Ideas Have Consequences
Everything that we see around us is the product of ideas, of ideologies, of worldviews. That's where everything starts. Worldviews are not all the same, and the differences matter a lot. How do you judge a tree? By its fruits. How do you judge a worldview? By its physical, tangible, observable fruit. The things it produces. Ideas that are noble and true produce beauty, abundance, and human flourishing. Poisonous ideas produce ugliness. They destroy and dehumanize. It really is that simple. Welcome to Ideas Have Consequences, the podcast of Disciple Nations Alliance, where we prepare followers of Christ to better understand the true ideas that lead to human flourishing while fighting against poisonous ideas that destroy nations. Join us, and prepare your minds for action!
Ideas Have Consequences
Transforming Africa, featuring Terry Andrews and the God with Us discipleship curriculum
Discipling the next generation shapes the world of tomorrow and has never been more important, but finding the right curriculum can be a big challenge. Dr. Terry Andrews, a missionary with over 30 years experience in Africa, shares the profound impact she has seen with her God with Us discipleship curriculum. This innovative program has rapidly spread across Africa and beyond. Because it draws deeply on biblical truths from Genesis, it finds an audience among both Christian and Muslim youth, leading them to better understand and apply Christian principles. Engaging methods like storytelling and small group discussions captivate children’s attention and have been effective in schools, churches, and with sports teams. In addition, families and communities are healing and churches are flourishing.
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God's Word by itself is so powerful that you don't need a lot of bells and whistles and things to make it fancy. You don't need to dress it up, even just try to slant it in any certain way.
Luke Allen:Hi friends, welcome to. Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. As we say at the beginning of every show here on this show, our goal is to examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world, to all the nations, but our mission also includes being the hands and feet of God to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected this second part of her mission and today most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures.
Luke Allen:Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God. Today we have the opportunity to speak with someone who God has and is powerfully using to transform the nations. But before I introduce today's guest, let me introduce the team here First myself. My name is Luke Allen, I am the producer of this show and today I'll kind of be acting as the host, and I'm joined by my colleagues here at the Disciple Nations Alliance and my co-hosts, dwight Vogt and Sean Carson. How are you guys doing today?
Dwight Vogt:Good, Hi Luke.
Shawn Carson:Doing great Thanks.
Luke Allen:Great Good to have you guys on and, as I was saying, today's guest is truly one of those people who we could probably have you on once a month just to hear the incredible updates about what you and your husband are doing as you are spreading the gospel throughout Africa, spreading the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom there. I'm speaking about Dr Terry Andrews, who is our guest today, who works with the partner organization of ours, Root to Fruit, and who's joining us from Kenya. Terry, thank you so much for joining us today.
Terry Andrews:It's great to be here.
Luke Allen:Yeah, it's great to have you. I'm so glad we could schedule this kind of last minute, so thank you for the flexibility there. I'm looking forward to the discussion today. By way of introduction, dr Terry Andrews is a career missionary who has worked for the majority of the last three decades serving in Africa, first as a medical doctor, working in war-torn countries bringing emergency health and assistance to severely malnourished children, and then as the founder and CEO of Children in Christ CIC, which is now reaching and discipling over 257,000 children in 24 sub-Saharan African countries and in India, I believe. And then, after that, and most importantly for today's discussion purposes, you created the God With Us curriculum, which, as far as I can tell, is an extremely effective discipleship curriculum created to reach youth, whether that's in schools or in youth groups, churches or on sports teams. Currently, you are leading the branch at Root to Fruit with the God With Us curriculum and reaching over 10,000 youth and children in 200 different groups. And, as I just heard, the curriculum which we now have on our website at the DNA is now the number three most downloaded resource for us. So I'm glad that our DNA audience is also enjoying it and it's being able to reach more people in, hopefully, more countries around the world.
Luke Allen:For any of you guys listening, you might remember that Terry and her husband, tim, both joined us here on the podcast last year back in March for episode 63 and 64 of season one. So if you'd like to listen to that episode, which really gives a great overview of Tim and Terry's life of ministry, those episodes will be linked in the episode page. Sean, as we get into the God With Us curriculum today, you are more familiar with this than I am. Would you mind just you and Terry helping us give our listeners a synopsis of what we're going to be talking about today?
Shawn Carson:Yeah, terry, thanks again for joining us. It's great to see you and we're excited about hearing a little bit more of how and why you created the God With Us curriculum. For that I, just to me, I'd like to just jump in a little bit and just kind of hear a little bit of the background and what was kind of the inspiration and motivation for the curriculum that you have created.
Terry Andrews:Yeah, well, yeah, and it's great to be here and see you all and, yeah, I love what DNA does. We totally believe in it and I think this curriculum is just an expression of the things we've gotten from DNA in many ways, but I think, you know, I think probably it was a number of things at once. You know, I, as Luke indicated, you know, in about 25 years ago, had started a ministry to children that included some youth in Muslim West Africa and you know, there just isn't a lot out there, you know, to teach muslim children about christ, for obvious reasons, I guess. You know, um, but um, it was such a strong uh call when, when we were in guinea, I mean, there was just no question in my mind that somehow, you know, these kids had to be reached. And so, um, we started, really without a curriculum, just um, going through genesis and uh, because Genesis is, you know, it's referred to in many ways. Many of the stories in Genesis are also in the Quran and the. You know the Muslims respect the first five books of the Bible, just like the Jews do. So we just figured we could go through that In terms of.
Terry Andrews:I think I learned a huge amount in the process of going through Genesis and, you know, I think, definitely in the States and probably in Europe, there's a tendency, you know, for Christians, you know, to jump into salvation. You were a sinner, you were lost. Jesus died for you. Accept him, let's go. You know, but there's a huge foundation in the Old Testament that just brings so much depth into Christ and I felt like, even as I was researching Genesis, I was just being ministered to by God, you know, and some of the things I was reading about the foundation and the way that especially the first three chapters of Genesis although probably all of Genesis just paint a picture of Christ. And so I think the motivation, you know, in terms of the content, was finding something where there was nothing, you know, for ministry to Muslim children.
Terry Andrews:But I think the other things that motivated me was just, yeah, my two. I've raised two boys. They're both adults now and they've made it to adulthood but they both had ADD, like you know very clearly, and they weren't the kind to just kind of sit and listen to you talk or teach or preach, and so I was kind of forced from the very beginning Joseph was four, you know, when we we started children in christ and you came with me for all these things, you know. So, um, the uh, yeah, I I just felt a strong need for for things to be interactive and participatory and you know, I just I hate talking to or teaching, uh, anybody who's not interested in listening.
Terry Andrews:So, you know, this kind, this kind of, you know, I just felt and I felt it was very possible and it is very possible, and you know, without digressing too much, you know, I think Jesus used a lot of object lessons. He had a lot of conversations with his disciples and, you know, shared revelation gave foreshadowing and I just I think it's really the way to go. So that's kind of what motivated me, if you want to say, and I could go into, because what I want to make clear to anyone that's using the curriculum is that, although it's focused, you know this, this volume one and two is essentially out of the first three chapters of genesis and I just wonder if that is off-putting to people, because how can you have 50 lessons on the first three chapters of genesis? But, um, I could go into a little bit more detail about how the new salvation is in it, if that's appropriate, or I could make it a mystery for people to discover.
Shawn Carson:Well, I think Dwight has mentioned many times that Genesis 1, well, Genesis is one of his favorite books of the Bible. Am I right, Dwight?
Dwight Vogt:Yeah, no, that was what drew me to your curriculum as well, Terry. That was impressive. I want to jump ahead. I'm just curious, because you've been writing and working with children for a long time and you're also doing it in an Africa context. We see your curriculum and realize that it's been downloaded internationally, including the.
Dwight Vogt:US and the West and so it's got a wide appeal. But I know I sense that you have a better understanding of we deal in worldview here and you know that, yeah, disciple at the level of worldview and my sense is that you have an understanding of the African worldview for young people and I'm wondering what differences do you see and how did you shape your curriculum to appeal to that or to respond to that?
Terry Andrews:I think there's several things. This may not be exactly worldview, but you know American children have a lot of things to entertain them, to distract them, to get involved with, and so I see churches in the States doing probably a lot more bells and whistles, you know, really requiring a whole lot more of materials and object lessons and that kind of thing, whereas African children, you know they aren't used to. I mean, most of them have very little access to even a TV. You know no phones. You know no after school clubs. You know you're lucky if there's football, you know, in the afternoon. So you've got a little bit of a more ready audience and one that isn't going to be as picky about you know whether you've got the newest object lesson or the newest song.
Terry Andrews:Playing africa is very good. They love gathering, they love meeting, they love talking. Um, one of the things we started and again this may work anywhere, but I just see the kids and youth love it in Africa is working in small groups. So you know, when we do any lesson, you know there's a story and then we break them into small groups after the story which is acted out which is also a very African thing, which I'll get to, and in small groups they discuss questions or they plan you know part of the drama of the story or they share sometimes very deep personal matters. You know issues that apply to the questions. But the small group time is their favorite time and it's a time where you know either a youth or an adult or one of the more leadership oriented kids you know, sort of takes a lead of the group. But everybody gets a chance to share, everybody gets a chance to participate and that's what they want.
Terry Andrews:You know, and I'm actually a bit out of touch to be honest with you know, american kids, I, you know I know some of them might feel too cool, you know, to have to participate, to participate or shy, and might feel put on the spot. But in Africa, with these small groups, if anyone doesn't get to participate, they feel left out for the most part. Another thing is they love drama at any age. This thing really works for African youth. They just get excited when they get to start performing something. You know they like hamming it up, they like planning it, they like doing sort of creative little things and I think that's, you know, that has done a lot to bring the story alive. You know for for the youth, because actually you know when you plan a drama, when you think about the Bible story which we take straight from scripture and you want to present it to other people. It's a way really of studying and meditating on God's word. That's just a little bit more active and participatory and it works very well for Africa.
Luke Allen:Yeah, terry, help me out, I haven't gone through this curriculum. So, for myself and for our listeners, just walk us through real quick. What? What was that first lesson? Let there be light, or God is light, just walk us through. How does this work? What does it look like? Is it some reading and then some discussion questions? Or how would this work in a small group?
Terry Andrews:Right. So I mean, first I need to give Dwight credit and there was light. It was essentially, you know, I mean it's the first five verses of Genesis and yeah, I think 20 years ago, you know, I was working on curriculum then, working on curriculum then and Dwight challenged me for some reason to see if we could do, you know, 20 lessons for youth or children. That took place before the fall and I felt that was impossible.
Terry Andrews:There's basically two chapters in the whole Bible. So you did 50? You did 50? No, no, it's actually. It's either, it's exactly 20, and.
Dwight Vogt:I wasn't even trying for 20.
Terry Andrews:The other 30 are the fall.
Terry Andrews:All right all right and beyond the fall and beyond. So, yeah, so, and there was light. You know is a typical, actually, let me do Light Conquers Darkness. I've got two lessons on the creation of light and you know, the first one is basically, you know, basically goes through the first five verses of Genesis, you know, in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, you know, et cetera, until you get to and God said, you know, let there be light. And there was light, and God saw that the light was good and he, you know, split it into day and night.
Terry Andrews:So, basically, this one, we would start with a little bit of introduction, you know, in terms of, you know, it's our first lesson probably ever with the kids and, you know, talk about light we might talk about. You know, are you afraid of light? You know, how does light, how does I mean, how does light make you feel and how does darkness make you feel? And then they answer that that's in the first lesson. And then the part B of the lesson, and maybe I'm jumping around too much, we talk about light conquering darkness. And so we, we asked the kids you know they actually Luke, should I just stick with one lesson? I think maybe I should just stick with one lesson.
Luke Allen:Just walk me through, like like, I'm a student, you're the teacher. How does this work?
Terry Andrews:Okay, okay, all right, okay, then we'll start with that. You, here's the lesson. It's the very first book of the Bible and the very first chapter, and the does darkness make you feel? And the kids respond, and then you know, I'm afraid, I can't see, et cetera, how does turning on a light change this? And the kids talk about that, and then we have the story.
Terry Andrews:Now the story here is, you know, a minimal story, but it's God creating the heavens and the earth, and I won't take the time to read it. I think I've already just spoken about it, but it finishes with, you know, and God said let there be light, and there was light. God saw that the light was good and he separated light from darkness. God called the day a light day and the darkness he called night, and there was evening and morning the first day day. And the darkness he called night, and there was evening and morning the first day. And um, so then, um, we do, um, we may or may not.
Terry Andrews:Yeah, we break the kids this one. We actually. Yeah, don't break the kids into small groups yet we have them act out the stories the first time they've done this and it's actually really interesting. They read, they read the story, if they can, or we tell them the story again, and then they identify parts you know and parts could be people, places or things. So you know, for instance, we could say we ask them to stop us whenever they hear a part that should you know that could be played by somebody. So you know, for instance, we say you know in the beginning God, and then they yell should you know that could be played by somebody. So you know, for instance, we say you know in the beginning God, and then they yell stop. You know, god is a part you know.
Terry Andrews:And then you know, we say who wants to be God? You know, created the heavens. Stop. It's actually very, very fun and very interactive and, and through that, you know, we, we, we identify parts and then kids become those parts, and this is in this. Actually, it's quite a challenging one to act out, you know, when you think about it, because there's the heavens and the earth, that's not too hard. The earth and water is over the earth and the spirit of God is hovering around, you know, and we end up getting just sort of circles of kids hovering around, you know, kind of showing. You know how it looked and it's actually, I mean, it's really fun to think through and they have fun doing it. And you know, thank God, you know, let there be light. So after that we let the group retell the story. You know, we asked the kids and when they acted out, they remembered. It's like you don't have to ask them to memorize. You know what happened first, what happened next. You know, and especially the people who played the parts of the light or the Holy Spirit or whatever, you know, they'll jump in with what their part was and they've discovered that they can actually tell the story and the story is in them. Now for this one.
Terry Andrews:Next, we break into small groups and we were really picky about small groups. They shouldn't be any larger than 12, and even 12 is large and different countries, you know, probably there are different sizes, but in Africa it's just so easy, you know, to gather 40 or 50 kids and you really have to stick with a small group scheme, you know, to make it work. And then in the small groups we just ask them questions and you know I'll pick a few of the questions, you know, just first to just make them comfortable with answering. You know what was the earth like at first? We asked them why do you think the Spirit of God, or what do you think the Spirit of God was doing when he was hovering? And it's really fun to hear their answers and a lot of them, I think, are quite accurate. You know they'll say oh, he was. He was getting, you know, the earth ready for creation. You know he was trying to drive away the darkness. You know they have a lot of ideas and you know I think, yeah, I think a number of them are close to the truth. We asked them why they think God created light first, and then the next question is key to me. And, yeah, we asked what was the light? Because there was no sun, moon and stars, you know. So it wasn't that that he was creating. So what light, you know, was he bringing into the situation? And and that's a fun one to hear their answers to, and but some of them can't, can't figure it out, but usually within a small group there'll be someone that comes up with you know, somehow God is the light and you know it was him stepping into the scene, you know that got creation going. So that's a fun discovery. I'm just thinking.
Terry Andrews:I know Dennis Tongoy talks about the light being revelation, but that doesn't come up so much when we talk with the kids. And then we do, you know, we talk about how is the darkness that covers the earth, how is that like struggles in our life and what does it mean to separate light and darkness in our life? So that's kind of the conversation, conversation, um. And then we go on to teach them um about um verses that show that god is the light revelation. 22, 5. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of sun, for the lord god will give them light, or you know, first john 1 4 god is light and in him there is no darkness at all, so that they can really understand the scriptural basis for god being light. And that's the end of that lesson.
Terry Andrews:Then we talk about obey. So if I finish the whole sequence, it's not the end of the lesson. Every lesson ends with how will you obey the lesson or what is one action you will take because of this lesson. Sometimes we suggest an action, sometimes we ask them, and a lot of their suggestions there have to do with separating light and darkness inside of them and what that might mean. And then, um, the last two parts which are really important is who will you share this lesson with in the coming week? And then we ask what will you share? Because, um, in sharing, you know, the lesson just becomes deeper in you and it also spreads. And, um, and the kids just becomes deeper in you and it also spreads. And the kids are great about sharing.
Terry Andrews:And even youth, they like to have something of substance to tell their buddies. And you know, especially right where we are in Kasarani, it's majority Christian. So you know, and Christian or religious education is one of their subjects. So they like kind of being up on things. And you know it's not hard to do. I will tell you, even in the Muslim context, parents ask their kids all the time what did you learn? Because they're curious. You know, they know they're not supposed to know, but they're curious.
Terry Andrews:What is being taught in this? You know, genesis thing that Christians are running so and then we end up with prayer. The very first one has so much action in the drama that we don't do an object lesson. But I'll just very quickly tell you how lesson two adds on to it. You know it adds on to the sort of struggle with sin and darkness and that kind of thing. But we have a just a little object lesson that shows how walking in darkness keeps us from our destiny. And we, you know, we call up a child, you know, ask him what he wants to be. You know, pilot, nurse, doctor, whatever, and then we'll put like a I mean ideally we'll put a cookie or a sweet, you know, we'll say this is what you want to be, this is your destiny, you know. And we'll put it in some chair far away. Or, you know, let's say, I don't know, 10, 20 meters away, and then we blindfold the child and said. We said but you're in darkness're in darkness.
Terry Andrews:How are you going to find your destiny? But try, go ahead and try. We spin him around and in the meantime other children are instructed to put obstacles in front of him and mislead him. And it's amazing how funny it is and how disorienting it is. I mean, we all know this Once you get spun, you can walk in completely the wrong direction, you know, or you know you run into something you don't know what it is and it's confusing. Or we don't.
Terry Andrews:We don't do voices this time, although we, you know, we do that with other object lessons, but it's rarely does the child actually the other children kind of make sure this kid doesn't reach his destiny anyway. But even if they didn't try too hard, you know they don't reach it and it's very clear, you know. And so then we say, well, what happened? You know why didn't this kid reach his destiny? And they'll say, well, you know, he was confused, or he started in the wrong direction, you know, or he didn't know what to do with the chairs, he didn't realize that he could just walk around them. You know, he was afraid, he was too unsure of himself, you know, and these are all things that darkness and walking outside of God's presence you know bring into our lives. You know it's a lack of direction, you know it's obstacles that we don't know how to get around. It's fear, you know.
Terry Andrews:So then we take the blindfold off and we say now, you know, this kid has God in his heart, there's light in him and let's see how he gets you know to his destiny this time. And of course he makes a beeline for that sweet. But I'm telling you, yeah, youth in Africa do this too. So it's an example of an illustration. And I just wanted to say, you know, the reason we start with darkness and light is that speaks to any religion and any faith in any country, and definitely speaks in Africa, where witchcraft is still a big thing and there is actually a real fear of darkness, you know, of dark beings. So it's something where you can connect with kids about God, no matter what their background. Yeah, I think that's.
Luke Allen:Yeah, go for it, dwayne, on that topic, do children in Africa still move towards animism, I mean how does that work?
Dwight Vogt:I know, their parents sometimes, are often animistic.
Terry Andrews:Right, you know Kenyan children are, let me say, probably more developed than many countries in Africa, but there is still very clear awareness of the spirit world and a fear of the spirit world. And in fact we're just starting writing a new series on spiritual warfare and it's just very clear. And we've done other lessons where kids tell you know we're supposed to share stories that are cultural stories and they won't talk about it. You know they're not supposed to talk about it in school. They also know that you know the intelligent quote, the quote intelligent, developed world doesn't believe in spirits. You know, which is our mistake. But the they do, you know. So they won't tell you about it right away.
Terry Andrews:And also, you know they know there's something wrong with the darkness and definitely there's a secrecy piece to the darkness, so it doesn't come out right away, but if you spend any time with them, you know they're afraid of curses, you know very afraid of curses and there's certain things they don't want to do for fear of retribution. You know whether it's witchcraft or curses. And yeah, so I mean, in some ways it's refreshing to me because there is a spirit world out there, you know, and I feel like Americans and the West. Just write it off and it's much more real out here. Um, if anything, I think you know there's a lot of fear engaged with it and um, yeah, so I don't know if I answered your question, if there's no, it's good okay okay, I, yeah, I'm.
Luke Allen:I mean, this sounds fascinating. On the podcast we talk about Genesis a bunch, as you know, and just at the DNA in general, because it's where you lay out the blueprint for the biblical worldview.
Luke Allen:I love that you started with let there be light and you pulled so much out of that, because I don't know, I'm just thinking of myself as a kid going through something like this. When I was introduced to the gospel as a kid, it was usually what happens to you after you die, you know, do you go to heaven or something? And as a kid, you don't tend to think about death too often At least I didn't.
Luke Allen:I think maybe some kids do Uh, what I'm more interested in is how do I live right now, tomorrow, the next day, you know how do I treat my friends, my family, Um how do I?
Luke Allen:you know, grow up and become the person that God wants me to be, or the, you know, a good person, or something like that. And if you can start with walking in light, walking in the design that God gave for you, the one that's clear, where you can see the cookie at the as your destiny, something to run towards instead of stumbling around with your friends getting in your way, um that makes that makes so much sense that maybe, maybe that's just me, but that that's a good starting place.
Luke Allen:And then, of course, you want to introduce the gospel and what happens after you die in heaven and all of that as well. You can walk them through that, but just that object lesson I think is so impactful as uh, yeah, yeah, and that speaks to any kid, like you were saying, Um, so I love starting there and yeah, that's something I think adults need to do more often is just how do we? How do we?
Luke Allen:walk in the design that God gave us to live in um instead of stumbling around in the darkness Um so yeah if you teach this in the U? S, though, guys, uh, you might want to get a waiver from the parents before you do the object lesson with the obstacles in the way.
Terry Andrews:Oh, I know, I know we're too safety conscious. That's why I also wonder whether these things wash, you know, especially in the United States. But yeah, I did it in the US, but I don't. You know, I'm not in touch with many people that have. So, yeah, but yeah no, I think there's a reason God started with Genesis and I think there's a reason that Genesis unfolded in the order it did, you know, and yeah, I'm glad you're with me on that, yeah, with me on that, yeah.
Dwight Vogt:And the other thing is, if you, if you started I mean from my experience it's like starting in Genesis, and you guys, both of you alluded to this but it's the idea that God has a blueprint for, for, for goodness, for light, for finding the cookie, for living well, and then when you start there, yeah, you have the fall in Genesis three, but if you go through the Old Testament and you go through the New Testament, you will see the light, you'll see that blueprint, whereas I didn't always see the blueprint when I started with the fall. It's like you see the blueprint reflected if you see it at the beginning, and then you say, oh yeah, god does plan for this, he does plan for goodness, he does plan for this prosperity, he does plan for fruitfulness and productivity, and you can see it without being you know, because you started with it, so anyway, yes, yeah, I don't know.
Terry Andrews:Yeah, I feel like somehow that that's always been in your heart, because it definitely was. I'll never forget what you said 20 years ago. I was thinking well, how much goodness is there really? But it's just packed we haven't even unpacked it all with 20 lessons.
Dwight Vogt:But yeah, there's a real just beauty to the way he organized things and what he wanted us to do and what we can still do. I have a question about a lesson too. Next, Paula, you spend a lot of time on forgiveness. I think a couple of three lessons on forgiveness.
Terry Andrews:That's right.
Dwight Vogt:Why? Why is that? Forgiveness seems to me that you know it's. It's anti-justice it's passivity. Well, I'm going to forgive them. It's just let it go.
Terry Andrews:Oh my goodness, yeah, well, you know forgiveness is really. It's about setting yourself free. You know, among other things, and you know we take the tack on forgiveness I didn't know how powerful it would be and I walked through this myself because all of us have unforgiveness and was actually taught a few steps by someone in Uganda and it's what I turned into a lesson. But I'll just say, you know I don't know where to begin here. You know it totally hits a chord with the kids because, yeah, you're right, you know there's okay. So let me jump to your point and then jump back to forgiveness. You know there's definitely a lot of injustice that happens and there are things that adults do wrong to kids everywhere and definitely in Africa, and you don't just say, oh, I forgive you 100 times on that. You know we talk about. We actually we bring back light and darkness. You know, because when someone repeatedly offends you or hasn't repented because there's a difference between forgiveness and reconciliation forgiveness you can do by yourself. You know you can. You can choose to hasn't repented, because there's a difference between forgiveness and reconciliation. Forgiveness you can do by yourself. You know you can choose to forgive someone, whether they believe they've done anything wrong, whether they'll receive your forgiveness, whether they've asked for forgiveness and get your own heart straight, but you can't guarantee reconciliation. You can't guarantee that that other person is going to ask for forgiveness or feel they've done anything wrong. Many times they do, but they don't always and often they don't. I'll just say so. We make that difference and we also make a difference between yeah, the one who repeats over and over, they aren't learning anything, they aren't responding to your willingness to forgive and reconcile, and so they are acting like darkness. And when you release forgiveness in your heart, from the bottom of your heart, you're actually walking in the light. And what was the first thing God did? It's funny you asked about this because we come right back to that lesson he separated light from darkness.
Terry Andrews:And you know you, every kid, every youth, has something they really remember and unforgiveness that they're holding on to. You know, we talk about it being like taking a poison and expecting someone else to die. You know, and are being locked up in a jail. You know you got the key to let go, but your unforgiveness is going to keep you in that jail. And I won't get into the whole thing. We always do a skit, sometimes, actually, you know who else is using this lesson is. I'm not sure if you're familiar with them, but the organization Vision Fund in Kenya. They're a partner of World Vision and the adults there are using that lesson for forgiveness and we ask them to do a drama of unforgiveness and they always have, you know, something that's really going on, you know in their office and thankfully, you know, many times they feel free to act it out and it actually opens up a lot of conversation etc.
Terry Andrews:But then we do. I'll try I'll just try to wrap this up in two minutes because I know our time is short. But you know, we, we say when we have unforgiveness in our heart, so we just take out just a plain old empty water bottle and a pitcher with water and we say, you know, here's, here's you, you're this water bottle, you're ready to receive God's blessings, you know, but unforgiveness is blocking that. And you, you put a cap on the bottle and then you start with a dish around or with some protection. You pour water onto that bottle and you just see it all go around the bottle, but the cap is preventing from receiving the blessings and so then we go into. You know other things.
Terry Andrews:Why do we choose not to forgive? And they have a lot of reasons. You know a lot of it, just sort of pride, people won't learn. It's viewed as weak. In Africa, forgiveness can be viewed as weak, which is interesting. And then what is false forgiveness? Then we go into the fruit of forgiveness from the heart.
Terry Andrews:But I'll just list the four. I just want to tell you the four steps. It'll be quick because they're really powerful and they. They touched me and I could. I see them touching even adults. You know that, know what forgiveness is and but they're very, they're very straightforward and to the point.
Terry Andrews:And the first one is just acknowledging the pain that you were hurt, you know, and something wrong happened to you. And many times people can't even do that, especially if it's parents that hurt you, because you're not allowed to think badly of your parents. But in the fact you were hurt and something was taken from you that cannot be repaid, you know this, of course, is in tears, you know slander, or you know false rumors being spread about you, or you know, just often the thing that's taken isn't even, you know, money or anything, it's something that's hurting your reputation. So that's the first step. Then the next one is counting the cost, and that is what exactly have you lost? You know, and you know, I know, for me in one of my setups, you know I did lose, you know, sort of a big aspect of how people viewed me as to whether I was capable. I lost my self-confidence.
Terry Andrews:There's a lot of unseen things that you lose that the person who did that to you can never repay, and so then the next step is canceling the debt, and that one is, you understand, the person who stole from you will never be able to repay. So whether you forgive or not forgive, you know it's not going to come back. But in forgiveness you open yourself to God's blessings and I usually tell them although this isn't in the lesson, you know that if someone did something like that to you, they're probably suffering more than you and in need of more help than you. That helps me to forgive. I don't know if that helps everybody.
Terry Andrews:And then the last one, and it sounds almost silly. When I first heard it I thought this is silly, but it actually really speaks to people and we don't force anyone to forgive. You Say you know it may not be your time, you know, just process this If it's if you, if you can't do it from your heart right now, but but the if they have chosen to forgive, then pray for that person. But don't just pray for them. Ask that God bless them even more than he blesses you.
Terry Andrews:And that's actually a real hard step to take and it makes people think and so, and then after that we try, so we teach them that and then we play. Ideally, if it's at all possible, we play some music and then just speak out those steps just in a sentence, and then they kind of process it and go through the whole process and yeah, it is really really powerful, especially in the schools. I mean I just you can just see kids crying. You know heart hardened kids. You know if they come to terms with how hurt they were. You know I love that lesson and people love it too. They'll jump to that, you know, before they go through everything else sometimes, but you know it's okay, I guess.
Shawn Carson:Yeah.
Luke Allen:I have kind of a broad overall question. But this, this curriculum, it's making such an impact and it's spreading pretty rapidly right now. I just wonder what you if it's a little bit broad, but if you could take a guess at what the the message that's really striking a chord with people is. What is that core message that that's making this curriculum resonate with people in a special way? Um, because I mean, there's a lot of, there's a lot of discipleship curriculum out there there really is and yet this one seems like it's it's it's hitting a chord. Uh, what would you think that that is?
Terry Andrews:Um, okay, I think a lot of. It is okay that God understands that you are, you know that you're human and that you struggle, but that he has amazing plans for you. And I know when you say it like that it sounds a little bit trite, but he thinks about you, he has a design for you and it's okay to struggle and God understands your struggles, he wants to heal your struggles. To struggle and God understands your struggles, he wants to heal your struggles and I feel like that's one of the big chords. I feel like I don't know how to say this, but I love revelation. I love being surprised by something I've read a hundred times and then something new comes out. And the Muslims haven't been exposed to the Bible, so maybe everything's revelation.
Terry Andrews:You know, right now I'm dealing with a lot of kids and you know a lot of when we get feedback from the youth, at least in our groups here in our area of Naivasha. I mean, over half of them say I was no longer interested in church. I didn't want to go, you go, and I didn't want to read. And now I really love this Bible study. I'm coming back to church, I'm looking for Bibles. They don't have enough. So I think in Africa, maybe everywhere, there's certain things that are preached that they know what they're going to hear. You know, and unfortunately some of it has to do with good giving. A lot of it has to do with you're a sinner and you know Christ died for you. But there's so much revelation that hits you at a personal level and I also find that kids starting to ask other questions. You know that they haven't asked before. I mean you know they're just. I mean some of them may be they're not really silly questions, but you know I mean why didn't God kill Satan in the beginning? You know why?
Dwight Vogt:did he kill that's a good question. That's a really good question.
Terry Andrews:Yes, yeah, no, I mean, there's so many. It was sort of very straightforward, you know, and lots of those questions, although the curriculum does address this, you know as to why. You know, why did he let the snake come to earth? You know, and you know why were there two trees in the garden, although we have a lesson on that, but you know.
Terry Andrews:So I think I'm going to have to think through that, but you know, I think I think the chord it hits is, you know, god really sees them as a person, and I think the other thing that is attractive about it is it's not hard to teach. You know, the lessons are short and it's interactive, you know, I think the interactiveness makes it huge. Also, you know, and it's not complicated, interactions, you know. I mean, they'll know what a lot of it's going to be. They're going to be acting things out, they're going to be doing small groups. You know there'll be. I haven't even mentioned memory verses, but you know there's lots of fun ways to do that and yeah, so yeah, in a nutshell, I think he just sees them as people and I think letting them teach, you know, is what does it. And maybe the last thing, I'm sorry, I'm a rambler. So I don't know what you're going to make out of this, but I, you know, I feel like if the lesson is done right and it's not always done right some people will take this and use it to lecture, you know, which breaks my heart and we're still working on that with some people.
Terry Andrews:But if it's done right, at least a third of the lesson teaching will come from the youth or from the kids, even the first time it's being taught. You know, because when you ask them questions, you know even sort of like what. You know, what happened there when you saw the destiny thing? What happened there when you saw the destiny thing? And they'll start to say, yeah, they stumbled in the dark, they didn't know where they went, they were confused, they were fearful. And it's not teaching in the typical form, but they are understanding new things, they're speaking it out and it's a form of teaching with the others, teaching the others, you know, teaching the others. And so you know, when each group small groups stands up and shares with a large group, we're getting new things. I mean, I get, I get new things almost every time, and so I think the fact that they can sort of teach almost instantly is also a big thing yeah.
Luke Allen:Sounds great to me. I I am a terrible read-write learner. I always have been.
Shawn Carson:I'm visual I'm hands-on kinesthetic yeah, so. I'm like hey yeah, sign me up, here we go.
Luke Allen:I want to go back and join.
Dwight Vogt:Sean, did you have a last question?
Shawn Carson:Yeah, terry. One thing that I just really love is this focus on young people, and I think you know we at the Disciple Nations Alliance we want to disciple nations and I think sometimes we overlook anybody below the age of 18.
Terry Andrews:I tell you, I think it's a big mistake.
Shawn Carson:So for me, when I saw this curriculum I know Dwight's developed some curriculum that we have available for people as well, but when I saw this and just heard how it's being used and how young people are sharing it with other young people even younger than them, I was just so excited about it because I think it's one thing that makes it so unique. It's one thing that makes it so unique it can be done, and I've seen pictures of some of the people that you guys have trained just taking five minutes with somebody or a group of kids and sharing it, sharing a principle with them there, and to me that's really exciting. And I think something else that's just really great about what we're talking about today is, you know, we at the DNA we talk about worldview being a set of lenses for our hearts, our minds, that we view the world through.
Shawn Carson:And you know, when you get to be my age, you've got to go to the doctor and have those lenses remade you know, because I've learned so many bad things right, and I think when you start with young people, you give them an opportunity to develop lenses for their mind that are consistent and coherent with God and His Word. And you know you run across these cultural challenges and these lies that we all are hearing and being exposed to. But when you have God's Word and you have a worldview that's grounded in who he is and what he says, you can discern those lies a lot easier. You know and see. Well, I have a choice to buy into this lie or hold on to the truth.
Shawn Carson:So, so I'm really excited about that and I'm just really grateful. I'm excited that so many people have heard about it and are using it and I'm just really grateful to you for taking the time and the energy to make it happen and that's awesome. I think my last question would be to you would be what's one thing you hope that one of our, some of our listeners, whether they're in Africa or in Phoenix, arizona what would you hope that they would take away from you know, kind of the discussion that we've had today?
Terry Andrews:Okay, I think.
Terry Andrews:I mean, I think there's a couple of things I think. I mean. One is just very basic, and if they're your listeners, maybe this isn't news to them, but you know that God's Word by itself is so powerful, you know it's so deep that you know you don't need a lot of bells and whistles and things to make it fancy, you don't need to dress it up or even just try to slant it in any certain way, but, honestly, just by teaching God's word, it's powerful. And I would encourage them to definitely teach by asking questions. You know, teach by asking questions because that's when you know, it's in the thinking and answering the questions that people really learn. Um, and I think the last thing is and when you, when you teach by asking questions, you don't have to be a brilliant teacher. You know, and you know I mean using this curriculum. I think that's why a lot of people use it too, is it? You know you don't have to be a brilliant teacher. You know, and you know I mean using this curriculum. I think that's why a lot of people use it too, is it? You know you don't have to be brilliant to use it. You know, you get it, and and yet you know you're, you're able to share things that youth or even adults that I never mentioned, but this this is used with a lot of adults in Africa anyway haven't gotten before.
Terry Andrews:And maybe the final thing is just, don't be afraid to go outside of your comfort zone and, you know, do things that may seem a little crazy, you know. I mean, teaching Muslims initially was crazy. Honestly, I used to be afraid of youth. I didn't have the best high school experience. Honestly, I used to be afraid of youth, I didn't have the best high school experience, but you know, I knew this is what. You know, what the doors that were opening. So, yeah, that was many things, but yeah, I think God's word is powerful. Let them teach you by you know asking questions and be ready to go outside of your comfort zone. That's where God really moves. It's scary, it's scary, but once you've taken that step out there, it's just so cool. That's great.
Luke Allen:Yeah, one thing I've noticed with teaching about biblical worldview is you don't need to overcomplicate it, because when people get it, when their eyes are open, when they, you know, put on these worldview glasses that were made to look through, it almost feels like you're going into your default mode.
Luke Allen:You know, we're all born into sin, you know, and we're sinners, and yet we were created to live in this life the way God created us to live. It's written on our hearts, right? So when you can point people back to that truth, to the light we're supposed to live in, it almost feels like, oh, this is somewhere deep down, this is the way it's supposed to be, and I get that, and I can catch onto this a lot quicker than any other different lies that are competing for my attention. This one, just somewhere deep down, makes sense. Does that make sense to you guys? That's what it felt like for me when I kind of had the aha moments like, oh, this one works, am I? Is that only me? I don't think so.
Terry Andrews:But no, no, and yeah, I mean, in fact, in the Muslim areas where we taught, you know, many times the kids would go to Quran school and then come to the clubs and they would say you know I hope this isn't offensive, you can cut it out if it is but the Quran school is teaching us this, but you're teaching us this and you're teaching the truth. You know, and we say you know, how do you know, how do you know? But they know, you know it's not like they're even trying to be nice to us. You know I'm not there, it's not a white face that, you know, is creating this, but there's just this strong, strong sense of the truth. And you know, even in teaching Adam and Eve and I may have said this already in one of the other interviews, but you know, when you get to the part where they've sinned, they're separated from God, they're blaming each other, they don't love themselves anymore and try to cover up. You know, and God says, no, you know, it's the shed blood of an animal. You know that's covering you, because this thing, you know, this thing, led to death.
Terry Andrews:I mean, this is in Muslim West Africa, where there's no exposure to Christianity. You know, many kids will come and say how do I get back to God? You know, how do I get back to God? You know, there's something resonating there, like I'm separated from God. You know, I know I've done, I know I've sinned. Everybody knows they've sinned, you know. So there's that resonating truth that you're talking about. It's so true, yeah.
Luke Allen:Yeah, yeah, it's like a magnetic pull and these things can be super deep as it's so easy for us to get into, and yet just the basic concept that ideas have consequences. Good ideas bring about light, bad ideas bring about darkness. We all get that, you know. And Jesus says you know, we should always bring unto me all the children, they'll understand it, and do not look down on anyone because they're young, but they can get these things. So, yeah, that's so important to just remember that calling them back to the Imago Dei who they're supposed to be is. They can get that and we all can, but not to overlook that, dwight, any final questions from you before we?
Dwight Vogt:wrap up it's been good, it's been good, it's been good, thank you. Thank you so much, terry, yeah.
Luke Allen:I'm just looking here at my notes, Terry. I didn't realize there was an app. Is that new? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Terry Andrews:There is, yeah, and it was created by one of our own youth. Oh right, on.
Terry Andrews:Yeah, oh, right on, we went kind of backwards because most of the world, most of the developing world, is on Android and it was developed on Android but it's not easily available unless it's emailed to you or WhatsApp to you. We have an Apple version and that was sort of. The founder of root to fruit really wanted Americans to be able to access it, and so if you go to the Apple store, it's called God With Us, global and, yeah, if you just type that in, you'll find the app and it will be on the Play Store within the month. There's some Root to Fruit people working on it with this youth and I'll let you know when that is, but right now, if you find anybody that wants the app, I can. Everybody besides the United States, I think, is very familiar with WhatsApp. You know that way of communicating and so I can easily WhatsApp it to anybody that needs it that has an Android.
Luke Allen:Yeah, Okay, yeah, and we'll make sure this is really easy for everyone to find.
Luke Allen:This episode probably won't come out for a month, so hopefully we can also include the android link on the episode page by the way, guys okay, yeah, the episode page for every one of these episodes is where you can find all things ideas have consequences and, specifically, you can take a deep dive into each episode, learn more about our guests, learn more about all the resources that we talked about. So if you'd like to learn more about the God With Us curriculum, if you'd like to listen to the last episode that we had with Terry and her husband, tim Andrews, I'll have all of that on this episode's landing page, which is linked in the description below, so make sure to go and give that a visit. Again, it's the God With Us curriculum, available online or on an app you can choose. Terry, it's been so much fun listening to you today and just learning a little bit more about this curriculum.
Luke Allen:I've got some young kids in the house and starting to think about you know discipleship curriculum, so this is helpful and I'll keep this in my back pocket.
Terry Andrews:That's great.
Luke Allen:Yeah, dwight and Sean, thank you for your time today. And for everyone listening. This is the Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance today, with the partnership of Root to Fruit. So thank you all for listening and we'll catch you next week. You.
