Ideas Have Consequences

Is the Church Responsible for This Cultural & Political Moment? With Teo Hayashi

• Disciple Nations Alliance • Season 2 • Episode 43

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In a previous episode, Pastor Teo Hayashi from São Paulo, Brazil, joined us to discuss steps to disciple nations through a Spirit-led re-formation of all areas of life and society. Today, he's back with a timely message: when the Church neglects its responsibility to shape society, politicians often fill the void. This is the reality Brazil and many Western nations face today. For years, churches have stepped back from guiding the nation’s moral compass when it comes to discussions on freedom, justice, family, education, and the sacredness of the imago Dei. Now, we’re realizing the need to "catch up."

Pastor Hayashi challenges pastors and believers alike to rethink godly citizenship in a secular world. Tune in for vital insights on the Church's role in influencing society and politics.

Teofilo Hayashi:

If you take even American politics, before the Trump era began, it was something that you could take for granted and not have an opinion and just say, hey, you know what? We're not going to talk about politics, and we could actually live a dualist worldview, where we're saying you know what that's outside the four walls of the church? While you're here, we're going to teach the Bible which right now.

Teofilo Hayashi:

you can't get away with that. People actually are asking what should we do? What's your opinion? And so I would say this is actually forcing the church to catch up, and because we haven't used our pulpits to actually disciple nations and bring biblical worldview to what does it mean to be salt of the earth and light of the world in society now we're being held hostage.

Luke Allen:

Hi friends, welcome to Ideas have Consequences. The podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. Here on this show we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world to all the nations, but our mission also includes to be the hands and feet of God, to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected this second part of her mission and today most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.

Scott Allen:

Well, welcome again everybody to another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. My name is Scott Allen, I'm the president of the DNA and I'm joined today by friends and co-workers Dwight Vogt, luke Allen and Dara Miller, and we're so pleased to have back with us again today a special guest. Pastor Teo Hayashi is joining us from Sao Paulo, brazil, and Pastor Teo, thanks again for taking some time out of your schedule to be with us. We're super grateful.

Teofilo Hayashi:

Hey, thank you, scott. Such a privilege, such an honor. Thank you, daryl, daryl Miller and Dwight and Luke. It's awesome to be back on the show and on the podcast not the show, but or you could call it a show you can call it a show, that's okay. But I mean, I'm super excited for the conversation.

Scott Allen:

Same here. Yeah, Let me just introduce you if you don't mind. Is it Teofilo? Is that the correct pronunciation?

Teofilo Hayashi:

Well, the original is Theophilus. In Greek as in Acts 1-1 and Luke 1-3. In Portuguese we say Teofilo, and then when I went to the American school growing up in Brazil, they called me Teófilo. So I guess you could go either, teófilo, theophilus, if you want to go old school.

Scott Allen:

Teófilo. Wow that is really neat. I might just call you Pastor Teo too.

Darrow Miller:

Yeah, that's easier.

Scott Allen:

Well, let me introduce you. Teófilo Hayashi is the founder of the Dunamis Movement, which is a revival-focused campus ministry that has chapters in over 400 universities and nations. That's incredible. Dunamis also holds conferences around the world through multiple training schools, equipping students to become marketplace leaders that carry a kingdom influence in society we might even say discipling nations there. I think so. Pastor Teo has traveled over 40 nations preaching the gospel, seeing the miraculous power of God touch people from all walks of life. He is married, His wife's name is Hunia, and he is also on the senior leadership team of Zion Church, which is a thriving multi-site megachurch in Sao Paulo, Brazil. Pastor Teo holds degrees in psychology and theology, he's authored several books and has worked very closely with Youth With a Mission, and I believe he's a graduate of Liberty University. Is that correct?

Teofilo Hayashi:

That's right. Go Flames, yep L-U Good.

Scott Allen:

Liberty University in Virginia. So you cross a lot of—we talked about this last time we had you on you cross a lot of kind of ethnic lines from Japan to Brazil, to the United States, and so that's really neat. Yeah, anything I missed there on that introduction that you'd like to kind of share. I'm sure there's so much more that I could say, but I just wanted to no.

Teofilo Hayashi:

I mean, that's the gist of it and I'm just you know. I want to say, like I said last time, I'm so blessed by y'all's podcast. It just gives me a lot of language for a lot of things that I've been feeling, and when I was a student and then began ministry in america, I felt a lot of things that the lord laid on my heart, and I really found language when I started reading um daryl's book discipling nations, and then found out about you guys's uh podcast and started continued to find more and more language, and so I appreciate the work you guys do a lot.

Scott Allen:

Well, that's just such an encouragement to us, really, thank you. Thanks for sharing that, pastor Teo. That means a lot. Well, today we wanted to invite you on back on to just talk about what's happening in the world at this time. In Brazil and you know, I feel like I was just in Medellin about two weeks ago and in my brief travels in South America, you know, whether it's talking to people from Venezuela, brazil, the United States, I feel like there's a lot of commonality, you know, in terms of what's happening in our nations, politically, socially. You know, and we just wanted to get your sense, because you're so involved as a church, so engaged in what's happening in your nation. But we just wanted to get your sense of what are you seeing right now, pastor Teo, in Brazil, but also in the nations, the Western nations or the nations of the world. Where are we at? I know that's a huge, open-ended question, but I'd love to just get your sense of it.

Teofilo Hayashi:

Yeah, well, it's actually. I think it's one of the questions a lot of pastors in the West are asking, and I know for sure a lot of pastors in Brazil and other Latin American nations are also asking. I believe you know, if I would look back to the last three months of our journey here in Brazil as a faith community, I would have never thought that I would be living what we are living today.

Luke Allen:

And.

Teofilo Hayashi:

I know some people might say it's an exaggeration, but I do see that there is a persecution when it comes to the freedom of speech and the freedom of expression. And I don't know if you picked this up on the news or not, but when Elon Musk purchased X formerly Twitter of course, if you think about it in a business perspective, it did not make much sense for him to do that. He's quoted on interviews that he actually did that for free speech, and it was precisely X and Twitter that was, by the Supreme Court of Brazil, judged and canceled from Brazil. So, as I speak to you, I've had a Twitter account since, I would would say, 2009, 2009. And now I find myself with no Twitter account. And you know, it's one of those things that we're forced to talk about.

Teofilo Hayashi:

What does it mean to have freedom of speech? There has been a lot of conversations, and there always have been a lot of conversations, especially in the mainstream press, mainstream media, about fighting for democracy and working for democracy. But I would say the entrance point to a democracy is the freedom of speech, and that is being attacked in the name of democracy. It's so subtle, but they're saying platforms where hate speech or fake news could be diffused. We're going to take that out. And that's so hypocritical, because now you are cutting the freedom of speech in the name of democracy that depends on freedom of speech, and so that's where we're at right now, and so I would say that we would have never thought that we were so close to that point.

Teofilo Hayashi:

And, of course, we have a very vivid example of Venezuela right next door, and you know, I grew up, born and grew up in the 80s. In the 80s, venezuela was probably the wealthiest, most prosperous country in Latin America. And to see the situation right now, where we've actually, as a ministry, as a church, have hosted, you know, quite a few Venezuelan refugees coming in and crossing into our borders looking for food, looking for work, looking for protection, and so to think that we are, of course, if we look at the situation that is, you know, the reality today. No, we see that Brazil, you know, we're not in the same impoverished state as nations that are going through these freedoms being taken from them, but at the same time, we recognize the pattern. So I think that, as a church, I think that a lot of pastors, a lot of clergy, were in a position that, a few years ago. They could afford not to have an opinion.

Teofilo Hayashi:

They could afford not to say something about it. But now it's a situation where, when you're having your own social medias and you could, like many pastors do, use social media to put out sermons, put out words of encouragement Now you don't have a Twitter or an ex. And so these are, I would say, reality checks, that I'm thinking pastors across the nation of Brazil. I think that when I look at what American leaders or voices, how they see the Elon Musk versus the Brazilian Supreme Court feud happen, they're saying, hey, listen, they're testing the waters with Brazil. Let us not fall into the trap to think that this could not happen over here. And so I do see as, at the same time, challenging, but at the same time, I see it's an opportunity for the Church of God to rise up the.

Teofilo Hayashi:

Bride of Christ to take its role, for us to start really taking upon ourselves the need to teach the next generation biblical worldview. How do we look at society? What does the Bible say about freedom of speech or our freedoms in general, freedom of religion and so forth? So I mean sorry, I just went you know went right off the bat. But I think that's kind of where we're at right now, very different from the last time we had a conversation. I believe it was maybe a year ago.

Darrow Miller:

Yeah, I'd like to come back to that thread you're on, but before I do, we're talking about freedom and, as Christ said to those believers who were following him, if you continue in my word, you will be my disciples indeed. So he makes a distinction between believers and disciples.

Darrow Miller:

And then he said, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. So the freedom we're talking about, whether it's freedom of association or freedom of speech, these freedoms exist where truth exists, and we live in a post-truth world and that is going to lead to the loss of freedom and the stifling, whether it's of a pastor of a small church or trying to stifle someone like Musk. That's going to be what happens because we are in a post-truth world. So for me, that's pretty clear, and the roots of this go deeper Now.

Darrow Miller:

What I heard you say a minute ago, pastor Tao, is that pastors have taken for granted their ability to speak without really recognizing where that has come from, necessarily, but now, with what's happened with Musk, that's cutting off something that they took for granted. So you're saying the church is being stirred up. Now how do you see that stirring up? We know what's causing it, but where is it going to go? What's the stirring going to lead to?

Teofilo Hayashi:

Yeah, I think you know Brazil. Now I'll speak for Brazil, although I do see similar patterns, and for me it's kind of scary. I see a lot of patterns when it comes to US politics the last eight years and Brazil's politics the last eight years.

Darrow Miller:

It's kind of—I'm thinking this is— and this is happening in Europe as well.

Teofilo Hayashi:

Exactly.

Scott Allen:

Yeah, if I could just comment and agree with you on that, pastor Teo, I see we almost seem to be going in really close parallel. You know, when you look at elections, when you look at our freedoms the freedom of speech, even the persecution of Elon Musk our government is really doing the same thing. Now they're trying to. You know they would love to have Twitter banned.

Scott Allen:

You know, one of the two parties anyways is strong and open about wanting to end freedom of speech or at least you know, institute or institutionalize censorship, which is kind of still very shocking to me. You know, it's so new and it's shocking, although I certainly agree with Darrow in the sense that you know we haven't been actively discipling our nations, we've taken it for granted. Other people that you know aren't followers of Jesus, don't fear God have been discipling nations and of course, these are the results. You know this is what you're going to have. But yeah, go ahead and just talk a little bit more. I cut you off there, there?

Teofilo Hayashi:

No, not at all. I think that when we look at what's happening to Brazil right now I would say one of the it's very evident that the events in the political world, and I would say even in the elections, are shaping the church more than the church is shaping the political scene. And so we would say that, biblically, we are the ones to be shaping how we do policy, how we go about and elect our leaders, and I've been saying that we're actually playing catch-up.

Teofilo Hayashi:

And because we haven't used our pulpits to actually disciple nations and bring biblical worldview to. What does it mean to to be salt of the earth and light of the world?

Luke Allen:

in society.

Teofilo Hayashi:

Now we're being held hostage to personalities in elections, we're having to comment on caricatures, we're having to comment on extremisms and on crises, and so I honestly think it's kind of a hard job today, nowadays, to be a pastor of a community of faith, because you're being thrown things to comment and take a stance constantly, whereas if you take even American politics before the Trump era began, it was something that you could take for granted and not have an opinion and and just say, hey, you know, we're not going to talk about politics and we could actually live a dualist worldview where we're saying you know what that's outside the four walls of the church, while you're here, we're going to teach the Bible, which right now you can't get away with. That People actually are asking what should we do? What's your opinion? And so I would say this is actually forcing the church to catch up, and I was talking to another pastor here in Brazil the other day and I was saying I don't think we're actually realizing how much the church is being forced to evolve at each election. So right now we're going through a municipal election, so we're voting for our mayors and for city hall members, but we've actually had this is a very fresh phenomena in Brazil which I believe will start making mainline news worldwide very soon.

Teofilo Hayashi:

We've actually had a conservative, trump-like, bolsonaro-year-old, very, very aggressive candidate in America now saying no, I'm the right wing and I'm going against Trump, which has forced us then, as pastors, to ask the question that I believe that eventually, most pastors that are going for conservatism will have to ask which is what's conservatism and what's biblical? Because people are picking up on the fact that if you preach right conservative values, you actually get some traction, but if you don't have a track history of living biblically, they will capitalize and maximize on the way that the world is going, which is now beginning to take on the first roots of wokeism, and so, as we know, wokeism brings destruction. People are starting to realize this is not the right way to go, and there are certain political figures jumping the gun saying no, I am the conservative voice, I am the new Trump or the new Bolsonaro. And now you're having to ask the question do I just vote conservative? Should a Christian just vote Republican? Should a Christian just vote right or should a Christian vote biblical?

Teofilo Hayashi:

Because I fear that we're going to see this more time and again of right conservative people raising up their voice, but they're not necessarily biblical, and that has become a shortcut to a church that has not lived biblically and we're thinking we'll just vote our biblical values. But it's not going to work. This time we're going to have to really ask the hard questions what's biblical, what's conservative? And so I think that's where we're at right now in Brazil, and I see a new conservative movement rise up, which I wouldn't necessarily say is positive. All I'm trying to say is, as church leaders guys, let's not reinvent the wheel, let's just go back to the book, let's go back to teaching the Bible, and I think that's the clearest and the safest way to go.

Luke Allen:

Hi friends, I want to tell you real quick about the Kingdomizer training program, which is the DNA's most popular biblical worldview online training course. It's available in seven languages. It's completely for free and it's not one of those courses that will take you months to complete. Most people actually finish the entire Kingdomizer 101 course in about seven hours. These courses were created to help Christians live out their mandate to make disciples of all nations, starting with themselves and working out from there. I would recommend this course to any Christian who wants to stop living in a sacred-secular divide that limits their faith to only some areas of their life. To sign up today, head to quorumdeocom and begin to have an impact for Christ on your culture that, if it's anything like mine, is in desperate need for truth and direction right now. So, again, to sign up, head to quorumdeocom, or you can learn more on this episode's page, which you'll see linked in the show notes.

Scott Allen:

So just on that, just to follow up the new young leader that you're speaking of, do you feel like he's grounded scripturally? Is he a Christian, or is he just kind of at a more kind of political level, I would say?

Teofilo Hayashi:

you know, I would say he is, they're very this, so he, his name is Pablo, and so Pablo Marçal, that's his name. If you Google him, you'll see he's had a few interactions with Trump over the last three weeks, and he's also had interactions with Bukele, the president in El Salvador, which is pretty much cleaning up the nation, and so I would say Pablo represents a phenomena that we'll start to see more often, which is a digital figure coming into politics. He was Brazil's largest digital marketer. You could call him a digital influencer.

Teofilo Hayashi:

And so these are people that have found out saying I don't need the media to run a campaign, I have social media and he has a huge social media following. He's actually he has more of a social media following than the actual president of Brazil, who's the leftist, Lula. And so when you start doing the math in terms of the world that we're heading into, where you know social media has a lot of weight and you could actually, as we've seen in other spheres, you could do business digitally and make a lot more money, or a lot of money, without having to go walk down to Wall Street. You could do education digitally and get degrees without having to actually live on campus and go to a university. Now we're finding out you could do politics digitally and not having to be at the hands of mainstream media.

Teofilo Hayashi:

So I would say, Pablo right now is the first example of a digital influencer coming into politics, knowing exactly how to master narratives. So if you ask me, do you feel he is a real believer, a born-again believer? I would say that he calls himself an evangelical believer, but he also has in the past said that he is not an evangelical believer. So in my mind I'm saying I think it's too soon to judge, to make a decision, but then again I see a trend that is in the future, people will understand narratives and they'll understand what do they need to say to attract the vote, and they'll have the intelligence, through social media, to understand exactly what the algorithm is saying. And so I believe that we are poised to see in the future more and more the campaigns of elections moving into the social media world and in the Internet, as we've seen a little bit more of that in the past once.

Scott Allen:

So what. I'm hearing is oh, go ahead, daryl. Yeah.

Darrow Miller:

This will mean manipulation on the grand scale.

Teofilo Hayashi:

Exactly.

Darrow Miller:

At the DNA. We talk about four Ps Practice, policy, principle and paradigm and what you're describing, that's going on, is on the practice and policy level. Yes, but the principle and paradigm is not part of the equation, and this is where the problem comes in the deeper worldview. You have the deeper worldview, the principles that come from a biblical worldview. That's where policies and practice need to be born. But in a world devoid of truth, you don't consider principles, you don't consider paradigm.

Scott Allen:

Wow.

Darrow Miller:

You just work on policies and manipulation.

Teofilo Hayashi:

Yeah.

Darrow Miller:

And this in my mind what's the church going to do? Is she going to try to out-manipulate the manipulators? Or, as you said a few minutes ago, is she going to focus on the Word of God and restore or establish in Brazil a biblical worldview and the principles that flow from that, to then speak into policy and practice? So that's a place, I think, where the church. So that's a place, I think, where the church folks that you're dealing with, Pastor Tao, if they get this, it'll take them right back to the Word of God. Thy Word is truth, a narrative, that's just a once upon a time kind of a thing, but you're bringing to bear the narrative of Scripture, the narrative that God has given us, the narrative of the coming of the kingdom of God, and you're anchoring policy and practice into that narrative.

Teofilo Hayashi:

That's so powerful. Yes, that's what I was saying in the beginning of the podcast the language you just brought us language and we need more of that. But I could see I would say that, unfortunately, a lot of pastors are being taken by the narrative, and they're being taken. You are saying what I want to hear and, like you said immediately I mean you picked it out you said it's manipulation in the grand scale, and so we do have this potential of being manipulated right now, because people understand if you say the right things, people will side with you. And right now, after years and years of wokeism, we're starting to see this doesn't work, and so they understand the tide is turning the conservative way now. Conservative, a way down.

Scott Allen:

And so I think you know we were talking about free speech and this is where, at a policy level, we could say, yeah, we support free speech. But to go to the worldview level, the deeper level, the principles and the paradigms that Dara was speaking about, we have to see, we have to make the connection and see how it is that the Bible underpins freedom and freedom of speech, and I sometimes think we're not in—we being the Church—we're not in very good practice at doing that.

Darrow Miller:

We're not.

Scott Allen:

What are your thoughts just on that, pastor Teo? What case would you make to pastors that may be listening to us on why we should support policies of free speech as opposed to censorship or something like that or any kind of freedom you might say? Our freedoms in the West, in Brazil and the United States and other Western nations, are born out of a biblical worldview applied politically at the level of nations and things like that. And as we become post-Christian, we are naturally losing freedoms, we're becoming more tyrannical, we're becoming, you know, censorship is on the rise, etc. Etc.

Teofilo Hayashi:

But help us with the case for why the Bible, a biblical paradigm or worldview would lead to principles that would create a basis for freedom of speech, freedom of religion, just human freedom. I would say, you know, when we look at the way the Lord has created us to be, with the power of choosing between what's right and wrong, I'm just as you're saying.

Teofilo Hayashi:

I'm just reminded of that verse and if believe, if I'm not mistaken, in revelations 3, this is I stand at the door and I knock uh there's always that knocking um, that we have the the option of saying I'm going to open the door, I'm not going to open the door and, uh, we see across the biblical narrative the the, the freedom that has been given to man, however, with responsibility.

Teofilo Hayashi:

And so you will sow, but you will reap whatever you sow. If you sow in the Spirit, you'll reap eternal life. If you sow in the flesh, you'll reap death. And so I'd say you know, there's the way that the Lord has created man. He's always honored our choices.

Teofilo Hayashi:

The moment that we take the possibility of choosing and our responsibility based on the choice we've made, I think we're reducing the human being to an animal, and we're reducing, and now we're attacking imago Dei. We're attacking and we're allowing, you know, this deterioration of I am made in the image and in the likeness of God, and once I do that, I start living wildly, and so you'll start seeing sin rampant and, just like dogs will do whatever they feel like doing. Suddenly you have society acting like animals, and that is anarchy. And so I say, even when we're talking about protecting our freedoms, that's actually, at the end of the day, you're keeping things in order, not in a controlled manner, I would say that order, the excuse to say I'm going to keep everything under control and I'm going to keep things in order is very subtle, because I believe that order comes with freedom and responsibility.

Teofilo Hayashi:

I see that in the word. Once I am forcing people to be in order. It looks like it's order, but in its actual nature it isn't. It's taken me to a place where I am not giving them any more possibilities of choosing. Therefore, they will act like a being without a spirit or a conscience. Does that make sense?

Scott Allen:

Absolutely. I think you're doing just a really marvelous job here at really getting into the deep biblical truths about you know who we are, how we're made and what a biblical understanding of freedom looks like. It's not licensed to do whatever you want. God gives us freedom, you know. He doesn't make us robots or puppets. He gives us, he makes us as free human beings, and we see that right away in Genesis, chapter 1 and 2. In the garden you are free to eat from any of these trees. But then he creates boundaries and limits, and it's only when we function within those limits that we can have what our founding fathers in this country called ordered liberty right, which is that's right, yeah. Liberty right, that's right, yeah. And so that's the biblical vision and that's why you know that's that deeper worldview level that leads to policies that support you know particular programs. You know freedom of speech. So it's not enough just to say, hey, we support free speech. We have to know why we support it.

Scott Allen:

Exactly we have to see how that's rooted in the Bible, and I'm so thankful to have pastors like you, pastor Tao, that understand that. I think we need to train other pastors to kind of to think worldviewishly at this point, because if we don't, if we're not really grounded in the Word, like you're saying, we're going to be open to being manipulated. And boy, we're heading into a time where, you know, I think about AI and just the power of that to so quickly learn, right, what exactly needs to be said to sway the most people, or whatever it is you know Exactly.

Teofilo Hayashi:

So, yeah, Well, I think also, scott, we're living or we're reaping years and years of doing ministry, and I'm talking about people for ministry. Now it's like I've heard somebody say when do we change? We change when we want to or when we have to, and we're coming to a point where we're going to have to change the way that we teach the word, the way we do ministry, not because we want to. Maybe you know that bus has gone, that ship has sailed. Maybe now it's because we have to, because we have a.

Teofilo Hayashi:

Gen Z church member asking us who are you going to vote for and why are you going to vote for that? And you have kids that are coming out of your youth group and going to university and the parents don't have the answers to what. They're coming back home during break and asking these questions. And so right now I feel that, as each election goes by, like I was saying, I feel that it's kind of like a shove in the back of the church saying you have to catch up, run catch up.

Teofilo Hayashi:

And so I see although it sounds very, you know, bad news, but I actually do have hope, I actually see it that even in Brazil or America, we're very poised for a revival, or America, we're very poised for a revival. It's in these times where things, you know, things are like storms are starting to brew up, that we see a move of God, when we're saying we're going back to the basics, in this case, let's go back to biblical teaching, let's go back to doing what the Word is showing us. So anyway. So I see, yes for sure. When do we change? When we want to, when we have to. And I look at the next 10 years. I see a lot of big ministries in the West changing their metrics of success for ministry. Whereas before we would have attendance and giving and the amazing, you know, productions on the weekends, now we're seeing this is not enough. We really need to make disciples that will disciple nations.

Scott Allen:

Wow. So you are seeing that You're seeing a questioning of what our measurement is for success in the churches there in Brazil.

Teofilo Hayashi:

I see it's inevitable. That's number one, and I'm starting to see a remnant starting to ask the question.

Luke Allen:

And the more that.

Teofilo Hayashi:

I read into the macro trends of politics or society in general. I'm like there's no way out. You're going to have to face the storm, and so with that, I have hope.

Scott Allen:

That's really interesting. You're going to have to face the storm and so, with that, I have hope. Hmm, hmm, that's really interesting. I see something similar too, pastor Teo.

Scott Allen:

You see—we've talked about this several times on the podcast— but you see a lot of Western intellectuals, for example, the historian, the British historian, tom Holland, who wasn't a Christian but he was— he recognized how deeply he was shaped and his values were shaped by the Bible, essentially because he loved things like the concept of human dignity and the concept of free speech.

Scott Allen:

He took those things for granted, they had always been around, always been around, you know. But because of the crisis that the West is facing, for the first time we're kind of waking up to the idea that—the reality that, wow, these things can go away, and they can go away kind of quickly and we can end up in a really dark totalitarian place. And so it caused him, it forced him, and many others, you know, to say where do these things that I value come from? And the answer was the Bible. You know that these are the fruits of Christians who, over many hundreds of years in the West, have discipled their nations in the sense that they've taught faithfully the scriptures and they have embedded and nurtured these ideas at the level of culture and it's shaped the kind of societies that they've grown up in. But again, yeah, I think the Church has gotten out of practice in doing that and now, like you say, it seems like we are being kind of forced back into that, which could be a very good thing.

Darrow Miller:

Yeah, I have a question that's related to where we are right now. How do you prepare a congregation, you as a pastor or the church as a church? How do you prepare a congregation for godly citizenship?

Teofilo Hayashi:

Wow, that's a big question, I don't know. Well, I'll say this what we've seen in our community is I am a firm believer. I heard a theologian once say that Scott McKnight. He said our pulpits will form or will forge our communities. And so as I look upon the community, I'm looking at the pulpit. The pulpit is responsible to really shape the way that my congregants are thinking. The pulpit has to shape the way that they live Monday through Friday in the marketplace, or how they raise their kids, or how they go about doing marriage and family. And so I would say that right now, it begins with us teaching the Word.

Teofilo Hayashi:

Lauren Cunningham would always tell me you only lead a movement by education and it has to come through teaching. I can't force it because if I do, I am actually going against what I just spoke about. I can't come up with. I have to understand that when we're looking at a godly citizen community or church, or a church that is living godly citizenship on earth, another way that I would say it and this is kind of more of our background we would say we want an apostolic church, a church that would live like the church in the first century, where the apostles were leading that church and they were bringing the culture of heaven on earth in every sphere of society. And so, as I think, how do I raise up an apostolic church, I've come to think about that.

Teofilo Hayashi:

It has not much to do, or not, that I'm against big numbers, but I don't think it has to do with big numbers only. It has a lot more to do with big numbers only. It has a lot more to do with big people. And if I can raise up big people within my congregation and of course it's the Holy Spirit, but I make myself, put myself at His disposal as a channel in teaching. This is what the, this is what we're called to do to serve, to lead, to be kingdom ambassadors and have questions to somebody that's working in the financial sector of the city. What does the Bible say about finances or people that have been working with maybe entertainment or cinema or theater? I think we don't have these answers enough from our pulpits in the Western church, and so creatives really don't see how do I live this faith in maybe the theater company that I'm part of, or in my art gallery or whatnot? And so the more we reduce the gospel to just salvation message, the more dualistic the congregation becomes.

Teofilo Hayashi:

That's right, the more dualistic they become, the more impotent they become in society, and then we're easily manipulated. And so I would say it would be from teaching to answer your question, daryl. But at the same time I understand people don't come to church for a seminary class and it has to be something led by the Holy Spirit. That's the only. It's that tension of we bring you biblical teaching. But if it's that dry, you know, head heavy.

Teofilo Hayashi:

I don't see that touching the next gen, or even you know, many people from my generation. I'm a millennial. I say we're looking for an experience, but also it's not just a soulish experience, it's something that touches my spirit, it will challenge my mind, and the best way that I can describe it is it's about the spirit, but it's also about the truth. It's about the power, but it's also about the word. And to build that intention is, I don't think it's an easy task, and at times we're. We're looking for the formulas to fill the pews, and so we end up getting the formulas done, but at the end of the day, the question is are we really being salt and light of the earth Monday through Friday? And I don't think we do that with those quick formulas.

Darrow Miller:

This is a question that Bob often asks when we do conferences together. If your church would disappear from the street, would anybody notice?

Teofilo Hayashi:

Yeah, it's a powerful question.

Darrow Miller:

Yeah no, it is, and he asked pastors that when we work with pastors. But his point is what you're talking about is the metrics. How do we build the building? How do we fill the pews? That's what we're measured by. And Bob would say no, you're not measured by how many people. You're measured by the impact the church is having in the community. So you can have a big building and a lot of people and no impact in changing the community. That's what we need to focus on. And a few minutes ago, when you said we need to relate the scriptures to this vocation and to that vocation, and this vocation, the people in your pews.

Darrow Miller:

They have jobs. They have work. They go to every day except Saturday and Sunday. And many of them are asking the question how do I connect my work to the coming of the kingdom of God? That is a place where a pastor can function in a dynamic way is to make that connection for people. Yeah, that's powerful. Yeah, that's the space?

Teofilo Hayashi:

Yeah, and if we leave that space with the vacuum, we know what happens.

Darrow Miller:

We know what happens. We've got it right now, exactly. And you have Christians who are frustrated because they're seeing what's happening in their communities, in their nations, and they're going to church on Sunday and don't see the relationship between what's going on on Sunday and what needs to be happening in the nation. And that's the place where the pastor, if he can conceive of the church this way, can have an incredible impact on the congregation to become the citizens that the community needs for transformation.

Teofilo Hayashi:

Yes, and I just can't help but think of when the Lord Jesus is teaching about you being the salt of the earth and light of the world. And what good is salt if it loses its taste? Only good to be thrown away and trampled by men. And what I've been seeing is the church enough of being trampled by men, but not asking why have we been trampled by men? We've been trampled by men because we've lost our taste, and as soon as we recover taste, there's no way that we will be trampled by man because we're bringing the solutions to the crisis that society is offering, and so I totally agree with even this question that you've quoted, bob Moffitt, make.

Teofilo Hayashi:

It's a very convicting question and I know that ourselves as a church the church that I lead and that I'm part of we need there's so much room to grow in that. But we're very conscious of that and, yeah, I believe that we're coming to a point where, because of the trends and how rapid it's going, many pastors will start having to face that question, and so that's a very powerful and relevant question to be made right now.

Darrow Miller:

I'm remembering something Vishal Mangalawati has said. Do you know, vishal?

Scott Allen:

Yes, actually Vishal will be with us in a month's time.

Darrow Miller:

Oh, great, okay, yeah, I love Vishal. You'll be blown away.

Teofilo Hayashi:

Yes, yes, he's amazing.

Darrow Miller:

He's amazing. Greet him for us.

Teofilo Hayashi:

We're good friends of his yes, I will.

Darrow Miller:

He one time this was a number of years ago said that the image in a church in the old days was of a pulpit, and the pulpit was where truth was proclaimed to the congregation. The image in the church today is of a stage.

Teofilo Hayashi:

Wow, where the stage is there for entertainment. Entertainment.

Darrow Miller:

Wow, so you have congregations who yeah, it's very strong who have been formed by entertainment, and the church wants to entertain, to be competitive with what's going on in the world, so she turns the front of the church into a stage Wow, and in doing so, have lost the pulpit and the proclamation of truth, the pulpit and the proclamation of truth. And so when you said a few minutes ago we need to understand the pulpit yeah, we need to understand the pulpit and why is it missing from?

Teofilo Hayashi:

our churches. And why has it been replaced by a stage? Wow, that's very strong, just this imagery of pulpit versus stage. If I'm not mistaken, I believe it was Charles Finney that was quoted to say that if we see corruption in the halls of our government, let's blame our pulpits. And so it comes down to that, especially once we start seeing the parallels of a New Testament church pulpit with what Moses was in the beginning of the formation of the nation of Israel, the formation of the nation of Israel. His words were forming, as a religious leader, or as a spiritual leader, I would say, forming how they would see law and sanitary laws, and yes.

Teofilo Hayashi:

Everything.

Luke Allen:

The spheres.

Scott Allen:

Yes, everything. Pastor Teo, I know that when I talk about the message that we have as Christians to understand ourselves, to live out and to share with the world is a bigger message than just spiritual salvation and the gospel understood in that way, many still become very upset or defensive and they say, you know, they're concerned and they're worried that if we, you know, if we add too much to the proclamation of the gospel, we'll lose the gospel. And I appreciate that because we do come out of a history in the United States and in the West to certain degree, where that happened, you know, where you know, a hundred years ago you had the social gospel movement that essentially abandoned the preaching of the gospel and doctrines like you know, the human depravity and the need for salvation, and they became very involved in politics and kind of almost felt like if we can just get the right kind of political party and the right policies into place, we'll have the kingdom of God on earth.

Scott Allen:

And I think so much of what we see today in the evangelical church is still kind of residual reaction against that by saying, hey, no, we have to just preach the gospel. Preach the gospel, and anything beyond that is going to lead us potentially into a bad place. How do you—I'm sure you've run across that how do you respond to that?

Teofilo Hayashi:

Well, you know, it's one of those things that I see this crisis as something very close to my heart, because I tell my American friends you can afford only to speak on the gospel of salvation because you're not dodging bullets like I am down here. And so I say when you're faced, and then again some of them say, no, I'm from LA, I'm from New York, I know what you're saying, but when you're faced with social ailments in such a blatant, aggressive manner, you have to question and start asking, asking is it just enough for me to have a sermon that will end up with a salvation altar call which I'm 100% for or do I do that and do more? And we're in a place where I would say you have to do that, but you also have to do more. And to have the results that we see in the Gospels that Jesus had, we need to preach what Jesus preached.

Teofilo Hayashi:

And so for many of them it's kind of shocking when I tell them Jesus never preached. Come to me and be born again. He does have that dialogue with Nicodemus in John, chapter 3. It's in a private setting, but when you're looking at his public proclamation he's talking about kingdom. And so it's not that I am against the gospel of salvation. What I'm against is seeing the gospel of salvation as the finish line, as the finish line.

Teofilo Hayashi:

I need to see the gospel of salvation as the entryway into the kingdom. And so, as I bring in the gospel of the kingdom, which is the fullness of the gospel, I believe we're talking about salvation, we're talking about justice, we're talking about truth, we're talking about beauty, we're talking about how do we live in society, how do I reflect for the glory of God? Good works before men. And I believe that when we only reduce the gospel to Calvary, the cross, the blood, I think we're doing a disservice. I think it's more than that. I think that Jesus himself would agree that it's more than just the Calvary. And so I would say you know, when you mentioned the social gospel, I think that was maybe you know, an extreme. And so I see, I see that we need to be in in balance, and and um, the best, or at least the language that I use, is revival and reformation.

Teofilo Hayashi:

And so I don't want just revival, I want reformation but also if I just do reformation truths exactly If I just do reformation exactly, if I just do reformation without the Holy Spirit awakening our souls, it's very based on, you know, this earth, no eternal value, and it just becomes something that the UN could go ahead and do better than us, and that's not what the church is called to do, and so it has to be the balance. But I believe that the gospel of the kingdom is the wineskin for the salvation message and for the transformation message of discipling nations, and so no to either extremes, I would say, if that makes sense.

Scott Allen:

Yeah, totally. I think that's a really great response and I think you know what I like about it is that it recognizes that there is a legitimate concern there because of our history. You know we don't want to—we cannot lose the gospel, the gospel of salvation People need to be saved, they need to be born again.

Teofilo Hayashi:

Yes, for sure.

Scott Allen:

But the good news that we have to share is much more than that. You know, yeah, I just recently saw this. It's a viral clip you probably have all seen it of Bill Maher. You know the celebrity, and he was talking on his show I think this was a couple years ago, I don't know, it wasn't too long ago and he was talking about abortion in the United States and he was saying you know the pro-life people in the United States, they are kind of characterized as not, you know, of hating women, you know, and not upholding the rights of women. And he goes that's not really true. He says they believe that abortion is murder and they're against murder, you know. And so you know, let's kind of be honest about that. And then he went on and he said and abortion is murder, he agreed with that, he agreed with that. But then he said but I'm still in favor of abortion because, you know, we have too many people in the world and we need to reduce the population.

Scott Allen:

Anyways, it was something that I thought there was such an honesty to it. He's reflecting his belief that we are just accidents, we don't have eternal value, we don't have dignity, there's no sacredness to human life, that's all gone and so he's functioning and he's honest about it. Out of this worldview that says, if you have power and you know this other life is inconvenient to you, you by all means can kill that other person. That's fine. The people that were listening to him were kind of shocked by it, but they didn't have anything to respond to it. You know they couldn't respond well to it, but I thought, you know I was thinking about our. You know the reason that we have an ethic in the West that kind of makes us cringe at that and go no, you know, if you have the power, you don't have the right to murder somebody.

Scott Allen:

Human life is sacred. It's because that comes from the Bible and was sown. That seed was sown through the church, through Christians, over hundreds of years into the West. If we don't do it, this is, you know, this is where it goes, this is the idea. I mean this pagan idea. Right is where you end up and you know so.

Scott Allen:

To people that I, you know, to Christians that say, you know, we just need to preach the gospel, I'm like well, no, we need to talk about the dignity of the human being, the fact that God created us to be free. All of these things come from the Bible that are really important, you know. They're all really important messages that if we don't, you know you're going to have a culture of death, you know. So I mean, that's just where it's going to go. So I do think, yeah, back to your comment that we're being forced at this time, because of the rising totalitarianism and the rising kind of re-paganism of our societies, to take this more seriously. I think is really true. So, dwight, I think you were about to ask a question. Oh, I was just thinking going back.

Dwight Vogt:

Well, thank you, daryl, you actually asked my question about five minutes ago. Thank you on the church. But this kingdom of gospel tension, you know, for me it really boils down to is the kingdom now or is it future? Because we're inviting people into the kingdom when we share the gospel. That's what we're doing. But if they're not, do we enter the kingdom in the next day? So then we teach them how to live in that kingdom, or do they only enter the kingdom when he comes again? Christ comes again, and so for me, the gospel is the invitation into the kingdom, and then you have to live in that again. And so for me, the gospel is the invitation into the kingdom, and then you have to live in that kingdom and you have to know how to live in that kingdom. You have to live a kingdom life. So I think we could save ourselves some challenges if we just use kingdom language from the beginning.

Teofilo Hayashi:

Yeah, I would say that I've been asked that question. Some people would say, teo, you talk about the kingdom as if it's actually utopic, that you could actually see the kingdom fully established here if we would have revival and an outpour of the Spirit. And to that I would say you know, when I read the Gospels, I see multiple times Jesus saying the kingdom is here. The kingdom is here. But then again I have to understand that yes, but in this world I will have tribulations, but be of good cheer. And so what kind of kingdom is this that says that we understand is here. However, I'm going to have tribulations, and the only way that I could actually make sense of all of it is to say that I'm in a tension. I'm in a tension of the kingdom here, but not in its fullness until the second coming. But in this tension of living kingdom right now, right here, I do that to occupy space until he comes, and I do that to be a good steward of the mission he's given us. And whenever he comes I'll have that in its fullness. And whenever he comes I'll have that in its fullness.

Teofilo Hayashi:

And so I see right now that we're in a struggle and I think that's one of the big issues also when we're talking about Christianity, that we're not, that we say that blatantly but in a very subtle way be a Christian so you can be happy. You know, I don't see that being promised in the gospel. I think that you're going to be a Christian, you're going to come into a fight and you're coming into a war, but it's worth it, and I see it as we're fighting to occupy space and to multiply our talents until he comes and then we get to enter into his rest, and so that explanation, or the way that I put it out there, I don't see it as being very well accepted, you know, well accepted.

Teofilo Hayashi:

Maybe people may want something a little bit more simple, more palatable, and so I don't know if people are willing to enlist themselves into war, or at least I know that the next gen is not really, but I don't see a way out. If we are to do kingdom work on earth, it will cost us tension, but at the end of the day it's worth the tension.

Darrow Miller:

Dietrich Bonhoeffer used to say when Christ calls a man to come, he calls him to die.

Teofilo Hayashi:

Yeah.

Darrow Miller:

And we don't present that at the church. We say come to Christ and he will bless you. Come to Christ and get all this good stuff. That's the message. No, the message is about the cross, and it's at the cross that Christ died so that we might live, and when we come to Christ, we're born to die. Wow, and do we say that? And as many people respond to that message as come to Christ and be blessed.

Scott Allen:

Wow.

Darrow Miller:

Well, thank you, Pastor Tao Thank you.

Teofilo Hayashi:

Thank you for having me, thank you for having me again, you for having me so enjoy these conversations oh I'm sorry I missed uh getting down to see you this month. I would have loved that but I, oh, we would love to have you. I'm gonna, we're gonna try next year to have you out here. If that's okay, I would love to shoot you an invite.

Darrow Miller:

Okay, that'd be great.

Teofilo Hayashi:

I learned so much just by talking to you guys, I've learned so much. Thank you.

Scott Allen:

Oh well, listen. Thanks for your faithfulness and your encouragement too today, because I do think you know it very well. May be that we're on the cusp of a revival of the Church right now, and you know, lord, may it be and may he use you, pastor Teo, as a significant part of that in Brazil and around the world.

Teofilo Hayashi:

Amen, I receive that.

Scott Allen:

Again, thank you for your time and for all of you who are listening today. Thank you for listening to this podcast. This is Ideas have Consequences. The podcast of the Disciple Nations.

Luke Allen:

Thank you for joining us for this episode with Pastor Teo Hayashi. Again, to learn more about Pastor Hayashi, make sure to visit this episode's page, which is linked in the show notes below, and make sure to find him on Instagram. He is Teohayashi on Instagram and his ministry is the Dunamis Movement. Or you can also find the church he leads at Zion, san Paolo. As a side note, he also has a podcast called the Teohayashi Podcast, and in a couple of weeks he's actually going to be interviewing my dad about his new book, 10 Words to Heal Our Broken World, which also Teoh generously endorsed. So if you're a fan, make sure to listen to that episode.

Luke Allen:

This podcast Ideas have Consequences, is brought to you by the Disciple Nations Alliance, which is a ministry that has worked around the world for the last 27 years, training over a million people in over 90 nations in a biblical worldview. If you'd like to learn more about our ministry, you can find us on Instagram, facebook and YouTube or on our website, which is disciplenationsorg. Thanks again for joining us. Guys, please share this show with a friend or leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcast or wherever you're listening, and we hope that you're able to join us here next week again on. Ideas have Consequences, consequences.