Ideas Have Consequences

Art Evangelizes Culture with Jeremiah & Mona Enna, & Hector Ramirez

• Disciple Nations Alliance • Season 2 • Episode 38

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Is there such a thing as Christian art? Or are there just Christians who make great art that represents something of the nature of God? There are no Christian bagels, surgeries, or financial portfolios, so why do we expect artists in our churches to create sculptures or plays that are "Christian?" Only humans can be Christians. Let's bring freedom to the artistic gift in ourselves and others, glorifying God through any art that speaks to the beauty, hope, joy, meaning, or grandeur of God and His character. 

Today, we sit down with three professional artists who embody this and who use the beauty of their art to speak prophetically to their cultures. Join us and learn how you can use this language to spread hope in despair, splendor in ugliness, and ultimately disciple your nation with God's beauty. 

Mona Enna:

You know, christians are needed in every single field, because every single field in society needs evangelists.

Jeremiah Enna:

Yeah, he understood what biblical evangelism really was, that it's not getting a commitment or getting someone to say a prayer, but it's the whole life. And so if we're going to do evangelism, then we have to see all of life redeemed in every sector and speak the gospel in word and deed and in excellence and all those ways.

Luke Allen:

Hi friends, welcome to. Ideas have Consequences. The podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. Here on this show we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world, to all the nations, but our mission also includes to be the hands and feet of God, to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected this second part of her mission and today most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God. Hey everyone, thank you for joining us. My name is Luke Allen. I will be your host today and I am really excited for today's discussion here on the show. I am joined by three Americans, a Colombian and a Fin. Is that a Finnish? What do you guys call yourselves?

Hector Ramirez:

She's a Fin, I'm a Finn, a Finn All right, right on.

Luke Allen:

Yeah, we have three professional artists joining Darrow and I today. So, as always when we sit down with artists we love to hear more about. I mean, here at the DNA, here on the intro to this podcast, you heard us talk about how, as Christians, our mission is to spread the gospel around the world, to all the nations, and it also a part of that is to bring the truth, the goodness and the beauty of God's kingdom into the nations. And, as us Christians know very well, we do, I think, a great job at emphasizing truth and bringing the truth of God's kingdom into the world. But sometimes we overlook the beauty, and that's why I always love listening to artists and how they are bringing the beauty of God's kingdom to the people, to the nations, and sharing in very profound ways God's truths through the arts and through beauty. So, yeah, today we are joined by Mona and Jeremiah, ina and Hector Ramirez.

Luke Allen:

All three of you guys have been on the show before, so our audience should be familiar with you. I would highly recommend anyone who hasn't listened to those episodes yet to go back and find those. For anyone who missed those episodes, hector, who was just on the show, is an actor and a theater director. He's from Madrid, spain, originally from Colombia, where I loved hearing your story, hector, a few weeks ago, about how you grew up and became a hippie and a communist and then was dramatically saved by Christ which is amazing and then spent over a decade in YWAM and eventually ended up in Europe where you have set up the Performing Arts Center there in Madrid, and currently you are on the road You're actually with Jeremiah and Mona all sitting in the same room, which is fun in Kansas City, and you're on the road with your current production, which is called Animal Talks, and I'm excited to listen and learn more about that today.

Luke Allen:

Mona, I am just looking here at your bio. It's a fascinating story, really interesting. You grew up in Finland, two hours from the Arctic Circle. I see that's crazy. That's a fun fact. Um, you uh or god's used you in a powerful way through the arts to uh share about him via great art and dance and ballet specifically, and you and jeremiah uh met, I believe, in your 20s in israel and yeah, eventually got married, and now you guys are both in kansas city and you started the culture house there and the Storling Dance Theater, which I would love to hear a little bit more about as well.

Luke Allen:

But yeah, darrell, you know these guys. You've known all of them for a lot longer than I have. Why don't you just introduce them to our audience a little bit more?

Darrow Miller:

Well, I met Jeremiah and Mona in Colorado, iado, I don't know, must have been 25 years ago it was a long time yeah and my wife and I were there.

Darrow Miller:

My wife had danced in high school and so we went to a dancing workshop and mona was there, uh, doing ballet, and I was stunned by her artistry and work. And I said to Marilyn, what Mona was doing was heads and heels about what everybody else was doing. And I said to Marilyn I wonder if she's been influenced by Labrie and the Schaffers. And that night I happened to be sending sitting next to Jeremiah as we were going out to dinner and I asked him and he said oh yes, we've been mentored by someone from Labrie.

Jeremiah Enna:

Yeah, Ellis Potter specifically for me, and then eventually Mona got to meet Ellis and her own pastor. Yeah, absolutely, and we're still deep, deep friends.

Darrow Miller:

And I remember him seeing him. I think he was wearing a cape and I thought he looks more like an elf or a hobbit. I can't wait to tell him that one. So that's a memory from 40 or more years ago. So Ellis was the one who worked with you and mentored you. And then I don't know, Hector, how many years ago it was, but I was lecturing in Spain to a group of YWAMers and you and Lily were there.

Hector Ramirez:

Yeah.

Darrow Miller:

And I think I did a session on the balladeers Balladeers and you asked me afterwards if I'd come and see your center that you and Lily had started and we've been friends ever since. For those of you that have read A Call for Balladeers about beauty and art for the discipling of nations Both the Enas and Hector Ramirez their stories are in this book and when we were talking a few weeks ago with Hector, interviewing him for Ideas have Consequences, I mentioned that what he was doing was very similar to what the enos were doing and he said well, I know the enos yeah, but I had no idea that you guys knew each other.

Darrow Miller:

that was just really funny, and so it suddenly explained to me why you were doing, had a similar vision, you'd been influenced by the same kind of people and you were doing something very similar with the arts, to engage the culture. And I said after that, hey, it'd be great to get you guys together. So that's what we're doing today yes, perfect so maybe you can start by sharing with us how you met I think it was jim, wasn't it?

Hector Ramirez:

uh, not really, it was uh yeah jim jim. So many james, you know, but that's right, jim, burger, jim. And diana.

Jeremiah Enna:

Yeah, jim, burger and diana. So the irony is here. You know we lived in oh, I lived in Europe, mona's, from there you're living in Madrid, but we did not meet and in fact our ministry in Sweden served a lot one of our original board members, jim Berger, and a great guy. Great guy, strong mind, strong minded couple Jim and.

Jeremiah Enna:

Diana also came out of YWAM in Canada under Colin Harvinson and so we moved to Kansas and one of our board members just keeps saying you have to meet Hector, you have to meet Hector, you have to meet Hector. So it was really through one person, obviously a like-minded person, that we got connected, which was ironic, because in Europe we weren't that far apart but just never crossed paths.

Hector Ramirez:

The interesting thing is that I met you. I don't know if you remember we took a sabbatical to come to America to try to find out what was our next step in our ministry in Spain. So we went to Belhaven University for about a year and a half, I remember that, and then we traveled all around North America trying to meet different ministries, visiting some universities, trying to find out what was going on in the art world in north america. And that's when we met you here and you were starting with the school here which is painting you know right right and uh, so it was.

Hector Ramirez:

It was, um, very helpful for us to see what was going on, and it also helped us to see, you know, what we should go when we went back to Spain, because we were asking God, you know, what is it that we're supposed to do when we get back to Spain? You know, we're at a point where we didn't know should we carry on with the theater company we had or should we start something different? And anyway, this is why how we met and when we were in the process of going everywhere in in north america, yeah, and as it developed darrow, as they developed programs, as we were growing, we sent a couple students over to be interns.

Jeremiah Enna:

Yes, so that kept us connected over the years, because some of our programs that they saw here where we were able to do, programs that gathered lots of young people and served them through the arts and also blessed them, hopefully with our approach, they were beginning their versions of that, and so we sent a couple young performers over there who were, who were probably more blessed than were a blessing, but even though, even so, it shaped their lives wonderfully. So, yeah, so that's how we, that's how we stayed connected over the years, and and then we would touch base every once in a while, both very busy in our work um, and we, I think we have almost the same background.

Hector Ramirez:

You know, when I left y1 and I went to london not knowing what to do with my acting and things, and I really wanted to just give it all up, you know, because I didn't see any future for me in that, and I landed in london. Uh, in the, the art center group in London, which was led by Nigel Goodwin, and Nigel Goodwin had been with Francis Schaeffer in his community. The closest I got to Schaeffer was coming to the La Prix one summer and finding out that they had closed for that summer Timing for the years so, but it was through through Nigel Goodwin that.

Hector Ramirez:

So I began to be part. It was Nigel Goodwin, cliff Richard and another guy. They founded the Art Center Group in London, okay, and they would meet, I think it was every week or every two weeks, had discussion groups and many things going on. So I landed right there in the midst of the whole thing and that is the tool, somehow that God used to help me to see what to do with my theatre and my acting. And so Nigel Gooding just embraced me and we spent some time discussing and talking and he and God spoke to me you have to go back to what I gave you, and so can you unpack that a bit more, hector, because I know there's going to be artists listening to this who may be struggling at the place you were struggling all those years ago.

Darrow Miller:

Can you share a little bit more about what was going on inside of you?

Hector Ramirez:

yeah, you know, I uh, in y1 we were just doing, you know, little pieces for the streets or schools, colleges, and then the toy makers and all these kind of things, uh, but there was the sense that nobody told you that theater or dance or music was wrong for Christians. But somehow there was something there which didn't encourage you to take the whole thing as a professional actor or a professional dancer seriously. So the idea was that it was good as long as you use it for evangelism. And so I just didn't know what to do with that, because deep inside I felt there may be something here which I don't completely see yet, but I am not completely happy with this.

Hector Ramirez:

And then it was when I met these people in London Nigel and all these other people and having discussions with them, and then when I began to read Francis Schaeffer, art and Bible, his book Art and Bible, and Rukemacher and his book on Art Needs no Justification and some other books. But I began to understand that there is much more to art than evangelism. And that began to work slowly, and I think I read so many books you know, cs Lewis also helped me a lot to find out some things, chesterton also and just by reading these people I began to understand there is much more to art than just evangelism. And that gave me some freedom in my in my mind, and I said, oh, my goodness, there's so many things we can do here.

Hector Ramirez:

And that's when I began to, you know, went back to spain and began to put together my theater company, which was called aslan aslan theater company I don't know st louis, of course and uh, so it just. God began to help me understand that there is a nature of the creative gift according to the Bible, which many times it doesn't have a lot to do with denominations or even some doctrinal approaches from the Bible, but there is a way of understanding what the nature, the creative gift is all about from the Bible when you go there. And you know, of course, louis and Schaeffer with his book Art and Bible. They had talked a lot about that and this is the way that God, you know, helped me to find out what to do with my art.

Jeremiah Enna:

Yeah, very um. I would say that Hector and I had a similar experience in that I was trained in the arts. I got my education at UCLA in theater. At the end of that, I hated theater. But I wasn't.

Jeremiah Enna:

I wasn't a Christian really. I grew up in a Christian home but was not connected. And so then I moved to Europe and became a Christian, which I have discovered on its own was I think I'm one of four people who got saved in Europe. You know, it's so close. I can't tell you how many times people say you became a christian in europe and I did um, so I came to it the same way with well, how does this work? How do you connect these things? So similar to you? I had to and and schaefer's books. How should we then live? Yeah, his trilogy. They were instrumental. And then ellis pot. Potter was huge because he graciously held my hand through the process, but Mona came to it much more organically and how it should be.

Darrow Miller:

I'd love to hear Mona's story there.

Jeremiah Enna:

She didn't need to crash and burn first, like the rest of us, I mean.

Mona Enna:

I grew up in an extremely non-christian family where my father was actually anti-christian and my mother had grown up in a christian family but then fell away, and who was too scared to say anything, you know, that would oppose my father. So, uh and I, I grew up extremely involved in the arts. You know, dance theater. My father was a painter. I was doing very much individual arts. And so then, when I became a Christian, I just didn't have that baggage of like why is this, you know? Why should this be a problem, you know?

Mona Enna:

Because I can just do what I want you know what's the lesson there Mona.

Darrow Miller:

Yeah exactly.

Mona Enna:

So my pastor, who was an amazing, amazing, oh actually he still is.

Jeremiah Enna:

He is. He is an amazing Johan Kandelien, johan Kandelin, johan.

Mona Enna:

Kandelin, and he was really the one who then came to me when I was a 15 year old ballet dancer and said why don't you dance for Jesus? And I was like okay, you know why not. I didn't know. There was nobody who was doing it, there was no dance in the church, in the Lutheran church in Finland or anywhere else either, and he was just well, why don't you do something for this? Next, you know, gathering, and here's some money and get some costumes. You know, I was like okay.

Mona Enna:

So I got some friends and we started doing it, and then the rest is history. That's how everything sort of started, but I never had that conflict within me of that. Why that? Why should there be a conflict?

Jeremiah Enna:

he. He bound together at the same time as her faith began, when she was at 14. She becomes a christian and he immediately just bound. Who she was and everything God gave her to do already flowed with her faith, and that that was the way. That's the way to do it, folks and I did feel.

Mona Enna:

Like you know, as I grew in my faith, I did feel this like incredible draw towards wanting to glorify the Lord through the arts. I mean to the point that at times it would be painful where I would be begging the Lord.

Luke Allen:

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Darrow Miller:

Mona, could you speak for a moment to any pastors who may be listening now or in the future to this podcast, or young seminarians who want to be pastors who want to be pastors? Just take a moment and speak to them from your heart about what your pastor did for you and why he did that.

Mona Enna:

I think that you know, christians are needed in every single field, because every single field in society needs evangelists and specifically to be involved with, with, with people directly.

Mona Enna:

And I think what my pastor did for me, like he's, he saw to the core and I believe it was through the by the Holy Spirit, who I was and he saw, like what you know, how God had gifted me and the fact that that he, um, he understood that the Lord had given me those gifts and I said he could empower me to go into the world glorifying him and I, all the young people out there you know they should know that they, whatever they are gifted in you know it might be medicine, it might be you know writing, it might be journalism or whatever you know encourage them to go out there, encourage them in their gift, encourage them to glorify god encourage them to to bring their faith and to work at combining their faith, biblical reality, with their industry.

Jeremiah Enna:

Like, don't just leave church on Sunday and go into the journalism world and just follow it, but go in with the Lord by your side and work at testing the ideas. You know why I feel like I'm doing a promo for you guys.

Darrow Miller:

Why should?

Hector Ramirez:

we do that because ideas have consequences. There you go, yeah, absolutely yeah. And if I may say something there, uh, I think it's also important to to help christians to understand the importance of using the gift that god has given you. But also, pastors need to understand that they don't have to tell the artist how to do the job or what to paint or what choreography to produce or these kind of things. You know, sometimes the problem, I find, is that pastors want to tell artists how they should do their work. Pastors want to tell artists how they should do their work, and I mean you wouldn't?

Hector Ramirez:

think about telling a doctor how to do an operation, or an advocate how to build a building you know, or any other body you know, but somehow there is a sense that they have authority to tell an artist what to do. I don't know why, but there's something there and I think that that's a problem, because I mean, if you don't know architecture, you cannot give any advice to the architect. That's what to do. And if you're not a dancer or an actor or a musician, how can you give advice as to what you should be doing? So I think there is this.

Hector Ramirez:

For some reason, there is a prejudice there that says that art is bad. So you have to be careful with art, not architecture, not medicine, but art. So I think that's something that pastors need to be aware of also careful in not, you know, not getting into something they shouldn't. You know. And I think disciple is very important. It's probably the most important thing, you know discipling young people to be faithful Christians who love the Bible, love God, and then just give them the freedom to be able to fulfill the calling in the way God called them to do it, but don't give them recipes. That's how you should do it and things like that.

Mona Enna:

Actually, one incredible thing that my pastor did too was that and here I'm a teenager and all of my friends who are, you know, doing this with me, I mean they're just between like 15 and 18 years old, and one year he rented the city theater and said, why don't you guys produce a Easter production? And we're like, ok, this is great. Of course we. I mean, I had no idea then how incredible that was. You know, I had no understanding. I thought, ok, great idea. Then how incredible that was. You know, I had no understanding. I just thought, okay, great, let's do it. You know, but uh, even though I never um, the church that I belonged to was very high church, lutheran church, and we never danced in church, but I, for me, it wasn't a problem. I was like, okay, this is the liturgical service. I mean, if there's no, it never bothered me, he just found all these other opportunities to guide me in well and providing, providing the venue yeah, yeah, and he understood and understands, I would go.

Jeremiah Enna:

A bigger issue, rather than just the arts, is that he understood what biblical evangelism really was, that it's not getting a commitment or getting someone to say a prayer, but it's the whole life evangelism. Then we have to see all of life redeemed in every sector and speak the gospel in word and deed and in excellence and all those ways. So Johan understood that. So he was just releasing a lot of people into the community in all their sectors. That's where you're going to have the effect, more than just a sermon on Sunday.

Jeremiah Enna:

If I was to say anything to encourage pastors, it's like you know, take the false burden off your shoulders. You are not going to evangelize the world through your sermon alone. And get behind everyone in your congregation and, you know, translate the gospel to their world, help them do that. In the case of Johan, he just said he just said why don't you do that? And then and he was willing to live in the absolute mystery and the risk of what he had just unleashed with a bunch of teenagers so many of them were who were not even Christian- no, they weren't Christian, but they became Christian.

Jeremiah Enna:

Yeah, so Mona was the Christian, but some were and some weren't and he was fine with that.

Darrow Miller:

What you have just described is what we at the DNA call the Monday church and most of us just think of the Sunday church and the pastor is the pastor of the Sunday church. But it sounds like Johan understood that the church was the church on Monday and not just Sunday and he was to equip and release his congregation to be the Monday church, to go into every area of the society as Christians and connect the work that they did with the coming of the kingdom of God. That's right Yep. There was a great.

Jeremiah Enna:

About a year or so ago, finnish magazine did an article on Mona. It was a Christian magazine and the journalist one of the questions what was it? It was something like is dance, is God interested in dance? Or something like that. Or do you remember the question? It had to do with something. Like you know, dance is kind of an odd ball for a lot of people and how is dance is? How is god interested in dance? And mona's question was great, or answer was great because she just said is there any area of life that god is not interested in? Like you know, we've got to quit creating these little religious zones that are safe and just go. You know what he loves. He's interested in it all, and we can distort every area of life and we can redeem it.

Mona Enna:

So I mean, we can even distort the bible.

Jeremiah Enna:

So we distort the bible, we misuse it. So we need a lot of help. But but god is interested. So if you're young out there and you have a passion for something that god gave you a gifting in, or even an interest that's at the beginning, he is interested in going into that with you. You don't have to lay a bumper you don't have to put a bumper sticker on it. Uh, you know that god loves it. He is with you in it.

Hector Ramirez:

Yeah, that's great, very well said my son, danny, asked me and told me once, daddy, I, I don't feel, I want to be a missionary. And I said, danny, you don't have to do anything. I said, danny, you don't have to do anything, all you have to do is to ask God what is it that he has for you? Maybe he calls you to be a pastor, and you have to be a pastor, but maybe he calls you to be an artist, a musician, a painter, a doctor. So what you need to know is to know what is it that God gave me as a passion? What is the passion that God gave me? What is my calling in life? And then you go ahead and do it, but you don't have to think you have to be a missionary to serve god yeah I mean, we serve god in any way.

Hector Ramirez:

You know, as an architect, as a medical doctor, as a builder. You said god in everything we do. That's what the bible says. You know whether we eat or drink, you know, do everything to the glory of god. So I told him, danny, well, you just need to find out what is it. You know whether we eat or drink. You know, do everything to the glory of God. So I told him, danny, well, you just need to find out what is it you know and what is it that you like doing? What is it that you enjoy? And just ask God. You know, god, is this what you call me to do? And if he says yes, just go ahead and do it, don't think anymore.

Jeremiah Enna:

That's right.

Darrow Miller:

He'll be with you. Hector, when we talked a few weeks ago, you told us about the heart that God has given you for the postmodern generation and this play that you have designed to speak prophetically to that generation. Can you share a little bit about what's on your heart with that? And then, when you're through, I'd like to hear from Mona and Jeremiah what is God putting on your heart in this season of your lives? So, hector, maybe you could start.

Luke Allen:

Yeah, and before you do that, hector, I just wanted to say thanks for explaining that to us how to use art in a postmodern world a few weeks ago. That was really impactful for me. It was the way you explained how, when you move from a modern world where there's a high emphasis on truth and human reason to the postmodern world that essentially rejects those entirely and is purely about feelings and emotions, that as Christians, when we're trying to reach that world now, the postmodern world, we need to change our tactics a little bit. In a modern world, we can lead with truth or reason when we're talking to people. Now, in this postmodern world, it really is more effective to lead with goodness or beauty. Obviously, you don't want to get rid of truth. You can't have beauty or goodness without truth, but leading with beauty, I think, is you just opened my eyes to that in a fresh way when you were explaining that a few weeks ago, and for that reason I'm excited to hear you answer this question.

Hector Ramirez:

Yeah, I think that's a very important point understanding we don't live in a sort of rational modern world anymore. We're in a postmodern, irrational world right now, and that's very sad to say and to face that fact that you see people now having discussions which are completely irrational. They have nothing to do with reason, nothing to do even with science. A man says he's a woman and we have to accept it and believe that he's right because he says so. So we have to understand that we don't live in an irrational modern world anymore. We live in an irrational, emotional world where everything is about emotions, feelings and opinions, that's all. Truth is not there anymore. Is the time of post truth now? Truth doesn't count anymore.

Hector Ramirez:

So how are we going to reach, as Christians, a society like that? Has God run out of ideas? No, god has just got to some run out of ideas. He has ideas to reach humanity in every place they find themselves. So art is an absolutely beautiful tool to be able to do that and a very powerful tool to do that, because art doesn't speak to reason, emotions and imagination. That's what art is all about.

Hector Ramirez:

So this is why God can use music and dance and theatre to open doors that cannot be opened in any other way. So this is why we believe in using the music that we have we're working on right now, and in the music what we try to do is we try to address all the issues going on in our society right now, mainly the issue of democracy and how democracies can rise and be destroyed. And I was telling Jeremiah that one of the sentences that inspired me in the musical is John Adams sentence about the Constitution of America. He said this Constitution was written I don't remember the exact words but this Constitution was written for good and religious people, but it wouldn't work for any other kind of people, something like that. So it is all to do with the values and principles and ethical behavior and nothing to do with ideologies or politics or these kind of things which is going to be the solution for the world in which we live right now.

Hector Ramirez:

So this is what we try to portray in the musical. Is, what is it important in the situation in which we are right now? And provide a platform for people to be able to reflect, to think about the issues of life in a normal, rational way, without being aggressive, without fighting for ideas. We live in a democracy where people are free to say whatever they want to say and we should be able to handle that, to listen to somebody who doesn't have the same opinion as I do and have an enriching conversation with that person. We can all learn from one another. But we don't live in that in that point of time anymore. We live in a completely different world.

Hector Ramirez:

So the musical tries to provide a platform for people to get into reasonable discourse. You know, just reflect about what is going on in our society, you know, and relax a little bit and laugh a little bit also, and through doing that you can relax and maybe process ideas and think what is going on. So this is what we are trying to do with the musical. It's just open the way. You cannot preach through through a musical, but you can open a door and provide a platform for people to be able to see things in a different way yeah, protective and and what is the name of the musical?

Darrow Miller:

again, hector.

Hector Ramirez:

So it's called a animal talk, and it's animals talking about human behavior. So it's written as a myth, as a Greek myth, where animals get the ability to think and reason every 1,000 years. So when they begin to use their capacity to think and reason, the first thing that comes to their minds is that human beings must be perfect, because if they have this ability to think and reason and process imaginations and ideas and beauty and form and all these kind of things, they must be perfect. They must not have any problems Until they slowly begin to realize that humans are not behaving completely morally correct, neither are they using reason in the way they thought they should be used. So they begin to talk about what is going on in society and through their reasoning and contrasting what is going on, things begin to be seen of what is going on in our society and the issues of democracy and these kind of things come also into play as the play develops and takes place thank you, hector.

Darrow Miller:

Uh, mona and jeremiah. What is it that god's put on your heart in this season?

Jeremiah Enna:

you know, this is a multi-faceted season for us. One is because Mona is always creating new work, so there's some new things there, and then I'm the executive director, so I'm kind of planning the future and different things, and we're looking at building a facility, a substantial facility for Kansas City, and so I would say that and Mona can speak for herself and her projects coming up. But I would say what's on our heart is we have an opportunity in our little city to have a seat at the table of encouraging our culture here, speaking into the ideas that dominate in a culture and at least offering biblical reality through our stories that we tell and the songs that we sing and the programs that we offer. And so that would be. I don't know if that's clear, all of that's clear. What's next? But I think it really moves to the area of ideas.

Jeremiah Enna:

Right, I think when you're in the arts as long as Hector and Mona and I have been you know you, you take ideas very seriously and the arts are what give flesh to an idea. We tell a story that helps us look at it and hopefully they can be a story that all people can look at and that the Lord can draw us to truth and what real beauty is, as opposed to exclusive groups. So I'm hoping that we're going to be presenting more artists, more work and helping train more artists to think this way, because God will speak to them. What to make? But to open our hearts and minds to reality, god's reality and biblical reality. If, if I can start there, then the world is my oyster and I will experience the value of the gifts God's given me. Did that make sense?

Darrow Miller:

Very much so, and part of what I heard you say is the body of work that the two of you have done over these years has been towards the city, and the city has embraced what you have been doing, and now you are an elder at the gate of the city and have a place to sit and talk with other leaders of the city, and that's a tremendous position to be in.

Jeremiah Enna:

Yeah, that is what's happening, and I think part of it was, you know, getting excellent teaching, excellent training when we were younger and understanding that you know I remember first, when I first moved to Sweden, I would hear conversations in language I didn't understand.

Jeremiah Enna:

For example, Christian art must be excellent. And I was so confused I thought is there someone saying it should be terrible? I mean, I didn't know, and so I learned more about that. And another phrase I heard that was strange was we're going to take our city back for Jesus. And I was confused.

Luke Allen:

And I'm like did he lose it? You know what's going on here.

Jeremiah Enna:

And I think that understanding humanity and life, that we're first we're a part of the family of man and that when, when I become a christian, I don't leave that family right, I think I become a subset of that family, and so that has made it much easier for mona and I to be a part of kansas city. We love this city, we have met all kinds of people and we're not trying to be the only game in town, but we appreciate other people's work and we dialogue about work. You know, and sometimes I've been, you know, very asked, very hard questions about other people's work, but it doesn't mean I don't value them right. So, yeah, so we're finding our seat at the table of this community, and Kansas Citians have been extremely gracious to us and so, you're right, they have been very supportive and so that's encouraging.

Darrow Miller:

I want to highlight something else you just said for those who are listening. As Christians, we are part of a family, the Christian family, and it's global and it's absolutely wonderful. But there is a larger family and that is the, as CS Lewis would say, the children, the sons of Adam and the daughters of Eve. And the larger family is made up of image bearers of God who may or may not know Christ or become Christians, but we are related to them as image bearers of God and we need to have that larger perspective as we go through life. So I just wanted to highlight that, because that was very profound what you said.

Jeremiah Enna:

Yeah, go ahead.

Mona Enna:

No, I think something that's on my heart, has been on my heart is that I think the world needs beauty, that leading with beauty is probably the most effective way to reach people, because beauty unites us. And also, seeing like what? Um, I have the opportunity to go and see. There's a very high level ballet competition that happens in kansas city. It's actually an international competition, but it comes to kansas city every year. And there's these young people, you know, between 15 and 18, and they, in addition to performing a classical solo, they can also perform a contemporary solo, which basically can be their own choreography. And seeing these contemporary works, it's absolutely incredible. Uh, 99 of them are hopeless, depressing, angst and angst ridden. The costume is very dull, there's not much color and you just wonder what is it? What? What is making the? You know, what is this?

Jeremiah Enna:

these are young people, you know young people living in the wealthiest nation in the world, with opportunities driven off trees and this is what's coming out of their soul yeah and it's the same even in the professional scene.

Mona Enna:

It's either like hyper sexualized or it's the same. It's just hopeless. Not much color in the costuming, not much creativity. You know, I feel like the atmosphere in the professional dance scene is kind of like does not encourage you to be different. It's, you know, like this is popular right now, so this is what everybody should be doing. So it's reproducing something similar that somebody else has done, and I just feel really called to create work that's beautiful, that's different, that's hopeful and it's still very.

Jeremiah Enna:

And, darrow, you and Marilyn have seen Mona's work. We're not talking about shallow surface. We're not talking about shallow surfaces. We're not talking about just happy dances all the time. Not fluff, not decoration.

Jeremiah Enna:

Right, not decoration Absolutely, but rooted in reality, addressing real things, but with hope. And maybe, if there's young artists listening, I would say one thing that I observed when I was young. I moved to Sweden. I meet these Christians, we start making things together.

Jeremiah Enna:

The thing that came out to me was oh, there are certain areas, levels of expression that Christians will not go to because it's too dark, it's glorifying darkness, it's, it's displaying darkness at a level that we shouldn't do that, so we will never go there. But we have the market on hope, because Jesus actually gives us a future and his integrity gives us a foundation for hope. And so that had a huge effect on me, because I want I really connect to this younger generation. I know I'm almost 60, but I really connect to that desire that they talk about authenticity and I don't think that's the right word, but I think I understand what they're hungering for.

Jeremiah Enna:

You know they don't want a plastic life, and so that's where I was at, and Christianity is what brought me to not being plastic. You know, it brought my life together into one life, not three or four lives, and so I think hope is huge. You know that we can share that and help people find hope again, and Mona's work, not just on the stage but during the week, during the rehearsal process, is infused with bringing hope to life. So how she treats her dancers, the dignity with which she talks to them, the dignity with which she helps them navigate their lives in the arts, all of that is a part of what she does, so I think that the issue of beauty is so important in the times in which we live if we remember that.

Hector Ramirez:

you know, the post-modernism began really with the artists, and the issue of ugliness was raised in the 18th century as an ideal, which is really strange. Artists and philosophers begin to talk about ugliness as an ideal to reach, and then, of course, we get into the 19th century, all the different avant-garde movements of art and the beginning of the 20th century.

Hector Ramirez:

it's all destruction, it's all looking for a way of escaping a sense of ugliness and it brought us to the place where we are right now, where anything can be beautiful, even the most ugly thing hanging in a museum right now, in the Prado Museum, for example, in Madrid, which I mean you could get that and throw it into the rubbish, but people are paying money for that kind of things. So, beauty, emphasizing the issue of beauty right now, of harmony, of order and all the different elements that are necessary to bring something beautiful, I think we need to go back to that. We need to go back to maybe not in the classical way, because right in the postmodern time, but we need to find ways of going back to the principles of life.

Hector Ramirez:

You know the principles of beauty. What does it make it a beautiful painting? There are many things we need to take into account. What does it make a beautiful choreography? There are many things you have to take into account. But since we live in an irrational postmodern society, well, you don't need anything. We just need to move your bodies and do whatever you feel like jump and move and go, without any order or structure or anything like that. Of course there is place for those things, order or structure or anything like that. Of course there is place for those things, because, you know, but pain is part of life, disorder is part of life, madness is part of life. So we're supposed to deal with those issues, but don't make madness like the only issue yes, exactly in life.

Jeremiah Enna:

Or the goal, I see what. Or the goal, yeah, yeah, man you have the goal. I see.

Darrow Miller:

What I just heard was there's a connection between beauty and hope.

Jeremiah Enna:

I think so. I think that I mean there's aesthetic beauty, but even that, I think, is rooted in God's design. I mean there's aesthetic beauty, but even that, I think, is rooted in God's design, and then understanding there is a creator is hopeful. And when your life is dark, you know and you're having hard times, and yet you see a sunset. That's beautiful.

Darrow Miller:

There's something about that that elevates you, that touches your soul.

Jeremiah Enna:

That's right it speaks to something deeper than just what your current understanding is, right now, of your struggle.

Hector Ramirez:

And you're talking about the issue of beauty in art, but beauty is everywhere. Yeah.

Hector Ramirez:

Everywhere we look. I mean look, look outside. You know the trees, the sky, and I just spent just one little second. You know there's so much beauty there. Yeah, so much complication to make all those connections and to function in a scientific, biological way. But also they all look beautiful yeah so I mean you walk in the streets that you see a human being walking, you know a beautiful girl walking you know, and I mean beauty is everywhere. Look at our bodies, you know.

Jeremiah Enna:

But, like you said, if we get unhinged, unhooked from reality, all of a sudden death becomes beautiful, absolutely. You know, the dark things get twisted because and I and Daryl, this is just my postulating, but I think the reason why so many artists are drawn to darkness and hopelessness is because it feels it connects with how they feel, it connects with what they experience in life and they don't want to move towards actual beauty because that feels false to them. If I acknowledge something good, then I will be lying right. Then I have to acknowledge that there is goodness in the world. But if I really am alone and quiet, I don't feel good inside. I don't feel like I'm a source of goodness. I don't know where the source of goodness is. So I don't want to do it in my art, in what I create. I don't want to lie. Yeah.

Luke Allen:

I have a question that I would love to hear your guys' thoughts on. It's something I've I've been chewing on this for years, really, and it's it's this there's a gap for me between, um, you know, here at the DNA, on, ideas have consequences. We talk a lot about how to apply biblical principles into our lives, into every area of life, but a lot of times I have a hard time with the actual application step of okay, we have these amazing ideas, hope, beauty, you know. But then the step of how do we now create? You know, for you guys, it's, how do you create art where it promotes those virtues of the kingdom, without making it overly preachy? You know, we've all seen that and it feels like someone's cramming ideas down my throat.

Luke Allen:

Good art makes people think, it makes people, you know, the art inspires them so much that they want to learn more about it. They want to learn about the artist, they want to learn about what that person was trying to represent. But to me there's this disconnect. But to me there's this disconnect I have a hard time with the rich ideas and then the actual art form that is still prioritizing excellence first and foremost, so that people enjoy the art and then want to learn about it. What's the process there you guys go through? I would love to hear more about that. I know that's a big question.

Hector Ramirez:

I think it was CS Lewis who talked about a Christian artist. I think it was a Christian artist who used to paint landscapes and he was never happy with his work because he thought, well, I'm just painting landscapes, but I'm not making a big statement about the existence of God or doing evangelism in this. And then the artist dies and he goes to heaven and God meets him and he tells him OK, let's go for a walk in heaven. And he takes the artist on a walk in heaven and he finds that there is a museum in heaven and God says OK, let's go inside. And God takes the artist inside the museum and there he finds his landscapes hanging in the museum. And the artist says why, god, are these my paintings hanging here? And God says God says, well, my son, because when you painted you were reading into my own imagination. And that's such a beautiful idea.

Hector Ramirez:

Everything God created is beautiful. There is nothing that God created which is ugly. Ugliness is the consequence of sin. Everything God created is beautiful. So if the artist is connected and real and honest with his work, he has no other way he's going to meet beauty. Michelangelo used to say with his great sculptures of the Renaissance times you know when people, people said, oh maestro, the wonderful words you have been able to make. And he would say, no, I didn't do them, they were there. All I did was to take away those things. When we're not making it possible for the work to come alive, it is there. So I think all the artist needs to be is to be honest, real, sincere to the work, not to anything else, because this is how God created everything. Everything is beautiful when you look at it. So you're going to be somehow. You know C CS Lewis used the word contamination in a positive way.

Hector Ramirez:

You can be contaminated by that, you know, by God's idea. So this is how I'd like to encourage Christian artists Don't get hung up on the religious issue. This is what CS Lewis used to say also Don't get hung up in that. Be honest, be real, be truthful in your relationship with god, in your relationship with nature, with the world, with the people around you, and then create anything that comes into your emotions and feelings. You know, just follow the idea, just be honest to the idea and forget about religion. If you, you love God, you want to please God in everything you do, wouldn't you? So why be stuck in the religious idea there?

Hector Ramirez:

So I think this is why I love CS Lewis, because he was so good in explaining these kind of things and helping us to see that life is so complicated. You know, I think as Christians we want to make life simple. So we explain two by two is four, you know, yeah, but there's geometrics and algebra and all those kind of things. And when you get there, oh my goodness, two by two is not four anymore. But Christians say, well, if you pray, god will heal you. Yeah, that happens sometimes, but sometimes it doesn't happen. And some people say, well, well, maybe you were in sin or whatever. Anyway, god doesn't do. I tell my son God doesn't do mathematics. He's into far more than geometry and all those kind of things you know, which we will never be able to reach. So yeah, just follow God and be faithful and honest to you and your wife and your family and life and everything else.

Mona Enna:

I don't know if I'm answering that question correctly, but I'm going to go for it anyway. I just wanted to share the process of one of the works I'm getting ready to restage right now. It's called Suspended Grace. It's the story of story.

Jeremiah Enna:

This is a biblical story.

Mona Enna:

This is a biblical story. It's the adulterous woman in the Bible that the religious leaders are getting ready to stone, and then Jesus comes in and says whoever's without sin, you know, cast the first stone. And originally, when I created the work, you know, I was thinking about like, yeah, like people feel so bad for the woman, like the poor woman and all these horrible people who are, you know, getting ready to stone her, which is, of course, it's horrible.

Jeremiah Enna:

I was gonna say it is horrible, but I mean, oh, she's what you know?

Mona Enna:

like they feel so bad for her. And then I started just thinking about it, and so I created a work, which it's, of course, imaginary, but what led to this moment? Like the most, the biggest part of the production is about what led to this, and fireplaces represent the family, so there's three families.

Jeremiah Enna:

Like a circle, like a fire in the Like a campfire A campfire. Like a campfire yeah not fireplaces, but a campfire.

Mona Enna:

yeah, so, and then there's other characters on stage as well, and then this woman comes to town and she starts to, you know, seduce the men and little by little she has a. Really it's all very symbolic. No worries, here nobody's taking their clothes off no, it's all very symbolic. You know you're an adult, you know.

Jeremiah Enna:

There are people who would be worried about it. We worry about Luke's young, impressionable mind.

Mona Enna:

Yes, no, it's all very symbolic. You know, If you're an adult, you know what's happening.

Jeremiah Enna:

But she's seducing the man of town and she's very successful and they go with her.

Mona Enna:

And then what happens is like it's creating tension between the spouses, because the women are sensing that something is not right, and then the tension rises, and the rises, and and then they end up scattering all the rocks on stage. So now, suddenly, this whole stages the families are being destroyed, all right it's moon with rocks, so that it's kind of has this, you know sense of this? Minutes like, looks like desolation, and which then escalates into them wanting.

Mona Enna:

The gossip starts and she becomes the focus. And she becomes the focus and there's this very dramatic judgment scene where they're using the rocks to pound rhythms. You know, on the floor, like they pound the floor with the rocks to make rhythms. You know, on the floor, like they found the floor with the rocks to make this sound. It's very aggressive and then it kind of escalates into them being surrounding her and getting ready to throw this rocks at her, and then Jesus comes in. He draws on in the sand, like the Bible talks about that.

Jeremiah Enna:

And then there's like a special effect that we there's a special effect. That's all we're going to tell you Come and see the ballet and you'll see the special effect. No, you can tell them, I can tell them.

Mona Enna:

But during all the craziness when they were chasing her around, there's actually at each fireplace there are these fake rocks that are made of styrofoam and they look exactly the same, and when they scatter the rocks they have to know which ones are the fake ones and which ones are the real ones. So when.

Jeremiah Enna:

Jesus comes in, the woman is circled by the townspeople, all holding rocks high up in this in the air getting ready to stone her.

Mona Enna:

And and he walks in and they freeze like he stops it from happening but what has happened before this is that there have been a couple of the dancers have gathered the fake ones and they have attached them to these fish lines so that when people get ready to stone her, they're actually all grabbing the fake rocks. And then when jesus says you know, whoever is without sin, cast the first stone, they leave, but the rocks are end up floating in the air around her head. So it's sort of like you deserve this he holds the judgment holds the judgment back.

Mona Enna:

Like I stopped it, you know yeah but if I can, say you can say whatever you want.

Jeremiah Enna:

Well, I'm just gonna say it's so I don't know about. I think other people would identify this. You know, you read a scripture like that and you immediately identify with oh, this poor woman, those evil Pharisees you know, and kind of see the story from that point of view. You would never I would never identify with the Pharisee, of course, because I would never have picked up a rock. But one of the effects of this production is that you just want a stoner by the end of this production. It's like give me a rock. This woman is trouble right Now. Ignore the fact that all the men were trouble and they're leading the pack. You know that they all participate. I mean, you know the judgment is everywhere right, it's just not this adulterous. And so it's very effective at applying the scripture, yeah, to how it's really supposed to. It's supposed to affect us all, not just others, not just the judgers or whatever. It's very effective.

Mona Enna:

So so anyway. So that's just kind of a very, I guess, a practical window into, you know, taking a biblical story and making something but then you're communicating something about it yeah, and then there's other, there's a lot of other stories being created around here, some biblical, some original.

Jeremiah Enna:

Like animal talk is an original idea, right, um? And I would say that, um, I would add to, I would add to part of what Hector described as far as how to do it. Yes, the form shouldn't be the focus. Like you said, a pastor shouldn't tell the painter well, you should only use purple. That's where a religious mind gets a hold of these things. That's where a religious mind gets a hold of these things, so God can transform whatever materials I'm using with whatever it is.

Jeremiah Enna:

That's the beauty of it all, and what we're seeing in our culture today is that the ideas do have consequences. So what I'm feeding my mind, what I'm feeding my imagination and what I'm allowing my imagination to believe to be true, is going to shape what comes out of me. And that is that's where, like a pastor, his greatest support of the artist is his ideas. What biblical reality, what Bible verses are you teaching me properly? You know a good sermon, preferably 15 minutes please, because most artists they're gone after 15 because they're either bored or they're inspired, right, and so I think that you know the ideas come from what I'm feeding my soul, what I see in nature, what I respond to in life, and that's why you have to be careful, so what you are, what you're feeding yourself, intellectually, spiritually, relationally.

Darrow Miller:

Well, I want to thank you guys for joining us. I know that you have a hard stop coming, but it's just a pleasure to hear you dialogue and to share your dialogue with the.

Darrow Miller:

Ideas have Consequences, audience, but thank you so much for your lives.

Darrow Miller:

Thank you so much for the work you're doing for your vision.

Hector Ramirez:

Darrell, can I just give the last idea I had in my mind? Yeah, sure.

Hector Ramirez:

I think the world needs Christians who are able to somehow, on the stage, turn the upside down. You know art can do that, yeah, you know, so that people see things in a different perspective that they had never seen it before in life. This is what the art, the good artist, is called to do. So don't go for simple, easy ideas. You know God loves doing that. The Lord Jesus Christ loves putting things upside down to people. When he is invited by a Pharisee to a home to have dinner with this highly respected follower of the law, pharisee, and then a lady comes into the home and she's a prostitute and everybody knows, and she kneels down and begins to wash Jesus' feet and she's kissing his feet and the Pharisee is saying don't you know who this woman is? I mean, didn't the Lord Jesus Christ know he's turning the whole thing upside down, to break the world to this religious Pharisee who cannot see anymore because of his religion. And this is what the world needs today Artists who are able to put things on the stage which are not just simple, you know beginning and end, and this kind of thing which has all been.

Hector Ramirez:

It's good. I mean, this is how God designed things, but sometimes God himself turns things upside down. You know, beginning and end and this kind of thing which has all been, it's good, I mean, this is how god designed things. But sometimes god himself turns things upside down. You know, with, with, uh, to get our attention to eve. You know, when eve caught, uh, when satan caught eve, you know, and, and she somehow fell. You know, the satan may have thought I called God by surprise hmm, what does God do?

Hector Ramirez:

he turns the whole thing upside down. What does he do? The same woman who you made for is going to be the mother of that who is going to crush your head. He turned everything upside down, yeah, so I think this is what we need to learn from the Bible as Christian artists, and I think our society needs this so much Things that can make people shake in their seats a little bit. And, anyway, that's the last thought I have in my mind. Thank you all.

Luke Allen:

Yeah, any more final thoughts, jeremiah and Mona, before we wrap up.

Jeremiah Enna:

I don't think so. I mean it's an exciting time, partly because, you know, all the systems, in our Western world at least, are being turned upside down and soians have a great opportunity to go in with truth, shake it up, like you said, draw people to goodness and truth and beauty and be very, live a very purposeful and fruitful life in this. But it's going to take pioneer hearts and passionate people and willingness to kind of give it all for God. But it's a very exciting time for people who are artists so thank you for having us yeah, thank you all.

Darrow Miller:

And Jeremiah and Mona Marilyn sends her love to you.

Jeremiah Enna:

Yeah, thank you Give her our love and it was brought up earlier because she's a doula. She wasn't Mona's doula, but we met you guys before I first was born and I think we called her repeatedly and emailed her, so she's you know, she's affected our family in very big ways. Good.

Luke Allen:

Yeah, well, yeah, we need to start wrapping up that. I really enjoyed this discussion. Thank you all so much for joining us today. It was an absolute honor to hear from you guys. And, yeah, I, I I'm leaving this discussion very encouraged.

Luke Allen:

Um, I'm no professional artist, but I love art and I love to create it. And, yeah, in the, in the crazy world we live in, where ugliness is being celebrated, it seems like oftentimes in art I know, in you know, just in painting, my favorite form of art there's a lot of ugliness that's being celebrated. As Christians, we have an amazing opportunity right now just to create beauty and just let it speak for itself and it will shine and it'll stick out and it'll cause people to question. Um, and through that, we can point to the creator of beauty, who is God and, um, hopefully, catch more people's attention. Art has a beautiful way of catching people's attention, catching us off guard and unifying us.

Luke Allen:

As you said, mona, I love how art does that. It's, uh, such a powerful thing. So for all of you who aren't listening, who are not artists, I hope this discussion still encourages you and hopefully you can find the artists in your life and really encourage them or find, you know your own creativity that God's given you. I think all of us have been created to be creators just because we are image bearers of God, so we all have a chance to be artists in a way. Jeremiah and Mona, quickly, where can people find out more about your?

Jeremiah Enna:

work. You can go to culturehousecom and find links to all our programs, including the dance company. Their website is storling S-T-O-R-L-I-N-G danceorg.

Luke Allen:

Okay, great. And then, Hector, remind me of where people can find your work as well.

Hector Ramirez:

It's arsvitalis, which is A-R-S-V-I-T-A-L-I-S dot E-S.

Luke Allen:

Excellent, thank you. And yeah, we'll have all of those linked in the in the episode page which you can find down in the show notes. Also, if you'd like to read a book about what we were talking about today and Christian's important calling to be in the arts, darrell Miller's newest book, a Call for Balladeers, will also be on that episode page. So again, thank you all for listening to another episode here on ideas have consequences. There there's a book. I love it.

Darrow Miller:

Thank you, thank you so bye, thank you guys, until next time.

Jeremiah Enna:

Yes, amen, say hi to Maryland.

Darrow Miller:

Okay, I will.