Deconstruction is a phrase that is becoming increasingly common. Many even in the faith community have started using this phrase. What is the result of this phenomenon? How is it impacting young people of faith? Is there anything useful or redeeming about it or is it always destructive? Today, we trace the evolution of deconstruction back to its philosophical roots with Jacques Derrida and unpack how it's reshaping Western thought and the spiritual landscape inside many churches. We look at this in a historical context and consider the worldviews behind this phenomenon of deconstruction. Finally, we examine the rising trend of faith deconstruction in Christian culture, looking at what it is, who is doing it, why it’s happening, and how we can respond to those who say they are deconstructing their faith.
Deconstruction is a phrase that is becoming increasingly common. Many even in the faith community have started using this phrase. What is the result of this phenomenon? How is it impacting young people of faith? Is there anything useful or redeeming about it or is it always destructive? Today, we trace the evolution of deconstruction back to its philosophical roots with Jacques Derrida and unpack how it's reshaping Western thought and the spiritual landscape inside many churches. We look at this in a historical context and consider the worldviews behind this phenomenon of deconstruction. Finally, we examine the rising trend of faith deconstruction in Christian culture, looking at what it is, who is doing it, why it’s happening, and how we can respond to those who say they are deconstructing their faith.
You can ask questions. God's not afraid of your questions, you know. But here's the thing. It gets to that presupposition. Are you searching for the truth or are you trying to just have your own personal beliefs validated?
Luke Allen:Hi friends, welcome to Ideas have Consequences. The podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. Here on this show we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world, to all the nations, but our mission also includes to be the hands and feet of God, to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the Church has largely neglected this second part of her mission and today most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.
Scott Allen:Well, welcome again to another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. My name is Scott Allen, I'm the president of the DNA and I'm joined today by my friends and co-workers Luke Allen, dwight Vo, tim Williams and Chloe Carson. Great to have all of you guys on the podcast today, great to be here. And hey, before we jump in, I just want to also just take this just a quick moment and thank you, our listeners. You know, as time has gone on, it seems like we're growing a kind of a small, little devoted audience of regular listeners and I just really want to appreciate those of you who take time to tune in to our musings. It means a lot to us and we love having your feedback and just welcome that and invite that too. But thank you, thank you all for tuning in to this episode and to our podcast, and also want to just encourage you to give us some positive reviews, because that always helps.
Scott Allen:Today, guys, we're going to be talking about a topic that gets a lot of attention, particularly if you're 30 and under I would say maybe 40 and under. If you're a little bit older than that, it might be new for you it's. The topic is deconstruction. Deconstruction particularly of faith. This is something that I think has it's, in certain circles, become a regular movement. Just a whole lot of people are jumping on board this bandwagon of deconstructing faith. For me, I was first kind of aware of the term of when Josh Harris kind of came out publicly. Josh Harris was one of the famous kind of pastors that initially was behind the Gospel Coalition. Very influential young pastor kind of came out and said hey, I'm kind of walking away from my faith and use the word deconstruction. And of course it's gone on from there and we'll talk a little bit more later about who is on this, who's on board with this movement, who are its leaders.
Scott Allen:But team, I thought we would just follow a simple outline today and try to and, by the way, we are not experts on this, but we are trying to kind of discern what's going on in the culture, understand it, and we bring obviously our own perspective to it as people who are concerned with culture and biblical worldview and truth and have some awareness of these things, and so we're going to bring our perspectives on this, not that as we go through, I'm sure we'll try to sort this out amongst ourselves as well, but the outline will just basically be a simple one what is it? What is this phenomenon? What is this movement? What do people mean by it? Who is who's being affected by it? Who's who's who's kind of what demographic are we speaking about in terms of this movement? And then, why? Why is it happening?
Scott Allen:And then, lastly, how? How do we respond to people in our lives, maybe even in our own families and our churches, who are saying, hey, I'm, you know I'm deconstructing my faith, you know I'm, I'm going through this process of deconstruction? How do you, how do you respond? So, guys, that's on good, all right. Well, let's, let's begin by just talking about what is it, and I feel like I want to go around the horn a little bit and get you guys's thoughts on this, but I did think it would be helpful, maybe at the beginning, just to talk about the word deconstruction.
Scott Allen:This is a word that you know I didn't go back and look at kind of the. There's that terrific tool that's so useful on Google that you can look at usage of words over time, and my guess is that if you went back 20 years, you wouldn't see, maybe 30 years you wouldn't see a lot of usage of that word, but it's then skyrocketed in the culture. So what is this word? Deconstruction? Where does it come from? Just some thoughts on that for myself before we get going. You know, this is, I think, a word that comes into the culture through the ideology, the worldview of postmodernism, and particularly some thinkers like Michel Foucault, jacques Derrida, these French postmodernist philosophers many of them were Marxists who lived in the 19, who are doing their primary work in the 1950s and 60s.
Luke Allen:And yeah, I think modern go ahead. It was Jacques Derrida who was the first one to coin the term deconstruction theory, postmodern or deconstruction, yeah, literary deconstruction, and you know, in the case of Derrida.
Scott Allen:But but these ideas, these postmodern ideas, you know, as we talk a lot about in the DNA. They start with kind of intellectual thought leaders but then they percolate down through culture, usually kind of following the following progression kind of you get picked up by art and then they get picked up from there by professional classes and they get institutionalized, particularly in the area of education, higher education All of this has happened in the West and then they percolate down to the common man, you know kind of everyday people, including Christians and the pews, and I think that's where we're at today. I'm sure that's where we're at today. These terms have come down and percolated down and now they're kind of in the air that we breathe. And so if you're a common person, everyday person, you may never have heard of Jacques Derrida or you may never have heard of Michelle Foucault or some of these postmodern theorists. You couldn't begin to explain the basics of postmodernism, but you are affected by these ideas. They've kind of shaped a lot of the way that you begin to think.
Scott Allen:So just a little bit about some of the presuppositions of postmodernism. We talked about this quite a bit, but I just think to boil it down to some basics. First of all, postmodernism is an atheistic ideology. You know, as a basic presupposition there is no God. So they would agree with hardcore atheists or secularists. You know we live in a godless universe, right, and people are therefore just evolved. You know, beings with no particular meaning or purpose, right, we're just material beings. So that's a basic starting point. And because there's no God, there is no ultimate or objective truth. That's out there, right. You know that you have to understand. That's the basic of kind of postmodernism. There is no objective, ultimate truth.
Scott Allen:So therefore they go on and they say if anyone is making a claim of objective truth, like Christians would, about God or the Bible, christian morality, any of these kind of claims of objective truth, truth beyond what I personally believe, they've gotten nefarious motives. In other words, they're making those claims about objective truth Not, again, there isn't such a thing as objective truth. They're making that claim in order to set themselves up in a position of power so that they can exploit those without power for selfish gain. And that gets us to the term deconstruction. In other words, these claims of truth, objective truth, are really just. You know, they're kind of decoys. They're ways that people have manipulated other people in ways that have amassed for themselves power and benefit.
Scott Allen:So everything that is a claim of objective truth at some level has to be kind of questioned, challenged. We have to see the motive behind it. What's the selfish motive, you know? What's the power motive? Again, if there's no such thing as objective truth, all that exists, actually all that exists, is power. Right, it's this fight for power, kind of in the human sphere, you know, it's this kind of battle for the king of the hill like so that's, I'm talking about post-modernism. Go ahead, do I? Yeah?
Dwight Vogt:Yeah, and I'm thinking, implicit in all that you just said is the rejection of authority because authority says I know what's true or I have some truth to deal with. And the second is I need or have power, the responsibility of power, to execute that truth. And with that, that's authority. And so with post-modernism, it's all about egalitarianism. There is no authority. There's no good authority realities who can't live without it.
Scott Allen:Yeah, you can't live without it. Somebody's always going to have authority, but then the person with authority can't really be legitimate, because they've kind of amassed that power that puts them in authority through illegitimate means and they're using it selfishly. It has to be torn down has to be deconstructed right.
Dwight Vogt:Right, and so to say that the Bible has authority is like a nonsense, then you know.
Scott Allen:Yeah, and specifically, you know, when it comes to the authority of the Bible and here we get into, you know, the authority of the Bible to speak on issues of morality, and particularly this is going to be a big one in this discussion sexual morality. There isn't an objective sexual morality, right, this is what the post-modern would say. There is no such thing. And so that becomes a power play by Christians to say, oh, there is objective sexual reality, sexual mores, sexual norms it's not just what you believe. They've amassed power at the expense of what we might call sexual minorities, gay, the whole LGBTQ spectrum. Right, these are the oppressed minorities, and so this Christian notion of objective sexual ethics has to be deconstructed because it's being harmful, exploitative towards these minorities.
Scott Allen:This is the whole milieu, the way of thinking of post-modernism, and I, you know, and it goes hand in glove with critical theory. Critical theory, the Marxist idea of critical theory, is we have to be critical of truth claims, right, you have to kind of unmask them. Like what's going on behind that truth claim? It's always some kind of manipulation of claims of objective truth in order to gain power to exploit people. Now, as Christians, we would say, okay, yeah, right, sometimes people do that kind of stuff to gain power and exploit people, but not always right, you know, is the whole world nothing but you know, amassing power and exploiting people, you know? No, I mean, you know there did Jesus do that, you know, but that's the worldview that these post-modern folks have put forward, and they are the ones that use the word deconstruction right, they brought that word into our vocabulary, so so that gets picked up, and now a lot of Christians are using the word to talk about deconstructing their faith.
Dwight Vogt:Just a little background. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, and that's part of the issue. It's like it's. It's so widely used now that anyone who's questioning some aspect of their faith which is all of us at some point, you know hope me in my unbelief. Increase my faith that becomes deconstruction. It's like well, you're questioning some aspect of your faith. You are now a deconstructionist.
Scott Allen:Oh, wow, Without knowledge of where the word comes from or the whole post-modern kind of theory right exactly. And that's a problem, because these words have force, they have the force of that history behind them that you end up kind of bringing a lot of that post-modern baggage into a discussion, maybe without even being aware of it.
Luke Allen:Yeah, I just think of you know, in a way it is kind of a clarifying term for people you know, oh, you're going through deconstruction because you're questioning the Bible. But I can just picture, you know, maybe you know a little bit of a misinformed youth pastor telling his students who are questioning their faith, oh, you're going through deconstruction. And then that student goes home and they start Googling and looking this up and looking at the deconstruction hashtag, which I think some of us have looked at, and you get into this whole realm of philosophy and rhetoric. That is a lot of it very anti-biblical, very anti-truth because of its roots, you know. So using that word without knowing the meaning of it can be, you know, really harmful.
Luke Allen:Dad, I loved how you started out today by going back into the. You know we're looking at the consequences today of the deconstruction movement, but going back to the ideas and the roots of those in post-modernism and then of course, before post-modernism, in atheism, in Marxism and now the outflows of that today, like we do a lot here on the podcast, we're talking about a worldview today and, as we've explained before, all worldviews answer kind of four primary questions. Would you just really quickly, dad or Dwight, answer the four primary questions for a post-modernist, just so we can give a quick understanding of what a post-modern worldview looks like.
Dwight Vogt:Well, the first one is what is ultimate reality?
Scott Allen:And.
Dwight Vogt:Scott, what does a post-modern say as ultimate reality?
Scott Allen:I think it all kind of comes down to okay, it's not God, god doesn't exist, so all that exists is what's here on earth, you know, and the human realm, and then you know what kind of becomes ultimate is just this quest for power, I would say, in a post-modern worldview, or in power, negatively, you know. Again, christians are used to thinking of power in terms of like, for example, jesus, all power and authority has been given to me. Well, god is good. So power, you know, isn't viewed entirely negatively, but for a post-modern it is. It's always negative, it's always used to exploit, and so that becomes ultimate like just this quest for power. Nothing exists outside of this quest for power and exploitation and you know, some groups got the power and they need to be torn down right, so that's, yeah, that's the basis of kind of what's ultimately real in this worldview. It's this power dynamic, yeah. The second question, luke, that all worldviews answer, you know, is what does it mean to be human? Who?
Luke Allen:is man.
Scott Allen:Yeah, who is man? And you know, again they would borrow the Darwinian idea where there is no God. We're evolved creatures, you know, that don't have any inherent purpose or value, and then they would add to this kind of a sociological kind of element too that we're socially determined creatures, right, so we're kind of determined by our groups and those kind of get into things like skin color. So you know, you think the way your group does and there's really no escaping that. Go ahead, dwight.
Dwight Vogt:Well, I think it doesn't have to be. There's atheist deconstructionists, there's agnostic deconstructionists, because the other side of it is who am I? Basically, I am the center. So whatever truth is out there does come from me.
Scott Allen:So somehow I am the center. Yeah, that's a really important clarification, right? If there is no God, I become kind of God in a sense. Right, I'm the one who determines what's ultimately true.
Luke Allen:Well, that's the next question who is God? And the four worldview questions. And if your answer is there is no God, then by default you are God. You are the God.
Scott Allen:Right, and if you are the God, then yeah, then we all can't be God, right? I mean, that's the thing, somebody's going to have authority. So then it leads you to this kind of critical like you're using, you're manipulating somehow, you've manipulated, you gain the system in order to gain power over me or over you know, or whatever. It is right. It's always that kind of sense of what's going on in postmodernism. And then, yeah, I guess the last big question, or well, let's see.
Dwight Vogt:I mean, there's a number of these big. What is my purpose has to come in here someplace, Right? What's the purpose of humanity, you know?
Scott Allen:yeah, yeah, I think postmodernist would say the purpose is to yeah, then it's, this kind of deconstruction becomes kind of a purpose. It's to unmask and deconstruct these power, you know these sources of power, because they're oppressing me, right, and so it's kind of we've got to escape or get ourselves out from under the heel or the boot of this oppressor, and so that means it's gotta be deconstructed, unmasked, you know.
Dwight Vogt:I mean ultimately, it's liberty, it's freedom, it's autonomy, it's you know, and then making sure you don't crush anybody else's autonomy.
Scott Allen:But I mean that's how I read it.
Scott Allen:Well, that's what they, you know, right? So this is where it kind of gets married to Marxism so closely, because, yeah, the idea of Marxism, you've got this, you know oppressor group, you know they need to be toppled, right? You know this revolutionary fashion and then everyone will be perfectly equal, right? Well, no, it never works that way. Always there's gonna be somebody on top. And it's so interesting, by the way, guys, just really quick on that, I was just reading, I've been reading oh shoot, what's a Christopher Rufo's book, you know, on kind of modern day Marxism and he's talking about the George Floyd riots of 2020 and he's looking specifically at what happened in Seattle.
Scott Allen:And he's looking specifically about that. You know that moment when the city government and city police kind of abandoned one of the police precincts there in downtown Seattle and they left that whole part of the city. They just abandoned it and left it in the hands of the protesters the Black Lives Matter, you know, antifa, you know, et cetera. You know protesters who then all of a sudden set up borders and created what they called CHAS, right, the I think it was called Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone and he's looking at that. You know that little CHAS experiment, because it was kind of a fascinating little like laboratory of what happens when people actually, okay, we've kicked out the oppressors, the police, the city, whatever it is, the criminal justice system, now we're in control. What are you gonna do? What's it look like?
Scott Allen:And they tried. First of all, they said well, you know, they struggled with leadership, like how do we speak? Who's gonna speak for our group, so that we can make our needs known? Well, they became very skeptical of anyone kind of claiming that authority to speak on behalf of the group, right, and so we all are equal, right, but then that doesn't work. And finally, you know, somebody did kind of claim power over the group by force of weapons. They actually whipped out their guns, and so I'm laughing, it's not funny, it just never works. This idea it's like yeah, this kind of utopian idea of somehow having perfect equality.
Tim Williams:I like trying to make that happen. Something about following nature. You know it comes into play also, right?
Luke Allen:Yeah right.
Scott Allen:I think we're drifting a little bit, though, from our topic. Although this is good, I wanna come back to our first question. What are we talking about when we talk about deconstructing faith? Let's go around a little bit on that. Go ahead Luke.
Luke Allen:Yeah, if you wouldn't mind, there's a book coming out soon by the two authors that I enjoy, or speakers, slash authors, commentators Elisa Childers and Tim Barnett. Probably most of our listeners will know who those guys are. They saw that deconstruction is on the rise right now and they thought that they would write a book on it. So the book's actually coming out in the next few days, so probably by the time this episode comes out you can go find that book. It's called the Deconstruction of Christianity, why it's destructive and how to respond. So pretty straightforward title. There In the book they define deconstruction and I like this definition. They define it as a postmodern process of assessing your beliefs, but not by using scripture as your standard. So that's a postmodernism, is the root, and the rejection of scripture, as the inerrancy of scripture, is an often theme amongst those deconstructing their faith, which is quite dangerous because as soon as you lose the authority of scripture, all things are on the table.
Luke Allen:Essentially, and that's what we're seeing Through, I would say a majority of people that say they're deconstructing. I think a lot of people also are using this term in a different way than we are today. Maybe they call it healthy deconstruction or whatever. And what they're you know? I would say they're probably misusing the word, but what they're saying is we're just trying to, you know, be like the Brians in Acts 17,. Test all things, hold fast to what is good, you know, not getting taken captive by any hollow or deceptive philosophy, as it talks about in Colossians 2.8. And, but I would categorize that not as deconstruction. I would say we should probably use a different term for that, because of what we just talked about and how deconstruction theory came directly from Jacques Derrida Discernment.
Luke Allen:And yeah, discernment's a good word for that. I've heard some people say we should use a word reformation, you know? Critical thinking, investigation, yeah, I just Apologetics, yeah, all good things that Christians we should all do. But yeah, like we were just saying, I don't know if we need to use this new word.
Scott Allen:Yeah, let's talk about that. Luke, I agree with you. I think that using this word is not helpful. By the way, alisa Childers is somebody I think is. I have really high regard for her teaching writing. Just recommend her books to our audience, and especially this new one. I think her definition of deconstructing faith is helpful, especially when she says the Bible isn't the basis for kind of truth, right? What she doesn't say is and I think what's implied is that then I'm the basis for you know, and I think that's at the heart of true deconstruction of faith I get to kind of sit in judgment over Christian beliefs and I'm kind of the ultimate, you know, kind of arbiter of what's true or not. Would you guys agree with that?
Chloe Carson:Yeah, yeah, because it's my faith, so I get to choose Right which is a post-modern idea. Whether, again, whether people know post-modernism or not, they've absorbed it.
Scott Allen:Yes, go ahead, Chloe.
Chloe Carson:It's like blind post-modernism most.
Scott Allen:Or, some of the time, blind post-modernism is a great one.
Chloe Carson:They wouldn't self-proclaim themselves as post-modernist, but that's what they're reflecting in.
Scott Allen:But they've absorbed those ideas exactly and they're reflecting that. That's just really great.
Luke Allen:Yeah, that word's so esoteric in a way, Not many people understand it. But we could just say, like the Disney worldview follow your heart, you know. And therefore, if you follow your heart when it comes to Christianity, then it's just a buffet of picking and choosing the parts you like and the parts that you don't like.
Scott Allen:But the key idea is you're the one doing it, You're at the center, you are in the seat of authority. Yeah, that's right and that's unhealthy, unbiblical right. It's just again, it's a presupposition. You're not God.
Chloe Carson:The heart is for the law things.
Scott Allen:Yeah, exactly, but you're setting yourself up as God, right. And then you did a nice job too, I think, of saying but there's a way of questioning our beliefs. That's not unhealthy, that's important actually. Let's talk about that. You were saying maybe we shouldn't call it deconstruction. I agree with that, and it goes back long before you know you need to stick discussion on deconstructing faith. I mean, this isn't new. Let's talk about that, because I think it's really important to draw that distinction. You know, what does it look like when it's done in a healthy way?
Chloe Carson:I think it has a lot to do with leadership. If you're allowed, under your leadership, to help to lead, doubt your faith and you're led in that with discernment, with scripture, with prayer, with counsel, with wisdom. But if you're just doubting your faith and you're under poor leadership, you're probably gonna be led.
Scott Allen:Yeah, and I think getting to Chloe, those are all really good thoughts. I think getting to the question of okay, let's, you know it's first of all, it's it's asking questions, is great. We should be asking questions. God's given us an inquisitive mind and, furthermore, truth exists and we have to kind of discover it in the quest, or the discovery of truth is so important, you know. So, I think, a lot of times, especially for Christians that have grown up in legalistic backgrounds where they've been kind of told in different ways you know it's don't ask questions, just believe just this is true, don't ask questions about it. Then you know that's such an unhealthy environment. We should be able, we should say no, you can ask questions. God's not afraid of your questions, you know. But here's the thing are you it gets to that presupposition are you searching for the truth or are you trying to just have your own personal beliefs validated? In other words, are you claiming to be God or are you searching for the you know truth? That's out there anyways.
Dwight Vogt:Or I'm thinking of the who or why. Now I'm kind of getting those two questions confused in my mind. But I'm just wondering what? Because I know a couple of people that have come out of kind of name it and claim it backgrounds prosperity gospel and their whole upbringing was yeah, memorize scripture, memorize all the positive verses, the ones that won't let you down, and then don't show any sign of questioning, because that's not faith. And it's almost reinforced.
Dwight Vogt:You don't question anything because you will now lose. You'll lose something in the end, because faith is the key.
Scott Allen:And faith is the key. Faith is the key. Yeah, right.
Dwight Vogt:And so to grow up in that atmosphere, you never have a question, you never ask a question, and then all once you go to college and all you face is questions. Yeah boom, everything falls apart. Yeah.
Scott Allen:No, I think that there's different ways into that kind of don't question your faith kind of unhealthy Christian environment and and that's probably one I, you know, I think I know Daryl, if he were on, he would talk about kind of, if you grew up in a kind of more fundamentalist Orthodox kind of home, you can be kind of taught that same thing. You know, don't ask questions. Francis Schaefer was, you know, very fond of saying you know there's, you know, yeah, there's no such thing as as bad questions and God's not afraid of our questions, you know, and if your questions are honestly asked and you're seeking the truth, that's really important. It's important for people to go through that process of saying gosh, I'm not sure, is it really true? Did this really happen? That is the Berean kind of approach.
Scott Allen:Right, they went to the scriptures to see if what Paul was saying was true. But that was their basis, right, their basis was the truth. Was the God's word, is it really true? Can I find it in the Bible? And then, of course, even that presupposition is the Bible true, right, can I? Is it truly God's word? Is it inerrant? You know, that's got to be. You've got to ask those questions to get at the bottom of that so that you can say so, I guess. For me, I think, a healthy search for the truth is one that's asking questions like that Is it true, is it really true, whereas a deconstructive one that's unhealthy is would be?
Luke Allen:you know more does it affirm what I believe right?
Scott Allen:Does it affirm what I believe, or something like that? Yeah.
Luke Allen:Yeah, the way a lot of people phrase that is it toxic or not? You know they look at the Bible through that lens. This is toxic theology. This is not toxic theology.
Luke Allen:And what they really mean is this part I don't like and this part I do like. That whole word as well I kind of want to throw out. When it comes to theology, let's just talk about is it true theology or is it false theology? They're more, they're more objective. You know the toxic, so it's so subjective, and yet you hear that all the time in these deconstruction stories.
Scott Allen:Well, give me an example of what a toxic theology is for somebody, luke, who has done.
Luke Allen:I think a lot of people would read Ephesians 5 and say there's a lot of toxic theology about marriage in this passage.
Scott Allen:Oh, okay, interesting. So what would be an example?
Luke Allen:Yeah, why I should submit to their husbands Toxic. Very toxic.
Scott Allen:Yeah, okay, I would say that and by the way, just on that, that gets to my point of postmodernism, right? So you're making, in other words, this isn't true, there's no such thing as male headship or male authority. You know that's, somebody is kind of weaponized and gained that to put themselves in power over a minority who's being oppressed women, right? I mean that's the grid that they're seeing the world through again, you know. So if that makes it toxic, it's somehow gained to gain power right at the expense of somebody else, right? So that's toxic, it's got to be deconstructed. That whole power thing needs to. I always think it needs to kind of come into play, especially in their issues of marriage, sexuality, right? Because, yeah, anyways. So much of this is yeah, it's, it's that's not true, that's. That's just you making a truth claim to oppress people that don't agree with your position or that keeps you in a position of power, hey guys thanks again for joining us today.
Luke Allen:I just want to take a quick minute to direct your attention to our core training here at the Disciple Nations Alliance, which is the Kingdomizer Training Program On the topic of deconstruction of faith.
Luke Allen:I know for myself I've had moments in my life where I've experienced a lot of doubt about the Bible, and one thing that's really helped me during these times is an understanding of how absolutely relevant and pertinent the Bible is for every single area of my life. This understanding of seeing all of life through the lens of the Bible is what is often called a having a biblical worldview. Unfortunately, when you become a Christian, you don't just automatically start seeing every part of life this way, so it's important to be discipled in forming this worldview or, in the words of Paul, to be transformed in the renewing of your mind. And this is where I would highly recommend the Kingdomizer Training Program, as it is the best biblical worldview training course that I have come across and yes, I'm biased, but it really helped shape my worldview, so I have no shame in plugging it. If you'd like to learn more about the Kingdomizer Training Program, just head to the episode page which is linked in the show notes, or you can look it up at Corumdalecom.
Scott Allen:Let's continue on, guys. We're talking about what? What is this? And we're making some distinctions about deconstructing deconstruction of faith that puts you in a position of authority over the scriptures, and versus kind of a healthy questioning of faith that isn't, you know, isn't afraid to ask hard questions in an honest searching for the truth.
Scott Allen:Again, francis Schaefer did this in his own life. You know he had he grew up in a Christian home got to a point in his own Christian, in his Christian journey, where he had doubts. You know, do I really believe this or is this just something that I've got from my parents? And he went through a process of just kind of questioning, you know, these beliefs that had been handed down to him and had to look at them very carefully and honestly. Honestly in the sense that if I find that after I've gone through a process of hard questioning and logical reasoning and looking at this, I'm willing to. If it's not true, I'm willing to walk away from my faith. I mean, that was he wrote about this in one of his famous books called True Spirituality and that's what you know came out of that questioning, so that he was able to say, no, this is true, I've and I'm not just saying that because you know, this is what somebody told me, but because I've really looked into it, I've really examined these questions and I and then he wrote about that in that book. So that's, I think, again, very healthy and very important.
Scott Allen:I was reminded, you know, when I was thinking along these lines, of this famous quote that we love in the DNA, from JI Packer, and he wrote fundamentalism in the Word of God, way back in 1965, he wrote the evangelical is not afraid of facts, for he knows that all facts are God's facts, and he's not afraid of thinking, for he knows that all truth is God's truth, and that right reason cannot endanger sound faith. He's called to love God with all his mind, and part of what that means is that, when confronted with those who, on professional, professedly rational grounds, take exception with historic Christianity, he must set himself not merely to denounce or deplore or denounce them, but to outthink them. It's not his business to argue men into faith. That cannot be done.
Scott Allen:It is his business to demonstrate the intellectual adequacy or the truthfulness of biblical faith and the comparative inadequacy of his rivals. And he goes and he does that, he goes on and he says you know he seeks to do this not from any kind of motive of intellectual self justification, but for the glory of God in the gospel, you know, to show that this is so, this here he's speaking again of this kind of yeah, we're not afraid. No, go ahead, ask hard questions. You know that's we're not afraid of truth or facts. You know, at the end of the day, you know we believe that this is true and it's you know it can stand up to the hardest questions that you have.
Luke Allen:That's great. Wow, I'm over here as the producer and I have that ability to do the, you know audience collapse in the background thing. I was really tempted to push that right after that quote dad. Applause to Jay Hapaker.
Luke Allen:I think that's the key here is is your deconstruction ultimately directed towards finding the truth? Do you think that there is a truth as a destination, or or is it not directed towards the truth? From what I've seen, it seems like a lot of times there is no. There is no truth at the end of the tunnel and unfortunately, it's really sad to see, because if you, if you just tear things apart without eventually hoping to hit the truth you know Francis Schaefer talks about this it's like a free fall, it's you're just going to end up in chaos.
Luke Allen:You lose all order. And I mean there's a quote by Daniel Webster. He says falseness not only disagrees with truth, but usually it corals amongst themselves. It just it's so chaotic and it's. It's really sad to see people go through that.
Scott Allen:Yeah, yeah, you have to wrestle with this big question of truth first, do you believe in objective truth? And we've talked a lot about that, you know here on our podcast.
Scott Allen:Does objective truth exist? And yeah, you know it does. And everyone kind of knows that, at the end of the day, if somebody accuses you of raping or murdering somebody and it's false, you care about objective truth. Truth at that point isn't just what you believe or what I believe, it's what actually happened, right, or what actually exists. And we all know this. But you have to. I mean, we know this, although postmodernism throws a whole bunch of sand in the wind and clouds all this in our minds. But but you have to kind of wrestle with that basic presupposition first. You know, does truth exist and what is it? Then you know that quest for truth becomes very important. But if it's, if it's just, hey, I'm going to kind of sit in judgment over what I think our toxic Christian beliefs, because they, you know, they don't affirm what I think is true, based on popular cultural trends or whatever it is. That's a different thing. Yeah.
Dwight Vogt:I also think that I mean, I'm listening to you, scott, and I'm going. Well, I could argue with that.
Dwight Vogt:You know, I could push back on that and I'm thinking how would, how would somebody listening to you say well, here's where you're wrong? And I'm thinking objective truth. There are many people who believe objectively that miracles don't happen, that there is no such thing in the material universe as a miracle, and they would argue that that's objective and that rules out a lot of the Bible text because there's the and the. The epics of it is the resurrection, you know yes.
Dwight Vogt:And and so, throughout the, throughout the ages, people have tried to erase the miracles from the Bible. And you do that and you basically erase the Bible because it's so, built on so many things like that God has done.
Dwight Vogt:But I was listening, you know, you know I'm a discovery Institute fan and I was listening to another podcast by them the other day and talking about creation and some part of it, of creation and creatures, and just the fact is that that the miracle of creation is a miracle and if you study it long enough, you know there's the eye, the ear, all of the complex systems that go into the cells and how they're formed. It's a miracle that it ever happened. And and this guy was arguing, if you can, if you can believe creation, creation is a miracle and if that's the case, then any miracle is possible. If God created the universe, he can raise his son from the dead. If he creates life in the beginning, he can create life after the fact, you know. So I mean, there is objective truth, but it has to go one level deeper.
Scott Allen:Well, I bit, but again I think to ask the question do miracles happen? And, by the way, when you have to define miracle in this context, is something that kind of exists outside of material cause and effect? You?
Scott Allen:know, right, you can ask that question, you should ask that question, you should examine that really carefully and there's evidence to be looked at. You know, right, that's good. Right, that's what, that's what I'm saying. That would be healthy and good, you know. You know, do we live I mean another way of saying the question is do we live in a purely material world where there isn't anything except material cause and effect? You know, matter interacting with matter, and that explains everything. Right, that needs to be answered and asked those, and you have to look deeply at that question, you know so yeah, which is why you can't argue someone into faith.
Chloe Carson:That's an upside down kingdom. Our war is not according to the flesh. Like there's a mysterious God's kingdom aspect to it that isn't visible. Yes, that's absolutely right.
Scott Allen:Let's move on, guys, can we to? We've talked a little bit about what this is and we've kind of contrasted deconstruction with kind of healthy questioning of faith. One is good, you know. It needs to be kind of nurtured and encouraged. People do need to kind of own their faith and they need to have a sense of confidence that I really believe in this.
Scott Allen:I've examined it, I've looked at it, you know, and and it's not that I've landed on it I know the truth. It's kind of this ongoing quest to kind of know more and more right of, you know, come further up and further in, as CS Lewis says in the last battle in the Chronicles of Narnia. But but that's good, yeah, that, come further up and further in, keep searching it out, keep seeking it. That's, that's a, by the way, a positive, a constructive thing to do, whereas this other one is, yeah, it's deconstruction and it's looking at Christian beliefs that I think are toxic. Typically they have to do, luke, as you said, with issues of, you know, patriarchy, marriage, family, sex and, you know, because they go against, or race maybe, I don't know they go against whatever the kind of current cultural mores are, and I'm going to jettison those, those ideas, but I and I'm at the center why are people doing it?
Scott Allen:That's the next question, I guess. Maybe just quickly touch on who we've already talked a little bit about that. We've got some celebrities, some big name pastors. It's quite a movement amongst younger people. Any other? Just thoughts from especially Chloe and Luke, because I think it's largely kind of a Gen Z, millennial kind of demographic, with any thoughts from you on this?
Luke Allen:two things I've noticed is it's really it's. It's pretty sad, but a lot of people that Are going through the deconstruction process seem to have a lot of trauma in their background that a lot of times could have been caused by. You know, christians, people who claim to be Christians, by church leaders, by their church. You know church hurt and you know they can't, they can't Understand how that can, you know, be all related to a loving God and it's just, it's a really sad backstory in a lot of these cases, which is it's so hard to hear, but it's, it's a reality of a lot of people. I think that's a big, a big factor in it.
Luke Allen:But then I would also say, as you were just kind of alluding to dad, is it's a Motivated by fear of man, also for some other people, over fear of God. So a lot of times the hot culture, war type topics get mixed up in people's theology and you know, in order to keep your friends or to stay on the right side of history, quote-unquote you want to, you know, be pro-choice or you want to be pro sexual license or whatever it is, you choose the topic and that motivates a lot of people to yeah, you're jumping ahead to why, but that's okay.
Luke Allen:We can talk about who and why, I guess I am kind of blend together a little bit, but yeah. Well, yeah, I'd say that's it. That's a broad group of people that are in the deconstruction process. Are people that?
Tim Williams:it feels a bit like a social contagion, right, you know I mean just it catches on and a lot of people aren't Strong and they're thinking about it. They haven't done the the hard work to know how to respond and they, they don't want to stand out Against others, against the, their peers, who are fueled by people who are Putting forward a different agenda, and they're they're putting it forward with persuasion, persuasion and clarity.
Luke Allen:Yeah, and to put some numbers to this I was just looking into it I think most of us know that. You know, a lot of young people that grew up in the church tend to leave the church in their late high school, early 20s. About two-thirds is what most people have agreed upon, which is sad, but it makes sense because that's when really the the social pressures really kick in. There was a survey that recently came out by the Public Religion Research Institute, pri, and it says that nearly 30% I think it's 28% of Gen Z adults identify as LGBTQ, according to a new report. So that's my generation 30%. I wouldn't have guessed that, but if that's true, then it's all around us and that pressure you know, these are our friends, these are our family that pressure to not be titled or, you know, yeah, titled hateful, bigoted, homophobic, transphobic, all those phobics, is a real. It's a real pressure. Yes.
Luke Allen:And a lot of times we want to really lean on the nice side of the Bible you know the nice, the tolerant Jesus, the loving Jesus and make that our theology and Pick a parts, the part that Disagree with that, romans one, or something like that.
Scott Allen:Yeah, no, I think that's exactly right, luke. I think that's driving a lot of this is that you know the sexual revolution has led to a lot of people being really sexually confused and messed up. And then they come headlong into you know biblical sexual morality. And then what do you do with that? You know that doesn't Feel loving, I don't feel accepted, or or my friends who are that way, you know it seems very hateful and unloving to them. And then you can kind of begin to say, well, can't we just say we've moved beyond that right, that Christianity that's kind of an old Christian belief, that we've kind of moved beyond and and you know that's a toxic idea.
Scott Allen:So I think that's, I agree that that seems to be driving a Lot of this right now. Tim, you use that phrase social contagion and I think that's another thing that's probably worth exploring a little bit, that, because even that kind of idea of social contagion is kind of a new concept and I Haven't looked into it. You hear a lot of the transgender movement. You know it's, you know explosion of young, particularly women, you know, or transitioning, what, what's going on with that, and people call that a social contagion and a lot of that's being driven, it seems to me, anyways, by the whole new phenomenon of social media, which, again, is it's only been a blink of an eye since that's been around and I think we none of us have really Fully reckoned with the power of these. You know Technologies and the way that they shape, the way we think, but it seems to me driving quite a bit of this.
Luke Allen:Yeah, and.
Scott Allen:I I think, another thing I would like to put on the table and I'd like to hear thoughts on this. But it's as I look at the social media, especially tick-tock some of these platforms, it's not like it's just this free, open platform and people are just sharing kind of whatever they want to share in this unmediated way. It seems like there's powerful forces and I don't mean to sound like a conspiracy theorist, I just think it's true there's powerful forces that are kind of shaping and manipulating people to kind of think in a particular way, using these platforms, and I do think that's Playing a factor in this whole thing of Christian deconstructionism as well. Right, there's some people out there that want young people to be deconstructing their faith and they're influencing that Using these powerful tools and platforms. Thoughts on that, guys?
Luke Allen:Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, because I would say, to the next point, we're gonna talk about why this is happening right now. I think people, as you've said earlier dead in the podcast have always deconstructed.
Luke Allen:In a way you know, let's just say questioned yeah, ask hard questions yeah they wouldn't use that term, but asked hard questions and you know, straight back to the garden. Did God really say the serpent says to Eve? That's something that humans have always been doing, but recently, the last 10, 15 years, social media has Created a world in which every single person that's deconstructing has the opportunity to hop behind a camera or the keyboard and explain their whole story to millions of people. And that spread of Ideas and that spread of you know, these leaders of deconstruction has has, has made it a phenomenon. I would say that's primarily pushed through Social media because of the reach that you can have. Even if you were, even if your beliefs are really Ungrounded and unmoored in reality, yeah, you can still reach a lot of people.
Chloe Carson:And I think it's not an accident that you can reach more people than someone who's Truth can reach.
Scott Allen:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's that aspect. I think that plays a role in all of this. That shouldn't, you know, go unmentioned here. But let's continue to talk about you know why is this happening. So social media certainly plays a role. It seems like a social contagion. Again, tim, to use your your term there. Why is this happening? I'd love to hear more of you guys's thoughts on on that.
Dwight Vogt:Well, we've already touched on this, but just the the power of postmodern culture is yes is influencing it. We've mentioned it several times super power we breathe.
Scott Allen:Now it's, it really is the dominant, you know the dominant worldview in many ways.
Luke Allen:Exactly.
Scott Allen:You know mm-hmm yeah yeah, sorry, chloe.
Chloe Carson:Oh, no, no, go ahead.
Luke Allen:Oh I just a couple phrases that popped to mind, with how dominant postmodernism is these days. Is, you know, be true to your authentic self, love yourself. The purpose of life is happiness. All these things are very very inwardly. You do, you. We all know these terms, these phrases. This is just postmodernism lived out in popular, popular culture, postmodernism, exactly.
Scott Allen:Yeah, chloe, go ahead, you're gonna come I was.
Chloe Carson:I've just been thinking this whole entire time that I think a large, underlying, like almost, I want to say obvious, but a large, underlying, obvious cause of the why is the the nuclear family? And, like the people who are leading this deconstruction, the younger people they were Possibly such, probably not raised in a strong, healthy Question, open, open to question, cataclyzed, strong, loving, respectful, father-led family church. Going like that has a huge impact on how your kids are raised, impacts how they go out into the world and what they accept as truth and yeah, I think that's a really excellent point.
Scott Allen:I think the breakdown of family and people are really hurting. You know it's. I don't want to look down my nose at these young people that are struggling because a lot of them are carrying a lot of pain and hurt, like you say, from a lot of places, including broken families. That's just true. Broken, you know just completely broken, sexual. You know Reality that they're living in. I mean, you know it's. I call it a sexual wasteland that our young people are being raised in right now In the wake of the sexual revolution. You know, you go ahead, yeah.
Chloe Carson:Just especially for Christian Parents to be raising kids like your home should be a safe place away from the world that is going to be telling them these sexual lies and these Lies about God and these lies about the church. Like you should know that your kids are gonna leave your house and hear lies. They should be hearing enough truth at home to be able to defend those lies and Feel like they can.
Scott Allen:They can raise the hard questions at home.
Chloe Carson:Yes, yeah.
Scott Allen:And and and a church Tim you brought this up earlier that you know a lot of people are wounded at church, you know they've been hurt, you know, through Churches that have been hateful or they've been I don't know what. You know, the different people have different stories, so that you know there is some real Issues and pain and hardship that you know. We do want to be kind of careful not to just dismiss this as, like all these yeah, crazy people or leadership in the home and poor leadership. I've got a verse I'd like to share.
Tim Williams:This is just kind of that in the context, as we talk about leadership and good leaders and something that Chloe said before the call.
Tim Williams:So I'll give you the credit for this. But you know, in our Postmodern reality with young people, a lot of times we attempt to make up truth based off of our own very short-sighted experiences, unattached to any Historical truth, historical tried and true reality from the faithful, from the saints throughout history. And I've just always found this verse in Hebrews 13 7 to be really significant about leadership. It says Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you, consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. So it just continues on from there. But, um, you know, leadership so important and it's really important. I like to remind, especially as I work with students and youth ministry, you know like, don't look at your peers because you can't consider the outcome of their way of life yet, because they're still walking through it, but look for people who have the kind of life that you want to target that outcome and you need to Remember them.
Tim Williams:They're, they're the ones and consider, consider what they've spoken to you.
Chloe Carson:So and I've had yeah, go ahead, chloe. Oh, you reminded me of Psalm one right now, like the tree planted by streams of water. You can look at that tree and the years of roots, because it is planted by streams of water it is. It is in the council of you met a tight song, his law. Day and night he delights in the law of the Lord and that's why he's a tree planted firmly by streams of water and not like chaff blowing in the wind.
Scott Allen:You would just remind me of that by saying that I Think you know, for me, guys, when I think of the why, why is this happening right now? I think a couple of things I put on the table that we haven't really mentioned. One is that Aaron Rens negative world concept. We really are moving into this. You know it's.
Scott Allen:It's negative world is a world where being a Christian and saying, hey, I'm a Christian, being outspoken about that is viewed negatively within the larger culture. Why, well, you're viewed as being hateful on issues of sexuality, lgbtq. You're hateful, your phobic, your racist, you know, and so Christianity is kind of lumped in with a lot of of Slavery racism. You know, you increasingly see even Christian writers writing books about how Christians in yesteryear were behind slavery, and you know so. And then, of course, the whole political angle right there's. You know, if you're an evangelical, you're a Trump supporter, you're a deplorable, you know. And so that's negative world.
Scott Allen:And so the reaction to that, especially on young people who were sensitive to that stereotype, you know, is I'm not like that, right, I'm not like that. You know, if that's what they believe, then I don't believe that. You know it's. It's kind of that type of of you know, in some ways understandable reaction to a Really negative stereotype. But here's the deal. I mean, the stereotype is largely in my views, largely it's, it's, it's a creation, right it's, you know, it's, it's not real, but they accept it as if it's true and you know, and then I'm not like that.
Luke Allen:Go ahead, luke, yeah well, we were talking about this yesterday is what do people think evangelical means nowadays? And I think there's a tonic infusion there and a lot of stereotypes and a lot of people think guns God and Trump. Trump is an evangelical. Therefore we invented the hashtag X evangelical Hashtag, where a lot of people are pushing against that, and I think I'm basically saying I'm not that stereotype.
Scott Allen:Yeah you know, and I think the question is like is that's how? Anyways, who created that stereotype? Is that, is that accurately describing Christians? That you know?
Luke Allen:I don't think it's describing many, but I think it is describing some. So it's not totally unfounded and you have to, I think. Sometimes I would say the church has gotten too mixed up in politics, to the point where it's becoming more about the people versus the Bible, and you know, therefore, we see this reaction, so you can't totally disclaim it. But even so, it doesn't mean you should walk away from the faith over a few people who have you know, gone astray. That's always something we need to be careful of.
Scott Allen:So there's that. The negative world I think is is part of what's going on here, you know, and just young people trying to kind of navigate in that Chloe and Luke, you guys both went to Christian universities and you said it was kind of cool, even in Christian universities to do this. Young people, you know, are deconstructing their faith. Why was it cool, chloe? I don't know if you would agree with that or not, but it seemed like yeah.
Scott Allen:It was kind of the cool, the cool thing to do. What, what? I was kind of puzzled and Luke said they'll be cool. What made it cool? I don't know.
Chloe Carson:I couldn't tell you I'm not cool I wasn't cool, so I don't know what made it cool.
Scott Allen:I'm asking a person here.
Chloe Carson:It was a friend.
Scott Allen:I say you are cool. I.
Chloe Carson:Wasn't cool enough to deconstruct. I don't know, like a 10 said it, it was like a contagion, like it was. Like we're all in a Christian university, we're all learning. It's trendy to be a Christian, but let's, let's rethink what that means. And it seemed to me like let's try to look more like the world and make our faith look more like secularism, to be seen as acceptable by people that are influential in the culture.
Scott Allen:Let's say right, yeah yeah, that's just. We're all prone to that, aren't we right? So, yeah, but listen, you know it's hard, and it's hard to be counter-cultural and to be a Christian right now, to be a faithful, genuine Christian, is to be counter. You have to be counter-culture. It's not easy, it's not easy so. So in that sense, I it's understandable, it's not right. Yes, it's Understandable, because it's always hard to be counter-cultural.
Chloe Carson:Yeah, other thoughts I think it's like a dissat, like Dwight, I think, was saying like you get to the college age and and understandably, you do want to discover more things that are outside of what you heard your whole life and it is that like discovery age and it's like a dissatisfaction with Jesus.
Chloe Carson:Christ is God and that still is true and even though it's boring that I grew up hearing that every day and like testimony is boring and it's just boring like yeah, I'm a Christian and I go to church every Sunday and I am a girl and I'm supposed to marry a guy and there is one God and I'm still saying that, even though the world is saying that that's boring, but it's like a dissatisfaction with just only the same thing over that doesn't make you cool.
Scott Allen:Now I kind of get it, chloe. Thank you, right that doesn't make you cool, but, if I can say hello, I'm really challenging and questioning all these things. I, you know, was taught to believe growing up yeah, no, now you're kind, of, now you're more interesting now we're talking
Luke Allen:now we're talking, yeah, I kind of big words like heteronormative and you know quote these French philosophers with fancy names like Derrida, and you definitely sound fancy and very well educated when you can come back and tell your parents all those big words mm-hmm yeah and there's a piece of which, again, there's a piece of which we should do.
Chloe Carson:So it's encouraged, but there's that, that fine line between being open-minded and being too open-minded yeah, I also saw a massive divide in my experience of like there was two sides of this. Like on fire Christian, you were either on fire for theology and intellectual thought of deepening your knowledge of the person of God, and you were conservative and you were reformed and you were strict and legalistic and I know it all. And then there was the other side of you were a deconstructionist. You accepted all things that you ever heard you. Jesus is kind, jesus accepts everything, jesus is tolerable, and I know you shouldn't care that much about theology because you're just being like too harsh, like the only doesn't matter that much. All you need to know is that Jesus forgives. And those were the two sides and those were your only two options. It seemed like and obviously that's not the reality of Christianity, but that was the two trends that I mainly saw in the Christian university were those two things.
Chloe Carson:And so if you fell on the side of conservative theology, nerd, you were God Guns Trump, and you were, and you were hateful the other side would say you know, god is love, he's forgiving he's accepting.
Scott Allen:It's all about God is accepting and if, if it's not accepting, if it's not, it's not accepting what I think or do, it's not loving yeah, and they're saying on both sides it's not right there's definitely some on both sides, but those are. Yeah, no, I think you're, you're kind of yeah, you're right to say it's not good guys, bad guys here. In some way there's with these two groups that you're painting right.
Chloe Carson:There's some problems on both sides, right yeah, yeah, because you can know all the theology, but without love it's nothing yeah, and you can have all the love, but without theology, that's also nothing that's really helpful.
Scott Allen:Yeah, that's really helpful.
Tim Williams:Scott, you've asked kind of you know why is this happening and this time and this season in this way, and a couple of thoughts that I have, is like we talk about the sacred, secular divide that many Christians have embraced in this period and in that being, you know that I have this kind of private spirituality I'm saved for heaven. That's the spiritual side, that's the sacred side, and then and then there's this rest of reality, the rest of reality which is secular and and my faith does not influence that at all, and so it's left this whole generation uninformed.
Tim Williams:Yes, about how our faith integrates into every single area of our life.
Scott Allen:So I think that's one thing, absolutely.
Scott Allen:And, by the way, that, you know, people always say, scott, you said that postmodernism, this atheistic kind of philosophy or ideologies dominant in the United States, this Christian country. How did that happen? Well, it happened because of what you're describing, tim, the sacred secular divide, where Christians at some point you know, a hundred plus years ago said faith is personal, you know, and it only deals with spiritual issues and doesn't deal with issues of politics, culture, business, whatever it is. Then you turn all of that over to other people to define and they are just very happy to do that which they've done in postmodern ways. Well then, guess what your kids grew up in a postmodern culture, right, so they're gonna deconstruct their faith. It's great point, yeah yeah.
Tim Williams:I think I think another thing too. Just, you know, looking at our own culture, as secularism and materialism has taken root, it has very, you know, subtly taken root of people who are also dedicated believers, in the sense that where the Christian faith is, is intended to be very hospitable and very outgoing, and, you know, inviting people to the table and engaging in these intellectual conversations, and generous.
Tim Williams:We're isolated, we you know, open our garages, we drive in, we sit in our homes, we watch our TVs, we go about our business. How, how are we, you know, influencing the world in these, you know, substantial ways without being more hospitable? It's a challenge to myself?
Scott Allen:you know not. Yeah, so back to Chloe's two groups. I think you know it's a challenge. I think the challenge is let's be open, hospitable, kind, generous, humble, and yet let's hold on to the truth and be willing to fight for it and, you know, hang on to what is true and good and beautiful and be willing to kind of put down our flag for that and defend that publicly. I think we've got to do both of those things, don't we here, you know?
Chloe Carson:that's a line that we're always going to be trying to learn how to walk right to love as much as God loves and also hates in as much as God hates in yes, that's right.
Scott Allen:And to understand love I'm writing on that right now love biblically, which isn't just affirming and accepting everything, right, that's. That's not a biblical understanding of love. Love, you know, apostle Paul talks about this in his famous passage and you know, first Corinthians, you know you know love what is?
Scott Allen:you know, love, what is hate, what is evil? Love what is good. You know love, you know it stands on the side of truth. Right, there is truth and there are lies. So let's get on to guys.
Scott Allen:We this has been a really helpful discussion. We've kind of covered what is this idea of deconstructing faith, kind of who's, who's being affected by it, who's leading it. Why is it happening? We've talked a good bit about that and I think there's some understandable reasons and we should be sensitive to those reasons. And then there's some that you know or maybe not rooted in. You know the fear, cowardice or whatever it is. But you know we've talked a good bit about that. I want to just end by moving on to the how, how do we respond to people that we know? Let's say, some of our listeners have have children that are in the process of deconstructing their faith. They've let let you know that I'm going to go through this journey of deconstructing my faith, maybe in your church, your friends. How do you respond? Thoughts on that, what are your, what are your points of wisdom for for people that are in that position? Because this is real and it's really not easy. This is very difficult, yeah.
Luke Allen:I don't know if I have much wisdom, but it's, it's really hard that's a really really hard question and I have friends I've gone through this and I really I don't know what to say most of the time but, I love what Tim, you were just saying is that as Christians, we need to be known through the beauty and the goodness that God represents and that hospit, hospitality and that looking out for the needs of your neighbor.
Luke Allen:And you know a Darrow, if he was on the call today. He often says the beautiful illuminates the truth and glorifies the good, or I've heard other people say beauty is the gateway to goodness and truth, and too often I think we can lead with truth. Here's a Bible verse for you you know, let's sit down and let's figure this out.
Luke Allen:Here's all the reasons you're wrong. Logic, logic, logic, facts, yeah, um, let's lead with the beauty that, um, god, god shows us and the graciousness that God shows us, and then, from that point, you can lead into it, lead into the truth, um but, I, would say actually before it. Before you even do that, I think the first thing you want to do is just say what do you mean by deconstruction?
Luke Allen:because I think sometimes the kid is going to say oh, I'm just questioning my faith, you don't need to freak out. You know good, healthy questioning, fine, I'm glad you're doing that. Maybe let's use a different word or you can figure out how can I support you in that?
Tim Williams:what questions are you having? Can I engage you with those questions and, um you know, help you find some resources that might help you? I think I think one of the important questions and answers with this for someone going through this process is it goes back to this question of okay, is there truth?
Tim Williams:yes and I think that is an essential question for someone going through deconstruction. If there is truth, that's, that's really good, you know, if and if they don't know how to answer, that you know. And then what are you right? I just want to, I want to underscore that, tim.
Scott Allen:I think that that is the question that has to be asked at the very beginning. Can we just talk about is there a truth that exists beyond what you think it is, and can we talk about that? Can we, can we try to come to some agreement on that? You know, because everything's going to flow from the answer to that question. You know, yeah, yeah. So kind of starting and wrestling at that point of truth, you know um is important, because I think a lot of people don't don't have that discussion. They just kind of assume one way or another on that, you know um, and then go from there.
Scott Allen:You know yeah but that needs to be kind of uncovered and discussed before anything else productive is going to happen here. Go ahead, tim. Yeah.
Luke Allen:Luke okay yeah, I just I don't know. I have a little bit of a hard time with that, because I think that's what they're expecting you to say is let's talk about truth right away.
Luke Allen:When I think a lot of times, like I was saying before, these are it's, it's really emotionally charged reaction to hurt and trauma and it's, it's not always a rejection of truth, as much as it's a pain reaction and, as I think many of us know, when someone is going through emotional trauma or harm, responding with truth and logic isn't always going to bring about the right well, you're bringing up an excellent point, luke, and that is we've talked about a variety of reasons why people are doing this, and what I hear you saying is in terms of how we respond.
Scott Allen:I think a good way to start is to start trying to dig at why. Why are they right?
Scott Allen:you know, try to understand that story because your your response needs to be based on what's causing it in their part, and there's different reasons for it, right? So I think that's a really good point. You know, if, if, yeah, before you start kind of talking, just try to understand what's motivating it. You know what, which? You know? We talked about a variety of reasons. You know some people, some of them are. Yeah, I just have some really legitimate questions about whether I believe this or not, you know that's that's.
Scott Allen:That's different, you know, or I've had this really painful experience, you know, in the church or whatever it is at home. So you're gonna have different responses depending on those. Why things right. That's, that's what I hear you saying, luke. I also I I. I.
Dwight Vogt:You mentioned Darrow recently and I think of Darrow and Darrow is very, very clear when he's writing. He's very, very clear when he's on a podcast. But it's interesting if you ever see Darrow one-on-one with people, he invariably starts with questions.
Dwight Vogt:And then he listens and he listens and he listens and you go. Is that the Darrow Miller I know on TV? You know Because here he is. He's literally listening intently to figure out where this person is at and what they're trying to say. And I think that comes from his librae experience, where Francis Shakespeare says you come in and express your thoughts. You can say what you want here and we will listen and there's no bad questions.
Scott Allen:nothing else. There's no bad questions we will listen.
Dwight Vogt:That doesn't mean I'm sacrificing my own convictions, my own understanding of the truth. That's good, but you set a framework that we will, and I think people want to be heard. That's like ground zero one. It doesn't mean you agree with them, but they want to be heard and that's a good starting point.
Scott Allen:And it's important to say to people yeah, those are good questions and we're not afraid of questions here and that's so healthy and so, yeah, I agree. So much, Dwight.
Luke Allen:And.
Scott Allen:Darrow does model that he just asks questions of people and he tries to understand where are they coming from, and then you can move from there. But I do think I'm still gonna defend what I said. I think you have to get at this question of truth Somehow. That has to come out, cause either you're at the center or it exists outside of you regardless of your beliefs, and that has to kind of like. You've got to get some kind of grounding at that point, or else you're never gonna be able to have any kind of fruitful discussion, I think. Yeah.
Chloe Carson:I think he's pretend to finish his thought for a while ago.
Tim Williams:Yeah, I mean mainly it was about truth. I think that was really the bedrock. I mean, if anything I would have just reiterated also like encouraging people to reflect on what leaders they know and who they wanna imitate the way the outcome of their way of life, and I think you know. Part of that also is a reminder and a call for us, as believers, to open our home so that people can see what our way of life actually looks like. Yeah.
Tim Williams:To see us beyond a surface level, to see us wrestling with the day to day and working it out and the joy and significance that we find in it.
Luke Allen:Yeah, yeah, modeling. That's so important because, unfortunately, a lot of people I'm thinking of people that transition in particular a lot of times they're one of the first things they're gonna do is reach out to each of their family members that they know or they think disagrees with them and they're gonna say I never wanna talk to you again. They're gonna send a no contact letter, they're gonna block them out of their lives, and that's just impossible to work with. Except, one of the things you can do is, well, one, pray, and then two is just keep modeling that God's way of life is one that leads to flourishing.
Luke Allen:It's one that leads to, you know, healthy families, healthy lifestyles, healthy nations, and God's framework for living is the one that actually works. You know, it doesn't lead to this chaos that a rejection of truth does. It's one that's grounded and is made for us. We're created for it.
Scott Allen:You know, I like to underscore things I'm hearing that I think are really important, and the word pray is so important here and this idea that we have to kind of argue people into the faith or argue them to our position. It's important to talk, to wrestle to. You know, I'm not saying anything other than that, but at the end of the day, the heart is deep, it's a deep well and it's the realm that only God can touch through the power of the Holy Spirit, and we have to just know that and then we have to just ask Him God, please, touch the heart of my son, daughter, friend, touch their heart, and we have to persevere in that because we love them Right? So I hear you saying that too, luke. That's really good.
Luke Allen:Yeah, I'm talking to myself here, because my gut reaction every time is speak the truth, pull out the Bible you know I think that's wrong, but yeah, so yeah, go ahead.
Chloe Carson:The heart posture of like. I want God's name to be glorified and I want God's kingdom to be built, and I want God's truth to be shared rather than I want them to know that.
Luke Allen:I'm right. I want them to know that.
Chloe Carson:I've known this all along. I want them to know that I didn't do like I'm right and they're wrong. Yes. That's just hard to do, but it's obviously the right way to do it.
Scott Allen:Yeah, yeah, really good thoughts guys. Those are just really, I think, very helpful thoughts in terms of how you respond to folks Any other. As we wrap up, any final thoughts on this important subject.
Tim Williams:I think the only thought I have left, and one that we've really already said, probably many times, if not in this episode and others it's just the words that we choose to use are very important because they have behind them, whether we intend for them to or not, the force of history and then add to it social levels of direction, so they are pushing in a direction, and so we just need to be really careful with the words that we choose to pull from culture and try and use them in our own way.
Scott Allen:Thanks for bringing that up. Be very cautious of this word post-monitor or deconstruction because you've got to ask where did it come from? That's always important. Where did this word come from? Is it a biblical word? If it's not, where did it come from in the culture? What did the people that coined the term mean by it? Those are all really important questions you have to ask before you just make that part of your lexicon kind of unthoughtfully.
Luke Allen:Ideas have consequences.
Chloe Carson:That's true, I think, also remembering that God is sovereign over the purity of his church and you or I, or us single-handedly, are not going to change or project the future of the church. It's fortunately not on our shoulders, so we can pray and do all we can, but ultimately we are his bride and he's in charge of sanctifying and purifying and unifying us. So we can rest at the end of this scary conversation and his sovereignty.
Scott Allen:Amen good thoughts and we can encourage our pastors. One more and pray for them. Yeah, sorry, pray for your pastors.
Dwight Vogt:No, I was just thinking of the pastors in my church and just to encourage them to say hey you did. That was great. You're right on. That's good, because they do have a voice that's much larger than ours when it comes to the community. And society in general.
Scott Allen:Yeah, great thoughts guys. It's an honor to work with such a brilliant, wise team and, anyways, thanks. You guys know, and thank you all as well for listening to another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the disciple nations.
Luke Allen:Thanks again for joining us today and we hope you'll be able to join us next week here on Ideas have Consequences for our episode with David Bonson, who is the author of no Free Lunch and the new book Full Time. He is also the founder, managing partner and chief investment officer of the Bonson Group, a national private wealth management firm. I'm sure it's gonna be a great episode, as we will discuss the biblical worldview of work and finance and that episode will be out next Tuesday here on Ideas have Consequences.
Luke Allen:If you've listened to this show for any amount of time, you'll know that Ideas have Consequences is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. As a nonprofit ministry, we are blessed to be able to provide our biblical worldview courses and this podcast to you entirely for free, thanks to our generous supporters. If this podcast has been a blessing to you, we would greatly appreciate it if you would subscribe on Apple Podcasts, spotify or wherever you're listening, and, as you are able, we would also hope that you would consider supporting this podcast with a donation. To donate, just visit DiscipleNationsorg and, from the homepage, just look for the blue button that says donate, or you can just follow the link in the show notes. And, for those of you who are new to the show, if you'd like to learn more about the Disciple Nations Alliance, you can find us on Instagram, facebook, youtube or on our website, which is DiscipleNationsorg. Thanks again for listening, guys, and have a great rest of your week. We'll see you in the next one.