saw people from all over the world that we work with that it would have taken me dozens of trips to have gotten to all these people and to be able to actually see them all in one place and then to actually also to sometimes connect them to one another. I'm very much a strategic networker, so it was a fun time for me to get to purposely introduce different people to one another and I know that's part of their heart. For these gatherings too is finding other like-minded people that you can connect with that are doing things you know all over the world. So, um, yeah, but it was, it was very inspirational, like it, like it was the first time, I would say they hit on some of the same content, um, and then, you know, did different things.
Katherine Gallagher:They actually had a whole booth section, which is something they didn't have before, like a vendor area where a couple of key groups you know, katie, katie faust, who you've had on before them before us, was one of the main booths there focus on the family, which folks in the family was not at the first one, so that was kind of cool to have them there. They were working on a worldview project, actually filming some things there, and handful of other interesting groups that were there, um, and, yeah, so it's, it was really exciting to see different people come together yeah, who else would you know from our kind of network that you know that where we have common overlap, did you see you mentioned oz genis, um, yeah oz was there and a handful of y whamers.
Katherine Gallagher:For those of us who love y wham got to connect with uh some neat y whamers from all over and um, I'm trying to think about, like I said I mentioned katie obviously was there, uh folks on the family uh colson center was john stone street there yep he was there.
Katherine Gallagher:Uh, john was there and, um, trying to think of other folks that would be vichal was there, wasn't he? Vichal was not at the actual conference he was at something prior. Yeah, yeah, vichal was at the one, the first one he was at the first one yeah, but, um, yeah, I just found out.
Katherine Gallagher:Actually, someone that I met with at this conference, I just found out, vichal is going to be speaking for them. Uh, we'll give a little plug for center for christian concern in the uk. Vichal is going to be speaking for them in oxford in a few weeks. They're a really neat group that basically help fight there. It's a group of lawyers that help fight for conservative uh, for christians and conservative causes in the uk. Um, so I know vishal is going to be with them in a few weeks, but, uh, but yeah, there was.
Katherine Gallagher:There was a handful of, um, you know, religious freedom groups again, groups that were connected with one of our friends out of south africa that does that. There were some political people. I won't drop all the names just because, uh, for safety for some folks. There were some folks that I saw that I absolutely adore and love, that are political figures in Africa that have had their lives threatened. So you have to be able to come out to these kind of events to network and be inspired and connect that way. So, yeah, and there were some folks there too from Family Research Council, heritage Foundation. I mean, you'd know a lot of the groups.
Scott Allen:Would you say. You said that it's not explicitly Christian and you can see that in the way that they describe themselves. There's no mention of God or the church, but would you say that the majority or kind of the leadership are Christians? Yes, majority is.
Katherine Gallagher:Christians and actually it was way more Christ forward, shall we say, this year, much more blatant promotion of the gospel, the scripture. You know Os had been a part of it before, but again he was part of it and others. This year they had more very blatant Christians at the forefront.
Katherine Gallagher:Speaking kind of from the stage Speaking, sharing you know referencing the gospel, referencing scriptures, but then you did still have the folks that are maybe agnostic and or you know just different denominations and sects. You know a lot of Catholic representation just wonderful some Jewish. So a lot of you know commonality there, but definitely more explicitly Christian this year, I would say, and I think that was interesting because there were some folks coming that maybe didn't realize how many Christians there were there. I remember having a couple of conversations with people going huh, like they didn't realize how Christian so many of the people were there.
Katherine Gallagher:But again, I think it's good because the reality is these principles as we know they work, whether you know Jesus or not. And I think it's good because the reality is these principles as we know they work, whether you know Jesus or not. And I think it's just another way that it's salt and light that you know preach the gospel at all times and when necessary, use words. You know St Francis of Assisi. So there was a lot of that going on with the principles. That I think does reach a different set of people.
Scott Allen:Interesting. Yeah, I was thinking about you know. It seems to me that this is just an observation. Love your thoughts on it. You know just that what brings this particular group together, it's not evangelism, you know, it's not church growth or things like that.
Scott Allen:But what it is is it's principles that lead to free and flourishing nations, that are rooted in the biblical story, the biblical narrative, if you will. You know the biblical worldview as Jordan Peterson I'm grateful for him saying this that kind of at the root of every culture you have a story, a big story, a worldview story, you know, and in the Bible that story begins with Genesis 1-1,. In the beginning, god right, he's at the beginning of everything. God created the heavens and the earth, and of course we know that the adversary is a part of this story. We have an antagonist, satan, and we have the fall, and then the drama of the story is this story of redemption, and it climaxes with the coming of Christ and the cross, and then it reaches its consummation at the very end of time. So it's a magnificent story that shapes everything, and if you're not a Christian, you still live by stories right In the beginning was matter that's all there is.
Scott Allen:Your life is nothing but meaningless matter. I mean, it's not a very nice story, or it's not a story that gives much you know, or all there is is power right a. It's not a story that gives much. You know. All or all there is is power, right, and it's just a matter of seeing if you can accrue enough power to force your will on other people, right, maybe for their own good, if you're a member of the wef, but it's still a story.
Scott Allen:Yeah, so jordan peterson's great in in the sense of saying that at the core of all civilizations and cultures is a is a story, a narrative. The question is, is it a true story? And he's kind of reminding us.
Scott Allen:So back to what? So these are people that are saying it's the biblical story that gives rise to certain values the value of the individual, the dignity of the individual, the importance of family, the importance of community and of nations and of just things like sacrifice and love and right. You get all of these things from the biblical story, yes, and they all agree, whether they're Christian or not, on the importance of those things. I guess that's what kind of is the uniting factor, it sounds like, for building healthy cultures.
Katherine Gallagher:Yeah, yeah, it was interesting that actually Dr Jordan really emphasized a ton of biblical narratives and that's actually been part of his whole tour that he's been on globally. Those who wrestle with God and I actually I'd mentioned this to Luke earlier I actually had met with Dr Jordan and his wife when they were on their tour. They came through our town and he was actually practicing his arc speech. He said that to the crowd hey, I'm going to practice my arc speech with you guys and emphasizing some of the biblical narratives and drawing from that and really what he was really after it was interesting was servant leadership. That's the term we would use as servant leadership.
Katherine Gallagher:He didn't actually use those terms, but that's really what his culmination at the end of the event was Are we willing to be servant leaders? And he did draw from bible and and talking about the spies in the land and all different things and it. But it was so interesting because he draws so much from the scripture and he's quite well versed in the scripture, uh, but as you may know and this isn't a criticism, this is just excited for when it happens you know, he still isn't officially a follower of jesus and so it's interesting because he's so steeped in all these biblical stories and promoting them and using them, and and people do relate to them. But it's interesting because he's so steeped in all these biblical stories and promoting them and using them, and people do relate to them. But it's interesting because it's from a slightly different angle, because he hasn't yet had his personal encounter with Jesus. So it's yeah.
Scott Allen:Yeah, no, and I think that probably must carry over into the culture that's there at the Ark right, since he's so central to the whole event.
Katherine Gallagher:right, it's really his vision, yeah, but there are other strong Christians in leadership that are alongside him, that do have personal relationship with Christ.
Scott Allen:And he's good with that of course, yeah, he is.
Katherine Gallagher:I mean he's totally open. He just, you know, it comes down to revelation. It's got to be revelation. You can't force it. So he everything on the level, but it's. You know, it's just a different thing when it becomes a personal, a personal conversion that way.
Katherine Gallagher:But yes, the Philippa Baroness Philippa Stroud, is a very strong believer. Her husband, david, and her are a huge part of what they're doing there and really building out some further networking and things that they're doing connected to this and they're very strong believers. Her husband was actually a pastor, just stepped down from pastoring to go full-time into kind of an offshoot ministry connected to this called the Ark Forums. But they're wonderful people really love the Lord, strong believers. I've interacted with them quite a bit. But yeah, it's interesting again when you have it, it's bringing these principles and the stories and the impact of storytelling really.
Katherine Gallagher:And then you know how does that roll out with people in different spaces of faith but all united in understanding hey, what the world is offering doesn't work. What the Bible offers actually works, whether you like it or not. You know we always think of it as impeding on our freedom and, as we know, the reality is true. Freedom is found in actually being able to follow your conscience and live according to these things. So there's excitement in that too of them. Really, what's being pushed there? To share that To some people who maybe have not heard people think this way, even out of Christian circles. You know we don't always take it to the next step, even in Christian circles, with the reality of how we're meant to transform culture, so I really respect what they're doing there with that.
Scott Allen:Yeah, no, that's for sure. You know, I think that I've often sensed that there's a gap. You have this growing group, represented by ARC, let's say, that are looking at the Bible or Christianity primarily through that lens of what is it from the Bible that gives rise to healthy, flourishing civilizations? You know, they're interested in culture, in building civilizations, in building healthy nations and, like you say, it's something that a lot of evangelicals they don't get to, and sometimes it's by design. I mean, what you know what they get to is individual or personal salvation.
Scott Allen:Right, you know we need to evangelize, we need people to accept Christ as their personal Savior, some basic level of discipleship, usually in spiritual things like Bible reading and church attendance and evangelism, but then it doesn't get beyond that, it doesn't kind of get out to. How does this kind of ripple outwards in terms of impacting society and culture and even nations? Right, which is really kind of why the DNA exists is it's to try to help the church recover that loss, you know, which it didn't always have, that loss. There was a continuum of understanding that salvation and church growth isn't an end to itself, it's a means to a bigger end, which is the blessing of nations really.
Scott Allen:And of course we understand that there is no Christian utopia this side of Christ's return. But we got to work. God wants us to work for the good of our neighbors.
Katherine Gallagher:Exactly.
Scott Allen:So these guys get that, but I feel like gosh, there's kind of a gap between that and a lot of a lot of churches who haven't yet woken up to that. Still, you know.
Katherine Gallagher:Yeah, to that end. To some degree it was more of a kingdom, if we use that term the gospel, the kingdom. It was more of a gospel the kingdom conference and a handful of Christian events. I've been to that that.
Katherine Gallagher:You know that, as you as the name of this podcast, ideas have consequences and that you know we can't just we don't live in a vacuum. We have to be responding to what's happening in the world today and, again, what principles work for that Cause? If we're, if we're too passive which we have been in many ways, you know it, it it gets filled in by other ideas and other things and other, you know, and that's what we've seen happen in so many countries around the world where we've had wonderful gospel of salvation but we haven't had the gospel of the kingdom and we've got a lot of Christian ghettos going on and somebody's got to run for office. So if we're not out there, somebody else is and you know all the ripple effect that way and they really get that which I really appreciate, of just stirring up people to be like, hey, you've got to be involved and whatever realm you're called to, you need to be involved and you need to understand the philosophical underpinnings of what's happening here.
Luke Allen:If you're a Christian who wants to make a difference in healing your culture in this exciting and unique civilizational moment that we live in today, but you're not exactly sure how much you can really do or what you can do. Firstly, you can do a lot more than you know. Every single Christian has a critical role in discipling their family, their community, their city, their culture or even their nation. You are needed.
Luke Allen:And secondly, if you're wondering where you can start or what you can do, for most of us, the most important first step that we can take is to understand the true biblical definitions of some of the most important words that God has entrusted to us, words like faith, truth, love, marriage and human Words that have been drastically and dramatically redefined by the enemies of gospel today, so much so that many of us and our peers Thank you without even knowing it.
Luke Allen:So again, step one if you want to make a difference today is to deeply understand these culture-forming words as defined by God in His Word, and then go one step further by living out these words in how you do your marriage, in how you treat and love humans around you, in how you defend the truth and in how you appreciate beauty. So, again, if you want to make a difference in this civilizational moment, it starts by grounding the most important words you use in the Bible. And to help you do this, scott Allen, my dad, wrote our newest book, an accompanying Bible study that share the title 10 Words to Heal Our Broken World, restoring the true meanings of our most important words, words like freedom, justice, truth, faith, beauty, authority, sex, marriage human and love.
Luke Allen:To wrap up, here's what our guest, Catherine Gallagher, had to say about this book, and I quote whoever controls language and its meanings controls culture. This important book is a wake-up call to return to the true meaning of words and understand their value and impact on culture. End quote.
Scott Allen:Yeah, I do, I do kind of this is, I guess, a question for you, or just I'm kind of musing on this. I think there's a sense where people have looked at these other worldviews postmodern, cultural, marxist and they've really seen just where it leads. You know it leads to cultures where there is no respect for human dignity or for freedom. You know we just see rampant censorship or there is no, there's really no love, there's no basis for reconciliation, it's just kind of different identity groups warring against each other, you know. And so people have seen that the kind of societies that these false worldviews are building in the West are really dark and they don't work. As you said, they just lead us into all sorts of division, hatreds, death. You know really dark stuff.
Scott Allen:And so you've got groups that are saying, gosh, these biblical ideas, they kind of work almost kind of pragmatically, you know. But Darrow, you know, is often fond of saying and I totally agree with him that these ideas or values, or principles, if you will, they're not just free-floating and we don't just lob onto them because they happen to be kind of. And we don't just lob onto them because they happen to be kind of. They work, they actually have to be rooted. All culture, dara would say, is rooted in cult or at the deepest level of worship.
Scott Allen:You know that you're going to worship or serve something, ultimately, you know. And so these Christian beliefs and values that come to us through the scriptures, and they ultimately find their source, their lifeblood, in the living and active worship of the one true God. You know, you have to bow the knee, you have to acknowledge that God is real, he is who he says he is, jesus is his son, and you bow the knee and you worship him, and then that becomes the lifeblood. It seems to me that gives energy to the values and, you know, any kind of obedience in terms of the application of principles that lead to these flourishing cultures and nations and families and stuff. And so I, yeah, I wonder, I just I'm looking at it, kind of observing it from the outside, going is that present or is it just we like to kind of—these false worldviews are breaking down and wrecking things. We want a better story, a better set of values, a better set of principles.
Scott Allen:They come from the Bible. But does it go deeper than that? Does it get down to God himself and bowing the knee to the king and worshiping him? Yeah, I'm just kind of musing and reflecting. I guess I love your thoughts because you were there and I just really, you know what are your thoughts or reactions to what I'm saying, catherine?
Katherine Gallagher:Well, I think, on the broader level, honestly, I think it's a both and I always think there's so many things that are it's a both and because the principles do work and I think about you know, think about some businesses, right, you've seen some businesses that have done incredibly well that are not godly businesses, but if you look at their business practice, they're actually applying godly principles in their business and how they treat their employees, how they actually do transparency in their, in their um, in their books, and the different things that you see there that are actually, um, godly principles are being applied, but it's not necessarily godly people.
Katherine Gallagher:So it's that weird both and I think of. Well, the principles do work and so certain things may just keep going, but at the same time, of course, you've got an individual who doesn't have that, that, that knee bow Christ. So they, at least in their personal level, are not going to have the same flourishing we would say right, and the same perspective, and I would say that would also go to. You know, when hard times come, they may end up who knows where they're going to land, even if they've been doing these good things and these good principles right. So I think there's a both, and there it's wonderful. It also, as I said earlier, can be evangelistic that way too, because you see people, when they start seeing the principles and the ways of god, it does, for many, ping their hearts and can be a means towards salvation that way, and I would definitely say I saw that at the event, with certain things being shared that it's a way it is evangelistic with no I.
Scott Allen:You know, we've seen many people I think of russell brand or I on her.
Scott Allen:See ali, who started at the level of maybe you know, wow, things are really broken and moving in a very dark direction. And, um, you know, what was it that created free societies that respected, you know, the individual and built strong families. What was that, you know? Oh, that was the bible. And uh, wow, you know, look at that and built strong families. What was that, you know? Oh, that was the Bible. And wow, you know, look at that. And then and I think this is honest I think that the honest response to that is at the very center of the Bible is God himself right.
Scott Allen:I mean God, the creator of all, and the only you know really logical response is if you want that world is to bow to the one who created it, right, you know the living God. Yeah, like so. Ayaan Hirsi Ali has done that, and many have done that They've bowed the knee. You know, and I think you're right, jordan Peterson is I. Sometimes I'm a little worried about him because he just he pulls right up to the line and then steps back and you know, he talks about it in some ways that really move him to tears, but other times it's still the story.
Scott Allen:that's just kind of like.
Katherine Gallagher:Do you believe this is the true story? You?
Scott Allen:know, or is this just a story that happens to create a healthy civilization, you know right?
Katherine Gallagher:Well, you know it comes down to, on that individual side, just the difference If you don't have that personal revelation, it's all. It's all good things, but it doesn't if it doesn't actually change your heart. And I know we've seen this in and again. This isn't a criticism of anybody, this is just the reality. We've seen it in life with incredible Christian leaders who at some point end up stumbling, and I'm not talking about sin, but just in the sense of they get disillusioned and I go at some point there was not that personal hook in their heart that was I'm a slave to Christ, no matter what I mean. I remember my own life hitting a couple really tough periods of my life where I knew the principles and there's a level you do the principles and the principles work. But also we live in a fallen world. So there's times where it appears that the principles aren't working quote unquote because these bad, bad things happen, but it's it's because it's a fallen world and people have free will, right.
Scott Allen:And, at the end of the day, we don't worship principles. You know we worship.
Katherine Gallagher:He's a real person, he is the way, the truth and the life. Truth is a person and and that's what we have to have have the hook in our hearts. Otherwise, all of us could be subject to to, to straying or being disillusioned or what have you? And and that's really what it comes down to, right?
Scott Allen:Yeah, and even Jordan Peterson of late, like you say he's saying. You know, when I look at the world um that the worldview of, say, your average you know, participant in in WEF, the World Economic Forum, or the people that attend that you know, all I see is a denial of absolute truth, right?
Scott Allen:So, truth is, whatever I want it to be. And power, right. So if you can get the power financially, politically, to impose your will on others, you'll do that. And he's saying that's that I don't want to live in that kind of world, right.
Katherine Gallagher:So I want to live in a world where it's all good things, but it doesn't if it doesn't actually change your heart, and I know we've seen this in and again. This isn't a criticism of anybody, this is just the reality. We've seen it in life with incredible Christian leaders who at some point end up stumbling, and I'm not talking about sin, but just in the sense of they get disillusioned and I go with some point. There was not that personal hook in their heart that was I'm a slave to Christ, no matter what I mean. I remember my own life hitting a couple really tough periods of my life where I knew the principles and there's a level you do the principle, I knew the principles, and there's a level you do the principles and the principles work. But also we live in a fallen world, so there's times where it appears that the principles aren't working quote unquote because these bad things happen, but it's because it's a fallen world and people have free will, right.
Scott Allen:Yeah, and at the end of the day, we don't worship principles, right, we worship. He's a real person, he is the way the truth and the life.
Katherine Gallagher:Truth is a person. That's right and that's what we have to have the hook in our hearts. Otherwise, all of us could be subject to straying or being disillusioned or what have you. And that's really what it comes down to right.
Scott Allen:Yeah, and even Jordan Peterson of late, like you say he's saying. You know, even Jordan Peterson of late, like you say he's saying. You know, when I look at the world that the worldview of, say, your average you know, participant in WEF, the World Economic Forum, or the people that attend that you know, all I see is a denial of absolute truth. Right.
Scott Allen:So, truth is, whatever I want it to be, and power right. So if you can get the power financially, politically, to impose your will on others, you'll do that. And he's saying I don't want, don't want to live in that kind of world. So I want to live in a world where I see this, this, you know, and I've heard him speak about this to this dynamic of servant, like you say, servant leadership, or just this ability of somebody to sacrifice for the good of another right which runs right through the biblical narrative, of course, the life of Jesus himself.
Scott Allen:But you know, to me, again, just that alone, just this idea of self-sacrificing, it has a deeper root. Right, it's rooted in love, you know, agape, which is rooted in God's very character. Right, you know you have to keep pushing back these things. They're good, Like you need a society where people are willing to sacrifice for the good of another, especially authorities, for the good of those that are under their authority. He's right, and thank God. We live in a world where, that's true, it's not just all power and dominion, even though that's real in a fallen world, you know. But but it's, you know, it's like that. You only get that if God is real, and God is a God of love and at his very core is agape.
Katherine Gallagher:Right.
Scott Allen:That's where that comes from.
Katherine Gallagher:Right, and it goes back to who we really believe God is and the nature of God. We talked about this on the other podcast, actually from my little worldview book, because it talks about that a bit of getting into. It's not just that you believe in God, but what kind of God do you believe in and who is this God and what does he? You know, what is he like, and that that really does. That really does matter. But again, I'm grateful that they're opening up these conversations because they are. It is reaching some people that I don't know would have been reached in the, you know might not have been reached in a different circumstance, absolutely, and I, I, I agree with that.
Scott Allen:I think it's exciting when people come to the point of going you know freedom, we wouldn't even have freedom or concepts like objective truth without the Bible. That's pretty exciting, right? Well, some people don't realize they're actually biblical concepts.
Katherine Gallagher:That's what's crazy. The accusation of so many like you know that just understand this is all rooted here. I mean I love that's where you get excited, you know, get into, obviously the scripture and the history and hermeneutics and I mean it all has its proof, that's there. But again, of course, ultimately we've still got to have the revelation of the Holy Spirit.
Scott Allen:But I've often had this thought as I think about Ark. I think you know the one thing that the evangelical church in the West gets is that you need a living and vital relationship with Jesus Christ, and they've made the gospel very. I've often had this thought as I think about Ark. I think you know the one thing that the evangelical church in the West gets is that you need a living and vital relationship with Jesus Christ, and they've made the gospel very central, which is good, right. So you need to accept. You know that God exists, that you're a sinner and apart from Christ. You know you will be eternally separated from God, you know. So they've kept that living and vital relationship very central. Now again, ark isn't coming at it from that angle. They're coming at it from these biblical principles. This biblical narrative creates a really healthy and flourishing civilization, and that's the part that the evangelical church kind of forgotten. So, in other words, they both have something that they kind of need.
Scott Allen:It seems like, if you could get these two groups together and, like you're saying, maybe they are there together at the conference, that could be pretty powerful. Like the Ark people could remind evangelicals that, hey, we have something that is actually that goes beyond personal salvation and creates healthy, thriving nations. Like we've kind of forgotten that we need to disciple Christians to live out those principles and to be faithful in building healthy families and civilizations. That's part of our faith. Yes, the other side, the evangelicals, could remind the arch people that, yeah, but all those things that are going to create healthy, flourishing civilizations have to be rooted in a regenerated heart and a worship of the living God, yeah.
Luke Allen:Yeah, that's. I mean, I just think of you know, worship the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. Your heart needs to be invested. I just think of you know, worship the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. Your, I just think of you know, worship the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. Your heart needs to be invested. You need to love God, because God loves you and he wants to be in a loving relationship with you, but also with your mind. You know this should intellectually make sense to us.
Luke Allen:We can chase after the truth. We have the ability to do that. We can wrestle with the truth. I think sometimes I've heard this last week as a critique of people in the christian worldview space is they become too intellectual. I don't know if I totally agreed with this, but it's too much the you know principles and practices and policies and that that if you do this, your, your community, will flourish. Bing bang, bow right. Yes, sometimes you know, like in Proverbs, there's wisdom there, god's ways work. Yes, but we also need to just love God and be in that relationship with him, just the phileo love.
Luke Allen:Or is that the right one? The phileo love.
Luke Allen:Or is that the right one? Yeah, with God. So yeah, it's both. And um, you guys probably heard this quote from jordan peterson too, but he, he once said um, when talking about the bible, it's not that the bible is true, it's that the bible is the prerequisite of the manifestation of truth, which makes it far more true than just truth. So he says it, you know, but does he believe it? Has he become it? Does he love it? You know, and and and that's kind of where I'm questioning, um, oz Guinness once. Oz Guinness once said, when talking about the truth, either we can form our desires to the truth or we can form the truth to our desires. Um, and I, I hear a lot of these people talking. They remind me of Thomas Paine or Thomas Jefferson, who understood that God's ways for government, or for human life, or what freedom is they work?
Scott Allen:But I don't know that they and are essential, like you really need those ideas if you're going to have a free society. Yeah, they understood that.
Luke Allen:Yeah, but I don't know if they can form their desires to the truth yet, no, exactly. Bow the knee. I appreciate what. Yeah, they understood that. Yeah, but I don't know if they can form their desires to the truth yet Exactly.
Katherine Gallagher:I appreciate what you bring up there, though I think is interesting because it connects, kind of these two different things you're talking about with some of those in the apologetic space of a strong emphasis of the ideas and the principles, and to me that also, which, again, that's good, we want to know those things, that's good, we want to know those things. But to me it connects to, though, sometimes, that lack of heart. To me it connects to, though, sometimes, that lack of heart of remembering that we actually are dealing with people, not just ideas, and to me that that connects also the thing you're saying, even with the what you're saying with Dr Jordan Peterson, with others who maybe they connect with the principles, but they're missing the person, right. And so I think we can do that as believers sometimes, where we, we, we know these things work and I'm going to give you my, my steps and I'm going to.
Katherine Gallagher:I can destroy you in an apologetics debate, but but, but there's a person that I'm talking to, about this, and I just think about that too, and how we relate also to the Lord. There's all these principles, but there's a person that they are connected with.
Scott Allen:Absolutely, and I think we've got to remember that and not just any person the creator of the universe, the one who created you, and the only proper relationship to that kind of person is is is a worshipful relationship. It's a bowing of the knee and a and a complete surrender of the knee and a complete surrender, you know yes.
Katherine Gallagher:Yeah, and likewise or you know, and likewise, or maybe not likewise, but and to that end you know we have, you know, love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and then love your neighbor as yourself. We've got to remember that too when we're engaging and we're talking about other people, when we're engaging apologetics, when we're having, you know, some of those discussions that there is still a person there that we're engaging with that is a child of God, that is. You know that it was created in his image and so it's interesting because I think again, there's that bull's-hand, I guess, on these things.
Scott Allen:But it comes out, yeah, the person of Christ. But it comes out, yeah, the person of Christ, the non-believer. The person of Christ and people, yeah, catherine, who's found the goodness of the biblical principles. Let's say, you know human dignity or whatever it is. Or you know there is an objective truth of things. You can't just be a man or a woman at will. You know there's an objective truth to these things. You know they're on a journey, right? I mean, that's the work of the Holy Spirit in their life, right? You don't move in the direction of truth without the work of the and the help of the Holy Spirit. So I really agree with that.
Katherine Gallagher:Yeah, yeah, and that that's a quote I know you guys have heard me say before other times, but I don't know who it's attributed to. But for other times, but I don't know who it's attributed to, but you know, anything you can be argued into, you can be argued out of. So again, it's like it's this balance, because we want these principles are good, they work, we want people to know them, but ultimately, again, you know, it comes down to conviction, not just convincing.
Luke Allen:And so remembering that with people, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, this is a little off track, but I heard once that the two, the two greatest motivating factors for any human is either fear that's probably the most or love, and um, ideally it's love. Um, what I'm hearing for a lot of these people coming out of arc is it's a little, a little bit fearful, a little reactionary.
Scott Allen:It's a little bit the world's crumbling well, or just fearful of the wef, you know, in the direction that it's taking the world right.
Luke Allen:Yeah, yeah I mean, there's a lot to be fearful of right now that's right but I want to say, I want to say in response to that like sure, I totally agree, I my eyes are wide open, but, um, is there something that we can run towards and not just something we can run away here? Is there love that we can run towards?
Luke Allen:uh, and that's the kind of motivating, the motivating factor that actually is sustainable, actually can write us somewhere right, because if you just run away from something, that reactionary kind of pendulum swing we've seen throughout history, not ideal. Um, I do think this group is going in the right direction, from from what I hear from. I listened to a lot of the talks at the conference and um, just uh, peterson's opening speech. I was listening to the conference and um, just uh, peterson's opening speech. I was listening to that this morning and he essentially boils the whole opening speech. I was listening to that this morning and he essentially boils the whole, like he's what is he he?
Luke Allen:uses always such fancy language, like the motivating driving factor that you know inhabits us or something, um, and he just boiled it down to, like you were saying, the servant leadership, um, spirit of sacrifice, spirit of sacrifice and what that looks like, and that is that's spot on. You know, that's, that's what we need to be pushing towards and that's been his real call to arms since the beginning. Is calling young men to a spirit of sacrifice, self-sacrifice, voluntary self-sacrifice for the good of another.
Scott Allen:Which is agape love, right. When I hear him speak that way, I'm like you're completely correct, but where does that come from? When I hear him speak that way, I'm like you're completely correct, but where does that come from? You know again this.
Scott Allen:you don't just generate a spirit of self-sacrifice, especially in a fallen world, like it's just not natural To me. It comes from one place, and one place only. It comes from the very heart of God himself who does that, and he does that for us right. And so it is rooted in that love. You know, for God so loved the world, for God so loved you, Catherine, that he laid down his life for you, that gives me some motivation to follow in his footsteps.
Scott Allen:You see what I'm saying, Not just I like that idea of self-sacrifice for the good of others, like that's really important for a healthy society. So I'm going to sacrifice myself for the good of others, okay, but we do see people do it, though that don't know the Lord, but again, I think it's not necessarily sustainable, I think there's maybe the Lord working through them.
Katherine Gallagher:You know the Lord has used people that way before, so the Lord working through them or you know wherever they're in their journey, but we know it's not sustainable if you don't have Christ. So that's again the importance there. But I do want to say in particular about Dr Jordan. Again, you know, because I've met him now several times, he really is a man of from everything I've seen, a real man of integrity, he is a seeker and just hey, let's pray for him guys, because I just we all know the difference of you can understand all these things, and then the difference of when you actually meet the person of Jesus, what that does, and I'm just excited for him when he does, because it's you know, I just am so grateful for him, I'm so grateful for his voice.
Katherine Gallagher:Yeah, he really is being used of the Lord, for sure.
Scott Allen:Oh yeah, no, it's, it's, it's really it's very powerful. You know, he, he sees with clear eyes, the, the, the beauty and the importance of, of this true biblical story. You know so.
Katherine Gallagher:And his wife is lovely. I was telling Luke too. You know she's had a whole. She's Catholic and she had a whole renaissance in her faith from really a near-death experience that she shared about in some of her podcasts and things where a very, very serious diagnosis was supposed to, you know, was given months to live, and you know her renaissance of faith really with the coming to the Lord again. And you know her renaissance of faith really with the coming to the Lord again. I think I can't remember when she was younger if she'd known him, but she's had a very powerful conversion there and she's on her own journey that way too. And I got to actually be on her podcast. She asked me to film with her when I was in London, so I'm looking forward to it and she gave me carte blanche to talk about the ministry and talk about worldview and all those things and so that's exciting, yeah it was really neat.
Katherine Gallagher:And she actually she and Dr Jordan both have my book. It's funny the podcast. She was like I'm sorry I haven't had a chance to read it yet. I'm like, well, whenever you can. Oh, that's so neat. But they're really a neat. They're a neat couple. The Lord is totally using them. They're very genuine, very integrous and, um yeah, so it's going to be interesting to see continue to see what the lord does, and, of course, they're surrounded by a lot of believers.
Scott Allen:So well, yeah, I noticed that they have their board of advisors or trustees or something and, like you say, katie faust is on that board. I just learned that recently she's a one on fire born believing lady, I'll tell you, who doesn't?
Katherine Gallagher:She's a feisty one. I love Katie. No, me too.
Scott Allen:But she's, she's, she's a really you know, she's a true, genuine believer in Jesus. So yeah. Anyways, luke, what other questions do you have? It's just Catherine, thanks. It's for Luke and I. We've been so excited to just talk with you because we've kind of seen this from the outside. But you had that wonderful experience of being on the inside with this a couple times now, so we're excited. I'm excited about what I'm seeing here, you know and just kind of what's God doing? So it's great to talk with you.
Luke Allen:Yeah, it is exciting. I just wanted to circle back to what you were saying earlier, dad, about how we all live, in stories, um, or beliefs, or we all have a way of life you know, there's multiple ways to describe this.
Scott Allen:But a worldview, you know, but a story, I think. But they actually are stories, if you will. They are in the sense that there's characters and there's a plot and you know, they've got the elements of stories, you know where do we start, where are we going?
Luke Allen:yeah, yeah it's yeah, um, and I, as far as I know from this conference and this movement, they're trying to start. They're trying to paint the picture for a better story for Western civilization, either one that grounds it back to its roots, more so, or just a better one for the future era seems like it's coming to a wrap, you know, and post-modernism obviously came on the heels of modernism and then that on the heels of pre-modernism and that's pretty much all of history since christ summed up in those three big historic time periods. If post-modernism is wrapping up, what's next? What is the better story? You know what, what, what might be, uh, you know, on the very verge of um, it's an exciting thought. I've heard a lot of great thoughts coming out of the ARC conference and out of those speakers. Any thoughts from you? What were you hearing? What are your thoughts? As Christians, we obviously know the better story. God's given it to us very clearly in scriptures. So how can we convey that in this, this, uh, this moment?
Katherine Gallagher:I think it was definitely hopeful just seeing more and again honestly going back to our kind of our kingdom conversation earlier of just seeing the broader church community engaging in really the culture on another level that it has to happen, and I think I saw a lot of people uh, or being encouraged that it's being pushed to the forefront that way.
Katherine Gallagher:That again and we know this, but you know, church isn't just for Sunday morning that these principles are run throughout society. They actually help government function better. They actually help education, trade, tariffs, all the different things actually apply to these biblical principles. So I saw a lot of hope that way. I'll say too, on a kind of a fun personal side and I've heard this from others you know there were a lot of people there that I ran into or talk with that you know the administrative workforce founded by my father right, they knew my dad 20 years ago, 30 years ago, and just seeing some of the relational ties, the shared spiritual roots that are still there, I feel like the Lord has been kind of stirring up the shared spiritual roots that are still there. I feel like the Lord has been kind of stirring up, stirring up the roots that way and I've had that happen repeatedly in different circles that I didn't even know had connection to one another, some of the shared spiritual roots, and so that's exciting again with people that I there was quite a few people there I met that I didn't realize were friend of friends you know, or knew my father 20 years ago, or knew you know whoever you know 10 years ago, and so seeing, I feel like the Lord has been knitting, knitting more hearts and knitting more organizations together. We've definitely been divided, maybe not even purposely, I think you know enemies allowed it, the spirit of the age, everything's going on, busyness, all those things, but definitely seeing a more of a heart for collaboration and camaraderie at the event, that I really, really appreciated and again, I think that was one of their goals. So that's encouraging and I would encourage people with that camaraderie of people really coming together and seeing kind of shaking the dust off in some areas and realizing, hey, there's still more here, let's engage. So that's definitely encouraging and that's what I would encourage listeners to think of too.
Katherine Gallagher:Of you know, where have you, where have you sown in and where does where does God want you to continue to sow or to bring back things, maybe, that you used to used to do? We had. We had one actually. Just recently we had a student come back around, because we have our online schools and cohorts Someone who had done our courses 20 years ago and dropped out and said God told me to go back to my roots. And so now, 20 years later, he re-enrolled in one of our courses. And I say that just to say I think that's engaged, so that's definitely encouraging and that's what I would encourage listeners to think of too of you know, where have you, where have you sown in? Um, and where does where? Does God want you to continue to sow or to bring back things, maybe, that you used to used to do? We had, we had one actually. Uh, just recently we had a student come back around, cause we have our our online schools and cohorts someone who had done our courses 20 years ago and dropped out and said God told me to go back to my roots, and so now, 20 years later, he re-enrolled in one of our courses.
Katherine Gallagher:And I say that just to say I think that's happening in a lot of places, and not just our ministries other ministries, other places where it's like we're getting called back to those roots or things that we've sewn into, or people that we knew 10 years ago, and again I saw this at ARC like people who hadn't talked for 20 years saw each other again at ARC and just where, where's God in that? Cause? You know he's a God of community, he's a God of roots, you know our foundations. So I find that exciting and I encourage all of our listeners to think that way too, cause I'm just seeing that across the board, not just at ARC but at other places where I mean I keep having divine appointment conversations with people that it turns out again we knew one another 10 years ago, or this person or that person. I just think God's moving in that way and that's exciting because he's a God of relationship. You know, we always say God builds relationally and getting those connections and then, you know, going into the ancient foundations, right.
Katherine Gallagher:Yeah yeah, no.
Scott Allen:I feel like Aslan's on the prowl right now I do feel like there's something's happening, and it's kind of unexpected in the sense that I go back, you know, to 2020, the end of COVID and it seemed like it was such a dark time, you know, and the kind of the forces of this cultural Marxist idea, the World Economic Forum there was just an ascendancy to all that and almost a sense of like inevitability, you know, like this is just what you know. And where's the church? The church isn't speaking out. You know, the leaders are kind of compromised.
Scott Allen:And then, lo and behold, you get these people that are even outside the church, like Jordan Peterson, taking stands, courageous stands against that, you know, standing up for free speech and the dignity of the individual, and other people starting to follow him. And now you've got ARC, you know, and this is this combination of Christians, born-again Christians as well as people that are looking for that story that makes sense of human dignity and freedom and family and these kinds of things. And so, yeah, I didn't expect any of that you know, and here we are.
Katherine Gallagher:You know it's happening.
Scott Allen:So, yeah, so I think I guess what let's all be praying and available to see how God wants to be using us right now, in this moment, right, and I think too, like you were saying, Catherine, welcoming and gracious to people that are still kind of on a journey of seeking God's working.
Scott Allen:God is working in their lives, and we have things to learn too. This is the thing I think a lot of evangelicals can learn a lot from them. They're reminding us that what the Bible brings, this story, the principles, the truths, the definitions. That's my new book, right, the Ten Words book, the definitions of words like human and authority, and marriage and sex.
Scott Allen:These build flourishing cultures right, and when we live them out, we have to be reminded of that we kind of forgot that the evangelical church is kind of stuck in this cubbyhole of eschatology, it's like yeah. Jesus is coming back. That's all I'm interested in. I don't care what happens to this world, and the sooner he comes back the better you know, and I'm like oh no, I mean, he is coming back.
Scott Allen:right, he is coming back, but but you know, whether he comes back tomorrow or, you know, in 10 years or a hundred years we have to be faithfully living out the truth and building healthy cultures now right Like that's.
Katherine Gallagher:That's called obedience.
Scott Allen:Yeah, exactly so well, to that end. Thank you, Catherine, for all that you guys are doing at Go Strategic to bring that about, you know, and just the training that you offer. Do you want to say anything about that? You mentioned your cohorts and your training, and why don't you go ahead and talk a little bit about that and how people can access that?
Katherine Gallagher:Yeah, thank you. Yeah, we do. We have three schools. I hesitate to use the term school because I feel like it doesn't really encapsulate what it is, but it's the closest to it. But it's basically a small group, a cohort that you join for 18 months to two years. So it is a big. It's a big buy-in, but it is really an incredible opportunity to connect with people from all over the world.
Katherine Gallagher:In these online cohorts. They meet twice a month and you go through curriculum that we have and we have some of our required reading will be familiar to the listeners. We have a few of Darrell Miller's books and Landa Cope and, of course, we're definitely recommending Scott's books. But we have a core curriculum and then we have additional reading and we dive into three areas. We have one on worldview and leadership called the School of Strategic Living, one on business economics called the School of Business Leadership and our latest one around public policy and community development called the School of Kingdom Citizenship.
Katherine Gallagher:And the School of Kingdom Citizenship really connects to what we're just talking about here again of the reality that we're dual citizens. You know, we are citizens of heaven, but we are still citizens on earth and we have a calling to really make a difference here in every jurisdiction and sphere. So three online courses you can check them out at gostrategicorg slash schools and they're a wonderful opportunity for training and meeting with others really around the world. And then we provide other ongoing connections for our alumni and really it's the way that we've I've other ongoing connections for our alumni and really it's the way that we've met so many incredible people through those courses. It's a, it's a real gift.
Scott Allen:So, thank you, that's great. Well, check it out. Go strategic dot org and see all that this organization has to offer. And, catherine, thank you for your leadership. You're doing such a great job. I'm impressed with just the way that you are. You are a very intentional networker and I appreciate that I love to do that.
Katherine Gallagher:Yes, it's wonderful to connect the people to one another. So, yeah, my pleasure. Thank you for having me very much.
Scott Allen:Always a joy to be with you both, and again, thank you for putting us in the room a little bit with the ARC conference and giving us your perspectives on that. That's been really helpful and, yeah, we really appreciate that. Luke any final thoughts from you as we wrap up.
Luke Allen:No, I love the call to collaboration and working together, and a house divided against itself can't stand. So as a church, we should seek for common. We should, uh, seek for, yeah, common goals right now.
Katherine Gallagher:That's great Amen.
Scott Allen:All right. Well, catherine, thanks again for being with us today and um, lord bless you and your ministry. And um uh, to all of our listeners who are faithfully tuning into this podcast. We are appreciative for you. Um, continue to let other people that you know know about the podcast. Share it with their friends. That helps us. And again, thank you for listening to another episode of Ideas have Consequences, the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance.
Luke Allen:Thank you for joining us for this discussion with Catherine Gallagher from over at Go Strategic. As always, for more information about our guest and to find all of the resources that we mentioned during today's discussion, and more, please visit this episode's landing page, which you'll see linked in the show notes. As a quick heads up, don't miss our next few episodes, because we have some fascinating new and returning guests about to come on the show, including Dr George Barna from the Cultural Research Center, dr Jeff Myers from Summit Ministries and your favorite, at least according to the episode listenership Vishal Mangawati, who was one of the founding minds behind this ministry, disciple Nations Alliance. So again, stay tuned for those episodes. An easy way to make sure that you don't miss them is by following this show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify or wherever you're listening right now. Thanks again for listening to today's discussion with Katherine Gallagher and we hope that you're able to join us again next week here on Ideas have Consequences. Thank you.
