Why Disciple Nations?

We understand the concept of discipling people, but what does it mean to disciple nations? God created not just individual people but families and nations as well, and He works in history to bless all the nations of this world. As followers of Jesus, we all have an important part to plan in this providential plan of God. Join us as we begin a series to explore this concept that is so central to the biblical narrative, and discover our part in God’s plan to bless our nation and the nations of the world.

For more discussions on Discipling Nations and the Kingdom of God, listen to our episode, “The Role Of The Church.”

• Episode landing page
• Website: Disciple Nations Alliance

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 1:19 What does it mean to disciple nations? What are the consequences?
• 12:52 How do we disciple the nations of the world?
• 23:38 The gospel of the kingdom vs the gospel of salvation.
• 34:42 Disciple is both a noun and a verb
• 47:57 Why we’re not talking about humanism here.
• 54:15 The root of these issues are culture and you have to address culture to change the nations.
• 1:00:44 How the British came from a very low point to a much better point.
• 1:08:12 What should rightly motivate us to disciple nations? What should not?
• 1:13:49 We are all part of a nation.

Transcript

Scott: 0:03

You know, Jesus is King. He's Lord over it all. And so his rule his reign, the culture of his kingdom should be reflected in everything. Now to the degree that it's not. And we don't care as Christians, then essentially we say, we don't care if Jesus is honored as Lord in the government, in the economy, in the family, just in people's hearts. And that's not honoring to God, because he's the king. I want him to be honored in every area and his kingship to be reflected in every area.

Luke: 0:44

As Christians, our mission is to spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. But our mission also includes to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected the second part of our mission. And today, most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as you rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.

Scott: 1:19

Welcome, again, everybody to another episode of The disciple nations Alliance, podcast, ideas have consequences. It's great to be back again with you today. Thanks for Thanks for your interest in this podcast, and for downloading it and listening to it, sharing it. We are really grateful. And we'd love to have your reviews of it as well. I'm here today with my colleagues, Dwight Vogt, Shawn Carson, John Baltimore, and Luke Allen. And today we're going to do something kind of special, we're going to step back and we're going to look at this topic of discipling nations. We are the disciple nations Alliance. And I continue to get questions from Christians. What do you mean by that? What do you what are you talking about when you're talking about discipling nations? We want to talk about that, what does it mean to disciple nations. And we're going to actually do this in the form of a series that will extend as long as we want it to, it's a big topic, and it's not possible to discuss, you even really begun to scratch the surface in one podcast. But we will, we will begin to look at the different facets and aspects of what this means to disciple nations. And today, what we'd like to do is, we'd like to answer a couple of kind of foundational questions. What do we mean by this? Just what is this idea of discipling? Nations? And why kind of what and why today? Why is kind of our motivation? Why why do we do this? You know, what should be our motivation? What's correct, or proper motivation? And maybe what are some motivations that aren't quite so good, if you will. So we're going to, as I said, we're going to be looking at all the different facets of, of what it means to disciple nations. And I want to just encourage you at the outset, you know, if you think it seems so big and lofty, you know, I will grant you that. And I think sometimes Christians say, Well, you know, I'm just not interested, it's too big, you know, it doesn't connect to my everyday life. I just want to encourage you by saying, You're wrong, in that you have God's given everyone a role to play in this process of discipling nations and you have a believe a God ordained role. And so it's important that you know what that is, and that you play that role. That's going to get more into the how and the how is obviously the biggest question when we talk about discipling nations, we're not going to really get into the house today. But we're going to talk in terms of just what is it it's important to have our orientation correct and then we can get into the house if you will, the tactical side of it. But I want you to bear with us because this is something that does bear on your life at a very fundamental level. Every one of us has a role to play in this. I think, again, people can think oh, this is for pastors or this is really for the leaders of a nation I suppose you know, these kind of high level leaders. It's up to them to do this work. But no, our belief is that God has given everyone a role to play in this So guys, we're gonna just jump right in and just talk about what do we mean by discipling nations why and what you know, why are we talking about this? What is what is this idea of discipling nations passionate, we start you want me to do you want me to get us going on on a particular direction? On this, I think I think one way to start is just look at the words within that phrase discipling nations and we can just take those one at a time a little bit. Maybe start with nations, the focus here of of that phrase, discipling nations, we've talked about nations. But I think it's worth coming back to again and talking a little bit more about that. The scope of the ministry is the nation's. And I would say beyond that it's the world. You know, this is God's world, he loves the world, For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only son. So God's got a plan for the world. But the Bible talks a whole lot about nations actually. And for me, you know, I grounded in a couple of places, you can go to all sorts of scriptures in the Bible on this really is a thread that runs through the entire Bible. But I go to I go back to a couple of key points. Number one is, is the birth of the nations. Nations were not something that existed at the very beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth. And Adam and Eve and you see families right away, you see Adam and Eve, you see marriage, you see family, you don't see nations really, until you get to Genesis chapter 12. And that's, that comes right after Genesis chapter 11, the fall of the Tower of Babel. And that's really the birth of the nations if you will, God took this kind of mono culture that existed in the world at that time. And divided it into different language groups and different peoples and, and they spread out over the face of the earth. It I was just by way of just excited comment. It was interesting, I did a little timeline thing recently with with, I was talking about this with my children. And we think of these early chapters of Genesis as kind of this little small little blip on guides timeline for the world. But it's not that those were those were centuries long. That's, that, there was centuries long period of time, by the time you get to Babel. So in terms of the whole scope of human history, nations, I wouldn't say they're a relatively new invention. But it's a long period of time before you got to the Tower of Babel and the flood and these kinds of things that it's longer than I thought it was anyways. But going back to back to Babel, you know, if you go way back to the Great Commission, not the Great Commission, but the the, the cultural mandate that's given in Genesis 1, you know, be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, God always had this idea that he wanted his people to spread out across the face of the earth to fill the earth in order to, to fulfill that cultural mandate to to fill the earth with the goodness and the beauty of God's creation of the Garden of Eden. Babel was a kind of a sinful rebellion against that idea, we're going to all live together in one place. Without God, you know, we'll make a name for ourselves. And so God broke down the tower of Babel and this prideful human spirit that wanted to make a name for itself. And he scattered them out across the face of the earth. And that was the birth of nations. And then right away in the next chapter, you see the focus of the biblical narrative narrowing down to one man and one family, Abraham and his family. And then he gives them this amazing, promising kind of commission that extends all the way till the present and will until Jesus comes back. I'm going to raise up from you a nation. And here we start, we begin to focus on nations. I'm going to raise up for you a great, a great nation, the nation of Israel, and through you and that nation, I'm going to unfold a plan that's going to involve blessing all the nations you will be a blessing. And at the end, all nations on earth will be blessed through you. So God's got a plan, a kind of redemptive plan that involves nations. And if you jump all the way back to the go all the way forward to to get to Revelation and you get through the return of Jesus. You see what some called the in gathering of the nations around into the New Jerusalem, the kings of the nations are going to gather and bring the gifts of the nations into the New Jerusalem. So you have this kind of two bookends, Genesis and Revelation with nations on both ends this plan to bless nations and this kind of fulfillment of that plan. And right in the middle, you have Christ you have Jesus and of course the Great Commission, and now nations are central to the Great Commission, right? You know, I want you to go and make disciples of all nations. I think we live at a time where the evangelical church kind of doesn't know what to do with that word nations, and so it kind of skips over it. And it thinks in terms of the Great Commission, it reduces it to the level of the individual, make disciples of individual people. Good, right. That's important. But it says nations, right, make disciples of all the nations. And so Jesus has got something bigger in mind, he's got a scope that extends to nations. And I'll just say one more thing, I'd love to get your thoughts on, on, you know, this idea of nations. But you know, I think nations is I just am coming back here to you guys from from Chile and South America. And, you know, there was a, an important election that was happening in Chile, when I was there, and everyone had the flag out, the Chilean flag, it was flying everywhere. And there was such a deep love for the nation. And I think people, you know, people love, you know, the nation, there's, there's a point of identity, you know, these are my people, right? This is my land. This is the place God's given us, right? And so there's something very beautiful about that kind of pride and that love for your nation. And I was seeing that in Chile, again, you see it, you know, in the Olympic Games, and lots of in lots of different ways. It can go wrong, you know, it can become an idol. But I think it's, it's a, it's a good thing that people have this love and identity for their nations. And, you know, I don't want to get too technical. There's been a lot of debate about what is a nation? You know, I think Israel is a good example of a nation, some people say, nation is limited to people that share a common language, I tend to kind of agree with Vishal Mangalwadi, that, that's one way to look at it. But I think it's broader than that. You can have a nation where people speak different languages, you know, Ethiopia, we're going to head to Ethiopia pretty soon, and that's a nation. There's an identity of being Ethiopian. But there's a lot of languages that are spoken. There's South Africa, Canada, you know, you know, there's different national languages. So I think that, you know, I do think the nation states as we have them today, not perfectly, but I think it's fair enough just to say that's, that's kind of what we're talking about when we think of nations. And I think that that's also, that's also biblical, but just, you know, we've talked about nations guys, what, what are your thoughts? Or what, what do you want to add to what I've shared there about the focus here of nations, and when we talk about discipling nations?

Luke: 12:52

Well, not to add to that, but just, I'm excited for today's conversation, because this really goes along with, like you were saying, the core of the DNA, and at the beginning of every one of these podcasts, you guys, as listeners, will recognize that we start out every podcast with the intro that says, you know, as Christians, our mission is to go out and spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. But that's not all of it. It also includes transforming the nation's and that's what we're talking about today, to increasingly reflect to God's truth, goodness and beauty. And it's really this, this element, the second element of the Great Commission, that we've forgotten this, this discipling the nations and how do we disciple the nations that we're going to be focusing on today? And then also in this series, which we're starting? So yeah, that's, we're really hitting on that intro. Exactly. Just yeah. Just to connect that for you guys. That's, that's the reason that we, we say that the beginning of every episode, is because that's our mission here at the DNA disciple nations Alliance. So yeah, I'm excited for this conversation. Yeah, thank you for that history. Just just laying this out in the importance of this at the beginning. Exactly. It's important to keep in mind,

Scott: 14:05

yeah, there's talk in Christian circles, evangelical circles about reaching the nations. I hear that a lot, you know, we need to reach the nations. And, you know, what, what's behind that is that we've got to bring the gospel, we've got to see people saved in the nations, right? And we need to do it in all the nations. And that's good. That's right. That, you know, as we're going to talk about here, further, the discipling nations goes beyond just reaching people in the nations with the gospel as central as that is. It, discipling the nations means a lot more than just that. So yeah.

Shawn Carson: 14:44

Well, even in the Old Testament, we have the Philistines. We have the Assyrians, we have a lot of different nations in Egypt, right? Yeah. And God created a new nation of Israel. So we said that, but I also think if you read the read The Bible, the Old Testament, it's about God, God is in that work discipling his people, not just saying, hey, I've called you to myself, you're the Israel, you're the people of Israel. You're my chosen people. That's good. Just stay there, just be my chosen people, but he gives them instructions on how to live life, how to do business, how to treat each other, how to treat the foreigner, how to raise a family, etc. So I think, you know, it goes deeper than just being God's family. That's the beginning of it, but it's it goes deeper into every area of our lives.

Dwight: 15:40

Well, and he does that for the purpose of the people of Israel being a nation that will reflect his will on this earth for the sake of the other nations. He wants the other nations to look at Israel and go, Whoa, that's how life is to be live. That's what nationhood looks like. Yes.

Shawn Carson: 15:59

That God's different than ours. We want to follow that one. Look what he does for us.

Dwight: 16:03

Yeah.

Luke: 16:08

Hi, friends. Thanks for joining us today. Today's discussion is the why of our ministry at the Disciple Nations Alliance. And as you hear in the remainder of this episode, it is a huge part of the plan God has for each of us. As believers, this is so important to truly understand and grasp, and then to look for ways that each of us can uniquely apply God's discipleship principles, into the spaces that he has placed us. If you're new to this podcast or a ministry, we would love to have you join us as we collectively understand and seek ways that each of us can play a part in discipling our nations. To stay connected with us and see all that God is doing in and through the DNA, we would encourage you to take a minute after this episode to sign up for our newsletter. To do so just tap the link down the description below. Thanks, again for listening. And I hope you enjoy the rest of the episode.

Scott: 16:58

Yeah, and it's I think you guys are bringing up the point that when we think about nations, we I we think again, it's easy to think about when we talk about nations, it's easier sometimes to think about governments and rulers or leaders. You know, politics. So if you're talking about politics, now, when you talk about nations, and, you know, that's a piece of it, for sure. Ah, but, but you're you're right, Shawn, it has to do with a lot more than that it has to do with families. You know, the nation's, you know, if you kind of bring it down to its least common denominator, it's it's families, you know,

Dwight: 17:40

it's a mix, it's geography is history, it's your legacy, it's your culture, it's your values,

Scott: 17:48

and it's what you do, it's business, it's economics, all these things, how you treat the land. Yeah, you know, all of these things are part of nation. And, and this is why I think, actually, it's so important, because if our, if our focus is reduced to just reaching the nations with the gospel, you can do that, you can accomplish that, so to speak, but not touch any of these other areas. And, and I think that's been the error of the of the church for quite a while now. We've, we've, it's not that what we've done is wrong. It's just not big enough. It's not broad enough. And because it's not part of our focus, it doesn't get done. And as we'll talk about, if we're not doing it, it doesn't mean that somebody's not shaping. So,

Shawn Carson: 18:35

yeah, and I think God has a, he wants to see us flourish. I think that that's another key element because you can be a Christian and be in destitute poverty and brokenness, is that reflect God's intentions for you? No, not really. I mean, uou may be a part of his family, but you're still living destitute, you know, and broken. And what doesn't he want all areas of our life to be flourishing to experience His goodness in every area of our lives? Or if he doesn't, then which area doesn't he want us to flourish?

Scott: 19:10

That's such a good point, Shawn, you know, the, there's passages I think of, what is it Psalm 62:64, let the nations,

Luke: 19:19

67

Scott: 19:19

67, Thanks, Luke. Let the nations be glad and sing for joy. Yeah. And this is God's heart for the nations. He wants the nations to thrive to flourish to be blessed, right, Abraham's commission is you will be a blessing and through you all nations will be blessed. That means we'll be fulfilled with, you know, good things with joy with blessing. This is God's heart. Yeah, for the world, but for nations. And so yeah, it's just such a great point. That's what he wants. He doesn't want poverty. He doesn't want brokenness and you know, drug addiction and beating up wives and you know, whatever. Injustice, injustice of whatever kind? Yeah,

John Bottimore: 20:09

I would say that the how we talk about nations and how we define nations is fairly important insofar as how we then take the gospel and go further and transforming nation. So an understanding of, of that affects what we're going to talk about later, in terms of making disciples. It's further complicated in the modern world of today, and that communications and the Internet and everything can easily cross nations, conceivably, we could have 1000s of nations, as in the original biblical definition of people groups, nations, listening to this podcast right now. In at least the ones that understand English. And so that both simplifies, and in some ways, I think, complicates the, the spread of the gospel and the transformation of nations. But we'll get into it later. But I think, you know, another key point is, is, is love and how love transforms nations and how we, how we love one another,

John 13: 21:30

34 and 35 says, by, by this, all people will know you're my disciples, if you have love for one another. So that's such a critical part of demonstrating things to to the nations, but I get ahead of myself.

Scott: 21:47

Yeah, we'll talk about kind of what I think you're, you're you're beginning to talk about this whole area of discipleship, John, and what does it mean to disciple a nation? Or just what is discipleship? What do we mean by that, but, and love is certainly central to all of this. Luke. The focus here is discipling nations emphasizing nations here for a second.

Luke: 22:12

Yeah, I just I love what you guys were saying a minute ago about what is a nation, and how that goes so much beyond politics or borders, and it goes into every area, music, you know, the arts, you know, food, sports, you know, exactly all of these different areas. So that that is what makes up a nation. So if you work, or you know, do anything in any of those categories, you have the opportunity to disciple that area, and therefore, you are discipling your nation. Yeah, just so cool. So everyone, listening to this podcast, everyone in any country is discipling the nation in any small way?

Scott: 22:48

Yeah, we're all part of nations, it's going back to my time in Chile, you know, you're talking about food and dress and things like that. I asked him, I said, what are some national foods? You know, here in Chile, I honestly didn't know, you know, but as soon as I asked that, then we got on to national dance, and national, you know, these kind of customs dress. And when I did with this group of Chilean young people, they just got so excited, just saw them light up, like, this is our food. This is our dance. This is our dress, you know, and there's even certain times of the year where they, you know, have festivals, and they put on those clothes, and they do those dances, and they eat those special foods, you know, that are unique to that nation. And, yeah, I just think there's such beauty and richness in that, that, that diversity of of nations, you know,

Dwight: 23:38

I'm going to pull us back, yeah, throw it, throw a hammer in the mix, or whatever. But I think about the way we've laid out the basics course, which is our online training, that's our flagship program. And it's got 12 lessons. And it starts out with looking at worldview, which we talked about a lot. And it stuck ends up talking about how you apply that in terms of real life, Samaritan work and love and strategy, and blessing people. But right in the middle is a lesson by you, Scott, which is on the kingdom of God. And then I reflect back and I go when Jesus spoke the gospel, what gospel did he teach? What gospel did he proclaim? And he proclaimed the gospel? We talk about the gospel all the time, we've mentioned that we've used that word probably 10 times already in this podcast, he talked about the gospel of the kingdom. And I think when we struggle with all of this idea worldwide preach the gospel, or do I transform nations? I think we need to take it up to that level that what is Jesus and what is God talking about? He's talking about the Kingdom of God. Because that's, that's, that's, that's a really good way to understand why you would want to bless the nations because it's not just vertical with God. It's always horizontal. It's always horizontal. He created an a culture, a world that he loves and he wants to redeem this physical planet with physical people with human beings. And at the kingdom that makes sense. In terms of our psycho secular divide, it doesn't make sense. Well, we just need to get these people saved. And yeah, they're still going to have miserable lives, and they're going to be poor and upset and you know, plagued with sin, but at least they'll get to heaven. No, that's never been God's plan. It's his plan is the kingdom, it's to bring change. Now, it's not going to be completed, but to bring change to this. So we're why are we discipling nations is because that's our kingdom mandate. That's what God is about when he preached the gospel, the good news. So I think that helps us understand this division, what we think is there?

Scott: 25:45

No, it's it's really good. Sometimes we wait in our teaching, we talk about the gospel of salvation versus the gospel of the kingdom. And the gospel of salvation is just a message of salvation, you know, through faith in Jesus, you will be saved. It's true. But the gospel of the kingdom has a much bigger idea. It's that Jesus is the King. And, you know, he rules and

Dwight: 26:10

He saves us so that we can live Kingdom lives.

Scott: 26:14

So we can, so we can come in live in his kingdom and not Satan's kingdom, quite frankly, there's these two kingdoms that are in conflict. So yeah, that's right.

Dwight: 26:24

And his kingdom is a well ordered life. It's a well ordered nation. It's a kingdom of morality. It's a kingdom of goodness

Scott: 26:33

and beauty. Yeah, true. Yeah, that's right.

Shawn Carson: 26:36

That's I think we've, we've talked about this before, but even you just mentioned it, like, it's the it's a kingdom. It's a culture of the kingdom. And I think when you start using the word culture, and kingdom together, you, you get a picture of okay, you can understand the kingdom of God and a culture of, of goodness of truth of beauty, of flourishing, etc. And then you you look at that culture, and then you compare that culture to your own culture, wherever that is it do you think now, does my culture reflect that culture? Well, it doesn't take long to figure out that it doesn't, right. And then you think, Well, what is God's plan? If we're talking about the kingdom, the gospel of the kingdom, and God's culture of the kingdom, and making that visible or living in the fruit of that in our own cultures? Well, that's where you get to the idea of discipling a nation, right?

Scott: 27:35

Well, let's go there, then. So we're talking about what does it mean to disciple nations? And we're kind of talking around it, we've talked about, why is it important to have a focus on nations and we've kind of said, It's important because God created the nations, loves the nations, and has a plan for nations. And this is I think, why we have to be a little skeptical of people today who, you know, don't have that value on nations. They want to kind of be kind of globalists, if you will. Sometimes I even hear young Christians say that they're, they don't like to talk about themselves in terms of their citizenship. In America, they'll say things like I'm, I'm, I'm a global, I'm a citizen, a citizen of the world. And they they kind of want to downplay their, their American citizenship or identity. And so, but the Bible, yeah, I don't think you know, I think it wants us to be rooted in our nation's and to love the nation's and again, we, we see it and we, you know, we're, we there's a lot of abuse, or, you know, there's in the fallen world, this can become idolatrous, and it can be abused. You know, this kind of negative nationalistic idea. But I think what happens is, we often just react against that by saying, well, nations are bad, you know, we need to get rid of this idea of nations. It's all, you know, nationalism. It's all bad. It's all negative. Yeah, no, no, let's not do that, you know, God's got a beautiful plan for nations nations are part of his plan. And by the way, I think God's plan, God's plan for all the nations is to follow in the model of Israel, God's plan for Israel was, was that it would be a missionary nation. In other words, it would be a blessing to the nations. I think that's nations, at it at all of their best is when they're, they're not, you know, looking to take over the world or, but they're looking to bless other nations. You know, I think that the United States my nation has been at its best when it's tried to be a blessing to the nations. So Luke, you were gonna say something? Yeah.

Luke: 29:42

Yeah. And I mean, when when nations aren't doing that, like you said that aid can lead to a lot of destruction, a lot of harm. Yes. And or when people idolize their nation, and you can see, you know, more of those negative Imperial or nationalistic tendencies, and I think the young Christian who say that I'm a citizen in the world, you know, they're reacting against this, this title that can be put on people, it's usually as a straw man, it does pretty much always as a straw man of this Christian nationalism. But since we're talking about nations, I thought we should quickly address that. That's something that people love to label Christians as. And, you know, we're huge fans of nations here. And that's what we're talking about today. So Christian nationalism. What's, what's the difference between what we're talking about in that real quick?

Scott: 30:33

Well, I think it's just love for the nations as God lays out what that means, you know, as opposed to this kind of tribalistic idea that would say, my nation is superior to your nation, or you deserve to serve us because of our superiority. You know, it's, it's the idea that you saw, like, for example, in World War Two with, with Germany under under the Nazi regime, right? We are superior, so therefore, we have a right to rule over your nation, you know, that that's that that's kind of demonic there. Of course, that's not God's idea, God's ideas that you love your nation, and you seek to bless other nations.

Dwight: 31:19

And the false solution to that is to deny the difference, deny the diversity and say, Well, I'm a member of the world culture. No, you're not, there's no such thing as a world culture. You grew up in an era you have an identity that's connected to your family, your upbringing, the things you eat, what you experienced you, and God wants to treasure that identity. He doesn't want us to be without that. And I think the fallback as well, because there's differences, one of us has to be superior, and the other has to be inferior, including nations. And so the answer to difference is, is sameness. Right? Right. And I'm a world citizen now. So you're a bad person, because you claim to be an American or uh, you know, South African or something.

Scott: 32:05

Now, I think you're just such a good point, right? This idea that I'm a global citizen, it's meaningless, you know, because what is that? Really? It's a cop out.

Dwight: 32:15

And it's a denial of your your, your, your identity. Yeah, you came from somewhere.

Scott: 32:20

you're shaped by groups, you're shaped by your family, and you're shaped by your nation. And that's the way God made it. That's the way God made it. And that's good. Um, son, and that's good. Yeah,

Dwight: 32:28

it's not a bad thing.

Scott: 32:29

That's a good thing. That's a good thing. Yeah.

Shawn Carson: 32:31

If you have a bad family, you don't say, Well, I'm a member of all families.

Dwight: 32:37

Love it, you are a Carson.

Scott: 32:40

And if you have a bad family, that doesn't mean God wants to abolish family.

Dwight: 32:44

Exactly. Redeem the Carsons, that's what we need to do.

Shawn Carson: 32:47

exactly right.

Scott: 32:48

Right. So no, it's good, really good points there. Let's go on to discipling. What does it mean to disciple nations? Again, I think, you know, when we think of discipleship in evangelical world today, we tend to think of it really almost exclusively at the level of the individual, I need to, you know, make a decision, you know, I'm going to be a part of a disciple making process with one or two people or maybe a small group. We don't think about it in terms of nations. It's very personal. And, and, and, you know, I would say, yeah, it means to help people to be, to know the Bible and to walk in obedience to the Scriptures. And maybe we would even say, to become Christ-like, you know, I think that's, that's getting to the heart of it is, you know, a disciple is a follower, it's a follower of Jesus Christ. And, you know, it's to help people to become disciples of, of, of Jesus Christ. So, but people don't think about it in terms of nations, you know, that doesn't make it, it's almost nonsensical to them, what does it mean to disciple a nation? How do you make a nation a follower of Jesus Christ? And I think that's fair. So what we're talking about here with discipling nations, is, is more I think, your idea, Dwight, it's, it's, it's the idea of the kingdom. It's the truth, the goodness and the beauty that you see in Jesus, you know, that he embodies. And it's to bring that in to the nation so that every aspect or every part of the nation is is shaped or is touched by that, that truth, that goodness, that beauty of God of his kingdom. And it goes, you know, it's not that it's not individual. It doesn't involve discipling people as individuals, it just goes beyond that. Yeah, let's get let's get some other thoughts here. Yeah.

John Bottimore: 34:42

Yeah, very much. So I mean, I mean, the disciple is both a noun and a verb. And we're really right now talking about the verb part of discipling the nations and we can literally see the effects and hear the effects of discipling a nation properly as opposed to not. The beauty, the the Absolute Beauty and the order, and the love and the economic benefit and education in so many areas where the principles of Scripture and the orientation to those principles in a society can make a visible effect on the senses. And so that's what we mean to disciple a nation and we use words like transform and flourish and such, because those are the descriptions of what a nation looks like when it when it is discipled. And it back to the noun, it is the disciples, individuals, but collectively, that all the disciples who, who make that kind of who do that verb discipling, such that we see those beautiful effects in a nation and beyond, you know, and also demonstrate that so that the church broadly, is encouraged by that and emulates that, and does it, you know, broadly in, in all of the nations in, in an ideal sense, you know, and at the end of end of time when we talk about Jerusalem and the City of gold. So, the point I'm trying to make, I guess, is that discipling a nation has a real and physical visible, maybe other senses effect on that nation, by the glory of God. And it doesn't come from anything we do, but by his our obedience to Him such that he does that work.

Scott: 36:44

I think I'm, you know, I'm here thinking a lot of Christians that might be hearing this would push back and they say, Well, how do we see this in the New Testament? Or in the Gospels? Do we see Jesus discipling nations? No, we see him discipling 12, you know, apostles, you know, if you will, I mean, you know, initially a bigger group, and then it kind of gets boiled down to 12. And, well, what about the apostle Paul, do we see him out of discipling nations? You know, he's focused on discipling, you know, these leaders of these churches, you know, primarily, what would you how would you respond to that, we don't really see this in the Bible, this idea of discipling nations, we see people being discipled, but not nations, so to speak, Jesus didn't have a focus on the entire nation, he was focused on 12 people?

Shawn Carson: 37:32

Well, I think we've talked about a little bit, and it's the idea of culture. We're all a part of a culture. We, every nation represents a culture, a kind of culture. And we've talked about this lots of times of what, what is the foundation of culture, it's the collective thing that a group of people worship, right. And to me, I see that as the outworking of that is, well, I don't want to get ahead of myself, but I just think you you impacted you change a culture, slowly, you address the foundational beliefs, assumptions, ideologies of a group of people who then it has a rippling effect that ultimately changes the largest, the larger culture.

Scott: 38:29

Now it is I agree with you, Shana. I think what I hear you saying is it's the reason we don't see Jesus doing it is what we do, but you have to see it in terms of kind of smaller to larger, right? And he's focused on the smaller the larger, larger being the nation or the nations. But the smaller being the 12 people that are going to be at the front end of that. Another way of saying it is inside out. I think this process is an inside out process. starts in human hearts, changes lives, changes, families, changes nations. Yeah. But you have to, you have to go, you know, it can't just you can't cut that off at some point means oh, it's just changing hearts. Or it's just changing people. No, it's got to go beyond that to the focus that I think the Bible correctly has known. The whole of a nation, the whole world. Really, yeah,

Dwight: 39:22

I think of like given Zacchaeus he calls Zacchaeus to himself. And it was, the response of Zacchaeus was no longer, don't, don't, don't be a crooked taxpayer anymore. Yes, you're going to be a redeemed taxpayer. You're going to be a redeemed government official now. Yes. So there's a change that happens in that person's life. But then you multiply that change over and over and over and you have a change in culture. It's just logical. Oh, yeah. It wouldn't stop just with him and his little life and maybe his sons and daughters.

Scott: 39:51

It's such a, Yeah, I just really want to underscore what you're saying, too. I think it's such a great point. We, we tend, I think, again, we being evangelicals in our particular culture we tend to, to kind of falsely cut, cut people off at the level of the individual. But we're also social beings, right? We're social animals. We're cultural beings, because we have families, and we're involved in work, and we're just naturally shaping a culture. But we don't like to think about that other part, we tend to think about just what are you doing in your own life? Are you honest? Well, that's good. We need to think about that. But but that's going to ripple out into

Dwight: 40:28

are you creating honesty in your sphere? Exactly. Whether it's business or government work?

Scott: 40:32

Exactly. And God's got an interest in all of that, right? You know, he's he wants to see all of that change, not just your own little personal sphere. Because we're created that way where we, we, yes, we are individuals, but we're part of societies. And you know, he wants all of that to be discipled, if you will, yeah. Somebody was going to say something up there, John. Yeah.

John Bottimore: 40:53

mean, what do you think about the idea that even Jesus, not even not even that Jesus driving the money changers out of the temple, is an act of discipling, and demonstrating, discipling the nations the types of things that ought not to be done, as well as the things that ought to be done? The, so, just the, just of the physical, the priorities that Jesus demonstrated by what ought to be done in the temple, what ought not to be done in the temple is a demonstration not to an individual, but to all of the disciples and all of the people there, that then have an effect on a culture to disciple it. And actually, and in that case, have an effect on the the physical beauty of the temple and the physical beauty of, of the, of the culture? So,

Scott: 41:47

yeah, I think you're you're making the same point, John, which is there's there really is a seamless, kind of a seamless connection between us as individuals and our families and our cultures, and God is interested in, in all of that, but it does start kind of inside of the individual, I grant you that that's biblical.

Dwight: 42:04

Even that illustration of John's, it's like, the reason that money changes was such a huge problem for Jesus was they were ripping people off, you had to you had to make that exchange there, in order to get your sacrifice of your turtledoves, and whatever. And they were charging outrageous rates. And it was done in the temple. And here, they were basically ripping people off in the house of God.

Scott: 42:25

And just to add to that, Dwight, though, Jesus got so angry, because you recall in that passage, he said, This is a house of prayer for all nations, all the nations, and you've turned it into a den of robbers. And so it was like not only what they were doing, which was, you know, being crooked thieves, but they had taken this beautiful purpose of God who blessed you with his temple, not for you, for all of the nations that you're supposed to be blessing.

Dwight: 42:52

And you could take it back to John's earlier comment that he was rooted in love for people. I, I don't want you ripping off my people, as well. That's right. This is not loving. So I'm going to act, I'm going to change the rules here. I'm going to use a whip to do it. Ouch.

Scott: 43:08

Yeah, no, that's right. So it's, it's it's discipling nations is really, it's living out the reality of God, the 10 commandments, if you will, in every area of life, you know, so if you're a businessman, it's bringing those right into how you do your business. Right. And if you're an artist, it's bringing those principles. This is the way we talk about it so much in the DNA. And I really like it. John, you alluded to it as well, that when we think of nations nations have a culture a way of doing things. But at the beginning of that is a form of worship, and every culture is rooted or grounded in some form of worship, either of the living God, or some kind of idol. And that worship is going to shape, what do we say, the foundational principles of a nation. And those foundational principles are going to shape policies, laws, practices, curriculum, you know, all of these things that you know, are part of institutions. And then those just shape the behavior of everyone in that society. Right. So that you know that all nations have that in common they have that you know, that you know, kind of paradigm fundamentals principle policy practice. If it's not the worship of the living God at the beginning of that it's going to be some other belief system. It's not going to be nothing. And so to disciple the nation is to say it should be the living God at the foundation of all of that, that shapes the foundational principles that shapes the, let me give you one example of this just one example and we can think of so many, what's a foundational principle? All human beings have dignity and have incredible value because They're made in God's image. That's a foundational principle. And that's rooted in the worship of the living God, because that's how he made us. That gives rise to a certain kind of policy principle. You know, at all levels, right? We can't like, for example, in India, they used to burn widows, right, you know, can't do that anymore. Right? Okay, we can't we can't burn widows. We can't, you know, we. So and you know, that it shapes it's an it. Here's the deal. I think Darrow says, so well, some belief system is always going to be shaping the nation, discipling it if you will, if it's not, if it's not, you know, rooted in the truth of the living God, it's going to be some other belief system. Yeah. And I think what this is where I get a little bit emotional about this, because I think Christians have said, they've just said, it doesn't matter. At that point, we just need to get people saved, get them into heaven. And I don't care about the belief system that's shaping the rest of the culture, even if it has all sorts of bad consequences, it has no effect to me. No, no. Okay, that's not a biblical way of thinking at all. Well, and it honestly, it doesn't reflect what we see in the revelation of the Bible, because God eventually moves nations towards wholeness and towards holiness. And, and he does that through transformed hearts. But even our discipleship, we tend to say, well, you need to be inner spiritual, but, but what about all the challenges you face in life that need to be changed? you know, you'd be, anyway, we tend to limit ourselves. Go ahead, Shawn.

Shawn Carson: 46:46

I just think the idea of, of Christ, he's the seed, he's the one that's planted, and he says, like, if the seed goes and dies, it will, it will multiply, it will produce a great harvest. And, and that's what our calling is. That's what your calling and my calling is, is we're to, to exemplify the kingdom of God and allow our lives to be poured out as an offering to the Lord that dies and bears fruit that bears fruit of the kingdom.

Dwight: 47:18

goodness, beauty, truth, right? Because I think that the,

Shawn Carson: 47:23

it's the, it's the new covenant. So we have the old covenant, which is God saying, here, this is what you do. And Jesus came to institute a new covenant of a now not only did he show us how to do it, but then he's put, he's put within us, His Holy Spirit, in order to live out that covenant with God, that brings about flourishing in every area of our lives. And I think Jesus came to begin a movement and we're a part of, of that movement.

Dwight: 47:54

And I think that's why we're not talking about humanism here. Because humanism would say we can you can transform the world just by teaching them a good behavior. And, and make the laws, right, make the rules, right? Preach morality, and the world will become what it's supposed to become. And you're talking about the seed of a heart that needs to be transformed. So there is a complete connection has got, you've been talking about this, it begins with the individual transformational heart, it just doesn't stop there.

Scott: 48:25

It just doesn't stop there. And I think that's the big thing that we've got to recover, that, you know, the changed heart that comes through evangelism and the proclamation of the gospel message is, is the, is the, is the, the seed that Fountainhead but,

Dwight: 48:40

and I would say that's why it's that's why Jesus went to 12 very normal apostles, instead of going straight to Caesar, instead of getting on a boat, traveling to Rome and saying, I'm gonna convert the top guy here, and we're gonna have a changed world. He started with these 12 fishermen.

Scott: 48:57

Yeah, he did both, actually. You know, he, I mean, it's very quickly in the book of Acts, you see Paul talking to the kings and the rulers, things like that. So, because they're individuals too, they're individuals too. theu, they have a, they have a prominent role in society. But, so it's, but I couldn't just change the rules. No, yeah, exactly. That's your point.

Dwight: 49:15

that's my point. Yeah. I'm, I'm sorry. You knew I'm reading Grant's book. And and after the Civil War, he changed the rules in the south with reconstruction.

Scott: 49:24

I know what you're talking about. I don't know if our listeners All right, well, Ulysses S

Dwight: 49:27

Grant, you know, reading his biography, but it's so impressive because, you know, they changed the they brought in the the what is the 15th 16th 17th Amendment, whatever was citizenship, right to vote for blacks, but he didn't change the Heart of the South. And so it failed. And what you ended up with was, you know, 100 years of misery. Jim Crow laws. Yeah. But he didn't, you know, he changed the laws, but he couldn't change the heart. Yeah.

Scott: 49:55

And,

John Bottimore: 49:56

That's a good demonstration that government will never be our answer. It's As the actions and the works and the motivations that are consistent with the Word of God that the Lord will bless, especially when they are done for his honor, and glory. And that was, that was a huge demonstration there that things that are just done by government, fiat or or by edict do not, do not necessarily make the kind of change, it's got to come from the heart. And it has to do a lot of other things around charity and other things. We don't want to get us off topic here. But charity and all is, is another thing that we've kind of given to the state and look at the effects of that, or lack of effects.

Scott: 50:39

We're getting into a little bit of the how, you know, how does this happen? It's it's inside out, you know, it starts in human hearts through the power of God. And, you know, the whole idea of regeneration bring good things to life. But then it works its way out in society, and eventually should change laws and structures and systems. But that's different than like you were saying to it, if you start at the level of laws, policy structures and systems, I mean that's what Marxism does, right? You know, if we just change the system, if we just have some revolution, overthrow the system Institute, new government will get rid of all corruption. It never happens. It never happens. You know, the new one is just as bad as the old one because they don't go to the root of the problem. The Bible does. It goes to the root the foundation, and it's God's work at that level. It's God that does that work. Although he he we work with him. I think what Christians have done it just cut it off too quickly. They've just cut it off, you know, and or they've said something like this, a very prominent pastor I was listening to recently. He wasn't, that he said, I don't care about the nation's, I don't care if they're corrupt, broken, there's, you know, high rates of violence. No, I care about that. But our job is just to get people saved and churches planted and then everything else will take care of itself. It'll all kind of work its way out from there. How would you respond to that guys, because I hear that quite a bit. You know, just that's, that's that's the goal. Just get to that point. That's what we measure our success on. And then everything else is going to take care of itself naturally.

Dwight: 52:16

I think about Arturo Cuba' illustration of Guatemala. And he was talking about how it was so Christianized, 30-40 years ago, and yet, there was people say there was a church churches on every corner churches on every corner, that when he visited there and work there, yeah. And yet it also had the highest level of violence, it had the highest level of family violence. And it was it was he said, This can't be. And it's because yeah, they there's a solid, a theology of salvation that's spiritual only, that doesn't say this is to change your life and your community, and ultimately, your nation. And we just, there's a theological problem.

Scott: 52:59

Yeah, exactly. Do it. And that's what I want to say if if that's the example that we're setting when we go out to the nations is, you know, the, the purpose of the church that you know, what it means to disciple nations is to get people saved and plant churches. That's what they're going to learn, and they're going to replicate that. But you're never going to get into issues of culture, family politics, it just never gets touched. And so I think that's it's a faulty kind of idea that if we're going to see biblical principles, shaping and changing those areas, there has to be some intentionality, some strategy, some focus on that. It can't just be get people saved, put a church, it all just happens by, you know, osmosis. It's the foundation for that happening, you know, but you have to have a focus a strategy that goes beyond that. Other Christians will say, but that's dangerous, because now we're doing missions drifts, right? You know, that's taking the focus off of that main priority of just getting people saved in churches planted, it's going to water things down, we're going to lose our focus, we can't do everything. Well, it's how do we respond to that?

Shawn Carson: 54:15

a major assumption is there, that God only cares about the spiritual. That's a huge assumption that well, God doesn't really care about politics. God doesn't care about economics. God doesn't care about the arts. God doesn't care about education. He only cares about spiritual things, which is, that's not true. We know that's not to be true. But I think also something that DNA talks, two things that we, I've really appreciated is that everything is downstream from culture. So education is downstream. Politics is downstream. Everything's downstream from culture. So the root of these issues are culture and you have to address culture, to change economics, to change politics, to change education. Yes, and with without that, I mean, Nancy Pearcey gives a great example of a guy who said, Hey, I'm a lawyer, people encouraged me to go to Washington, DC, I can impact the most change at Washington, DC. So I became a representative, I went to DC and realized, you know, I'm not going to change the culture here. But his paradigm was wrong, his idea was that if we just change the laws will change culture, but culture is actually a reflection in the laws. And I think when we don't see it that way, then we do, we get misguided and we get off track, we don't see the kingdom being birthed and worked itself out throughout culture, culture can stay the same without ever addressing these issues. Yes. You know,

Scott: 55:52

yes, I Yeah. I think of our current kind of American culture right now, and how, because the church hasn't had a focus on discipling the nation, you know, the nation has been discipled, if you will, it's been shaped the culture has been shaped by a different, you know, worldview, a kind of a Marxist kind of cultural Marxist kind of worldview, the woke worldview that's now shaping so much of our society. And if I look at how that happened, what I see is people that were, they didn't, you know, they, they were very strategic and intentional, we need to focus on families, we need to focus on education, we need to focus on laws, we need to focus on business. And they had a, you know, I give them that. They had a, they had a plan and a strategy to disciple the nation that were there, and they were effective at it. So it goes beyond we can't I think as church we have to, we have to have that same kind of commitment and strategy. Yes, it does start with changed hearts and minds. And the gospel is at the front end of that in terms of people being saved, but it's not. I think another reason I feel so strongly about this is because we are cultural beings, right? We're out there in with our families, working in the culture, doing cultural things all the time every day. But if we aren't focused on that, then that all gets undervalued. And we just say your only values is kind of you as you're sharing the gospel with other people. And you know, and I'm thinking, No, that's not quite right. That's not the way God wants it to be.

John Bottimore: 57:24

These are, these are reinforcing to one another as well. I mean, that very much a family or community or neighborhood that is, has been visibly changed through the gospel, and then loves one another and makes changes and reaches out to one another is very much a light that will continue to, to grow the church, the very much the salvation and church planning that people say is the only thing that needs to be done. So it's so it's both if you're just stopping it evangelism and church planting, as we've, as we've said here, it's, it's not enough. And back to the John 13 verse by this all people know that you are my disciples, if you have, if you have love for one another, that demonstration of love for one another is a huge witness for the church and the church to grow and multiply.

Scott: 58:17

Let me, before we go on to and we are running out of time, but I do want to touch on the why I think the motivation, but I think there's one more really important point I want to make here under discipling nations kind of is just in terms of what is this thing? Because people often ask, what can you give me an example Scott of a nation that's discipled? Like, what does it look like? You know, and what I want to say in response to that is that can I give you an example of a nation that's disabled? I would say? No, not really, because we're all the nations in a sense, are kind of in process with this. And that process isn't necessarily a linear process of just continually becoming more and more like Christ. This is a process, it's got ups and downs, advances and retreats. It's kind of a messy process, and we never get to the end of it until Jesus comes back. Okay. And I want to draw a parallel to a, I want to, you know, the parallel it draws. We're more familiar with this at a personal level. You know, can you tell me somebody who's, you know, who's been discipled, who's completely Christ-like, no, no, but I can tell you people that have gotten a lot further down that road than others. You know, and, you know, and even for those people, it wasn't a linear process. There might have been times where they back slid and, and, you know, things got bad for a while, but God's committed to our sanctification to making us Christ-like, it's going to be I completed in the future at this time of glorification when when, you know, when, when, when that process is completed. And I think there's a parallel to that with nations. You know, I think that. Can I point to you a discipled nation? No. But I can point to you examples of nations that have been discipled. In the sense that the truth, the goodness, and the beauty of God has made a real impact. It's changed the laws. It's changed the policies. It's changed the way people are treated. You know, go ahead. Dwight. Well, I'm

Dwight: 1:00:31

thinking of you. You can point them. We have one article on this, I think of Wesley's England. Yes, exactly. Once you mentioned that. I mean, if somebody wants to seize an impact, and didn't you talk about ups and downs, I mean, England has really had ups and downs. But there was a time when they made they came from a very low point, to a much better point.

Scott: 1:00:50

Oh, yeah. What was that? Oh, you know, there was just at that time, this is England before the Wesleyan revivals. And before, you know, the work of Wilberforce and the Clapham sect, you know, and they are such a great example to us of what it means to disciple nations. We can talk more about that, but, but yeah, England before all of that was it, you know, even though it had a lot of Christian influence, earlier, it had fallen into corruption, there was a lot of, you know, there was just a lot of alcoholism, there was a lot of gambling, there was just a lot of debauchery, you know, I mean, it was a mess at that time. Things changed significantly, because the gospel was preached through people like Wesley and Whitfield. And the nation was impacted from the inside out. Not everybody, not perfectly, but significant progress was made. And then on that foundation, you had people like William Wilberforce and the Clapham sect, getting very strategic in terms of the nation, how do we bring this into the prison systems? How do we bring this into the way the poor are treated? How do we bring this into government? Well, we have to end the slave trade, you know, that didn't just happen, because there were churches in England, somebody got very strategic about that. Well,

Dwight: 1:02:05

and it was a revival that started with a change of heart, but had to be expressed through making things right now that we're now that God has made us right, how do we make things right, because that's his calling on our lives to make things right, and sort of the foundation of righteousness. And God, that's his point. And that's

Scott: 1:02:25

in there was a work that that there was so much goodness that came out of that for England, and also because England had incidents around the world, you know, there was, you know, positive impacts in the whole British Empire. You know, we just actually I was thinking about this, when we watched the Queen's funeral here last week, it was, and there was a power, a majesty, and a beauty to that whole thing. And, and I thought, and yet, at the center of it was the Bible, and they read verse after verse from the scriptures in Westminster Abbey, at her, you know, at, at her funeral, and to me, it was very moving, I thought, the glory, the goodness, the beauty of this nation is rooted in the scriptures, they may have forgotten that, but they come back to it at that point. And then the Queen knew that and the Queen herself knew that was rooted in that, she really was, and she has she, her fingerprints were all over that ceremony, but it was, it was the Bible, you know, that was at the root of that. So, ya know, I think in our own nation, you know, we have seen incredible progress, but also retreat, right? So it's not this linear upward progress. But the so what do we do is that, you know, no, we do it, we, you know, we, that's our calling to work, in light of what God wants to see happen in the future in the present. Does that make sense? Yeah, wherever going?

John Bottimore: 1:03:46

Absolutely. We strive ahead, knowing what the Lord wants from us. And we're both in the now and not yet have it. But exactly your question. I would, I would point that question or to look the, to look back the other way. Let's, let's look at all of the nations that are intentionally atheist, and that intentionally block the church. And listen, let's look at the effect of that compared to nations where religious freedom abound, and we can very quickly see the effects, the negative effects of that, and the killings, and the economic problems and all of the other,

Scott: 1:04:32

just the architecture of this, you know, you name it at every level, you know, right.

John Bottimore: 1:04:36

Absolutely. So why we never will until Christ returns again, see something that is a fully discipled nation, we can very quickly see the effects of the opposite of that and in atheism or any other system that isn't, that isn't driven by Christianity,

Scott: 1:04:55

Vishal Mangalwadi and all of his work on the nation of India is, you know, is just somebody I always point people to look, because Vishal really gotten down into the details of England the or excuse me, India, how India was changed through the work of Christian missionaries and the working of that out in every sphere of society, agriculture, democracy, education. Is India perfect as a discipled nation. Nobody's going to say that, has it changed dramatically, in a positive way? Absolutely. Another book I point people to is how the Irish saved civilization. Because it looks at the example of how Ireland itself as a nation went from being you know, just this brutally tribalistic country before St. Patrick, you know, the missionary, and how it was literally transformed within a generation within a very short period of time. It's a great little case study of now what I say Ireland is, this is a disciple example of a discipled nation, no. But you go back and you look at the work that was done over time, it's never perfect. It's always there's always gains and losses. But it can be real and it can be God honoring and, and just speaking of God honoring, I want to just go to that right now and talk about why do we do this? What's our motivation? I, I hear a lot of I hear in my own kind of experience, guys, I hear a discussion that goes something like this amongst my fellow Christians. Well, when you talk about discipling nations are it smacks of pride and kind of hubris like you think you can transform a nation that it's crazy, you know, what, who do you think you are? You know, that's just, you know, it's, you know, it's, sometimes people use the word triumphalistic, prideful, you know, and so consequently, kind of the reaction to that is to be much more humble and don't do anything with that. Or just not be humble means just, you know, get people saved, and leave it at that, you know, or whatever it is just hold it in your lane, stay in your lane, right.

John Bottimore: 1:06:56

That's what it is, though, Scott, it's an excuse not to do anything. None of us would say that we transform nations, the Lord does that we're just obedient to his calling, and he makes the fruit. We are just just the obedience seed, he causes the watering and the grace and the and the flourishing of it.

Scott: 1:07:19

Yeah, I think that's exactly. You know, it's such an important point that no, this isn't this, we're not doing this. I, you have to be careful on that. We're not doing this. We have a role to play in this though. I mean, that's just the way God works with people, right? He, we don't sit on the couch, and he does all the work. At the same time. It's not our work. You know, it's his work at the end of the day, because he's, he's created everything. He's created us, He saved us. He's empowered us through His Holy Spirit, any kind of glory that comes from this at the end of the day all goes back to him. So that's, that's a whole other discussion we could have. It's a really important one, though. Yeah.

Dwight: 1:07:58

Well, we're definitely finite. I listened to a podcast on that recently and it's just yeah, the our friend fitness, we need to remember how finite we are. Yeah, but I think of what you just said, Scott. And what John said earlier, you know, what is our motivation? And I think the words God honoring, and love for neighbor, cover most of it, yeah, or should. Yeah, I mean, that's God honoring this, this evil thing that's happening in my presence, and I can stop it, shouldn't I do that? Because that's God honoring, he doesn't want that he doesn't want evil to flourish. She doesn't want that to happen. So we act in a God honoring way and the other is love. If I really care about this person, and they are trapped in deception and the path that that's taking them down that will ruin their life literally ruin their life. Should I not step in and and out of love?

Scott: 1:08:53

out of love.

Dwight: 1:08:53

out of love?

Scott: 1:08:54

Yeah, exactly. I

Dwight: 1:08:55

really care one I mean, we do other kids you know? Absolutely. It's gonna hurt you but I'm going to stop you because it's not good for you.

Scott: 1:09:03

ya. And that love I think is just being obedient to the command the great command in the New Testament love your neighbors yourself. And who is my neighbor? It's, It's, It's everybody. You know, we the especially the one in need, you know, that you see. So yeah, love. For me in terms of the correct motivation, you know, it gets to that famous quote from Abraham Kuyper. There's not a square inch in all of human existence over which Jesus who is Lord of all does not call it cry out, it is mine! You know, Jesus is King. He's Lord over it all. And so his, his rule, his reign, the culture of his kingdom should be reflected in everything now, to the degree that it's not, and we don't care as Christians, then essentially we say, we don't care if Jesus has honored his Lord, in the government, in the economy, in the family, just in people's hearts. And that's not honoring to God. because he's the king, I want him to be honored in every area and his kingship to be reflected in every area. So I think that's a correct motivation that's honoring of God, you know, it's his. And it should reflect the fact that it's his. And he's, he's got a heart for the desire for it. We need to be about that. Other thoughts from you guys on this question of motivation? What should what should rightly motivate us to want to disciple nations?

Luke: 1:10:29

Well, yeah, I loved your comparison between discipling nations. And then you were saying how there's no perfectly disciple nation, just like there's no, you know, Christian who's made it, you know, they've been fully sanctified, and they've become fully Christ. Like, it's exact same way, we all know, we have a call to sanctification. When Jesus left, he gave us the Holy Spirit to be our helper. Yes, as we are sanctified. Same thing with the nation's God gave us the Holy Spirit so that we could, in a way sanctifier disciple our nations. And that's an ongoing process that you see the ups and the downs with, but yeah, I mean, the Holy Spirit, we always think of the Holy Spirit as individual Helper, the Holy Spirit is also given to the nations, yes, to help the nations reflect the god.

Scott: 1:11:16

I think I think it helps in our motivation to, to understand that this is a not perfect, it's a messy process to I think, you know, this idea that we can somehow arrange things in such a way if we get the right leaders in place and the right laws in place. And as we if we, as Christians can put these things in place, then, you know, will will will achieve this kind of end. That can smack of pride or hubris, or, you know, and I don't I don't think that's correct, I think we have to, to, to recognize that. You know, until Jesus comes back, this is never going to work its way out perfectly. And it's always going to be God. And in his strength, even though he gives us a real role to play. And we do need to be strategic. We have to, we have to recognize those two points, that it's messy, it's not ever perfect. And that it's all ultimately up to him, even though he calls us to be obedient to him.

John Bottimore: 1:12:17

Yeah, man. So to me, the biggest motivation to, to act is to honor Him and to be obedient to Him and to believe what he says in his his word. If we ask anything in his will, it will be done. So I love the beginning of Operation world, you know, the book that has all the different countries and what we can pray for them and everything. It says, When man works, man works. When man prays, God works. And so if we pray and do the actions that come out of prayer, we know that God will bless that and we know that he will be honored. So that's such a, it's such a motivating and ennobling thing to do to drive us to action, knowing that He will bless these things if they're within his will.

Scott: 1:13:10

Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, getting back to what you're saying too Dwight about love, you know, God, we know God loves people. And that should motivate us to love people. But God also loves nations, and that should motivate us to love nations to love our nation, and to love the nations of the world. And to seek their welfare to seek their blessing, you know, their goodness, I think that's, that's, that's this is all we're talking about motivation. Why do we do this? And John, you're right. I like that. You just brought up the word obedience. This is just ultimately, you know, it's out of obedience to the fullness of the calling that God's given us. So,

Shawn Carson: 1:13:49

I don't know if you, you know, what you hear today, it seems, "well, I, you know, I hate my nation. I don't think America is good. Tear it down, rebuild it," you know, lots of stuff. And that goes globally. I mean, there's been some movement that seems to be happening.

Scott: 1:14:09

Yeah, we're in this kind of anti-nation globalist type type of time, in some ways, right? Yeah.

Shawn Carson: 1:14:15

And I think, you know, sometimes we, we don't recognize the goodness that we have around us, and why we have that goodness, where did it come from? And I think, if anything, smacks of pride, it's that, that idea that, you know, we I am who I am because of myself, not because of the people around me, and the influences that others have had. Therefore, I think, if we don't, if we don't under, understand the idea that there is a collectiveness of us as individuals, that we have influences on each other, and it's only me, then why would I care about the nation? I don't care about it. You know, tear it down. Whatever, it's not going to affect me. But if I'm if I'm a part of something collectively good, and that we, when we look at we say, well, there's brokenness here and brokenness there. Well, that's not my problem. That's their problem, then, you know, again, we just elevate the self above the, the, the group and that way, and then it's somebody else's problem to deal with. And I think we need to, we need to be called out to say, No, we are a part a nation represents a collective group of people that are working for the betterment of each other. And as the church, maybe God calls us to be the center of that, to work together for the betterment of those around us, not just for my own good and my own well being, maybe, you know, maybe I can live the rest of my life and comfort and, and prosperity. And I don't care about who comes be after me, you know, or those that are around me, I just care about me. I think the motivation needs to go beyond just me to caring about others, more than I care about myself. Yeah, no,

Scott: 1:16:14

it's really good Shawn. When you're back to love your back to love and God's called us to love, you know, our families, and our communities, you know, in our nation, ultimately, you know, and we have a responsibility. I love the point you just made to that nations, it's not just the people who are living here now, it's the people who came before us who built the nation. And the people who come after us that live in the nation. Yeah, you know, it's, it's, it's thinking in terms of that bigger picture of nations as well. Guys, it's been such a good talk. We talked today about what does it mean to disciple nations. What does that mean? We talked about nations, we talked about discipleship, and why, you know, we kind of talked about what and why, what should be our motivation in doing this? We didn't, we touched on a little bit of how, but we're gonna get into that, you know, in upcoming episodes a lot more than that. That's where we need to spend a whole lot of time and I think if you're thinking what, you know, how does this relate to my daily life, having the correct orientation, thinking about things in the right way is so important. I know it's not something you can necessarily take home and immediately put into practice, but boy, you've got to be kind of moving in the right direction with the right perspective, or all of those daily actions are going to, you know, not be contributing to the right thing. So, you know, we are kind of talking at a high level, but I, you know, this is this process of discipling nations, it doesn't just involve politicians, or this involves everybody. And I'm convinced of that. You know, and we're going to get more into that. How does God do this? How does he bring this into? How does he work through individual people, even simple people, you know, to do this. So we'll talk about that in future episodes. But for now, I think we'll we'll wrap it up. And, guys, thanks for just a wonderful discussion. And thank you for listening to another episode of ideas have consequences.

Luke: 1:18:18

Thank you for joining us today. Like my dad just said. In the future episodes of this series, we will be focusing on the how we can apply these lessons that we learned today into our lives. We are passionate about this message and I hope you have caught a vision for discipling urination throughout the discussion today. While you were listening if someone came to mind who is searching for ways to disciple those around them, please feel free to invite that person to listen to this episode and join us as we continue to unpack how each of us can prepare ourselves to be used by God to disciple our nations. Thanks again for listening and have a great rest of your day.