Ideas Have Consequences
Everything that we see around us is the product of ideas, of ideologies, of worldviews. That's where everything starts. Worldviews are not all the same, and the differences matter a lot. How do you judge a tree? By its fruits. How do you judge a worldview? By its physical, tangible, observable fruit. The things it produces. Ideas that are noble and true produce beauty, abundance, and human flourishing. Poisonous ideas produce ugliness. They destroy and dehumanize. It really is that simple. Welcome to Ideas Have Consequences, the podcast of Disciple Nations Alliance, where we prepare followers of Christ to better understand the true ideas that lead to human flourishing while fighting against poisonous ideas that destroy nations. Join us, and prepare your minds for action!
Ideas Have Consequences
Christian, Stop Avoiding Politics with Richard Nelson
Should Christians engage in politics? Of course, but how? In this episode, Richard Nelson, author of Christianity and Politics and President of The Commonwealth Policy Center, tackles this critical question. Historically and still today, Christians often fall into one of three inappropriate approaches to political engagement: they avoid politics as irrelevant to “more important” spiritual matters; strive for neutrality by avoiding alignment with any party or candidate; or they focus solely on allegiance to Jesus as King, seeking to ignore earthly government and rulers.
Richard eloquently challenges these views, emphasizing how God's sovereignty extends to politics and culture. He highlights a biblical approach to issues like free speech, the sanctity of life, religious freedom, and fiscal responsibility. Like it or not, the Bible is deeply political, and its principles should guide all public engagement.
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God cares about the material world, he cares about culture, he cares about families, he cares about justice, and it's not an either or. This kind of thinking that you're describing is a dualism. It's the idea that there's a sacred realm and the secular realm and the spiritual. There's this sacred realm and this secular realm and the spiritual. The sacred is elevated above this secular, if you will. God cares about all of life. He cares about our bodies and our souls. He cares about us coming to salvation, but he also cares about how we should live, how we order ourselves in society. He cares about all of it. So it's not an either or, and this means engaging all of life, including in the political realm as well.
Luke Allen:Hi friends, welcome to Ideas have Consequences. The podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. Here on this show we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world, to all the nations, but our mission also includes to be the hands and feet of God, to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected this second part of her mission and today most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.
Scott Allen:Well, welcome again everyone to another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. I'm Scott Allen, I'm the president here, and I am with my good friends and co-workers Daryl Miller and Dwight Vogt.
Scott Allen:Great to see you guys again, hi, and today we are thrilled to have a guest. Richard Nelson is joining us today. Richard is, amongst other things, the author of a new book called Christianity and Politics a Memoir of Spiritual Formation and a Field Guide for Christians in the Public Arena. So, richard, great to have you with us.
Richard Nelson:Thank you so much, Scott. It's great to be on the program with you.
Scott Allen:Yeah, and I'm going to just share a little bit more that I've got here from your bio, Richard, but obviously would love to have you fill in some of the gaps as well. Richard is the founder and the executive director of the Commonwealth Policy Center of Kentucky. Is that correct? Did I get that right, Richard?
Richard Nelson:That's correct.
Scott Allen:Yeah, and well you know, before I go on, just to explain a little bit about what that is.
Richard Nelson:Sure Scott Commonwealth Policy Center started in 2012 with the goal of influencing both the political realm and also the public arena from a biblical worldview. So our goal was to politically to recruit and train and help elect principled conservative candidates to serve in the state legislature. And when I say principled conservative, I mean those who are pro-life, pro-religious freedom, pro-man-woman marriage and pro-fiscal integrity. Those are four pillars of any healthy society. And then when it comes to engaging the public arena, one of the challenges we faced as Christians over the past several decades is the barrier between a secular culture and biblical ideas. And we engage that public arena through newspaper columns, radio programs, television conferences and public speaking events. So we're working in two lanes, but essentially we are working to bring biblical principles back into our culture here in the Commonwealth of Kentucky.
Scott Allen:Through policy and the political process particularly. It sounds like yeah, that's really great. Just a couple more things, just in terms of some background. Richard has a background both in wildlife management as well as politics. He's got degrees in both of those areas. He did earn his master's degree in public policy from Regent University in 1995. And I found this kind of interesting, richard too, that you run an award-winning taxidermy studio in Cadiz, kentucky, and enjoy hunting, fishing and camping. So do I. I love all those things, but I don't do taxidermy, so anyways.
Richard Nelson:I thought that was good. I'll add a footnote, scott. I actually had to close the taxidermy studio several years ago when I ran for office. I had to let go of something and that was the one thing I had to close down Still have a few of my trophies in my office in my home.
Scott Allen:Wow, yeah, I see the word. Formerly here now. Do you fish deer wildlife? What do you do? Yeah, what did you do?
Richard Nelson:Well, I did everything. We're uh we're blessed with a lot of deer and turkey and great fishing, so I did all of that and uh still love the outdoors, scott, I love to hunt and fish and hike and camp and all of that in fact. I'm in uh north franklin county, which the state capital, frankfurt, is just 10 miles away from me, but I'm on a farm and I'm looking out the window at woods and we have a lot of wildlife here, turkey and deer. Now today it's snowing, so probably they're all hunkered down, but I'm still enjoying part of God's creation, at least the view of it.
Scott Allen:Well, that's really cool. We could have you on it another time and talk about the art of taxidermy and beauty, and that would be a very different discussion, but that would be a fun one to have too. So, yeah, we're going to focus primarily on Christian engagement, or how Christians should think about politics, though, and I'm really excited about that. Obviously, we're coming out of a very intense time in our own country here in the United States a very intense political season, a lot of change going on. Just a question too, richard, back to the work of the Commonwealth Policy Center in Kentucky. Is that similar to—I used to live in Arizona, where Darrow and Dwight still live. Obviously we have a group there called the Center for Arizona Policy. That sounds very similar to what you're doing there. Is it related? And there's a group here in Oregon as well that I'm now connecting with. I live in Oregon now. I'm just kind of curious of the connection between these state type of groups. Is there a network or what is the connection?
Richard Nelson:So there is a network of family policy councils. The Center for Arizona Policy is one of about 30 policy councils associated with Focus on the Family. Actually know Kathy Herod, the leader of that group. We actually had lunch together at an event last summer we were at a conference and they're doing great work. So our work is similar to theirs in that when it comes to legislation, we're on the same page. We're pro-life, pro-family, pro-religious freedom, trying to influence the state legislature to embrace God-honoring principles that allow for human flourishing. So that's the similarity, got it. The difference is that and we're not part of that association we work with them and other like-minded groups, but we don't have an association with Focus on the Family officially, I see. But the difference, scott, is that we are engaged politically. So our IRS tax designation is 501c4, which means that we're a nonprofit that can be political, and most of the Family Policy Council members are primarily 501c3 organizations, which means that they're educational. They cannot engage politically.
Richard Nelson:So when we first started in 2012, our main identity was political. We were going to step into the political lane and recruit candidates who shared essentially biblical values, who saw the limited role of government and saw that government's purpose was to secure our inalienable rights, that saw that we needed to protect, for example, the sanctity of human life. These were the kind of candidates that we were looking for and, by God's grace, after three election cycles in Kentucky, we were able to flip the Kentucky House, which was decidedly far left and would continue to kill pro-life, pro-family legislation year after year. We were able to help elect a pro-family, pro-life majority and since then we've seen great things happen. I don't know if we'll get into them now, but I can just say that we've seen a lot of major policy shifts in Kentucky for the better in the last seven or eight years.
Scott Allen:That's so interesting. I would you know. When I think of Kentucky, I think of a state that's very conservative. We have some supporters in Paducah and I occasionally travel there and I'm always amazed at just, you know, trump flags and very conservative. But you said you know you still had a lot of progressive influence in your legislature and I guess your governor right Is he a Democrat?
Richard Nelson:He is a Democrat. He's an anomaly. He's a far-left Democrat as well, a far-left Democrat right, it's worth noting, scott, that until about a year and a half ago, kentucky was a majority registered Democratic state, the majority of Kentucky registered Democrats. However, these were old school Democrats, the FDR.
Scott Allen:Democrats primarily.
Richard Nelson:And it was family tradition. Absolutely as a family they identified with the Democratic Party and that tradition followed for generations Party and that tradition followed for generations. But in the last couple of decades we've seen the Democratic Party at the national level stray so far to the left that it has offended the sensibilities of many Kentuckians who were for the most part they were the working man Democrat, they were the small person, smaller government Democrat, if you will, or at least not the far left-leaning liberal policy Democrat. But what's happened at the national level has just alienated rank-and-file Democratic voters here to the point where they've either registered as independent or as Republican, which Republicans are the majority party now in Kentucky.
Scott Allen:Yeah, that's interesting. There is such a change going on, isn't there? And it almost doesn't seem to be left-right as much as it does top-bottom, in a way. You know where the Democratic parties you were saying formerly would represent working class peoples and now is really out of touch with people in the working class because their core constituency are kind of highly educated elites on the coasts and so they're alienating a lot of the working class people which are now kind of becoming Republicans.
Scott Allen:So anyways listen before we get too into kind of what's happening at the political level in the various states or even in the world. I just want to kind of step back. We are a worldview group. We like to kind of think at a very basic, foundational level, and so the level of definitions and principles. So let's just put some things on the table. If we could, I'd like you to just kind of define politics. When we talk about politics, what are we talking about?
Richard Nelson:Yeah, and to put it simply, the simplest definition, it's the art of getting elected and wielding power in civil society. To put it in another way, it's the rules that we make for ourselves and agree to live under as a people.
Richard Nelson:Yes, I like that we have candidates who put themselves out there and these candidates talk about what they believe in and what they think would be good for our society, and then there are voters voters who can ask questions, voters who can push against the candidates, and then, ultimately, voters are the ones that make the decision of who will govern over us.
Richard Nelson:And this is an interesting principle in the American polity. In the Declaration of Independence we have this principle called government by the consent of the governed, and this came from the colonists, who really rejected the idea that they didn't have rights that should be maintained. The King of England, King George, disregarded their rights, disregarded those leaders who were over them, and the colonists said no, we don't have a say in whether or not you're going to increase our taxes. We don't have a say in the policies that you're imposing on us. And in the Declaration of Independence we see Thomas Jefferson introducing this idea government by the consent of the government. And this is the kind of nation that we're under. We have an important role as citizens to share our perspective and to get out and vote and to really participate all together. It's not just political leaders that are involved with politics, but it's the citizenry as well. It's the consent of the governed.
Scott Allen:I mean, you're talking about the great American experiment, which in many ways America's unique in this respect, isn't it that it put forward that principle that the people will govern themselves and elect representatives to represent their interests, but they are kind of at the pyramid or the apex of authority, right, the citizens. That really, I don't think has ever happened before in history. If I'm not mistaken, and you know because there you know, historically the norm is you have a king or some kind of a tyranny or a tyrant that's at the top and everyone else is either some kind of form of slave or serf or something like that. And yeah, so this is.
Scott Allen:It gets to principles, and I've talked to Christians that have said you know that, you know, I'm always a little disheartened when I hear them. They say that you know, god doesn't care what kind of political system we live under. You know that's not something that he has an interest in. You know he's interested in, you know, people getting saved and getting into churches, and of course he is, you know, of course you know. But this idea that he doesn't care what kind of political system we live under seems to me to be wrong, and you know. Can you help us, richard, explain what that principle was that led to this particular form of government. Is there a form of government the consent of the governed that does align better with what the Bible is teaching just some of the principles from the Scripture than others?
Richard Nelson:let's say To put it simply, scott, the answer is yes. There are forms of government that honor God and there are forms of government that dishonor God. There are forms of government that uphold the inherent dignity, the image of God in each of us, and there are governments that undermine inherent dignity and would suppress the image of God. So there's a big difference out there, and you don't need to look very far. I mean, even right now there are governments that I would challenge Any of those Christians who would say God doesn't really care about the form of government.
Richard Nelson:I would challenge them to go to a dictatorship and to see how the government treats its people and to see whether or not those people are flourishing and thriving and living out their calling as God has put before them. I would challenge any believer to really open their eyes and to see that there is a big difference and it does make a difference. Scott, I want to go back to something about this form of government. I want to put a finer point on something that you were saying. One thing in the Declaration of Independence that distinguishes our nation from every other nation, and that is it's not just the government by the consent of the governed, but it's also that the purpose of government is to secure our inalienable rights that come from God yeah that comes from God.
Richard Nelson:This is the key phrase in the Declaration.
Richard Nelson:We hold these rights, the self-evident truth that all men are created equal, that they're endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And then it goes on to say essentially, the purpose of government is to secure our inalienable rights. This is the purpose of our government, and what a good thing, what a good starting point with the purpose of government. This is the purpose of our government, and what a good thing, what a good starting point with the purpose of government. It is to acknowledge the rights that God has endowed within us. It's not government that endows rights. It is God who gives us rights, and the purpose of government here in this nation is they need to acknowledge that, first of all, there's a God over them, but they need to acknowledge that their purpose is to secure our inalienable rights. And what a great check that is on the powers and reach of government. So I needed to share that and get that out of the way. That's an important distinctive that we have in this nation.
Luke Allen:Hey guys, thanks for listening. I just wanted to quickly direct your attention to our core training here at the Disciple Nations Alliance called the Kingdomizer Training Program, which is a free biblical worldview training course. In this course, you'll learn what a worldview is and, more importantly, why there is only one worldview that actually works, that comports with reality.
Luke Allen:As Christians, we all know that there's only one God and actually works, that comports with reality.
Luke Allen:As Christians, we all know that there's only one God and one Bible, but we often don't think about how God also created one way for us to see and make sense of this world and therefore live according to his basic design for us in this world, and what we call that way of seeing the world is a biblical worldview.
Luke Allen:Unfortunately, when you become a Christian, you don't just automatically start seeing every part of life through a biblical worldview, so it's important to be discipled as you form this worldview and go through the process of being transformed in the renewing of your mind, as the Apostle Paul described it, and that is where I would highly recommend the Kingdomizer training program, as it is a great tool to help you continue to align your worldview with God and His world, if you would like to learn more about the Kingdomizer Training Program, just head over to quorumdeocom or follow the link in the show notes to see if this course is right for you or something that you'd like to lead a group through. As of today, people from 162 different countries have signed up for this course and are learning how to have a vision larger than themselves or their local church, but a vision for how to see every part of life through a biblical worldview. Join us as we learn how to bring biblical transformation into every corner of society by signing up today for free at quorumdeocom.
Darrow Miller:Well, you mentioned government by consent of the governed, and it seems to me that not quite a synonym, but a similar concept is individual self-government. And that is derived again from the biblical concept of we're made in the image of God, we are free moral agents, we take responsibility for our decisions and we are to be self-governing. And that doesn't mean just by voting, which is what I used to think For years. I thought, oh yeah, we're self-governing, that means we go out and vote every year or every four years or whatever. No, it's. I, in a sense, vote every day by internal self-government. And is God my sovereign and am I aligning my, my life under his sovereignty and my freedom? And I think that connects with what you were saying by the consent of the governed.
Richard Nelson:Darrell, that's good, and I would add that if a people is to remain free which we have incredible freedom and liberty in this country, incredible freedom, but you need to have a large understanding and exercise of self-government. We need to restrain ourselves from our worst impulses. We need to manage our appetites. We need to be moral people to manage our appetites. We need to be moral people Because if we don't manage our appetites and if we fall into gross immorality, freedom diminishes. Government necessarily will step in and solve problems, and I would argue that this is where we are in our society today.
Darrow Miller:It's exactly where we are today.
Richard Nelson:We have rejected the idea of self-government. And when people develop addictions and this is something in Kentucky that we're facing, where we have a huge opioid crisis, not just Kentucky, but many places across the nation are when people succumb to addiction and can't support themselves and become a burden on society, then the government necessarily steps in. And when the government steps in, it takes resources. So that means tax dollars, it means programs, which means more tax dollars, and it also means a limitation on some kind of freedom. So, for example, using this example of drug addiction, opioid addiction, when drugs are abused, then the government's going to look at ways to restrict other things. I think of oh, the Sudafed was restricted here years ago over-the-counter Sudafed. Now you need a prescription to get it. Why? Because people were using that to support their drug addiction. Now, that was a different kind of drug, it was an ingredient for meth, but that's an example of how freedom is impinged when people and the idea of self-government is lost. So this is one of the great challenges we're facing today as Americans.
Darrow Miller:Well in these what you're describing. This goes back to what we focus on here at the DNA as a worldview level. If you understand that God exists, we live in a moral universe. We have been created to be free and responsible agents. That leads to a particular concept of government, like we've been describing. If you believe there is no God, we do not live in a moral universe. Human beings become the center of the universe, they become narcissistic and hedonistic and culture breaks down, and that's you have a biblical worldview here and an atheistic worldview here and an atheistic worldview here and they have two different consequences for what goes on in society and on a policy level.
Scott Allen:I want to just come back, richard, to your definition of politics. As I heard it, you kind of explained it in two ways, and the second one, I thought was I thought both were great, but the second one was really basic. It was just how a group of people, people, any group of people agrees to kind of work together for the for, you know, for the, the greater good, you know. I think of the Mayflower Compact. When the, the, you know the, the settlers there, came to Plymouth Rock, you know that on the Mayflower they drafted up that document that says we're going to have to live together. It was a relatively small group of people and here's kind of how we're going to get along with each other and make this thing work.
Scott Allen:And I say all that because I still hear a lot of Christians say that, oh, you know, we shouldn't be political or we shouldn't get involved in politics, and I know what they're thinking. They're thinking of, you know we shouldn't become known as Trump supporters or you know, back a particular political party or whatever it is, and I just think they're not thinking more. You know basically enough about what politics is? You know it's unavoidable, isn't it? You know, even, apart from government and elections and voting, it's just. It's the way we function in a society, isn't it Well?
Richard Nelson:look, the idea of government is God's idea. Romans 13 makes clear that God ordains government. Scott, I want to challenge our good friends who are listening right now and they might have that view that government is not a Christian calling or politics is dirty. Those are challenges that I face regularly in my work from the Christian community. But I would challenge them to look at the Old Testament and look at the people that we look up to as being godly, people who engaged their culture and brought wisdom to their culture and were used by God. And really, in the Old Testament I see two major categories. You have prophets and then you have politicians, right, and we've got the major prophets and we got the letters from the minor prophets.
Richard Nelson:But then look at the political leaders that we see in the Old Testament. You see Daniel and Nehemiah, esther, joseph In each of those examples. By the way, they were used in pagan governments. They were God's people, put in strategic places to speak into the king's ear, if you will. And then we see God's leaders. We see Moses, who was a great political leader. Was he a prophet? Yes, he was a prophet, but he was also a political leader as well. We see David. We see other kings of Israel. Some good many were bad, but we see God raising up people to serve in government and to achieve his purposes, and I think that's a good starting point, that we need to see that God has used his people in the past. I believe he's still using his people today.
Richard Nelson:But I'd go even further than that, one step further. God is the king, he is the creator, he is the ruler over all. Scripture says this, from the Old Testament, from Genesis all the way to Revelation. We read in the New Testament that Jesus is the King of kings and the Lord of lords, and one day every knee will bow and every tongue confess that truth. We need to remember who we're talking about. This isn't some fairy tale. This isn't something that we just read about in a book, but this is the creator of the universe, who spoke everything into existence.
Richard Nelson:And, yes, he's interested in government. Not only is he interested in government, but he is the king of kings and one day he is going to make all things new. He will take his rightful place on the throne and we're going to see that reality. As believers in Christ, we long for King Jesus to come back and rule over his creation Now, even though this king is there, we know that Jesus is there, his kingdom has come. It's the as we've all talked about and heard this phrase. It's the already and it's the not yet right. We have a king who is reigning, but his kingdom is not fulfilled yet, it is not fully consumed, and we won't see that until the second coming. But what does this mean for us in the meantime and this is the challenge for the American church today what does Jesus's kingship mean for us today?
Darrow Miller:does kingship mean for us today? Let me jump in there. You're talking about God being sovereign, ruling from Genesis until the end of history and then ruling beyond history, and I read a book this year or last year now, called the Hebrew Republic. I don't know if you've come across it. I had never heard that term until I read the word and read the book, but it was by a historian who is arguing that, prior to the kings of Israel, there was a Hebrew republic where people looked to God as their sovereign and then they wanted to be like all other nations and demanded that they be given a king. And yes, is the form of government based on god's sovereignty moving towards a republic where people are image bearers of god, they are free moral agents and they govern themselves internally by god's laws, or is it some other form of government? And this is a critical question for what nations are going to look like.
Scott Allen:Yeah, just tying into what Darrell was saying, I'd like your response on, if I could Richard on three areas where I hear Christians. I think these are large swaths of Christians, kind of dominant views in the church in the United States, but I do think they're kind of missing the mark politically. I hear these a lot and I'd like to just kind of lay them out briefly, if I could, and then get your quick response to all three. The first one, maybe the largest one, is represented by the view that what we do in areas of culture, society, government politics, limited to, you know, being witnesses, sharing the gospel and helping people to come to Christ and come into churches, that's what we're here for.
Scott Allen:Anything beyond that becomes a kind of a distraction and it doesn't really matter at the end of the day, because this world, our nations, they're going to be destroyed. Our nations, they're going to be destroyed, and you know. So why bother? You know, and I think that I say that it's large, that's a large group of Christians, because, as we know, a lot of Christians don't vote, and I think that the reason that they don't vote isn't necessarily just because they're not, you know, they're too busy. I think there's deeper reasons, this kind of politics of disengagement, that come from this particular view. What's your response to that? That's one of the three. I'd like to just go through these three kind of quickly. What's your response?
Scott Allen:to that view.
Richard Nelson:Scott is. We want to see people come to Christ, we want to share the gospel, we want to see them have spiritual lives transformed. We also need to realize that God cares about the material world, he cares about culture, he cares about families, he cares about justice. And it's not an either or. This kind of thinking that you're describing is a dualism. It's the idea that there's this sacred realm and this secular, secular realm and the spiritual, the sacred, is elevated above this, the secular, if you will. God cares about all of life. He cares about our bodies and our souls. He cares about us coming to salvation in him, to him, through Christ, but he also cares about how we should live, how we order ourselves in society, how families, the integrity of families. He cares about the work that we do. He cares about all of it. So it's not an either or. God cares deeply about our spiritual lives, but he cares about this world.
Richard Nelson:Look, we go back to the very first book in the Bible, in Genesis, chapter 1, we read where God put Adam and Eve in the garden. He created Adam and Eve in His image, put them in the Garden of Eden to take care of it and to keep it. He gave them a job to do. It was a physical world with real work to glorify Him and to walk with Him, and that mandate is still in effect today. We are still called to walk with God. We're still called to glorify him and to walk with him, and that mandate is still in effect today. We are still called to walk with God, we're still called to glorify God, and this means engaging all of life, including the political realm as well.
Scott Allen:Wow, yeah, that's right. Well said, richard. I couldn't agree more forcefully with what you just said there. So I just think that's you know. I think that's so important because there's still so much confusion that, yeah, we are saved and God wants us to be saved, but we're saved to serve, to be involved, to make this world better, to be salt and light, and at a minimum in a country like ours, at a minimum that means voting. So if Christians don't care enough that they don't vote, we get the kind of government that we deserve.
Scott Allen:Frankly, Okay second kind of area of confusion. I think this comes from you know, I don't want to put names to these necessarily, but I think Tim Keller's been kind of behind this idea. So he would say, no, we do, yes, we should engage politically. He would say, and this particular view would say, no, we do yes, we should engage politically. He would say, and this particular view would say, yes, we should engage politically, but not in a partisan way. So church leaders, pastors, organizational leaders must not be partisans, must not support a Democrat or a Republican. We have to be neutral. You know kind of find the third way, if you will. What's your thought on that?
Luke Allen:Because I hear that a lot too.
Scott Allen:That's a kind of a large, growing group of folks as well.
Richard Nelson:I would say this, and I would need more context. That's a broad question, a lot of implications there. I'll start with this, though, and I get a chance to speak in churches across Kentucky. I've got a lot of friends who are in the pastorate, and when I'm speaking to a congregation, I will tell them that the pastor of this church should not be afraid to speak about any issue, as the Bible speaks to an issue. In fact, he's under obligation to unpack what the scripture is saying right, and this means he shouldn't be afraid to speak about government and politics, and justice and righteousness Should not be afraid of that.
Richard Nelson:Now, at the same time, a pastor should guard his pulpit carefully. He should not give this over to a political candidate or to a political party. So, on one hand, the church and the pastor, speaking according to God's word, should be willing to speak to every issue, all of culture, including our politics, and, at the same same time, to not be co-opted by any politician or any political party, so that you have both things going on. The church needs to be clear about what the Bible teaches when it comes to morality and when it comes to justice and righteousness, and at the same time, the church needs to guard itself from being co-opted or pitching just too closely aligning to any one party. And, by the way, I've got strong political opinions. I've actually run for office as a conservative Republican and got elected, served at the local level for some time.
Richard Nelson:But there's a line there when it comes to the church that should not be crossed when it comes to a partisanship, and maybe we need to define what partisanship is. I think that'd be helpful for us, scott. So partisanship is when you elevate your party platform to an authoritative level and when you look to party leaders for direction, and that's a general sense of how I would define that we are, while we can be involved with political parties and hopefully many Christians are and engaged in running for office and engaged in helping good people get elected, at the same time, as Christians, our ultimate allegiance is to King Jesus and our ultimate playbook is God's Word, the Bible. So it's above God's sovereignty, his kingship and His Word is higher than any political leader and their the party platform that they are articulating from. So that's the distinction I would make there.
Scott Allen:I think that's really good, richard, and I think that this idea of neutrality is where I struggle with this one. I think if a political—just for exactly the same reasons you're saying, we have a higher allegiance and we have God's Word and the principles from His Word and we're to call kind of balls and strikes, if you will, against whatever political party exists, you know, and not be afraid to, but that's different than being neutral, and not be afraid to, but that's different than being neutral. I often think, when people talk about neutrality, if you were a German in the 1930s and the Nazi party was gaining prominence and power, would you say oh, my duty as a Christian is to remain neutral. No, you would say this party is going off the rails, it's becoming very dangerous and we need to oppose it. And I think that would be the more appropriate response as a Christian, rather than try to kind of have some neutrality. So yes, derek, go ahead.
Richard Nelson:I want to add something here to underscore this point. The governor of Kentucky back in September issued an executive order telling counselors that they could not counsel LGBT-identified youth, could not counsel them away from their LGBTQ identity. My organization, the Commonwealth Policy Center, put together a press conference in the Kentucky Capitol and we had pastors come, we had biblical counselors come, we had legislators come and we spoke out against that. We believe that it was an over that. We believe that it was an overreach. We believe that it violated First Amendment freedoms of religion, freedom of speech. We believe that it violated family sovereignty, that families that wanted to help their children align with their born gender.
Richard Nelson:We believe it violated all of that and we, along with many in the Christian community, took a strong stand and we weren't ugly, we didn't call names. I think we presented ourselves well. But we took a strong stand because there was so much at stake and there was such an egregious violation of some basic rights and common sense there that we took a stand and pushed back and we will continue to push back against that. But I just wanted to underscore that is an appropriate thing that Christians can do to engage in a way that's viewed as political. It might even be viewed as partisan, but we believe that we had to take a stand for a number of reasons.
Scott Allen:But I just go ahead. Yeah, darrell, I just wanted to underscore Richard's point about you. Know, our highest allegiance is to God and his word and not to a political party, but that doesn't mean we have to maintain some kind of neutrality. Go ahead, darrell, yeah.
Darrow Miller:You know the point that I would make in this part of the discussion. Again, we need to go back to worldview and paradigm and the pastor should be addressing a biblical paradigm, his sermons. I'm not saying he talks about worldview all the time, but that he's conscious that a biblical paradigm should be the foundation for what he's teaching and preaching and that should lead to biblical principles. And if a congregation is rooted, Sunday after Sunday, in sermons and teaching that reflect a biblical paradigm and biblical principles, you don't need to tell them how to vote. That's right. That's not going to be an issue, because they will look at policies and they will look for policies that reflect their worldview and their principles. But when we don't do that, then it becomes an issue of policies and politics and I think that's where from that paradigm and those principles. That's great, well said.
Scott Allen:Darrell. My third one, richard, is it gets back to your point that Jesus is king, and I agree with that. That's true, but that has political ramifications. And this third kind of one comes mostly from non-Christians, because they hear that. They hear Christians say that and I remember reading just recently about the Swiss people not, yeah, the Swiss people after the Reformation, and they were living under tyrannies and kings and tyrants and they said you know what? We don't want to live anymore under a king, we want to live under the rule of King. Jesus, he's the king. And they kind of moved on from that point, you know, in terms of their political government. But non-Christians, when they hear us talk that way, what they have in mind is oh, that means that you're going to impose some kind of theocracy and rule with enforce Old Testament law upon the country, if you know, if God is the king, if Jesus is the king, that's the kind of form of government we're looking at. What's your response to that view?
Richard Nelson:Yeah, I would say that's not happening and that is not the belief that Christians have. When they say that they want to live under King Jesus you know what I hear is they long for his kingdom, kingdom of justice and righteousness and love and peace and mercy. Those are elements of God's economy. Now the question is is what kind of government will elevate those ideals? And look, in this country we were shaped by Christians, the colonists and their colonial charters. These were Christian men who formed their constitutions, they led in government, the founding fathers of the United States of America. These were largely Christian men not all, but many were and they brought with them a biblical ethos, if you will. They understood the inherent corruption of mankind, the sinfulness of mankind. They understood the need to limit government, because government would encroach on the inalienable rights of mankind. And they worked from this biblical grid, if you will, and they created a government where maximum freedoms were allowed and maintained and where government was limited. And it was really essentially this biblical grid and this is something I think that most Christians today would say yeah, that's a good thing. In fact, not only that, I think, when we articulate this well and when we present this to our unbelieving friends and neighbors. They will see that the Christian view of government and the Christian view of who man is benefits all of us. The ideas of freedom of conscience, the freedom to speak and to write and to assemble, these are Christian ideals and it benefits all of us.
Richard Nelson:It is in the secular dictatorships where we see oppressive governments stomping out free speech, stomping out freedom of religion, stomping out the freedom to assemble, and it's because the governments are afraid of the people, right, they have disregard of the human rights of their citizenry, not according to the Christian worldview. And that's why the United States and largely the European nations, even though it's post-Christian now, that's why they've largely they've flourished and you've seen maximum freedom and this elevation of this idea of, especially the uniqueness of human beings and how we've got to. The purpose of government is just to enhance and to secure those inalienable rights. And we're losing this idea, we're losing this today. And today you see Christianity criticized. You could see Christianity thrown under the bus and blamed for a lot of things that it is not responsible for. So this is the challenge to the church for us to re-engage and to bring these Christian ideas back to the forefront.
Scott Allen:What I hear you saying, Richard I just want to underscore the importance of it is that there's a principle in the Bible, in biblical Christianity and Judaism, for freedom, and that principle for freedom, human freedom, doesn't exist in any other religion or worldview, including atheism and secularism, that's right. It doesn't exist in any other. And so there's this irony that it's kind of an irony. If you have a Christian government that does honor God as king, you actually have a pluralistic society where people aren't forced to believe, you know, in a particular way it takes a non-pluralistic ideology to create a pluralistic society and government.
Scott Allen:In other words, it treats people as free human beings. That's right. They can make their own choices with a non-pluralistic set of assumptions.
Darrow Miller:Mine is the right way. There's no pursuit of truth, there's no freedom and you have tyranny. So that's, I think, very important to state. It takes a non-pluralistic ideology. Jesus said I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me. That is a non-pluralistic statement, but that statement allows for freedom Absolutely.
Richard Nelson:Darrell, if I could add to that, part of the Christian ideal is that those in government or those in authority need to respect image bearers made in the image of God. Part of being made in the image is that we have a conscience, that's right and. Christians realize that conscience cannot be coerced in order to bring somebody to faith in Christ.
Richard Nelson:This is the role of the Holy Spirit and this is what you're getting to. This is something where the Christian ideal allows for conscience protections and therefore religious freedom, which is secured in the First Amendment of the US Constitution.
Scott Allen:Yeah, and it's so powerful. So again, acknowledging the lordship of Jesus Christ as the most basic principle, in some ways, of government allows for this kind of freedom in a way that nothing else does. And I think our non-Christian friends, they don't understand this when they hear oh, you know, acknowledging Jesus as king, you're going to end up with some kind of government like you have in Iran, you know, some kind of theocracy that's really brutal. And you know, and I'm like, no, these principles are very different. They may be religious, but they're very different religions, very different views of God.
Darrow Miller:So, richard, I have a question for you that's born out of what I'm wrestling with right now and I'd like to get your thoughts on this. I've said for years that the spiritual realm invades the natural or physical realm through culture. Its culture is above politics, it's above economics, it's above social institutions, and so the spiritual realm impacts these institutions through culture. And there's something that we shy away from as Christians who've grown up in a Western, atheistic, materialistic culture, and that is we shy away from the concept of the demonic. And I think that the demonic can influence institutions. Yeah, and it has an impact on a nation through the demonic invading institutions. You follow what I'm saying. How does that relate to our discussion today of politics?
Richard Nelson:Yeah, there are a couple of things there, darrell, and I agree with you that culture is influencing our institutions. There's a saying that I shared over the years, and that is that politics is downstream from culture, and this is your thing that culture in public consensus is influencing our politics. Right, our political leaders are a reflection of what we believe and what we hold to be true, that's right.
Richard Nelson:Right. So that's one thing. The other is as far as the demonic, we live in a day and age where that is, in the West, where the demonic is relegated to maybe horror movies, but as far as a real devil that's seeking and prowling and looking for somebody to devour, we scoff at that as a people we're like well, that's a fairy tale.
Darrow Miller:There's no such thing as devil. It's a fairy tale. That's the realm we put it in.
Richard Nelson:But if you look at it, I would challenge that thinking you and I believe that there is a real devil and he is prowling and he's looking to destroy.
Dwight Vogt:God's creation.
Richard Nelson:He's looking to hurt God's image bearers. And I would say, for those who doubt the devil and his activity right now in this country, look at what's happening with this issue of gender ideology, where you have institutions, so you brought in institutions respectable institutions that are so deceived. You have medical institutions that are somehow giving their stamp of approval on the gender.
Darrow Miller:Government educational across the board.
Richard Nelson:That's right Education. You have the medical societies putting their stamp of approval on gender transition of minors, untested hormone therapies, untested trial runs of puberty blockers on minors. How close to the demonic can you get when you're talking about allowing something egregious, irreversible, harmful, that will have lifelong effects? That's right.
Richard Nelson:People in places of authority who should know better that are giving their stamp. I would say that they are misled. I would leave open the very real possibility that there's demonic influence there. So we do know that there is a devil, he is active and he seeks to diminish and to hurt God's creation, and so we need to be alert to that. So, darrell, I don't know if that's what you're looking for.
Darrow Miller:That's what I'm trying to get at. I mean, how do we understand this? That's what I'm trying to get at. I mean, how do we understand this? And you're hearing more and more in public discussions. This is pure evil. This is objective evil. And people are talking about what happened in New Orleans the other day. That's evil. They say the other day, that's evil. They say we will look back at what Hitler did and the Third Reich and say that is evil. And so so many of these things are in fact evil. But what is the role of the reality, of the demonic as it invades institutions in these areas? How do we understand that and not just write it off as a fairy tale?
Dwight Vogt:Well, I'm listening to the conversation and I'm thinking what is at the heart of our division as the country of the United States right now? And I'm thinking it's a division over the understanding of what's good and what's evil, and so the evil is becoming good for some people, and then and and so, and satan is the father of lies, so he's implanting lies. That's right, because I'm always amazed when I hear somebody pretend something so good which is so evil. Yeah, and I'm just shocked.
Darrow Miller:And this isn't just for individuals.
Dwight Vogt:The lie it's on an institutional level it's it starts with the individual and becomes two individuals and five individuals, and then it goes into individuals with influence and pretty soon it is an institution, because a whole group of people have bought into a lie, they believe it with all their hearts and it's an immoral lie.
Scott Allen:I think the importance of this maybe, dwight, is what you just said too that Satan does exist. He is seeking to destroy and he does it through culture and politics and policies, but he does it through deception and lies and people believe them. So the antidote, the way we, I think the action step for Christians on this is then just simply to be people that, in the public square, tell the truth and speak truthfully. That's right, you know, that's. You know prayer is very important, don't get me wrong. We need to pray, you know, but we need to, you know prayer is very important, don't get me wrong. We need to pray, you know, but but we need to, you know, just speak truthfully to.
Richard Nelson:Scott Scott, if I could add to that. So yes, we pray, we realize there's a great spiritual battle, yeah, we pray, but then we make ourselves available. I think of all the opportunities that Christians have to serve on boards and commissions or to run for office. And if you want to talk about true spirituality, it's one thing for us to be in prayer and to read the Word and to go to church regularly, which is needed. This is part of our spiritual formation.
Richard Nelson:But if you want to see true spiritual growth, you take what you are learning through God's word and praying daily and you take it into the public arena and you serve on a board or a commission where you run for office and you see the spiritual battle up close and personal.
Richard Nelson:And you want to talk about forming you as a person, which I wrote about in my book Christianian Politics.
Richard Nelson:By the way, a lot of it's firsthand experience.
Richard Nelson:But you want to talk about how to influence culture and to be made available to God and to see things the spiritual battle firsthand.
Richard Nelson:Get involved publicly, take your biblical principles and what you believe and serve on a board and engage in that realm and you'll have a very different perspective on things. And, by the way, I'll add this and I'm speaking from experience because I've served on a number of boards over the years but when you do take biblical principles and you do it in a charitable way, grounded in grace, guided by God's truth, you'll see that the facade that the enemies put forward it might seem daunting and loom large, but you will see that God's truth and his grace can break through all of the foolishness that you see there, and I've seen it in person. And that's my challenge to those who are tuning in and wondering well, how does a Christian who cares about our culture and cares about our government and the direction of our nation, how do we make a difference? Well, be in prayer, see how God might use you, but serve in some kind of a capacity where you can work out your biblical principles and see how God uses that.
Darrow Miller:And do it with grace. That's right.
Scott Allen:Yeah, love, truth and grace In our remaining time, richard, and we're kind of running out of time here, but I do want to kind of deal with some issues I'm struggling with, frankly, as a person right now that lives in the state of Oregon, which has become politically in many ways deeply progressive. The House, the Senate, the governor, all three branches of our state government are held firmly by not just Democrats but people on the far left, far left progressives, and it results in policies that are highly destructive in all sorts of ways. For example, oregon's a state that allows for abortion for any reason, all the way up to the point of ways. For example, oregon's a state that allows you know for abortion for any reason, all the way up to the point of birth, not even for people in the state of Oregon. But you can come here from other states and the state will pay for it, will pay for it. In other words, I'm paying for it as a Christian through my tax dollars.
Darrow Miller:Is this evil?
Scott Allen:Yeah, it's evil. Yeah, or we were talking about transgenderism. You know, the University of Oregon Health Sciences up in Portland was a pioneer in transgender surgeries and are still very proud of that fact, that they're pioneering that, spreading that to hospitals and clinics around the country. Is this evil? Yeah, this is evil. And I'm here, I'm a part of this politics here in this state, in the sense that I pay a lot of taxes, way more than I did when I lived in Arizona.
Dwight Vogt:Come back.
Scott Allen:Scott.
Scott Allen:State taxes are very high here and I just wanted your thoughts on you know Oregon wasn't always this way. I mean, this is a state that was settled by pioneers that came, you know that came through the Oregon Trail very many, very committed Christians. We weren't settled by, you know, cattle ranchers or gold miners, you know that kind of a rougher crowd. These were pioneers, they were settlers. A lot of them were Christians. The university I went to, willamette University, was founded by Methodist missionaries. It's the oldest Christian university west of the Mississippi, founded by Christian missionaries.
Scott Allen:So there's a real legacy of godly biblical government which, by the way, changed in my lifetime. You know Oregon used to be, when I was young, was a largely conservative state Changed dramatically, you know, over the last, let's say, 20 years. People struggle with this. Now Christians struggle and some say you know we just have to leave. You know we're free to leave and we can go to states like Kentucky or Tennessee or Florida, texas, and many of them do. Many up here leave to go to the state of Idaho, the neighboring state, others don't. And you know what are your thoughts. How do we engage as Christians in a place like this where we're almost kind of compelled to do things that violate our conscience through our taxes. What are your thoughts on that, richard?
Richard Nelson:Yeah, you're in a challenging environment, I would say. Obviously you have this burden on your heart and I would start with this with prayer Ask what God would have you to do as an individual. I know it's egregious that your tax dollars are being used to support immorality and, quite frankly, my tax dollars to some degree, in a very conservative state in Kentucky, are supporting some immorality that I'm aware of, particularly on college campuses. And what God has called me to do, scott, is to address those issues using my gifts and talents, as I'm able to address those issues, and there are different things that each of us can do. We have different skills and different abilities that we can do to influence the government. What we cannot do is to write it off and say it doesn't matter or I can't change anything, because that's cynical and we need to make ourselves available to the God who breaks through the darkness.
Richard Nelson:And I would submit that if there were enough believers in Oregon who really were grieved, really grieved over what's going on there, and they made themselves available to the living God and say Lord, I'm grieved over this sin and over this evil, what can I do? How can you use me? And over this evil, what can I do, how can you use me, what things can be done to push back on this, I would venture to believe that you would get an answer to that prayer, and I don't know how long it would take, Scott. It might take years to find an answer to those questions. But if enough believers really were concerned and interested, you could begin to see change. And I'm thinking too. By the way, here's a thought the issues we're dealing with are so foolish and so harmful in many ways that case in point, Oregon, at one point legalized hard drugs right Foolish policy foolish.
Richard Nelson:And just recently I think last year sometime they began steps to undo that policy because it was just proven to be a failure. Well, the same is true with many other policies. If you become an abortion sanctuary for other states and end up subsidizing abortions for citizens outside of Oregon, I think maybe your political leaders will realize how foolish it is. Or with the gender ideology issue, they really need to be called out and the light needs to be shown on how evil and destructive that is. But again, it begins with individual believers having a burden for righteousness and saying to God Lord, this is a mess, it's ugly, it's evil. How can you use me? I think that's the starting point. Oh, I really love that, richard. I mess, it's ugly, it's evil. How can you use me? I think that's the starting point.
Scott Allen:Oh, I really love that, richard. I mean, that's convicting for me personally, because I'm scared in some ways to pray that prayer but at the same time I totally agree with you?
Scott Allen:I think it does. You know, it comes down to every individual. Everybody matters, but we need to have a belief system, a theology, if you will, that leads us to pray prayers like that and to be willing to do something. You know that your life can matter and that you need to be engaged and not disengaged. I feel like so much of the challenge we have with Christians and the Church is just this kind of disengagement theology, and I think the reason we're in the bind that we're in in a place like Oregon is because our opponents haven't been disengaged at all. They've been highly engaged, very strategic, you know, for the wrong reasons. I think. They put all their hope in politics. There is no God above the state, you know, and so this is where they find their hope, but it leads to them to be highly engaged in a way that we, as Christians haven't been, and I think that does need to change, You're right, and that starts with every one of us, myself included.
Dwight Vogt:Good word, very good word.
Scott Allen:Yeah.
Dwight Vogt:Hey, could I ask a final question?
Scott Allen:Yeah, please do.
Dwight Vogt:Richard, I know that you're a friend of the DNA and it goes back a ways.
Scott Allen:Oh yeah.
Dwight Vogt:What's your story with the DNA? In a nutshell?
Richard Nelson:ways. What's your story with the DNA in a nutshell? Yeah well, darrell came to speak at a board retreat for a previous organization that I'd worked with and he spent a weekend sharing worldview training and some of his work in other nations, very, very impressed with what Darrell was doing and I think our support started way back then. And that could have been, oh my goodness. Arrow was doing, and I think our support started way back then and that could have been, oh my goodness, probably 16, 17 years ago I'm thinking several years ago. But I just appreciate what you're all doing, with your worldview emphasis and really trying to help disciple the church, and appreciate everything that you're all doing. We appreciate it.
Dwight Vogt:I wasn't expecting an advertisement, but thank you.
Scott Allen:We appreciate your application of it, Richard, in a courageous way so. Richard, thanks so much for being with us today. Again, I want to just mention the book. It's called Christianity and Politics a Memoir of Spiritual Formation and Field Guide for Christians in the Public Arena, and that was released last year. Right, Richard, that's right.
Richard Nelson:September 1st of 2024 is when it went live. It's on Amazon right now. It can be found at several other booksellers. It's on Audible and what else, I guess Google Reader. So it's out there. I think that any of the listeners who appreciated this program can find out more about how God's Word has shaped me and shaped the work that I'm doing here in Kentucky as well. So appreciate y'all having me on the program to talk about this.
Scott Allen:Well, thanks for writing the book, and I just want to encourage our listeners to avail themselves of the wisdom that you've put out there. Richard, thanks for doing that, thanks for your work, your example and just the wisdom you've shared with us today. It's helped me personally and convicted me so I'm grateful for that. Yeah, you're welcome. All right guys. Good to be with you, as well as all of our listeners. Thank you for listening to another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciples Nations Alliance.
Luke Allen:Thank you for joining us for this discussion with Richard Nelson. For more information about today's guest, to find all of the resources that we mentioned during the discussion, including his book, please visit the episode page, which is linked in the show notes. If you've listened to this show for any amount of time, you'll know that Ideas have Consequences is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance and, as a nonprofit ministry, we are blessed to be able to provide all of our biblical worldview courses and this podcast to you completely for free, thanks to our generous supporters, many of whom, I'm sure, are listening right now. So if that's you, we wanted to give you a special thank you from all of us here at the Disciple Nations Alliance and for all of you guys listening today.
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