Ideas Have Consequences
A Game Plan for Post-Christian Cultures with Lennox Kalifungwa
How can we really build Christ-honoring cultures these days? How should our approach be different from past generations now that we live in a time when there is often a negative perception of believers? This week’s guest, Lennox Kalifungwa from Zambia, shares practical ways we can shape cultures that reflect the truth, goodness, and beauty of God’s Kingdom. We discuss an inside-out strategy, beginning with personal transformation that extends through our relationships and vocations. It’s essential that we see ourselves as builders rather than consumers of culture, being proactive rather than reactive to culture wars, and strategically choose which issues to engage in. Lennox helps us consider how we can influence more than our immediate circles and reminds us of the profound impact that biblical values can make through faithful generations. Lastly, we emphasize the power of joy, laughter, and even satire for believers living in sobering times. Join us as we aim to shape cultures that align with God's original design for humanity.
- View the transcript, leave comments, and check out recommended resources on the Episode Landing Page!
- Learn more about DNA’s free online Kingdomizer Training Program: Truth and Transformation.
- Disciple Nations Alliance Website
How can we really build Christ-honoring cultures these days? How should our approach be different from past generations now that we live in a time when there is often a negative perception of believers? This week’s guest, Lennox Kalifungwa from Zambia, shares practical ways we can shape cultures that reflect the truth, goodness, and beauty of God’s Kingdom. We discuss an inside-out strategy, beginning with personal transformation that extends through our relationships and vocations. It’s essential that we see ourselves as builders rather than consumers of culture, being proactive rather than reactive to culture wars, and strategically choose which issues to engage in. Lennox helps us consider how we can influence more than our immediate circles and reminds us of the profound impact that biblical values can make through faithful generations. Lastly, we emphasize the power of joy, laughter, and even satire for believers living in sobering times. Join us as we aim to shape cultures that align with God's original design for humanity.
- View the transcript, leave comments, and check out recommended resources on the Episode Landing Page!
- Learn more about DNA’s free online Kingdomizer Training Program: Truth and Transformation.
- Disciple Nations Alliance Website
We're not called to simply be consumers of culture. Dare, I say, we're not even here to necessarily be redeemers of culture, although there's an element in which we're doing that. I think we're called to be builders of culture, and so I think the way we view ourselves is critical. We ought to see ourselves as culture builders and not just cultural survivors or cultural consumers. We ought to see ourselves as culture builders.
Luke Allen:Hi friends, welcome to Ideas have Consequences. The podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. Here on this show we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world, to all the nations, but our mission also includes to be the hands and feet of God, to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected this second part of her mission and today most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.
Scott Allen:Well, welcome everybody to another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. I'm Scott Allen, I'm the president of the DNA and joined today by team members Luke Allen and Dwight Vogt, and really blessed today to have back with us again Lennox Kalafungwa from Lusaka, zambia. Lennox, it's great to see you. How are you doing?
Lennox Kalifungwa:I am doing well. It's always a privilege getting to spend time speaking with you, gentlemen, so thank you so much for this. I look forward to it.
Scott Allen:So great to have you back, Lennox, and, if you missed the earlier discussion that we had with Lennox, a really great one. Just a little bit about Lennox he is a writer, he's a speaker, a teacher, and he focuses on topics of culture and politics and community development from a Christian or a biblical perspective. As I mentioned, he is in Lusaka, Zambia, and he's involved there in just a whole number of efforts to build a distinctly Christian culture, particularly in the area of media and education. He's quite a prolific writer and very involved on social media. You can connect and we'll talk more about this at the end, too, about how you can connect it to what Lennox is writing. It's always very much worth reading.
Scott Allen:He's got accounts on all the social media platforms, but he's also had articles that he's written appear in some really prominent outlets, including the American Thinker, the Sentinel and even Forbes magazine American Thinker, the Sentinel and even Forbes magazine. So, Lennox, we love having you because we talk about things that are dear to our heart, about how do we see positive change, biblical change, in our cultures. But you bring, of course, an awareness of what's happening in the United States, but also a uniquely African perspective to this, which we love. So anyways, great to have you back.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Well, thank you so much, Scott. I look forward to it.
Scott Allen:Yeah, and today's topic, we we were thinking about tactics, about how do we, how do we, at a tactical level, if you will, how do we go about the, the work that we have as Christians to be salt and light and to bring influence into a culture? And just in terms of setting this up a little bit, I was thinking about how to best set this up. First of all, I just want to say I guess the first thing is that I'm going to presume that we're all on the same page here, that we should be engaged in culture. We shouldn't be disengaged or hiding out in some bunker and disengaging ourselves. We should be engaged in culture. We shouldn't be disengaged or hiding out in some bunker and disengaging ourselves. We should be engaged. Secondly, I'm going to kind of presume a particular kind of strategy, if you will.
Scott Allen:We in the DNA often talk about God's strategy for our engagement in culture as something that's an inside-out strategy. It begins inside of us. We have to be changed and transformed by the gospel, by the love of Jesus, by the love of God that does change us in dramatic ways. And based on that inward transformation, we're then to bring that out into the world that God loves. And so it begins inwardly and then moves outwardly, firstly, kind of through our most basic society, if you will, our immediate family and friends and marriage and some of these most intimate relationships. That's the first thing we focus on, where we have that kind of influence. How do we be salt and light and a representative or an ambassador for God's kingdom in those most basic arenas? And then, you know, from there it moves out into the broader culture, primarily through our vocation, the area that God is—vocation again means calling God's call us into a kind of a work that will touch every area of a culture, whether it's education or business or media. We've got Christians that are working in all of these areas and that's an area that they are to be thinking very carefully and strategically. How do I bring the principles of the Bible and the definitions of biblical words into this area so that it can be reformed, if you will? So that's kind of broad strategy, lennox, any—but maybe, before we move on, just any comment about that, because I think today we didn't want to talk so much at that level of strategy, but more kind of just tactics. And you know how do we do all of that? What should be our approach as Christians in that, our approach as Christians in that. And you know, I'm happy we can talk about strategy and tactics together.
Scott Allen:But I thought, and one more thing, and I'll turn it over to you, lennox, but I've been thinking a lot about tactics because I've been reflecting on just the dramatic cultural change that we've all, you know, all, been witnessing in the United States anyways, over the last, let's say, 30 years dramatic, in a bad way, moving us in quite a negative way towards ideas and ideologies that are very hostile to Christian faith and some of the tactics that our opponents, let's say, have used to transform culture. They've had a real distinct set of tactics that they've used and these would include things like infiltration. Let's infiltrate into education primarily. They really focus on that. How do we get our ideas into curriculum, into schools of teacher training, into higher education, the universities, and then through that, how do we infiltrate the other? I mean, I guess this is strategy on their part.
Scott Allen:But then the tactics that they use are power tactics in the sense that they want to kind of impose, in a top-down kind of way, their views on everyone else. It's kind of a cram down, and they'll do that through things like cancel culture, censorship, a lot of use of false narratives and lies and deception, instilling fear in people, even cancellation to the point of putting people in jail, and so we're seeing some of that now too. So it's not. You know, the tactics that we're seeing in my own country, here, lennox, aren't unlike the tactics that you would hear about in the 20th century in a place like the Soviet Union or Russia not to that degree 20th century in a place like the Soviet Union or Russia, not to that degree, but certainly moving in that direction. And so I think those are all something that those tactics are something that we're seeing a lot more of. But then it brings to mind okay, we as Christians, we don't do those things right, we don't use those tactics, right?
Lennox Kalifungwa:Right, right what do we do?
Scott Allen:That's the question I think we'd really like to explore with you today. So with that setup, lennox, just give me your initial thoughts on either kind of as we engage in culture, just at the level of strategy, or I think again, like today, we'd like to focus more on that tactical level. Just any initial thoughts.
Lennox Kalifungwa:That's very good, scott. I think you've set this up very well. I would begin with where you began, when you spoke about God's strategy and reminding ourselves that we're ultimately aiming to glorify him in all things and that it's his lordship that should be recognized first and foremost. And so, even before we get into the specific tactics, we have to know who these tactics are for and what the overall outcome is. What is it that we're aiming to achieve as we go about engaging the culture? And that begins with, just as you rightly said, just getting our worship rightly oriented toward the Lord Jesus Christ, recognizing that he is Lord, that he is King, that he is worthy of all glory, honor and praise, and that every knee ought to bow before him. And beyond that, he has given us means through which we can relate to him. He has done the work of reconciling people to himself, and in a comprehensive way. So there's a sense in which, as we begin engaging the culture, I think we first need to recognize that we're not beginning from a losing position or a position where we're just sort of hoping for the best but uncertain of what the overall outcome will be, but we're actually beginning from a position of victory.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Our Lord has victory. Our Lord is triumphant. He has defeated sin and death. He is reconciling all things to himself. All authority on heaven and on earth does belong to him and, as Matthew 28 says, therefore we go. So we go in relation to the fact that he already has a comprehensive victory over all things. That's the reason we can get up and go.
Lennox Kalifungwa:I mean to sort of give an example of this from the Bible. The reason a man like Joshua could be courageous to go ahead and fight the battles that he was called to fight was not because he saw a strength or wisdom in himself or among the people around him. It's because he knew the God who he was fighting for. He believed the promises of his God, and I think that's where it has to begin for us as well, in recognizing who our king is, what he has commissioned us to do, and then we just have to go out there and live in obedience to that, and I think that's now the foundation upon which we can begin to talk through some of the tactics in engaging the culture.
Scott Allen:Yeah, if I could comment on that. I just think that's really an important point, lennox, you know and I think, um, I know there's some debate within christian circles about, you know the the ultimate victory of christ does it come before he returns or after he returns? But putting that aside, I think all christians should recognize the fact that, that, that we, he, is victorious. There will be a final victory, you know the, and we can have discussions about that, but that's for sure. You know he will be victorious.
Scott Allen:And I was even thinking about this yesterday in relationship to sanctification, just our personal walk with the Lord. There's a, you know, there's the reality of justification that when we confess with our mouth and believe in our hearts that Jesus is Lord and that God raised him from the dead, we're saved and all of the righteousness of Christ comes upon us. And then our sin is transferred to him and, you know, the penalty is paid for it, so that our standing with God is completely right and healed and he looks at us with love, the same kind of love that he did with his, you know, to his own son. And yet there's a reality, there's the fact that we don't, you know, even though that's done and that's settled. We still struggle with sin.
Scott Allen:And then the question is you know, how do we live in this time, this in-between time, if you will, you know, between now and when we're glorified and with the Lord and sin is completely done away with, and the phrase that came to my mind was we're to live into that future, right, that future. The phrase that came to my mind was we're to live into that future, right, that future. We're to live as if it's definitely going to be happened. You know, it's a definite reality, and I think that's true with our engagement in culture too. We're to live into that end. Does that kind of resonate with what you're saying there?
Lennox Kalifungwa:Oh, absolutely. I think we ought to, and I think that's what propels us forward, that's what grounds us, even when things get difficult, recognizing that I think something far bigger than this present moment is happening and our King is ultimately in control of all of that, and I think without that grounding it it, despondency and discouragement would be inevitable.
Luke Allen:Yeah.
Scott Allen:In fact, it's hard as it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the key point, cause other, if without that, it's easy to just go, it's hopeless, give up, da-da-da-da you know, just shrug your shoulders, it's all going to be destroyed. What's the point? Yeah, so we're countering that kind of mindset. This is kind of the way we think about it, actually, before we even talk about tactics, are we thinking correctly here, Right?
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, in fact, in many ways, I think one tactic to get straight into it is to help people begin to think this way, recruit others to begin to think this way, remind them of the hope of the gospel, remind them of what Christ has achieved and continues to achieve. And I love, scott, how you a moment ago you spoke about sanctification, because that really is where a lot of this begins. He's doing a work in you.
Scott Allen:He will complete this work in you. He's bringing about a reality that's already been accomplished in a way.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Absolutely, Absolutely, in your own life. There's a way in which that's what the Lord uses to effect even more transformation in the larger world. But we need to be reminded of that and I think we need to do the work of reminding Christians of that, reminding Christians of our identity. You know, if you think about it, you know if you think about it throughout Scripture, every imperative is preceded with an indicative, and those indicatives are the bedrock upon which those imperatives are founded.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Before we're told to go and do something, we're first reminded what has been done for us. That's true of the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20. It begins with stating what God has done first, and it's upon that that then we're able to go and do what we've been called to do. And you see that pattern throughout Scripture. I think of a book like Ephesians, where you know you've got six chapters. The first three are just emphasizing what Christ has accomplished for us, and the last three chapters now speak about how we ought to live in light of that. And so I think it is actually a strategic thing to begin with helping people appreciate and believe the indicatives, Because if we really really believe the indicatives, that influences how we then live.
Scott Allen:Yeah, yeah, just one more comment on this point. I think I'm often reminded of the Lord of the Rings and you know, because you see the enemy, the enemy's right there, mordor, and it's fearful and it seems like it's winning and it's on the offensive and we seem so weak and frail and it's just going to wipe us out, and I feel like that's where people's focus is on.
Scott Allen:And there's a character in the Lord of the Rings, denethor, and he's got that palantir, that ball that allows him to see right into the heart of the enemy, and he spends all of his time looking there and it leads him to complete hopelessness and despair. And the others look beyond that. Right, the good guys are looking beyond that, you know, and even kind of warning, you know you shouldn't be looking, you know, just at that immediate enemy in front of your face, as real as that is, there's something beyond, because if you just focus on the thing that's right in front of you, this challenge, this real difficult thing that we're facing it can lead to hopelessness.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Absolutely, Scott. You might have opened a can of worms here by mentioning the Lord of the Rings. This could be a whole other world.
Scott Allen:Yeah, I know, I know can of worms here. By mentioning the Lord of the Rings, this could be a whole rabbit hole. Yeah, I know, I know, but you're absolutely right. I do think there's so much we can learn from that in the time that we're in, of course, absolutely.
Lennox Kalifungwa:It's interesting that you mentioned Denethor, so at the moment I've gone back to the Lord of the Rings, so it's actually one of the books I'm currently reading and I have just finished the part when Gandalf, aragorn, gimli and Legolas have just arrived at Edoras in Rohan and they've just spent some time with Théoden the king, who was also suffering with all kinds of despondency.
Scott Allen:Fears and, yeah, doubts.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Fears and all of that. But the profound thing I think we can get from that was in Gandalf giving him light, that darkness began to fade. And so if we can be acquainted with the light, if we can be acquainted with truth, can be acquainted with the light, if we can be acquainted with truth, I think that's where it all begins, especially in a world that is plagued with all kinds of darkness. There's a sense in which Denethor stopped even wanting to see the light. He believed darkness was all there was.
Scott Allen:He was just going to win. It was inevitable. Exactly, there was no hope. Hope there's no hope.
Luke Allen:Yeah absolutely, absolutely yeah yeah, I mean, I like how you guys brought in a story here, because um, we do live in a story.
Luke Allen:I think that's a good way to explain it but, unlike most books where the characters are blindly walking through the story not knowing what's going to come next, is we know that. We know the last chapter already, we know the final conclusion. And what an advantage that is when we're trying to shape culture. You know, like sometimes when you're reading a book, you're like, why would you do that? And it's because you already maybe know the end of the story and you can see their error that they're about to make.
Luke Allen:Uh, but knowing the end of the story is such a huge advantage when we're trying to have an influence on culture and it just it grounds you in something, uh, that that eternal hope and that eternal that, um, that purpose and that source of where our love and our truth that we're sharing with the world would come from. And if you don't, if you don't have those groundings and your eyes are always going to be fixed on what's right in front of you and a lot of your motivations are going to come out of fear and desperation and a sense of you know the time is running short, I have to do something now. And you see that from a lot of other people who are living in different stories where they don't know the final conclusion, and we should look very different as Christians because of that reality of knowing what's going to happen in the end.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, absolutely.
Scott Allen:Well, let's keep talking. That's a really great place to start, lennox. But what more you know beyond that, beyond just our own orientation and the way that we think and we see things, as important as that is. I mentioned some of the tactics that the enemies of the gospel are using and I do think there's a temptation sometimes on the enemies of the gospel are using and I do think there's a temptation sometimes on the part of Christians to see those tactics kind of work, at least in the short run. You know, you can kind of bend people to your will. If you've got the power, if you've got your fingers and hands on the levers of control of culture, you can do some things, that's for sure. So I think there is a temptation to kind of say let can do some things, that's for sure, you know. So I think there is a temptation to kind of say let's turn the tables. You know, is that what we should do? You know, use the same tactics against them. What are your thoughts and if not, what's our approach?
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, great question, scott. One of the things that came into mind, as you said, that is just, it's sort of a rhetorical question. You know, before God had created the world, did he anticipate the present darkness that we live in today? And of course, the answer to that is yes, he absolutely did, and in several ways he's the one who has, who has armed us for this, and and therefore we ought to be engaging the culture on his terms, in his terms alone. And so, while the enemy has its own outcomes and it's got its own tactics, we ought not to be resorting to the world's tactics as our framework of how we ought to engage. We ought to engage in a way that the king of kings wants us to engage with the culture.
Lennox Kalifungwa:One of the passages that comes to mind is Ephesians 6. We're all familiar with this one. We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, rulers, powers. Flesh and blood, but against principalities, rulers, powers. We see that today. And then Ephesians 6 then goes on to give us the famous armor of God passage, right, which tells us how we ought to be thinking about this. You think of salvation that's something we've kind of referred to already here the gospel, truth as a whole thing, and that's how I think, as Christians, we ought to be thinking about this One fighting on God's terms, but also believing that God has actually given us the tools to engage in faithful Christian warfare. This is not us trying to figure it out from scratch, because somehow God just didn't think this far.
Lennox Kalifungwa:We have the tools that he has given us and we need to employ those things faithfully, but recognizing as well especially in the context of Ephesians 6, that we ought to know who our enemy is. We ought to understand what we're really fighting here. We're not wrestling against flesh and blood. We're not wrestling against the things that would seemingly be the enemy.
Lennox Kalifungwa:What's really happening is that we're engaged in what we can refer to as a cosmic battle, and it's a cosmic battle of truth that is being attacked with lies.
Lennox Kalifungwa:It's life being plagued or attacked with a culture of death. It's these paradoxes of what God has called good with what the world is trying to promote as evil, and we need to recognize that that's really what we're up against In the big moments and in the small moments. Every moment of sin is essentially a moment in which we are wrestling between that which is true and that which is a lie, and I think if we can discern that, we're better able to understand how then we should go forth. And I suppose, with that in mind and he's trying to get straight into it I think that those three things that we love to talk about as Christians truth, beauty and goodness are actual things that God has given us for our warfare. How do we engage the world? How do we establish Christ's kingdom right where we are? Well, we propagate truth, beauty and goodness in everything that we do, and I think that's where we need to begin with this.
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Luke Allen:To sign up today, head to quorumdeocom and begin to have an impact for Christ on your culture that, if it's anything like mine, is in desperate need for truth and direction right now. So, again, to sign up, head to quorumdalecom, or you can learn more on this episode's page, which you'll see linked in the show notes, also as a side note before we hop back into the discussion. Just after we finished recording this episode with Lennox, we realized that we totally missed one of our first points that we wanted to hit in today's list of tactics that we, as Christians, can use as we seek to make an impact for Christ on our cultures, that we, as Christians can use as we seek to make an impact for Christ on our cultures, and that tactic is prayer. This is obviously an absolutely crucial step that deserves a full episode in the future, but for today I just wanted to mention it to anyone who's taking notes that we absolutely cannot forget prayer in all circumstances. And now back to the episode.
Scott Allen:Yeah, a couple of thoughts. This just from my side. You put two things on the table here, lennox. If I could just kind of recap what you said, one is know who the enemy is that we're fighting against, and the Bible makes it completely clear it's not other people, it's Satan. Okay, and yes, we have other people who are our opponents or are pushing lies and false worldviews, and it's easy to make them our enemy. We've got to defeat them, but the Christians shouldn't think that way and we should—Jesus says you should actually love them and we should. Jesus says you should actually love them, and there's a passage in one that I'll just share, this one that I think is so relevant for our day in terms of tactics.
Scott Allen:This is from 2 Timothy 2, starting in verse 24, and it says this the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil. So you're not just, you know a doormat here. You're actually correcting your opponents. We do have opponents. You're doing it gently. And then this is the key part here that I wanted to bring up. Now, god may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, so that they can come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil after being captured by him to do his will. So here's Paul saying you know, the real enemy here behind the scenes is the devil. He's captured these people and he's enslaved them to do his will. And when you see your human opponents in that way, you see them differently, right, you see them as people that are prisoners to a really evil power and they don't even know it, and it gives you compassion for them. Right, in a way that you know you wouldn't otherwise right and you know this is—and you want to see them set free. You know, ultimately we want them to be free. You know, and on that too, I've noticed that very often our human opponents, the ones who are the most opposed to us, the most hateful and the most dead set against us—I mean, Paul himself was this way are the ones that God probably has closest to his kingdom. Right?
Scott Allen:Earlier we were talking about Rosara Butterfield's testimony. She was a really outspoken advocate of LGBTQ, hated Christians, really angry, bitter, and at one level it would be so easy just to fight her. We've got to beat her and you know, we've got to beat her in the courts. We've got to beat her in the argument. And yet you know, the person who finally had the biggest influence on her coming to faith was somebody who did just what this passage says treated her with gentleness, love, saw her as being enslaved to the devil, wanted to see her set free. You know a wholly different approach to her and it made a huge difference, you know, to her Absolutely.
Lennox Kalifungwa:You know, I love how you've talked about gentleness there. I think that's such a key thing. One of the best definitions I've heard of gentleness is by Votie Bauckham, and he likes to define it as power under control. So when most people think of gentleness, they're thinking about of softness, maybe a sort of virtuous timidity you know exactly, and that's not the way to think about it at all.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Another way he illustrated it is it's like wrestling with a three-year-old the power is in your side. You could easily destroy the person right in front of you in an argument, but gentleness suggests an element of restraint and self-control and the highest good of the other person as a priority, and I think that's an important part of how we engage in this regard. While the world tries to simply just destroy and smear and tarnish, the world uses power, as you've put it, and power in a way that's determined to steal, kill and destroy. We ought to be those who nurture and those who wield truth, which is powerful on its own, but for the highest glory of God and for the highest good of man. I think that's the way we have to be thinking about this.
Dwight Vogt:Yeah, yeah, I'm listening to you guys talk too, and I'm thinking you're talking about impacting culture and when we use the word gentleness there's a public impact and some people have huge platforms and very, very public and prominent platforms and God bless them. But then there's most of us that have small platforms and some just. But even then, when we use the word gentleness, oftentimes it's it's it's person to person. It's it's. I mean, ultimately the victims of culture are other people like us, and I'm thinking, even in my own church, how many people are struggling with the culture at their own personal level.
Dwight Vogt:And the answer there isn't to give them a political slogan or to some prominent idea, but just say, hey, how are you doing? Is that working for you? And really dealing with them in their own level in this lie and applying what you just said, Lennox, to their lie in their life? That's captured by Satan right now and you do it gently, but you do it, you know you try to do it, dwight.
Lennox Kalifungwa:that is so good. I mean. One thing that comes to mind there, just to reemphasize what you've said is the importance of relationships in all of this. To reemphasize what you've said is the importance of relationships in all of this nurturing relationships. God clearly values relationships. When he gave us his Ten Commandments, every single one is about relationships and, dwight, I really loved how you really brought that home in speaking about how that should influence the way we engage with people, just as individuals. It's not enough to simply just give them a political slogan, as you've put it, but what they need is relationships. I think relationships is something that God has given us, the form that he has given us, through which many of the tactics we'll be talking about can actually be propagated. So I think that's quite profound.
Scott Allen:Yeah, I was thinking about related to this and you mentioned it earlier too, lennox, when you talked about truth, goodness and beauty and I want to come back to truth in a second, but just focusing on the goodness and the beauty and I think one of the most powerful ways that we see transformation in a culture or in a person's life, a biblical tactic for that, is this idea of I don't know the best word to describe it, but it's to kind of woo them or show them a better way. I mean, we're putting we should be putting forward something that's very appealing, very attractive, and you know people that are ensnared to, you know the devil, you know ensnared by the lies that he's leading their lives at some level. They might put on a good appearance, but things are, they're their lives. At some level, they might put on a good appearance, but things are pretty broken for them and they know that at some level. And the power of Christianity is that it wins converts by wooing them with something that's good and that's beautiful. They go something's different about you, about your family, about. There's just something about it and I want to know more. And it touches their heart, right. And then when they because beauty is something that touches people at that very deep level of the heart, you know. And then, when they come to know the truth, you know their hearts are won over right. And I say all that because the tactic of our opponents right now doesn't involve goodness and beauty. It's not a wooing tactic, it's not showing them, it's not appealing to a better way to live.
Scott Allen:The word I would use is fear. It's trying to instill, you know, fear. If you don't get on board, you know you're going to be silenced, shut down. You know you might even go to jail, whatever it is. You know there's all this fear and that can work, right, fear can work for a while anyways, you know. You can compel me, you know, against my will, to kind of bend the knee to your view out of fear for myself or my family. But it's not very powerful compared to the other one, right? This kind of beauty, goodness that wins people's hearts and then they're voluntarily on board for life, you know.
Dwight Vogt:Does that make sense?
Luke Allen:Yeah, one of our recent guests on the podcast said the two most potent drivers of decision-making for people is one is fear and one is love, and most people make decisions based off one of those two. But but love has such a deeper impact. It has more of a lasting impact because it's motivated by the good. Um, fear will definitely make you change, but it will probably be short term, until you're away from that thing that you're avoiding.
Scott Allen:I mean think about yeah.
Luke Allen:Love reorients your life. I'm thinking of in 1, Peter, Dad, I think this goes along with what you were just saying of that wooing. I don't know if I like that word too much but just shining.
Luke Allen:Christ's light in a dark world. It's 1 Peter, 2, 2, verses 11 through 12. Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires which wage war against your souls. Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us, and just living a Christ-like life will shine in a shine in a dark world and showing the world what true love looks like is. It's incomprehensible to our flesh. It just points to a transcendence and, yeah, it sticks out.
Scott Allen:No for sure, and this is the way Christ has changed the world. I mean, we just need to look to his own example. While we were yet his enemies, right, christ died for us. Why did he do that? Because he loved us, you know. He gave he willingly. No greater love has any man than this that he'd lay down his life for his friend. I mean, christ showed the greatest love you can possibly show to each one of us by laying down his life for us. And when you know that you give your life to Christ in response to that, and he's won your heart and you'll do anything for him, right, I'll do anything for him. Right, I'll do anything for him because of what he's done for me. Right, that's a whole different way of motivating people and moving people than fear, right? So I'm just going to keep my head down or whatever it is. I'm just going to, you know, try not to get you know know.
Dwight Vogt:Lennox, can I put you on the spot? I want to ask you a question here. What do you do? You're a culture warrior in Zambia. I'm wondering what that even means and what do you do and how do you do it and what's your role in this? Scott mentioned vocation. What's your vocational role in this?
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, that's a good question. I suppose there's a lot I could say here. One thing is just being faithful at home. You know that that's where it all begins, with me loving my wife, loving her faithfully, investing in our marriage in a God-glorifying way, loving her as Christ loved the church. That's where it begins, because in many ways that's the primary place that I get to illustrate the gospel to others.
Dwight Vogt:And is that cross-cultural?
Lennox Kalifungwa:in Zambia.
Scott Allen:Counter-cultural? Is that what you mean? It's counter-cultural. Is that cross-cultural in Zambia? Countercultural? Is that what you mean? It's?
Dwight Vogt:countercultural. Is that countercultural? I'm sorry, is that countercultural it's?
Lennox Kalifungwa:absolutely countercultural here we don't know.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Zambia. Divorce cases are high and on the rise, growing exponentially every single year. Fatherlessness is perhaps the greatest problem that we have in this part of the world. It's a very big thing. Families are fundamentally fractured. Now, sure that that might.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Statistically, I think the West might look worse, but I think, realistically, culturally, you see a lot of fragmentation here as well. And so, yes, having a good, healthy marriage is countercultural. Raising your children to fear God is countercultural. It's different, and I think that's where it has to begin for me. And so while, yes, dwight, I love how you've referred to me as a cultural warrior, I feel really mighty with that title, you know. But yeah, that's where the warring has to begin. And then I think, beyond that, it's serving the people around me as well. I'm serving the people in my neighborhood, getting to know my neighbors, being a light to the people who are in my immediate vicinity, serving people in my church and being very devoted there, relaying some of the things that we're talking about to them and actively discipling people. My wife and I are strongly dedicated to ensuring that our home is one that is overflowing with hospitality. We want people in our home to see how we live and hopefully, through that, see more about who our Lord is, and I think when I can win there, dwight, I can then go on and do more. And so I've had numerous opportunities to write and to do media-related things. Recently I was on radio talking about the biblical role of government, and this is a radio that broadcasts across Zambia and across Africa as well, and so it's utilizing any opportunity I really can to communicate truth, beauty and goodness in all things.
Lennox Kalifungwa:I think one of the things that the Lord has equipped me to do is to communicate in a variety of ways, and so it's wielding that to the glory of God in whatever way I can, and of course, it helps to be able to communicate something that you're living out. So it's not just a message. In a sense it's actually showing them an alternative culture. You know we've spoken about this before and I hope I'm not changing subject here too much, but you know Zambia, if you don't know, considers itself a Christian country. There's a church on every corner in Zambia, and yet there's not much to show for it, and sure, I think that's partly because people aren't actually hearing a real gospel. The prosperity gospel is a very big thing here. It's the prosperity gospel is a very big thing here. You know it's rife. It's really just a repackaged form of animism, in a sense, and that is plaguing churches in a major way. So that's a contributing factor.
Lennox Kalifungwa:But I'd say that even in places that are actually getting the gospel right, I think many people have a message, and that's good, but they don't seem to have a culture that accompanies that message, and by a culture I just mean a way of living that is distinct from the way the world lives, do their marriages differently, who raise their children differently, who go about doing their work differently, who go about relating to their neighbors differently, who go about speaking differently, who make different kinds of decisions about a host of things.
Lennox Kalifungwa:We have to be different, we have to be different, and I think there's a variety of ways that we can do that. But yeah, to your point, dwight, I think it has to begin at home, and it has to begin, I think as well, with utilizing the things that God has actually placed in our hands. In my hands, that's specifically communication, for example, and so I try to wield that as best as I can towards building a new culture, a distinct culture. I'm not simply trying to get people converted while still existing in the current cultures that exist, existing in the current cultures that exist. My goal is to help Christians understand what it means to be a Christian really in a holistic sense, understand what the Lordship of Christ pertains to in every aspect of life and, as a result, build distinct cultures that value truth, beauty and goodness above all things. So yeah, there's a lot I could say to that.
Scott Allen:Dwight. But yeah, I'm glad you. You know we talked in our just last podcast about this issue of Christianity needs to become a culture, so I'm glad you brought that up because I do think that's kind of controversial now in the church, sadly, I would say.
Scott Allen:You know, the idea being that the mission of the church is to, you know, to preach a message of salvation and see people one to Christ and to come to church, you know, come into churches and ultimately, you know, to heaven. But this idea that Christianity is to become a culture, a counterculture, a different kind of culture, it still, you know, I think, is something that a lot of Christians don't understand or don't even agree with and consequently, when that's the case, the way they engage with the culture is just on the culture's terms, in terms of the way that it views marriage or any number of things, education. You know, they act just like everyone else in the culture, essentially because that idea that we're to become a distinct culture isn't, you know, they haven't thought deeply about that, and I think one of the reasons for that, lennox, if I could, is just I heard it explained this way just this last week. I thought it was good. The person explaining it said Christianity is a story, as Luke said, composed of four books creation, fall, redemption, consummation.
Scott Allen:And yet for a long time now, the evangelical church has really just focused on two of those four books fall and redemption. But it's left out that first all-important book, you know, creation. That answers the question of what's ultimately real. Who am I, what's my relationship to other people, to creation itself? You know, christianity, in other words, is a worldview. It's not just a message of salvation, and I think a lot of Christians just think of their faith as a message of salvation and living out that salvation, but it's, it's a whole worldview. Um, that's counter, as you said, countercultural to this fallen world and has to be lived out.
Dwight Vogt:So, anyways, I'm just glad you put that on the table and that's very good and when we say worldview, we're talking culture and so you're saying that Genesis 1 that's what I'm hearing you saying, scott Genesis 1 and 2 sets the table for the Christian culture. Because there really is a Christian culture and what was fallen was fallen from Eden, which was God's view of how the world should function, how the Christian culture I hate to use even words Christian culture, but that's what it was. And it's hard to get our minds around that, scott, because culture is so neutral At one level.
Scott Allen:It's not because you know. There's a way that everyone does these things. If you're a teacher in public schools, there's a way that you teach, you're trained in that, you're expected to do that, you're evaluated on that. Well, what is that way? You know, and when you boil it down it comes down to there's certain principles, certain, you know, beliefs, certain core beliefs about, especially about who these students are, that we're teaching. There's certain definitions of words into the principles and the definitions that come from the Bible and not from Karl Marx or from, you know, whoever right Postmodernism, derrida, whatever you know, darwin or animism, as you were saying there in Zambia. You know there's all sorts of first principles from these different religions, if you will, or belief systems. We're not to just absorb those and live those out as Christians. No, we're to reject those and live according to principles and definitions. I think those two things definitions of words and principles from the Bible have to shape a kind of culture in all of those areas.
Lennox Kalifungwa:And, by the way, this is part of the way right.
Scott Allen:This is part of the way we this is. You know. I mean now we're talking more strategy than tactics, but still it is an approach to shaping culture right we always go back.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Absolutely. I think what you've said here is just so good. There's a way in which we can't really even understand fall and redemption in the way we ought to if we don't understand creation. That's right. You know, like what have we fallen from? What are we being redeemed toward? I think some people find what I'm about to say controversial, but some people think salvation is the goal.
Lennox Kalifungwa:It's not, you know, amen, yeah you know Amen, yeah Salvation is the means through which God uses to enable us, redeem, us, to once again live in the way that he had created us to live.
Scott Allen:Say that again, because I really think you're on to something so valuable and so missed in the church today. Yeah, say that again.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Absolutely so. Salvation is the means that God uses to redeem us so that we can live in the way that he had created us to live and that's the first book of creation.
Lennox Kalifungwa:That's right and that's literally the first book of creation, and therefore I think that we ought not to separate Genesis 1, the cultural mandate there, from Matthew 28 in the Great Commission. I think the two have to work closely together. God has redeemed us so that we can be fruitful and multiply, so that we can subdue the earth and exercise dominion over it in the way that he had created us to, and you know, and this involves all the different areas of creation education business, economics, you know, because I think for a lot of Christians they don't even see any connection between those things in their faith.
Scott Allen:You know, other than this is a place where I work and make money, you know. But yeah, sorry, go ahead.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, exactly, adam wasn't necessarily a preacher, he was a gardener, he was a linguist right. In fact, scott, I think you mentioned a moment ago just the importance of words. Yes, I think us being able to wield words in the right way is how we build culture right. I think that's another way of expressing what it looks like to wield truth in cultural engagement.
Scott Allen:True biblical definitions are building blocks of Christian culture. That's right.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Absolutely, and you see Adam literally doing that in the garden, as he is naming things.
Lennox Kalifungwa:He is not simply just labeling for the sake of convenience. Adam is actually building culture. In naming his wife, he is building culture and using words that define what she is and what she is for, and I think that's something that we tend to miss, and I think if we can again just capture the significance of creation and everything that goes into it and how even man was called to be a builder of culture in Genesis 1, we then recognize the significance of what Christ has saved us to right. I think we're very good at understanding what he has saved us from from sin and the penalty of it but we don't often think about what he has saved us to. He has saved us to something, and it's something that was stated literally in the first chapter of the Bible, and so we need to recognize that truth. The truth that sets us free is one that enables us to be fruitful in the way that God created us to be fruitful, and I think we need to understand that clearly as Christians.
Scott Allen:Yeah, no kidding man. That's so well said, lennox. I'm sorry.
Dwight Vogt:I think we also minimize the importance of us living in that culture of truth, goodness and beauty during this time on our earth. You know God talks a lot about judgment. He's not going to judge us for death and hell, but he will judge us in terms of what did you do? I gave you X number of years down there and His question will be did you live A life of goodness, truth and beauty, and how did you live that out? How did you express that? As a unique image of myself in this world? And we'll go well, I didn't really think about that. I didn't know that was a problem for you.
Dwight Vogt:I just made money and lived a pretty decent life and, you know, tried to witness and he'll go. No, no, I had a culture for you to live.
Scott Allen:I saved you for a purpose, right? You didn't do it.
Dwight Vogt:I saved you for a purpose, to live that culture, and you had seven years and you just wasted about 68 of them. You know, I wonder if he's going to say that to anyone. You know.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Dwight. I think this rings in my mind significantly because just recently I was preaching on Matthew 25, on the parable of the talents, and I think that as Christians we tend to be more like the foolish servant than we realize, thinking that it is virtuous and prudent and responsible to sort of bury the talents and the things that God has given us. And one of the things that I was emphasizing in this sermon is I think this parable is actually teaching us more about God than we realize, and one of those things is the fact that one God loves truth, he delights in truth, but that he also delights in those who are willing to take risks to see things come to fruition. And I think the reason that's so important to understand is because we live in a world and a culture that places a very high premium on survival. We're more influenced by Charles Darwin than we realize, believing that life is all about survival. And I think, even as Christians, there's a way in which we think the goal of our Christianity is just to merely survive as Christians and preserve our Christianity at any cost. Only the foolish servant would say amen to that right. But in understanding our King of Kings, we must realize that we've been called to not merely survive.
Lennox Kalifungwa:I've heard it once illustrated by someone who said you know, god raised his son, sent his son into the world to die in his 30s. You know how's that? For a survival tactic, he calls Gideon to go and face a huge army with just a few hundred men. You know how's that for playing it safe. And yet I think sometimes, as Christians, we have just bought into this idea that life is all about merely surviving, and I think that runs against what we've been created for.
Lennox Kalifungwa:The truth is fruitfulness is going to be messy, it's going to be risky, it might even cost you your life. That's the reality of it, and yet that's exactly what God calls us to, and it's those efforts that essentially build his kingdom. It's those efforts that essentially build his kingdom. It's those efforts that build a Christian culture. Christian cultures aren't built by those who play it safe. Christian cultures are built by those who understand who their God is and victoriously and courageously live by the truth, even if it might cost them greatly, and I think we need to recapture that in this day and age.
Scott Allen:Yeah, there's so much we can learn from that parable. There's risk, but there's also a level of careful planning and strategy. Right? If you want to return on your investment, you know it requires some careful thought, planning, strategy and courage. And so those are all important virtues, aren't they? Not just burying it out of fear, right, that talent that God's given us?
Dwight Vogt:I think your focus on fruitfulness is important, lennox, because I think when we think of culture, it really is the outgrowth of fruitfulness. It's how do you? What do you bring? What do you give? What do you produce? What do you give? What do you produce? What do you add?
Scott Allen:Those are all fruitful words and, by the way, the fruit is important too because we don't produce that fruit in our own strength, right, I mean, that's the whole parable as well of the vine and the branches, right, you know it's that being connected to the power that brings forth the fruit, that then causes the fruit to come forth, right, you know?
Dwight Vogt:so, yeah, all right, and that's contrasted with the life of you use the word survival. I'm thinking it's for some people it's survival and happiness, or survival and comfort, and then for Christians it's probably survival and moral living. I think we have this sense of, oh, I need to live morally. Maybe it's so we don't lose our heaven salvation. I don't know why, but we have to live morally, we know that too. But nobody talks about the idea of fruitfulness that leads to fruitful cultures, absolutely the culture of the kingdom.
Luke Allen:Lennox, just to get back to the tactics discussion here. Absolutely, lennox. Just to get back to the tactics discussion here. When you were saying how you are influencing the culture in Zambia and the culture around you, you listed off a couple areas that you do that, starting with your family, starting with yourself and your wife and your kids, and then into your broader culture and your work and platforms that you've had a chance to speak on.
Luke Allen:I think for a lot of Christians maybe it's because of that survival instinct in us is, when you talk about changing culture in your family and maybe at your Bible study in your church, we all applaud and we say, yeah, I can do that because that's comfortable, right? Uh, there's, for most of us, not too much friction in those areas. It's, it's easy to be, um, be fruitful in those areas because there's not much pushback and it's comfortable and it's not scary, uh, but then when you talk about going and knocking on your neighbor's door and, uh, you know, trying to have an influence for God's culture in that area, people say, well, I'd rather not do that. I'm just thinking of myself here. Or going down the street and talking in a coffee shop to people there, or at your work or especially when it gets into the public sphere and talking in those areas where you can, in our day and age, meet a lot of resistance.
Luke Allen:You know we've talked a lot on this podcast about the overall view of Christianity that we see growing in the world today, and it's this negative view of Christianity, whereas in some places, in the US at least, it used to be more of a positive view. Then for a while it was kind of neutral. You know well Christians. You know neither here nor there we can just coexist.
Luke Allen:Increasingly it's a negative view and, being a Christian, if you're going to go and speak in the public sphere and try to, especially if you're going to try to influence culture with God's principles and for the kingdom, you're going to see a lot of pushback most likely. So, at least for myself, what I want to do then is just kind of hide and oh, I'll be faithful in my family and in my church and in my small group and you feel like you're kind of, you're doing your part, but God's called us to more than that. So how do you, how do you, what are the tactics that you use to go beyond those, those important starting points, but to go beyond those into the culture at a time when there's going to be pushback.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, I really appreciate that question, luke. I think it's important to establish the fact that, in a world that is hostile against Christianity, being nice might not be the best tactic.
Lennox Kalifungwa:And I think some people might be taken aback by that, because it's like well, isn't Christianity all about being nice? And by being nice, what I'm referring to is basically appeasing the culture, in a sense, seeking to be liked by the culture and thinking that's the means through which God will work. But the truth is, god doesn't need the culture to like you in order for him to use you to reach the culture. And I think our generation needs to understand that. You don't need to be liked, and that's not to say that that gives you a license to be cantankerous and horrible Not at all but it does mean that it requires us to die to the desire to want to be liked and to want to be accepted and to be and basically to be applauded by the world. And I think that that's where we first and foremost need to need to die to that desire, to that sin. And then I think, beyond that, we need to understand that we're not called to simply be consumers of culture. Dare, I say, we're not even here to necessarily be redeemers of culture, although there's an element in which we're doing that. I think we're called to be builders of culture, and so I think the way we view ourselves is critical. We ought to see ourselves as culture builders and not just cultural survivors or, you know, cultural consumers. We ought to see ourselves as culture builders, and I think the way to build a culture is twofold.
Lennox Kalifungwa:I think, on one hand, you first and foremost have to address the idols of the culture. You know, I think of 2 Kings, 22 and 23,. Josiah's reform of Judah included him addressing the idolatry of the day. So challenge the actual idols. But as and when you challenge the idols of a culture, you ought to be building something in place of where those idols stood. And so what does that look like for Christians? Well, it looks like building up people and it looks like building Christian institutions. It's building Christian families, it's building Christian churches, it's building Christian businesses, it's building Christian schools, it's building Christian media houses, it's building Christian scientists I could go on and on but it's building people, the distinctly Christian people and Christian institutions. And that's what I think we should all be seeking to do as an actual strategy in engaging the culture. So we ought not to simply be people simply with a message, but people who have something to build, something tangible to build, but people who have something to build, something tangible to build so that when people look at the way a Christian is conducting their business, they're asking huh, how is it that he is able to do this with so much integrity and honesty? How is it that he's able to just add so much beauty and excellence to the things that he does? How is it that he's able to really serve his clients and customers and not wanting to exploit them? You know like you want people to ask those kinds of questions, not just on the basis of what you say, but on the basis of what you're intentionally building. And so, yes, luke, I think it's got to be about building Christian institutions distinctly, all these institutions submitting to the lordship of Christ, submitting to his word, seeking to propagate truth, beauty and goodness in literally everything that they do. And I think that's got to be the tool of our warfare in a negative world that is trying to build a culture that is antithetical to Christ.
Lennox Kalifungwa:In many places around the world, there's a culture of death. The number one cause of death around the world is abortion, for example. How do we address that? Well, I think, as Christians, that means that we ought to build a culture of life that Well, I think, as Christians, that means that we ought to build a culture of life. We ought to be those who delight in fertility, who delight in children, who don't view children as an inconvenience or as a necessary evil, but as a real gift from the hand of God himself, as something that is part of our warfare in being fruitful and multiplying. We ought to view children the way God does. We ought to see and view fertility the way God does. I mean, that's just one example there. In a culture where there's lies speak the truth, in a culture that is full of fear, we ought to be building cultures that are full of freedom and joy. I think sometimes we underestimate how powerful joy is in our warfare and our cultural engagement.
Scott Allen:And again I think, yeah, go ahead, scott. We're not trying to compel people out of fear, but we're trying to again I know the word we didn't like but woo them with something better that's more appealing. That's where there's real joy, there's real beauty.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Right.
Scott Allen:You know. So they want to be a part of that, you know.
Luke Allen:I love the way you were describing those.
Luke Allen:You said we need to build Christian businesses and Christian media and Christian.
Luke Allen:And then the way you described that I think some people I know for myself when you first said those words Christian businesses and Christian you know you kind of go back to the regular tactics of this world like, oh, if you're going to make a Christian business, does that mean you have to only have Christian employees?
Luke Allen:Does that mean you have to have Bible verses all over the wall and you know, just kind of stamp Christianity on top of it. It's like no, no, no, start from the roots. This is a business that's going to be based off of truth, goodness and beauty and this is going to be a business that seeks for the flourishing of people and a business that promotes life whenever that is possible and promotes human dignity, because it understands the dignity that God has given to each of us as image bearers of him. So I just wanted to clarify that it's not that we're saying we're trying to build some kind of top-down imposed Christianity on these things. It's saying that we're going to build this from the ground up in biblical principles, living out biblical definitions in the way that we go about.
Scott Allen:Biblical principles, again biblical principles, biblical definitions. What's one of those principles? That all people are made in God's image and have inherent dignity and worth and value. Just that one principle alone. If you bring that into a business, it's going to radically transform the way you view your customers and your employees. And if you live that out, in other words, people aren't a means to an end, they're an end, right, yeah?
Luke Allen:I think of like. I don't know their business model too well, but I know Chick-fil-A has put an emphasis on this in the US. That business yeah, I forget the owner's name but just that little change and the principle that they're going to go about selling their fried chicken sandwiches has made an impact and it's you know, it's a business that's doing extremely well because of that, I think.
Scott Allen:Yeah, there's so many examples of that. Yeah, yes.
Luke Allen:Let me, let me go ahead.
Scott Allen:Lennox and I want to, I want to start kind of bringing us towards some conclusions, but go ahead with your thought there. Yeah, sure yeah.
Lennox Kalifungwa:I was just gonna say, you know, fear never produces fruitfulness, it just it doesn't. A mentor of mine often likes to say that fear is faith in the enemy, and I think when we understand that we realize. Okay, so then this is a weapon that the enemy uses to steal, to kill and destroy. God's enemies aren't necessarily building things, you know, if you notice Like they're not really building things.
Scott Allen:They're trying to destroy everything. It's all deconstruction right.
Lennox Kalifungwa:It's all about deconstruction and that's why, you know, if people accuse us of trying to build businesses and thinking like, isn't that employing the world's tactics? Like no, actually not at all. They're in the business of tearing things down. We're in the business of building things up and not on the basis of fear or trying to manipulate, but we build on the basis of truth in order to enable freedom, which is exclusive to truth, which produces fruitfulness. So, yeah, I think that's how we need to think about this.
Scott Allen:Yeah, that's so. I just think that's so important what you just said there, lenny, because you're saying so many just really powerful things. I'm hoping our listeners are really getting out their pencils and taking good notes here today. Yeah, this is a good one for notes. I'm taking notes myself.
Luke Allen:Lennox, we do live in a negative world, though. In a lot of places around the world, things are getting more difficult for Christians. Persecution is probably on the way. It's already on the way for a lot of people. What do we do when the pushback comes? How do we continue to utilize these tactics in the midst of pressure and, you know, a strong push to stay away from speaking truth? Don't say that, christians, because you will see punishment for that. How do we I don't know about change our tactics, but what tactics do we utilize in this shifting culture about?
Lennox Kalifungwa:change our tactics, but what tactics do we utilize in this shifting culture? Yeah, I think we have to do a few things here, and I think it begins, first and foremost with us even being willing to suffer, first and foremost, and even having tactics of how we're going to survive in the suffering. As Christians, we have a very long history of how to survive in suffering, how to thrive in suffering, and looking to be faithful, not cowering to the pressure, but being even firmer, in a sense, being even louder, seeking to be even more influential in that sense. But I think there's also a way in which, as Christians, we need to be willing to play the long game and be patient in our strategy. So, for example, in our building of institutions, we're not looking for something that's merely an immediate payoff to make us feel like we're doing something in the moment, but we need to remember that, ultimately, it's the Lord who's using our efforts to achieve his ends, and I think that that should remind us to be patient in playing a long game as we build and as we build, I mean the kinds of things that we need to be doing is, I think, fighting in very strategic areas, and one of the ways to know whether it's a strategic area or not is to look at where the battle rages most. Where are we being attacked? Where is truth being assaulted most pointedly? I think in this modern age, it's in the areas of sexuality, and so that's where we need to fight. It's in the area of the family, and that's where we need to fight. It's in a more contextual platform. It's in the areas of education, right, which is where we need to fight as well. So I think we need to be wielding Christian education as a tool against what's going on in the world. It's in the area of media as well. There's so much being thrust down our throats, there's so much we view that is just antithetical to Christ, and so those would be just a few places where the battle rages most.
Lennox Kalifungwa:In fact, another thing I should probably speak about here, for example in relation to family, is to do with masculinity. I think one of the ways that we can strategically fight is by building strong and godly men right, like that's where a lot of this has to begin. Build strong and godly men, because the strong and godly men who will wield strength, wisdom and responsibility to protect, provide and lead their families, their churches and their communities at large. If we can focus on building men, we can begin to turn the tide in a culture that has become essentially effeminate, essentially soft. We live in a culture that is void of those who have the capacity and the wisdom to protect and to guide and to lead, and so we need to go back to building the kinds of people who can bring about this sort of order, who can courageously step up and establish truth, beauty and goodness everywhere they go, who are willing to do the hard things. I think men in many ways we were made to do the hard things. I think men in many ways we were made to take on tough times and we need to be in the business of building men. So yeah, luke, I think these are the areas we need to be fighting in and I think these are the ways, these are the specific things we can begin to do Building virtue in men, building virtue in women as well.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Right, like beginning there and then taking that virtue in both men and women into every single sphere of life and intentionally trying to build a culture, a godly culture, in a world that's trying to destroy.
Lennox Kalifungwa:So, as they try to tear down stuff, we ought to be building things not running away from building things, but actually building things. And there's very specific things we can look at. There is, I think, christians have to be in the business of owning productive property. Our Christians need to be buying land and building on it. Christians need to be utilizing that land and actually building things there and actually seeking to add economic value in the places around them. That's one way of being salt and light as well, and so I think that's. I think, if we wield that, we could really influence our communities in a very profound way and actually seeing the ownership of property in that sense not just as this sort of niche talking point when we talk about free markets, but actually as a real way that we influence culture. And I think those are a few ways we need to be thinking.
Luke Allen:No, that's excellent. Yeah, knowing where the battle rages most is so important. But also, I think, at least in my own culture, when I look out like the battle is raging at so many areas there's 50 places I could be, you know, fighting right now. And with that comes we have a responsibility to understand and use discernment and prioritize where you have been gifted.
Scott Allen:Um, it's kind of that that you're on calling and where you've been called.
Luke Allen:Yeah, yeah, it's the body of Christ. Analogy of uh, you know, know where God is placing you, and and and. Uh, you know, like you were saying, if you're a farmer, there's a role you could be playing right now in that place. For other people it's going to be different. So don't let all that weight of the world overwhelm you. Pick one and be faithful there and then see where God calls you next, and that kind of step-by-step mentality, instead of that overwhelming. There's way too much to do right now. I'm just going to throw up my hands and do nothing.
Scott Allen:Lennox, let me ask you a question if I could, and again, this conversation is hard to know how to end it, but one of the tactics that it seems to me, the opponents of Christianity have been really successful in the United States in this time is if you're a Christian that wants to do all that we're talking about and begin to build a culture based on principles from the Bible, biblical definitions, in any area, if you get outside the church, in other words, you become a threat to these established powers, and then the first thing they're going to do is start calling you names. They're going to call you racist, patriarch, you know, you name it homophobe, just a whole series of names, and I feel like that tactic's been pretty effective for a lot of Christians. In other words, their reaction to that is to say, oh no, they get defensive. I'm not, that I'm not, you know, a racist, a homophobe.
Dwight Vogt:Or.
Scott Allen:I guess another part of that tactic is they'll point to kind of the most extreme version of that somewhere in history or wherever and say you're just like those guys in that really crazy church or that really bad time in history. And then they'll get us on the defensive and try to say no, we're not like that, you know.
Scott Allen:And it seems like when we kind of fight in that way or we fight on that ground that they've laid, we lose every time. I'm not sure if I'm making sense, but it just seems to me that this is, and I think part of it, too, is what you were saying.
Scott Allen:We prioritized wanting to be, you know, when we were talking about nice. We want to be approved by people that are influential in the culture, right, and you know, we definitely don't want to be called these bad names by them, right? But, and that's the highest priority, what are your thoughts on this tactic? What do you do when people call you these names?
Lennox Kalifungwa:I think we should do what James tells us and count it all joy when that happens. Being called those names might mean that you're actually doing what you're supposed to be doing, and I think, for that reason, we should count it all joy. Of course, it's never nice to be called names, right, but there's a sense in which being called those names might mean that you're actually doing something and that you're over the target. You're speaking the truth and so, yeah, count it all joy. Um, it unfortunately has been an effective tactic, um, that the enemy is wielded. I mean, I think of the book after the ball, which was published, I believe, in the late 80s, and it was written um, I'm trying to remember their names. I think their names were kirk and madison. Um, I think one of them was a homosexual man and together they wrote this book on how they were going to influence the world to accept homosexuality.
Scott Allen:Make homosexuality mainstream and accepted by the broader public.
Lennox Kalifungwa:It was completely successful. They laid out a strategy that was carried out to the T very successfully.
Scott Allen:Yeah, it's an amazing book.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, it is Using the tactics of desensitization, jamming and conversion like that sort of a threefold strategy. And yeah, it's worked. And it's worked in basically getting people to either be silent or to completely capitulate to their point of view. And that's unfortunate. And I think what we need to be doing is just doing the work of discipling Christians in a robust understanding of truth, beauty and goodness.
Lennox Kalifungwa:I think when you've been deeply enculturated in the ways of truth, it's just that much harder for lies to sway you. It's that much harder for ridicule to sway you. When you've been deeply enculturated in beauty, attempts to tarnish that which is beautiful doesn't sway you. You are just that much more formidable in engaging the culture. And same goes with goodness. When you're well acquainted with goodness not just knowing what it is, but actually delighting in goodness Truth, beauty and goodness are not just intellectual things to be memorized. They're things we ought to love because God loves them. We ought to love what he loves and hate what he hates. And when our loves are formed fundamentally and are anchored in truth, beauty and goodness, I think that's the inoculation against the world's tactics to. You know, call us names and all of that.
Scott Allen:Well, you know, I think you're bringing up that book After the Ball is really a great, you know, illustration of how we can rightly respond to this issue of name-calling. Because part of their strategy was they understood in the United States very cleverly, they understood that one of the worst things you could be called was, you know, kind of a racist person, you know, because our history with slavery, so they as homosexuals who wanted to normalize homosexual culture, they had to kind of marry their issue to the race issue. And you know, if you kind of liken people that were standing against homosexuality to people who were standing against, who were standing, you know, who were advocates of slavery Ku Klux Klan, you know, or these kinds of people you know, you're standing in the way of progress of a vilified minority, you know, and they successfully did that, such that, you know, I think you know many Christians. They were afraid of being labeled, just like they were afraid of being labeled, you know, many Christians. They were afraid of being labeled, just like they were afraid of being labeled, you know, a racist member of the Ku Klux Klan.
Scott Allen:They didn't want to be on the wrong side of this issue of oppression either, right, you know, and so they were successful in that and part of that I think part of that for the church is just understanding that this is a tactic. And when you understand it's a tactic, you can say you know, I'm not going to fall for it right, you know I'm not going to fall for it, right, you know, even though it's maybe an effective tactic, I know who I am. I'm not, I'm not that way, you know. You can call me that, I know that that's not true.
Lennox Kalifungwa:And that's just a tactic, you know, I agree. And one other thing I can add to that.
Luke Allen:Scott is sorry. I mean, I know we're just about done here.
Lennox Kalifungwa:I think Christians have got to learn to have a sense of humor in all of that.
Lennox Kalifungwa:I think we have to learn to laugh at ourselves and to laugh at things that are genuinely funny and laugh at the things that God laughs at. And I think it's a good Christian thing to nurture a healthy form of sarcasm and satire, as is appropriate, and I think that even that's an inoculation against the world's tactics. If we're always taking ourselves too seriously, yeah, that's a problem. In a sense, that's exactly where God's enemies want us. But our ability to laugh off their folly, I think, is a strength, and our ability to use humor to even show them, I think humor is an effective way of showing people their folly in a sense. Of course, this ought to be done wisely, not flippantly, but I guess the point here is that we have to learn to laugh, we have to learn to nurture humor in our language and discourse.
Scott Allen:You know, the Babylon Bee guys are the guys that have really led the way in this, and they're Christians right, you know, christian homeschool guys that have created this gigantic platform that does just what you're talking about. It takes these controversial issues and puts them forward in such a way that it's just humorous, right, it's just. We all laugh at it, and there's something so powerful about that, isn't there?
Luke Allen:Yeah, yeah, you can tell me if I'm wrong here, but I'm still chewing on the quote you said earlier that fear is the faith, is faith in the enemy. That's such an interesting quote, but I think one of the complete opposites of fear is laughter humor. Um, it's uh. To laugh in the face of fear is just about the opposite. Fear oftentimes for Christians can look like you have to look just right or you have to sound right or you have to be, you know not, you have to be kind of calm and keep this demeanor and just that. That put in the box, kind of christian and it's like, yes, where's the laughter there? Where's the joy? Where's the delight?
Lennox Kalifungwa:yes, man we have. We have to be more like tom bombadil in the lord of the rings, laughing and singing and making merry and eating good food and enjoying his bride that's who he is.
Scott Allen:I was always so puzzled like what in the world, what role does he play in this story? Singing and making merry and eating good food and enjoying his bride that's who he is. I was always so puzzled Like what in the world, what role does he play in this story?
Lennox Kalifungwa:But now I know. Thank you, lennox. He's always a strange guy, I'm like. What role?
Scott Allen:Oh strange, in fact, scott in many ways, I think he's the most powerful person in the Lord of the Rings. Well, they make him that way, right? He's the one that's kind of the most powerful in the sense that he's the most resistant to the power of the ring.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and you wonder if his joy was a part of that. If you don't know the Lord of the Rings, you're going to have a hard time with this discussion.
Scott Allen:But go and read the book anyways, let me just bring us to an end here by saying something that I think is really interesting about our discussion. Lennox, as you have done as well, I'm familiar with some of your recent writing on Christian nationalism. I think that whole thing with Christian nationalism is, in a sense, just what we're talking about. It's a name that the enemies of the gospel have given us, and they've said what that means is you're trying to cram down, you know you're kind of trying to create a theocracy and impose your will on people and impose, you know, et cetera, et cetera, and then Christians go. No, I'm not that, I'm not that Right, you know so.
Scott Allen:But what I do notice about this discussion on Christian nationalism in the just, in the church, is it's opened up this really healthy discussion, I think, about just what we're talking about today. What does it mean? Should we engage in the culture and how? How should we engage in the culture? Right? Because clearly, if you're a Christian nationalist, at some point you want to engage in the culture, right? You know you want to shape a nation, and I've been, like you, lennox, following that debate and it seems to me that the way that that gets debated largely, as I've looked at it is around, primarily around, law and politics, like the way that we're going to engage cultures is through law and politics.
Scott Allen:What's your view on that. You know blah, blah blah. I just want to highlight something that I think is really fascinating. We haven't talked about that at all. In this hour and a half long conversation about how we should tactically engage the culture, have we?
Scott Allen:Not to say that that's not important, but I think we get into a little bit of a cul-de-sac on that, acting like that's the only thing and actually it's not even the most important thing in my view, or it's way downstream of these things that we've been talking about Again. Not that we shouldn't try to have good policy and Christians shouldn't be working in that arena, especially in a representative democracy like the United States requires it right. We're not a kingdom, we're a representative democracy. All that to say, just to say, hey, we've got to focus kind of narrowly on that and nothing else. I think is really missing the boat. Any thoughts from you on that?
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, I think law and politics flows downstream from culture, right, like if you get the culture, eventually you'll get the law and the politics too. So that's not to say that law and politics aren't important. They are. And yet the way to influence those things would be to influence the culture. It's just as you said in a representative democracy, I mean, I think there's some people who think democracy on its own will save them.
Lennox Kalifungwa:But if people have a worship disorder and believe lies, they are going to be enslaved to their poor choices, even in a democracy.
Lennox Kalifungwa:And therefore, if we can win the cultural battle and influence their beliefs and their values and their practices toward truth, I think the laws and the politics down the road will be won over as well. But I don't think that's necessarily where the fighting begins. And that's not to say that we should not concern ourselves with law. I mean, for example, I think we should be trying to abolish abortion, for example, even legally right, but while we're doing that we're also instilling and trying to build a culture of fertility, right? So the two in that sense sense, have to work very closely together.
Lennox Kalifungwa:And so I think, yes, the conversation around Christian nationalism falls short when it's just about laws and politics because, again, fundamentally our problem is a worship disorder, right, and not simply a governing malfunction of sorts. People have turned their backs on God and that's why we are where we are, and that's why, in the gospel, we're showing people what Christ has accomplished, where we're calling men to repentance, and, as we call them to repentance and they are believing, we're discipling them and building a new culture that ultimately glorifies God. That's how we win.
Scott Allen:And, by the way, that process, if you look at how it's played itself out in cultures that have been deeply shaped by the Bible, it plays itself out over generations, doesn't it?
Scott Allen:Yes, I was thinking about the author of Dominion the book you know, who came out as a non-Christian and after he looked deeply at England vis-a-vis ancient Rome, you know, and the culture of ancient Rome and ancient Greece, and he saw the brutality and the lack of humanity and all of these things, he realized, oh my gosh, I live in a culture that's so deeply shaped it's morality, it's view of people, it's so deeply shaped by the Bible that he kind of came to the point of saying I'm a Christian. Right, Even without knowing it, I'm a Christian.
Dwight Vogt:And to me.
Scott Allen:that's kind of, in some ways, the goal. It's to so deeply embed these ideas in a culture, these principles and definitions, because they're good, and he recognized that these are really beautiful and good things. I don't want to lose them. And he's speaking as a non-Christian Again. He's just recently come to Christ, but he had all of this insight even as a non-Christian. It took how many generations to weave and to sew into the fabric of that culture. Right?
Lennox Kalifungwa:It didn't happen by passing a law.
Scott Allen:Let's pass some laws right, exactly, exactly.
Lennox Kalifungwa:It didn't happen that way, and it's interesting. Scott, you know there's a lot of talk about how the West has abandoned its heritage, and that is true, and yet I find it interesting how it's that same heritage that has also been the reason for revival and reformation among even people like Tom Holland, and so I think that's part of how we need to be thinking long term and multigenerationally, as we're building with multiple generations in mind. Should there be a slip up somewhere down the line? Should there be a slip up somewhere down the line, you pray that the foundations that you've established are firm enough and formidable enough for people to return to it as a pillar, and I think that we're starting to see that. Jordan Peterson's of this world, even Richard Dawkins to some degree now yeah, no, you've just mentioned Tom Holland as well.
Scott Allen:There's a real. I mean we've talked about it many times. It's very exciting to see what's happening right now and I think the catalyst for it is that all of the beauty again we've talked about the goodness and the beauty is under threat right Now. It could be replaced and the replacement can happen in short order. That doesn't have to take generations.
Dwight Vogt:It can happen in one generation.
Scott Allen:It could be replaced by Islam, islamic culture or Marxist kind of cultural Marxist culture that you would see in North Korea or Russia. That can happen pretty quickly and I think that's the catalyst. People are seeing the threat. It's real, it could change very quickly and they don't want it to change and they threat it's real. It could change very quickly and they don't want it to change and they've never thought that way before.
Dwight Vogt:They've just taken it for granted. I think yeah, exactly yeah.
Scott Allen:Well, it's been such a terrific discussion, lennox and boy, you know again, we could go on and on, but you've sure shared a lot of wisdom with us today and a lot of, I think, very practical thoughts and advice for how we can, at the tactical level, be about engaging in our culture as Christians, as people who want to honor God and operate very biblically, and I want to just really thank you for that and we look forward to having you back on. And, dwight, I want to thank you for your part in this conversation, Luke, too, and just for all of you who have listened again to our podcast. We're so grateful. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations.
Luke Allen:Thank you for joining us for this episode with Lennox Califungo. As always, to learn more about our guest and find any of the resources that we mentioned during the episode, make sure to head over to the episode page, which you'll see linked in the show notes. On this week's page, you'll see more information about Lennox, where you can find him online, and especially a link to his sub stack, which I would highly recommend that you go and take a look at, because in today's discussion, you only heard a fraction of his heart's cry, which is to build distinctly Christian cultures, whereas if you go check out some of the articles in his sub stack, you'll gain a much fuller idea about what that can and should look like. So, again, all that and more is on the episode page. Go give it a look.
Luke Allen:Ideas have Consequences is brought to you by the Disciple Nations Alliance, which, for those of you who are new, is a ministry that has worked around the world for the last 27 years, training over a million people in over 90 nations with a biblical worldview. If you'd like to learn more about our ministry, you can find us on Instagram, facebook and YouTube, or on our website, which is disciplenationsorg. Thanks again for joining us and we hope you're able to join us again next week here on. Ideas have Consequences.