Ideas Have Consequences
Everything that we see around us is the product of ideas, of ideologies, of worldviews. That's where everything starts. Worldviews are not all the same, and the differences matter a lot. How do you judge a tree? By its fruits. How do you judge a worldview? By its physical, tangible, observable fruit. The things it produces. Ideas that are noble and true produce beauty, abundance, and human flourishing. Poisonous ideas produce ugliness. They destroy and dehumanize. It really is that simple. Welcome to Ideas Have Consequences, the podcast of Disciple Nations Alliance, where we prepare followers of Christ to better understand the true ideas that lead to human flourishing while fighting against poisonous ideas that destroy nations. Join us, and prepare your minds for action!
Ideas Have Consequences
An Approach that Could Eradicate Homelessness with James Whitford
It often seems like efforts to address poverty and homelessness are doing more harm than good. In this episode, James Whitford, co-founder and CEO of True Charity, examines the unintended consequences of conventional charity methods and the pitfalls of "toxic charity." Instead, he promotes a transformative approach rooted in human dignity, empowerment, and personal responsibility. His work is deeply rooted in biblical principles and highlights churches' pivotal role in fostering lasting change. These are focused, relational, community-driven solutions proven to make real change. Join us as we explore practical insights, real-life stories, and actionable steps to reimagine how we approach poverty and empower individuals to thrive within a Christ-centered framework.
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To be able to look at every person who's struggling in poverty and say, look, I see the need and I'm listening to you and I want to understand it, but I also see someone who's made in the image of God and the image of a creator with capacity to contribute and to create, to contribute and to create and then to enter into that kind of exchange or reciprocity in our charity work communicates. I believe in you and we need to be communicating that to people. We can't see people as objects of our benevolence. We must see them as subjects who have autonomy, agency and capacity to contribute. Our charity needs to uphold this imago Dei, or the image of God in that regard.
Luke Allen:Hi friends, welcome to Ideas have Consequences. The podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. Here on this show we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world, to all the nations, but our mission also includes to be the hands and feet of God, to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected this second part of her mission and today most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.
Scott Allen:Well, welcome again everyone to another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. I'm Scott Allen, I'm the president of the DNA, joined today as is normal for us by Luke Allen, Dwight Vogt, and today we're blessed to have as our guest James Whitford, I believe the founder and the president of True Charity. Is that the right title, James?
James Whitford:Yeah, that sounds good Okay.
Scott Allen:I'm not trying to make it up, I just want to know what it is.
James Whitford:I think my emails say co-founder and CEO. Co-founder and CEO Perfect.
Scott Allen:Yeah Well, james, it's been a while since we've had you on and for the sake of our listeners, our longtime listeners you may remember James and the organization True Charity. The Disciple Nations Alliance is proud to be affiliated with True Charity. We both have roots in poverty alleviation. Our roots go more international and true charity is more domestic. But that's our common heart and really looking to things that make a true difference, that really lead to real positive change and outcome for poverty alleviation. For poverty alleviation, james earned his PhD from the University of Kansas Medical Center. He practiced physical therapy and wound care before he and his wife Marsha founded Watered Gardens Ministry in Joplin, missouri and I believe you're in Joplin, is that correct, james? I am.
James Whitford:I'm in Joplin today.
Scott Allen:James, I am. I'm in Joplin today, Great yeah. And that began in the year 2000. I'm just reading from James your bio. That's on the website. James, you mentioned that True Charity evolved from their mission to champion a resurgence of civil society in the fight against poverty. I want to come back and unpack that a little bit. In the fight against poverty I want to come back and unpack that a little bit. Your role as the CEO or executive director involves establishing vision strategy for the ministry, and James is the father of five children and seven grandchildren. That's awesome and loves to fish. So anything else, James, you want to add on that short bite?
James Whitford:That sounds like a good period. On the end of that, I like to fish.
Scott Allen:I do too. So does my son Isaac. He's a fishing fanatic, so I understand that.
James Whitford:Yeah, I make a joke at our annual fish fry where we bring a bunch of volunteers together to feed them a ton of fish that my wife and I have caught on the James River just south of Springfield, Missouri, and we'll have a big fish fry and I'll always say something along the lines of I can only hope that I've caught as many men for Christ as I have fish out of this river.
Scott Allen:Well, James, I would love to just catch up on the work of True Charity, but more than that, I'd like to kind of just dive in, I think, our listeners. I know I am just very interested in kind of the state of poverty in the United States today. We'll be focusing in domestically, on US the state of poverty, and even kind of going deeper into some worldview questions, Kind of what is—how do we define poverty? You know, what are the worldview assumptions behind that? Where are we at today? What are some of the most effective things that Christians can be doing today in their own communities to be involved? It seems to be a kind of a complicated environment that we're in. I've always thought that. I've thought, you know, poverty fighting in the United States is one of the most complicated things that Christians can be engaged in for a variety of reasons. We might get into some of that today. So, anyways, that's kind of where I was hoping we could go with our conversation. Yeah, but back to the mission statement, if I could or not?
Scott Allen:Your mission statement, the bio that you have here. You have some provocative language here. I just want to unpack a little bit. You said that a Charity wants to champion a resurgence of civil society in the fight against poverty. Help me understand that. First of all, just civil society. What do you mean by that, and what's the role of civil society in fighting against poverty?
James Whitford:When we talk about civil society, typically people think of private institutions, local community neighbors, civic organizations, churches, so that all encompasses the idea of civil society. And we know that there was a time when civil society was the first responder to need in community. And today, I think, we see forms of charity that are public, not private, programs that are being developed from far away, outside of a person's community, but then engaging with people in the community, not really understanding fully what's going on. You said it's complicated. Right, and it is. It's complicated In fact.
James Whitford:We could just talk for a minute about the difference between complicated and complex. I think complex is even a better term. Complicated, as Arthur Brooks wrote in his book I think it was called the Conservative Heart and he differentiates between complicated and complex problems and he's talking about poverty. But the analogy he gives is very good Solving the problem of building a jet engine. That's a complicated problem. I mean that's a tough one, but once you get it figured out now you can approach it from a blueprint solution, so you can build as many jet engines as you want. You can solve that complicated problem over and over again. But complex, he says, is more like a football game, no matter how much you know about football or your experience with football, you never can tell how a football game is going to unfold, because there's too much going on, too many moving parts. No two football games are exactly alike. It's too complex, and poverty is complex because individuals live complex lives and so civil society is more equipped to deal with complex issues of poverty, because they're closer to the people who are actually experiencing those problems. And we can't solve it as a complicated problem.
James Whitford:If we do, we end up treating a set of symptoms rather than being able to treat or address the underlying issues, the source, or sometimes what I call the pathology. And when we address symptoms only, we end up doing more harm than good. It's kind of like diabetes is a good example of a diagnosis that has a set of symptoms. Diabetes symptoms are lethargy. You can feel really tired and thirsty, you can be very thirsty. So what are we going to do to treat the symptoms? Well, I might give you an ice cold Coca-Cola, I mean. That's going to help wake you up and quench your thirst, but you and I know that a Coca-Cola would do more harm to a diabetic than good.
James Whitford:I think the same thing is happening in America today, we have people who are in poverty. We treat it like a complicated problem. We look at it as a diagnosis, with a set of symptoms like I don't have housing, I don't have cash in my pocket, I don't have food. Those are common symptoms to the diagnosis of poverty. So what are we going to do? Well, we can give you housing, we can get a HUD housing voucher for you, we could get you on food stamps or run you through our food pantry line. We can hand cash out to you on a corner while you hold a cardboard sign. But those are all treating symptoms. They're not addressing the underlying pathology or source of what's really going on, and so I think we're actually inflaming the problem of dependent poverty rather than bringing around real solutions to it. So sorry for a long-winded answer there, those are things that I've been thinking a lot about.
Scott Allen:Well, no, that's right. Before we went live here, I just did a little bit of research and I think any kind of discussion on poverty in the United States has to be kind of set up with the understanding that historically in fact, I just turned 60, so it was 1964, 60 years ago, that the Lyndon Johnson administration launched its war on poverty. You can't understand anything about our approach and our understanding of this issue in the United States without understanding that Sixty years ago that led to the federal government operating nearly 100 interrelated welfare programs spread across 14 government departments and agencies. Those programs cost taxpayers about a trillion dollars every year. So there's been this massive federalization of the way we understand the solution, if you will, or who's the responsibility of caring for the poor.
Scott Allen:What I'm hearing you say too in this previous statement is that you're trying to kind of move away from that distant federalization to a much more of a local approach. That's the civil society that you're talking about—families, churches, local institutions that are close to the people. That used to be the way that we handled issues of poverty in our history and still the way it's handled around the world for the most part, but not in the United States, because we've got this gigantic now industry, almost that's aimed towards trying to help the poor, but it's not by the government's own measures. As of 2022, this is what I found today 37.9 million people were still living in poverty in the United States. So we've had this kind of huge investment programs, money transfers of money, but it's not really been working. So, with that context, explain the mission of True Charity and kind of what change you guys are trying to bring about.
James Whitford:Well, I mean, we're talking about it, this very thing, and we think that there's. I mean the name, just the name, true Charity indicates there's something else on the other side. That's not so true and I think we could say false, but we could also say toxic. You know, there's a toxic charity and there's a true charity, and probably some of your listeners are familiar with the book Toxic Charity that Dr Robert Lupton wrote several years ago and worth restating the five steps that he outlines in that book to dependency, where if you give something to somebody once, they'll appreciate it, but if you give the same thing to that person again, they'll anticipate that it's coming a third time. If you give it a third time, they'll have an expectation for it A fourth time they'll feel entitled to it and a fifth time be dependent on you for it.
James Whitford:So it's appreciation, anticipation, expectation, entitlement and dependency, and just you know historically—.
Scott Allen:Just if I can pause you on that. I think that's really profound. I see that working in my own life. I think we can all relate to that at some level. I've seen myself kind of move down that if I have somebody just giving me something, no, it's so true, and I've gotten calls even from after I've mentioned those five steps.
James Whitford:I've gotten calls from people saying I have a problem with my own family in this regard staffing, and I remember one time talking with some management leaders about 50 of them, and they had hundreds and hundreds of staff that they felt like they were having an entitlement problem, and it boiled down to me asking the question of these managers are you holding these folks to the expectations that you laid out when you hire them? Are you holding them accountable to these expectations? And they, almost all of them, dropped their heads. They were not. And so I had an opportunity to say, hey, expectations communicate to a person that you believe in them, and when you let expectations down or you don't have any at all, it communicates.
James Whitford:I don't believe in you, I didn't believe in you, and it's one of the reasons why we champion so much the idea of exchange or reciprocity and charity work to be able to look at every person who's struggling in poverty and say, look, I see the need and I'm listening to you and I want to understand it, but I also see someone who's made in the image of God and the image of a creator with capacity to contribute and to create and then to enter into that kind of exchange or reciprocity in our charity work communicates.
James Whitford:I believe in you, and we need to be communicating that to people. We can't see people as objects of our benevolence. We must see them as subjects who have autonomy, agency and capacity to contribute. Our charity needs to uphold this imago Dei or the image of God in that regard, and I think that's where we're missing out, and the opposite of that is handouts, whether it's public or private, that end up trapping people in dependency. And I just, in fact, I just finished a book and the name of it is the Crisis of Dependency. So it just came out last week the Crisis of Dependency. And I do think we're in a crisis right now and we've got to transform the way we're practicing charity in the United States, which starts with a new understanding of the human person.
Scott Allen:Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up. That's really the sweet spot of our ministry, the Disciple Nations Alliance. We try to get down to these basic worldview level kind of questions and issues that are under everything, including how we understand poverty and the approach to poverty, and you've just put your finger on probably the biggest one what does it mean to be a human being? Different worldviews, religions, will answer that question very differently. You're operating clearly from a true or a biblical understanding.
Scott Allen:When you look at somebody, you see somebody who's made in the image of God and what that means is that they're not just an animal. Let's say, you know we don't treat people like we treat livestock or pets. You know, you know they're not just animals Contra Charles Darwin, or you know the kind of thing that we've been taught, you know, in our secular schools and universities. We're just highly evolved animals, were just highly evolved animals. If you start with that assumption, you end up with something kind of like we have, you know, in our poverty approach today, with a lot of dependency, you know, and you don't treat people for one as if they have agency, as if they have responsibility, but if they're image bearers of God, with God gave us this responsibility to care for creation. We have freedom to make choices, choices that have consequences, and we, you know, we have a moral responsibility to make choices that are wise, and there's consequences for foolishness.
Luke Allen:Hey guys, thanks for listening. I just wanted to take a quick minute to direct your attention to our core training here at the Disciple Nations Alliance called the Kingdomizer Training Program, which is a free biblical worldview training course. In this course, you'll learn what a worldview is and, more importantly, why there is only one worldview that actually works, that comports with reality.
Luke Allen:As Christians, we all know that there is only one God and one Bible, but we often don't think about how God also created one way for us to see and make sense of the world and therefore live according to the basic design for us in his world, and that way of seeing the world is what we call a biblical worldview.
Luke Allen:Unfortunately, when you become a Christian, you don't just automatically start seeing every part of life through a biblical worldview, so it's important to be discipled as you form this worldview and go through the process of being transformed in the renewing of your mind, as the Apostle Paul described it.
Luke Allen:And this is where I would highly recommend the Kingdomizer Training Program, as it is a great tool to help you continue to align your worldview with God and His Word. If you'd like to learn more about the Kingdomizer training program, just head over to quorumdeocom or follow the link in the show notes to see if this course is right for you or something that you'd like to lead a group through. As of today, people from 162 different countries have gone through. Wow, 162 different countries. I didn't even know there were that many in the world. Anyways, 162 different countries are going through this course and learning how to have a vision larger than themselves or their local church, but a vision for how to see every part of life through a biblical worldview. Join us as we learn how to bring biblical transformation into every corner of society by signing up for free today over at quorumdalecom.
Dwight Vogt:That being the case, James, you work in a highly secularized world of charity. It's not just a Christian world anymore in charity. I mean, you encounter that view. How do you experience it? How do you see it? How do you say well, there's a biblical worldview. You need to believe it, Because that's the true answer. What's your experience over there? Sure, Well, we don't shy.
James Whitford:Yeah, it's a great question, dwight. We don't shy away from our biblical worldview, but we don't necessarily lead with it. I mean, I think there are other ways to do that. For example, adam Smith in his seminal work Wealth of Nations writes something that's very profound but very simple. He said no one has ever seen an animal, through its gestures or cries, signal to another animal. This is mine and that's yours, and I'll give this for that. When I read that in Wealth of Nations, I thought that's so profound.
James Whitford:Animals don't do that. Now, that's a. When I read that in Wealth of Nations, I thought that's so profound. Animals don't do that. They don't enter into mutual, agreeable exchange for something that they want. Only humans do that. And so that means that if our charity somehow strips a person of his or her drive to contribute what he can or do what he can for something that he needs, then we're stripping from him some aspect of human dignity.
James Whitford:Now that goes back to what Scott was just saying. We don't treat people like livestock, and we shouldn't. Now, I haven't mentioned anything about a biblical worldview in that, but it makes sense. To a lot of people it's like oh yeah, that's true. Animals don't do that, only people do. So we shouldn't treat people like animals. We should enter into exchange with them to preserve that human element, that human dignity. And at the same time, we can go into Catholic social teaching and look at the idea of subsidiarity, where Pope Benedict in Caritas and Veritate, charity and Truth, said that reciprocity is at the heart of what it is to be a human being, which is so true. And then he went on to say and therefore becomes an antidote to an all-encompassing welfare state.
Scott Allen:Explain that a little bit more for our listeners. That's so wise.
James Whitford:Oh yeah. So reciprocity is the heart of what it is to be a human being, and I love how he drills a little bit deeper than some other writers on the idea of subsidiarity, subsidiarity being well. Let me just share another writer with you. Well, let me just share another another writer with you. In 1931, pope pius the 11th wrote this in his encyclical. He said just as it is a disturbance of right order to take from an individual what he can do through his own industry and initiative and give it to the community, so also it is a disturbance of right order and a grave evil to give to a larger association what a lesser, subordinate organization can do. So let me restate that Don't take from an individual what he can do through his own industry and initiative and give it to the community to do it for him, but don't take from the community what the community ought to do and give it to a larger association like the government. So it's this layering idea, that's what subsidiarity is all about. It's the vision of true charity, subsidiarity practiced as the norm nationwide. But going back to Pope Benedict's thoughts on reciprocity being the heart of what it is to be a human being, it's really echoing what Adam Smith was noting. It's the same thing, but I love the wisdom when he says and therefore becomes an antidote to an all-encompassing welfare state. And this is so true.
James Whitford:If we could practice subsidiarity in our charity and our policy, in our philanthropy, what we would see is a great antidote to an all-encompassing welfare state, because we would be starting with the person. Who are you and what can you do? What is your gifting and skill? How can you be the leader in your journey out of poverty? Those are the questions we ask first. And then it would be now, do you have family nearby, who's the closest connection to you to be helpful? Because they know more about you and honestly, we believe they've got more responsibility to be involved in your health. And then, is there a local civic institution, is there a church or a ministry in the community that could help you, before we look at municipality, cdbg funding or whatever it might be, or state or federal help. So if we actually layered that and did a good job with it, it most certainly would be an antidote to an all-encompassing welfare state.
Scott Allen:And what you're saying is very biblical too, james. You know the New Testament talks a lot about how our concern for poverty and brokenness needs to start in our own homes. You know, you know before you start looking out across the world, you know who is in your home that you can make a difference in the life of. And then you know it goes kind of out in concentric circles from that, but it's always yeah, it's that simple idea of subsidiarity. It's kind of a fancy word, but it's always yeah, it's that simple idea of subsidiarity. It's kind of a fancy word, but it just means what difference can you make with the people that you have responsibility? You know to care for your own children, you know, for example.
Scott Allen:You know, and then, but the problem is, of course we've been kind of trained away from that ever since 1964, you know where the federal government kind of stepped in and overstepped its boundary and essentially said in you know so many words, hey, we'll take care of that. You know, to the church, to the family, you know we got that. You know we'll take care of the poor right. And so we've kind of gotten into this mindset, I think in the United States generally of it's not my job to do that. That's the federal government's job. This distant, remote big bureaucracy that I'm paying taxes frankly to, that's their job. So I guess that gets down to the practical question, james. How do we in this environment, with this history, how do we recover that? What can we do? How does true charity help with that?
James Whitford:Well, I think, really, it starts with the church, frankly, and we certainly are doing some things to help the church be better in the practice of charity. But even going deeper than that, I think it's at the pulpit, at the pulpits of America. We need our preachers in America to preach the message of not hanging on to this life, but going ahead and letting go for the one that God has promised us through his son, jesus Christ. That we've got to realize if we're going to follow him, if we're going to go after him, we've got to take up a cross and follow him daily. It's this idea of sacrifice and selflessness and what Isaiah 58 says not only don't deny your own flesh and blood, which is what you were saying, scott but to spend yourselves on the hungry.
James Whitford:Some versions say extend your life to those in need, and so this is not easy, right? And yet there are people dying for a lack of life, real life, the flourishing life, and God is calling his people to extend life to other people. Well, that costs something and, quite frankly, as long as we're resistant to this call, that the mandate to give ourselves away, we're really not going to get there. That's necessary, it's very necessary. So the pulpits have got to come on fire and preach the truth with conviction, and that the Holy Spirit would come over his people and remind them of the Isaiah 58 promise of being like a watered garden and like a spring whose waters never fail. But it's on the other side of a cross, and so we've got to get there. I think that's really vitally important, but no, go ahead.
Scott Allen:Well, I think a lot of people you know, myself included, we really want to make a difference. Although I think you're right, this is an absolute. This is not an option for Christians, for followers of Jesus Christ I mean, the Bible's absolutely clear you have a moral duty to care for the poor. That's non-negotiable, and I agree with you that our pulpits need to preach that message a lot more than they do. But I do think people want to make a difference.
Scott Allen:I'm living in Oregon right now and almost every day the headlines in our local newspapers are dealing with issues of poverty, specifically homelessness. It's a huge issue, huge political issue, and I think most Christians want to help in some way. And they see the homeless right. I was just driving down the road the other day, you know, and there was a guy that was wrapped in a blanket right on the side of a highway stumbling around and my heart just broke for him. I kind of drove by and I thought I should have stopped and helped him, you know.
Scott Allen:But we see those people everywhere, you know, in tents, and you know we call it the homelessness problem and I think there's a problem there. You know. It's like you were saying earlier. We're dealing with a symptom. Well, they're not living in an apartment or a house. So that's the problem, you know, and it really isn't the problem. So, getting really practical, you know, for somebody, in my case here in, you know, relatively, you know, it's not a—I don't live in a major urban area. It's a town of a hundred thousand, large, large, homeless population, um, again, with putting quotes around that word, homeless there, um, what, what, what can people do that that helps them to do what they ought to do? You know that moral obligation to help the poor in this complex environment that we live in, you know, is it just a matter of giving them something? No, right, but what do we do?
James Whitford:Well, and yeah, I don't want to belabor the point, but I think that there are a lot of people in our country today who want to solve the problem of homelessness and poverty without having a desire to be with people who are struggling in homelessness or poverty, and as long as that scale is tilted that way, we're not going to get there. So, again, the desire to solve the problem is greater than the desire to be with people who are struggling in the problem in general. I think and we need to allow God to work on our hearts, the Holy Spirit to come and not just convict but also convey his compassion that when we come into contact with somebody whose life is so off track and hurt that we feel something that rises up in us that then compels us to do something. That's incredibly important. We teach this Compassion is the fuel for charity, but that doesn't mean that charity is effective necessarily. So you can have a lot of compassion and just continue to hand cash out on a corner to the same guy every time you go by, and that can be compassion driven, but it's not effective. So that's what true charity is all about. We understand that there are a lot of compassionate people and there are actions that flow out of that compassion that are not healthy and, in fact, I would classify them in the realm of injustice. Right, because it's trapping people where they are rather than liberating them from the realm of injustice. Right, because it's trapping people where they are rather than liberating them from the grip of poverty.
James Whitford:And so what we would want to do and your question, scott, would be ask what church do you go to? Do they have a mentoring program? We have a mentorship model action plan that we've created that churches and organizations around the United States have implemented in their own works. So now there are mentoring programs that are happening. Why is that important? Because it's going to call an individual not to mass feeding tasks or mass dispensing tasks, but it's going to call them to diving deep in relationship with one individual over a longer period of time. And we've created a tool that helps organizations put that together and then lead volunteers and team members toward doing a better job, or community members, just in doing a better job of developing real relationships with people.
James Whitford:And that's incredibly important because within the context of real relationships, you're going to find accountability, dignity that is awakened in a person's life because they're suddenly realizing they have value as a friend.
James Whitford:There's going to be advisement that is given You're talking about now we're into the realm of bridging social capital. So my feeling is that the church should look less to be diverse in ethnicity and more to be diverse in socioeconomic status, because the church, since it's preaching a message that's common to the heart of man, regardless of status or wealth, becomes the very common ground for those who have to shake hands and sit down and break bread with those who have not, and in that relationships can be developed that are called bridging social Capital, which is incredibly important. And there's more and more coming out in the literature about the importance of people who are unemployed and poor being around people who are employed and how that can lead to work and a route out of poverty. So that's an idea it's going to start with how do I do a good job with mentoring and can I help lead that person towards some real opportunity in life?
Dwight Vogt:So you're saying you have churches involved in that. What does that look like? A mentoring program-based?
James Whitford:church. So sure I mean it is. Both organizations and churches have established mentoring programs utilizing the tool. But our model action plans, dwight, are straightforward enough that you can get what you need, but flexible enough to put them into play in whatever context you have. To put them into play in whatever context. You have Different videos and editable documents that are there that you can change as you need, and about a 25 PDF page guidance with hyperlinks that help an organization get started in something like that.
James Whitford:But we're going to take you through. What are the good rules? What are the healthy expectations? What are the right boundaries for a person when they're developing a relationship with someone else? What does mentoring look like? So that's what we put inside of that model action plan that helps organizations launch these programs where they're connecting people together in real relationships, and we've had beautiful testimonies that have come out of that and really we need to move more toward that in our nation today.
James Whitford:And we develop a lot of other model action plans too that are very helpful. We have a benevolence and financial assistance model action plan for churches, because churches very typically somebody comes up and they need help with the utility bill. They're looking at their account balance. They can write a check. They write the check and hand it over. That's pretty typical. So our benevolence and financial model action plan shares the how-to of diving deeper, being more investigative, asking some of the right questions and doing more than simply writing a check. Questions and doing more than simply writing a check, and so we've created a number of tools and training pieces like that for churches that are helpful.
Luke Allen:Would you mind sharing with us a story, a testimony of how this has worked out into someone's life?
James Whitford:Sure, Just had a testimony from Thrive, which is the name of the mentorship program, that its intermission is the name of the organization in Hammond, Indiana. So they started a mentorship program and I think before that they were basically kind of a clothing distribution ministry, but they've developed this mentorship program called Thrive and so we're getting incredible reports from people and how that's made just a radical difference in their lives. And so, Luke, I'm a little removed from some of that, like I wish. I could remember the quote of one of the one of the moms. I even want remember watching a video and hearing her talk about how she felt hopeless. She was homeless, had a child, didn't know what to do or where to go and ended up coming to intermission. And they talked with her about this program, got her in the program, developed a mentoring relationship with another individual and it was completely life transforming for her. Just to hear her testify to it is amazing, and so that's yeah, that's an example. Those kinds of things are, I think, taking place more and more.
Luke Allen:So Thrive's role in that was setting up the mentorship program where they connected that lady to someone else who had a heart to serve and they just made that connection and then kind of walked with them. Is that how that works? Yeah, yeah.
James Whitford:Intermission is the name of the mission, thrive is the mentorship program they created utilizing our model action plan, and so they built one. They built a program that they didn't have before, and think about how many churches and organizations are out there today doing the same kind of redistribution model without seeing real results, knowing they need to go deeper but not knowing exactly how to do it. And so we're really helping people shift the way they're doing charity to more relational, effective modes.
Scott Allen:So you're as a ministry, you're kind of servicing or providing resources, training resources, to groups that are on the front line with working with the poor. Is that a way of understanding it, James?
James Whitford:Yeah right, we have a network of organizations and churches. A third of them are churches, two-thirds are non-profits. In the United States, 220 across 32 states or so right now and we have built out scores of toolkits, model action plans and other types of training that are geared specifically to help people take the ideas that you and I have been talking about who is the human person and what is poverty, what should charity be and helping them take the ideas and put them into very practical application. So for us, our ultimate outcome they're practicing charity to something more relational, accountable, maybe moving from government funding to private funding. That's one of the things we look for. Is it outcome driven? Are you measuring things other than the number of people that come through your doors or how much food you've given away? Are you measuring human impact in the way of education or social capital or work finding a job? So we help organizations develop outcomes as well. And then, of course, anything that deals with exchange. We've got a number of pieces like our Christmas Market Model Action Plan. How do I and we've had, we've got a dozen or so churches and nonprofits that have put this into play and they've never done it before utilizing our tool? How do we take a Christmas giveaway program and turn it into a Christmas market where we're not stripping dignity and pride from the parent by handing the gift to their child, but allowing the parent to purchase or earn the gift and then be able to give it to their children? So that's a fantastic piece, but again, we're so a lot of different ways that we approach it. But basically it is how do we help organizations and churches put this stuff into practice? And that's what True Charity is doing, and that's one of our outcome domains. Scott and I mean just as far as, like new things that we've been working on, I'll share real quickly.
James Whitford:We know that bad charity crowds out good charity, because good charity is going to be real opportunity, not just service provision, and real opportunity requires effort from the recipient of it, and so anytime we're talking about effort, if there's an easier way out, human nature is take it Right.
James Whitford:And so bad charity that would be handout model is going to crowd out good, effective charity.
James Whitford:And so we know now we must ask the question how is bad charity funded?
James Whitford:Well, through philanthropy and policy. So we know that those arenas need to be impacted and we've taken some good strides in the last year, this last year in being more of an influence in the world of philanthropy and policy, developing deeper policy relationships with think tanks, training leaders to testify before their state legislatures nonprofit leaders like myself who maybe wouldn't think of themselves talking to a group of legislators. We're training them to do that because we think that's incredibly important. We're also developing a municipal policy playbook in partnership with a think tank that works on city policy, only called Better Cities Project. So those are some things we're doing in policy, but we've also developed some donor education because we know it's so important that donors understand the same principles that we're teaching nonprofit leaders, the things you and I are talking about today, and we hope that as we move forward in those other outcome domains, we're going to see those three pieces come together well, where practice and philanthropy and policy begin to think along the lines of true charity.
Scott Allen:Yeah, I want to run something that I've been kind of pondering for a couple of years by you, just to kind of get your thoughts on it, james, while I've got this opportunity. I saw a documentary a few years ago that had a big impact on me. It was called Seattle is Dying. Are you familiar with that?
James Whitford:documentary. I think I have maybe seen that or part of it.
Scott Allen:Yeah, I recommend everyone watch it. You can find it on YouTube. It was created by local news stations in Seattle just looking at the explosion of homelessness and crime in that city, which is common on all of our major West Coast cities and not even major ones ones like mine, all of our major West Coast cities, and not even major ones, ones like mine and it looked at the issue, the problem, in a really holistic way, which I appreciated. In other words, they interviewed the homeless themselves. They interviewed the police, businessmen that were affected by that large homeless population, city officials. They pretty much kind of interviewed everyone to try to understand why is this problem exploding and what's best to be done about it. This was really well done and kind of remarkable in that way. It didn't seem like it had a particular political axe to grind. It was just trying to get at what the heck's going on here. Axe to grind. It was just trying to get at what the heck's going on here and one of the things that they discovered was that you have, first of all, you have an exploding drug problem. You know, in states like Oregon they've, you know, famously, you know, loosened up drug policy and recognized just recently that that was a disaster. We created a huge group of addicted people and now they're trying to backtrack on that. But then that was compounded by the fact and then you've got broken families and so people are finding community amongst other homeless people. They're alone, isolated, and then you've got a city government that is kind of enabling it, trying to keep them comfortable and warm and sheltered, giving out tents, even giving out needles and things like this, seeing them as victims. I know just on that quickly, my daughter. She works in a downtown hospital in Phoenix and most of the people that come, she works in the emergency room. Most of the people that come in are homeless and they're very entitled. I mean, she says that they expect, you know, when they get into that emergency room, to be treated with. You know they want the right cream in their coffee and you know it's all just demand, demand, demand. You know, and it's hard for Kayla, my daughter, because you know it's just something is so broken there. But back to Seattle.
Scott Allen:So they discovered as well that these homeless people were often breaking laws. They were creating all sorts of problems for local businesses. There was a lot of theft, there was obviously all sorts of issues, urinating in public places or whatever it is, and the police were trying I think in some cases their best to uphold the laws that were on the books against those things, but the DAs in the city would immediately let them go back out on the street. So a lot of these people had been arrested 50 times and immediately were left back out on the street. It was interesting. The police were some of the most demoralized of any group because they just felt like it was fruitless what they were doing. They were trying to keep public safe and secure but it wasn't, you know, working. So, anyways, they ended up by asking the question is this compassionate, are we really helping these people? And the answer was no, we're just enabling. You know their problem and it's creating larger problems for the city. Move it to. They found a model out of rhode island, of all places. Um, that did it differently. They said.
Scott Allen:Step one was to recognize that the root problem wasn't homelessness. Often it was, you know, isolation from family and drug addiction. So you had to get them off of drugs, you had to get them into a place where that could happen. So you had to uphold the rule of law. That was the first thing they did. You had to uphold the rule of law so that if they violated the law they would be incarcerated. But the incarceration wasn't punishment, it was a purely controlled environment so that they could almost kind of force people onto drug rehab programs and get them clean, because otherwise they just wouldn't do it. You know, there just wasn't the incentive there to do that, so they were kind of forced into that and then once they were clean, then they did this kind of thing that you're talking about with partnering them with mentors who could actually help them to make the bridge back into the community, you know, and they were seeing some real success with that.
Scott Allen:But my thought with that was gosh, there could be a real place for the church here on the tail end of that kind of a program where the state has to do certain things right.
Scott Allen:I mean, you know it's hard If drug addiction is the biggest problem we're facing. It's hard for the church, you know, to kind of make people do anything. We don't have the sword, so to speak. But the state can. I mean they can kind of uphold the rule of law and help people get off drugs. But once people are somewhat clean, there could be a huge role for the church to enter into kind of yeah, kind of almost adoptive relationships with these people, where they kind of really come in and help them to take steps, practical steps, using maybe your training material. I just thought that I've always wanted to kind of explore that a little bit with someone like you, james, that idea where you've got kind of explore that a little bit with someone like you, james, that idea where you've got kind of a holistic approach to it, you know right, the Church has a key role to play, but it can't do everything you know.
James Whitford:No, you're right. I think I love the transitional aspect of what you're describing and I think that you need good, good law and order that has to be in place.
James Whitford:We're we're working right now. Well, we're taking a look at a bill that's being proposed by an organization called Cicero Institute. We have a good relationship with them and they have a bill that I think is rolled out in Arizona. They'd like to roll it out in Missouri. It is it's a drug-free zone around homeless service providers, kind of like drug-free zones around schools. Yes, you know, the dealer gets slapped hard and they want to do the same thing around homeless service providers and I think that sounds like a good idea.
James Whitford:So I'm always challenging when we're talking about state legislation. I'm always asking can this be done at the municipal level? Is there a reason why we would want it to be a state issue and not a city issue? But in general, I love the idea. I think that that makes a lot of sense and we need that kind of thing.
James Whitford:I also think it's important to and I've done this before where I've asked, not why are you out on the streets, but how are you existing? How are you existing out on the streets? And you know, one time I asked a handful of folks this and they said, well, and these were folks who were struggling with addiction, they couldn't come in the mission, my mission in southwest Missouri, because of what most people call a dry shelter. Right, it's basically you need to come in sober, and so you can't be high or drunk, and come in. We're not a low barrier shelter. And so I was just asking these folks, how are you existing outside? I mean, you've been outside for a long time. These were five of the 270,000 or so unsheltered Americans which were all seen and everybody's hearing about it in the news and we and we are not sure what to do. And I said, how are you existing? They said, well, we sell food stamps 50 cents on the dollar. We sell government subsidized cell phones 50 bucks a pop and we pay and handle. And I mean, that was. They just answered me just as openly, as we were just sitting in the foyer having a coffee together and I'm just talking with them about issues and things.
James Whitford:And I think that's important to communicate, because we can see people who are living in tents on the sidewalk, who are addicted. But you got to ask how are they staying there? How is this continuing? How's it being enabled? And I think that bad charity, both public and private, can be part of the culprit. In fact, in Portland it's been about a year and a half ago now that a woman was doing an interview with a street reporter. It went viral, actually, and she's got a tent. She's homeless, she has a tent beside her and he's talking with her about things going on in Portland and she says you know, it's like people will bring us food in the morning, they'll bring us food in the noon, they'll bring us food at night. She said we can just actually sit in our tents all day and do drugs if we want to.
James Whitford:And then she said you know, they're loving us to death and I thought what an interesting turn of that phrase, right, but I do think to some extent that is a lot of what's happening. So I love the idea of good law and order. Can we help you then transition into a program Where's the church at that point to connect with those individuals and begin a more hopeful journey, you know, when the head is a little bit clear and maybe there'd be an opportunity for the church to be right there. But we can dry up bad charity that's going to help move people in these directions, I think, rather than keep them trapped in chronic poverty and homelessness, which is much of what we're seeing today.
Dwight Vogt:Yeah.
Dwight Vogt:I want to just share a reflection too, as I'm listening to you, james, and to you as well, scott. Back to the worldview of what does it mean to be human? And I'm thinking, you know, we're always accused of judging people as Christians because, well, we have a biblical view of this and a biblical view of that. But I'm thinking that even if you, you know, you can avoid judgment completely, but if you don't actually see human beings the way God made them and created them, you really and James, you've made this clear you don't have a starting point to work forward from and back to. And I'm just thinking because I struggle with this. I have to remind myself when I, you know, I drove by a guy the other day. That was just, he was just going crazy on the street, you know, and he looked crazy and he scared me. I could never talk to him. But you have to remind yourself.
Dwight Vogt:There is a human being created in the image of God. He was made to create, he was made to give, he was made to live in a reciprocal relationship with others, he was made to work. That happened before the fall. He was made to be accountable because he's going to stand before Jesus someday and say what did you do with your life? And to be reminded of all these things wrapped up in that human being right there and say that's the destiny for that person. I don't see it right away, but if I could remember it, I just feel like that's essential, because then you can say, okay, this is where we need to get to. But if you have no idea where people need to get to, yeah, they'll never get there. They may never get there, they may die. But you've got to have a vision for where people should be, and I think God gives us that clearly in Scripture and I hear you saying that and I just want to reinforce it to whoever's listening.
James Whitford:Yeah, I think it's a great reinforcement. Yeah, we need the eyes of Christ for people and regardless of who he encountered, he was ministering to what he saw on the other side of the ministry and we need to have that kind of vision when we're ministering to people.
James Whitford:That being said, things like the five steps to dependency that don't have any reference to scripture directly make so much sense to so many people. So I think there are some common sense, logical approaches, but ultimately the best approach would be to see people as God sees us, to see people as made in his image, and you're right, that would be the best thing.
Dwight Vogt:If we all did that, charity would be very different. Well, and it just gives. You're saying poverty is complex and if you have that view, well then you can look at a person we have a good friend where he comes out of a very difficult situation and is headed for the street as a foster kid and now he's in the university and he's going to go for his master's. And you know he's a complex person and the question was how can we help him move towards what God made him to be? And it's not the same for every person. Like you say. He's got his unique path to become that person and yeah, it's tricky.
Scott Allen:I think you know, just even the question of poverty, you know, gets defined around this deeper worldview question of what does it mean to be a human being, what's the telos of human life? You know what's the end and you can have. I mean, the Bible has a pretty rich understanding of poverty, far richer than or deeper than a secular, materialistic, you know worldview, which you know. I remember somebody in the Johnson administration, at the beginning of the welfare state, saying something like you know, if we just give the poor enough money, they won't be poor anymore. I mean, that was the analysis and you know it's all material Just give them money. You know, give them stuff.
Scott Allen:But I remember, you know, in contrast to that, mother Teresa, when she came to the United States in New York you know she's passed away now, but when she came to New York from Calcutta, india, she said this is the poorest city I've ever been in in my life. India, she said this is the poorest city I've ever been in in my life. What did she mean? Clearly, people weren't dying on the streets of poverty, like they were hunger, like they were in Calcutta. And when she was asked that question, what do you mean? She said there's no love.
Scott Allen:People are made, dwight, you were saying, to create We've talked about that but they're also made to love and to be loved. That's how God made us to love him, to love others and she recognized that there just was an absence of that. And I've seen that, even in the United States, that you can have these kind of well-intentioned programs to help the poor but there's no love and you feel like—and I've been to slums in Dhaka, bangladesh, where there was incredible poverty but there was relationships and families that were intact and there was love. You felt the love and it was much better.
James Whitford:I thought, man, the poverty is much worse in the United States than it is in Dhaka, bangladesh, for that one difference there. Yeah, in my book I have a little interlude. It's a fictional story, but I think it's so true and what it communicates. It's a people living in a very impoverished community and, uh, someone comes over the mountainside and says, hey, you want to come with me and I'm going to take you back to this place. That you know is of folklore, like it's kind of the utopia idea. I'm going to take you there and nobody wants to go, except one family. So there's a family, multi-generation family. They say we'll go, and so they start this climb up the mountain.
James Whitford:Meanwhile the city administrators figure out. So they start this climb up the mountain. Meanwhile, the city administrators figure out how they're going to drill underneath the mountains to get across, to make a shortcut. They're going to try to get a shortcut to this utopian city that's on the other side.
James Whitford:Anyway, the family is climbing the mountain and they reach the peak finally, and then they get on the other side and and they look down and there's no city, and they end up coming to the realization that the joy of the direction, the community, the music, the fires they've had, the sharing of life that they've had all of the things that they had described as part of the utopian city actually was occurring on the journey there, that there really is no shortcut, and I think that's so vitally important. When we think about poverty, it's not so much an end as it is a state, and if that's the case, then its solution is not so much an end but maybe more so a state, a state of purpose, a state of freedom, a state of vision, a state of being in community, and these are, I think, things that when a person is there, regardless of whether they've got money in their pocket or not, they don't feel poor. Yeah, that's really good, james.
Scott Allen:I really love that. I think that's very biblical as well. I mean those are biblical worldview assumptions at the foundation of all of this. And yeah, you know, I mean you go in very different directions. When you start with very different worldview starting points whether it's in poverty fighting or education or anything you end up with very different approaches and programs and outcomes. And you know measurements yeah, go ahead dwight.
Dwight Vogt:All right, I was just thinking. And it starts young, you know, reflecting back on this young man that we're friends with and we we try to help. He has a family that's in four different stages of of towards poverty or towards coming out of poverty, and he's finally realizing oh my goodness, I can't give my mom more money because that will hurt her and and so. And he's just growing and his heart is getting bigger and bigger and bigger and he's clear in his thinking and it's interesting, interesting to see him maturing where his other has a sibling that's dematuring and a mom that never matured, but now he's trying to help them Anyway, but he's happy, like your journey up the mountain. We're watching him do that mountain.
Scott Allen:Dwight, maybe you could share just a little bit more of your story, because I think it's a great way for Christians to be practically involved.
Dwight Vogt:I don't want to, you know, put you on the spot, it's a foster kid that we got to know when he was in a group home and we just stayed with him.
Scott Allen:And what age I mean? You guys have been doing this for many years. Well, he aged out.
Dwight Vogt:eventually he aged out here in Arizona and we just stayed with him. But what I love about what you've done is Dwight is.
Scott Allen:it's very personal, it's very individual. You weren't trying to solve all poverty in Phoenix. You were trying to make a difference in the life of this young man. Well we weren't even trying to solve his problem. We just liked the guy and it was actually an area where the state kind of needed help, right Like it was kind of calling out to the church saying hey, we could actually use some help here, you know, we've got all these people that don't have families, and the state has been really helpful to this young man in terms of helping with education.
Dwight Vogt:There's grants for age-out young people, but what's exciting for us to see is the development of his soul and his vision for his life and family, and just these things you're talking about, james. What is poverty? And how do I help people out of poverty, as opposed to help them stay in poverty?
James Whitford:and a simple decision like I can't give my mom money right now, and I'm the one that has it and she doesn't, you know so anyway yeah, I mean, obviously you've, you're a model, or you have modeled Dwight the one on one investment that's necessary, and now you're seeing some of the fruit of that as someone. Or you have modeled Dwight the one-on-one investment that's necessary, and now you're seeing some of the fruit of that as someone that you have cared for and not that you had. And I love what you said. It wasn't really just about like you weren't striving for some particular outcome, we just liked him. I just love that.
James Whitford:I think that's so great. I mean, it's just loving the person and wanting to be a part of that person's life, and now there's fruit. I think every listener should hear what you've said, because we sometimes think, well, we've got to figure out how to solve the big problems, or we need to solve poverty in our city, but really it boils down to I just want to go be with some person and just get to know that person, share life a little bit, and that is a game changer. If we all did it, it would be a game changer.
Dwight Vogt:And my other point would be to start with them young, because you can help people get out of poverty. Like, helping this guy's mother is a real challenge. I mean, her mind is set in a very strange way and it would be miraculous and God could do it, but it would for her to change her view of the world, but for him to grow out of that it's been possible, and I think with young people maybe the answer is the next generation, not the last generation, in terms of stopping homelessness or arresting it somehow.
James Whitford:Well, we certainly do need to get upstream. Yeah, and I know, luke, you're going to wrap this up, but you're right, we do need to think about being proactive and looking at how can we impact our youth today. I think that's incredibly important and hopefully God help us to instill the values that you know he's instilled in us through scripture that the importance of family and how the nuclear family is the foundation for a healthy society, and that there's a success sequence. If you want to live that out, it's you know. You need to graduate and you got to get a job before you get married and have a kid, but if you just will operate through that success sequence, you're not going to be in poverty. These are things you're right we need to teach our children and so, um, I, I, I hear you. You know, impacting the youth of today is incredibly important.
Luke Allen:Yeah, dad, I'll let you wrap it up, but before we do so, I'd like to hear a little bit more James about the new book, the Crisis of Dependency, and then after that, if you could just share with our listeners a couple of ways that they can find out more about you guys and what you're doing and hopefully get plugged in.
James Whitford:Yeah, I had it on my heart to write a book for a while, just because I've seen so much over 25 years of being in, you know, frontline ministry work and I've seen a lot of issues of dependency, perverse incentives that are drawing people away from what would be better and it felt like I needed to share those stories and I needed to couple that up with some statistics and research that's out there and try to bring that together and synthesize it. So it's called the crisis of dependency. I believe that we do have a national crisis today and I think that there is a remedy, but we need to recognize that there's a problem, and so, anyway, yeah, it's a short book, it's not a long read. The Crisis of Dependencycom is a landing page for it, the Crisis of Dependencycom and a little video there where I share more about that as well.
James Whitford:And then, yeah, for anybody who's listening, whether you've got a church or an organization that helps the poor, or, yeah, your church family, go to truecharityus and consider how we might be able to serve an organization or church that you're associated with and we have a heart to serve. In fact, from the very beginning, my wife and I founded our mission Watered Gardens Ministries out of Isaiah, chapter 58. And we've had a heart to serve the church and its mission to help the poor. That's our purpose statement for Watered Gardens. And so we continue to carry that heart of service into true charity, wanting to serve churches and organizations, to take the ideas that are stimulating and that we kind of in our hearts know are good and true but don't know how to put them into action.
James Whitford:And we'd love to do that. Often it starts with a community workshop where we gather a bunch of nonprofit leaders together in a city and we'll do an all-day workshop through Seven Marks of Effective Charity, based on Marvin Olasky's the Tragedy of American Compassion. And it's a great workshop and people love it. But that's usually the jumpstart inside of a community. Sometimes folks are hungry for that and they want to try to get one organized. Give us a call, reach out to us truecharityus, and we'd love to see how we could come and be a part of what's going on in your city.
Scott Allen:Great, that's great, james. Those are really practical things for people to do, and thanks for what you're doing, thanks for the book and for your powerful biblical insights and for the resources you've made available in your training. So, yeah, if this is you and you want to kind of start something new in your community, if this is you and you want to kind of start something new in your community, start some new directions and new ways, I would encourage you to reach out to James and to True Charity to read his book. And, yeah, just, we are grateful, james. I just want to encourage—I'm challenged even now listening to you, dwight, I've got to—I think this is a question all of us have to wrestle with is who is that person God's put in our life?
Scott Allen:Obviously, we have our own family we have to care for, but, beyond that kind of that next step out, who is it that God is calling you to make a difference in? What person? What family? So I think it does kind of start there. So let's be praying about that, having our eyes open, just like the parable of the Good Samaritan. The first thing that he did was he stopped and looked, and that's what we have to be able to do stop and look and see, because we're all very busy. James, thanks for the time today and just grateful for you and for the work of True Charity, and we're appreciating the time that you've given us today.
James Whitford:We're grateful for you too, and again, I've so enjoyed this conversation and thanks for taking time. I know we've been on a call for more than an hour now, but I've thoroughly enjoyed the talk and really appreciate you guys and the partnership that we have with you.
Scott Allen:All right, well, thanks everyone for listening to another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance.
Luke Allen:Thank you for joining us for this discussion with James Whitford. For more information about today's guests, to find all of the resources that we mentioned during the discussion and more, please visit this episode's page, which is linked in the show notes and is also right on the homepage of our website, which is disciplenationsorg. If this is your first time listening to this show, ideas have Consequences is brought to you by the Disciple Nations Alliance, which is a ministry that has worked around the world for the last 28 years, training over a million people in over 90 nations in the transformative power of a biblical worldview. If you would like to learn more about our ministry, you can find us on Instagram, facebook and YouTube or on our website, which again is disciplenationsorg. Thanks again for joining us here on Ideas have Consequences. We hope you have a great week and are able to tune in again next week for another episode.
