Ideas Have Consequences
Everything that we see around us is the product of ideas, of ideologies, of worldviews. That's where everything starts. Worldviews are not all the same, and the differences matter a lot. How do you judge a tree? By its fruits. How do you judge a worldview? By its physical, tangible, observable fruit. The things it produces. Ideas that are noble and true produce beauty, abundance, and human flourishing. Poisonous ideas produce ugliness. They destroy and dehumanize. It really is that simple. Welcome to Ideas Have Consequences, the podcast of Disciple Nations Alliance, where we prepare followers of Christ to better understand the true ideas that lead to human flourishing while fighting against poisonous ideas that destroy nations. Join us, and prepare your minds for action!
Ideas Have Consequences
The Most Important Word You’ve Never Heard Of
There is nothing in this life that can cause a Christian to lose hope. Why? Because we follow the Author of history—His-story—the God of eucatastrophe.
Eucatastrophe, a term coined by renowned author J.R.R. Tolkien, describes the powerful theme throughout Scripture where stories of seeming catastrophe suddenly take a dramatic turn for good at the last possible moment.
In this episode, Scott, Dwight, and Luke explore how understanding eucatastrophe can transform a Christian's perspective on hope, faith, tribulation, and suffering. Join them as they unpack this profound concept through Scripture, literature, and its relevance in today’s challenges, reminding us that even in the darkest moments, God is the author of the redemptive story.
View the transcript, leave comments, and check out recommended resources on the Episode Landing Page!
Your life matters. But when you face those overwhelming odds and everything seems hopeless and it seems like evil is going to win and carry the day, it has all the momentum. You face a choice. You can despair it's hopeless, let's just give up, but that's not the right response. The right response is to see it in the light in the framework of eucatastrophe, trust in God and make a courageous decision and fight right, push back.
Luke Allen:Hi friends, welcome to. Ideas have Consequences. The podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. Here on this show we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world, to all the nations, but our mission also includes to be the hands and feet of God, to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected this second part of her mission and today most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.
Scott Allen:Well, welcome again to another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. I'm Scott Allen, I'm the president of the DNA and I'm joined today by my dear friends Dwight Vogt and Luke Allen, and we are without a guest today, but we're really excited to just have a discussion between the three of us on a word, a concept that is so powerful that it changes everything, and that word is eucatastrophe. I know it's a crazy sounding word. There's many syllables and most people don't even know what that word means. We don't use it in our everyday language.
Scott Allen:Eucatastrophe I'm here to tell you that it's the central theme of reality. Let's just put it that way it's the central theme of the biblical worldview. The biblical worldview is the story of reality. It's the theme around which the biblical worldview is the story of reality. It's the theme around which the entire story is built. And so if you want to understand biblical truth, if you want to understand biblical worldview, you've got to understand eucatastrophe, and we're going to get into that today.
Scott Allen:What is it? Let's understand, first of all, the concept itself. We're going to talk about what it is, define it, kind of where it came from, this word, and what it means, and then we're going to move on to how we see it as this central kind of dominant theme in the scriptures, and then we'll look at some illustrations in literature, and then we'll conclude today by talking about what it means for us, how it shapes the way that we see the world, face the world and live in it, how it ought to be a central piece of shaping our lives and our actions. So it's really practical and very important. So lots to cover today. Luke and Isaac, let's get into it, you catastrophe.
Dwight Vogt:Luke and Dwight.
Scott Allen:Luke and Isaac. I'm sorry, Isaac, my son called earlier today.
Dwight Vogt:Sorry, dwight Sorry.
Scott Allen:Dwight.
Luke Allen:Dwight, dwight.
Scott Allen:I got you. You're right there in front of me. Let's get into it. Luke, do you have a definition in front of us, and maybe you could start with that and tell us a little bit about the concept and where it came from?
Luke Allen:Wow, that's a lot of pressure after the amount of hype you've put on this word, the most important word you've never heard of. That shapes all reality.
Scott Allen:The most important word you've never heard of, that's it.
Luke Allen:I believe this word was coined by JRR Tolkien. That's correct, I believe this word was coined by JRR Tolkien, that's correct.
Luke Allen:The greatest author of all time, next to God. Since we're hyping him up so much today, this is a word that he yeah, he made up, but I'll just read you this quote from him. Actually, instead you catastrophe defined. This is in a letter from JRR Tolkien. It's made up of two Greek words U in Greek means good, and then catastrophe, of course, is destruction or a sudden turn of events. And then the quote says the sudden happy turn in a story which pierces you with a joy that brings tears, which, I argue it, is the highest function of a fiction story. So eucatastrophe is that key moment in any fairy tale, in any story that catches the reader off guard with something good. So we all know, when we're reading a book, when we're reading a story, and there's things just there's no way out, right For the main character, for the protagonist, and it's dark, and they're stuck in the forest and it's nighttime, the enemies are closing in on them and their best friend left them, and then, all of a sudden, something great happens. That's a eucatastrophe. So you can think of plenty of examples of this. Of course, in Tolkien's writing he uses this theme all the time and he's playing, which is which is why I think his stories. Have you know graphs? The graphs of mind of so many people is he'll lead you down a road and you can. You start to think, oh, I know where this is going, right, we always love to do that when watching movies or reading books. Oh, I know what's going to happen next. But then it's that whoop tricked you, you know, and then something, something good happens. Um, and then he says Tolkien says, this theme is not only true in fairy stories, but it's so true that it's true in real life.
Luke Allen:So oftentimes fairy tales are, you know kind of they're supposed to mirror what we think is the truest story of real life. Tell me if I'm not explaining this well, guys, I'm not a literary expert here of real life. Tell me if I'm not explaining this, well, guys, I'm not a literary expert here, but oftentimes what we love about fiction is because it touches on something that we see as true in real life, or themes that we spot throughout real life. And because of that, he says that the reason eucatastrophe hits us so deeply is because we see it in our own lives and we hope to see it in our own lives. And we hope to see it in our own lives and we've seen it throughout history, and we've seen it throughout his story, god's story, because God is a God of eucatastrophe, great Luke thanks.
Scott Allen:I think Tolkien, if I'm not mistaken, defines or coins and defines the word in his short book on fairy stories, yep. So if you want to read his own words on this, you can pick that book up. It's an excellent little book. I recommend it highly. And yeah, luke, just to add a little bit or to clarify a little bit of what you've said. I thought you laid it out well. But yeah, the Greek word eu, the prefix, means good, and obviously we know the word catastrophe, in other words something that's horrible, destructive, hopeless. And then there's a turning point, this sudden turning point, and then all that was so bad and terrible is reversed. Suddenly, that idea that sudden reversal is eucatastrophe. So, dwight, why don't you throw in your thoughts on this, just in terms of just helping people understand the concept?
Dwight Vogt:Well, I was thinking of you as well. We think of the Eucharist, which is real positive. Did you want to talk about examples already, because I hadn't thought so much about the definition, as much as just what I hear.
Scott Allen:Yeah, I want to go to you see this theme in Scripture. I want to look at examples in Scripture as well as Tolkien's own writings, particularly the Lord of the Rings. So I think you, absolutely we can start doing that, because that's how you begin to understand it and see it Okay.
Dwight Vogt:Well, for me, I mean, obviously, the most obvious is just the disciples on the day of Christ's crucifixion sitting there going, okay, that didn't happen. Not only didn't it happen, but it's completely gone. There's no hope. We're back to square one, maybe behind that, in terms of having a Messiah, a King, salvation. It was all gone. And of course, then the eucatastrophe was Sunday morning and all at once things were different.
Scott Allen:Yeah, I think, when I—Dwight it's. You know, that is the central one of Scripture, right there.
Scott Allen:You're referring to the death and resurrection of Jesus. When I think of eucatastrophe, what I—and I did this, I actually created a little table here it always starts with a catastrophe, something that's so horrible that it leads to despair. It's a situation that seems utterly hopeless. All is lost. And then there's a turning point. Right, this kind of important turning point, that's the second thing that you need to understand. And then that turning point flips everything upside down. All that was bad becomes good. So Tolkien himself, just like you said, dwight, he called he said that the incarnation, the coming of Christ, was the eucatastrophe of all of history. And then he said the resurrection is the eucatastrophe of the incarnation. So it's that resurrection. You know the hopelessness and the despair that the disciples felt as they watched Jesus be carried away by, you know, the Roman soldiers, and then eventually get beaten and nailed up on the cross and die, just that utter despair that caused them to flee. And you know, and then, how that suddenly flipped, that you know that the third day, you know, jesus his eyes opened. That's the turning point. He gets up, stands up, casts off the burial clothes and everything turns around. And this is why, by the way, I call this the central theme of the Bible, of the biblical worldview, and that means of all of reality. That's how big the concept is, because you know, when we talk about biblical worldview, we talk about it in terms of this broad story, this true story of reality that begins at creation, but then there's a catastrophe at the fall. Everything is destroyed, all these relationships, our relationship with God, ourselves, with other people, with creation itself, all is broken and all the despair and death and murder and all that's bad, all the evil in the world, comes out of that. That's the catastrophe. But that's not the end of the story. Then we move to redemption. That's the eucatastrophe. Okay, and often in the Bible you hear this phrase but God, but God, and that's the turning point. Whenever you see but God, and that's the turning point, whenever it's that you see that word, but that's the turning point. And then everything begins to be kind of unwound. All that was broken becomes unwound and becomes restored again. That's this amazing concept of redemption. So it's deeply biblical, in fact. Let me and I don't want to dominate too much here, but I think this Ephesians 2 captures it completely clearly and I just want to read it, ephesians 2, one of my favorite sections of Scripture, I think one of the most powerful, profound sections of the New Testament.
Scott Allen:Let me begin with the catastrophe. It starts in 2, verses 1 through 3. You were dead. That's a catastrophe. You were dead in your transgressions and sins in which you used to live, when you followed the ways of this world and the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh, following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving wrath. That's the catastrophe. That's the situation that we found ourselves in dead, deserving of wrath, no hope. Here's the turning point, verse 7. But because of God's great love for us, god who is rich in mercy Okay, that's the turning point.
Scott Allen:Then the eucatastrophe goes on in verse 5 through 7.
Scott Allen:God made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our transgressions.
Scott Allen:It is by grace you have been saved and God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms, in Christ Jesus, in order that in the ages to come, he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed to us in the kindness, his kindness for us in Christ Jesus, for it is by grace you have been saved. This is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, and we'll talk a little bit more about that kind of who brings about the eucatastrophe. Here it's. This is a gift from God, not of works so that no one can boast, for we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works with God. Not of works so that no one can boast, for we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works with God, which God prepared in advance for us to do. So you see that right there and you see this concept of eucatastrophe right here. The catastrophe sin. We're dead, we're deserving of wrath, no hope, the turning point, but God, and then the eucatastrophe.
Scott Allen:He raised us up, he made us alive, he saved us, he redeemed us. So this is the idea there, dwight, not to belabor it, but you see it there and you see it through all of Scripture.
Dwight Vogt:That's the conceptual eucatastrophe. That's our reality and it's interesting. I was listening to a podcast this morning and a guy was sharing his testimony about how he was an alcoholic and hit his low point. He had his catastrophe where it was like all is done, all is lost, and then met Christ. I finally walked into an AA meeting and through that met a brother who helped him meet Christ and that was his turning point and it all changed.
Scott Allen:Luke, go back if you don't mind and talk a little bit more about Tolkien and fairy stories and the power of that. Why were they studying fairy stories Do you know anything about? I think you know about the way that Tolkien influenced CS Lewis on this as well. It was quite powerful in his conversion. Do you know that story?
Luke Allen:I mean, you have other children that could explain that a lot better than I could, but I could take a stab at it.
Luke Allen:Go for it. Well, just using again the clear, one of the clearest examples in tolkien or lewis's writings is in the lion, the witch and the wardrobe. We all know the example there of when lewis is um in that, in that final battle of the lion, the witch and wardrobe and peter's leading the army down on the white witch, and all of a sudden the battle turns, seems like, and she's, she's on the offensive and she's turning all the Narnians into stone statues. And then all of a sudden, out of nowhere they thought he was dead Aslan appears up on the ridge.
Luke Allen:And not only is he alive and back and attacking, but he also went and pillaged the White Witch's castle and turned all of his allies from stone back into creatures and they're charging in and theyaged the White Witch's castle and turned all of his allies from stone back into creatures and they're charging in, they win the battle.
Scott Allen:That's right.
Luke Allen:So Tolkien obviously had a pretty good influence on Lewis with this, with this concept. I'm looking at a quote here from on fairy stories from Tolkien here and I think he explains it better than I could. Um, this again is just his understanding of eucatastrophe. The gospels contain a fairy story or a story of a larger kind which embraces all of the essences of a fairy story. They contain many marvelous particular articles, beautiful and moving, mythical in their perfect self-containing significance. And among the marvelous is the greatest and most complete conceivable eucatastrophes the birth of Christ and the eucatastrophe of man's history. And the resurrection is the eucatastrophe of the story of the incarnation. This story begins and ends in joy.
Luke Allen:So yeah, back to CS Lewis. Tolkien, who is a strong Catholic, was a big part, a big role in Lewis's ultimate conversion. And Lewis, of course, was an atheist growing up and had a lot of questions for Tolkien. And during their time there at Oxford they were both writers, they were part of that club, the Inklings, and they met at the Eagle and Child that we've been to and had fish and chips at.
Luke Allen:And during their time together, tolkien helped convert Lewis, and then Lewis, of course, went on and wrote a lot of books about Eucatastrophe.
Scott Allen:Yeah, they were both scholars that had studied the ancient mythologies, particularly Greek and Norse mythologies, and they noticed, as they studied these ancient stories, you know, and Beowulf in the English tradition is that, you know, there was this kind of fairytale turning point. You know, they lived happily ever after that kind of idea that things were dark and then suddenly something happened out of nowhere that turned everything around and good prevailed. So they noticed that this was a theme throughout. You know a lot of these, you know ancient stories. You know, at the time that they first began to interact, lewis was an atheist, you know, and yet he loved these fairy stories because we all love right stories of redemption.
Scott Allen:And the turning point for him is when, I think that, you know, as I understand it, tolkien took Lewis for a long walk around Oxford one night and explained to him carefully that the Bible is the true fairy story. This is a fairy story, you know. The whole thing is it's a story of redemption of all that's wrong, turning right through Christ, but it's—so it follows all of that same format, but it happens to be true and it's written on our hearts. That's why we all love it so much. And that was the turning point for Lewis Go ahead Dwight.
Dwight Vogt:Well, yeah, it's not just that it follows that, but it is that. I mean, we love redemptive movies, we love redemptive books. We love redemptive stories because there was wired into the reality of the world and the universe redemption at the beginning. I mean we are sourced in redemption.
Scott Allen:Yeah.
Dwight Vogt:So we love it. It's amazing how many you know I don't like Woody Allen's movies because there's no redemption ever in a Woody Allen movie. That's such a good point, dwight, yeah.
Scott Allen:No, I think, when you look at worldviews, you know the worldview of nihilism, which comes out of secularism and atheism, is essentially catastrophe, with no eucatastrophe, there's no redemption, it's just all bad and then you die and then you die. And this is why you know, if you ever watch a story where there isn't a redemptive element to it, a nihilistic story, there's something inside of you in your stomach that's just like oh, I can't even hardly go to bed tonight and sleep you know, it's, just it's gut-wrenching.
Scott Allen:You know I've got to have some redemption on here. It all ties together, you know nihilism, no eucatastrophe and suicide, you know. And of course Satan's behind that, right, that's what he wants is to destroy. But thankfully he doesn't have the final word, right? You know, there is a eucatastrophe, there is a turning point, there is hope, there always is redemption, and this is just true.
Luke Allen:It's true for our own lives, and it's true for all of creation as well. Yeah, I will say, though, like what Tolkien says the key to any great fairy story is eucatastrophe, and on the opposite side of the Woody Allen movies is the movies that are just so predictable. You know, the good guy comes and he saves the day, and you can totally predict there's no good eucatastrophe in there where you're, you know you're, you're like so convinced there's no way out of this.
Luke Allen:It's just ah, they can't, they can't get out, and then there's a eucatastrophe that you totally don't see coming, and that's fun you know that's what makes a good fairy story.
Dwight Vogt:There's good stories and there's really mediocre stories.
Scott Allen:Well, there's really mediocre stories. Well, and speaking of stories, I mean this is why so many of the stories in the Bible, and the Old Testament in particular, are so powerful, you know, they speak so powerfully to us because they're stories of eucatastrophe. And I want to go there next, guys, if we could, let's look at some of the examples in the Bible that you see kind of clearly this concept of eucatastrophe. Obviously, you see it in the biggest, broadest picture in what we already talked about the incarnation and the resurrection. That's the turning point of all of human history. But we see it in all sorts of other stories as well. So let's get into it. Who wants to start us on that?
Dwight Vogt:I've got several here I'd like to share too. I don't know if you want to go chronologically, but my favorite is Esther. Yeah, go for it. I love Esther because you know she's faced with.
Scott Allen:Do this if you don't mind, Sorry to cut you off. Catastrophe, turning point, eucatastrophe in that story. Yeah Well, now I've got to remember the whole story.
Dwight Vogt:Well, you know who's the protagonist In brief, in brief.
Scott Allen:Who's the bad guy there, nahum?
Dwight Vogt:No, the Persian king right? Well, the Persian king is, but the real bad guy is oh yeah, Haman, Haman okay, so Haman is just against the Jews and against Esther. Ultimately, he doesn't know it, but convinces the king to have a decree where they can slaughter all the Jews. The first genocide.
Scott Allen:Genocide. That's the catastrophe.
Dwight Vogt:That's the catastrophe and it's real and it's eminent, because the king is sovereign and he has decreed it he's decreed it no hope, and Haman is set to become the one to implement it and also to be glory to glory in it. And at the end of the day, everything changes because Esther.
Scott Allen:What's the turning point there?
Dwight Vogt:Dwight, the turning point is, you tell me. I think it's Esther going to the king with her bravery and saying king.
Scott Allen:Absolutely the most famous line from that story. Right, if I perish, I perish. If I perish, I perish. You were born for such a time as this, says her uncle. So, it's one and, by the way, it's key here. Dwight, I don't want to keep cutting you up, but she makes.
Scott Allen:There's a decision here, and this is really important there's a decision God's at work behind the scenes. There's a providential aspect to this, of course, that's the key aspect, but there's a human agency involved in it as well, and this is Esther. This is Mordecai, esther's uncle, saying you need to do this, you need to go and, if willing, sacrifice your life to get the king to turn this around.
Dwight Vogt:Well, he was the supportive counselor, he was the supportive element, but she was the risk taker. Absolutely she's the one that finally said okay, if I perish, I perish.
Scott Allen:So that's the turning point with the eucatastrophe.
Dwight Vogt:And then it all turns around because the king says, okay, I will allow you to arm yourselves. And then, of course, there's the story with Haman planning to create a gallows to hang. Mordecai ends up hanging on it himself, so everything is made right.
Scott Allen:Yep, it all unwinds and becomes good. It all unwinds Yep, that's eucatastrophe.
Dwight Vogt:The snowball that was going downhill or the rock that was going to crush the others crushed the protagonist.
Scott Allen:Perfect, perfect example, dwight, and actually one I hadn't thought of either. It's Great.
Dwight Vogt:Luke. What about you? What's next? Fire Luke.
Luke Allen:Well, my favorite. There's a bunch. It's funny how many of them are.
Scott Allen:There's so many.
Luke Allen:It seems like the Jewish nation is on the brink of destruction. It's crazy, and they're still around today.
Scott Allen:But in Esther I thought of Living, proof of eucatastrophe, that's right.
Luke Allen:Yeah, exactly, Look at their history and you'll find eucatastrophe. I yeah, exactly Look at their history and you'll find eucatastrophe.
Scott Allen:I thought of the Red Sea. You know Moses, the story of Moses Faced down by Pharaoh's army. And they come to the Red Sea, ginormous sea.
Luke Allen:What are we going to do've got a bunch, my favorite one I'm coming up to, so you have that one. Obviously Radchak, meshach and Abednego and the fiery furnace, you know, I'm sure those guys were in quite the catastrophe.
Scott Allen:Rather than just say the stories, let's just do kind of a quick unpack. And if we could just do it in the framework of catastrophe, turning point, eucatastrophe, okay well, let me do my favorite one I have a feeling this is your favorite too, dad.
Luke Allen:The Siege of Jerusalem. This is just an incredible story. I just read it again today in 2 Chronicles 32. Hezekiah is the king Hezekiah. Okay, the story of Hezekiah. Hezekiah is the king of Jerusalem. And then during that time Assyria was kind of one of the world, the great leaders of the world, and they were on this rampage and they were attacking Judea.
Scott Allen:They defeated all the surrounding cities. They defeated all the surrounding cities.
Luke Allen:This is King Sennacherib and his armies. Yes, and they're just one by one coming closer and closer to Jerusalem and there's no way out. Jerusalem is weak at that point anyways. So, hezekiah, he goes and he's looking for and this is a time of Isaiah too. Isaiah is the prophet. Yes, and he goes to Isaiah. What are we going to do? What are we going to do? There's nothing we can do. The army's coming, they siege Jerusalem, they cut off all the water supplies and they're surrounded. There's no way out. There's clearly a catastrophe. Yes, 185,000 Assyrian soldiers are at the gates of Jerusalem and then God says you know what I'm going to do. I'm going to send one angel down into the camps of the Assyrians and in one night, that one angel kills 185,000 Assyrians. Yes, hezekiah wakes up the next morning, boom.
Scott Allen:They're all dead.
Luke Allen:They're all dead and everything unwinds you can kind of just flow right past that one. But oh my goodness, it's crazy, Super powerful story. No, they're so powerful Well, here.
Scott Allen:Let me run through a few that I came up with and you guys will have more, but let me just kind of quickly just kind of skim through some of these. So let's talk, and I'm going to do a little bit of a chronological kind of go through the story of Noah. You see the flood coming and the destruction of the whole world through this flood. That's the catastrophe. What's the turning point? In the Bible it says but Noah was a righteous man. That's the turning point. But God raised up Noah and he built an ark, and that ark is the eucatastrophe. It's the redemption of Noah, his family and the animals to start this world anew.
Scott Allen:So there's that story, the story of Abraham. Take your son, your only son, whom you love, and sacrifice him. That's the catastrophe. That's a true catastrophe, and hopeless for Abraham in a sense that he had him bound and put up on that altar and the knife was ready to go down. The turning point as he's about to plunge the knife he notices a ram caught by his horns in the thicket and then Isaac is spared, the ram is sacrificed and Isaac goes on to be the heir of the great nation of Israel and of the church. And Isaac goes on to be the heir of the great nation of Israel and of the church Story of Joseph thrown into a pit by his brothers left to die. That's the catastrophe.
Dwight Vogt:And then the catastrophe continues. He has multiple catastrophes, yeah then, the catastrophe continues.
Scott Allen:He's rescued by slave traders, he's sold into slavery in Egypt, he's betrayed by Potiphar's wife and he's thrown into a dungeon and he's forgotten Like pretty bad catastrophe.
Dwight Vogt:Double catastrophe.
Scott Allen:Double catastrophe. This is one of my favorite stories in the Scripture too, the story of Joseph. And then I was trying to think what the turning point was there. I think it was while he's in the dungeon.
Luke Allen:What is it guys? It's the guys that were in there with him, the guy.
Scott Allen:Yeah, these two fellow prisoners.
Luke Allen:Yeah, the fellow prisoner got out and.
Scott Allen:Pharaoh has a dream and he cannot explain it. Oh, that's right. It's when Pharaoh has a dream and he can't find anyone to interpret it. This is the turning point. And then that guy goes oh.
Luke Allen:I remember this guy in prison who actually could interpret dreams. I have to tell you this, but two years ago, guy in prison who actually could interpret dreams, yeah.
Scott Allen:That was a turning point, and you know.
Scott Allen:Joseph's number two in the greatest empire of the world, he's raised up to number two, the right-hand man of Pharaoh, the second most powerful man in the world, and God uses him to rescue the entire world, it says in the Bible, from this great famine. So there it is there. You know, luke, you mentioned the Red Sea. I think the whole story of Exodus is actually. This is a eucatastrophe story. Obviously, the catastrophe is just the fact that Israel was in Egypt and they were forced into slavery, and then it gets even worse. Pharaoh says I'm going to kill all firstborn sons because they're growing too powerful and large. So there's a genocide, and it seems utterly hopeless. He's commanded this. It's kind of like you're saying, dwight, the story of Esther, right, this is a command from a king for a genocide. It's kind of done, it's a done deal.
Scott Allen:The turning point here, though, is Moses' mother. She disobeys that decree, and she puts Moses as an infant into the basket and puts him out onto the waters of the Nile River. That's the turning point, and all of that sets the table for the dramatic exodus. And the exodus, this dramatic exodus that, by the way, again, it's God at work miraculously, but it's also God working through Moses, and all of that leads to this dramatic exodus, this escape from Egypt. They just all flee and become and move into this land of freedom, and the story of the Red Sea is a kind of a story within a story. There, that's also this powerful story of eucatastrophe, and then, you know, there's so many. One more, though because I love this, is one of my favorite stories in the Bible is the story of the book of Ruth, and you know the story is this woman, naomi. You know this Jewish woman who is forced to flee because of this famine. Right, am I getting this right? There's this famine that comes upon—.
Dwight Vogt:Well, she loses her two sons.
Scott Allen:Yeah, but—well, at first she has to flee right to a foreign land, right because of the famine. So she becomes a refugee. This is a catastrophe Anybody who's a refugee can speak to that. She becomes a refugee in a foreign land and then her two sons die and she's essentially left with these two daughters or three daughters-in-law, two or three, and the two of the daughters-in-law, you know, essentially leave her as well. So she's in a foreign land, you know, completely impoverished, without hope. And then the turning point is but Ruth right, ruth, her daughter-in-law says I won't leave you, I'll be with you. You know, and there's the most famous line you know from that book is it's, you know, ruth's covenant to Naomi about how I will be faithful, I'll never leave you. You know where you die, I will die. And that turning point leads them to have a eucatastrophe of returning to Israel, meeting Boaz, you know, being redeemed by him and his family, and eventually Boaz and Ruth go on to become heirs of David and eventually Jesus. And so everything turns around. So what other ones, guys?
Scott Allen:I mean, when you start thinking about it, it's kind of crazy like how much this theme is just repeated over and over again Go ahead, Dwight.
Dwight Vogt:Yeah, we can talk through multiple illustrations and examples but why are we talking about this? We'll get to that, yeah. What difference does all this make for us? Okay, I want to get to that point.
Scott Allen:Why are we talking about eucatastrophe? What difference?
Luke Allen:Well, I have some thoughts on that. I want to get your thoughts on it too.
Scott Allen:I think it actually matters a lot for our lives, really a lot.
Luke Allen:Hi friends, Thanks again for joining us today. I hope that you are enjoying this discussion and I hope that it is giving you hope, because hope is really what we are talking about today. I just wanted to give you guys a quick update on this podcast. Ideas have Consequences as we move forward into 2025. This coming year, we are excited to continue to bring you weekly episodes with guests and on topics that bring you unique insights on your Christian walk and how to live it out in your daily life, so that your worldview can continue to heal, bless and disciple your nation.
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Scott Allen:Dwight, any more from you on the scripture, you know, because we see this as a key theme of the entire Scripture, but also in story after story in the Scriptures Any other examples? And I just want to encourage our listeners to start looking, read the Bible through the lens of eucatastrophe and just be amazed at how often you see this theme in the Bible. Any more from you, Dwight?
Dwight Vogt:Well, in a sense, Jesus basically walked this earth for three years performing eucatastrophes.
Scott Allen:Right, exactly that's what he did.
Dwight Vogt:He became the turning point in many people's lives. I mean the man was laying by the side of the road crippled and the next thing you know he's up and walking. The blind man is seeing, so he's a. He's a. I mean just a litany of.
Scott Allen:That's what he does. Is you? Yeah, that's what he does. He's the you in the catastrophe that's right.
Luke Allen:Yeah, exactly, well said yeah, the revelation lays lays hints of a big one that's coming down the road. Yeah, that's right.
Scott Allen:That's right, luke, and I think even taking the theme and applying it forward, this isn't just a theme in history, but this is the theme, again, of reality. So that means we expect to see it in the future as well. And I think in Revelation that's another story of eucatastrophe, no question. You know, we have this great tribulation, this great catastrophe that is yet to come, but it will not be the end. We already know how this story is going to end. We see, right at the worst, most hopeless part of this great catastrophe that's yet to come, hopeless part of this great catastrophe that's yet to come. You see a coming on the clouds, right, jesus coming down, riding that white horse with that tattoo on his leg, king of Kings and Lord of Lords, you know. So that's the turning point. And then we see the new heavens and the new earth. That's for sure, that's for certain, okay, which is kind of an amazing thing.
Dwight Vogt:It's interesting. As you're talking, I'm thinking of just where this sits. We're talking about the Christian examples of eucatastrophe through the Bible and all the way into the Revelation, and I was thinking, well, how does this fit with the rest of the world's philosophies and religions? You know hinduism. Do they have eucatastra? I'm thinking no, they have karma and it's so uncertain. I'm thinking of anima. Does animism? Do they have eucatastra? I'm thinking no. They have control by spirits and they're capricious and you never have any idea what's going to happen. You really don't have eucatastra. You don't have it in um secularism, as I mentioned.
Scott Allen:Yeah, there's just no redemption.
Dwight Vogt:It's just yeah, there's no other religion that has a redemptive element.
Scott Allen:No, such an important point, dwight. I think looking at this through the lens of other worldviews is also super helpful. I was doing that again this morning. Just how do you see it or not see it? And it's really not in other worldviews and you don't see it. So it gets you thinking of just how powerful the true story is, the biblical story, and thank God for that right that at the heart of reality is, you know, not just evil and catastrophe, but turning points and redemption you know Wow. I'm so glad.
Dwight Vogt:I'm thinking of even Buddhism. There's no sense of you will ever get good changes in this catastrophic world. You just finally disappear.
Scott Allen:That's right.
Dwight Vogt:You just disappear, yeah, I was thinking of Marxism, dwight.
Scott Allen:In Marxism he borrowed a lot of Christian elements in a very secularized form, and so he tries to kind of bring about a eucatastrophe in this worldview by kind of revolution. Overthrow the oppressors. Through revolution we will. It's kind of, we in our own human strength will bring about the good that we long for. But because God's not involved, there is no God and it's done in human strength, it isn't actually. It never leads to a eucatastrophe, it's just a furthering catastrophe.
Dwight Vogt:It becomes even worse.
Scott Allen:It becomes even worse, right, exactly you ended up with Stalin yeah, exactly, or Mao or you name it.
Luke Allen:Millions and millions of people, yeah exactly.
Scott Allen:And all the gulags and death? Yeah and yeah, it's just an ongoing catastrophe in Marxism.
Scott Allen:But, they're trying kind of inhuman—this is the way I kind of viewed, that is, they're trying inhuman strength, you know, and wisdom to bring about a eucatastrophe, you know, but it doesn't work. So, yeah, let's go on. I want to talk about what it means for us, but before we do that I just want to, you know, Tolkien brought this concept in and made it the center of his greatest novel and one of the greatest novels of all time, the Lord of the Rings, the film series. Most people have seen that it's right at the center of it, this concept of eucatastrophe, and it's throughout it. You can see many examples of it.
Scott Allen:And he got it from the Bible, he got it from you know, from reality, and that's what makes, I'm convinced, guys, the Lord of the Rings such a powerful story. That we all love so much is because—and Tolkien says as much in the writing of it. You know that his ideas for this story come from the powerful true story and especially this concept of eucatastrophe, and so he weaves it throughout the story and it's so moving. I know, Dwight, you said you're not so much a geek on this as much as Luke and I are. So you can chime in, but, Luke, how do you see it in the Lord of the Rings? Just briefly here before we move on.
Luke Allen:Do you want all the examples I can think of off the top of my head? You could maybe start with one or two.
Scott Allen:Yeah.
Luke Allen:Maybe your favorite. Let's do that. Well, this is, this is one that I think, if you, if you've read the books, you get, more so than people who've watched the movies. Because, yes, they, they skewed this scene in the movie, uh, and changed and changed what tolkien originally wrote it as. But the biggest, the biggest moment in the whole book, of course, is I'm gonna blow this for people who haven't read the book or watch the movie but, um, spoiler alert they actually win in the end, crazy, and uh, the ring of power they actually destroy in mountain doom, which is the, the quest that they're on throughout all three books.
Luke Allen:And at that final moment, frodo's in midst of, in, in the center of Mordor. Uh, the ring is at its absolute most powerful, so it's got a grip on him that's so strong that Frodo actually can't even drop the ring into, uh, into Mount Doom and destroy it, um, which is what he's been trying to do the entire time. And you're just like come on, frodo, drop the ring. You know, accomplish the quest, accomplish the mission. And at the same time, you know, there's the battle happening at the black gate and it looks like everyone's going to be destroyed. And you're like come on, frodo. You're so close, you know, and the catastrophe seems so near, because he's turning away, he's going to take the ring for himself and then, all of a sudden, an unlikely character shows up in gollum, who grabs the ring from frodo, even while he bites off frodo's finger, who's wearing the ring?
Luke Allen:and then, in the book, at least gollum, and his joy is dancing, because he's he's, you know, overcome by joy that he finally got the ring again. And he actually just slips simply and falls and golem's the one that saves the day and, uh, accomplishes the quest the ring is destroyed and everything.
Scott Allen:The enemies are defeated and everything becomes good again uh yeah, I, you know, lord of the rings is a series of major battles and there's a theme in them.
Scott Allen:There's the bad guys and the good guys.
Scott Allen:You know, the bad guys are the forces of Mordor, sauron, and in the battles they're always more powerful, they're always on the cusp of wiping out the good guys utterly.
Scott Allen:It always is this way, and then there's a turning point and then there's a eucatastrophe. So you see it, for example, at the battle of helms deep, you know, in the second book, um, the people of rohan, the good guys, are forced to retreat into their fortress because they're being attacked by the forces of sauron and, uh, sauraman, and they're forced to retreat into this fortress. Then they're attacked with this overwhelming army just, you know, way too vast for them to ever defeat. It seems utterly hopeless and that army does indeed scale the walls and enter into the you know, the fortress, and they are forced to retreat. The good guys are forced to retreat into the very innermost part of that fortress, into the keep. And when all seems completely hopeless and the battle is lost, there's the turning point, and it happens when Aragorn, the king he's not yet the king, but the good guy turns to King Theoden in this great moment, and he says let us ride out to meet them, let us ride out to meet them. And then Theoden responds yes for blood and glory.
Scott Allen:That's the turning point.
Scott Allen:And they charge. They open up the gate and they charge two people with a few people following them, against an overwhelming odd, and as they charge out, it's just for they, in their own minds, they think it's hopeless. We're going to get slaughtered, but we're going to go out dying and fighting as they charge out. Here comes Gandalf, appearing on the hillside right In the movie. This is the famous scene with the sunlight behind him, right, and that's the turning point. And then everything turns around. So that's a theme that's repeated over and over again. You know, throughout the Battle of Gondor, you know, you name it. There's always a catastrophe, a turning point and then a eucatastrophe. Luke, any more on you? I kind of want to wrap this up. Yeah, I mean there's a bunch, but we don't need to belabor the point I think anyone that loves the book will be able to remember those points.
Scott Allen:There's a quote that Tolkien puts on the lips of one of the great characters of this story, sam Gamgee Samwise Gamgee, and I think it captures eucatastrophe. This is Tolkien expressing the very concept of eucatastrophe through Sam in this quote. He says Sam says he's speaking to Frodo here. It's like the great stories, mr Frodo, the ones that really mattered, the great stories, the ones that really mattered, full of darkness and danger they were, and sometimes you didn't want to know the end, because how could there be a happy ending, how could the world go back to the way it was when so much bad had happened? That's the catastrophe, but in the end it's only a passing thing. The shadow, even darkness, must pass. A new day will come, and when the sun shines, it will shine out the clearer.
Scott Allen:I know now folks in those stories had lots of chances of turning back. Only they didn't. They kept going because they were holding on to something that there's some good in this world, mr Frodo, and it's worth fighting for it's almost scriptural I so powerful so powerful, it's so true, you know, when he says that, it touches us deeply, doesn't it touches your heart.
Scott Allen:It's like, yes, that's true, you know, and that's true of the great stories, just like tolkien understood, and it's true of lord of the rings, a great story.
Luke Allen:So yeah, and it hits us so deeply because we want it to be true for ourselves. You know, and that's why that's why those other worldviews, like you were saying, ideas have consequences and man, their consequence is a lack of hope in a lot of those and the idea that eucatastrophe exists for Christians and that this world's not just material. You know, we don't believe in the enlightenment myth that we can explain everything, because sometimes you can't explain eucatastrophe, it comes out of nowhere and we can have hope in that you know, and we can say, yeah, things look pretty bad, but that, I mean, that's where faith comes in, right it's.
Luke Allen:we know that God exists, so he's given us enough to build a good, strong, solid faith upon. There's plenty of evidence there for God, but then still, you just don't know sometimes and that's where that faith comes in. But you can hope for that eucatastrophe because we've seen him do it time and time again. You're going where we need to go next week here. Sorry, I'm getting ahead of myself.
Scott Allen:No, you're not, that's exactly where we need to go, to wrap up, is what difference does it make for our lives and the way we live? And you're expressing it really well here. Hope in the biblical sense isn't oh gosh, I hope something will happen, I hope it works out. You know, I have no idea, but I hope you know. No, it's this kind of assurance that it's going to work out, that's this sure hope that we have, and so we can take courageous action, even in the face of overwhelming odds or whatever it might be, because we have that kind of solid hope. And where does the hope come from? I think one of the places that it comes from is the eucatastrophe itself. This is the theme of Scripture, and we've seen example after example after example of it in the stories of the Scripture. So that's true for my life and your life as well. In the face of, you know, truly catastrophic circumstances, there's hope, and that should drive you and the choices that you make right.
Dwight Vogt:Well, I've been reflecting on just this is fascinating and I've never thought about it before. So thanks for inviting me to join this one, because it makes me think and I love to think. But yeah, I'm thinking. Wow. Four thoughts to what it means to me. One is this idea that it's baked into our reality, that redemption is baked in Eucatastrophe is baked into what it means. I mean, it's just the reality of the universe. God created it. He's going to turn good out of bad. He's going to redeem evil, or redeem us from evil. The second level is just Revelation 22, that we have an assurance of a real eucatastrophe, that that's where we end up.
Dwight Vogt:We have absolute assurance of that in Revelation 22. Yes, so that's wonderful. And another third thought is just that we also have that potential throughout life. You know, we see it in Esther, we see it in Joseph, we see it. God intervenes.
Dwight Vogt:He doesn't always, but we know he can and we know he does, and we can hope for that and we can pray for that and it's okay, it's okay, and to live in hope for the day, not just for Revelation 22. And then the last one is this idea that Jesus was the you and the catastrophe. And I'm thinking how many of us can be the person who actually turns somebody else's catastrophe into something good? We're the ones that say, if I perish, I perish, and we're the ones that run into the battle. Are we willing to do that, to be the you and the catastrophe, because that's part of our calling as individuals? Just some thoughts.
Scott Allen:Your last one if I could just pick up on that, because that's the one I wanted to underscore too, dwight is that the turning point is the thing that I think is very powerful. It speaks to me personally, anyways and the turning point is always this combination of human agency or human choice very courageous human choice against overwhelming odds and God's providential hand. It's always both. You know, it's God working in history providentially, but he does it through human beings, through you and I, and he does it through the small decisions that we make and in the Bible you especially see this even through small people, insignificant people, and so what that says is your life really matters. People like Esther and Ruth, peter in the Lord of the Rings, the hobbits right, you know these small people. They are key to the turning point. What does that mean for our lives? Your life matters, but when you face those overwhelming odds and everything seems hopeless and it seems like evil is going to win and carry the day, it has all the momentum, you face a choice. You can despair, it's hopeless, let's just give up, but that's not the right response. The right response is to see it in the light in the framework of eucatastrophe, trust in God and make a courageous decision and fight right, push back. You see this in Lord of the Rings.
Scott Allen:My favorite parts of Lord of the Rings are this part. It always sends shivers up my spine and it just makes me want to stand up and cheer. It's where, you know. Again, I mentioned Aragorn at Helm's Deep. Let's ride out to meet them. That's the decision. You know. Yes for blood and glory. Right, or at the battle of, you know, the battle of the Black Gate. At the very end there's Gimli, right. You know they decide that they're going to go and charge the Black Gate, right, even though, as Gimli says, there's a small chance of success, there's certainty of death. As Gimli says, there's a small chance of success, there's certainty of death.
Dwight Vogt:What are?
Scott Allen:we waiting for. I love that because that should be the way we respond ideally in these moments. The thing about eucatastrophe that I think is powerful it doesn't deny that evil is real and catastrophes happen, whether it's cancer or, you know, a friend or family member dying, or war, or whatever it happens to be in your own personal life or in your nation. Those are real. It doesn't deny that. But how you respond to that is what this is all about, because that's never going to be the end of it. Okay, and you may not see the good end, the eucatastrophe, on this side.
Scott Allen:It may be on the other side, only that you see it. But it's there and that should shape, that should give you this ability to be courageous and to take action and to trust in God. So your life matters. Just in conclusion, every life matters, even the small person. Their life matters. I'm one of these small people. My life matters, but you've got to make choices, and I think there's many more things we could say. I just want to kind of say that one right now Luke, how about you?
Luke Allen:I don't know if I can add too much to you guys, but yeah, one thing I was just thinking to keep in mind, dad, like you were saying, small chance of success, certainty of death is, yeah, we don't know. We don't know what this life's going to bring us and it could look like pure tragedy, kind of like the story of Jeremiah who just tries to save Israel his whole life and then, just you know, dies and then no one listens to him.
Scott Allen:Radchak, meshach and Abednego they had no idea that God was going to save them in the last minute but they were ready and they said that too in that story, luke, didn't they say yeah, and you know, god can save us, he may not. Or even if he chooses not to right. I love that yeah.
Luke Allen:And that's kind of the story of Stephen too, and his eucatastrophe. And, uh, you know, at the last minute, you know, yes, he did die, but God did give him that miraculous vision, uh, right before they stoned him. And then, of course, you know, next minute for all of us, our life ends in eucatastrophe. Boom, we're in heaven. Wow, that's something to look forward to. So it gives us hope for no matter how dark life can be. So we're not saying, you know, if things get really bad, it's always going to just be like happily ever after. You know it will ultimately, but not exactly, in this life we're not, that's not promised for us.
Scott Allen:But we can have hope in the ultimate ever after, Absolutely For those who have put their faith in Christ and trust in his finished work on the cross for their salvation. There is eternal hope and again it should drive us. We should not be people of despair, never despair, never give up. The bad character in Lord of the Rings, one of the bad characters is Denethor because of that. He sees the vast armies, he sees the catastrophe in front of him, but he despairs and he says it's hopeless. That is not to be our response. Our response is to be the response of Gandalf, you know, to your battle stations right, let's fight, let's go, even if the odds seem hopeless. And I think you know we're three guys, and I do think this speaks particularly to men. You know, it's the way that God wires us. I think we want to be heroes, we want to be strong and courageous and defend and attack an enemy, don't we?
Scott Allen:And I think a lot of young men today. They're lost, they don't have a story that makes sense of their lives, they don't know who they are, and this understanding of eucatastrophe, I think, is the beginning to the road back to what it? Truly means to be a man, isn't it? In some ways, I mean not just for men, this is not just for men, but but I'm I'm speaking as a man, I guess.
Luke Allen:Yeah, meaninglessness is just such a dark, dark thing that, or for the first time in I don't know, the last 20, 50 years I forget the number the expected lifespan is dropping and it's mainly doing so because of suicide. And um, the biggest demographic of suicide is, uh, men. I think it's between ages 20, 35.
Luke Allen:And most of those deaths they attribute to what they call quote unquote deaths of meaninglessness or deaths of despair deaths of despair, deaths of hopelessness, and that's so, and I think, I think this message is just that's exactly the message that these guys need, that they need the eucatastrophe and like we were saying these other worldviews, they don't offer it, they do not, no, and uh, no wonder you're ending up in a place like that. That's, that's you know, nichi. That's eventually what happened to him too, exactly is if god's dead, then suicide, yeah, yeah.
Dwight Vogt:Yeah.
Scott Allen:You answered my question guys.
Dwight Vogt:Thank you. Why do we talk about?
Scott Allen:this? Why do we talk about this? Yeah, I would love to talk more. I also think if I could just add one last thought here before we wrap up.
Scott Allen:I think you know for me I was we had these debates about eschatology, about how things are going to work out in the end, you know, and there's a couple of different schools of thought within the Church on this, and I think the concept of eucatastrophe is a kind of a critique of both of the dominant schools of thought. One school of thought says you know, hey, things are just going to get better and better and better, and at the end Jesus comes back and kind of caps it all off right, this kind of very optimistic view of the end times and of eschatology post-millennial. The problem I have with that is that it denies the catastrophic right, that there really is bad things that are happening in this world and they're going to continue to happen and probably even progress in some ways. You know, it just almost like it's like whistling past that somehow I don't quite get that, like you know, no, there is catastrophe, that's real and it's important not to deny that. Actually, you know, the other side is just the opposite. It's kind of things are going to get worse and worse and worse. Right, and it does have a eucatastrophe, but not on this side of Christ's return. You know, there's no kind of—what you do in this kind of view doesn't really matter, because things are just going to. You know, things are going to go from bad to worse and then the earth is destroyed. You know, so kind of it leads to despair, functionally, I think, and I think the eucatastrophe is a challenge to that. It says that, no, the choices that we make now matter.
Scott Allen:I think it's important to recognize that the story of eucatastrophe is the central theme of the Bible. But there's stories in the Bible over and over again, and I don't think those stories are going to end. They're going to continue into the future, until the great final one, if that makes sense. And so what that says to me is don't ever despair, don't ever think oh, it doesn't matter what I do. That's wrong. So, anyways, I think that you know this idea of eucatastrophe is a critique to both of these schools of thought. I don't know what it leads to in terms of a third way of thinking about eschatology, but that third way is the one I tend to hold on to myself.
Scott Allen:Well, listen, guys, we could just keep talking and it's fun, but this has been a terrific discussion, I sure hope for our listeners this has been helpful and encouraging, and practical too. Again, I just want to come back to something we said earlier. Put this idea in your mind, Mull it over, hold onto it, this concept of eucatastrophe. Look for it in the Bible. You'll see it everywhere and then apply it to your life. How does it apply to your life? Because you are a part of the story, this concept applies to you as well, and we have to build our lives, I think, around it as well.
Luke Allen:Yeah, and you can get pretty practical with this too. I mean, I hear a lot of times Christians, especially in our kind of negative world as we've described. For people before Aaron Wren coined the term, it seems like as a Christian I can't really speak up. You know I can't. There would be a catastrophe if, say, at work, I was honest about what I believed in the morality that God's told me to stand by.
Luke Allen:If I stand up for that, you know I could lose my job, my family could fall apart, wouldn't have enough money to put food on the table. It's like, yeah, sure, maybe those things may happen. But we don't know that for sure and that view to me doesn't consider the eucatastrophe that can happen for just standing up and saying the truth Exactly. Well said, luke, it's similar to Red Shack, meshack and Bend the Go again.
Scott Allen:Yeah, and I'm thinking, as you're saying that, I'm thinking of the turning point in the Cold War, solzhenitsyn, all those stories again. And it's that green grocer who says, yeah, I'm going to take down the sign from my store and I may lose my business, I may get thrown in prison, but I'm going to speak the truth and let the chips fall where they may. And you know the great, you know people who pushed back against the evil empire there. They all said that was the turning point, those decisions that people made. And the only reason that you can make those decisions, I think, is if, in your own worldview, you have this concept of eucatastrophe. So, wow, powerful, all right, good Guys, super great discussion. Thanks Dwight, thanks Luke, and thank you all as well for listening to another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations.
Luke Allen:Thanks for joining us for another episode here on Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. Thanks for joining us for another episode here on Ideas have Consequences. If you would like to learn more about this episode or our ministry, the Disciple Nations Alliance, you can do so by heading over to the episode page, which is linked in the show notes.
Luke Allen:If you're listening to this episode in the United States, then you'll probably recognize next week's guest author, speaker and podcaster, elisa Childers, who will be joining us for a discussion on how Christians can go about discipling their nations during this unique cultural moment that we live in. We're really excited for the discussion. We hope that it is helpful for you Again. That episode will be out next Tuesday, february 4th, at 5 pm Pacific time. Thanks again for your time today. We hope that you have a great rest of your week and if you haven't been able to follow this podcast yet on whatever podcast platform you're listening on, then we hope you'll consider doing so now and until next time. This is Ideas have Consequences the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance.
