Ideas Have Consequences

FREEDOM (10 Words to Heal Our Broken World Series)

September 17, 2024 • Disciple Nations Alliance • Season 2 • Episode 39

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Freedom means I can do whatever I want, right? Wrong, that's a hijacked and distorted meaning. The Biblical view of freedom is "The capacity to self-govern; to act according to one's choices within God's created order and under His moral law." This matters because it gives guidance for a culture to truly maintain freedom without succumbing to humanity's gravitational pull toward chaos. It requires a collective embrace of the boundaries that God lovingly instituted for our good and flourishing. Join Scott and the team as we consider the wisdom of this definition and contrast it with the contemporary counterfeit. What kinds of lives and societies would grow from these contrasting definitions? This episode will encourage you to consider the profound importance and implications of this word and how it is used.

  • View the transcript, leave comments, and check out recommended resources on the Episode Landing Page!
  • Find out more about the book by Scott David Allen, 10 Words to Heal Our Broken World: Restoring the True Meaning of Our Most Important Words at 10wordsbook.org.
Scott Allen:

Whenever you seek to define or to exercise freedom or choice apart from these God-ordained limits, you quickly realize you yourself become enslaved to your own passions, your own desires, your sin nature, and you move in the direction as a people or a nation, you move in the direction of tyranny.

Scott Allen:

Hi friends, this is Scott Allen, president of the Disciple Nations Alliance, and I want to welcome you to another episode of Ideas have Consequences, the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. As we prepare to launch my newest book, 10 Words to Heal Our Broken World Restoring the True Meaning of Our Most Important Words, we wanted to go through each one of these 10 foundational words that are highlighted in the book, discussing their true meaning as well as how they've been fundamentally redefined in our contemporary culture. Now you might be asking why do words matter? Well, it's because words and definitions shape the way we think and feel, and that, in turn, determines our choices and our actions, and that shapes the kind of culture that we live in, for better or for worse, the kind of culture that we live in for better or for worse. And so if you want to work for a positive change in culture, in society, it has to begin by restoring the true meaning of our most important words.

Luke Allen:

Hi friends. I know my dad already greeted you, but I just wanted to say again thank you so much for joining us here on Ideas have Consequences. We are all so grateful that you've chosen to listen to this podcast. We love watching the way that this podcast has continued to reach a greater and greater audience worldwide. Just this morning I was looking at some of the numbers and I noticed that we have 20 new listeners in Ireland, 18 new listeners in Ghana, 17 people in Sweden listening hi people from Sweden and 17 people in Singapore. So we are so thankful for you guys deciding to listen to Ideas have Consequences. We hope you enjoy the show. For those of you who are new to the show, my name is Luke Allen and I will be your host today. I am joined by my colleagues here at the DNA and, for the sake of the podcast, my co-host today, darrell Miller and John Bottimore. Thanks for joining, guys. Good to be here. Yes indeed.

Luke Allen:

Thank you, yeah, great to have you guys. And once again today, my dad, scott Allen, the author of the upcoming book 10 Words to Heal Our Broken World, restoring the True Meanings of Our Most Important Words, will be the interviewee for the sake of the discussion. And if you're wondering what those 10 words are, they are as follows Truth, human sex, marriage, freedom, authority, justice, faith, beauty and love. Such important words. So for this series, we have been just going through one word at a time. So today is episode six and, as such, we are going to be unpacking the important word of freedom, as always at the beginning of these discussions. Dad, if you could just lay out for us the biblical definition as you share it in the book, and then line that up with the contemporary, more commonly used modern definition. So yeah, why don't we start there?

Scott Allen:

Yeah, well, it's great to be here with you, luke, and with Darrell and John. I know both of you guys care deeply about this subject and so I'm excited to get into it with you as well. You know, in the book I define true freedom this way it's the capacity to self-govern, to act according to one's choices within God's created order and under his moral law. And then I go on and I essentially read it. I give the counterfeit, or the redefinition of freedom that again is dominant in our culture today. I define it this way it's the power or the right to act, speak and think as one wants, without hindrance or restraint. And essentially, the redefined freedom is a freedom that makes no reference to God, his created order, his moral law. It's this right to choose, and as we get into it, without any kind of constraint, as we get into it, we'll see that that actually is not freedom. The Bible is very clear about that being a form of slavery, and that's the condition that we're in.

Darrow Miller:

Scott. What are some of the key aspects of this true definition that need to be pointed out to the audience?

Scott Allen:

Sure Well, thanks, darrell. I think there's two and they have to go together. I think at the core or the essence of freedom, it's the ability to make choices. Think about it in terms of the difference between human beings and animals. Animals don't make free choices. They function according to instinct or they are governed. If you're a farm animal, let's say, or a dog or something you know, you've got a master that kind of dictates what you do. The opposite of freedom, too, is if you can think of somebody who's in like imprisoned they make almost no choices. They don't choose when to get up, when to go to bed, what to eat. All those choices are made by somebody else. So at the core of freedom is this kind of idea of choosing. It's this freedom to make choices and to be responsible for the outcome of those choices as well. Be responsible for the outcome of those choices as well.

Scott Allen:

I think the second thing that has to go together with the first thing is that, because we live in God's world and under his rule, to be free you have to live within those limits or the constraints that he's established at creation. Creation, and you see this right away in Genesis, chapter 1. You see both aspects. In fact, some of the very first words that God speaks to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden are amazingly actually you are free. I just want people to pause and think about how important that is, that God created us free. He said you are free to Adam and Eve. And just to back up just a quick second on that too, you know we are free as human beings because that's part of what it means to be made in God's image. Actually, that's a kind of a fundamental aspect of what it means to be made in the image of God because God himself is free. In other words means to be made in the image of God because God himself is free. In other words, nobody constrains God. You know he does what he wills, he acts according to his sovereign choices.

Scott Allen:

But yet even there there's a limit, and that limit for God is his own moral character, his holiness and his righteousness, which is perfect. So the Bible says it's impossible for God to lie. He can't choose to deceive or lie. That goes against his own character. That's the limit, even on God. So we're made in God's image, he says, because he's free, we're free. We're not like the animals. We have this freedom to choose. It's essential to our task. But then he goes on and immediately says you are free to eat of any of the trees of the garden except right, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And so there you see the choice. You can choose to eat any of these fruits from this, you know, magnificent garden, but there's that limit, except this one. So you see both of those right away, darrell, I think, and I think both of those have to be said about true freedom.

Darrow Miller:

I think there's something else important to say. Right at this exact point, there is a choice to be made, and we can even choose to say no to God. That is how free we are, and I think that was established your point of. In the garden, our freedom was established, and it was established at the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and you can eat of all the trees, but not this one, and that meant that our freedom is real freedom.

Scott Allen:

It's real freedom and God respects it. Yeah, that's right.

Darrow Miller:

He respects it. We're not puppets, it's not an illusionary freedom. And we can say no to God, which just blows the mind. And why?

Scott Allen:

did God establish limits? This is where freedom gets kind of deep, and I think it's simply because we're not God. We live, you know, and in that sense, ultimately we all serve something you know there is no. This false freedom that we're going to get into is this illusion that we can just there is no God and we can do whatever we please. But the Bible is very clear that if you believe that you fall into a trap and that trap is the trap of slavery, actually it's slavery to Satan, or sin and Satan, and that bondage leads to death and destruction you completely lose freedom. So you know, this freedom that God gives us, there's a limit on it because we're not God, and that's actually the deception.

Scott Allen:

The deception that Satan makes in the garden is the deception around this kind of false freedom. You can be like God, knowing good from evil. In other words, you don't need to be under God, you can be God. That's a lie. Satan knows that lie. This is his ploy, that if he can make them eat essentially from that tree, reject that limit, he will enslave them and he will destroy them. And that's the story of mankind post-fall, essentially.

John Bottimore:

And that's God's loving gift, isn't it? Like a parent who gives a child freedom to go outside and play but says don't run across the street with busy cars playing. There are conditions to that freedom that demonstrate the parent's love. And God does the same thing. For instance, in John 8.32, god says if you abide in my word. So here's the initial condition if you obey, if you abide in my word, you're my disciples and you will know the truth. And what's the result of that? The truth will set you free. So that condition of abiding and obeying him is the are the wonderful god's guardrails that we can live with true freedom under. If we, if we first stay within god's guardrails and have wonderful and beautiful freedom outcomes as opposed to thinking our ways are somehow going to lead to true freedom. They're not. They're bondage.

Darrow Miller:

It would be good, I think, to talk about this a little later, because I know there's some other things you want to talk about first, Scott. But what is the root of freedom? It's truth, and I think it'd be good to come back to this passage later on. But one of the things in our podcast we always say that if you want to change a culture, you need to first change the language. And what, Scott? How does the language of freedom, the word freedom, shape a culture?

Scott Allen:

Well, you know, freedom is such a fundamentally biblical idea. In fact I would argue that, apart from the Bible, there is no other worldview that gives any kind of basis for freedom. Yeah, and I know this is not exactly the answer to your question, dara, about how freedom shapes a culture, but maybe just quickly on this, I just think it's so important. There's a couple of conditions that are required for freedom, okay, for it to even exist, and it actually is really a rare thing in our fallen world. You know, politically, most countries are forms of tyranny of some sort or another. There's very limited freedom. To have freedom, you have to have a God-given right, essentially to freedom, or, as our founding fathers said, you know, the right to life and to liberty, to life and to liberty. Those are God-given rights in the sense that nobody has a right to enslave me or you. Nobody has a right to do that. God created us with this right to be free people. And I think another condition that the Bible provides for freedom that's required or necessary is the rule of law. You know there has to be a higher law. That's a limit, if you will, but apart from that, you just have the rule of man or the rule of the most powerful, and that's of course just tyranny. And the Bible is the only worldview right that provides those two kind of twin foundations. There may be more things, but let me just think about secular materialism for a second. First of all, there is no God, there's no God-given right to freedom. You have two problems with it in terms of freedom. One is, you know, just this biological determinism. It's just matter in motion, right. We don't actually make free choices in the sense that our choices are biologically determined, if you will, or materially determined. And then, secondly, if you kind of start with this Darwinian idea, it's the law of the survival of the fittest Might makes right, it's the rule of the most powerful. So you don't have freedom in that worldview context. You don't have freedom in an animistic context where you have powerful, you know, gods and demons and ancestors, that kind of constrain, all choice, you know you don't make free choices within that framework.

Scott Allen:

And Marxism, actually, it's interesting. I've been doing a lot of refreshing my thinking on Marxism. These days you hear this amongst the woke people in our own country. They view freedom very negatively and critically. They see it's a tool of oppressors. It's this kind of false idea that oppressors use to oppress their victims. So there isn't a value for freedom, which is why we're losing freedom of speech. There's huge debates in our culture right now about the freedom of speech and we're seeing such a huge shift around that right now as we move away from the biblical framework to the postmodern and Marxist framework, where people are quite fine with censorship and constraints on people's freedom. You just move in the direction of tyranny.

Scott Allen:

So yeah, I think, darrell, back to your question about cultures that are shaped by freedom. When you have true freedom, that is, the freedom to make choices within God's moral order, according to his law, cultures thrive right Because you can govern, you can self-govern, you can make choices to govern creation, to do whatever God has put on your heart to do. This is again, I think, freedom is kind of a function of in the garden. God says I want you to rule. You know you rule over creation, do something with it, make something magnificent and beautiful, and you know to do that you have to have freedom right. In other words, you have to kind of be free to imagine, to create, to innovate, to invent. So these are all hallmarks of cultures that have been shaped by freedom. There tends to be incredible innovation, incredible prosperity, actually, as well.

Darrow Miller:

But again, the implication is that freedom is within the framework of ordinances, absolutely Of God's holy orders.

Scott Allen:

Yes, of God himself, right, yeah, yeah, you have the laws of nature.

Darrow Miller:

You have moral law. These are real.

Scott Allen:

They're real. Yeah, they're absolutely real In an atheistic universe.

Darrow Miller:

Things that are non-material are not real.

Scott Allen:

Yeah, I mean just to give a really basic example of this. You talk about laws. There's God's moral law, the Ten Commandments, but there's also natural laws like the law of gravity. I mean those are real laws and they provide real limits.

Scott Allen:

They are real constraints and limits. So just imagine for a second you are flying in an airplane and you want to jump out the door of the airplane without a parachute. You know you're free to do that. That's a free choice, right. But there are consequences. But that freedom is kind of short-lived, right, you know, until you hit the ground you know that's the end of your freedom, essentially because there is a limit or a constraint that that law of gravity applies, you know, creates. So we all live within these limits and you know it's the same thing with a moral. You know a moral law. You can choose to abuse alcohol. That's a free choice. But you will become enslaved to that choice, as everyone knows who's an alcoholic. You no longer are free, you know. So we can think about it in a very simple way, I think that people can kind of understand or relate to. To be truly free you have to live within these limits of you know God's moral law and his physical or natural law as well. Sign up for our book launch team.

Luke Allen:

What is the book launch team, you ask? Well, it's an agreement between us and you. That's number one we will send you a free, early released copy of this book in October. And then number two in response, you will read the book and leave us an Amazon review upon its publication date. And if you really want to be a super fan, you can even share the book with a friend.

Luke Allen:

To sign up for the book launch team, head to 10wordsbookorg. Again, that is 10wordsbookorg and you can spell that either with a number or T-E-N. And, by the way, as an insider tip, don't wait too long to sign up, because there is only 100 spots available on this book launch team. To sum up, the first 100 approved signups will receive an advanced paperback copy of this book by mail, free shipping included. Participants are asked to read the book and prepare a rating and review on Amazon for the release of the book in November. To join, you must be a resident of the United States or Canada and have an active Amazon account, and we can only send one book copy per mailing address and one last time. The link is 10wordsbookorg and you can also find that link down in the show notes below.

Darrow Miller:

Yesterday in the sermon, my pastor used the phrase same-sex marriage. Same-sex marriage. And I almost leaped up and said, pastor, you don't have same-sex marriage. That doesn't exist. You have marriage, and that's between a man and a woman, and outside of that it's not marriage. Call it something else, right, and the same thing here. With freedom, yes, there's, there is a definition of freedom, and part of that definition is you're free to choose within the boundaries of god's laws and ordinances.

Scott Allen:

That's right.

Darrow Miller:

Anything outside of that is not freedom and we should not call it freedom, because it's not freedom, it's slavery. You become a slave to your emotions. You become a slave to your choices Short-lived freedom, that's right.

John Bottimore:

We see the outcomes of that and the results of that, which are not freedom, they're bondage. So I think this is a good segue to perhaps to the next question Earlier, when you talked about the redefinition of freedom in our contemporary culture, redefinition of freedom in our contemporary culture according to this false definition. What are some of the changes that we've seen that pull this false definition and impacts of that, that pull this false definition away from the true?

Scott Allen:

one. What are some impacts, John, or what are some of the reasons for that?

John Bottimore:

Yeah, I mean freedom has been redefined in our contemporary culture according to this false definition of freedom of doing whatever we want, as opposed to being within God's limits. So what are some of these changes and, I guess, the impacts of them?

Scott Allen:

Yeah, I mean, I think that whenever you seek to define or to exercise freedom or choice apart from these, you know God-ordained limits. You quickly realize you yourself become kind of enslaved to your own passions, your own desires, your sin nature, and you move in the direction as a people or a nation, you move in the direction of tyranny. So we're clearly seeing that, you know, in the West, as the West has abandoned the biblical framework, it still uses this word freedom. In fact, I was struck by this, john. I watched a little bit of the Democratic Convention and they used the word freedom all over that convention. People had it on placards and banners, but it only actually. You know, I was really thinking what do they mean by freedom? How are they defining that word? And I thought they only.

Scott Allen:

They clearly don't support freedom of speech. They don't really even support freedom of conscience. They want to impose. And you see this, for example, with a person like Jack Phillips you know who's this baker in Colorado? And he said you know, when he was being confronted by this you know this homosexual couple, you will make a cake that celebrates homosexual marriage. He said that violates my conscience. You know, you go, there's other people that would be glad to make that cake. Don't make me make that cake. And they said no, we don't respect that. You will. You know it's a cram down. You will do this and if you don't, there'll be consequences. You'll be forced to pay fines, you'll be in violation of various state laws. So you know there's no freedom of speech. They're happy to censor and we saw this, you know we're seeing it right now. Just this huge fight over freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, you name it. So they don't mean freedom in that way. I think they mean freedom in only two respects freedom to abort your unborn child, to kill your unborn baby Reproductive freedom.

Scott Allen:

And freedom to express your sexuality in any way you want. Now, those aren't freedom. Okay, that's not freedom for that baby. Let's take that example right. I mean, you are treating that baby in the same moral way that you would treat a slave, that they're a non-person.

Darrow Miller:

This is why I would argue you don't call it freedom. Well, I don't disagree with you.

Luke Allen:

You don't call it marriage, yeah.

Scott Allen:

But they are calling it freedom.

Luke Allen:

I know, but it's not. It's this counterfeit.

Darrow Miller:

It's this redefined idea they're calling it freedom, because freedom is such a powerful word, like compassion, yes, like justice, like equal justice. These are powerful concepts and they use the powerful concept, but they've redefined it. And when they say freedom, they don't mean freedom, they mean license. It's the license to do whatever you want, whenever you want, outside of boundaries, because there are no boundaries.

Scott Allen:

Well, and it's not freedom, because it leads to slavery.

Darrow Miller:

That's right, that's why it's not freedom, but at that moment it leads to chaos. Everybody does what is right in their own eyes. Leads to chaos.

Luke Allen:

And tyranny.

Darrow Miller:

Tyranny is the answer to the chaos, correct. It becomes the excuse for chaos, because a nation cannot function where everybody does what is right in their own eyes. And how do you respond to that? You have to bring order, and that order is tyranny.

Scott Allen:

Well, this is why we wrote the book in some ways, darrell, because, in the same way, all of these words—justice, freedom, marriage—they've all been redefined to mean something that they are not, and so it's vital that we, as Christians, understand what is this, what's the true understanding of this, if we want to retain it or sustain it, especially in a free nation, a nation at least historically has been free. Because if we don't, if we can't get off the trajectory that we're on right now, we will lose it, and we will lose it, ironically, in the name of freedom, right?

Darrow Miller:

This so-called freedom that isn't freedom, as you're saying, darrell, and part of what we need to do there, scott, is exactly what your book is arguing for. We need to take words seriously and not allow them to use the word freedom. We should not allow them to confirm the word freedom on what they're advocating, because it is not free, it's license. And when Christians in public, when you hear somebody say freedom and you hear what they're describing, no, that's not freedom, that's license.

Scott Allen:

Well, you know, license. License meaning you're free to do whatever you want. But it's really not even license, darrell. It's slavery, is what it is.

John Bottimore:

Yeah, that's the other side it's compelling. On that side it's not truly voluntary. They want to use the word freedom because freedom is a beautiful word with the right kinds of outcomes and the right definitions. But freedom, to really compel someone to do something or to believe a certain thing, and when you communicate that you don't believe, that you believe in a different thing that's to compel someone to something is just another form of bondage. It's not, it's not free at all. So that's the kind of change I think that we're seeing in society. That's, that's not healthy.

Luke Allen:

Mr Miller, you're saying that we should not let them use that word freedom, because what they really mean is license or bondage, quite practically. How do we do that With a lot of these ten words? The problem with them is Christians are yelling, we want freedom. People that oppose Christianity are yelling, we want freedom. And yet they mean a completely different thing.

Luke Allen:

Say I was at the DNC, like we were talking about. Would I come up to someone and say oh, you can't use the word freedom, that's my word. You know how do we practically do this? You know what you're saying is license. You need to switch your word. They're not going to do that. They love the word freedom because the word freedom comes with a lot of power, and they love the word freedom because the word freedom comes with a lot of power, and I would argue that that power comes from the Bible. But they like these words freedom, love justice, because they have a lot of weight to them and because people respect them. So how are we going to practically make them change their vocabulary on these words?

Darrow Miller:

Well, just like I said about yesterday, I almost stood up in the middle of the service and said to the pastor you don't say same-sex marriage. When you say same-sex marriage, you are agreeing with the new definition of marriage and that is not marriage. This book on words is important because it's establishing what the real concepts are and what the counterfeits are, and we need to be willing to call out the counterfeits. Transgenderism Call it out, Don't accept that as normal.

John Bottimore:

It's a reminding, maybe, luke, maybe that's one way at least that we can remind people of what the real and true definition is, whether or not they accept it or not, or whether or not they push back against. That is under their own reaction and their own response, but it can be a reminder, and a firm reminder of what this freedom really means and the intent behind it, and it's really meant to be others-centered and not self-centered, that's right.

Scott Allen:

And I think my goal and go ahead, darrell, yeah.

Darrow Miller:

This is called what John's saying here, and what I'm saying is to speak prophetically to the culture. This is what prophets did. They told the truth to culture and when we accept someone else's definition and let it go, we either use it or we don't challenge it. We're not being prophetic. So we need to speak prophetically. When we hear in a Christian setting or outside of a Christian setting, we need to call it what it really is and not allow it to go under the auspices of freedom or compassion or justice, because it's not Social justice, is not biblical justice, as Scott so developed.

Scott Allen:

Yeah, and I think what my heart in this project is that I think when you use the same word, this is the deception of it and Satan's behind all lies and deception, and so it's a very powerful tactic you use the same word, but you hollow it out and give it a different meaning, and when you do that, you can even have followers of Jesus. That's right, you know, be caught up in this false understanding.

Darrow Miller:

And so my heart is to say, because it's a biblical word.

Scott Allen:

Yeah, christian understand what this word means. It's a really, really powerful concept and we have to know it. We have to live it and uphold it or defend it. You know, in the culture. And not let them use that wonderful word illegitimately, or at least explain how it's been redefined in the culture, what this false cultural meaning is of freedom, which is yeah and to point out when it's being misused.

Scott Allen:

So, right, exactly, yeah, yeah, you know it's. The bible is Right, exactly, you know, by believing in this lie of Satan and violating that limit. And then it's a story of regaining the freedom you know. That reaches its culmination or its high point on the cross of Christ. You know, but it's such a—I love looking at the Scriptures through the lens of freedom. God created us to be free. You know it's lost, and then it's this kind of remarkable story, you know, of regaining freedom.

Scott Allen:

You know, I think about the Old Testament, you know, and God gave the law to Moses. They were enslaved before that in Egypt, right, you know. So they were enslaved spiritually and politically and in every respect they were slaves. God sets them free, you know. He literally opens up the you know the gates and they go free into the desert, and then he gives them the law, because that's, you know, this is the thing that will keep you free.

Scott Allen:

I love what Cecil B DeMille you know, he was the director of that famous movie, the Ten Commandments you know he said I'm going to paraphrase his quote you know, god didn't give the law as some kind of you know, cosmic killjoy, moral constraint. No, he gave the law to keep them, you know, to keep them free. That was the very thing that was going to keep them free. That was the very thing that was going to keep them free. And you see this in Deuteronomy when God says to, when Moses says to the people of Israel, before they go into the promised land, in those powerful sections of the scriptures where he says you know, I've set before you life and death, blessings and curses. If you follow this law, you know this is the thing that will keep you free. You will be free, you will have life.

Scott Allen:

If you abandon it, if you go and you choose, if you kind of go in the direction of this false freedom and license and you know, serving other gods and doing you know, you will be enslaved again. So then he says choose this day, right. Then again that choose. That's the essence of freedom. You choose, but there's this consequence if you don't accept that limit. And of course Israel wasn't able. They weren't able to do that. So they found themselves enslaved over and over again, right In Babylon, and you know whatnot?

Darrow Miller:

But I want to underscore what you've just said, scott. They were enslaved. Yes, the easy thing for God was to lead them out of slavery. To take this people, to lead them through the flame at night and the smoking pillar in the daytime, to get them to the sea part, the sea. That was easy. It was easy to get him out of physical slavery. What was the harder part? The harder part was to get the slavery out of their mind. They were free physically from Egypt, but in their mind they were still enslaved. They had a slave mentality. Now the hard part begins, and this is what you're describing in Deuteronomy. It's the story of the Pentateuch how do you take a slave people and make them a free people? Well, what did he do? He gave them the Decalogue, the moral law, because it is that moral law that creates the framework for building free societies, right.

Scott Allen:

Exactly, exactly.

John Bottimore:

Amen.

Scott Allen:

And you know, darrell, it's important to say you know, we, at one level, we love our freedom. I mean I love getting up in the morning and making a choice about what I want for breakfast or where I want to go on vacation, or what I want to do with my life. I mean those are precious things. But at another level they're hard things.

Scott Allen:

Freedom is not easy and if you've ever talked to somebody who's been a slave or imprisoned for a long time In fact I remember this, if you saw that movie, the Shawshank Redemption, that famous movie there's a really poignant part of that film where, you know, it's a film about people that are in prison.

Scott Allen:

And there was one guy who'd been in prison his almost his whole life and he was in his probably 70s and he was, you know, he served his time and was set free, but he couldn't, you know, for all of those years he had been told what to do, what to eat. You know he couldn't handle the freedom, you know he just didn't know what to make of all of these choices that he had to do every day with his life and he committed suicide. So I mean it's really sad but it's a reminder that, and if you've talked to people that have lived behind the Iron Curtain. I remember talking to some people that there was a kind of a like you know, it's nice that I don't have to make all these choices. I'm told who to marry, I'm told what kind of work to do. I'm told, you know, and you know, you even saw this with the Israelites when they came out of Egypt. They kind of wanted to go back at some level. You know.

Scott Allen:

You know, at least we had food to eat. You know we didn't have any choices to make, but you know now we have to take essentially it's responsibility. Freedom comes with responsibility and that can be a heavy burden as well.

Darrow Miller:

Yeah, and that is the thing we're seeking. Go ahead, John.

John Bottimore:

Yeah.

John Bottimore:

I was just going to say that I love the connection between faith, freedom and virtue. We will not choose to do things that are virtuous without a right understanding of freedom and we won't have a right understanding of freedom or, or more importantly, we won't have true freedom, not only an understanding of it, but a true freedom. That's not a freedom, but that's not a bondage type freedom Unless we have the right understanding of faith and who God is and what he's given us. As we've said from the beginning, in this framework of not limitless freedom, we won't choose to do things that are virtuous and choose things that are helpful to others and all we will choose license.

Scott Allen:

And we've said the outcome of that is not good. I think you see that so clearly with our founding fathers in the United States and their conception of what it meant for the United States to be a free nation. And our revolution versus the French revolution might be good. Just to point that because it really does get to the divide that you're talking about. Our founding fathers wanted a free nation, but they recognized that that was only going to be possible where the citizens would govern themselves.

Darrow Miller:

Based on God's laws.

Scott Allen:

Based on God's law, right and you know if they didn't? You see, if they just did whatever they wanted to do then you couldn't have a free people. It would be chaos which would lead to a tyranny, and that's exactly what happened in the French Revolution.

Darrow Miller:

And that's exactly where we are today. We are a people who are not self-governing. We follow our noses, licenses what we're after to do whatever we want, without responsibility, and this is why we see the West in decline. She is moving into disorder, away from God's order, into disorder, and that creates a place for the state and tyrants to come in and impose godless order.

Scott Allen:

That's right. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right, yeah, the beauty of this conception of freedom—in fact, oz Guinness, in his wonderful book Free People's Suicide he talks about the triangle of freedom that our founding fathers understood, john, and that you know, at the top of this triangle is you can see true freedom. But for that freedom to be sustained, people needed to be virtuous, meaning they needed to submit to God's law and to govern themselves according to God's law. And this, by the way, let me just pause on that, because this is why Christ actually did set us free.

Scott Allen:

The Bible says what's the famous passage? If you are in Christ, you are free. Indeed. What's the famous passage? If you are in Christ, you are free. Indeed, you know, I mean Christ, because he lived the perfect life that we couldn't live. He completely obeyed God's moral law. He was completely free in that respect, and we, in our sinful nature, are not able to be free. We are sold in—the Bible uses this language of slavery. We are enslaved to sin and to Satan, and God, through Christ, redeemed us, he bought us back, and then he gives us this new heart and this desire to obey him, to be virtuous, to uphold his law and the forgiveness if we don't. So he creates the conditions, through the cross and the gospel, for us to be spiritually free, which is the foundation for every other kind of freedom, political and otherwise. So we have that, that virtue, that ability to self-govern, now through the power of Jesus Christ and the cross of Christ and the indwelling of his Holy Spirit. So we have that.

Scott Allen:

But then Os Guinness says the third leg of that triangle is faith. That can only be sustained through, you know, a deep religious faith, or a faith in Jesus Christ or God and his law, right. And then that leg ties up to freedom, and that can only be freely chosen. You can't impose that on somebody. That has to be, you know, ultimately our faith has to be a freely chosen thing. It can't be imposed from the outside. So the founding fathers understood that. All of you know that this freedom had to be within that kind of framework, and they were brilliant in that respect.

Luke Allen:

I am really enjoying this discussion, but we are running a little bit low on time. To sum up, I would like to try an analogy and I know there's no such thing as a perfect analogy, but I think I've got one that works pretty good here and I'm sure all my philosophical friends will hate me for this that works pretty good here, and I'm sure all my philosophical friends will hate me for this, but it's going to be a sports analogy.

Luke Allen:

Um, I love my sports analogies. Uh, as far as I can tell, when I'm looking at these two definitions and just listening to you guys now for 40 minutes, um, I think basketball you can choose any sport. The sport I played for a long time is basketball. I understand it the most. Um, but freedom is the ability to choose.

Luke Allen:

Uh, you know, what we ought within God's moral framework, yeah, so the way we're explaining it here, let's say God's, let's say God is the inventor of basketball. Okay, so he gets to choose what the framework is for how to play the game. He gets to choose the rules of what's right and what's wrong. He gets to choose where the out of bounds line is. He gets to choose, um, that you should dribble and not travel and just carry the ball. He gets to choose those things. He set it up and now he puts us into the game as the players. We're not playing soccer, we're not playing football, we're playing basketball. And as long as we stay within the rules, the rule book there's a basketball rule book that God wrote then we can enjoy this game and be free within it.

Darrow Miller:

And it's very exciting.

Scott Allen:

No, but that's a great analogy. That's a great analogy.

Luke Allen:

I'm not done yet.

Scott Allen:

I hope this analogy keeps going.

Luke Allen:

The problem is a lot of people are put into the basketball game and they don't understand that God made the game and they don't understand that he made a rule book for the game. So they just blindly walk out of bounds and then they get a penalty called. Or they just blindly start walking with the ball and they get a travel called and it interferes with them, it hurts them. You know where they're pushing, against the moral framework that God has created for us, the moral framework that God has created for us.

Luke Allen:

I remember when I was like 10 years old, this one game I kept getting this call called on me and the ref would blow his whistle and he would make this motion with his hands. And I didn't know what it meant and I was like I'm just dribbling, what am I doing wrong? And no one explained to me that he was calling a carry, which is when you put your hand too far under the basketball while you're dribbling it and you kind of carry it between dribbles instead of keeping your hand on top, just pushing down the ball. Anyways, I was so confused and it was really frustrating. And if no one explained that I was breaking a rule, then I just I was like you're inhibiting my freedom.

Luke Allen:

Can I not dribble at all? Should I not touch the ball? Like what am I doing wrong? And it's really confusing. And I think it's for that reason that a lot of non-believers have a really difficult time of figuring out how to live a flourishing life in this world is because they don't know the rule book for the world. But then when people come to Christ, a lot of times they say it's so freeing, it's so freeing to be a Christian. It really opens your eyes to how beautiful this life can be.

Scott Allen:

And.

Luke Allen:

I think it's. I mean, it's exactly that verse, john. You already shared it, but the truth will set you free is Christians know the rule book and they know the one who created the game that we live in, and because of that, we can explore the game in its fullness. There's a lot of freedom within the game, but you have to remember the rules. So, anyways.

John Bottimore:

I'm good, it's a good analogy. Good analogy, luke, because your, your. Your analogy shows that when you disobey the rules, whether whether intentionally or not, you you're. You're ruining the enjoyment for yourself in the game, you're ruining the enjoyment and the freedom for the teammates and you're ruining the enjoyment for the fans yeah, well, you can't, you ultimately, can't you?

Scott Allen:

yeah, you can't play the game, it just devolves into chaos.

Luke Allen:

Yeah, yeah, so you have the ability to choose, but if you choose the wrong thing, you're going to inhibit your freedom, you're essentially, you know, destroying your freedom. But if you choose the right thing, then you have true freedom, and true freedom leads to more freedom but, you need somebody to tell that kid.

Darrow Miller:

Here's the rule, that's the compassionate thing to do, that's the loving thing to do for the kid. And who's that person that's going to speak to the kid so he knows the rules of the game?

Scott Allen:

It's the coach or a teammate that knows more 's the loving guy that's right?

Scott Allen:

no, I think it's. It's such a good in so many respects. Luke, you're talking about any kind of game. You know there's rules and you can't really play the game without those rules. You're not free to um, you know and it. But if you do, if everyone agrees to abide by those rules, there's incredible. You can do something magnificent, you know these, you can excel, and there's incredible beauty and power. Just think about basketball when it's, you know, played at its highest level.

Scott Allen:

And I think that you know we're talking not about basketball, we're talking about life, and it's the same thing. This is the game of life, if you will. There's certain rules, and God established those rules, and when we abide by them, we flourish. I mean, we can excel at this incredibly high level because we're created to be free. That's how God created us, it's our image, it's part of what it means to be made in his image, and that's what God wants. He wants us to be free, truly free, you know, and so, yeah, I think it's just such a perfect analogy, you know.

Darrow Miller:

And when you are like you said, scott, you work to the best in basketball and you see them make a shot and you go, wow, how did they do that? You're approaching holy ground at that point. Yeah, I'm not saying it's holy, but I'm saying you're approaching something of perfection.

Scott Allen:

Yeah, guys, we haven't talked about, you know, an important element here. I think some people may be kind of wondering, because you know it is tough. This is a very tough thing. This idea of freedom is very tough in one respect because it runs up against the idea of God's sovereign authority, you know, and if God is completely sovereign, you know, how is it that we have free choices? You know, and I know that that's a tough debate in theology I just my only you know response and I know time is running short and that's a huge subject but it's that both of those ideas are respected in the Scripture and how they tie together or work together seems contradictory, but it's clearly not. And how we understand it, I think, is just—it's hard because we're finite and we're limited in our understanding just by nature of being created. You know we're not God, but both of those ideas are clear in the Scriptures. God is sovereign. You know we don't make choices that catch him by surprise. Oh gosh, I didn't realize you were going to do that. Now what am I going to do? You know he's not limited in any way by our choices, or by Satan's choices for that matter. You know he's sovereign and yet he made us free, you know, and we have this freedom to make choices and are held responsible and are held responsible.

Scott Allen:

In the book I use the example of Joseph, the famous story of Joseph and his brothers to illustrate this, where, you know, they, because of their jealousy at that point in the story where they threw Joseph into the pit, you know, intending to kill him, essentially leave him for dead. That was a choice. They made, that choice. God, you know, didn't restrain them right. And yet, at the very end of the story, you know, you see the brothers being reunited with Joseph in Egypt and you know it's a very poignant moment, you know, is he going to be angry, upset, bitter, and he makes that famous statement that what you chose I think he even uses that word what you chose for evil, god used for good.

Scott Allen:

You know, and this idea that God even you know he's greater than our choices, he can choose to bring good out of the evil choices that we make, but nevertheless, he respects our choices and we will be held accountable. There will be a judgment seat and we see this in Revelation. There will be judgment where all that we've done, all of our actions and our thoughts, all of our choices will be held up and judged against his law and we'll be found guilty of violating the law. You know, and we'll be, you know, having to pay the punishment or the consequences of that, unless we cry out for mercy Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner, and then that punishment is paid for by Christ. But yeah, there's again a ton to say about that, but I just think it's important for Christians bottom line. You've got to uphold both of those Thoughts on that, guys, as we wrap up.

John Bottimore:

That's right. Well, I think it comes down to understanding that what you said earlier, scott we're made in God's image and when we have that humble posture before him, we want to do things that please him. We want to know him, we want to know his word, and we will choose the right kinds of things to live the right kind of things in freedom. We'll make mistakes, we'll make mistakes every day, but at least we'll have the right trajectory in our lives. And I love Psalm 37, for delight yourself in the Lord and he'll give you the desires of your heart. This is not. This is not saying that he will grant our licenses, not saying that he will grant our licenses. This is saying that he will change our hearts so that we have good desires that are consistent with his word. But if we, as society, remake God in our image, then all limits are off and we have these terrible consequences and these freedoms that are no freedom at all. They're bondage.

Scott Allen:

Yeah, no, it's just such a critical time for us in the West because we have a legacy, a heritage of freedom spiritual freedom through Christ and the cross, and political freedom, because Christians, faithful Christians, through centuries, through the Magna Carta and you name it, have lived out the implications of true freedom and created free nations, doubt the implications of true freedom and created free nations. But those free nations can only be sustained by obedience to the law, to the respect for the limits. That's the moment we're in. We're no longer doing that and we will lose our freedom, it's for sure. We will become enslaved. Our free nations will become tyrannies. We're moving that direction. So I think, all that to say, it's really critical that the church, we as followers of Jesus Christ, understand true freedom and work hard and pray hard and live it out in our own lives to sustain it at this moment, or it'll be lost.

John Bottimore:

It's very fragile to sustain it at this moment or it'll be lost.

Luke Allen:

It's very fragile, so true, I think that's a good place to wrap up and that's a good call to action for all of us this week, as you guys heard me say during the commercial today, we have some big announcements for the book as of today. First and foremost, if you want to get your copy of the book 10 Words to Heal Our Broken World for free, we have given you a chance to do that by joining the launch team for the book. If you would like to join the launch team, all you have to do is go to the webpage for the book, which, by the way, has all things 10 Words to Heal Our Broken World on it. That page is under the URL 10wordsbookorg 10wordsbookorg. Again, you can use a number 10, or just T, n, whatever you want. Those will both take you to the webpage. On that page, you will find right away the place to sign up for the launch team and um, there is obviously a little bit of a quid pro quo to the free book. Um, once you get the book, we would ask for you guys to leave a review on Amazon's and then Goodreads as well, if you also use that site. So that's how you can join the launch team. You can do that today. By the way, there is only 100 spots open on that team and they are filling up, so make sure to go and do that right away if you would like a copy of this book.

Luke Allen:

As I've told you here on the other episodes of this series, we're hoping for you guys to not only listen to this podcast, but also be inspired to share this message with more people. These words really matter, and I think this book will be extremely helpful for our time and for people, just as for Christians, to understand the true definitions of these words. That seems like that's our application at the end of every one of these episodes. We need to know these words as Christians, and we need to not only know them but champion them, and this book will be a really helpful resource for anyone who is interested in doing that. So we hope that you guys can continue to help us promote this message by sharing about the book, sharing about this podcast series, going to 10wordsbookorg and learning more ways to share the message as well. So thanks again for listening today to the word freedom. We will be back with you guys soon for another episode, and this podcast is called ideas have consequences. So thanks again for listening and we'll catch you next week.