Ideas Have Consequences

Learning to Critique & Celebrate Foreign Cultures with George Oliveira

April 30, 2024 • Disciple Nations Alliance • Season 2 • Episode 19

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When we cross cultural borders to serve others, it is essential for us to learn when to celebrate cultural diversity and when to critique it. This can be tricky! We may instinctively seek to align everything to our cultural norms–but doing so can dangerously lead to the erasure of beautifully unique and diverse elements of foreign culture that bring glory to God. At the same time, there are things within every culture that should be rightly critiqued. Long-time DNA friend, Pastor George Oliveira shares lessons learned as a cross-cultural pastor. He emphasizes the importance of transcending cultural divides with Christian love. He gives us a vision to authentically connect with diverse communities while celebrating our shared humanity under the teachings of Jesus.

Scott Allen:

Welcome again, everybody, to another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. I'm Scott Allen and I am the president of the DNA, and I'm joined today by my team members and friends Luke Allen, dwight Vogt, daryl Miller, and back again with us is our good friend, pastor George Oliveira. Hi, pastor, how are you?

George Oliveira:

Hey Scott, it's really good to be here again.

Scott Allen:

Yeah, I have to call you pastor today because your congratulations on just passing your ordination.

George Oliveira:

Thank you.

Scott Allen:

For the Presbyterian Church. I'm not exactly sure of the full title of the denomination there the group but congratulations on that.

George Oliveira:

Thank you very much.

Scott Allen:

George for those of you who didn't catch our first podcast with George is the senior pastor of Lakewood Bible Presbyterian Church in Lakewood, florida, and we know George as a—.

George Oliveira:

Lakeland, we call it a Lakeland.

Scott Allen:

Forgive me, thank you for the correction. I said Lakewood, lakeland. Yes, okay, you can tell I'm not from Florida. Anyways, george, we know George from our experience with the DNA. He's what we call a kingdomizer, somebody who has gone through our core training and has been impacted by it, has taught it and really represents one of many thousands of people now around the world, by God's grace, who have gone through the training and have been impacted by it. And I think, george, your experience and this is kind of what we want to get into today a little bit is a bit unique because we knew you in Brazil. Get into today a little bit is a bit unique because we knew you in Brazil. George is a native from Brazil, now living in the United States and pastoring a church in the United States, and so your experience in that way is unique, george, although I think it's something that is increasingly common.

Scott Allen:

I was telling the team before you came on that I read a book several years ago that had a real impact on me.

Scott Allen:

It was called the New Christendom, by Jenkins I believe was his name, but he talked about how Christianity over the last particularly 20 years, 20, 30 years has been growing very rapidly in places like Brazil and you know, the global south, we might say places like Nigeria and China and Iran, and I think for most people in the United States that's news because we're not really that aware of it.

Scott Allen:

When we look around at the Church in the West, in the United States, in Europe, we see a Church that has plateaued or, in some cases, shrinking. Or United States in Europe, we see a church that has plateaued or, in some cases, shrinking or, if you're in Europe, shrinking dramatically. And Jenkins, the author of this book, said that the center of Christianity is moving south, just in terms of sheer numbers, but very soon in terms of also influence and leadership. And I think, george, when I think of you, I think you're just one kind of example, I think, of what we're going to see a lot more of people coming from the South, a global South, to the West, to the North, and leading churches and helping to lead the church. And that's kind of what we wanted to talk to you about today a little bit, just your experience moving across culture, because you know, yeah, go ahead.

George Oliveira:

This is something that I hear a lot, though, from Christians, brothers and sisters here in America, and I tell them where I'm from, what I'm doing here. I'm pastoring a church and they look at me whoa, whoa. No, that's nice. We certainly need you, and I get to tell them the blessing that the American missionaries were to Brazil and South America. It's like a way of giving back and honor our brothers that came there. The States has for a long time, been in the country that sending a lot of missionaries. Brazil is always in that uh, with south korea, you know, always fighting for the second place, but also brazil is an ascending nation as well. Um, yes, so we, we, we are grateful that the lord, the lord, works, know he's the Lord of all nations and we are brothers and sisters here working for His glory. So it's such a privilege to have that. You know that difference in different nations that are doing the same mission together, so it's really nice.

Luke Allen:

By the way, dad, the book you're referring to, I believe, is the Next Christendom, and that's by Philip Jenkins and Robert.

Scott Allen:

Fowler Okay, the Next Christendom yeah.

Scott Allen:

Yeah, I recommend everyone read that book because it gives you a perspective on the church and the world. And he's a sociologist, so he's done a lot of research and it's not in the news at all. And he says, in terms of social movements, it's probably one of the most dramatic social movements of the 21st century that nobody knows about just because it's not being covered in the news. The fact that you have more Anglicans in Nigeria than in all of England combined, you know, maybe 10 times over, you know, and that's just one country in Africa. You know, it's just an example of this. And anyways, george, I think of Darrow's.

Scott Allen:

When I went through my experience with this training many years ago, you know, darrow had such an influence on me too, and one of the things that he said that stuck with me is if you want to be a cross-cultural missionary, you have to understand three worldviews. You have to understand the worldview from the culture that you grew up in. What is that dominant worldview? It's shaped you way more than you realize. What's the worldview of the culture that you're going to? You know what is that dominant worldview. And then, thirdly, what's the worldview of the Bible? The Bible has a worldview, right, it has a view of reality, of what it means to be human, of good and evil and everything else.

Scott Allen:

So you have to understand three worldviews and I think the hardest one to understand is your own, because we are in bubbles, right, I mean, we just are raised in it, we swim in it. You know, all day long, all day, we don't have perspective on it until we move outside. And then that's the blessing, it was when you cross a culture, then all of a sudden you get a perspective on it and you get a perspective as well on the culture that you're coming to. Right, because you're coming in as an outsider, so you see things that people that are there don't see. So with that all said, george, yeah, what did you learn? Just as somebody who's moved cross-culturally, what did you learn about your own culture that you didn't see before coming to the United States? How did you learn about the dominant worldview in Brazil? And then, as a follow-up, how did you learn about the dominant worldview in Brazil? And then, as a follow-up, what did you learn about the United?

Darrow Miller:

States Love to hear your thoughts on this. Before you answer that, I want to make an observation, scott, when you said three worldviews, your own cultures which is hard for us to see because it's the fishbowl that we grew up in- the other culture that we're going to, and becomes very that's easier

Scott Allen:

for us to see, because it's different than our own culture.

Darrow Miller:

and then you said the biblical worldview, but you said it as if it's one of many. No, the biblical worldview is the objective worldview. My culturalist view is not the objective one, and neither is the culture's view that we're going to, and I just want to be careful that we don't link there's many worldviews and pick which one you want. No, there's only one reality, one you want. No, there's only one reality, and we need to realize that that reality is described by what God has made, and it's also been described in the scriptures.

Darrow Miller:

Yeah, absolutely and they comport with one another.

Scott Allen:

Absolutely Derek Good clarification, and the biblical worldview is the one that challenges both of these worldviews. The worldview of the world we come from and the worldview that we're going to.

Darrow Miller:

That's right.

Scott Allen:

And this is where a lot of missionaries in the past have made mistakes. They think, hey, I need to get whatever the culture I'm being a missionary in to be more like my home culture. No, the goal is not to get that culture to be more like your home culture, it's to have both cultures be more like the true biblical worldview.

George Oliveira:

George, talk to us here. I was going to say that if you didn't say it, so don't worry.

Scott Allen:

Thank you George.

George Oliveira:

It's interesting because when you say it like that, it's impossible not to compare it's.

George Oliveira:

It's just impossible. But the first time I had that perception was not in the states actually was when, like I was at maybe 20 something year old, and we received a couple from Canada it's Lisa and Nelson and Lisa would challenge us a lot by defining my own culture, because she was outside of the culture and she was telling you know that Brazilians do this and this and this, like whoa. I didn't notice that. Oh, that's true, and I start to reflect more on that. So it's also beneficial for the people in the country to have someone from outside. Whoa, I didn't notice that, I didn't see that it's. It emphasizes things that, um, as we learn, you know, in the corinthial course, about the way the idea is spread, you know some things that, uh, you know the just, oh, just that, that's like that, because that that's the way I learned, or just, and and we start to, you know, think more about those things. And the main difference in terms of religion that I see Brazil and the States is, it's like there is especially what I hear from Americans here in the South is that assumption that every American is a Christian right. So this idea of because you're American, every American's a Christian right. So this idea of because you're American, you're Christian. And in Brazil it's the inheritance of Roman Catholicism, so you're a Catholic because you were born here. And that's what my mom used to say before she was a Christian. She would say, oh, I was a Roman Catholic. Do you go to mass? No, I just was, because that was the reality. And when you study, when you go back to the history of Brazil and you see the inheritance that we have, you can understand more and more why the things that we are the way we are.

George Oliveira:

You know, when the Portuguese came in the 1500s, they would bring that European mentality of you know, we're going to work here, we're going to do this, and they would bring the Jesuits and the priests to catechize people. But the Indians, the Amerindians right, the Indians back then they didn't want to do those things like work in the agriculture or something for them. They could not have them do that, so they had to import more black slave from africa. Can you? Can you see the mix there? It's like the catholicism from europe and the 1500s is right when we have the, the reformation, the protestant reformation, so it was after the counter-reformation that they and the 1500s is right when we have the Reformation, the Protestant Reformation. So it was after the counter-Reformation that they intentionally started sending the Jesuits into the New World.

George Oliveira:

And that's Brazil. And this is the worldview they have. They have this worldview of time, the worldview of goal, of achieving their goals. And the Africans, though, they were, you know, animistic, so they were worshiping energies, they were worshiping their gods, and most of them, in that time, they would change the name of their gods, of the spirits, to the Roman Catholic saints, so they wouldn't be persecuted. So you can see more mixture in the religion. And then you have the Indians, with Tupan, who is God, it's just one God, but this God is over nature and controls everything in nature, and the more they grow, the more they mixture in these ideas of the Roman Catholicism with the animistic worldview, with the spiritual worldview of the Indians. It's a mixture that it kind of results in a freedom of religion or in a way of just being. You know, you live the way you want.

George Oliveira:

We have many religions in the country, brazilians like that, this spirituality, but they impact even today because the way, for example, the African religions of the experience, the way that the Indians and the Africans would see time. They would focus on the past a lot and they would celebrate and they would focus in experience. But the Europeans, they were more focused in goals in what they do. So you see that they're always clashing and fighting. But after more years, the development of religion, we had what is called umbanda In Portuguese. Some people say that it comes from the Portuguese word umbanda one band, one thing together. Some people say that it comes from the Portuguese word uma banda one band, one thing together.

George Oliveira:

This religion, it's like it comes from Candomblé. It's a monotheistic religion that God exists, but God is just way out there. So in order to get to God, you need what they call orixás it's like a spiritual entity that will make the way to God and you need certain emissaries or ambassadors. They call pretovelhos, caboclos, people, that the spirits of the Indians or the Africans from the past. And how do they do their liturgy? They do by music, drums, they do by dancing, by rituals, and they don't care so much about time. It's like, as long as you are really spiritual, as long as you have this transcendent experience and when I first saw that, I remember that I grew up in the Pentecostal movement in Brazil.

Scott Allen:

And just on that, how old is that movement in Brazil? It's not very old is it?

George Oliveira:

No, it's after the Azusa revival, so early 1900s, exactly, yeah.

Scott Allen:

So, on top of everything else that you've explained, you've got that now as a new layer, right.

George Oliveira:

But you can see some of the nuances of our history in that movement. You see a lot of instruments, drums, the rhythms Even if I go, if I'm talking specifically about music, you see minor chords and major chords bringing attention, and the rhythm it would bring them an experience and what many would be naming that as being filled with the spirit, and they start spinning in the spirit in a very similar way that this would happen in the, the, the mixture of religions there. So it's part of I'm not saying that it's all of that, but you have this glossolalia, you have this preaching with low theology and great on relational and great on relational and connections and people would be transcendent. And how did we get here?

George Oliveira:

When I come to the States, I see in Brazil growing up having three-hour services, just fine. Can you imagine that happening in America? Like if the pastor preaches for 35 minutes, oh hey, that's too much. 30 minutes, 25, 20, you know, and I see that you know different perspective of we got to keep going, we got to keep doing the next thing. We're all always busy.

George Oliveira:

Yes, we're going to go to church on Easter, easter or Christmas, but you better not have a service that is more than an hour and 50 minutes because I'll leave. It's it's noon, I'll leave the church. I don't care who's preaching. You know it's kind of that, that perspective preacher is filled with the Spirit or is going in excitement, or oh, that's a great experience. So we got to stay as long as we can to enjoy that. That also in the relationships. You know, meetings for in Brazil like meetings to decide things is different than meetings in America and meetings for hospitality you receive people at your home like okay, birthday party is here. Actually they like starts two and finishes at four and at four everybody leaves. It's like leaves.

Scott Allen:

It's amazing were you surprised by that? That was something that you didn't expect. No, in Brazil you linger until you can't stand.

George Oliveira:

You're really tired. It's like no, no don't go, you know.

George Oliveira:

But it's funny that you have these perspectives. I'm not saying that one is bad and the other is good, uh, in essence. But what is? What is the the challenge here of uh having an spiritual account, encounter with God in liturgy? Uh, because biblically we have um, the God's commands, when we gather as the, as people, to sing, you know, spiritual songs, to pray, to preach the word. But the way that we do that, it's not necessary. We have to do like the Israelites did, or we have to do like the Africans do, like the Chinese do, like America. Do we all express parts of our culture and parts of our history in our liturgy of services? Right, some churches, of course, they don't have that space to do that because of persecution, and I think that's a different situation there. But when we, when we're talking about different churches doing that, how is the american uh liturgy or expression of worship, um aligned to the scriptures? And how do we receive more from others, from other cultures that are not um, that can benefit us relationally to God and to ourselves?

Scott Allen:

Yeah, I think your example of time is a good example, george. So you noticed that when you came to the United States in particular, that the United States has a high value on time promptness. The United States has a high value on time promptness. You know, we want our church services to be really tight and everything is kind of planned around that. Even birthday parties or any kind of social gathering tends to be, you know, pretty tight and scripted.

Scott Allen:

And and of course I've noticed the same thing when we have people from other countries come over to our house for a dinner, they'll very often, you know, just stay, and even Kim and I, being Americans, right, we'll kind of start what we've got, other things we want to kind of move on to, you know.

Scott Allen:

But what I think that that should prompt us to do and you notice those differences is then to say, okay, here's my culture and we have a particular view of time and many other things, and here's another culture, they have a different view of time.

Scott Allen:

But to come back to the true right, to the biblical, and ask questions like how does the Bible shape my understanding of this right and it's good, because maybe it's the first time you ever ask a question like that. You just don't even think about it. But the Bible has something to say about these kinds of things, right, and it's going to probably challenge I think in this instance it's going to challenge both cultures, right? Yeah, there is a future and time is precious and it's a gift. We have to steward it. So that would kind of lean more towards the American kind of view, I suppose. But on the other side, people are very precious and relationships are very important and we need to prioritize those. We need to value people, and part of the way you do that is by showing hospitality and things like that. So that's going to challenge, right, showing hospitality and things like that.

George Oliveira:

So that's going to challenge, right. I think that part of if we look at it as a bad thing, the American way of seeing time, let's say if we look at it as a bad thing is that there is a tendency of being individualistic and focus only on your schedule, and that's what matters the most, because you're working for yourself, you're building yourself, you are your own God. That's the secular mindset in the West, right per se. But on the other hand, when we look at Jesus, the busiest days that he had, next day he would be up before the sun to have prayer time with the Father, you know, and he was fully. Anywhere he was, he was fully there, you know. It seems that nothing would stop him from doing what he had to do, and there were some times that he would just sit and multiply bread and eat with them. But there are the times that he said it's time for us to leave, it's time to go, but there are hungry people here, jesus, yes, but we got to move on. So how do we balance that reality? And I think it should give us this idea of what you're saying about relationship, because people matter and the great.

George Oliveira:

I think that from now, from my experience here in the States, the greatest challenge for us is to connect with people. Sometimes we don't know how to connect because people are. Everyone is busy. If you say, how are you doing? Oh, I'm great, but you know, busy, just busy. This is the language that comes out of our mouths every time, even in church. I talking to parents, moms yeah, but how are you? Yeah, I'm good, you know, just busy life, you know, life, that's the way it is. But is that, is that the way it's supposed to be? Is that how the Christian are supposed to trust in the Lord with their time and, you know, honor him with their time and also honor him in true relationships. And also honor him in true relationships, because when we have this, everybody's busy and running. There's a lot of connections that are lost.

George Oliveira:

Yes, that's right, I see a lot of. There's a pastor here from Orlando. His name is Jim Davis. He wrote a book called the Great Dechurching and he's part of a it's called TGC, the Gospel Coalition. He wrote that book and he was studying, you know, data, why people leave the church.

George Oliveira:

What's going on with this generation, gen Z, millennials and so on and so forth? It's culturally normal for Americans to move to college, right, so they go to a different city. And for us in Brazil, that's not what happens. People leave their home, usually when they're married. So the thing is, when people would go to the next city, they would not find a church to be their home church, you know. And then also, with the mentality of the worldview, the secular worldview, in colleges and so on, they don't have connections and relationships and most of churches, historically, they are around programs.

George Oliveira:

It's like 60 to 80 percent of the reaching American churches is like come to our church. When you come to our church, we will evangelize you, and this is not what the Lord told us to do. So the Lord told us to go. It's being in the, in their world, right. It's being right in this, being vulnerable out there, because it's so easy for us to be in our own walls of our church, off when we control everything. You know the environment, but when we were there, I think that's the the challenge.

George Oliveira:

Um, you know I I heard um leslie, new begin and keller talking about a missionary encounter for the West. About that. It's like how do we, how do we reach the culture, how do we go there? Because, even though America is not like Europe in terms of losing the, the Christians roots, right, but it is decreasing rapidly as well. So how do we have the gospel framing the missions of the churches so we can go outside our four walls of our churches and and live missionally?

George Oliveira:

That is the, the tension that I think DNA has been dealing for 20-something years and that is the church's missions, I think, for the West. How do we critique the culture and how do we challenge the culture with a biblical worldview? It feels that sometimes we're afraid. Right, we have to be apologetics or we have to have all the answers, but if we ask questions to the culture, it will show and Daryl was talking about reality like it doesn't match, you know, the worldview of today's world with the reality of the scriptures, with the reality of the world with the reality of the scriptures, with the reality of the world.

Scott Allen:

Yeah, I think those are all really great insights, george, I do think culture is something that we take way too lightly. It shapes us way more profoundly than we realize. We're all enculturated way more deeply than we realize, even as Christians, even as Christians who've been Christians for decades, and to have opportunities to step outside, to look at your culture critically and to begin to ask questions Is it more biblical or is it more American or Brazilian? You know the way that I am, the way that I'm thinking. Whatever the issue happens to be is really, really important for all of us in our growth as Christians. We just can't grow if we're not asking those kind of questions and getting some perspective on our cultures.

George Oliveira:

And who is discipling the culture right? And then?

Scott Allen:

who is to say who's exerting the dominant influence? We all, you need to know that right not just historically but presently.

George Oliveira:

The young people here, um, it's uh not only here, of course, most of the world, but uh the gen z that the average is six hours a day, six hours a day on social media. And in the past I grew up with the TV shows, the famous people like from sports, from this, and that they were in the gates of the city, but many influencers. Now they have like 5 million, 10 million followers, and some of them we don't even know who they are because it's so spread now. And uh are we thinking about uh that? Because we spent two hours or one hour and a half on sunday, um, and then they spent the rest of the their week being discipled from from those things. How do we uh see the connection there, or how do we communicate in a way that will challenge that view? I think it's a good question also to ask to this generation right, to say the least.

Scott Allen:

I mean, we're in the midst of what some people call, I think, it's the third industrial revolution, the information revolution. We're in the midst of what some people call I think it's the third industrial revolution, the information revolution. We're in the midst of this revolution of the Internet and of cell phones and technology, and now it's just accelerating with AI, and it's happened in the last you know, I mean in my lifetime, in my adult lifetime. This has all happened and it's as profound and powerful of a change as any that has ever happened in human history, probably more so. And we're right in the middle of it.

Scott Allen:

And if you're not thinking critically about it if you're not, you know thinking how is it shaping me and the way that I think you need to start? You know that's so important right now. Dwight, you had a really great question that you raised before we got on with George and I thought that would be kind of a nice—I don't know if you want to go there now, but I thought that would be a great way to kind of talk about this as well.

Dwight Vogt:

I want to go backwards before I ask that, george, you're making me—I'm going way back to the Africans that played the drums in Brazil before the Portuguese came, and the focus there was on catching the spirit of the gods and somehow making that your internal experience. And I'm thinking that then that goes into Pentecostalism, and drums, and, and, and then I'm thinking, well, was that just syncretized or was that redeemed? Maybe they redeemed those drums, you know, it actually became a pathway for the spirit of God. Then to you know, because he uses music and he uses percussion and drums, and I'm thinking, well, so anyway, you didn't answer that question, I don't expect you to, but drums. And I'm thinking, well, so anyway, you didn't answer that question and I don't expect you to. But then I'm going, okay, and then, daryl, you're talking we have my culture, we have George's culture and we have kingdom culture, and I'm going, but we also want Brazilian culture and we want American culture, we want pizza and we want tacos or whatever.

Dwight Vogt:

And yet there's a kingdom culture, and a kingdom culture is rooted in worldview, because worldview is at the root of culture. I'm going okay, so what would a kingdom culture look like and still be Brazilian? What would a kingdom culture look like and still be American? And then my next question is how do we need to be countercultural? Because you guys are talking about millennials, you're talking about Zs, you're talking about a program church where you only have an hour on Sunday and you have to get out of there on time. And I'm going yeah, that's our church and we're upset if it's five minutes late because something happened. And I go, how do we need to be countercultural so that we can somehow move out of the confines of our own culture, where they're? You know? Anyway, you guys are answering zero questions for me today. You're just raising them.

Dwight Vogt:

That's good, but thanks for raising them, and so we'll see.

Scott Allen:

Well, I think we should talk a little bit about that, dwight. I think it's a really important question that you're raising, and that is, as the gospel, the culture of the kingdom of God, comes into another culture, does it obliterate that culture, you know, does it tear it all the way down to the ground and then something completely new is built? I think the answer to that is no. I think there's a redeeming of cultural elements. Certainly, some things have to go. I think of a widow burning in India, for example.

Scott Allen:

That can't stay right, but there's other things that do, and I'd love to hear your guys' thoughts on this. I'll just share one thought and that is that and this had a big influence on me when I first realized that is that when God came to this earth, the incarnation of Jesus, he came into a culture it was the Jewish culture. It's a very distinct culture and he, you know, he operated. Jesus operated within that culture and certainly he challenged it within that culture and certainly he challenged it and he did redeem it, but he brought redemptive elements to it as well, but he didn't obliterate it.

Scott Allen:

And I think that's so important because I was a missionary in Japan for several years and one of the things I noticed in Japan is that the gospel had come to Japan largely after World War II and many American missionaries came. I mean, there's a long history. The Jesuits brought Christianity to Japan back in the 1700s, but it had never become an indigenous faith, if you will, and Christianity always should. It should become something that isn't seen as a foreign faith, but it's our faith, because it's true. It's true not just for Americans or Jews, it's true for people all over the world, in every culture, and it needs to at some point become our faith in a uniquely Japanese way, or an American way, or a Brazilian way. Dara, what are your thoughts on this?

Darrow Miller:

I have a number and I think the word redeeming culture is the right one. So much of what we do is critique culture and we've talked about this this morning and we've talked about this this morning. But we are to be beyond critiquing culture and absorbing culture, which is what we do just through growing up. We are to create culture and it needs to be uniquely the culture of the kingdom. But we have this image from scripture that I think helps us understand this, and that is there's one God. It's unity and diversity. One God, three persons, one king, one kingdom. But you have people from all over the earth that become part and contribute to that kingdom. So it's not either my home culture or their home culture, it's the culture of the kingdom. We started out by talking about the necessity, or at least I was thinking about this. We are to disciple nations, not just win people to Christ and get them to church. We're to disciple at the level of culture. That's part of this process. How do we do it? But it's not saying no to everything in another culture, because in every culture there are things that are beautiful and redeemable and in every culture there are things that need to be rooted out because they are bringing death and destruction. So we need to, as Christians, in a redeeming culture and discipling at the level of culture, distinguish between those good things in every culture that are there, shine a light on them, and those things in which they're destructive. Those things need to be honestly dealt with. So I think this is part of the pattern that we need in going forward Now.

Darrow Miller:

I had an experience when I was in New Zealand teaching at a leadership training school for YWAM and we got on this issue of culture and we ended up spending a whole day on processing what I call the ABCs of culture. What are some of the bad things in your culture, where did they come from and what are the consequences? Consequences, and each group from Germany, from the islands, from the Americas that was there looked at their own culture through that lens of the ABCs of culture. And there was a time at the end of the day where I said I want you to come up and share, where I said I want you to come up and share, and what they ended up doing. They had a big cross, a wooden cross, in this room and each group came up and had on a piece of paper some of the bad things in their culture that they nailed to the cross. That they nailed to the cross, and each group that came up shared what those things were that were detrimental to their culture, and I can tell you there was weeping and gnashing of teeth. People could see how their culture was being limited by these things, and so they nailed them to the cross. And then we had a time of prayer thanking God that, not for the cross, but also for the redemption of culture that the cross provides. And they nailed these things to the cross.

Darrow Miller:

No-transcript between now and tomorrow. As a nation, as a culture, what is something that you could redeem, that has redeemable value? And I remember some of the guys from the South Pacific, these big Maori chest-thumping warriors, and of course they related to something you said earlier, george their culture was expressed through their music, through their dance, and they realized that and how their dance had demonic elements in it, and that was part of what was keeping them down in it, and that was part of what was keeping them down. And so that night they got together and created a new story and a new dance, and the next day they got up and they danced as Maoris do this new story.

George Oliveira:

And it's interesting because I was reading a book called the Story of Gods by Larry Hurtado and he talks about how the early church was countercultural in their time because you could not invite people to church because they would tell the soldiers and you would die. So how would the gospel be spread in that culture? It had to be through the church out there, right, and I think this is the challenge that we see. But they had some characteristics that is so interesting. They were integrated people from different ethnical groups. It's like the Greeks and the Jews. They were together worshiping Jesus and also Jesus is Lord. It was the first persecution they had. It was not a religious one, it was a political one, because by saying Jesus is Lord, you say that Caesar is not. So how dare you say that? So you might die. So that courage and that boldness to live in a society and challenge the culture is something that is great.

George Oliveira:

Also, what we see I remember Daryl speaking about that in one of the courses, speaking about that in one of the courses, talking about the Roman soldiers not seeing compassion as a quality or as a good thing, and they would care for the sick, they would care for the poor and they would die for that. They would also be non-retaliatory. They would forgive also be non-retaliatory. They would forgive they would. You know all the shame, all you know the scoffing and people would shame them and put them in a different level and say all the things. He would just forgive them. But they also were. They would. They would you know. The expression, I think, is they put their money where their mouth was, were right, because they would also care for the, the babies, and they were against infanticide. We would call them the pro-life right movement and also they were. The last one is that they were. They had a counter culture in terms of sex, a new sex culture people with force monogamy right.

George Oliveira:

Monogamy and also people from higher levels of society would have sex with whoever they wanted in the lower one and they would stop that from going. But if you note something? So the first two that I said about multi-ethnics and carry for the, the poor, usually is related to the left, and the last two ones the moral, prudent and sexual and pro-life is more tending to the right side of political conversation. So the gospel challenges everybody. The gospel and the biblical worldview challenges wherever your political view is. So it's not about one or the other. How do we challenge that? We have one group saying that the others don't understand the Bible and this and that.

George Oliveira:

But the first early church were living and changing culture with the power of the gospel, with the power of the gospel, with the polytheistic spirit. Right, the spirit was working then. And the last thing I wanted to mention about, uh, daryl's comment is that, um, how, how do we live a life of obedience, not expecting to see the whole country transformed? Because I think this, this. He said that we usually have the critiquing view of culture and then absorbing view of culture. But we are to have this, this idea of creating culture, and I hear many, many times I'm teaching about biblical worldview.

George Oliveira:

I'm talking to people. They start critiquing culture, but. But they get dismotivated, they get frustrated because I know there's no way for us, it's impossible. What can we do? And our conversation is like be faithful, obey, what do you have in your hands, give to the Lord. You know, because we are part of God's history in the world. We are just part and we're gladly obeying his command in following his steps. So it's not about oh Scott changed America, dwight changed the North. You know. It's not about that. It's about God's glory in his story and we're part of that and we're being used by God in that. So in Phoenix, in Lakeland, in Brazil, wherever we are, we are faithful and God will use that for His glory.

Scott Allen:

Yeah, great, great word there, George. I think that's so important for us. You know God is, this is really His mission. I mean that always is something that comes back to me. This mission of discipling nations is something that he is passionate about and in the same way that he wants to see our own lives at the individual level redeemed and sanctified and made more Christ-like, he wants to see our nations, our nations, made more like His kingdom, you know, and he gives us a role to play in that. Praise God for that. You know, I mean how it gives our life meaning and purpose. But we're not the ones.

Scott Allen:

I'm not going to change my culture or any culture. I'm just going to be faithful, as you said, george. I'm just underscoring what you said, you know, and, by the way, that faithfulness God can use it in a significant way. I don't want to undermine. I often think of people like the great missionary to Ireland, right, that we celebrate. You know, patrick, you know he saw that culture which had beautiful elements to it, but boy, it was rough and violent. You know tribal and pagan. He saw that change in his lifetime, dramatically, dramatically. So I don't want to underscore the fact that things can't change and they can't change quite as quickly. But ultimately that's not your job. Your job is to be faithful and see what God does and give.

George Oliveira:

Him glory. I just remembered a story Scott about in 2016,. We were having a week gathering young people with Daryl there, talking kind of a Labrie style that would do conversations all day long. He's so rich and it was a time I think it was a few years later that we had translated the book Nurturing the Nations and the translation in Portuguese it came. The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world. It's a very impacting title.

George Oliveira:

So I was telling Daryl about giving that book to a friend of ours and Rebecca was reading with her and the impact the book made to this to our friend and also to her marriage and also to the way that she was teaching her kids, the way that she would see her mission as a woman, and it was beautiful to see that. But in that year we were there in Brasilia, in the capital of Brazil, and we had a few copies of the book and then I think it was Nelson or Pastor Nelson or someone else that gave that same book to the Ministry of Women in Brazil and the government and she read the book and she was thinking there and she said we're going to try to have the public rules or the public now the way that we do policy here, the way that we do things here, we run things here based upon the view of woman, like that, a biblical view of woman. So, yes, we don't know what's going to happen tomorrow, you know. No, that's a good example, I mean.

Scott Allen:

Darrow didn't set out to change public policy in Brazil around issues of women and family, but God did. He had a purpose and an agenda and a meeting that he wanted to happen and he used Darrow in that. That's a really good example of that, george, you know, you never know and you should never be faithless. You know there's nothing I can do. Things are so bad, whatever it is, I think right now that's a real common you know idea, especially in the American church, because we're living at a time when the culture is changing rapidly and in not a positive way. So it's easy to kind of just say, oh, there's nothing, we kind of give up. But never. That should never be what we do. We should, we should.

Scott Allen:

I like this idea of creating culture a lot. Yeah, critiquing culture, just simply absorbing culture. But what can I do to create a kingdom culture? And, by the way, you can do that as an American or a Brazilian. It's going to look different, but the principles of the kingdom are what's going to come through, and that diversity, the unity, is the principles of the kingdom. The diversity is the fact that we're expressing it as unique people from different places, and there's something really beautiful about that there's something very powerful and we can learn from each other. And maybe at that point I'd love to hear, just as we wrap up today, george, if you could bring something to American evangelicalism or American church from your vantage point as a Brazilian, what would it be? How could we create that kingdom culture here in the United States? What wisdom or insight can you bring us as a Brazilian? I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. Yeah.

George Oliveira:

I want to say that A Brazilian Christian yes, I want to say that as loving as I can. I don't want to be rude or anything, but I think that, from my experience and the way that I see most churches doing things, I think we should think less about programs and less about the need to show people how great we are or how much people we have in our church, and more about do I know the names of my neighbor next door? Do I know where they're from, how long they're living here? Have I invited them to sit here? Oh, what if it? And I hear that.

George Oliveira:

What if someone that doesn't believe in God? Or what if it's a transgender person? Or what if it's a homosexual? Oh my gosh, what am I going to do? I don't know how to talk. Let's a homosexual? Oh my gosh, what I'm going to do? I don't know how to talk. Let's have relationship, let's know the person you receive in your homes and make that our mission. Relationships, intentionality in our workplace, working for the glory of God. Intentionality in our families, intentionality in relationships. How do I sit with someone that thinks differently than me and starts from the Bible and the biblical worldview and challenge the culture? You know God. Romans 8 says if God is for us, who can be against us? So we're called to be out there, and the more we have that discipleship focus. So we have the proclamation of the gospel. We do a great Easter Sunday so we can have more people here, or a great Christmas service, or, you know, let's get out of the fortress of the walls, right.

Scott Allen:

I think what I hear you saying, George, is just, we have an institutional kind of mindset when it comes to church in the United States and it's about the church, the program, the building, the service, the music. But you're saying be more of a people, a people of God, you know, and get outside of that kind of institutional mindset and just ask yourself you know, what does it mean to be a follower of Jesus every day? In my context, as a neighbor and as a person in the workplace, and living faithfully in that way, that's a really, I think, quite powerful thing. Dwight and Luke, any comments from you as we wrap up today or questions? Yeah?

Dwight Vogt:

I appreciate you being very practical, George. I was just sitting here thinking, wow, do I know my neighbors, where they came from, how long they've lived here? I sort of do, but not really Not all of them Not. Well, that's just a very important starting point. So thank you, george. I just want to underscore too.

Scott Allen:

Luke, I know you want to say something here, but just what if your neighbors are transgender or LGBTQ? I think this is something that gets a lot of our culture doesn't like this idea at all, this idea that we have to love the sinner and hate the sin, and yet that's a very biblical idea that we can't abandon. That, listen, no, god doesn't endorse what they believe or what they're living and how they're living. It's destroying them. You know, at the same time, he loves them, right. He died for them and he's probably already at work in their lives trying to lead them to himself, and he's always out there ahead of us, you know, very often, and he could use us. So, but we have to be careful. How do we see them? Do we see them in the way that God does, as people that he loves and he died for, and not just, oh, these are bad people because they're Democrats or whatever, they are Republicans or whatever it?

George Oliveira:

is, and that also shows the wrong view of the gospel, because sometimes we're doing the prayer like I thank you, lord, because I'm not like this person, and without being reminded that we are the sinners that God saves. That's my testimony. So, yes, no, I was not a drug dealer, but you know what? You know what? The gospel saved me. I was a sinner and Christ died for me, so there's no greater present than that. So if I look at someone with that mentality now, I have to look at everyone with the eyes of Christ, Because if Christ did not speak with sinners, he would have not incarnated, Because everyone he was speaking with they were sinners, right?

Scott Allen:

So it's the power of the gospel. Yeah, go ahead, luke, you've got something you want to say.

Luke Allen:

Oh man, I have so many thoughts I'm like do I? This is raising more questions than I can keep up with. Um I a couple themes I've been picking up on today when we're talking about culture, or, george, when you were talking about how gen z spends so much time online these days and how we have influencers for every possible small niche interest of society and you can, you can isolate into your. You know, I'm in the. I like fly fishing, so I pay attention to these guys, or I, you know, politically, always stay in this bubble or I'm into bird washing.

George Oliveira:

I've never seen that before, but I heard about that bird washing there's. There's something well bird watching oh yeah that's huge, there's I didn't know that, that's like full-on religion.

Scott Allen:

You're not into that, George. We're all into bird watching.

Luke Allen:

No, but with the online age it can create even more of a separation.

Luke Allen:

You know, and we're all in our own little worlds and I think a lot of times with that we lose our common humanity and it can often lead to pride. You know my group's better than your group. I don't want to talk to your group. I have no idea how I would even talk to your group because I've never even met someone like you or sat down and had an honest conversation. And if we did, I'm sure you would just have a lot of things wrong with you and I wouldn't even know what to say.

George Oliveira:

I even make jokes. I make jokes with the Floridian here, where they don't know how to talk to a person from California, so it's like I always make jokes with them. Yeah, that's true.

Luke Allen:

But and then I think sometimes, as Christians, we can often just maybe it's just, maybe this is an American thing, but we think becoming a better Christian or going deeper in our faith means studying the next detailed, difficult argument of theology, which I'm totally for. I'm not against that, but it's like we need to work on the fundamentals. You know, we got to go back to the basics and that's what you were saying, george. We need to just realize that we are all created in the image of God. We are all sinners. These basic things. I'm no better than you. You know. God saved me, not by anything that I did and seeing other people in that light. That's the basics. But we need to go back to the basics and that will transcend the separations that we see.

George Oliveira:

And that will transcend the separations that we see and that will transcend cultural separations and geographic separations of Brazil and the US and so on. You can go on right, because there's a lot of tension after George Floyd, the racism and Black Lives Matter and so on and so forth, Black Lives Matter and so on and so forth, but also there's like what I'm noticing as I live here and talk to people is like there's a sub world of the Latinos, the Puerto Ricans in Florida, the Mexicans. It's kind of they live in a different world in America and it's like they don't talk to you or they don't care about speaking English sometimes and they don't feel in, or, and then after that there's a Brazilian. So it's a lot of of boxes for us. So what does it mean for us as Native Americans to have relationship with a Latino and intentional relationship with an Asian, and and and see that and learn from the differences, the cultural differences, because, um, and and uh, see that we're all, we're all in that, uh, together for the glory of God, I'm. I'm talking about uh, church members yes, relationship and also to the world. Um, yes, relationship and also to the world.

George Oliveira:

Sometimes I feel, oh, this is the American church and then we have the Brazilian church there, just the immigrant church, you know, just yeah, but the real one is right here.

George Oliveira:

So how do we navigate in these cultural tensions with the gospel and when we have and I enjoy a lot to be a pastor in an American church, because I get that a lot, like you, a Brazilian, a Latino, being a press of Americans and they start asking about the ethnicity of the members of the church or they start to ask it's like oh, but you have a lot of Brazilians there, right? No, I just know one couple only. But it's like, oh, so how did you do that? It's like, no, the Lord called me here to serve, and I think it's beneficial for us to learn how to navigate in that. And how do I learn to communicate the gospel that the people sitting in the pew will understand, not with only the Greek and the exegesis neat or okay, we are to have that but how do we communicate it to the culture? And because we know the power that the gospel has to transform our lives.

Scott Allen:

Listen. That's probably a great place to wrap up. George, Thank you for that reminder that we need to be looking for ways to cross those cultural boundaries and share our common humanity and the love of Jesus, often with people that— because we are increasingly into our own little communities and boxes. But as followers of Jesus, yeah, we need to cross those boundaries, and so thanks for your reminder on that today, George, and for your example of doing that, and Dwight and Luke, thank you, and Adaro as well, for being a part of this great discussion, and for all of our listeners today. I just want to thank you again for making our podcast something that's a part of your life. Thank you again for listening to another episode of Ideas have Consequences, the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance.