Ideas Have Consequences

Can a City be Discipled? | Lance Cashion

• Disciple Nations Alliance • Season 2 • Episode 60

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Christianity is more than personal faith—it’s the catalyst for cultural healing in your city. Will you step into that calling? Join us as we talk with Lance Cashion, founder of the Forge Room Foundation, about his journey through brokenness to a life fully surrendered to God’s plan—not just for himself, but for his work, city, and culture. We dive into faith’s role beyond salvation, tackling real-world issues like human trafficking, identity, and societal transformation. Lance shares how believers can navigate today’s cultural chaos with clarity and purpose. From Fort Worth to the broader world, we discuss why local initiatives often create the greatest impact. Tune in and discover how a biblical worldview can empower you to engage, influence, and lead lasting change.

Lance Cashion:

Particularly in the evangelical church, there's been this privatization of the faith that it's deeply personal and private, it's between me and Jesus, it's my personal salvation, it's what I believe, and then, okay, so the consequences of that are you get out and get people saved, and then that's, and you wait for Jesus to come back. But then there's this huge swath of life that what do you do in the meantime? I don't think most people have an understanding of being a Christian as a worldview, as a life system. They see it as this is a decision I made. This is what I do in response to that decision say a prayer, I'm saved, and then I go to church and try to be a good person. Those are parts, but they're not the totality of the Christian life.

Luke Allen:

Hi friends, welcome to Ideas have Consequences. The podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. Here on this show we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world, to all the nations, but our mission also includes to be the hands and feet of God, to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected this second part of her mission and today most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.

Scott Allen:

Well, welcome again everyone to another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. I'm Scott Allen, I'm president of the DNA, joined by my friends and co-workers Dwight Vogt, luke Allen, and today we are thrilled to have with us a very special guest, lance Cashin. Did I get your last name correct there, lance?

Lance Cashion:

Yes, you got it, Great work.

Scott Allen:

Okay, lance, it's so great to have you with us today. I want to give our listeners just a flavor. You've got such an incredibly diverse bio. Let me just introduce you briefly, and then I would love to have you fill in blanks and just share a little bit more of your story. But, lance, you're joining us from Fort Worth, texas, I believe, and that is where you were born and raised, is that correct?

Lance Cashion:

Yes, sir, a native of Fort Worth, texas.

Scott Allen:

A Texan, that's right, that's great. Lance is the founder and the CEO of the Forge Room Foundation. Before that, he served as a local outreach pastor at a church in Fort Worth and his work experience goes far beyond that. He also was owner of a private wealth management firm, had extensive work in the insurance field and if that wasn't enough, he apparently Lance I'd love to hear more about this has a keen interest in music and has enjoyed a successful career in the electronic music industry as an artist, label owner, radio host and event promoter. So that's a real diverse set of interests there, lance. That's really exciting.

Scott Allen:

Lance, we connected because we share a passion for discipling nations. Biblical worldview, the kingdom of God and just this kind of understanding of the mission of the church is one that should be involved in a deep Christian influence on our culture. He's passionate about helping fellow Christians think clearly and articulately about biblical worldview and fulfill their mission to serve others and share the gospel of the kingdom. He's a Colson Fellow that would be the Colson Center on Biblical Worldview and our good friend, john Stonestreet. He was awarded the Charles W Colson Medal in May of 2022 for his pioneering work in launching the Colson Fellows Program at his local church. That's really exciting.

Scott Allen:

Lance is a real thinker, a writer, a podcaster. Speaks on a wide range of topics including culture, worldview, public theology, apologetics, and then is very active in the area of combating human trafficking, pro-life issues, biblical leadership. That's a lot, lance. Just exciting to see how God's been working through your life. Tell us a little bit about who you are, kind of where you came from and how you got into all of this kind of wide variety of different vocations, if you would.

Lance Cashion:

Yes, and thank you guys so much for having me as a guest. I've been listening to your podcast and enjoying it and also enjoying your social media presence, what you guys have been posting and some of the incredible illustrations and the cartoon type of stuff as well. Those animations are really cool. So thank you, and I guess I've kind of always been wired this way of multiple interests. I guess ADHD dyslexia have been helpful in that Some people see them as challenges. I see them as gifts from God that I enjoy a wide variety of things. I love God's world, I love the people of God's world and I love the people of my community. But really from a young age I just really enjoyed a wide variety of interests, whether it was building with Legos or listening to music or, you know, beating the drums to my parents. You know displeasure, you know as a young lad, but really just enjoyed art.

Lance Cashion:

I struggled in school but I loved learning. So once I was able to find and I had some teachers that understood that I was going to struggle and they taught me how to read and enjoy reading, I used to hate it, like many, and then learn to learn, essentially that I'd be a little bit different and that was okay, that I had some gifts that God had given me that I could use in a different way to enjoy learning. But I was, like I said, I'm from Fort Worth. I was born and raised here, essentially came from a kind of a broken family. My parents got divorced when I was three years old. My father was a very successful businessman. I never went hungry. I always had clothing, good school, so as well provided for.

Lance Cashion:

Where he struggled was being a father and he didn't have the upbringing of that father role model and so he struggled, you know, raising me and with my mom.

Lance Cashion:

When they got divorced, I went to live with my mother and so I lived in this kind of broken family structure and though it was difficult looking back, I didn't know I just thought that this is what life was. Most of my other friends, their families, were intact. I went to a little Episcopal school here in Fort Worth called All Saints and during the times of struggle, when probably in first grade, my mom was taking care of me and I would stay with her and see my dad on every other weekend or so. I think that's how it worked out and my mom worked full time and God sent this little missionary lady into our lives by the name of Janie Ellis, and my mom saw her caring for some children on a playground where the bus dropped me off and my mom couldn't get off work in time to pick me up, and so she asked this lady, mrs Ellis, if she would care for me. And that was God's missionary into our lives.

Lance Cashion:

And she was with me and she became my godmother Went to Episcopal Church that was attached to this school and I was at church with her on Sundays and she was evangelical, so she was sharing the gospel with me, praying for me constantly.

Lance Cashion:

And when my mom would be away at work or be out at night or whatever. Mrs Ellis would come, stay with me and this was really until I was in eighth grade and she taught me about Jesus, prayed for me, and then in eighth grade she kind of put it to me she was like you need to make a decision. And I did and was baptized at All Saints, a little church, and that was incredible. But I ended up going away to boarding school. When I was right after eighth grade I had three friends three other friends that we were kind of troublemakers, I flew under their radar. Other friends that we were kind of troublemakers, I flew under their radar. The three of them ended up getting into some trouble over the summer and in the beginning weeks of school and I'd switched to a public school for high school here in Fort Worth and my parents came together about the second week of school and saw that there was writing on the wall that there could be trouble for me and said look, you can't stay here. You can either pick a boarding school or go to military school. And so I chose to go to boarding school in Connecticut and a week later I was in Connecticut with a suitcase, applying for the following year.

Lance Cashion:

Later I was in Connecticut with a suitcase applying for the following year, my sophomore year, because there was no space. But then one bed opened up. They needed a wrestler, a 103 wrestler. Their 103 wrestler went to another school. So one bed opened up in the freshman dorm and they asked me if I wanted to go to school at Avon and I said I looked at my parents, my dad and my stepmother were there and they were like you want to go to school here? And I said I looked at my parents, my dad and my stepmother were there and they were like you want to go to school here? And I was like, yeah, I guess. So I knew that I needed to be out of Fort Worth, like deep down.

Lance Cashion:

And so I went to boarding school in Connecticut and went through there, but there was no discipleship happening. My path was ended up being very selfish, going away from God and the things of God. Had my fire insurance is what I felt and then ended up in college in Florida because I was tired of the cold and I was a swimmer, so I was going to swim in Florida and went to Rollins College. And again that path just kept getting darker and further away from the things of God. And while I was there got involved in alcohol, drugs, girls and had a girlfriend there and I think it was my junior year. She got pregnant and had an abort. We had an abortion and that was, at the time, it any sense of what I was doing, what I was really doing. And so after that, you know, life kind of went on. But then it began to spiral out of control, getting deeper into drugs and alcohol and seeking worldly pleasure, until several years later that all came to a screeching halt one morning when I considered taking my own life. The weight of sin had just ended and the voice of the enemy telling me that it would be just a lot easier if you ended this, lance, and I mean, it was one morning I'll never forget it, and I was just—it was the end of it. And in the midst of that darkness and weight, god broke through and it was the only way I can describe it is like a point of light broke through in the darkness and that light was hope. And then the enemy. I didn't hear that voice anymore telling me that this should end and all that. And then from there I just got up and stumbled toward God that's the only way I could describe it. But he stopped it. He shut all of that down and he reminded me that I was His and I hadn't realized that ever, even going back to being a 13-year-old and being baptized and saying a prayer and things like that. So fast forward a few more years, get married, have a family and I'm sitting down. I'm now working as a volunteer at a church over our pro-life ministry, which is the whole story behind that. But now I'm chairing a pro-life ministry at a church here in Fort Worth and just several hundred sweet, godly people who are so passionate for God, the gospel and the sanctity of human life, prayer, warriors, people on the front lines you name it and I get the privilege of leading them and I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm trying to apply business acumen. I'm like, okay, we got to get everyone organized. The senior pastor and the elders were so sweet, they were just great leaders and they're like we'll give you all the support you need. And um, it was. It was incredible.

Lance Cashion:

And um, during that time, as I was organizing things, I was very excited I was also launching a new business at the same time, so it was a lot going on had two little children and my mom had been helping us bring our children home from school. My wife was out working. I was at home in our home office working, and so my mom had gone and picked up the kids they were toddlers at school and put them down for naps. And so I heard her come in and then I went out to greet her and say hello, give her a hug and everything like that. And so we sat down in the living room the kids are asleep in the room and my mom's like tell me about this ministry. She was really excited.

Lance Cashion:

She was attending the same church that we were and all of that, and I was like, okay. So I was like, let me get my notebook. Go get my notebook. And here I am. I'm like here are all the plans. I'm like, here are all the plans. I'm like look at this, it's, it's incredible. And and, uh, she, she. After I closed everything up, she, she looked at me. He's very quiet.

Lance Cashion :

And she said you know, mrs, Ellis would be so proud of you right now.

Lance Cashion:

You know, your godmother would be so very proud. And I was like, yeah, you know, I miss her. She had passed away a number of years before, um, and then, uh, she said my mom. My mom said that she's like. Now I want to tell you something. She was like, uh, she said when I was pregnant with you, um, me and your father were fighting. Um, me and your father were fighting. I honestly I hated him and there was nothing I could do to him for what was going on with us, and there was all kinds of things I won't get into, but a lot of dysfunction there. Um, and she said the only thing, the only way I could get him was if I did something to you. And so she went to her doctor and asked if she could get an abortion, and the doctor said no.

Luke Allen:

I don't do that.

Lance Cashion:

And she walked out and she told me she's like I don't think I could have ever gone through with it. But I went in and asked and I was, of course, by now I'm sitting there with my mom. We have a wonderful relationship and we're both just tearing up and we embrace each other. And good mom hug. You guys know what it's like you get a hug from your mom. Good mom hug. You guys know what it's like you get a hug from your mom. You know, and she said God had been protecting me since I was in her womb and to do whatever he tells me to do, that I'm protected. That even in the womb, knowing what I was going to do to my own child and what I would do with my life, all those dark things that God had protected me. And so you know, hearing that from your mom, you know that she thought of ending my own life. I shouldn't be here in so many ways. I shouldn't be here. But when she told me that in 2000, this was 2013, it was like a whole new. This encouragement came in. I was like, okay, and a confidence in the Lord. I'm like God, you have been protecting me and that's incredible, that he would protect someone that would do something like I would do, and then he would redeem them and heal them and then push them out there, not even knowing what the heck I was doing. That was the funny part, is I really?

Lance Cashion:

When I started in the pro-life ministry, I had to ask people. I'm like, what does all this mean? I knew what it meant to be pro-life. I had to ask people like, what does all this mean? I knew what it meant to be pro-life, but I was like I don't know this world and people were so sweet to me and then to have my mom, you know, encourage me and say I'm praying for you, I'm with you, I'm in your corner, whatever you need, you, let me know. And then that just kind of unleashed me and of course, my wife and family were behind it 100% and I was able to share my story openly and see men and women come forward and say you know, I have that same story either with contemplating suicide or abortion or drugs or alcohol, but in any event God uses those things. But in any event, god uses those things. And so that's kind of how I started in the ministry.

Lance Cashion:

And then, a year later, I get asked to come on staff the most reluctant pastor ever at Christ Chapel here in Fort Worth. I went on as a local outreach pastor and then I started helping deploy, equip and mobilize folks into the community from this church in Fort Worth and all these different areas. And so when I was hired, one of the pastors was like you have one child, which is our pro-life ministry. Can you love 40 children? I'm like God will give me the capacity because that's how many different ministry areas that the church was touching within the local outreach community. So I was like, absolutely, we'll adopt them all, let's go. So it was an incredible journey, but it was all God just getting glory in every little corner and every different aspect of it. I was like, oh my gosh, there's God in a ton of prayer.

Lance Cashion:

So that's my story or a portion of it. I hope that answers your question.

Scott Allen:

Yeah, no. Thanks for sharing the yeah, that's super powerful and it's just so encouraging to hear how just the reality of God and his love for you from the time that you were in the womb and saving you so dramatically when you were at that moment of contemplating suicide. Just praise God.

Lance Cashion:

Lance Absolutely Praise God.

Scott Allen:

Yeah for that story. That's just super powerful. Yeah for that story, that's just super powerful. I'm just curious. The music thing stood out to me a little bit this morning. When did that kind of come in for you? Was that in college, out of college?

Lance Cashion:

So my parents always listened to music. Particularly my father Loved blues and bluegrass and things like that so. I kind of came up with that a lot in my background. I got my first drum set when I was like six and then I played the drums a lot and then got guitars and things like that as I got older. Well, in middle school I started DJing at dances and parties for friends, parents would hire me for like $100.

Lance Cashion:

I'd come set up all the equipment. I had tape decks and a turntable, so the dual tape decks they used to have the cassette players. I used to have one of those, a mixer and one turntable, and that's what I would do and I'd just play Back then. I was a child of the eighties, so eighties music and things like that.

Lance Cashion:

Um, and then in in high school I started making mixtapes and things like that and my music taste started to expand, um, into everything from classical to jam bands to electronic to hip hop and all those things. So I was making mixtapes and then, once I got into college, I went to like a nightclub and heard electronic music like proper DJs in a club. I was like, wow, okay, this is incredible. So I went, started buying records and then ended up playing in clubs, starting a radio station and then launching when I moved from Orlando which is right, by Rollins, which is in Winter Park. When I moved to Austin after college, I launched a full-on label promotion company and I'd been putting out records and DJing in Florida and Texas and then ended up going on tour in North America putting out an album, all those type of things.

Scott Allen:

So you were composing music at that time? Yes, In electronic. You're using synthesizer In electronic environment. Yes, sir, I want to hear it.

Lance Cashion:

People say, well, why did you well with the music? You know, why did you get out of the music? But I was like well, the lifestyle. I had allowed the lifestyle to feed into that darkness. I still love electronic music. I still have a lot of friends in that world and a lot of them don't know the Lord.

Lance Cashion:

So I try to be a bit of a light into that world for them a little salt, a bit of a light into that world for them a little salt. But I still love the music and getting in that electronic environment platform when I can and just to make something out of nothing is really that creative opportunity that God gives us as His creation, as co-creators or under-creators, however you want to put that together.

Lance Cashion:

It's incredible that you can take just silence and then bring a sound into that silence and then build something from your imagination, and now imagination captured by God, it has a different kind of beauty and depth to it that just wasn't there, really, before.

Scott Allen:

It was a business before now. I'm sure your study on kind of biblical worldview and music have really added a bunch of richness to that there it has.

Lance Cashion:

And I'm able to capture some of the when I do hear friends that write beautiful music and I know that they don't know the Lord, I can point out the beauty of it and contact them and say, look, that song was beautiful. It really is, and so there's God's common grace that people that don't really know Him or walk with Him can still write something quite beautiful and extraordinary. It's quite amazing to me.

Scott Allen:

Well, tell us how did you—let's kind of move into our common area of interest, which is, you know, the theology of kind of Christian engagement and culture in a way that brings about positive change and influence kind of discipling nations, as we describe it here. How did you become interested in that? Tell us a little bit about that become interested in that.

Lance Cashion:

Tell us a little bit about that. So originally, after my episode, I started stumbling towards God. I had a lot of non-believing friends so when I would try to tell them about my faith, you know I had a study Bible and I was really kind of struggling with answering some of these questions. Some of them were sarcastics. None of my friends were attacking me per se, but they were kind of like mocking and things like that.

Lance Cashion:

I didn't have answers to these questions, so I came through the door of apologetics and happened to be listening to a Christian. I think it was a Christian radio station and I don't know what I was listening to, but they were giving away for a donation. Greg Kokel's Tactics on.

Lance Cashion:

CD. This is back when CDs, so it dates that a little bit. So you could get. So I made whatever the little donation was and they sent me these six CDs of tactics, so these audio CDs and I just started listening to them and that kind of opened up that world of okay, I don't have to have answers. I need to be able to ask really good questions, but I do at some point in time have to have the answers to these questions. And then started diving into worldview, went from apologetics into worldview. It was like why do people think the way they do? And started that opened up even a larger door, a whole nother world, and my background is in anthropology and sociology, so I'd always been interested in culture.

Lance Cashion:

And so I had this background. I'm like, okay, I see how these tied together, even though my training was in the secular type of anthropology and sociology in college, but then I started to see how that worldview, these presuppositions that lie underneath everyone's beliefs and values, and how they behave and we talked about the tree earlier it's all of that, started to see how that tied together and then I was fascinated by it, by just how people thought and that biblical worldview and just understanding worldviews is really a key to understanding God's world, how we create it and the people that inhabit it, and I started seeing people differently.

Lance Cashion:

It opened up the Bible to me. It became something as our colleague friend John Stonetruth say it's not just a book to be looked at, but a lens to be looked through for all things. And I then, you know, started to see the world in a different way and things became clearer. Things became clearer and then it became and this is it became like a drug. I became addicted to it in a way, in a good way, not the old way.

Luke Allen:

I used to be, but in a good way to where I was.

Lance Cashion:

Like I wanted for everyone to experience that and that they would have this deep understanding of who we are, how God created us in His image, how we're to see the people around us and love His world well, not only just the people that inhabit it, but the things of this world that he created that were good, Everything from natural resources to the resources in our banks, the way, food, all the great things God, art, music, all of those things that he gives such a depth of richness when you start seeing them through the biblical worldview, I was like, okay, everybody has to be able to experience this.

Lance Cashion:

It's, you know, that book Knowing God by JI Packer is such a powerful book and this is another way of knowing God through His world and the people that inhabit it. And then that then gives you a special dynamism or excitement about sharing God's kingdom with people who don't know Him, with people who don't know him, and so that kind of broadened that worldview training or worldview interest attached with my cultural anthropology background, kind of tying everything in. And then here comes the Colson Fellows program.

Lance Cashion:

So I went through Colson Fellows in 19, fellows program so I went through Colson fellows in 19 was commissioned in 20. At the same time all of the we had what some people call the Summer of Love, which were riots and things like that. In the cities you had these racial tensions happening.

Scott Allen:

You're talking about George Floyd COVID.

Lance Cashion:

George.

Lance Cashion:

Floyd COVID all of these things kind of compressing in on the world, but particularly American culture. And so you had this happening and I always thought that my anthropology, sociology background was completely wasted. I thought that that degree—in fact my dad passed away a number of years ago. But I apologized to him. I was like I think I wasted your money putting me through college and getting an anthropology degree at Rollins. But God redeemed it because when I went through that a lot of my professors were neo-Marxists.

Lance Cashion:

So I was studying critical theory, critical race theory, critical social theory in college, and so God kind of redeemed that and so I understood a lot of what was going on but then could take in a biblical worldview approach.

Lance Cashion:

And I was going through Colson at the same time and it was incredible how God pieced all those things together in trying to give people a way to ground their faith through a biblical worldview perspective and not be reaching out to the culture for all these answers, because the culture will give you tools, but they're not the tools of the Bible to deal with all of these issues ethnic issues, you know, covid, all of those things, so that kind of—and then Colson sort of supercharged that and then I'd been reading a lot. So this was kind of a path that I continued down a lot. So this was kind of a path that I continued down and I've just loved it. The more I learn about worldview, the depths of it and and what you guys do at DNA and all that, then it just gives me more excitement and more tools to share with with people that um come in contact with our ministry at Fort Worth.

Luke Allen:

Hey guys, thanks for listening. I just wanted to quickly direct your attention to our core training here at the Disciple Nations Alliance called the Kingdomizer Training Program, which is a free biblical worldview training course. In this course, you'll learn what a worldview is and, more importantly, why there is only one worldview that actually works that comports with reality.

Luke Allen:

As Christians, we all why there is only one worldview that actually works that comports with reality.

Luke Allen:

As Christians, we all know that there's only one God and one Bible, but we often don't think about how God also created one way for us to see and make sense of this world and therefore live according to his basic design for us in this world, and what we call that way of seeing the world is a biblical worldview.

Luke Allen:

Unfortunately, when you become a Christian, you don't just automatically start seeing every part of life through a biblical worldview, so it's important to be discipled as you form this worldview and go through the process of being transformed in the renewing of your mind, as the Apostle Paul described it, and that is where I would highly recommend the Kingdomizer training program, as it is a great tool to help you continue to align your worldview with God and His world, if you would like to learn more about the Kingdomizer Training Program, just head over to quorumdeocom or follow the link in the show notes to see if this course is right for you or something that you'd like to lead a group through. As of today, people from 162 different countries have signed up for this course and are learning how to have a vision larger than themselves or their local church, but a vision for how to see every part of life through a biblical worldview. Join us as we learn how to bring biblical transformation into every corner of society by signing up today for free at quorumdalecom.

Scott Allen:

Lance, do you think you know that just your own story on this is so encouraging to me, and sometimes we talk about being born again, again, you know, in the sense that people come to know Christ as their personal Savior but they don't yet have that aha of seeing their faith as a worldview. You know, it's still a message of salvation, it's very personal, but the concept of this bigger worldview that makes sense of everything. They don't yet have that and so consequently they just you know we all live, we're all shaped by a worldview, whatever the dominant one in our culture is. They, you know, whether you know that or not or can articulate that or not, they're shaped by a postmodern, secular worldview, but they're Christians because they haven't had that born-again-again experience that you described. Do you still think that's in your experience teaching and talking?

Luke Allen:

do you?

Scott Allen:

think most Christians in the United States, in Texas and Fort Worth, are still—haven't had that second aha, that born-again-again experience. They just don't know the concept. Or how would you describe where we're at on that?

Lance Cashion:

I think yes. So the answer to your question is yes, and I think that because, particularly in the evangelical church, there's been this privatization of the faith, that it's deeply personal and private. And it's a private matter, it's between me and Jesus, it's my personal salvation it's what I believe and then okay.

Lance Cashion:

So the consequences of that are you get out and get people saved and you wait for Jesus to come back. Go to Him or he comes to you, but then there's this huge swath of life that. What do you do in the meantime? And I think that's where worldview intersects with all of it and gives meaning to everything is when, once you have the biblical worldview, that aha, that actually, god, I'm saved for a purpose that my personal salvation. I think Michael Craven from the Colson Center puts it so well my salvation is deeply personal and, yes, it's a deeply private matter, but it was never meant to remain private.

Lance Cashion:

It is a public proclamation, the gospel of the kingdom, and that I see it as personal salvation, as the doorway into the kingdom. And then you need people to disciple you, to open that door and say, okay, welcome to the kingdom. And then Ephesians 2.10 comes into play. That's been, that's my core verse for my life. People are very aware of.

Lance Cashion:

Ephesians 2.10 comes into play. That's my core verse for my life. People are very aware of Ephesians 2.8 and 9, for you're saved by grace through faith, but then Ephesians 2.10 gives you what you're saved for, the purpose. You know we're workmanship in Christ Jesus, created for good works that we should walk in, and they were preordained. They were for us.

Lance Cashion:

Like he knew before the foundations of the world, that here are the works. You know, scott, luke, dwight, that you're going to walk in for my glory and you can't do it on your own. I'm going to empower you to do it and once people see that the kingdom opens up and it's, you know, you see folks really grasp a deeper appreciation for the redemption in Christ personally. But then what is God doing in the world? And that God is in fact redeeming will restore all things and all the sin, all the brokenness will be unmade and that will end and he will restore all things. But until then we're as ambassadors to be bringing salt and light and the proclamation of the gospel and seeing people come into the kingdom, but giving that worldview.

Lance Cashion:

So to answer your question is I don't think most people have an understanding of being a Christian as a worldview, as a life system. They see it as. This is a decision I made. This is what I do in response to that decision. I say a prayer I'm saved, and then I go to church and try to be a good person and those are parts of you know, living as a Christian, but they're not the totality of the Christian life.

Scott Allen:

Yeah, no it's a huge problem.

Lance Cashion:

It is.

Scott Allen:

Actually, you know, because, if you again you know, my conviction is that we are all shaped by these worldviews. Worldviews are unavoidable. When I say worldviews, I'm talking about these ways that we see the world around us. What's ultimately real? What does it mean to be a human? All the big questions are answered by worldview, and if you're not consciously thinking worldviewishly, if you will, you're just absorbing whatever answers that people around you are giving you to those big questions.

Scott Allen:

And here's the thing you can become a Christian and begin to have that worldview shifted. But unless it's intentional and there's a focus on it, you can be syncretic if you will like, have a faith, but still be largely shaped by the worldview around you and consequently you don't have any—you're not discipling nations, you're not having an influence on culture. Culture is just shaping you and the way you think. So it's a huge problem. You talk about a real focus for you on Fort Worth, and I love that. How does a biblical worldview shape my understanding of mission, the good works that God has for me, and how do we live that out in a way that has an impact on a city, much less a nation? Could you talk a little bit about that? What does it mean to live out a kind of a missional theology of biblical worldview in a way that shapes a city like Fort Worth? I know that's kind of a mouthful, but I love your thoughts on that, Dwight, go ahead.

Dwight Vogt:

I want to interrupt too, before you even go to that question, because that's where I think we want to end. But what's an example, Lance, in your life where you had a worldview shift.

Scott Allen:

That's a good question, Dwight Let me consider that for a moment.

Lance Cashion:

That's a great question, or?

Dwight Vogt:

maybe I'll rephrase that what's one?

Lance Cashion:

you think that most people need to have that walk in the church today. So I think one of them and I think this is one that's fundamental to the Christian theology and our understanding of God and our place in the world is that every human being is created in God's image, with intrinsic value, worth, and that the world most, even secular or other worldviews, do not agree with that at all.

Lance Cashion:

That it is absolutely distinctive to Christianity and it's so important that that is for me is my starting place, particularly in the pro-life space and human trafficking, things like that, when you're dealing with that, because what you're seeing is a desecration of what, of image bearers, and when I I've got a lot of lost friends I was with um, several this this past weekend, um, uh in austin, uh, for a memorial service for a friend of ours and a lot of them just don't have the concept that human life, the Christian, biblical concept of human life. And I think that once I understood that and that was really, I would say probably, I don't know 20 years ago, when I really understood. I would say probably I don't know 20 years ago, when I really understood and it really hit home when my mom back to the story with my mom, when she's in it, and I knew these things in my head but I understood it. When she said that God was protecting me in her womb, I was like why? Because I'm created in His image, she had a purpose for me that I wasn't even aware of, you know.

Lance Cashion:

And then when you can share that with people, particularly in an age when identity is under attack and there's so much confusion that somebody who's confused about who they are and they think life is worthless or they think that they can create themselves in whatever image they want, which is some heavy lifting. That is hard to do. I'm glad I'm not the author of my life. It would be terrible. But when you can tell someone what is true real reality or true truth about who they are, they don't have to be saved at this point in time. It's just say you're created in the image of God with intrinsic value, worth and dignity. Your life should be protected. It's valuable and there is a purpose for you that opens up the door for so many other things, because the world doesn't tell people that. They tell you that you're useful for something, that you're a good attorney or you're a good football player. If it's a woman, you could be a model. Those aren't Christian values.

Dwight Vogt:

Those are just Well that doesn't speak to your intrinsic nature. No, it doesn't, and so, if you can speak, that's right and speak.

Lance Cashion:

What God has already said is true about every individual human being in the womb, all the way from the womb to the tomb. Doesn't matter your ethnicity, your ability, where you live, what you believe, but that is still true that you're created in His image. That's groundbreaking, a groundbreaking platform for the gospel from my perspective. So I think that's one shift and it happened for me, and I think that's one that needs to happen for more Christians.

Dwight Vogt:

That's great. Thank you Excellent.

Scott Allen:

Yeah, let's go back then, Lance. How do you? You know? So you talk about discipling Fort Worth, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, talk about that. When you say that, what do you mean and what does that look like?

Lance Cashion:

So when I went on staff as a local outreach pastor, I was exposed to some things in my city that I didn't even realize the extent of the brokenness, whether it was, you know, cps and foster care system, homelessness, human trafficking, abortion, corruption, I mean, you name it. It was like God in His grace, god in His grace just revealed the underbelly, a dark underbelly, of a city which the veneer of Fort Worth wealth lots of churches, lots of Christian types, people are kind and friendly, but the underbelly.

Lance Cashion:

And so, as I was a local outreach pastor, when you minister, god takes you to some places and shows you some things that you didn't know were there, and so, once that started, god revealed that. It became evident to me that I was to be a pastor for my city. I don't know what all that necessarily looks like.

Lance Cashion:

I'm still trying to figure a lot of that out, and so the idea was that I needed to. My heart had to be broken for all the brokenness in my city and Fort Worth's a big place. But I'm from here, I know how it kind of operates. I know the culture here well. I'm always learning new things, but I know the culture well enough to see cultural shifts when we're growing. We're one of the fastest-growing metropolitan cities in the country.

Lance Cashion:

But then I could also see the problems within the church in Fort Worth where there was a disconnect between what was being preached and then what was actually happening in the city, or it was a very privatized type of situation in the church. So there was a lot of different factors. But what ended up happening when I left the church my previous employer and launched the Forge Room? Originally, the vision was this was going to be in the church, that we were going to equip and mobilize the people of this church in a bigger way and get them out. But God is like, not a church, the church and then created the conditions where I left staff and launched the Forge Room Foundation and then it basically became equipping Christians with a biblical worldview, because the way that I see discipleship in Scripture and there's a lot of different approaches to, okay, what does discipleship mean?

Lance Cashion:

It's obviously you're following a teacher, but I see Jesus throughout Scripture where he has these followers, these disciples. These aren't necessarily the apostles, even though they're included, but these people that were following him and many of them were pagans, and then some would believe and then, you see, some would fall away and then the church kind of has this discipling to Christ and then coming to a saving faith in Christ and then discipling them with Christ until the last day. And so this type of shepherding, but discipling the nations and discipling in Fort Worth is what do I need to help Christians in Fort Worth do that love the Lord? And yet they're asking the question well, what should I do?

Lance Cashion:

now we have political issues going on in our city, but my pastor tells me not to get involved with politics. Well, okay, I've got some problems with that, because, god, we could talk about that all day. But what if you're to be a precinct chair?

Lance Cashion:

What if you're to go to the school, you're going to go on the school board or run for office or support a great Christian candidate that upholds biblical values. You say no to that? Of course not. Or arts and music. There's been a big thing happen at the Modern here in Fort Worth.

Lance Cashion:

There's been essentially child pornography that was put up as art in a major museum here and there's been a huge pushback from the church in Fort Worth and there's been lawsuits filed, investigations like all these things happening Like how did this happen? And there's been lawsuits filed, investigations like all these things happening Like how did this happen? And yet how did it happen? To begin with, well, the church is largely absent. Christians aren't on the boards of these museums, they're not in these institutions and if they are, they're quiet and they don't know how to engage with the ideas.

Lance Cashion:

You know, we have large corporations here in Fort Worth I'm not going to mention the name of one of the defense contractors, but they're in Fort Worth and I have a dear friend that his superiors were going to have him use pronouns on his email. Well, he's a Christian. He was like Lance, I have deep issues with that. Now that's a conversation we can have. But he was like I, I have deep issues with that. Now, that's a conversation we can have. But he was like I can't do that.

Lance Cashion:

What are my options? What helped me think through this? I was like well, you need to have your convictions and if they let you go, god's got you. But struggling with issues like that, which seems minor to us, but the man's been working there for 25 years. His family, I mean, that's how he supports his family and he's a good man. But he's struggling with something like putting pronouns on an email signature, I mean. But the problem is that there's very few Christians that are equipped in these institutions and in these domains and spheres within the city that can bring salt and light and bring truth into these areas, because they've been regulated to a privatized faith of go to your church on Sunday.

Lance Cashion:

Be a good person go to small group tithe, all of those things and the Ephesians 2.10 kind of fades off into the distance, you know, instead of bringing it into the forefront for people. So that's how I see it is allowing people to live for Christ and, wherever God calls them, serve His purposes and for the crisis or opportunity that's right in front of them, whatever that may be, whether it's in their family dealing with a wayward child, or a child dealing with identity issues, sexual identity issues, same-sex attraction or grandchild, or, you know, in the area of politics, pro-life human trafficking.

Lance Cashion:

We've got a human trafficking problem in Fort Worth because the church has been largely silent on things like pornography and the hearts of men and preaching the hearts of men and redemption in Christ, that God can in fact redeem that sin and that he can use you. So I don't know if that went. A lot of ankles there.

Luke Allen:

So, yeah, I mean, that's great. When I, when I hear a question like that, it sounds so broad and difficult how do you disciple a city? And I think your answer is spot on. You start with where God's placed you and, um, what you were saying earlier with the importance of worldview you've been saved, yes. But then ask people the question safe to do what, and safe to do what where? Well, let's start where you're at. You know and you are in this business, so you're safe to do what in that business or in your family. Start there.

Luke Allen:

And so often when we hear that those questions of how do I disciple my nation, my city, so on, we think I have to go do something new and outside of what I already do, I have to add on like some ministry after work kind of thing, because that's where real, real discipleship or real kingdom mission happens. It's like, no, you can start where you're at. So I love the way you're going about that, but also what you said I thought was helpful in the fact that you, you and I think you encourage people to not just look at kind of the surface eye level view of your city but look one step deeper. What's the underbelly, what's what? What? What darkness is happening around me in the city, like Fort Worth. Most people around the world are going to look at it and say, oh, it's amazing, modern, beautiful and you know, I'm sure not that much bad corruption and darkness happens there, you know, unlike other places in the world where it's more obvious. It happens everywhere and it's around each and every one of us.

Luke Allen:

Um but not avoiding that is an important thing to. I was going to underscore that too, luke.

Scott Allen:

I heard that loud and clear from Lance that when I asked the question, you started by talking about things that were happening in the city, in its culture and its practices, and the different domains that were out of alignment, let's say you know that were evil, unjust, dark, and so just to underscore what Luke is saying there yeah, it begins, doesn't it, with understanding that God has placed you in a place to do good works, and then you know what is broken here in this place, having some kind of an understanding of that, and I think to do that you have to have an understanding of kind of what does it look like to not be broken? Kind of what is the biblical worldview you?

Lance Cashion:

know God's ideal.

Scott Allen:

You have to have some sense of that. Absolutely.

Scott Allen:

And then it has to be. You have to have a sense that this is true for everybody. This isn't just a personal, private thing, but this is true for all people. And it's true because God created this world and when we live according to the way that he made it, it leads to, you know, flourishing good things for people, you know, and we still live in a fallen world. But he wants that. He wants people to live according to that truth and then, having the courage to be able to kind of address it, say God, what can I do in this place to address these areas that are broken, that are not what you desire to see? You know, and that often takes courage, you know. But I think even before you get to that point, you have to understand there's a lot of steps to even just get to that point that I think we're not there yet, you know, with people because there's such a disconnect. Any comments on what Luke and I are sharing here? Lance?

Lance Cashion:

Yes, I mean, it's that part of it, as you're, you know, describing that, and we're kind of reflecting and processing is always. I was just thinking of, you know, this bifurcated view we have of the gospel, the secular-sacred distortion, and I was just reading, actually shortly before we jumped on this podcast. Colossians 1 is one of my favorite chapters of Scripture because it talks about the preeminence of Christ, that he is Lord over all.

Scott Allen:

Yeah, there is no domain of human existence that he doesn't have an interest or an involvement in. Right.

Lance Cashion:

That's right, I mean, it's all His and because it's all His, and I forget who said this. I think it was Dr Glenn Sunshine. He's like. He asked the question what is Jesus Christ Lord over? And people are like everything and.

Lance Cashion:

I'm like, yeah, that's true, it rhymes with call. He's Lord over all, but the calling is attached to all, that we are called into God's kingdom, first through salvation, and then now he opens up this door and gives us a mission to serve Him for a time and place, for such a time as this. But Acts 17, 26, that he has placed us in a specific time and place every single person on earth, so we're not here by accident. And then that's still this big, convoluted type of idea, like I don't know what that means. And then do I start a Bible study at work? Well, maybe, but if you live for Christ each and every moment.

Lance Cashion:

And I love this quote by Oz Guinness. He says that Christian leadership, the Christian leader, is the person, and he would say every Christian is a leader. And he says a leader is someone who takes responsibility and initiative for the crisis or opportunity that's right in front of them, thus serving God's purposes in their generation. And then he then goes into talking about, you know, first century Christians rescuing children from infanticide, from exposure and abortion, and things like that, and he's like they were just rescuing the child right in front of them. So what's right in front of you that you can take responsibility and initiative for and it's a person you know when you talk to, when I do trainings and we're talking about these big worldview issues and culture and all the things and then it comes down to brass tacks. You know you can raise a hand. How many of you in the room have a close friend, a child or grandchild struggling with same-sex attraction, transgenderism, sexual identity issues? Almost every hand goes up. Okay, what can you do to take initiative and responsibility for that crisis, which is also an opportunity right in front of you? And then how do you go about doing that?

Lance Cashion:

There's these four questions that get thrown around. I always attribute them to John Stonestreet and Brett Kunkel because they wrote them in a book, but there are other places as well as the four questions of what's good that I can celebrate, promote and protect, what's evil that I can stop or fight, what's missing that I can create or contribute, what's broken that I can restore. And then, if you look at every human being, every situation and ask those four questions, you're dealing with creation, fall, redemption and restoration, those four chapters and again the biblical worldview coming to life. And then, when you give people the charge of what's right in front of you. Write it down. Write that person's name down, start praying for them. You want to change the culture? Start there. And yes, by all means go and speak in front of a school board if they're going to bring pornography into your schools.

Lance Cashion:

By all means, if they're going to be putting up really salacious, sinful art in an art museum, speak out against those things. If you're a wealth manager, by all means teach someone biblical stewardship. And this is the way that resources work in God's world, when they're properly ordered.

Scott Allen:

Let me stop you there just a second, lance, because what you're talking about doing here I want to tie it to something you said earlier about discipleship. You said, and you used the example of the followers of Jesus and how many of them actually weren't. You know, they weren't believers in Jesus and yet Jesus just kind of walked alongside of them and started speaking truthfully to them about the way the world is and who they were, and some of them did come to faith in Christ. You know, I think, if I'm not mistaking the way you described it, that's a very different way of understanding discipleship, but this is kind of what we're talking about now. You know we're in these places, if I could use that word.

Scott Allen:

Disciple it's to speak truthfully, and to live truthfully to non-believers, you know, or whoever is there Christians or non-Christians about these important things and that, in a way, will you know, some people will reject it, some people will be attracted to it. You know, tell me more about what it means to be a human being made in God's image, with dignity and honor and respect and purpose. I'm drawn to that, you know, and then you know. So the discipleship becomes something that happens even before someone you know gets to the point of making a personal decision of faith in Christ. That's super important.

Scott Allen:

Because I think you know we think of discipleship as something that only happens after that, and then you know it's quite limited in terms of its scope. You know here's what it means to be a Christian. Here's, you know what it means to read the Bible, to do personal evangelism. Have a quiet time you know, live a holy life.

Scott Allen:

Those are all really important, but this is something much bigger and broader. This is something that you begin with, right where you're at in the culture, by understanding biblical worldview, living it out and being salt and light. Am I getting what you're saying correct? Because these are really different paradigms than most Christians have in the church.

Lance Cashion:

That's right and I think that we see things in our synchronistic, pragmatic worldview, american worldviews, that kind of. Even as Christians we have to kind of push back on all that and really continue to cultivate the biblical worldview. It's not set and done, you've got to continue to cultivate. It is that everything becomes programmatic, that A plus B equals C or whatever you know. That formula is that no discipleship happens after someone's saved, and then it's a program and, to your point, it focuses on what we call spiritual formation, theological knowledge, holy living piety, those type of things.

Scott Allen:

But it doesn't address issues in the culture. These areas are broken. Public theology is set aside. It's not even looking for it. Yeah, exactly.

Lance Cashion:

No, it doesn't have an antenna for it.

Scott Allen:

Yeah, it doesn't have an antenna for it. It's well even looking for it. Yeah, exactly. No, it doesn't have an antenna for it. Yeah, it doesn't have an antenna for it.

Lance Cashion:

It's well said, yeah, and so what we have to do is, I think, as Christians that are living worldviewishly or thinking worldviewishly, is develop that discernment. I think the missing piece if I had to say anything, at least in my context is discernment.

Lance Cashion:

There are a lot of good Christians that can do the right thing the wrong way, because they're not thinking through the implications of what they're doing or they don't fully understand the social justice issues, to use a worldly framework. Christians should have had an intent for that but we didn't. Because we're not attuned to be able to pick up those under that frequency, because we lack that discernment, because our public theology isn't fully developed, meaning we know what we're saved for, we understand that we are to be in Scripture, we're to be in community as a church, but we're also gathering and scattering every week that we're to be in Scripture. We're to be in community as a church, but we're also gathering and scattering every week that we're to be living for Christ everywhere.

Lance Cashion:

I think it was Martin Luther was saying it's almost like changing diapers to the glory of God. If you're a single mom, you know, and you've got two little ones at home and that's all you do is work to put food on the table, and you know, change diapers, you know, and that's all you do is work, put food on the table and change diapers. How do you do that to glory? Well, god sees you and if you're living in such a way, they're like I'm going into work today and I've been working here for 20 years and it's just the usual 9 to 5 work. But I'm going to glorify God in every moment in it and then people are going to see that. And I'm going to glorify God in every moment in it, and then people are going to see that and it's going to change. I'm going to bring order to the disorder. Even if it's having a clean office or seeing a mess in the kitchen, I'm going to bring order to that.

Lance Cashion:

And if no one sees it, that's okay. God will see it, but somebody is going to eventually walk into that kitchen and be like who put this place in order and why?

Dwight Vogt:

Because it's usually a mess, and even that. Then the question is, why is order important, or where does order come from? And then you have to go back and say, well, god is a creator of order, right. First thing he did was he took chaos of heaven and earth and started creating order out of it, and that's right. And he's the God of beauty as well.

Dwight Vogt:

That's a worldview issue, right, and I think people tend to operate like you're saying, lance, and I think this is what you bring to the world is people operate at this program level and even a principle level, but they don't understand. Oh, god is a God of order. And anyway, I would encourage you with your sociology and anthropology background, don't lose that. That's kind of a gold nugget that God's put into your life that you can continue to bring wherever you go.

Lance Cashion:

Yes, he's redeemed it At a very practical level.

Dwight Vogt:

You're talking now. Way down underneath is God, is a God of order.

Lance Cashion:

That's why we do it and I think that brings beauty even the aesthetic when you see things well-ordered, beauty, even the aesthetic when you see things well-ordered. I always love the medieval Christian concept of the music of the spheres, like when I first heard that concept and started reading about it and taking a deep dive into it. My son, who's 15 now, when he was much younger, I mean, he loves the start, he's got all these maps and everything and he's brilliant with it. But you know, when I look up at night and we have these big skies in Texas and I'm sitting out by a campfire or something and I look up and I'm like the music of the spheres, that is order, it is music. To the medieval Christian mind, that was the highest science, it was music, geometry, mathematics. They were seeing music and there's something just absolutely no human. You can give AI all the power in the world that you want. It can never create that. It can never create that it can never, impact.

Lance Cashion:

You like looking at the night sky and you happen to see like a shooting star, which happens to be, a little piece of dust and what that does to the imagination and that it's God just glorifying himself. And I always remind my kids when we go out to the country every once in a while and watch sunset and you're watching the clouds and the stars like you will never see this happen just this way ever again, and you could sit and watch the sunset every single night of your life.

Lance Cashion:

Happened just this way ever again and you could sit and watch the sunset every single night of your life. But if you could have Christians see God's order in such a way where they could, you know, go to a park or these things, this just natural beauty, and see the order in it, it does help them fortify their faith and actually build on their biblical worldview. And actually build on their biblical worldview because this doesn't become this programmatic or practical thing that I do every day. It is how I see.

Dwight Vogt:

But even there the attack is that. Well, this just happened. You know, the Big Bang happened, darwin happened, and so even there we lose our biblical worldview. Sometimes we're loving nature and we're loving the stars, but we forget wow, this is what God did. So then you go back to your worldview.

Lance Cashion:

And creation speaks, and creation speaks, yeah.

Dwight Vogt:

Creation speaks loud enough to even overwhelm Darwin.

Lance Cashion:

Yeah, he wasn't listening.

Dwight Vogt:

But we still were so deceived by the guy.

Lance Cashion:

So anyway, yeah it is true, yeah, he discipled the nations plural in a significant way.

Scott Allen:

We think Darwinian thoughts, even if we've never studied him in many ways.

Scott Allen:

And I think that's you know, the converse should be true, that there's such a profound shaping of culture by true thoughts. That's a lie. So it's the truth. But that's you know. For that to happen, that has to be something that we do. That's you know, in God's strength and his power. Now, lance, we need to wrap up, but some people would, when they listen to conversations like we're having right now and this kind of framing of Christian faith and faithfulness, especially towards culture, they think of Christian nationalism. That's this new boogeyman that's come up here of late. And you're a Christian nationalist. You're trying to kind of take over the culture, impose kind of Christian values and principles on non-Christians, and then you have a lot of Christians you know that. Push back against it as well, saying things like you know, this whole focus on culture, culture warring, trying to change culture it's a distraction that you know. Ultimately, that's not our job.

Scott Allen:

Our job isn't to disciple nations, it's to win souls to Christ and bring them into the church, ultimately to heaven, and this culture is kind of irredeemably lost or something. I'm not quite sure how they would put it, but it's any kind of trying to rescue. This is kind of the Titanic view. Right, You're trying to polish the brass on a sinking ship is a waste of time, it's a distraction. You know, do not go down that road. What are your responses to that? I'm sure you hear that and just this whole kind of charge of Christian nationalism. Are you a Christian nationalist?

Lance Cashion:

Lance, christian nationalist? It depends on which of the six definitions you're using. You know I try not to and this has happened really recently, over the last say five years. Is I slow down? Slow to speak? I'm usually fast to speak. Need to be slower to speak. But back to the discernment is trying to go back and retrieve biblical categories and the biblical language for things, and the reason why is because these labels emerge. Like you know, races, that's not a biblical category. You go back to Samuel Morton who informed Darwin and then you get natural selection and the survival of favored races, if that's the full like you know you okay.

Lance Cashion:

So some of these categories aren't biblical. So, as a Christian, I try to reorder the categories and say I speak in the language of the Bible, or at least attempt to and it's hard to do because you've been enculturated to speak a certain way racism and races and all these things, and I use that as an example, because the Bible speaks of nations, tongues, tribes, peoples that's the language of the Bible nations, ethnos, ethnicities, that we're different people. And, yes, I'm a man from Fort Worth, texas. I'm a Fort Worthian, I'm a Texan, I'm American and I'm a Christian, but I'm a Christian first. So when I read in the Bible where the nations gather, I mean we're worshiping God as one. You know all these tribes, tongues and nations that he has brought into His kingdom.

Scott Allen:

You're talking about the passages in Revelation, I guess foreshadowing in places like Isaiah and whatnot yeah Right.

Lance Cashion:

But when you see that that picture of that is that I don't know how he's going to organize the choir from all these tongues and we're going to actually sound good, because I can't sing very well. But it's going to be amazing because there's some aspect, if I'm understanding Scripture properly that we retain our identity of who we are, where we were born, our ethnicity, and that's part of the beauty. We won't all look the same. We'll be glorified in these glorified bodies. We don't know what that'll look like, but I always point people to Revelation 21 and 22, because the idea that, oh, the earth is going to burn away, there's nothing to be left and we just got to the Titanic's get people you know, saved rescue mission.

Lance Cashion:

And then you have this. You know Christian escapism that kind of plays into it like, wait a second, what do I read at the end of the book, which is the new beginning? It's like wait a second. God comes to dwell with man here and that's incredible that God condescends almost. It's almost like he condescends to be with. He loves us so much that he would send Jesus Christ to die for people that are in complete rebellion against him. And then he wants to dwell tabernacle with us again and that you see the new Jerusalem. And then he dwells with man and I'm like that is an incredible story that we're a part of and an incredible vision that we're heading toward. And back to the meantime. But I try to again, when it comes to Christian nationalism, I'm hearing like woke right being thrown around. I'm like, oh Lord, I'm like, don't use the categories.

Lance Cashion:

I know that there's great theologians that are trying to be like wait a second, we can use that category. I'm just like I don't use the categories because there's so many meanings that can be tied into it. It's like the word justice. What do you mean by that? Before we start talking about justice, we could be going in two different directions but having the same conversation.

Scott Allen:

I wrote a book about that.

Lance Cashion:

Yeah, conversation. You know I wrote a book about that. Yeah, so it's. Yeah, I think the label you have to kind of be careful. It's back to the biblical. Let's use biblical categories. Yeah, I think that's a really good warning.

Scott Allen:

That's a label that we don't see in the scriptures, and then the question is where did it come from? Who kind of originated at that and why? You know what? Were they trying to describe what were they trying to do.

Lance Cashion:

Were they closer to Gramsci, or were they closer to Christ?

Lance Cashion:

It's like where did this come from? Are we talking French Revolution or American Revolution, like the Reformation or the Enlightenment? Where are these concepts coming from that we're forming and shaping? Let's back to linguistics and anthropology. It's like where are these words coming from and how can we use the biblical retrieve and recover biblical words and categories and reinfuse back to telling the truth into a situation? Well, let's use those categories first, because then you're reorienting people to truth. And the beautiful thing about again use those categories first, because then you're reorienting people to truth. And the beautiful thing about again back to the disciple discipling the nations right where you're at is sometimes when you're working with someone who's lost, that doesn't know Christ. They're confused and you just know it. But one thing I try to help encourage people, and hopefully some of your listeners as well, is that when you see someone that you're discipling, that you're speaking truth and they respond to that truth, celebrate it.

Lance Cashion:

Be like they're orienting themselves, they're turning away from falsehood and it may be just one little kernel of truth that you give to them and you see them lay hold of that and they start heading toward the light, the path of truth, and you can celebrate that rather than just, oh, we've got to get them saved immediately.

Scott Allen:

Yeah, salvation prayer or whatever it is right.

Lance Cashion:

Right, which is an intellectual assent to agree with some ideas that are absolutely true. But you have to help people get there. It's coming alongside and throwing a little kernel of truth in front of them and see what they do with it.

Scott Allen:

I think when people do respond to that truth in a way that draws them, and they're drawn to it and they turn away from something that's evil or dark, that's the work of the Holy Spirit, right there. We don't do that. Apart from this power of God, we're too fallen. So yeah, celebrate that and then pray. What's next? Let's help them on that journey.

Scott Allen:

Lance this has been really enriching to me. You've helped me honestly just shape my thinking on this whole issue of discipling nations and so just really appreciate it, dwight Luke. Any final questions or thoughts, as we kind of bring our conversation today to wrap it up here, stay the course.

Dwight Vogt:

Stay the course, Lance.

Luke Allen:

Yeah, yes, sir, wrap it up here. Stay the course. Stay the course lines. Yeah, yes, sir, I uh, I'm a big fan of what you're doing at the ford room foundation. Um, as far as how other people can learn more about what you're doing, you know, get involved. I'm sure some of our listeners are in your area and uh, could get involved boots on the ground. But uh, yeah, just tell, tell us about that.

Lance Cashion:

Yeah, so the Forge Room Foundation. I launched it in May of 23. It's forgeroomorg is our website, and we essentially do three things we equip, activate and connect Christians to critical issues in our community through worldview training, cultural intelligence and different trainings in different areas, whether it's human trafficking or pro-life issues. And then we activate them, meaning that we have a network that we built out of different organizations and areas within the city where the Christian voice and influence is needed, and a lot of these people are already there. We just plug them into that network and then they have a community.

Lance Cashion:

And then they have a learning community where they can come back and learn more. We'll have speakers come in like Eric Metaxas and Dr Sunshine and John Stonestreet's been in, and so we'll do these big events. But the idea is that we do seminars and workshops to help Christians think biblically about the world around them. Help Christians think biblically about the world around them. We expect that their churches should be developing. You know their walk, individual walk as a Christian and in the life of you know we're going to help develop the life of the mind and activate them into the areas of the city where there needs to be the Christian influence.

Scott Allen:

Is it focused exclusively or primarily towards your work in Fort Worth?

Lance Cashion:

Yes, so we made a decision was when we first formed the foundation. Was this going to be a bigger, you know operation like a national type of deal? But I started looking around and my heart's from my city and so we have great organizations. What you guys are doing at DNA, you have the Colson Center. You have. Focus on the Family Maven Summit. Just great organizations, center for Biblical Unity, that are these national organizations. But those big national organizations struggle moving the needle in a city.

Lance Cashion:

But those big national organizations struggle moving the needle in a city. What you need is a base in a city where they can bring all these resources together and then build a learning community that's also an active community, that then takes all of this worldview, learning and what I call cultural intelligence and then pushes that out and embeds it in the city through all the different spheres and institutions in the city.

Lance Cashion:

So we pull from, like I said, I'm going to borrow your tree, I'm going to borrow your tree illustration. We bring in speakers and we try to bring in these resources and make them available through our trainings and our connections, so that I don't need to reinvent the wheel at the forger and we have great organizations that have done great work. I just need to connect people to that type of worldview training or those resources or tools that can help them in their specific area and then so that's what we do is focus on Fort Worth. This is, it's a big enough city.

Scott Allen:

Yeah, I love that you know enough problems. I do think it's you know. People say how do you disciple a nation? And I'm like well, you start with the most basic community that you're in, which is your own family. Start there, right, right, and then you can move on to your city. But we can't get our hands around something as big as an entire nation. That's why I love about what you're talking about.

Lance Cashion:

But you can do something in a city. And cities are unique, and that's where we start as the family, like you just said, and you work yourself out in concentric circles from there.

Scott Allen:

Cities. They've got unique issues giftings problems and national groups can't focus at that level, whereas a city-focused ministry like yours can, and so I love that. I look forward to going on the website and checking it out. What is it again? Tell our listeners.

Lance Cashion:

It's forgeroomorg, that's our website. And then I write I'm moving my personal website from Revolution of man is where I write my blog. It's now on Substack.

Scott Allen:

Okay.

Lance Cashion:

And so you can go there as well. And then we have a podcast Revolution of man podcast where we talk about all kinds of things, but again it's the focus on the city and helping the Christians and the church and the city to engage with their city, and it starts in what's right in front of me that I can take initiative and responsibility for, and it's amazing watching people in schools. You want to fight human trafficking. Teach a kid to read before third grade. You lower their vulnerabilities by 60%.

Lance Cashion:

It's simple things like that that Christians can do, that they can—then they know they can make a difference. You just have to show them how and then give them the encouragement and confidence in the community that'll support them, that'll pray for them and make sure that their churches know that their people are out there. It's nothing greater to go to a pastor of a church and say you know, mary over here is making a difference in this area in our community I don't know if you know that or not and you see their pastor like wow.

Lance Cashion:

I didn't know. Pastors need to be told that their people are making a difference. If they don't know already, they should be helping their people make a difference, but sometimes they just don't know, and that's an encouragement to the pastors.

Scott Allen:

Wow, so powerful. Lance, thanks for being with us today and just thanks for your testimony. It's encouraging to hear God's powerful work in your life and just the vision that he's given you, and may God bless you and the work of your hands. And thanks for being on our podcast today.

Lance Cashion:

Well, thank you guys, god bless you guys and everything that you guys do Really appreciate it.

Scott Allen:

All right, well, thanks, and to all our listeners, thank you again for tuning in to another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance.

Luke Allen:

Thanks again for joining us for this discussion with Lance Cashin, as always, for all of the resources that we mentioned during the episode and for more information about our guest, just head over to the episode page, which is linked in the show notes. And, by the way, if your takeaway from today's episode is wondering how you can learn more about how to disciple your family, your community, your city or even your nation, as I mentioned during the commercial, our free biblical worldview video training course is a great place to start Again. It's called Kingdomizer 101, and it's available at quorumdeocom and it's also linked in the show notes. That's it for today, guys. Thanks again to each and every one of you guys for joining us here on. Ideas have Consequences consequences. Today. We hope that you're able to listen in again next week for another episode. You.

People on this episode

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Scott Allen

Host
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Darrow Miller

Co-host
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Dwight Vogt

Co-host
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Shawn Carson

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Tim Williams

Co-host
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Luke Allen

Producer