Ideas Have Consequences
Everything that we see around us is the product of ideas, of ideologies, of worldviews. That's where everything starts. Worldviews are not all the same, and the differences matter a lot. How do you judge a tree? By its fruits. How do you judge a worldview? By its physical, tangible, observable fruit. The things it produces. Ideas that are noble and true produce beauty, abundance, and human flourishing. Poisonous ideas produce ugliness. They destroy and dehumanize. It really is that simple. Welcome to Ideas Have Consequences, the podcast of Disciple Nations Alliance, where we prepare followers of Christ to better understand the true ideas that lead to human flourishing while fighting against poisonous ideas that destroy nations. Join us, and prepare your minds for action!
Ideas Have Consequences
Do Other Worldviews Value Thankfulness?
Thankfulness is a focus in many American homes in the month of November. But have you ever considered that thankfulness is not a universally valued characteristic? Not to mention that the amount of gratitude we see on a daily basis actually seems to be decreasing today.
How does one’s sense of privilege or status result in a lack of gratitude toward others? How does belief in the significance of each person’s life cultivate gratitude within a person? Does belief in the goodness and sovereignty of God inspire thankfulness in the midst of trying times?
Our office team gathered together to reflect on these questions and share our favorite biblical passages about the priority and results of thankfulness in the Christian life. We discussed why the biblical worldview places such an emphasis on gratitude, and contrasted this with different worldviews. In conclusion, we considered how essential thankfulness is for building thriving, flourishing cultures in families, communities, and nations. Join us for this thoughtful and encouraging discussion!
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And to me I just the foundation of that like. To me I see gratitude as kind of the foundation of worship.
Dwight Vogt:This idea that we stand shoulder to shoulder with one another on an equal footing and owe each other respect and dignity and gratitude for serving one another just seems like a fundamentally foundational element for a healthy culture.
John Bottimore:Is. The biblical worldview is ultimately about gratitude and service versus power. And you know what we always say the work on the cross is done, so the biblical worldview is about done, not do.
Luke Allen:But I just couldn't help but think but what is your thankfulness ultimately rooted in? You know? Do you just look at those beautiful mountains and you say, oh, I'm just so thankful for the scenery. But to me I say, well, you think that scenery just came through random chance and happenstance, you know? But I know where those mountains came from, the source, the designer, the artist who painted that picture for us to appreciate. It's such a deeper rooted thankfulness.
Chloe Carson:More than anything else in the whole entire world. That is our primary reason as Christians to be thankful. More than anything else is that we have a kingdom that cannot be shaken and a salvation that cannot be shaken.
Tim Williams:Gratitude spills into an appreciation for beauty, puts us in a place where we just kind of can pause and recognize things outside ourselves, gives us a rhythm for finding peace, and when people are marked by this, it's going to make a difference wherever they go.
Luke Allen:Hi friends, welcome back to Ideas have Consequences. The podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. As you know if you've listened to this podcast, on this show we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world, to all the nations, but our mission also includes to be the hands and feet of God, to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the Church has largely neglected this second part of permission and today most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.
Scott Allen:And again, everybody to another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. My name is Scott Allen, I'm the president of the DNA and I'm joined by the entire team today, including our newest team member, chloe Carson. Hi, chloe, chloe, great to have you on today and maybe just well let me just quickly introduce everyone else. John Boddimore, joining from Virginia. Hi, john. Hi Scott. John Carson and Dwight Voed are in Phoenix. Good, morning.
Scott Allen:And hi guys, luke Allen is up here with me in Oregon and Tim Williams is in North Carolina. Hi, tim, great to be here. It's so great to be together with you guys. I am so thankful for this team. Chloe is our newest team member and Chloe is a recent graduate of Grand Canyon University, where she studied theology and Bible and has, I'm sure, great insights for us today. So we're grateful that you are with us, chloe, and grateful to have a female voice in the midst of all these crazy men too. So, listen, today is we are recording this on November 8, 2023.
Scott Allen:And so we're coming into the Thanksgiving season. It's really probably my favorite holiday. I mean, christmas might beat it out a little bit, but I absolutely love Thanksgiving, I love the whole time of year, and so we wanted to focus our episode today on the topic of Thanksgiving and gratitude, and I just wanted to kind of give a DNA twist to it. I guess and what I mean by that is that you know the Disciple Nations Alliance we're very interested in the power of biblical truth, of biblical worldview, biblical principles, truths from the Bible, just truths of reality, really and how those truths, when they are lived out faithfully, individually and in communities give rise to flourishing cultures. And I think that is so true when it comes to this subject of gratitude and Thanksgiving, which is really, in some ways, I would say it's a supreme duty for Christians, for people, all people. Right, it just comes out so clearly in the Bible that this is just really a chief responsibility duty, this spirit of thankfulness, and it matters, that really matters in terms of any kind of community that you belong to. If people in that community, it could be your family, it could be your literal community or even a whole nation, any culture, when people have a spirit of gratitude, it manifests itself in that culture in a really positive way.
Scott Allen:And not every worldview we're going to talk about this because not every worldview has a basis for this. In fact, I don't think any of the kind of main competitors to a biblical worldview have a basis for it, especially the chief kind of, I would say, the chief rival in our contemporary Western culture, which is this kind of postmodern, neo-marxist kind of woke worldview, as we say. That in particular and we'll talk more about that does not have a grounding for gratitude. In fact it pushes in exactly the opposite direction. And then what does that mean?
Scott Allen:So how we're going to do this this morning is we're going to do this as kind of a round robin and give everyone a chance to share on some basic questions around that topic, and what I'd like to do is just start by asking each one of you guys let's just start with the Bible and what verse do you have in your mind or your heart? What verse passage do you particularly love on this subject of gratitude or thanksgiving or thankfulness? And I'd like to start with you, dwight, share a passage that is particularly meaningful to you, and if we have the same passage, good, no problem. Yeah.
Dwight Vogt:All right. Well, I was looking at another passage in Psalms and I thought, well, I got to find one on thankfulness because, scott, you asked us to come up with one. And I thought, well, here's a good one in Psalm 9. And actually it's a praise Psalm, of course. It says I will praise you, o Lord, with all my heart. I will tell of all your wonders, I will be glad and rejoice in you. I will sing praise to your name, oh most high. And I know where I want to go with that verse.
Dwight Vogt:But I'm going to backtrack a little bit, because you asked us about world view and thankfulness and I was remembering I started my career, working career in Thailand, working with a Relief and Development Organization, and half of us were Americans, the other half were Thai on staff, and we wanted to celebrate Thanksgiving and we wanted to celebrate it with the Thai staff and they wanted to know what in the world is Thanksgiving, why do you celebrate this? So we had this wonderful party, we had Turkey and all the trimmings in the front yard and we told the story of you know Thanksgiving.
Scott Allen:You had.
Dwight Vogt:Turkey, in Thailand, it was really fun. It was really fun and to tell the story of why we celebrate. But then at that time somebody said what is it about Americans that you always say thank you? She goes. It's almost annoying. You say thank you for everything and I thought about that and I thought, yeah, you know, you're checking out at the airport and you go past that kiosk to pay for your parking ticket and somebody takes it and you go, thank you and she goes. Why do you do that?
Dwight Vogt:Oh, that's so interesting and it made me think about why we do that and I thought why do we do that?
Scott Allen:Why?
Dwight Vogt:do we do that, and I'm thinking it's because we have this idea that no one is below me. I am not. There's no sense of entitlement. Well, now you're in fear to me, so you owe me this service? No, we're all equal. We're all made in the image of God and so none of us have this, should have this sense of entitlement.
Scott Allen:And when you don't have or superiority, that's so interesting.
Dwight Vogt:But if you don't have, that then you're not owed something, you are blessed by something, and so you say thank you, and we say thank you to everyone at least we should, so that's awesome.
Scott Allen:Anyway, that was. Yeah, that was my insight. No, thanks, that's perfect Because, yeah, you get us thinking about how this is not a universal kind of idea that every culture has in common. Necessarily, it comes, you know, from, particularly from cultures that have been shaped by the Bible. So that's great, john.
John Bottimore:So I have a few verses from Colossians 3. Colossians 3, as we recall, is about talks to us about the new life in Christ, about seeking things above, not things on earth. It's about how we should think and our actions that we put to death. And it's also about what we're to put on, and one of the things to put on is this thankfulness and peace. So Colossians 3, 15 through 17.
John Bottimore:Let the peace of Christ rule in your heart, to which indeed you were called in one body, and be thankful. Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you with all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another with Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God. Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of Lord Jesus, giving thanks through him to God, the Father. So we can see how that's supposed to be a life lesson in everything we do, and implied in there is it's a choice and it's not an easy choice. Sometimes we let our emotions get to us, so it requires discipline, adjustment in our thinking and all. But we can pray and we can certainly observe other people in that, and I came across what I thought was a neat quote on this. That said, some people are always grumbling because roses have thorns, but I'm thankful that thorns have roses, so I thought that was the right kind of perspective we should have about thankfulness even in hard times. Good job.
Scott Allen:That's great, sean Carson.
Shawn Carson:This is a little bit of a different verse. It's from Hebrews, chapter 12, verse 28. It says, Therefore, let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship and reverence and awe. And to me, I just the foundation of that like. To me, I see gratitude as kind of the foundation of worship, and what do we worship and who do we worship and when we? The fact that we're receiving a kingdom, that's a word that's been highlighted to me for the last 10 years or so, and so I just really resonated with that verse and thinking that it's something that it's we long for, we look forward to, and we have gratitude for the fact that this is what we have to look forward to.
Scott Allen:Yeah, chloe.
Chloe Carson:So I am stealing Sean's verse. I use the same verses, sean, but another verse was coinciding with it in my head when I was thinking about this because, like Sean was saying, the fact that it says, since we're receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, it's giving us a reason to be thankful and I think, more than anything else in the whole entire world, that is our primary reason as Christians to be thankful, more than anything else is that we have a kingdom that cannot be shaken and a salvation that cannot be shaken, and so that out of that outflows all of our other reasons to be thankful. But another verse that I was thinking about the same time as this first was Philippians to 14 to 15, which basically just says do everything without grumbling. And so, for the same reason, because we have a kingdom that cannot be shaken, because our salvation cannot be shaken, because we are sealed with this Holy Spirit, we should be doing everything without grumbling and complaining.
Chloe Carson:So, just some thoughts that I had.
Scott Allen:Great verses. Thank you very much, tim yeah.
Tim Williams:You know I boiled it down to like four passages, so Couldn't pick just one.
Scott Allen:Huh, yeah, right.
Tim Williams:Philippians. Four, though has been a passage that has just been.
Luke Allen:He stole mine.
Tim Williams:So important for me. Oh, I'll shift really quickly, you're good.
Tim Williams:I don't know, you know, if there's anybody else out there in the world who maybe they're a bit of a Taipei personality and they, just you know, burn the candle at both ends. They're busy bodies and you know, even when they lay down at night, you know their mind is is spinning, and this is a verse that is is close to me. So, starting in verse four, philippians, chapter four, verse four rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again rejoice. Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with Thanksgiving, present your requests to God, and the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. So those are the verses that have really sit out to me.
Tim Williams:First, thessalonians five, 16 through 18, says rejoice always, pray continually, give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus. And one of the things that this just reminds me of, and really as a worldview element, is that we can give thanks in all circumstances. It doesn't say just, you know, give thanks if things are going good, but as we look at a principle of the biblical worldview, god is sovereign, number one and number two. God is also good. And so in those two elements, those two principles, we can, we can find rest, we can find gratitude in, in every situation, not that the situation itself necessarily feels good or seems good, but, as Romans eight 28 would tell us, that he is working in all things to bring about good.
Tim Williams:For me. That leads me to a place where I can really rest in the nature of who God is. And you know you contrast that with a more secular worldview where it all depends on you. You don't get get a break. You know who do you give thanks to. If you're going to succeed in life, it depends on you. Or you know a more Marxist worldview where if you want to see change, and in the world, there's got to be a revolution. You know, In the biblical worldview we can rest in the fact that we've got an almighty God who's good, who's actively interested in our welfare and the welfare of the world, and we can join him and while we're a participant in the outcome, we can trust him with the elements that are outside our control.
Scott Allen:Good thoughts, tim, that's great. Yeah, and good verses. Yeah, luke, how about you? Do you have a verse that you jumped to mind?
Luke Allen:Yeah, I also wanted to share Philippians four and I thought I was going to be unique with that one because it's not exactly the first one that comes to mind when you think of Thanksgiving, but it does talk about giving thanks. Yeah, that idea of do not be anxious about anything, you know such an impossible command is what it sounds like off, you know right off the bat, because we're always going to be anxious, there's always things to be anxious about. But it gives us the perfect response to that Do not be anxious about everything. But when you feel those anxious you know, you know feelings and desires coming up, your response should immediately be through parent petition, you know, offering that up to God. But then what you can do right away is you can be thankful, and I love that contrast of it. They're almost opposites anxiety and thankfulness, because they're both actions, they're both things you're cognitively doing in your head, but on one hand you're looking at the negative things in life, on the other hand you're lifting your eyes up. So be thankful. I like what you were saying, john, is thankfulness is something that we should put on. It's something we can choose to put on and utilize our free will to be thankful, and as Christians like you were saying, chloe we have the ultimate reason to be thankful. You know, we've been given the kingdom, we've been given salvation like that essentially blurs out everything in this temporary life that we have here on Earth, and that is where our thankfulness is ultimately grounded.
Luke Allen:I also stumbled across they've been doing some research on thankfulness. It's been going on for about 20 years now and they've correlated happy people with thankful people and they've been trying to figure out is it happy people that are often thankful or is it the other way around? Thankful people are often happy and they've actually in 2019, they came out with some research pointing to the ladder that thankful people have better lives Just overall in general. Mayo Clinic, according to them, it says that grateful people experience decreased depression, decreased anxiety, chronic pain and even risk of disease and overall, thankful people live longer, which I think is just such a cool example of how people that live according to God's principles and God's design for us as humans live Overall works out better for us because he knows how we're supposed to live, so I love that. It kind of correlates back to the verse 2, do not be anxious, but be thankful, and thankfulness actually decreases anxiety in people's lives scientifically.
Scott Allen:Wow, powerful thoughts, luke, and I think that's a. We'll come back to that. But the connection between gratitude and happiness is quite strong in the Bible and you know, like you say, it's been backed up by scientific research as well. But I think the other thing that jumps out to me that you said is there's just the choice aspect to this, that this is to be thankful is something that we choose. Right. You have to make a determination to do it, and the Bible says you do it regardless of the circumstances, which is kind of amazing, but you have to make choices to do this. So I want to circle back to that. I think that's really powerful because not all world.
Scott Allen:This is a really uniquely biblical way of thinking. And again, I think for those of us who grew up in the West, you know we live in a culture, even if we're not Christians, it's saturated with biblical ways of thinking and so a lot of this just seeps into the way we think. But it's not common around the world or in history, in places that haven't been influenced by the Bible. I you know. For me, the verse that came to my mind first on this is, I think and Tim or Luke, you mentioned it, but it's first Thessalonians, I think, tim five as well, 16 and 17. Let me just say it again rejoice always, pray continually, give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you.
Scott Allen:Okay, I think it's that last part that I particularly like, because you know we struggle sometimes like gosh. What is God's will right? You know what? What? What what's God's will for my life right? What am I supposed to do? What you know? And I like these verses where it just kind of says it like this is God's will for your life right.
Scott Allen:This is what he wants you to do. This is what he requires of you, even you know it's more than what you know what he wants, it's what he requires, and thankfulness is on the list, right, you know, along with prayer and these other things, but thankfulness is high on that list. So I think it really is a supreme kind of biblical responsibility or duty for, and not just for, christians or people of God, but for all people, and it's cool because it's for our good. It's what leads to happiness, right, it leads to our, you know, living a fulfilled, happy life.
Scott Allen:So I want to switch now and I want to Tim, you were already kind of jumping the gun a little bit on this, but I want to look at worldview as it relates to happiness, and you know we talk about and, dwight, you also did a nice job of kind of introducing this with your experience in Thailand, and you were in a culture where and you know this is not true of Thailand, right Any kind of culture where you've got a kind of a strict social hierarchy, right, and that plays into this right, because if you are high up on that social hierarchy, you might think of India with its caste system, or even England, and this exists in the United States as well, right, so if you're high up on that caste system, the people below you are obligated, right, to thank you, but you don't really have any obligation to thank them, right, because? And so? But that's not what the Bible, right, teaches. And so cultures that have been shaped by the Bible, as you were saying, you know, it's just different, right, we just thank people generally, we ought to, anyways, and we ought to supremely thank God. So I want to look at this, you know kind of exploration of other worldviews, and how did they deal or not deal, or provide any kind of basis for this concept of thankfulness, and what difference does that make in terms of a culture?
Scott Allen:So why is it important in terms of a healthy, flourishing culture? Is it important, or is it not Just your thoughts on that? Let's do it. Let's do the round robin again. I want to start with you, dwight.
Dwight Vogt:No, luke Scott, I was thinking of Thailand and the example of giving thanks. Yeah, I don't think a rich businessman getting into a taxi and then paying the fare and getting out whatever say thank you, but the taxi driver, who's much lower status, would always say thank you are not, or would more likely say thank you because of that difference in hierarchy and status and low status, thanks for high status, because you know they're not entitled to anything because the rich person has the entitlement.
Dwight Vogt:So that was really clear. Whether that you know whether that's a healthier culture. I mean, this young lady thought American culture was annoying. But in general, this idea that we stand shoulder to shoulder with one another on an equal footing and owe each other respect and dignity and gratitude for serving one another just seems like a fundamentally foundational element for healthy culture.
Scott Allen:Absolutely, dwight. You know, if you've been around people that feel entitled, you know in your family or wherever you know they're not thankful. It's kind of toxic. It really does kind of wreck, you know, and it's so different when people have a heart of gratitude, even for small things. It just creates a different kind of culture, and this is true of entire nations as well. So I think it's really good that you brought that up, john, what are your thoughts on this?
John Bottimore:Yeah, I say the thankfulness and gratitude is. It's a fundamental heart condition before God. That is absolutely a prerequisite for a healthy biblical worldview. Otherwise we block out anything that the Lord can bring to us. Isaiah 29.13 says this people draw near me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, while their hearts are far from me. So if we're not right with the Lord in understanding what His grace is and understanding the impact of that on our lives and having gratitude because of that, how can anything after that in terms of our biblical worldview on anything be healthy? So I say that thankfulness is the consequence of a heart that's right before God and then it pours out and it comes out into healthy biblical worldview things that are consistent with Scripture. So it's a hard attitude before it's any kind of a verbal expression about what we believe about anything or how we act about anything. So without this we're totally self-focused. That's inconsistent with God's word. Gratitude fights against pride and pride is a huge blocker and barrier to a healthy worldview In culture.
John Bottimore:And some general comments about comparing it to other worldviews, which we could do more specifically. But the biblical worldview is timeless. It's based on the true scripture. It doesn't change with shifting wins and tides of society and all. So this call to be thankful amidst all circumstances which do change is also timeless. And other worldviews got you alluded to it earlier. They're based on competing views, and they're competing views about human works and power, not on looking at the world the way that God does. And so to compare the biblical worldview with anything else in just a couple of comparative words, is the biblical worldview is ultimately about gratitude and service versus power. In other worldviews, and what we always say, the work on the cross is done. So the biblical worldview is about done, not do, and other worldviews are about do. What do we do, what do we make, what do we win. So our worldview fundamentally, is about the done, the finished work on the cross and back to that gratitude from that and everything else flows from that in terms of how we have a healthy worldview.
Scott Allen:Good thoughts, John. How about you on this question of worldviews, different worldviews and the impact that gratitude has on shaping healthy cultures?
Shawn Carson:Yeah, I think gratitude is scripturally, it's based on an act of faith. We give gratitude because we've received something Jesus says he who has been forgiven little loves little, but he who's been forgiven much loves much.
Chloe Carson:And.
Shawn Carson:I think you know, when a culture that has been rooted in biblical worldview and has people living in that culture who have been redeemed, who have been forgiven much, there's a gratitude that comes from the fact that I've been forgiven and I therefore can be grateful for all that God has done for me. If you don't have that as your foundation, then you walk around trying to appease the gods and trying to get their favor and you're always on edge. What are you grateful for? There's nothing to be grateful for because you haven't received anything.
Shawn Carson:So I think there's a sense of biblical worldview as the foundation for gratitude, because it's God, it's revealed in God and who he is and who his nature is, his character, and out of that he has come to us, he has shown us who he is. He's omnipotent, he's omnipresent, he's kind, he's loving, he's merciful and through Jesus, he's with us, you know. And so I think that when we recognize that Christ has come, god has come, he has lived with us, he's revealed himself to us, he has died in our place what else could we do but be grateful for that and then be thankful people, and then that just spills over into our life with one another.
Scott Allen:Yeah, absolutely, Chloe. What are your thoughts on this question?
Chloe Carson:Yeah, sean, that was really good. I feel like we're all sort of beating the same drum here. But no other worldview has Jesus Christ as Lord, so therefore, no other worldview has this supreme reason to be grateful and no other worldview has a kingdom that cannot be shaken and all these things. And I really like what you were saying, sean or Scott, about we're commanded and that is God's will for us, and it's just drenched throughout Scripture of other things we're commanded of, like Colossians 3, keeping our eyes on things above. If our eyes are on things above, we have nothing else to be but thankful.
Chloe Carson:And then what you were saying about serving others and honoring others around us, like Sean was saying, that it spills out to people around us. If we are doing as we're commanded in Philippians 2, as counting others more significant than ourselves, then we have no other reason but to be thankful for the ways that the people around us are living and serving us and loving us. And I just feel like you test, scripture to Scripture, every Scripture points to other Scripture and all Scripture points to gratitude and worship in all of the Lord which will spill out around us and the way we live, and like what all you guys are saying about circumstances. Like all Scripture is drenched with the fact that no matter. Paul said that he has learned the secret of being content in all circumstances. No matter what's going on, jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever, and so our gratitude and our worldview therefore never changes, because our world, our kingdom, never changes. So this thankfulness is just like a continued beat throughout all Scripture.
Scott Allen:It's great, tim yeah.
Tim Williams:Chloe, as you're talking, I just am reminded that Jesus is a servant king.
Tim Williams:So he's modeled all of this for us. What a great reason for us to give thanks that we have a God who's interested in us in that way. A couple of other things that I kind of connect with gratitude is probably this biblical concept of a Sabbath rest, when we take a break from our spinning our wheels. Oh, that's not really great fairies, but you know all of our attempts at progress. You know, when we take a break and we just rest in God, who has it all together, you know, I think of the Matthew 6 passage.
Tim Williams:Why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon and all his splendor was dressed like one of these. The pagans run after all these things and your heavenly father knows that you need them, so we can just rest in him taking care of us as we do our part and we respond to him. And I think that this also brings us into as a people, which you know spills into our workplaces, our nations, our families. Gratitude spills into an appreciation for beauty, puts us in a place where we just kind of can pause and recognize things outside ourselves, gives us a rhythm for finding peace, and when people are marked by this, it's going to make a difference wherever they go.
Luke Allen:Luke, oh, I'm up, yep, you're up. I just agree with everything you guys all just said. I agree with all of it. It really is rooted in the Bible. I mean two of the most obvious commands in the Bible Fear the Lord and love the Lord and love your neighbor. I think you can both find very connected to thankfulness. Fear the Lord. Once you fear God and you have that awe and reverence for him, that will lead you to thankfulness for all that he's done for us. And then love the Lord and then love is motivated out of thankfulness. Again back to those studies they've done scientifically, thankful people are more motivated. You know, thankfulness leads to action.
Luke Allen:It's interesting, when I was doing a little research on some of those studies on thankfulness, I was listening to different secular people talk about thankfulness and my takeaway was you know, obviously we should be thankful and practice thankfulness. And they're kind of talking about it almost like doing a workout or going on a diet, like it's a healthy thing we should do is practice thankfulness. But I just couldn't help but think but what is your thankfulness ultimately rooted in? You know, do you just look at those beautiful mountains and you say, oh, I'm just so thankful for this scenery. But to me I say, well, you think that scenery just came through random chance and happenstance, you know? But I know where those mountains came from, the source, the designer, the artist who painted that picture, for us to appreciate. It's such a deeper rooted thankfulness, or a lot of times without God we can.
Scott Allen:It's a foundation or an actual basis, right, it didn't just like happen out of nothing, right? I mean, it's hard to be thankful for something that just happened out of sheer chance and circumstance, right, exactly?
Luke Allen:Yeah, or I'm thankful for my friends. Why are you thankful for them? Oh, because they make me feel happy. What if you truly knew who those people were and who they were created by, and the dignity and the value that the Creator has put into them? It gives you such a deeper appreciation and gratitude, for you know our brothers and sisters around us. So the Biblical worldview really lays a foundation for actual, rooted, genuine gratitude.
Scott Allen:I want to just talk a little bit about other worldviews briefly and, you know, just kind of think through the fact that there really isn't a basis for happiness or not good gratitude, just, and do it fairly quickly. I was thinking of the animistic worldview, you know, which is rooted in this idea that the world is filled with spirits, the spirits of ancestors, witches, demons, angels, and they control everything. It's that worldview that's dominant and much of still today, much of the world, especially rural parts of Africa, asia, latin America and even here in the United States. You don't get gratitude so much in that worldview because the basis kind of the basic kind of sense that we have towards the world, if you're operating in that worldview is fear right, and if fear, it's fear and thankfulness are quite different, you know. So you don't. And then the other thing I think this is, dwight you, often those animistic worldviews are also quite hierarchical and hierarchy, you know, kind of I'm better than you are because of my status or my position, also cuts against it.
Dwight Vogt:Well, I think that the gods are never, they're always malevolent.
Scott Allen:They're always malevolent they're capricious you never know what they're going to do. So it's, yeah, you're always trying to kind of manipulate them somehow to do something. That's good, but you're not thankful to them, so to speak. Right, you can't trust them, you can't trust them, and so that's kind of animism just in a nutshell. And then I'm thinking about the secular worldview, and we've talked already kind of about that in different ways. But I think the heart of the secular worldview is, yeah, this kind of Darwinian idea. There is no god, right, everything just happened by chance. So it's hard to be thankful when things just are there randomly, including your own life, you know. But the idea there too is very much a spirit of autonomy right, that's the kind of the big word in a secular worldview like I don't need anyone, anything that happens to me, it's because I made it happen you know, and I'm, ultimately, I'm not thankful to anyone, right?
Scott Allen:you know, and people get offended if they're, you know, genuinely secular and they're thinking about this idea that they owe anything to God or that they have to be grateful. They don't like that idea because everything they have they, you know, in their own mind is like you know, hey, I created my own life, I did this, it's because I worked hard or whatever. It is I, I, I, and it's very prideful, right? So when you have those kind of ideas, thankfulness doesn't really play in either and that bleeds over into other people too.
Scott Allen:Yeah, relationships.
Chloe Carson:I have a friend.
Dwight Vogt:I have a friend who recently is really growing to know the Lord and he is getting more and more thankful every day. Not only towards the world and God, but towards me and towards his friends. And it's just anyway it spills out.
Scott Allen:I think, for me, though, the one that the worldview that I'm most kind of attuned to now, because of the book that I wrote on social justice, is this postmodern, neo Marxist worldview. That's this woke worldview, and I the thing that really jumped out at me as I got my head deeply into that was just, it's like a there's no basis, in fact, it's a vacuum for thankfulness. It just pushes in exactly the opposite direction. You know, the Marxist worldview is one based on a sense of victimization, right, it's always looking for that oppressor. And how have I been victimized? Well, you're never thankful. If that's your, your, your basic outlook in life, right, and you know there's just grievance. You know it's that, that's what gets kind of. How can I say that's what gets rewarded in this worldview You're looking for? How have I been agreed? What is owed to me? You know it's it very much fosters those ideas, and the other thing that it fosters and this really bugs me, it just makes me angry, honestly is that it wants to tear down history. Right, so it it, because it's revolutionary.
Scott Allen:It ultimately wants to overthrow, especially Western society, and so, instead of fostering a grateful heart for what our forebears have done you know, because I think the Bible right. It wants us to be grateful to God. It also wants us to be grateful to one another for the gifts that we've been given. You're not autonomous, you know you. That's one of the great things about thankfulness is it reminds you that you're not an island. You're not autonomous. You need other people and you need God supremely and you need the things that people in your past have done right. They've they've sacrificed for your good.
Scott Allen:And this woke worldview. It just pushes exactly in the opposite direction. It wants to say there's nothing good in our history, it's all bad. It all needs to be torn down. And I think you know how toxic is that. Like I think about my own family and if I just picked on everything that was bad about people and my family and my history, I, you know, I, just like you can't even function. It's quite serious. Like that would literally destroy a culture. If that, if that was your attitude, if you had no gratitude towards anything that people in the past have done that you've benefited from Again, that really bugs me, but it's so prevalent now, you know.
Luke Allen:I think when you, when you hang around, thankful people we've already mentioned this it makes you more thankful. Thankful people make other people thankful. You just start noticing the things that they're noticing, and you can't help but be thankful for them. You know, oppositely here hurt people, hurt people. I'm sure we've all heard that. And if you feel like a victim, you're going to want to hurt other people. Right, and they have the same status that you are.
Scott Allen:Yeah, and these people have so much to be grateful for. I think of that picture that just sticks in my mind of the young people at Yale University. This is many years ago, was captured on video and went viral on YouTube. And these young students at Yale were just berating their professor in the most profane way, had to do with Halloween costumes or some dumb thing like that. And I thought, ok, just time out, here you are, yale University, how many people have had to sacrifice for you to be in this position of incredible privilege? And here you are with a professor who's you know imparting, hopefully, knowledge, and you know you owe him your respect and you ought to be grateful for all of this. And you're just, you know, just angry, bitter, berating.
Scott Allen:I thought this is a picture. If this becomes, the whole of our society will literally disintegrate. It'll fall apart like quickly. And I thought the thing that is the antidote, right, the antidote, the solution is what Gratefulness. It's just so powerful. But again, it only comes from. It doesn't just happen, it comes out of a particular worldview, right, that's biblical worldview, that that, yes, there is a God who created you and who created everything. Right, the sun rise, the sun set, the mountains, trees, everything that you enjoy comes from him. And not to mention, you know, our life, our salvation, and the fact that he's laid down his life for us and given his life for us and loves us eternally. I mean, we just have this endless list of things to be thankful for, and that's why the Bible emphasizes in all circumstances, right, you know?
Chloe Carson:Scott, as you're talking, Chloe. I just couldn't help but think that it's what you were just saying. I think it's because of our biblical worldview, because I just, quite frankly, am not surprised at the state of the secular postmodern world and its lack of thankfulness, because without God, if we're just left to our self, we're naturally selfish in everything. Yeah, and so with God, we are made to be selfless by sanctification and working out our salvation. But without God we are. We have no choice but to be selfish, and so I just like.
Scott Allen:That's why it's just selfish people aren't thankful, people are right, right yeah. The kind of a practical question I'd like to hear from each one of you. How do you, even when circumstances are difficult and I know for some of the team right now you're in very difficult, challenging circumstances how do you, even in the midst of difficult circumstances, personally maintain a spirit of gratitude? What, what? What are some of the things that you do? Are there certain things that help you to do that? Starting with you, dwight, yeah.
Dwight Vogt:I remember back probably 30 years ago, very, very difficult time of life. We lost a child and I was unemployed and I remember driving into a valley in the morning and seeing fog over the valley and I was overwhelmed with the beauty of that fog and I just thought, god, that's such a beautiful picture, but I had an object, a person to thank for that.
Chloe Carson:And and for some reason there's.
Dwight Vogt:I still remember the feeling I got that morning and it just overwhelmed me. My gratitude to God for beauty, for his I could trust him for his goodness, that Tim has talked about his sovereignty, that we've mentioned. All those things came together.
Scott Allen:Wow.
Dwight Vogt:And I felt extremely grateful. I'll never forget it.
Scott Allen:Wow, it's powerful. Dwight, yeah, I mean, many of us, most of us haven't lost a child. It's just talk about the painful circumstance of that. John, how about you? I know that you guys are going through some trials right now as well. How are you in the midst of those trials? What?
John Bottimore:do you do to maintain the heart of gratitude? Yeah well, just despite all that and before the trials and everything I give, I give an answer that that it's an easy one. I observe my wife and I do, and I do what she does. So I mean, she's a great example of someone who's positive in all things, and that's really important. So it's important to have other people around us, who we can, who we can look to, and all that's true, obviously, for fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
John Bottimore:But most fundamental, most unchanging, is being in the Word and in prayer. That's really the place where we put on the new self and we put off the old self and we demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit. I mean thankfulness, not specifically a fruit of the Spirit, but it's very much related to all of those and so that's an act of discipline, it's an act of spiritual. Disciplines are the things that I think really make the difference and give us this ability to do all of this. And perspective is another thing, although perspective comes from that as well. Perspective allows us to see that things change. It allows us to see that, no matter what we're going through, people are going through other things. We can be grateful to the Lord no matter what, and so it's just so important to keep a healthy and strong and thankful perspective in the Lord and, as Paul said, to live as Christ and to die as gain. So that's a perspective, no matter what we're going through, that makes us thankful, because we know that where we are going is better than where we are.
Scott Allen:It's all good. I love that.
Chloe Carson:It's like no matter what happens, it's all good, right.
Scott Allen:We all get to live eternally with Christ, with the one who made us and loves us. And so what you know, what could happen to me now, like who cares, you know?
Luke Allen:I love that John.
Scott Allen:Yeah, perspective Sean. How about you?
Shawn Carson:Yeah, that's a great question. I think the midst of trying circumstances and life is, I realize my circumstances can change one day to the next, but he doesn't change. You know, he's faithful, he's consistent and he's probably the most or the only consistent thing that I can grab ahold of. And so I just remind myself of who he is, as John said, just reading through Scripture and just remembering and reminding myself of his work in the world, his work in history, where we work. You know, seeing and hearing stories of God's faithfulness and his work around the world always encourages me.
Shawn Carson:You can find some, you can always find somebody with a more tragic story than your own and who are going through more difficult circumstances than your own. And I've been really encouraged by hearing some of people's stories and where they've been. And I think again, it just it's rooted to me in the narrative nature and character of God of he has revealed himself, he's proven himself to us. You know he promises that life's going to be challenging for us and yet he's faithful. And without that trust and without that confidence I don't know where I'd be today.
Shawn Carson:Honestly, you know challenges really come in and difficulties arise. And where would you be, when would I be without him to hold on to?
Scott Allen:I hope you know you don't mind me sharing Sean. Sean has been struggling for the last several years for many years now with Lyme's disease. It's really affected his body in profound ways. And, sean, your attitude you know of gratitude, you know of Thanksgiving and just the way you reach out and serve other people despite those really I mean that's a difficult circumstance has been an inspiration to me, and I mean that you know, john, your circumstance, the way that you guys are living this out, has been a true inspiration to me, all of you guys. Chloe, how about you?
Chloe Carson:Well, this might be oversimplified, but I feel like what's most comforting to me, and my mom especially to, throughout our life together has just been like the reality and the truth that God is sovereign. He genuinely comforts every single need, like he knows the hairs of my head, not as far off also the ground, without his, outside of his will, and not a single moment passes that he doesn't allow for my good and his glory and that is genuinely practically so comforting that every single moment of my life he knows and he allowed and it's for my good and it's for his glory. And, like Sean said, he's proven himself and so my confidence is sure and it's sure in him. And so, yeah, just always reminding myself that God is sovereign and that he's good and just who he is through scripture, like John is saying, that's number one and then number two, practically day to day, is just no complaining because, like Sean said, people have it way worse than you and I feel like that was even instilled in me growing up too was just no complaining.
Chloe Carson:Like there's just no reason. There just isn't, and it doesn't produce an environment of gratitude or worship or like, if you think about the fact that God is, jesus is alive right now and instead of like being thankful, you're just complaining and he's just like I died for you, like there's just no reason to complain, so God is sovereign and no complaining.
Scott Allen:I think that's so powerful and it's like the flip side of gratitude is complaining and and so yeah, very practical kind of way to maintain a heart and spirit of gratitude is just being disciplined about not complaining, right, you know yeah, and it's a choice, like, just like, definitely a choice, because there's always things to complain about, always right, always. You know they're always in front of us and yeah, that's kind of convicting frankly to me, because I still do that once in a while.
Scott Allen:Tim had to step out, but Luke, how about you? How do you maintain a spirit of gratitude?
Luke Allen:Yeah, I love what you guys are saying about perspective. In my life so far God's, god's blessed me with, you know, kind of a cushy life, so I haven't gone through those real dark valleys yet, you could say, and you know, had to practice thankfulness and those kind of places. I can't even wrap my head around that. But when I, you know, I just I have that perspective and I I do see a lot of you guys like you were saying, dad as as inspiration for that, that you guys have gone ahead of me and, you know, gone through stages of life and we're going through stages of life that are just tragic and really hard and Darrow's not on the call but same for him. Life's not easy and we're not told that it's gonna be easy, but we are told to give thanks in all circumstances and you guys have modeled that and it really inspiring way. So I really appreciate that. I also my wife recently went read through the hiding place Cory Ten Boom, and I didn't read it with her, I've read it before, but I remember a scene in that, in that book, when Cory Ten Boom Just for a brief background for you guys who haven't heard of that story, this is World War two and her and her family were Hiding Jews in their house and eventually were found out by the Nazis, taken to prison camps. And this is a scene when her and her sister are in a prison camp and they had to. It was some kind of routine checkup, but essentially they take out all the prisoners and they're just mocking them or ridiculing them and they actually strip them. And in this, you know the worst of the worst, she's in a prison camp, world War two, being, you know, mobbed by, by Nazis, and in that situation, in that scene, she's she just remembers that she actually finds she yet she's actually grateful that she can experience, in her words, the same type of ridicule and shame that Jesus went through before the cross, being stripped and being beaten, and she's thankful that she can experience that. And that's just mind-blowing to me that someone can still find gratefulness in that kind of scene. So, yeah, a lot of perspective, a lot of perspective there.
Luke Allen:I also just on a practical sense for myself um, I like what you're saying, chloe, just, you know, don't complain. Um, I think a lot of times when I'm you know, or like I'm gonna be anxious about something, like you have a big test coming up, um, just flipping it and just saying you know what, what can I be grateful for right now? Think of those five things that you can be grateful for. Um, that can really, that can really help. And then also, I mean, um, even you know what if the worst happened right now? What if I failed the tests? And you know what if what I'm worrying about or complaining about actually happens, how bad would that be in perspective, you know, and it kind of it kind of puts it in perspective of life and eternity and whatnot, and then you can still be thankful for it, and then you can be thankful for it.
Luke Allen:Yeah, oh, I get to take a test. I'm in school, you know I'm learning something like that.
Chloe Carson:I get to fail and be humbled.
Luke Allen:Yep, maybe you can be thankful for that. Um, for myself also, this is a. This is a little bit more abstract, but you know the whole faith and works debate. Um, uh, paul says you know, faith without works is dead. Um, I think a lot of times it's easy to fall into a kind of a legalistic place when you look at works. You know I have to do this, check it off, do the work, do the good things, you know, then I'll be a better person.
Luke Allen:Um, I think Thankfulness is really at the root of that verse. You know, faith in what, who jesus is and what he's done for us Should motivate us. He saved our lives, he's given us eternity, he's given us purpose. What other response should we have to that except for gratitude and thankfulness? And then from that thankfulness, obviously that's going to motivate us to love others, to be obedient to god, you know, to do as he says, to live in the framework that he's given us, for us to live. Um, so thankfulness kind of binds that together. Um, so that state of thankfulness really kind of you know, in a broad sense, over, should overlay that debate of faith and works.
Scott Allen:Well, I think those are all really great ideas, guys, and, um, john, I know that you were you were mentioning earlier, before we got on the podcast Uh, that one of the things that you do, too, is is you kind of keep a journal or a record or just start writing down, um, things that you're grateful for, and, uh, I think that's a great exercise to do, especially when you're in a difficult circumstance or you're feeling down depressed. Um, just, you know, it's a choice and it's actually, in that moment, a really hard choice, but just find the one thing, one thing, write it down, focus on that one thing and then write down two and actually the the list. When you start doing this I'm sure you guys have all done this and I encourage people to do this too it's actually it's like, um, I think it's infinite. I mean, you just don't ever get to the end of it, you know, uh, because, yeah, just even small things, you know, we can be so grateful for the fact that I have this hand and it can pick up things, you know, and I can use it to create things and build things, and you know, there's so many things to be grateful for. Guys, great discussion.
Scott Allen:I thought I would, um, just kind of conclude our time together today on this topic, um, by reading a passage from a book. This is a book that, uh, you, we've talked about on the podcast before. I read it earlier this year, um, while time remains, by yanmi park, um, and she talks about gratitude in here in such a profound way. It just really struck me. And when I was thinking about the topic, I was reminded of the book. And, if those of you didn't tune into that episode or are familiar with yanmi park, she's a, a immigrant from north korea, and she talks about growing up in north korea in this most oppressive kind of Circumstance where, literally, her and her family were starving to death. And she escapes to china and, with her sister and her mother, they become, they get caught up in sex slavery. So she's literally a slave, a sex slave, um, and I mean the circumstances are so horrific, and I mean the circumstances are so horrific and eventually she makes her way to the united states and, uh, just that experience of her own life just gives her an, you know, incredible perspective. And I just wanted to read one thing that she says in this book on this subject she's talking here about. Now she's in the united states and she's actually given birth to her son, um, and she writes this about that experience. She says, uh, it was then, uh, you know, having given birth to her, her, her first son.
Scott Allen:It was then that I realized what happiness is. It's nothing other than a synonym for love and gratitude. Happiness is not material Excuse me Success or recognition, or even comfort. It's becoming a parent, it's being a good daughter, it's being a good friend. It's lending a helping hand to anyone less fortunate. What this meant was that finding meaning in life is not an arduous search that may or may not end in gratification. Meaning, it turns out, isn't difficult to find at all. As many wise people have pointed out, happiness is a choice.
Scott Allen:My mother once told me that without thankfulness, happiness is impossible. When I ask god for happiness, she says he tells me Uh, instead to learn to be thankful. She was right. Despite the indescribable horrors that she has lived through in her life, my mother, to this day, is the happiest person that I know. She's been a sex slave, a rape victim, an inmate, forcibly separated from her children and her husband, a refugee, and yet she is genuinely, authentically thankful and happy. Almost uh, and almost always has been. I never quite understood it, but now I felt that I did. I just was really moved by that. You know the, the circumstances that she and her mother had to go through, and yet here she is, one of the most genuinely grateful people, thankful and happy people that she knows. I think it's just an inspiration.
Scott Allen:So, guys, great thoughts today. It's great to be with you on this important subject and, uh, I'm thankful for our founding fathers and the way that, in the midst of their Uh, or the puritans, the pilgrims that came, in the midst of their horrific circumstances, uh, they turned that into gratitude and they started something that has ripple effects to this day and we still celebrate. I want to encourage all of you. I know that in my neighborhood, people Write that they put up crazy Halloween. You know decorations on their front lawn now, which I'm not a big fan of, but then immediately as soon as they come down in, thank you know, in in uh, november up go the christmas decorations. Right, Don't skip over thanksgiving. This is one of the most important holidays of the year. So God bless you, guys, and thank you all for listening to. Another episode of ideas have consequences. This is the podcast of the disciple nations. Thanks for.
Luke Allen:Thank you for listening to this thanksgiving special for all of you who are listening outside of the us. I know you probably won't be spending time around the table in a couple of weeks eating turkey, but I hope you are able to find time this month to give thanks to the lord, for he is good and his love endures forever. For all of you who are new to the podcast, thanks for joining us today. The ideas have consequences podcast is brought to you by the disciple nations alliance. To learn more about our ministry, you can find us on instagram, facebook, twitter, youtube or on our website, which is disciple nations org. If you'd like to help us share this show with more people, the easiest way that you can do that is by leaving this show a rating On whatever podcast platform you're listening on, or you can always share this episode with a friend and wish them a very happy Thanksgiving while you do so. Thanks again for listening. We're hoping able to join us here next week on ideas have consequences.
