Christianity vs. Science

Is Christianity opposed to science, as we often hear from teachers, professors, and the scientific elite? Or are certain core biblical principles actually at the foundation of science? Today's discussion explores these vital questions. At its essence, science is a search for truth by means of a careful analysis of the physical universe, or what the Bible calls “the visible world.” The scientific method emerged and flourished within the soil of a Western culture deeply shaped by the Bible, and that was no accident. But today, science has been hijacked by those committed to a secular, naturalistic worldview that has no room for God or the human soul. As a result, science is no longer a search for truth. Evidence is ignored or denied if it conflicts with the presupposition of naturalism. This is philosophy or religion masquerading as science, or what many call “scientism.” As Christians, we must oppose it and defend true science as a quest for truth, following the evidence wherever it leads.

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Scott: 0:00

So this is this is now science as a religion, if you will, this is science corrupted, you know, true science is going to push into, it's going to follow the evidence wherever it leads. And if that evidence is pointing to a designer, then let so let me but he's gonna say no, we can't let a designer's foot in the door because we're committed to an atheistic worldview.

Dwight: 0:25

What's interesting on that though, is scientists cannot operate unless they assume design, because otherwise they're going for chaos. And they know they're not going for chaos or going for understanding of something that's actually functioning for a reason that's logical.

Luke: 0:47

As Christians, our mission is to spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. But our mission also includes to transform the nation's to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected the second part of her mission. And today, Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as you rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.

Scott: 1:20

Welcome to the Ideas Have Consequences podcast. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. And my name is Scott Allen, the president of the DNA. And today I'm joined by coworkers, Tim Williams, Luke Allen, and Dwight Vogt. Hi, guys, good to be with you again today. Hey, yeah, we're so excited about jumping into a subject that we care a lot about, it's been You know, most of us have been deeply in the West and myself included, we've been deeply shaped by a secular view of things. And in the secular view, the secular worldview, there's a war between science and religion, and there's a conflict between Christianity and science. And science is that which conveys truth. And Christianity or religion is a fantasy or fairy tale. And it's something that you can believe personally, can be part of your own subjective belief that makes you feel better, or gives you some comfort. But certainly, it's not to be brought into the public square, not into public education, curriculum and things like this. That's the realm of science, which is the realm of fact, this is the narrative that I grew up with, that we grew up with, it's deeply shaped our thinking. a couple of verses, really, there's many verses in the scripture that that you could you could pick from that kind of say something very similar, but I chose, I chose three verses and let me just read them to you by way of kind of setting the table for this subject. First of all, just Genesis 1:1, the very first verse of the Bible says in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

And then Hebrews 11: 4:11

3 in the New Testament says something quite similar. Let me read that to you as well. It says, By faith, we understand that the universe was formed at God's command. So that what is seen, was not made out of what was visible. And then, before I unpacked I want to just read one more and then I'll come back and unpack these a little bit Colossians

1: 4:42

15-17, again, saying something very similar, but in a different way. This is the, you know, the things that we see around us every day trees in the sky, and rocks, and, and, you know, galaxies it through telescopes, and cells and molecules through microscopes and things like this. And but then there's also this unseen realm, this invisible realm. And interestingly, God is, is it's in that realm, it says, By faith, we understand Hebrews 11:3 says, By faith, we understand that the universe verse was formed at God's command, so that what was made, what that excuse me, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. So yeah, God exists. And then he created the physical realm, these two realms exist. And it says, especially in Colossians, 15-17, there's not this hard and fast line that necessarily separates them either. In fact, the the phrase that jumps out at me is that phrase, at the very end, He is before all things, that's the, that's God, He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. So even this physical visible realm, if you will, is held together by God, moment by moment that he's, he's involved in it, it's not separate from him, he created it, he sustains it. And, yeah, he's intimately involved in it, if you will, everything would kind of fly apart or fall apart, apart from his sustaining hand, because he's the creator, the creator of it, I think you have to understand some of these basic things before you can really get into the truth about science, this visible and invisible realm, and the visible, is created by God. And interestingly, it's also created in a sense by man and in the sense that we also have, we have these two realms within us there's, there's the visible and the invisible, the visible is what I see when I look at Dwight, his, you know, his hair and his skin and his body. The Invisible is what I don't see. That's his spirit. That's his mind. That's his soul, if you will, right. So these two things exist within us. And as we create as we create visible things, let's say, you know, I have a vision for what I want to do in my backyard, I'm going to create a certain landscape, it's gonna, I'm gonna put some trees over here and some bushes over here, whatever it is, that's going to be visible, but that starts in the invisible realm. In other words, that starts on my mind, right? Can't see it. And that's very much the same way with God. God can't see it. But that's where it all proceeds from. That's a biblical principle. It's very different than the modern idea which the modern secular idea, which of course, is that there is no such thing as an invisible realm that's just fantasy. That's illusion, everything that exists is just visible matter. And there is no connection between the two, if you will, because there's only one thing at the end of the day. So science then and then I'm going to just ask you guys for your thoughts and reflections on the sciences, is the study, if you will, of the visible realm of the scene realm of this study of realm that we can touch and taste and feel. And that's very important, we can gain true knowledge about about things, through studying the visible realm, through the scientific method through things that we can probe and measure and describe mathematically, we can gain, you know, True Knowledge. But not exclusive OR exhaustive knowledge because there's more than just the visible realm. And science can't really tell us a lot about the invisible realm because it can't be measured. It's not really prone to study using the scientific method. But it's real. And we gain knowledge of the invisible realm through things like revelation, right through biblical revelation about God, His character about what is right and wrong. For example, morality is a very important part of reality. We all understand that there is a certain sense of moral good and evil. But now we're talking about something outside the realm of science that can't be measured, or probed or described, you know, mathematically necessarily, even something as important as love or purpose. These are all really, really important parts of reality in life, but they exist in a realm, if you will, beyond science, or the scientific method. That's a no way to diminish science, though. It's science is very important, but it's just not exhaustive or exclusive. Again, I just want to contrast with the modern understanding of science, which says science is the exclusive dominant way of understanding all of reality, because if all reality is physical, if it's material, then you know, the science is going to be the, you know, the Queen, if you will, that's going to determine all of all of reality. But let me let me just, let me just pause there and get you guys's any thoughts or reactions to what I've shared there in terms of just kind of laying the table for a biblical view? of science?

Luke Allen: 12:29

Yeah, I really like what you're saying about how there shouldn't be really a distinction between the physical and the spiritual realm, in a way. I think they're both, you know, they're both from God, God was created everything he's bored of all use in all and through all. So the study of one is a study the other in a way, I think it's good also to put some words to this invisible realm that you're talking about, like you were saying, Love and purpose, you know, these things that we sciences can look at, and people throughout all of history, things like creativity, and, you know, people want to create beauty. These are things that animals don't do. People want to help others, even at an expense to themselves, which is love. You never see that in the animal realm. Where did that come from? These are kind of the invisible characteristics of the soul that God has given to each and every one of us.

Scott: 13:25

Yeah, they're, they're, in some ways, they're the most important parts of life really, right. I mean, how meaningless would life be without these? These things that you're describing? Luke? Yeah.

Dwight: 13:35

And I'm what struck me Scott was your illustration of you creating your backyard, because, you know, that's not an unseen thing like love or purpose, or teleology or something, you know, but it's real. It's real. And I was looking at my coffee cup, and I said, Yeah, somebody envisioned a coffee cup and made this they created the glass. And when I think of the invisible, making the visible, it starts with an idea. It starts with a concept, it starts with information in the mind. And that results in an engineering plan or an architectural plan, and, and all of us, you can create something, but it starts with the invisible Yes, idea or information. Yes. So the biblical worldview says they're both real, the visible and the invisible. There is a God who did create everything that exists. And they're both important, and they're both good. And we know that in real life, right? Because we all create, and so we know that our thoughts are real. That's right. That's correct. Yeah. Yeah.

Scott: 14:34

So science then is not in any way in conflict with a biblical worldview. In fact, I would argue that science is actually a fruit of a biblical worldview. And I would say that, historically, in other words, the scientific method really the Scientific Revolution kind of emerged in the modern West. In a way that it didn't anywhere else in the world, and I don't think that's an accident, it emerged, in other words from a society that have been deeply shaped by the Bible, it didn't emerge in China didn't emerge in ancient Greece. Why is that? I've often, you know, thought that's a really interesting question. Yeah. Why is that? Yeah. And, you know, I do think there's, there's really kind of three essential ideas that the Bible provides that you need in order to do science. When we take these for granted, but I just want to put these on the table, you know, the first idea is that the visible world that if you will, the material world, this scene realm is real, and it's good. And it's a worthy of of study. Now, many people just oh, well, of course, you know, we would take that for granted. But I would say the reason you take that for granted is because you're you've been born and raised in the West, in a kind of a culture shaped by the Bible. And if, for example, you were born and raised in a Hindu culture, then you wouldn't necessarily think in this way, the the visible realm is actually seen as an illusion, it's not real. And if it's not real, if it's like a dream, then it's not something you can actually study, or an ancient Greece, this Gnostic idea. That, yes, there are these two realms, there's kind of the visible in the invisible realm, but the visible realm is, is is lower, it's, it's, it's kind of this dirty realm, this is kind of this Gnostic idea that the physical visible realm is, is is, yeah, it's, it's, it's kind of a profane, you know, thing that isn't worthy of our study that we need to kind of escape from it into this higher, more perfect spiritual realm, if you will. So different worldviews think very differently about these things. But the biblical worldview says, No, this visible realm, this material realm, the environment, the created world, if you will, is good, because it's God's handiwork. So it's worthy of our study, and are wonder and and you have to have that in order to do science. So that's, that's the first thing I think the second thing is to in order to do science you need you need this physical visible realm to function in kind of an orderly way. It has to be something that you can experiment on and repeat those experiments and describe mathematically, there has to be kind of an order or a design to it even for science even to exist. If it's all just kind of matter in motion and random and chaos, then yes, science isn't going to be possible. You can't do replicating experiments, for example, and you can't gain true knowledge about things. It's just you can't describe things that are chaotic. So then the question becomes, where did this where did the Where did these laws, if you will, where did this design? Where did this order come from in the Bible says it came from God, you know, God is an intelligent, an all intelligent, being that, you know, created this world and imposed upon it an order and certain laws. So that biblical idea, I think, is necessary for science. And you don't see that everywhere. In fact, if you start with a kind of a modern Darwinian secular view of things, there is no God, then laws, these natural laws in order are really just kind of a mystery. Right? You know, they will say things like, they're just, you know, it just kind of existed. But that's not very satisfying, like, Well, why why did these laws exist? So, but they have no answer for it, because in their in their worldview without a God, then it's ultimately it's just matter in motion. Right, you know, so. And then lastly, I would say the biblical worldview was necessary in order to give rise to science because in order to do science, you have to have a particular view of the human person in the human mind. In other words, we have to be, we can't just be part of creation, if you will, just kind of cogs in this machine, this material machine, but somehow we have to kind of transcend it. We have to be able to step outside of it and examine it from the outside and make conclusions about it. So again, the Bible makes sense of this right? We are part of creation, yes. But we are also separate from it because we're made by God in His image. And he's given us dominion over creation. So we can rightly study it and order it and kind of make sense of it from the outside, if you will. That, again, that differs from a modernist worldview where we, we are just trapped in it. We're just we're just matter. At the end of the day, there's nothing spiritual about us. There's no you know, our minds are just products of matter in motion. So if that's the case, why would we trust that our minds can understand or make sense of anything, if you will? So go ahead.

Dwight: 20:33

I have a question, Scott. And I'm hoping you can answer it because you study history. But it seems to me that the modern story is that yeah, you might have had your you Christians had your biblical worldview since you know, Genesis 1:1 but, but really, science exploded when secularism became the dominant way of thinking in the West. And it was secularists believing in materialism, that matter was the origin of life that finally exploded science. So you guys, were still in the dark ages, with your biblical worldview until materialism finally led you into the light. Now, you clumped on all these verses to say, Well, now you believe in science, too. But but your salvation was a materialistic way of thinking, Am I right or wrong?

Scott: 21:23

Yeah, you're you're describing very well, what I would call a kind of a modern myth, you know, this modern myth that. Again, Christianity is in the realm of fantasy. And it wasn't until the emergence of the modern scientific method that we were able to kind of free ourselves from these dangerous delusions and fantasies, superstitions, and understand, you know, what is really true. That's definitely you know, what I learned growing up, right. And, but when you look back historically, it's actually not, that's not what you see. You you actually see the modern scientific method emerging, let's say, in the 1600s 1700s. The early the greatest early scientists were Christians. They weren't secularists or atheists, they were Christians. You know, if you look at Copernicus, or Newton, you know, they were all very much motivated it by their faith, in large part because they, they felt like exploring creation was a way that they could understand God, it's, we can understand God better by studying his handiwork. So it but what happened is that the scientific method, especially during that time period in Europe, it it had such incredible success, let's just say, in describing and understanding why things happened, what was going on inside of these things, like, oh, you name it, cells and thunder, and you know, whatever it was, that you know, they're kind of a rose at that time, this this human pride and the human pride basically said, Well, we no longer need to appeal to God or the spiritual realm, you know, that was what they did in the dark ages. But now we're enlightened and we now can know we can know it all through science and it's it's actually really similar to the to the story of the Garden of Eden right where Satan kind of temps Adam and Eve, and you don't you don't need God. You can you can have all knowledge and you can know all things. And so it was very similar, I think. And so that kind of gives rise to this modern idea. You also mentioned the Dark Ages. I remember reading I don't know whether the history of Christianity by Rodney Starks, but he says one of the myths at the Dark Ages were the Dark Ages. Yes, that is a myth. That's a modern myth. You go back and track he says, No, there was been development of science from maybe Colossians, when Colossians 1:15 was written. That's right, there was a continual progression of learning and discovery. Now, there were certain discoveries that broke open new vistas, I mean, maybe the telescope was one maybe the microscope was another, you know, but there was always this learning that was going on and amazing discovery during the Dark Ages. It wasn't dark. Yeah, there wasn't. There was an explosion, if you will, of this kind of modern science and the scientific method. And why that happened. I'm not completely clear. My guess though, is that it had something to do with the Reformation because the Reformation was just a return to the Bible in a biblical worldview in such a powerful way it led to so many consequences and my guess is that this was one of them. You know, it was it was kind of all new appreciate ation for the material world, the physical world that we can study and we can know something about, in a way that wasn't possible when Catholicism maybe had its Martin

Dwight: 25:11

Luther emphasize Yes. Right talked about the work and farming and yeah, go ahead. Sorry.

Luke Allen: 25:17

Yeah, I'm just, if we're gonna go into history, a lot of people were talking about the scientific method a lot. A lot of people attribute that back to Aristotle. And so you were talking about the Greeks earlier with Gnosticism. And but there was a lot of Greeks who were genuine truth seekers, like they wanted to find the answers, and they were out there looking. What do you say to that? Because those guys obviously weren't, weren't very biblical at the same time.

Scott: 25:44

Yeah. And forgive me for my ignorance about honestly, that Greek history. But there was you're right, there was a difference between Plato and Aristotle, right? They had a, they had a pretty fundamental difference, didn't they? And you see this kind of, in that famous painting the school of bath of the School of Athens, right? Yeah.

Unknown: 26:06

Yeah. I was just thinking about that. Because in in that, those are the two philosophies, which was apparently, you know, they're big debates their entire lives between, let's see which ones which the one and the whole unity, unity and diversity? Yeah, Plato is the one who's always pointing up. And Aristotle is the one who's got his hands out. Exactly. And Plato says, you know, it's all about the one, which to him was kind of a God like, this kind of, we would call our to say, virtual realm, right, exactly the spiritual realm. And then in the Yeah, Aristotle was all about the physical realm. So that kind of brings it back to where we started this discussion, is God is both at the same time, he holds us both intention, he created all and you see this a lot with people like Plato and Aristotle, great scientists who any of us because God has given us minds and understanding, we can look at the physical realm, and we can start to understand truth, you know, Christian or not. And yet, you're always eventually, the further you study truth, and you continue to look for the answers in reality, you'll go down this journey, in a way and at the end, you're always going to be faced with a question, you know, if you actually if you get that far, and you're gonna see that the answer is GOD IS the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE He is the Creator of all. And I think Plato and Aristotle, you see, so a lot of great scientists kind of got near to that point. You see this also with Darwin later on in his life, where they had to question what, what is at the base of all of this? And I think, yeah, that painting really exemplifies that. Well, with the, with the hand motion, I heard a couple of scientists the other day talking about this sort of in an indirect way. And they were talking about how science continues to explore the beyond. And the within. And they were talking about, there's almost a sense that there's they're convinced there's infinity, in terms of outward exploration, and there's infinity in terms of inward exploit biological exploration. And, you know, we used to think, well, you get down to the quark, and you've got there, that's the bottom. They go, no, no, we now know that it's beyond the quark or something, whatever, that it's fascinating. You're right. And they basically, it basically postulated that there's an infinity to how you'll never get to the bottom, I will ever get to the bar. I love this because the Bible again, the biblical worldview says, yeah, there's this there's the there are these two realms, there's the visible and the invisible, but the line between them is not, you know, it's not strong and hard, you know, that it's it again, the the invisible realm gives rise to the visible realm and actually sustains it. So they they kind of, there's this, there's this kind of mutuality. I don't know that between the two, I think that's very powerful. But But see, science right now, the frontier of sciences, is discovering that very thing, right? So it's when it's pushing deeper and deeper into the cell. So they're going they're moving beyond just it's not just some physical little quark. And there's something that they can't they can't describe it yet. But, but there's something that's beyond physical they can try to describe but they can't see it. That's the thing. You can't see it. There's no way to detect it, but they know it's there. So to me, it's there. Just so yeah, true science. If the Bible is true, true science done, you know, with integrity, should affirm what the Bible says, right.

Scott: 29:32

And I think that's, that's an example.

Luke Allen: 29:37

Hey, everyone, as always, thank you so much for joining us today on Ideas Have Consequences. And a special thanks to all of you who have recently submitted a future topic or guest request. In fact, two of our upcoming guests on the schedule were connected to us by you guys. So thanks so much for those connections. And for those of you who are interested in hearing a specific topic or guests join the show, please don't hesitate to reach out and let us know. The best ways to reach us are by messaging us on Instagram or Facebook, or by leaving a comment in the comment section on the episode landing page, which is always linked down in the episode description below. If you're enjoying this discussion so far, don't let the learning stop with you, please consider sending this episode to a friend. And after that, we'd appreciate it if you leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you're listening. Thanks again for joining us for year two of ideas have consequences.

Scott: 30:29

He's really good guys. I want to just talk a little bit more about the modern view of science because we were just getting at it, it really got it. It got its birth during the, during the Age of Enlightenment in Europe. This is again, late 1600s, early 1700s. And, you know, famous philosophers in Europe at this time, they really it was really built on the success of of science and describing reality. And then this human pride kind of arose, it said, you know, we no longer needs to, we can explain everything through human reason and the scientific method, if you will, and we don't want to, we don't want God mucking things up. You know, we don't we no longer need to kind of, you know, believe in that, you know, there's no reason to believe in that any longer. And one of the reasons that I think that that was appealing to them is because it lets go back, you know, if you go back prior to that time, yeah, science existed. But science wasn't kind of the sole determiner of what is real, if you will. So you'd have to talk to some theologians or people that had other, you know, that were involved in other realms of knowledge, and you had to kind of share that. But now you didn't have to share it, the scientists could tell us everything about reality. And there's, you can see the pride and kind of like, we want to be top dogs. We don't want to share this with anyone else. We want to be the definers we wanted to be the priestly class that defines what is reality for everybody.

Dwight: 32:06

And the breakthrough on that, thinking that philosophy was really Darwin, who gave them a an origin story concept. Now you know, where it came from? It didn't come from God. Yes. It came from matter. Yeah, he gave made them intellectually honest again, or whatever.

Scott: 32:24

Yeah, I think Darwin played a key role in this evolution, if you will, of thinking because you're right, Dwight, prior to Darwin, science could explain a lot. But it still had one major question that was unexplained, which was, well, how did everything get it start? In the first place? Yeah, the origin? What was the origin? How did it all start? And you know, it will, you know, up to that point, it was always God, God created it, you know, so, but Darwin said, aha, you know, I can come up with an idea, if you will, that eliminates the need even forgot at the origins, that it started in some dark pools somewhere through this happenstance kind of combination of matter and electricity, or whatever it was. And while law you have the first little living organism, and from that point on, it's just time and chance and genetic mutation, and you've got every single species that you see today, holy, apart from God, we don't want or need God, right. So it then you're fully into this modern secular world that we grew up in, you know, where they would say things like, yeah, if you want to believe in God, that's fine. That's but that's your personal subjective belief. And if it you know, if it makes you feel good, if it makes you feel, you know, gives you some purpose, or some meaning in life, that's fine. But do not bring it into the public square. Because the public square is dominated by science. Science tells us what's real, don't bring it into the public school curriculum. You know, keep it in your churches, keep it in your homes and your own personal private prayer lives. I think a lot of Christians This is I think a lot of Christians have actually gone along with this mistakenly. And they see their faith in this way in this kind of very personal and subjective way. And not as well. It's

Dwight: 34:13

the idea that science can give us ultimate truth. Right. You know, right. So that starts with Darwin. Yeah. And yeah, which is interesting. I maybe this isn't a good point, place to bring it in. But I was reading recently. David Coppedge had an article about us just reading recent research papers and articles that have come out and he was noting or reflecting that, that they were moving away from using evolutionary terms usually have papers loaded with well, there's assumptions that are based on evolutionary process. And these didn't have those they were they were, they were missing and everything was more of, well, it looks like something here designs this or this organizes this or this brings information to them. So for explanations they were going back to there's some organizing principle behind it, we have to find out what that is. So they were going back to it, there's got to be an engineering explanation, as opposed to evolution. And he's sensing that, that there's more and more you realize that the Neo Darwinian doesn't answer the question. Evolution doesn't answer the question, because there's always an underlying engineering element. And we know that nothing is engineered without thought and design and concept. And so they're almost like saying, Darwin doesn't serve us anymore.

Scott: 35:34

No, yeah, you're bringing such an important point of view, I really want our listeners to be clear about this, too.

Unknown: 35:41

When, during the Enlightenment, when the scientists got to the point of saying, now we can know all of reality, you know, apart from God, that was actually a really important milestone, because it was a depart that that alone was a departure from science, that that was not a scientific statement, that we can know all things apart from God or that God doesn't exist. Because you can't use the methods of science to answer that question. That's a philosophical or a religious, if you will, kind of statement. And when you have scientists who are trained to understand knowledge through the scientific method, making religious claims, they're in a way they're outside their lane. And if they continue to function outside their lane, they're going to corrupt the science. And that's exactly what's happened in the modern age, science has been corrupted. Because what they felt like is you've got to shoehorn everything into this

Scott: 36:41

secular, no God, no spiritual realm kind of worldview. And you see this, particularly with Darwinism, particularly because actually, when you look at, and I think this is, you know, this is kind of what you're talking about right? Now, you know, when you look at biological phenomena, you know, human life or animal life or any kind of biological phenomena, you see incredible design, if you will, you see, you know, information, you see all of these things that you have a hard time explaining through just chance, right. In fact, Richard Dawkins, this famous, you know, kind of secular atheist, you know, scientists from England, he's famous for saying, Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose. Yeah, but then arguing from that point on that they're not. So this is this is now science is a religion, if you will, this is science corrupted, you know, it's not true science is going to push into, it's going to follow the evidence wherever it leads. And if that evidence is pointing to a designer, then let so let me but he's going to say no, we can't let a designer's foot in the door. Because we're committed to an atheistic worldview.

Dwight: 37:59

What's interesting on that, though, this scientists cannot operate unless they assume design, because otherwise, they're going for chaos. And they know they're not going for chaos, they're going for understanding of something that's actually functioning for a reason. It's logical.

Scott: 38:13

It's a reason they die, actually works. Dawkins is

Dwight: 38:17

saying it's the it's the illusion of design. But it's that illusion that drives science. Because they know that there's a design behind it. It's interesting, it kind of

Scott: 38:29

it's, it's what it's what some people call scientism, it's, it's, it's this idea, it's that science can explain every single phenomenon. You know, and, or that it's, in a sense, it's no different than naturalism. Or second, you know, naturalism, there, there is only one realm, the natural realm or the physical realm, and science can explain all of it. That moves us beyond claims that science itself can make, because those aren't things that are discoverable through the scientific method. Those are philosophical religious claims that true science should, you know, they should again, stay in their lane.

Dwight: 39:11

And I think you hinted at something, and maybe you want to get into this Scott too, but but there's a sense that science became God, and with modernistic thinking, and there is no God, there's just science and we can know all true through science. So then science takes this elevated position in society and in our thinking, and now it's that and the scientists became God. So now, you know, you look at people who say, I'm a scientist, so you have to believe me. Yes, it has any part of science, they bad science, good science, faulty science, but because they're taking it and sharing it as a scientist. It becomes truth. Yes, that's, and it's not. It's not good science. It's bad science, but because they own the mantle as the high priests today

Scott: 40:00

on the Yeah, they have the authority they have the public authority today than let's say that a pastor or a priest doesn't have today to speak what's true. That's the modern world.

Dwight: 40:11

Yeah. And so now we're being co opted, you know, yeah. By pretend

Scott: 40:17

Yeah. Here's the here's the thing I want us to get to is that this idea that science could somehow exist in a purely in a purely secular worldview where there is no God, there's no spiritual realm, there's no invisible realm. It's impossible, and it'll ruin science, and it is ruining science. And that's what I you have to get back to the biblical view, which gave birth to science. I mean, if anybody should be a champion of science, that should be Christians, because this is part of our legacy, it's part of our fruit. And I think if science is to be saved as science as it is a true domain, in terms of a search for truth, that has to be Christians who really are at the forefront of that, because, again, it's part of our legacy. And if we understand it, within the only proper framework, that it can be good that it can be truly understood that and it

Dwight: 41:09

demands this super high level of intellectual honesty, honesty exam, and if, for example, you want to find a cure to Alzheimer's, and you think you've found something and you see some evidence that points at it. Now you see contrary evidence as well, but you go, nah, I really want to find the cure, because I'll be rich and famous forever. So you throw away the bad evidence and you you follow the evidence that you think support your narrative of finding a cure. It takes a lot of humility to say, No, I can't go there. Because this evidence here says no, yeah, you see less and less of that.

Scott: 41:43

No, you do it. Truth is a high value in the biblical worldview. Right? Jesus said, ality right, to truth and humility. But, yeah, not so much in the modern, you know, because again, truth is something that's invisible. It's something that can't be measured. But But true science demands truth. And I think you're you're also bringing up the way that science is now morphing between modern and postmodern to Dwight, where there is still a mantle of authority that science has. But in the postmodern world, there isn't truth that, you know, it's just power. And it's shaping public narratives for power and control at Sei. And so you can claim science as a way of shaping public narrative, or you know, of gaining control or power. Let's say you want to make a whole bunch of money on a vaccine, if you're a vaccine company, and you tell people you've done really good science, but you actually haven't, and you know, that we're going to create a narrative and that creating the narrative is what's important here and post modernism and not the science but that you use the science, that that's the era that we're kind of, in now, this postmodern era, we don't have time to really unpack that. But we're shifting from modern to postmodern.

Tim Williams: 43:04

I think one thing to say, you know, in terms of post modernism is there's really not, there's a shift everything now is subject to this idea of your truth and my truth. So there is no, it's like taking even the physical world and the, you know, is is the physical world illusion. I mean, it's, we're, if we're departing from that biblical worldview, that sees the world as a reality, that's design, that science science goes with that. And so, yeah, yeah.

Scott: 43:38

Well, guys, this has been a helpful discussion. And I think what I'd like to do is just encourage listeners to, to challenge your own thinking, how much of your own thinking has been shaped by this kind of modern understanding this conflict between faith and science and, and the fact that science is the only thing that can tell us what's you know, true in the public realm, and religion has to stay private, it has to be a private personal subjective, to the degree that you're thinking that way I really want to challenge is not a biblical way of thinking it's it's just the fact that we've been shaped so much over so many years now by this kind of modernist mythology coming out of the Enlightenment. think biblically about these things go back to these powerful verses like the three that I began with and and let's be champions of science you know, we we let's be lovers of science and truth. But again within its proper realm, it's it's it's it's an important field of study and knowledge. It can tell us really important true things that can lead to breakthroughs and technologies and modern science, in medicine and things like this wonderful praise God. But it can't it can't you know, it gets it gets crazy when they start saying Oh, love is just molecules in motion and that's just what they do. You know, no love is not just molecules in motion. There is a Real invisible realm, it's the realm of God and the human spirit. And it's real. And it's, it's, it's, it's at the forefront of all that's visible, it's, you know, it's it's what creates the visible realms. So that's biblical thinking, guys, I'm just going to, as we wrap up here, just look, I'd love to hear any final thoughts and encouragement that you might have for the listeners. You know,

Tim Williams: 45:24

I think, I think an understanding of God, you know, gives us the Foundation for Science and an exploration of science, you know, leads us back to an to the worship of God, you know, and, and to, to awareness of God. And I mean, good science, I think, is like, evangelistic, you know, I mean, like, it points to the design, it points to the beauty, the intention of God, so,

Luke Allen: 45:53

yeah, I just, this all gets me really excited, because to be a Christian is to study is to become more Christ like, so study who God is, God is truth. God is the Creator of all. So if you want to go study God and learn more about God, go study science, study what he's created, look at the art, if you want to know who the artist is, and we have God, God wants us to do that he put the garden in front of Adam, and he said, you know, go and work it and understand it and learn about it and be fruitful, you know, use the mind that I've given you to understand me better. So, you know, to be a Christian is to be a scientist, in a way, you know, science is, at its essence, a search. And it should always be a search, it's a search for, for truth, for God. So, and we should encourage others to get into science and to question everything and to not be satisfied until they find the answer, you know, and this is for Christians or non Christians alike. Because if they actually do that, if they honestly humbly search for the truth,

Scott: 47:00

they allow, if they if they follow the evidence, wherever it leads,

Luke Allen: 47:04

wherever it leads that science, yep, that's science. Ultimately, they will find, they'll find things that point them directly to God. And also, I'd like to encourage viewers, I'm just thinking of this myself, because worldviews are powerful. And we all we all have worldviews that were created by our teachers and our families and our societies and our cultures. And a lot of times those worldview, you know, puzzle pieces in a way that build our worldview. A lot of times, we just don't question those enough, we're not skeptical enough. And that piece will be set in place. And then we move on with our puzzle. And we don't think about how they got there. And a lot of those pieces were set, when we were younger, in science classes, and whatnot. And we answered these very important questions about, you know, what is abiogenesis? What is that thing that can create something from nothing? And, you know, in a lot of textbooks that will say, oh, there's no such thing as a biogenesis. Just something long, long time ago, way further back than we can study started, there was some organism, and then we'll move on with our lives. And we don't question that enough. But let's go back and examine our worldviews. It's really hard to do. But be skeptical. Why do I believe what I believe? Is there another competing narrative or competing facts out there that I can study and continue to

Scott: 48:29

search? Yeah. Amen. Great, guys. Great to be with you today. Good discussion. And yeah, this will be something that we would love to continue this this is a really important area of discussion, but and thanks for listening today to another episode of ideas have consequences podcast at the disciple nation.

Luke: 48:51

Thank you for listening to today's discussion. Ideas Have Consequences is brought to you by the disciple nations Alliance. To learn more about our ministry you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube, or on our website, which is disciple nations.org. We hope today's discussion was an encouragement or the beginning of your journey and understanding how God cannot be separated from the world of science. We hope each of you walks away from this episode with a renewed sense of curiosity to seek out God through the things that he has made. If you'd like to find any of the resources that we mentioned in this episode, plus the list of extras on top of that, just go to the episode landing page which is linked in the show notes below. Thanks again for joining us and have a great rest of your week.