"If you don't understand the battle of worldviews, you can't really understand anything." This statement from today's guest, Dr. Jeff Myers, summarizes the episode well. Dr. Myers, president of Summit Ministries, brings us boots-on-the-ground perspectives from three of the most active theaters in the battle of worldviews: the battles over truth, the hearts and minds of Generation Z, and the Israel-Hamas conflict. Dr. Myers offers a treasure trove of strategies poised to inspire anyone involved in or seeking wisdom in these crucial battles. You'll hear a clarion call to uphold personal integrity amid societal manipulation, and be reminded to recognize your indispensable role in God's ongoing cultural commission.
"If you don't understand the battle of worldviews, you can't really understand anything." This statement from today's guest, Dr. Jeff Myers, summarizes the episode well. Dr. Myers, president of Summit Ministries, brings us boots-on-the-ground perspectives from three of the most active theaters in the battle of worldviews: the battles over truth, the hearts and minds of Generation Z, and the Israel-Hamas conflict. Dr. Myers offers a treasure trove of strategies poised to inspire anyone involved in or seeking wisdom in these crucial battles. You'll hear a clarion call to uphold personal integrity amid societal manipulation, and be reminded to recognize your indispensable role in God's ongoing cultural commission.
It's not about not having doubts. It's about doubting your doubts as much as you doubt the things you're doubting.
Luke Allen:Hi friends, welcome to Ideas have Consequences. The podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. Here on this show we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the Gospel around the world, to all the nations, but our mission also includes to be the hands and feet of God, to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the Church has largely neglected this second part of her mission and today most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.
Scott Allen:From again everybody to another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. I'm Scott Allen, I'm the president of the DNA and joined today by my friends and co-workers Dwight Vogt, luke Allen, darryl Miller, and we are thrilled to have back with us as a guest today Dr Jeff Myers, the president of Summit Ministries. We had him on in October or November last fall, basically, and we didn't have enough time, and so he was gracious enough to say I'll come back. And here we are today. Dr Myers, thank you so much for being with us.
Jeff Myers:Scott, it's great to be back with you, and we didn't have Darryl in that earlier conversation, so, darryl, it's great to see you. I'm glad you're. We can all join together today.
Darrow Miller:I agree. It's so good to see you, Jeff, and so appreciate the work you've God's called you to lead in, so we have a lot in common.
Jeff Myers:Yeah, yeah, we do. Well, I love DNA. I expressed that when we met back last fall and Scott your book, you really dialed it in on critical theory and the misuse of social justice and all of those things that we're really passionate about as well.
Scott Allen:Thank you so much. Well, we are here to talk more about your most recent book, jeff, and just to talk about the themes around it, but before we do that, I just want to again remind our listeners that can I say, jeff, is that okay?
Jeff Myers:Yeah, okay, yeah please, Since you have a.
Scott Allen:PhD. I'm always tempted to just say doctor, because you are a doctor, but I'll call you Jeff. Yeah, and so Jeff is the president of Summit Ministries, which is really, I would say, in some ways, the preeminent worldview training ministry in the United States today, one of the top ministries, and I really mean that sincerely. If you don't know about Summit Ministries, you need to learn, you need to go on their website, you need to learn what they're about, what they're doing. They're particularly focused on young people and it's just such a strategic ministry and we're so grateful for it and for your leadership, Jeff.
Scott Allen:Jeff has his doctorate, as I mentioned, in philosophy, which is the love of wisdom. I love that. He has his doctorate in philosophy from the University of Denver and an author of many books, and his most recent is, as we talked about last time, it's called Truth Changes Everything, and the subtitle is how People of Faith Can Transform the World in Times of Crisis, and we like both the title and the subtitle a lot. So, yeah, Anyways, that's what we wanted to pick up on again, because we really had a terrific discussion at the beginning of that, but we didn't have really a chance to finish it off. Yeah.
Jeff Myers:Well, you know, a lot of worldviews are the worship of dead people.
Jeff Myers:For a couple of reasons. First of all, it gives us a feeling that we have an origin somewhere deeper in the past, and second of all, because dead people can't make any further mistakes. But we worship a risen Christ and while other worldviews may be totalizing in the sense that they explain everything, they explain everything in a way of controlling it, whereas a biblical worldview and I know, darryl, you've written about this in many of your books frees people up. It opens up possibilities based on human flourishing and bringing blessing to the nations. It's completely different in that respect.
Scott Allen:Jeff, I would like to talk to you a little bit about. I think when we were on last time we talked about your motivation for writing this book and you really struck me because you said you know at the time you know and you still are, you know you had that cancer diagnosis, although it sounds like the news right now is looking good. I'm really grateful to hear that. But you had mentioned that this may be the last book that you wrote. You know you write and I've never been there, never been in that place where I had that thought. I'm sure that you know that really had some influence on the way you thought about approaching this book and one of the reasons, one of the questions we asked was just why did you write it? What was your kind of, what were you trying to accomplish?
Scott Allen:And you mentioned that you use the word apathetic, that there's just a lot of apathy in the evangelical world, the Christian community, about the challenging, very challenging times that we're living in right now.
Scott Allen:There's just a lot of challenges in our culture in the West and one of the responses that we're seeing, at least among part of the church, is just kind of almost a, you know, a kind of tossing up of the hands and saying, you know, it's hopeless, we just need to hang on. Jesus is coming back. You know, even to the point of saying I'm just going to disengage, right, I'm not going to vote anymore, because who knows if my vote's going to count or whatever it is. You know, I'm not going to engage, and that struck me and I was so grateful that you were saying I'm going to do something about that. I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to challenge people that have that view. So I'd kind of like to pick up on that a little bit. And you know what is your message, jeff, in this book or otherwise, to Christians who think that way, who have that, that mindset.
Jeff Myers:Yeah, it's a tough question. There's no doubt that we live in difficult times. We, I think for, from speaking for myself, I had parents and grandparents in particular, who believed that Americans were, you know, we're brave and smart and we have a big government and we can solve problems, we can fix it and, and I think, a lot of people today 80, some percent of people don't trust the government. They don't believe the government can do anything, but they don't actually believe they themselves can do anything that would really make a difference. Bunch of reasons why that might be the case.
Jeff Myers:But you know that I'm thinking back to the scripture do do not be conformed to this world or to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. That idea of age, when it got translated into Latin from Greek, they use the word secular, secular secular means an aid, a lifespan of a person, theoretically a hundred years, you know so. So all that you can influence is what's happening in your lifetime. Okay, that that's it. That's the idea and that's what Paul is telling us to not be conformed to, because we are to be transformed by the renewing of our mind. That means seeing everything in the world as God sees it. The living of life is actually a constant act of prayer, asking God what do you see that you want me to see? What are you hearing that you want me to hear? Where is your attention directed? That my attention needs to be directed? And that can only happen if you have a transgenerational approach, if you realize that what you're building isn't really for you, it's for others. That you first, not a me first mindset is something that transcends even our own lifetimes. We've all at one point in time all of us on this podcast have asked the question what about my children or grandchildren or future generations? What will the impact of my decision be Six generations from now? Not just during my own lifetime or not just this week? So I would encourage believers to.
Jeff Myers:I don't mean to be judgmental about this, but there's a narcissism to the idea that I can't make a difference because it's just me up against the entire world. This isn't the way God teaches us to think in scripture. God teaches us to think from his perspective and to plumb his wisdom and his knowledge. Colossians, chapter two says in him, in Christ, are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. So there are answers, but not easy ones. I was just recently in Israel and I met with one of the hostage moms and she said something. It's really simple but really profound. She said hard isn't bad, hard is just hard. So we wake up every day and we say, god, thank you for putting breath in my lungs. You've restored my soul to me. Now enable me to be a blessing.
Scott Allen:I wanna pick up on two things you said and these are kind of new thoughts from me, but they're not new. You know you mentioned I can't do anything, right, and there's a truth to that. Right, there's a truth that these issues and problems that we're facing in the culture, in the times that we live in, are big and they're too big for me, and that's true. There's a truth to that. But there's also a lie to that, and the lie to that is that you're supposed to do this on your own right and that God is somehow not engaged, right.
Scott Allen:I think that's such a faulty thought that a lot of people have it. Somehow God is asleep or he's up in heaven. He's not really doing anything actively. No, he's intimately involved in this creation. Nothing happens apart from his will and he's called us to be active ourselves and he's got assignments for us, right. He's got good works he's prepared in advance for us to do. And so if you have this idea that, hey, there's nothing I can do, it's this kind of apathetic thing you're gonna miss the assignment that God has for you right, potentially, and that's a really horrible thing.
Jeff Myers:I talk to students. That's my love. That's what I have committed my life to. I'm now working with the third generation of students.
Jeff Myers:I started with my own generation, gen X, then worked with millennials and now working with Gen Z and one thing a lot of young people have in common is they actually know their powerlessness a little better than maybe other people do, because they don't. Mainly, they feel because they don't have financial resources, but I always share with them listen that all of life is a currency exchange. If you don't have the financial resources, you are looking at other resources that you have. Trust me, I'm the president of an organization. It's millions of dollars a year and I do not have all power. I have, however, all these other resources, and when you're 16, you have these resources. You have the resources to develop it you have.
Jeff Myers:If you have a desire to learn, that's a currency. If you're curious, that's a currency. If you are willing to develop a network, humble yourself and seek wisdom, that's a currency. Your friends, that's a currency. Your gifts and talents that's a currency. You have all the currencies that you will ever trade in, except for dollars, and that's once we see. Oh okay, so it's not a matter of. I'm comparing myself to somebody who has dollars and therefore they can do more. I'm asking God what currency have you given me? It doesn't matter if I'm a one talent servant. I can't bury it.
Scott Allen:It's a message we teach all over the world, dr Meyer, ed Jeff, because we come out of poverty and development and this mindset of I'm materially poor is just a prevalent mindset in people in the developing world, all over the world. And so we teach exactly what you're saying right there. This, first of all, that's a materialistic idea, right, that somehow money is the thing that's gonna make the difference. But then, secondly, what is the source of wealth? And we use the word currency I like that we use the word capital. What has God given you? What capital do you have? And just helping people to reckon with, they have a lot more than they think and they see, and they have to steward that, because once you see it, once you know it, you've got to steward that.
Jeff Myers:Yeah, it's powerful yeah.
Dwight Vogt:I have a question, jeff, just in terms of your training of young people. What do you say? You've trained three generations now. What are you seeing and like? What are the current ahas? Maybe this was one you just described right now, but what is it? That people are coming in and then you work with them and they get it and they leave. Is there something unique, a trend that you see?
Jeff Myers:In the needs that students have.
Dwight Vogt:Yeah, in the world view transformation that you're seeking to bring about, what do?
Scott Allen:you see, yeah, where are young people at? Give us a temperature check.
Dwight Vogt:Yeah, where are they at? They're coming in this way and they leave this way. You hope they leave this way, maybe.
Jeff Myers:Well, most young people are learners. They are curious and if you put them in the right environment that you can find ways to satiate that curiosity, they just keep coming back for more and more. So we really work hard to create a sense of mystery and explore together and find answers together, and they like that. It works better. It's sort of like you kind of picture Jesus walking along the road with his followers talking the parapetetic sort of ministry rather than just the expert. To the student, in fact, I tell people ask well, I have to be a believer to come study at Summit Ministries? And I say, well, actually no, but if you're not curious, you're not gonna like it. You know you've gotta be a learner. And are you a learner? Because I sense that you are, but I just need to hear it from you. That's the conversation that I have.
Jeff Myers:What stops learning? That's the big question I think not just educators need to deal with, but everybody in society. One of the main things that stops learning is fear, like I will feel stupid If I acknowledge that I don't have something. I will feel stupid and I don't like feeling stupid. You know, it's the old quote from RD Lang there's something I don't know that I am supposed to know. I don't know what it is that I don't know, and yet I'm supposed to know. And I feel that I look stupid if I seem both not to know it and not to know what it is that I don't know. Therefore, I pretend to know it right. And so you know it.
Darrow Miller:Could, you say that again, I know I was like wow, that was impressive.
Scott Allen:Yeah, it's a mind twister. Yeah, and it goes on.
Jeff Myers:That's not the entire quote, but that's enough to just get us started. So how can I help a young person feel safe? Safe space has a negative connotation today because people usually mean by it being safe from learning. In the post-modern world, People have come to believe and Carl Truman pointed this out very eloquently that if I feel bad about something that you're saying, then you're doing violence to me and so I need a safe space from you. We want to create a safe space to learn to grow, to acknowledge what you don't know and to be willing to ask questions. So we build our entire program around questions. The fear that young people have today is expressed in anxiety, in depression, suicidal ideation, a number of other mental health issues. But resilience comes from connection. I think it always has. You know, as a therapist's friend of mine puts it, sobriety is not the opposite of addiction. Connection is the opposite of addiction.
Jeff Myers:And it is that willingness to see the body of Christ in a new way. Say, oh, guess what we're learning together. If there's a lot of stuff that you don't know, that doesn't mean you're bad because you're better than me. It means that I need to hang out with you, I need to learn, I need to switch my position and start asking questions. That helps overcome that fear. That's what makes learning possible. So that's both what we see in this generation and what I think their real potential is.
Scott Allen:How do you Go ahead, Darrell? I think you were trying to get in on her Good.
Luke Allen:Luke Me. Yeah, just to piggyback off that, we're talking about apathy amongst Christians, and then we're talking about Gen Z. Right now I'm kind of right, I think I'm in a Gen Z category, I'm right on the edge. But Gen Z's had it rough recently. I mean, just look at our history. From the time most of us graduated high school, we immediately were hit by COVID and lockdowns and BLM riots and just two wars starting in the last couple years. It's been crazy, and usually after high school your head kind of pops up and you want to start figuring out what this big world is. So they're looking around and it's just chaotic. Has your messaging changed because of that? I mean, what I see from that obviously, is just a lot of fear and apathy from this generation. Yeah, yeah, at broad. Has your messaging changed, though, for Gen Z compared to the same millennials because of that?
Jeff Myers:Yeah, yes it has, luke. I appreciate the way you brought that up. You are right. We used to say and people still do say, and it's accurate that your generation is shaped primarily to the way you access technology From an oral culture to a written culture, from a written culture to a visual culture, from a visual culture to a technology-based culture to a social media-based culture. You can see the differences between generations just based on how we access technology.
Jeff Myers:But COVID, the COVID lockdowns, affected Gen Z in a way that I don't think we've really grappled with. A lot of young people said during COVID this is interesting. About 20 or so percent said this is really bad because I can't be with my friends. Almost 35% said this is really helpful to me because I don't have to be with my friends. Wow, ok, that's not what I would have expected. I expected that people would have said my whole life got shut down and I'm all alone and loneliness is the number one fear of Gen Z. But there's just this sense of when you're with other people, you're always having to take a risk and sometimes it feels good to not take a risk. So what do we do? How's our teaching changed since COVID? We focus a lot more on resilience. It's a big message. In fact, the summer of COVID, we did our programs all online because we're here in the state of Colorado Colorado lifted earlier than other places, but not early enough for us to have our programs here without running into some significant problems with our local authorities. So we just we move it online. It was a very simple decision for us and we called it the summer of grit. That idea of grit has become much more important and we directly attack it.
Jeff Myers:So you know, I tell a story about a trip to Israel, where we began the trip by going into the desert and it's barren, there's nothing there. And our guide said this is where the children of Israel hung out for decades, and there's. You would have to be sustained by God because there's nothing else there. But he said something that really grabbed my attention and that I try to share every chance I get. He said look, people think that God sends you into the desert to abandon you, but God is a God of the desert. The desert is his living room. He doesn't send you here to abandon you, he brings you here, he invites you here to be with you and we, you know I can get that intellectually, okay, yes.
Jeff Myers:Yes, the difficult times of life helped me build resilience. But you know it's simple If you go to the gym and say I really want to get in shape, coach, you know, give me the light as possible weight and is it going to be okay to just do one rep with the one pounders, you know, then I'll look like the guy on the wall. No, you know, you're not going to ever look like the guy on the wall. Resistance is what's going to build the resilience, and so that's been a unique message that we've had for this generation.
Jeff Myers:I even tell them in our program my prayer for you is not that you won't go into the desert, my prayer is for you that when you go into the desert, that God will meet you and will be with you and will strengthen you for the task that you have ahead. Second Timothy, chapter three the apostle Paul said at my first defense no one stood by me, but everyone deserted me. But the Lord stood with me and strengthened me so that I might fully preach the word and all the Gentiles might hear it. So the Lord rescued me from the lion's mouth. That is the attitude we want to have.
Scott Allen:That's great, jeff, yeah.
Luke Allen:If you'd like to explore what a biblical worldview is and how you can begin the journey of transforming your mind to start seeing everything through biblical perspectives, we would encourage you to check out our free biblical worldview training course, the Kingdomizer Training Program, which is available at cormedalecom and is also linked in the episode landing page. The Kingdomizer Training Program was created to help Christians live out their call to make disciples of all nations, starting with themselves and working out from there. I would recommend this course to any Christian who wants to stop living in a sacred secular divide that limits their faith to only some areas of life, but instead it will help them to start to see everything cormedale, which means before the face of God and to start connecting their passions and their calling to their faith. Begin to have an impact with Christ in your culture that, if it's anything like mine, is in desperate need for truth and purpose right now. Again, this course is completely free and available at cormedalecom.
Darrow Miller:The question I had a minute ago is how do you encourage the church writ large to be inquisitive?
Jeff Myers:Darryl, you've tapped into something that is a real sore spot for me. I came I almost was one of those kids who left high school and left church because I wanted to graduate from both. I didn't think the church was interested in the big questions. They certainly never came up and I don't think a lot of people in church ministry think about this. But what you don't talk about, the people in your congregation intuitively assume is not relevant.
Darrow Miller:Or they may be thinking about themselves, but too afraid to say anything.
Jeff Myers:Yeah, yeah. So I asked a lot of questions. I got brushed off honestly and I knew the people loved me and maybe they just didn't have the capacity, maybe they felt defensive, but it was at summit that, in fact, my introduction to summit. I may have mentioned this in our past talk. I came in the building which is an antique hotel here in Manitou Springs, colorado, right at the foot of Pike's Peak. I met David Noble, the founder of it, and I said I hope you have a lot of answers because I have a lot of questions. And I was serious and cocky about it. But he said look, we're not afraid of questions at summit. I can't tell you how much that set me free. I felt then I can engage about spiritual things, that God's plan for the world is actually not limited by people who aren't curious, so I can ask questions.
Jeff Myers:The church could lead in that, but why don't we? I mean, it's tough to say Did you get a George Barnas study? 95% of pastors say they believe the Bible speaks to today's issues. And then he gave him a list. Here are today's issues. Check off the ones you've ever preached on. It went from 95% down to 9% and at the same time. Two thirds of the people in the congregation are asking how does what we are studying this morning relate to my life at work and with my friends and at lunch or around the water cooler this coming week? And if we aren't answering that question, we're creating distance. We're creating the two-story model. Francis Schaeffer talked about it.
Darrow Miller:Well, this is why I'm asking the question, because why do people have to go to summit to be in an inquisitive environment? I was faced with the same thing at LaBrie when I was there years ago and I'd been in a Baptist seminary where there were certain questions you couldn't ask. It was taboo. Well, maybe you're not a Christian if you're asking those kinds of questions and there were only certain things you could talk about. And then I went to LaBrie. People from all over the world were coming and they were all bringing their questions.
Darrow Miller:And here's Francis Schaeffer and the people at LaBrie that weren't afraid of the questions. They said let's see what the Bible has to say about this. And it was a dialogue and I think the same thing you were saying a minute ago in your own life. I thought, oh, I can ask my questions and there are answers. And that's what put me on the path that I've been on all these years and the question for me at that time we could have stayed at LaBrie, but I want to go home and create a space where people can come and bring their questions. But how do you encourage the leadership within churches to become inquisitive and what is the barrier in the leadership of the church and I don't mean national leadership, I mean pastors. What's the barrier to them being inquisitive, and how do you stimulate that inquisitiveness to be part of church culture?
Jeff Myers:Hmm, Several years ago, one of my mentors came to breakfast. We met regularly and every time he came he said something that just blew my mind, and this particular breakfast he said did you know that Jesus asked 288 questions in the Gospels? And I said, paul, you counted them. He said I counted them. I said you are such a nerd.
Scott Allen:but that is fascinating to me 288 questions.
Jeff Myers:And then you start to analyze what those questions were and you realize that Jesus used a question-based approach to discipleship. This was not uncommon in his time. Jesus, of course, was a Jew. A lot of people forget that, and Jewish people even when they teach their own doctrines like, if you've read the Mishnah, you realize, okay, it's actually a dialogue. This is what one person's interpretation is. Here's another person's interpretation of it. Here's another. Here's what this person says about this person. It's very, very difficult to write that down in the form of a book, but that's what the Mishnah is, and even people who study it today say look, it's not. It's not for the purpose of saying we can settle all these questions, but to recognize that in the dialogue we are learning and growing. So yeah, if we just start with Jesus, okay, what did Jesus do by way of asking questions? Then we might ask the next one well, what questions do people have who are coming here?
Jeff Myers:When I travel to speak, especially when I'm with young adults, I ask them either ahead of time or while we're there, give out little cards or some process, but ask students. This is going to be the main thing we'll be discussing. What questions do you have about it. I was just at a Christian school, 200 students, 250 students. 225 questions came in before I even showed up. Now a couple things. I'm not gonna be able to answer all those questions, but two things can happen. Number one students come anticipating. I got a big question. I don't know if you'll answer it, but I'm tuned in. Second of all, I realize I can answer 225 questions, but I can answer a few and show how I think when I'm trying to answer questions and I wonder if that might be even be the better lesson. I mean, if you tie it all up with one little nice sentence but people aren't, it stops them from thinking further about it. I don't see how that's accomplishing a worthy goal.
Scott Allen:I might jump in. You know, just this weekend I was Jeff, I think you know I'm writing a book right now on words and I really wanna talk to you Maybe we can talk offline about this but on just the power of words. And the word that I'm working on right now is faith, and what I do is I look at how those words are defined biblically, the kind of the true definitions, and then how are they understood culturally? You know the false kind of definitions that are prevalent in our culture and it's so fascinating.
Scott Allen:If you look up the word faith in any major dictionary you know a Miriam Webster Oxford English Dictionary they have the similar definition of faith and it's the belief in something without evidence, without you know any evidence for it. You know it's just kind of the belief and I, you know this is so false, right? I mean, it's just it's horrible that that idea is out there. You know in the culture that this is what faith is, but I think that even the worst thing is it's been absorbed over the years I'm talking decades by the church, right, and this is what Darrow is getting at too.
Scott Allen:You know we've got a culture in the evangelical church that's like it's just, you just believe, right, you don't ask these questions, or so it's kind of crept in in this way of don't ask hard questions. But you know, the Greek word is evidence, right, and the Hebrew word is actually the same word for truth. This is the word faith, which means something that's trustworthy and reliable. You know, and you have to, you know. So faith is all about, you know, believing in something because it's true, it's trustworthy, reliable, dependable real right, but you can't get there until you ask tough questions, right?
Scott Allen:Can I really depend on this? You think about it in the relation, you know, getting married, right? I don't just, you know, trust that this person is gonna be a good spouse until I ask some hard questions, right? So, anyways, that's the kind of the biblical idea. I think we've just gotten away from that and I think part of the reason. I'd love your response to this. But it's just in evangelicalism, when we think of faith, we talk about saving faith. Everything is about saving faith. Well, that's important, right, Faith in the finished work of Jesus. But we don't kind of get back into just what is faith. It's asking hard questions so that we can see if something is true and dependable and right. You know, Any thoughts on that?
Scott Allen:It's just it ties in so well my you know what I was working on this weekend to what we're talking about right now.
Jeff Myers:Yes, and you hear people say just have faith.
Scott Allen:Right yeah, just yeah Faith and faith is just a big thing right now, you know. So yeah, yeah, yeah belief and belief yes.
Jeff Myers:Yes, you know Mark Twain. Do you remember Mark Twain, kind of tongue in cheek, said faith is believing what you know ain't so, and of course he's very tongue in cheek in the way he was saying it, but obviously that was his experience with believers in his day. Was that faith happens only when you don't have any doubts. But I don't know, it's some. We actually it's kind of this seems to set a lot of students free. We tell them it's not about not having doubts, it's about doubting your doubts. As much as you doubt the things you're doubting, that's good and they're like oh okay, so that's good. So just because I have a doubt doesn't mean I have to stop believing something. No, I mean, how do I ever do that? You got on an airplane to come here. Did you work out all the calculations related to aerodynamics before you got on the plane? No, do you personally have all the evidence? No, I mean, you don't. You kind of know the basic theory. Most people who get on a plane don't even know the basic theory, but you still trust because there's reason to trust and that's why it's so important to understand history. I think that's why, in the book True Change is Everything, I went back into history and looked at these world changers in the past. Why? Because from their lives to mine, I can see a trajectory and then I can turn around. Maybe there's something I can do to stay on that trajectory or even further it. So this is a super important question to us.
Jeff Myers:Scripture talks about faith, hope and love all operating together and, scott, I'd love to, when we get a chance to talk, talk about the word hope. So quick background. I just came back from Israel. Being there during the time of war is very difficult and I knew that it was going to be hard to see some of the things that I would see, and it was very difficult. It led me to ask a lot of people Where's the hope? And the answer I got was pretty consistent, even if people didn't have these exact words for it. They distinguished between optimism and hope. They talked about optimism as a good feeling about something. Hope is a willingness to act on what you believe to be true.
Scott Allen:Yeah, that's the definition of faith, by the way, in Hebrews. You know chapter 11, it's the assurance of what we hope for and we act on that.
Jeff Myers:Yeah, go ahead, yeah yeah, and we act on it in love. So you got faith, hope and love all coming together, which is wonderful. Listen, there are huge divisions in Israeli civil society. There are 55 political parties we think we have it bad 55,. 15 of them have seats in the Knesset, which is their parliament, and the majority party only has one fourth of the votes. So you have to figure out what the we is that ties all of us together, and that is something that I think is. It's just fascinating when we think about faith and then we think about hope and we think about love all tying together. There's some power there. I'd love to tease that out a little bit.
Scott Allen:Well, me too. You know you've mentioned your trip a couple of times, jeff. I'd like to. I have a question. I really want to get in, but I'd like to hear a little bit about what brought you to Israel at this time and what can you share with our listeners about what's happening there. Your experience is coming back. I mean, it's just such a really pivotal time for that nation, you know.
Jeff Myers:I've done two podcasts on the Dr Jeff Show podcast about this, one launched last week and then one this week. I know that the timing of the recording of this show kind of messes that up, but if you just remember the Dr Jeff Show podcast, you can find those and they're free and available wherever you get your podcasts. That the reason I went, and, luke, you'll relate to this as a Gen Z-er. It seemed to me that a very high percentage of Gen Z-ers were completely taken in by Hamas's message. They felt bad for the Palestinians but they actually ended up embracing Hamas, which is a terrorist group. So I wrote an editorial about this back in November and it was very. The title was very snarky. It was congratulations America, you've trained a generation of terrorist sympathizers.
Jeff Myers:But I was super concerned about that, about propaganda versus persuasion, about the truth of what's going on, about all the different factors that were at play. I intuitively understood that what's happening with Israel and Hamas right now is not your parents' Israel-Palestine conflict, that there's something new with Hamas in the mix. But I also wanted to go there personally and see what the source of trauma was for Israelis and just to be there with them, because sometimes people act in war in a way that you can't understand unless you've actually walked with them and been with them. So I wanted to do that and had the opportunity. It's not easy right now. I certainly had a lot of questions from security officials and passport officials about why I would want to go to Israel in a time of war, but I spent time touring some of the communities the Kibbutzum in southern Israel that were attacked by the Hamas terrorists. Visiting the site of the Nova Festival, where 367 young people were murdered and raped and their bodies were despoiled in unimaginable ways. Visiting a military base that was attacked Fascinating. The military base was attacked by Hamas Muslim terrorists. It was defended by IDF Bedouin Muslims. Anyway, just spending time there talking with people the military, people in the military, people in intelligence did not meet with any politicians that was not the goal of my trip. Meeting with others who were leaders, leading rabbis, leading scholars and so forth, and then also hostage families and survivors, to hear their stories and to just bear witness to what had happened there.
Jeff Myers:I think I came back with a sense that Israel's a nation that's fighting for itself. There are a lot of difficult aspects to this, politically and socially and militarily. I'm writing all of this out right now and it will turn into a book, because there are just so many things that have to be. In fact, there already is a book. I was just working on the manuscript before I got on the call with you guys.
Jeff Myers:I think what I'm coming back with is several things. If you don't understand the battle of worldviews, you can't really understand anything, not to mention what's happening with Israel and Hamas. Second, so you've got to understand something about the geopolitics, but you've also got to understand something about the theopolitics, because that's actually the bigger issue. So all of those things make me come back and want to communicate the truth, not the idea that it's Israel right or wrong. I agree with everything that the Israeli government does. Listen, nobody in Israel loves their government right now. From the far left to the far right, they are all ready for something to change. No, the question is is there actual truth? And then, what is the truth about God's plan through the ages? That involves the Jews, and how does that relate to the modern state of Israel? So I'm looking forward to telling that story and sharing some of those experiences.
Scott Allen:Well, we could go on and talk, but maybe that'll be our next conversation, because you're working on this right now. Darro has actually been working on this as well in a series of blogs and things.
Scott Allen:This is where his mind has been as well, but I just want to it segues right into what I wanted to ask about too, which is getting us back to the title of your book, and truth. Truth changes everything and we live in a time of really rampant propaganda right now. I mean, you see it right now in this Israel Hamas war. I mean, there's just so much propaganda and it's being effective. Right, young people are being swayed by all sorts of lies. I think that there's just so much coming out now, after Elon Musk bought Twitter and all that went on to censor things like COVID and the 2020 election, and just so much censorship and so much propaganda. It feels Orwellian.
Scott Allen:I'm not the first one to say that. We're kind of moving into this Orwellian time and this gets us back to apathy. Right, because you have young people saying I just can't, or not just young people, everybody, I can't. Who knows what's true? Right, I can't, you know. They just kind of throw up their hands and they say you know, we're just not going to know, right, so why even bother? What's your response to people that think that way right now, jeff, you know? And just because it's true, I mean, we're living in times where it's there's just a lot of lies, a lot of propaganda, but people kind of tossing up their hands and despair. You know what's your thought there.
Jeff Myers:Yeah, when I'm with my students I try to really cultivate the relationships so they feel safe. But there's an element of look, suck it up, buttercup. It is not easy to figure out, but that does not mean it's not figureoutable. Amen to that right there.
Scott Allen:Just start with that. I just think that's so important. There is a truth to be found. It may be really hard to find it, you might have to take a trip to Israel or to the southern border or wherever right.
Jeff Myers:You know, yeah, and you need to talk to Palestinians. Look, I spent a lot of time with Arabs as well as Israeli Arabs as well as Israeli Jews, time with Palestinians. We start to realize the power of a narrative and the narrative overtakes. When a narrative overtakes you and your only goal becomes to advance your narrative, then you move from persuasion into propaganda. Persuasion is using ethical arguments to move people toward the truth. You, propaganda, is using any argument, ethical or unethical, to move people toward yourself. That's a huge difference. And you can see the propaganda war having been started by Hamas on the day that it began.
Jeff Myers:The October 7th military campaign happened at the same time and we know this because there are 127 university chapters in the United States of America called, called Students for Justice in Palestine. And on October 7th maybe it was early on October 8th, before there was any Israeli military response they send out a press release condemning Israel's military response. They probably, their handlers probably should have told them look, you should wait until there is an Israeli military response before you condemn the Israeli military response. So they jumped the gun and when you look back at the documents they were working with, you realize this campaign was planned by Hamas for the United States of America, specifically including the slogan from the river to the sea, palestine will be free. 55% of young people cannot tell you what river or what sea they're even talking about, and that saying doesn't have the same ring to it in Arabic as it does in English. It was designed for an English speaking, english consuming audience, people who believe that if anybody has anything important to say, they'll say it in English, which is simply not the case.
Jeff Myers:The people doing the best work right now in Israel are the ones who are translating social media post-media interviews from Arabic into Hebrew and into English, because otherwise we wouldn't really know what people like these Hamas leaders actually think. So you have to learn to distinguish between propaganda persuasion. Then you have to be willing to commit to moving people toward the truth rather than just toward yourself At the end of the conversation. It's not. You don't want somebody saying, okay, fine, okay, fine, I agree that you're right. Okay, you win. No, you want people saying, okay, because of our conversation, I see the truth a little more clearly than I did before.
Darrow Miller:I think the other thing that these folks in the university they don't know history and they don't know the Holocaust, and so you don't have that as a background and now you have from the river to the sea. There's no relationship between what happened in Europe and what from the river to the sea means, so it's just, it's the slogan.
Jeff Myers:Yeah, yeah, it's a pretty effective slogan. I mean when people are in the streets chanting it, it sends a chill down my spine for all the wrong reasons, because you realize how easily people can be propagandized into something that's tragic.
Scott Allen:You know, go ahead, luke. You were gonna ask a question.
Luke Allen:Yeah, I mean we've talked about this on the podcast before, but it hit me pretty hard to watch that response by my peers after the October 7th attack. I just don't know how to talk to those people. I feel like, when you are overcome by propaganda, you don't wanna listen to the truth, you don't wanna reason, you don't wanna have a conversation, you don't wanna hear any facts. It's like talking to a wall. If I was gonna go talk to someone like that. But we have to. You know that's the only way to help these people, I assume.
Luke Allen:So how do we do that? You know, I think we talked about deconstruction a few weeks ago, jeff, on the podcast. We were talking about how approaching a young person going through deconstruction. Sometimes the worst thing you can do to them is just immediately tell them the truth, because that's exactly what they're expecting, and they've already learned the arguments and whatnot from that world of how to shut you down in that case or just push you away forever. And there's just. I see that so much is. I don't wanna talk to you, I will not listen to you. Nothing you say matters, no conversation, and I'm wondering how can we live in a society where that's the mindset of so many people.
Jeff Myers:I don't know. It's horrifying to think about, because if we all get to the place where nobody wants to talk anymore, then we've got Simon and Garfunkel's sound of silence. We don't have any. There's no place to go from there. I'm not really trying to. If people are super angry and you know when you're angry you always think that you're right it's pretty tough somebody's really angry to have any kind of a conversation with them at that moment. But when I do have the opportunity to have a conversation, which I have I've had a number of Q and as with students since I came back.
Jeff Myers:One of the things that I really try to keep in my mind is okay, express caring concern. A lot of people have believed the propaganda. But it's actually worse than that. It's kind of a form of mind control. If you go back and look at cult research and how people got stuck in cults and how they came out, you realize I think we've got a generation that's mind controlled, but not in the typical way. It wasn't like a group like the Mooneys or whatever who came along and did it. It happened differently and social medias can be a big part of that.
Jeff Myers:But what do you do? Well, you express caring concern and you ask questions that disrupt the narrative. So one of my Hamas disrupting narratives is it's well established that the top leaders of Hamas are all billionaires. Khalid Mashal, who was, he's the hero, he's the godlike figure in Hamas because he survived an Israeli assassination attempt in 1997. He lives in Qatar, he has a net worth of $5 billion, he lives in five-star hotels, flies around on private jets and I just ask if you were the leader of Hamas and you knew that the Ghazans were starving, would you be hoarding billions of dollars? Is that how you would act if you were a leader, disconfirming questions like that that disrupt the narrative?
Scott Allen:That's so good. Yeah, wow, I think your observation about cults is really good. I think it is true. I'm seeing the same, just a lot more of those cult-like mind control techniques. But again, it's not being done by some abstract little cult, but now it's being done kind of in mass. You've got whole groups like it's not just Hamas, there's a whole network that's behind that, as you said, and it includes people in the West as well, and they're using those same techniques. I think it's just part and parcel of the fact that we live in this post-truth kind of world where it's all about power. How do we manipulate people psychologically to get them to do what I want them to do? It's a very unbiblical way of thinking of the person. So I agree.
Jeff Myers:Yeah, somebody's gotta look into that more to apply some of the analysis about how people get indoctrinated into cults and how that relates to our current time.
Scott Allen:But I think what you're saying in terms of how you help people come out is so helpful. Jeff, thank you for that being empathetic and then asking disruptive questions in a loving way. I think that's really true. Those questions can really maybe not at the time, but they can put a little bit of a spike in the wheel of somebody's thinking yeah, Darryl, I stepped on you there, I'm sorry.
Darrow Miller:No, it's okay, you said something at the very beginning of our time that connected. We need to talk about a multi-generational project. You know, this isn't just about me today and then, when you have social media, it's about me how I'm feeling, about what I'm seeing on social media and how people are reacting to me. I mean, it's a very small time arena and no, this is a multi-generational project. And that as soon as you said that it connected to the cultural commission in Genesis, one where God's charge to us as human beings is to take what he has made and to do something with it.
Darrow Miller:And today, the whole issue of understanding our work within the context of the cultural commission is lacking. Yet, you know, I go to work and make money so I can have things, or I go to work, make money so I can support missions or whatever, but it's that short-term frame and we need. This is a multi-generational project in my life fits within the context of what God set out for us to do to take what he has given me, the talents, the abilities that you were talking about earlier that's the capital and to use that for the kingdom of God. And how do you? You know, I'm so happy with some of the stuff you've said today and the questions. And how do you, when you have a person who is thinking now, how do you help them see the multi-generationalness of what we're going to take them from this very small place on their social media too? Here's the whole universe.
Jeff Myers:Yeah, I'm still mulling over the idea that social media collapses your timeframe and the goal is to expand it back out. I think, as I mentioned earlier, that our life is actually a prayer in response to God's call. God, what do you see? What do you hear? Where is your attention directed? And I use the analogy with my students of a baton relay race you don't. If you're the first runner, your goal is to establish a pace that inspires the rest of your team to step it up, but you don't actually get to cross the finish line. And if we think of life in that way, then I do my very best and then I trust God for the outcome. But what choice do I have? You know, even in personal relationships, if I'm trying to control the outcome, then I'm always manipulating. If I just say, God, you take charge of the outcome, just let me be faithful, faithfully present, and maybe I can tell another Israel story of Final One. That kind of wraps this up here.
Jeff Myers:I met with a journalist there and he and I would disagree on most worldview questions. Let's say that right up front. His name is Amir Tabom, works for a newspaper called Hot Oretz, which is Israel's leftist newspaper, and he came from the Nahul's Kibbutz. His family was under siege for, I think they said, 14 hours. They were stuck in their safe room and his father, who was a retired military general, came to rescue him.
Jeff Myers:Anyways, he was telling this harrowing story. I asked him why would you go back? Now this guy's a secular Jew, progressive left. He said well, it's our mission. I said really, what do you mean? It's your mission To go back down to the border, where you know Gaza's gonna do this again if they ever get enough weapons. You know the Hamas. And he said well, our mission is to be right on the border because that's how we fight. I said but you're not carrying weapons. What do you mean by how we fight? And he said we fight with our presence. Okay, that's powerful, because I understand that idea of faithful presence. That's the main way I fight is showing up that I can do.
Scott Allen:Very good, reminds me of that famous quote from Alexander Salson eats and you know, let the lie come into the world, but not through me. And just this kind of need that we have sometimes to be personal resistance. You know I can't control all these big outcomes, but, uh, but it's not going to happen through me, you know, and, uh, I think that that in our, in our time, is a calling, and I, too, love this idea so much of a baton, jeff, and just the, the, uh, the race, that we owe it to the people that handed that baton to us and we owe it to the people that we're going to hand the baton off to. We have to be faithful right now, um, be in that bigger scheme that you were talking about, darrow that bigger picture, and not not just be absorbed with what you know, what, what's happening at this very moment. This has been such a rich and fruitful talk. Uh, dr Jeff, I can, I can get them both in there, but, uh, um, we, uh, we, so appreciated.
Scott Allen:I just want to draw our listeners attention once again to the book. Uh, truth changes everything, how people of faith can transform the world in times of crisis. What an important book for the times that we're living in right now. Thank you for writing that. Thank you for your work and for the work of summit ministries. I just want to encourage again our listeners to check that out and, um, if you um want to uh bless young people in your lives, direct them to summit ministries where they can ask the hard questions and and begin to get grounded in what it truly means to be a follower of Jesus Christ and to live faithfully in times of crisis. So, um, dr Meyer, thank you so much for, again, just your generous time with us and uh, and for your work, uh, your current work right now, um, on what's happening with Israel and the Hamas Israel war. We look forward to learning more about that as well.
Jeff Myers:So well, love the conversation and look anytime All right and uh just to our listeners.
Scott Allen:I want to thank you all again. Thank you for uh making this podcast part of your life. Um, once again, this is the uh ideas have consequences podcast of the disciple.
Luke Allen:Thank you for listening to this episode with Dr Jeff Myers. As always, for all things, ideas have consequences. Head to the episode page on our website, which is also linked in the show notes. On this week's particular episode page you can learn more about Dr Myers, summit ministries, his new book truth changes everything and the links to those two episodes of his podcast, the Dr Jeff show about his recent trip to Israel that he mentioned today. You'll also see the episode transcript on that page and links to our flagship course here at the disciple nations alliance, which again is the kingdomizer training program, which is a free biblical worldview course that, trust me, you won't regret taking. Ideas have consequences is brought to you by the disciple nations alliance. To learn more about our ministry, you can find us on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube or on our website, which is disciple nationsorg. Thanks again for joining us today. Please share the show with a friend and we hope you're able to join us here next week on ideas have consequences.