For many people, singing “Joy to the World” is a Christmas tradition. However, familiarity with the song can cause us to miss its depth and significance. The song announces the Kingship of Jesus and calls on each individual to respond. We are to push back against the effects of the fall as far as the curse is found in our world. Christ actively rules with both truth and grace. His love is wondrous. Come celebrate with us the joy and hope of the Christmas season through the powerful lens of "Joy to the World."
For many people, singing “Joy to the World” is a Christmas tradition. However, familiarity with the song can cause us to miss its depth and significance. The song announces the Kingship of Jesus and calls on each individual to respond. We are to push back against the effects of the fall as far as the curse is found in our world. Christ actively rules with both truth and grace. His love is wondrous. Come celebrate with us the joy and hope of the Christmas season through the powerful lens of "Joy to the World."
We are to be active under His Lordship, under His kingship, to push back against the evil in the world, not to be passive, not to simply pray Lord, come back. No, he's not telling us to pray, lord, come back. He's telling us to no longer let sin and sorrow reign or thorns infest the ground. Please, this is our marching order.
Luke Allen:Hi friends, merry Christmas and welcome to. Ideas have Consequences. The podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. If you're new to the podcast, here on this show we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world to all the nations, but our mission also includes to be the hands and feet of God, to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the Church has largely neglected this second part of her mission and today most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.
Scott Allen:Well, welcome again to another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. I'm Scott Allen, I'm the president of the DNA and today I am joined by dear friends Tim Williams, dwight Voet, daryl Miller, luke Allen, and at this time of the Christmas season we are really excited about the discussion. Today we're going to be looking at one of our most beloved Christmas hymns Joy to the World. We're going to be looking at this in some detail because in the DNA, this is a hymn that we particularly love.
Scott Allen:We love all of these Christmas hymns, but this one in particular, because there's so many themes that come out of this hymn that are pertinent to the things that we emphasize in our ministry. It's just, it's almost an anthem, I think, for the ministry of the DNA, and I know, darrow, I have learned a lot about the depth of theology in this hymn from you and right at the beginning, I just want to mention to people that Darrow has written a whole blog series on this hymn, joy to the World by Isaac Watts. And you can, if this is a podcast that you're enjoying and you want to go deeper into this or share this with folks, obviously you can share the podcast. But you can go to Darrow's blog, which is called Darrow Miller and Friends, and you can search for Joy to the World and that'll pull up that series of blogs where Darrow goes into depth on theology and the meaning, the powerful meaning, of this hymn and guys go ahead, luke.
Luke Allen:Yeah, also, searching for Joy to the World will pull up about six of the blogs, but if you want to find the other nine, there's a bunch of them. There's a nine-part series that's titled Music that Writes Culture Highly recommend.
Scott Allen:Music that Writes Culture, yeah.
Tim Williams:And we can get some of those linked in the episode notes for this Great yes, so perfect.
Scott Allen:Thanks, tim, let's do that, make it easy for folks. Yeah, everyone knows this hymn. We sing it every Christmas. I love this hymn. It's just so upbeat and it's just powerful, you know. And so we're going to go through it by stanza. But before we do that, guys, I just want to give a little bit of background and welcome your thoughts on this as well. This is a hymn by Isaac Watt.
Scott Allen:Isaac Watt was a English minister, a congregational minister who lived. He was born in 1674, and he died in 1748. So for Americans this would have been right before our American Revolution, and this is a time of kind of really at the beginning, end of the Great Awakening you know sometimes called the Wesleyan revival, and you might think of really famous figures from that period of time, like John Wesley, of course, george Whitfield in America, jonathan Edwards. This was a time of incredible spiritual awakening and revival in the church, and so Isaac Watt was writing his hymns right around that same period of time. He was a prolific hymn writer. He wrote over 750 hymns and some of his most famous include when I Survey the Wonders Cross and Our God, our God, help in Ages Past. Many, many. We still sing today, which is really remarkable.
Scott Allen:He was a nonconformist and what that means is that he, like a lot of people, at this time there was a lot of kind of foment against state churches.
Scott Allen:I have attended the evangelical free church and that's a similar kind of has a similar kind of history.
Scott Allen:It comes out of the Scandinavian countries, where there was a state church, a Lutheran church, but the nonconformists wanted it to be free from state control and they wanted it to kind of be out of the control of the king or the political rulers, and so they wanted to fight for a free church. Same thing was happening in England. The state church was the Anglican church and these nonconformists, which included the Puritans and then the Separatists the Puritans were trying to purify right the state church, which they felt had become somewhat corrupt, and the Separatists, who wanted to separate entirely and worship freely. They were the ones that got on the Mayflower and came to the shores of New England and settled here, and so we owe a huge debt of gratitude to those folks as well. So all of this was happening around the time that Isaac Watts was writing his amazing, his, this amazing you know work of songwriting, guys and Darryl I know you've looked a lot into this as well. Any thing you want to add on to the history here?
Darrow Miller:I would just add that when Isaac was a late teenager, I think he was complaining to his father about the state of church music at the time of hymns and his father challenged him. He said well, if you don't like the hymns, write some. And that's what got him going in the hymnwriting business. If you might say and like, like you mentioned, scott, he. He wrote over 700 hymns and very prolific.
Dwight Vogt:I also saw that it was no small thing to be a nonconformist. They were denied access to political life. There were universities they couldn't attend. There were certain privileges in society they couldn't have. His dad was actually incarcerated twice for his nonconformist activity, so it was a pretty big deal.
Scott Allen:It was a big deal. They were really persecuted.
Dwight Vogt:And he wrote out of that. You know that history. I thought, well, it sort of makes sense when you listen to this, to the song.
Darrow Miller:Well, that speaks to us today, in the era in which we live, because there's a lot of pressure to conform, and if you don't conform then you are made to conform. And if we are following Christ sincerely, isn't there a place for being a nonconformist, isn't there a place for Christians to be countercultural, to re, to rebel against the current culture, and that will bring consequences. And it could be that, as we reflect on the consequences of what it could bring it, that causes us to not want to engage in nonconforming activity. It makes us want to conform so we don't have to face those consequences.
Scott Allen:Yeah, that's such a really powerful thought, darrow, and I think there really is a need today to look back to these folks and their courage, and I would just simply add that their nonconformity, I think wasn't because they were particularly rebellious.
Scott Allen:I mean it wasn't driven by that. They weren't rebellious revolutionaries, I think. Their nonconformity was driven by a heart that truly wanted to be obedient to Christ and to really honor Christ, and yet you know that ran afoul of what was happening in the country or the church at that time. And then you have to make choices, right. Would you rather kind of please men right or please God? And that's a choice that we all have to wrestle with, right? But there's a right answer to that. You don't want to be somebody who's driven by trying to please men or look good in the eyes of men. We need to seek to honor and to glorify God and put His word above all, and that's going to as you said, darrow, rightly, it's going to cause all of us who try to do that. It's going to cause us to face consequences in a fallen world for sure.
Scott Allen:Well, let's get into the hymn itself, guys and I love doing this because when we sing these hymns that we love so much, you know and I know this is true for me you know, you just kind of, you just got this imprinted on your mind and you just say the words, and it's so easy not to kind of think about what you're saying, and this one is one. We don't want to do that with it and none of them we do, but this one in particular. And so I'd like to just kind of go through it Verse by verse and we'll just talk about it a little bit. Let's start with the first verse. Joy to the world. The Lord is come, let earth receive her King, let every heart prepare him, room and heaven and nature sing. And that is repeated there. But the theme here is joy. That's the obvious theme here. Joy to the world. Guys, what are your thoughts on that first stanza?
Darrow Miller:I'll just simply say that joy to the world is a response to the reality. The Lord has come. And do we recognize that reality? And if we do, then there is a natural response and that is joy.
Scott Allen:Yeah, darrow, I would, I would. I was thinking about joy itself and just, you know, it's such a powerful idea, joy. I know people like to draw a distinction between joy and happiness, but the idea that that God wants us to be filled with happiness, to be filled with joy, and ultimately that can come from only one place. It can only come, you know, from a personal and a deep relationship with our creator. I think our pastor yesterday in church he, I can't remember who he quoted, but the quote is that we're always trying to find something else right, to bring us joy, some kind of idol or counterfeit or you know, this has fallen mankind's like quest. Right, it's trying to find happiness, find joy, apart from Christ, apart from God, and everything else is going to fail.
Scott Allen:You know, francis Schaefer talked about how we are relational beings and we're created for relationships and there's a primary relationship, that's the primary relationship with our own creator. But that relationship has been broken through the fall and consequently we're alienated from God and consequently we're miserable. We, you know, we're lost, and here this is a hymn that's talking about how God bridges that gap by coming to us, because it talks more about later, about love, the wonders of his love, his love for us, and that becomes the foundation, and the only true foundation in our lives. For for kind of a joy that nothing, right, it's, it's a solid joy. It's not, you know, it's not ephemeral, it's not, it's not something that can go away, it's. But anyways, thoughts on the just joy guys that Dara was talking about.
Luke Allen:I like what you were saying right there about how it needs to be. It needs to come from something. I think a lot of times when we think about joy, peace, thankfulness, you can kind of think that if you dig deep enough inside yourself you can pull it out and you can be a joyful person. And yet that's, that's really not true. I don't think you can find joy inside the human heart, as is without God.
Luke Allen:Joy, the fruits of the spirit. They're called the fruits of the spirit because as you grow in the spirit, the Holy Spirit indwells in you. You're going to live out those fruits in your life. It's not like today I'm going to have joy, tomorrow I'm going to have peace, the next day I'm going to. You can't do that. You can't just paste them on. That would be nice, but you can't because they're not rooted in anything. They're going to be, they're going to be these shallow representations.
Luke Allen:So when I look at joy in its true root, which is God, joy to the world, the Lord has come. When I look at other worldviews, other religions, since they all were formed inside of someone's mind, you know ideas have consequences, someone's heart, they're trying to dig up these. You know virtues, you could say they're all not going to be tied to anything because some other worldview can say they promote joy, but that joy isn't rooted in God, it came from someone's idea and therefore the consequence is going to be a counterfeit. It can look like joy for a while, but it's not going to last, whereas joy to the world the Lord has come is tied to God, and the more we grow in God, the more you know the fruits of the spirit are going to indwell in us, and joy is one of those.
Dwight Vogt:Now I read that and I you know it starts with joy to the world. And then the rest of the, the choral, are the. The hymn is the reason for that joy. He's come, he rules the world of peace and grace, and so basically it's saying here's why the world should have joy, because all of these things are true and they are real and they matter and they affect us, you know.
Darrow Miller:I would add here maybe you don't want us to go to the next part of this first line, scott, but oh no, go ahead Anything.
Scott Allen:Yeah, we'll kind of go through verse by verse. So anything in this first verse and you can jump ahead to Dero.
Darrow Miller:Well, I don't know. In one sense it's jumping ahead in terms of how it's written here, but it's not jumping ahead in terms of why the world should have joy. We call this a Christmas hymn and we sing it at Christmas, but it's probably better to call it a New Year's hymn, and we find the reason for that. In this first line, isaac Watts does not say the Lord has come, which is how we sing it normally, and that is the past tense. Yes, and it fits in with a Christmas theme. Christ was born, he has come. But that's not what Watts is pointing out here, and I think, if we don't look at the word is compared to the word has, we've missed probably the reason that he is. He has written this hymn.
Scott Allen:Wow, Dero, talk about that. That's. That's really profound. What's the difference here between? Has as you're correctly right. We often sing it the Lord has come. It's not what it is. He wrote the word is the Lord is come. What's the significance of that?
Darrow Miller:I think this is referring to the resurrection of Christ and coming ascension of Christ and coronation of Christ to be King. Yes, and he is come. Is the Messiah, the resurrected Messiah? The resurrected Jesus Christ is ushering in a new era of human history. He is come. He was born 2000 years ago but with the resurrection and soon ascension to heaven, he is come and I think this is what Watts is pointing out. There is the beginning of a new kingdom now and we need to realize that that is the reason for the joy to the world. The kingdom is coming and as we go through these other stanzas, I think we will see the dynamic nature of the coming kingdom, because Christ is come.
Scott Allen:Yeah, darrell, I there's so much you're saying there that I think needs to be unpacked a little bit, but I do want to. I do want to emphasize that this idea of King is really, is really key in this, is this whole him, that this is the picture of the savior, of Jesus. Here it is King, he's the King. Let earth receive her King. And in the next you know verse will read it says the savior reigns. Okay, so that's what a king does he reigns.
Darrow Miller:He is coronated.
Scott Allen:Yes.
Darrow Miller:This isn't about his birth, which would make it a Christmas him. It's about his coronation.
Scott Allen:Yes, earth receive her King her King and he last verse he rules the world. That's also present tense. You know he is presently ruling this world as King.
Darrow Miller:No, and we'll get to that as we go through the him. But that's the point we need to see in the very first line. Why is there joy to the world? Because the Lord is come. It's not that he has come as a babe in the manger. He is come now. He has resurrected from the dead and he is coronated the King. All authority in heaven and on earth belongs to Jesus Christ. He's Matthew, says in Matthew 28. So I just think that word is is important, it's not has, it's is and the idea that he's coronated King.
Scott Allen:You know, in the DNA we have what we call our core truths, that we emphasize, and this is the very first of them that Jesus is King, he is the King and he.
Darrow Miller:He rules presently, and I think it's important not just be the King when he comes back. Exactly which is how the church thinks.
Scott Allen:Yeah, there's a, there's a theology that's really dominant. It still is dominant, and it's this idea that, yes, jesus came, but then he ascended to heaven and until he comes back again, he's really disengaged, you know, and he's, you know, there really isn't a kingdom that's present, you know, in this world. Right, that would be the way of thinking about it it's, it's not going to be present until he comes back and he, until then he's disengaged. And I think this is what's pushing back against that kind of theological thinking. There's a, there's a, there's a and this is true in so many ways in the scripture. There's a past, present, future aspect to all of this. Right, jesus did come, he was born in a manger, past tense, he is calm, he is the King ruling, now, present tense, and he will come back and he will consummate the kingdom, right, you know. So it's just so important to kind of reflect on the reality of the present, where he is ruling and reigning.
Scott Allen:Now, of course, we don't see him ruling this is the author of Hebrews talks about this. We don't see him ruling in the sense that every knee is bowing to his Lordship. Now, no, there's a lot of sin, there's a lot of rebellion, even in our own hearts. Right, we still. You know, we who name the name of Christ. You know we've been saved, but we are also in the process of being saved. You know where we're becoming Christ. Like it's not yet reached its fulfillment. That happens when he comes back. So I think it's just this past, present, future is really important here, and I think Watts is getting at that guys other thoughts on that.
Tim Williams:I love that you guys are talking about King in the first verse because as I was reviewing the whole him start to finish making my notes I never wrote the word King down. You know had a lot of other observations but like, just, you know thinking about it as a Christmas song and you know, as you were talking about Scott in the beginning, you can just, it's so familiar, you know, you just can plow right through it and and miss it. One of the things that stood out to me in this very first line was was just the word to joy to the world. And it's toward the world. It's directional, as you guys were saying earlier. It's not, you know, let me conjure up joy within myself, but it is. It is a gift of God to the world.
Tim Williams:And and then the rest of this particular versus talking about it needs to be received. So it is, it is a gift of God toward us, but it has to be received. Let every heart prepare him room. Yes, let earth receive her King. And it's joy to the world, it's joy to every people, it's joy to every nation as we like to talk about. You know the biblical languages. It's comprehensive.
Scott Allen:I mean all of creation is is groaning, waiting for this full redemption and yeah, tim, thanks for bringing that up, because I think that's another theme in this him, you know one is the Lordship, the kingship of Christ. Right, he reigns, he rules. I mean, those are, those are he's King. He's come, he's been coordinated, as Darrell says, he's been crowned the King, and that's not just when he comes back, that's now. You know, he all authority and heaven and earth has been given to me. When he rose from the dead, he was coordinated to the King.
Luke Allen:Hi, friends, if you'd like to learn more about how you can disciple your family, your workplace, your school, your society or even your nation, make sure to check out our flagship online training course here at the Disciple Nations Alliance, which is called the Kingdomizer Training Program. We live in a world of poverty, corruption and injustice. We all know this isn't the way it should be and help needs to come from somewhere, but who is responsible to fight poverty and bring healing to our broken communities? The government or the church? The answer is the church, but unfortunately, we have largely neglected this responsibility here at the Disciple Nations Alliance.
Luke Allen:For the last 25 years, we have worked around the world helping Christians understand that our mission is more than saving souls for heaven. As we've mentioned multiple times during this episode. Our mission also includes being the hands and feet of God to transform the nations and bring healing, joy and transformation to our broken communities. If you'd like to learn more about how you can play a part in God's plan for the nations, check out the Kingdomizer training program and that is available at quorum dayo calm. Join over a million others who have learned how to bring biblical transformation into every corner of society by signing up today at quorum dayo calm again. That is quorum dayo calm, or you can always find the link in the episode page.
Scott Allen:But another theme is this yeah, like you were saying, tim, it's the world. Joy to the world. And the second verse, which we'll talk to in a second joy to the earth, the nations. It's this comprehensive. It's not just to a people, the Jews, or to the church, it's to Everybody to the individual world right. And yeah, for God's so loved the world right. There's this kind of cosmic Universality to to this he's the ruler of the world right.
Darrow Miller:That's another to his concern to his gift, yes to his care you mentioned a minute ago past president and future Scott. Yeah, and the past is the death of Christ For our redemption.
Darrow Miller:The present is sanctification, putting on the reality reality of Christ death and Resurrection and this is a progressive future right is the glorification and this, this hymn, is about the sanctification After the death and resurrection. Yes, and that's why, you know, I opening by. I open by saying we should probably call it a New Year's hymn rather than a Christmas hymn, because it is more about the new era, the new year Because of the resurrection and coronation of Christ, and it's not just, as we've said, to the individual, it's for the world, it's for all creation.
Scott Allen:Yeah, this, I love that, Darrow it's. It's really pointing to this new era when Jesus history yeah of history, where Jesus has now come Right in the flesh and now he rules over this world, right, you know, as king. So so, good guys, you know the just maybe before we go on to the next verse Let, as Tim said, let every heart prepare him room. Of course this is, I think, pointing to the picture in Bethlehem, where there wasn't any room right for for him right, but?
Scott Allen:but we have to receive. I like what you said a lot, tim. We have to receive him. We have to make a choice. God created us with freedom, the ability to make choices, and we can reject him, but our call is to receive him and to prepare room in our hearts for him. That's that's our response to this, isn't? It's really powerful.
Darrow Miller:But notice, it's not just personal. Let what every heart. This is for all human beings right, but it's prepare your heart Because the king reigns and it even goes beyond and there's joy heaven and nature right it's talking about let heaven and nature, the whole creation, right sing.
Scott Allen:So certainly individuals are key to that, but that's not the whole picture. Even that isn't the whole picture, darrow. Yeah.
Luke Allen:Yeah, what? Why is that that? Not just heaven, but also not just every heart, but also nature? Why that?
Darrow Miller:because all of nature I think that harrowing and travailing Until the revealing of the sons of God.
Scott Allen:I've got that passage in Romans 8, 18 through 24, the creation wails with eager longing For the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it in hope that the creation itself Would be set free from the bondage of corruption to obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God's famous Pastors. We emphasize that a lot in the DNA, that that this, this salvation, is Comprehensive. It extends to human beings but it affects the entire creation. And and he get, you know, watts gets at that in the second verse, right, he talks about fields and floods, rocks and hills and planes. I mean, we're talking about, you know, the landscape here. We're talking about creation, right? Here, yeah.
Dwight Vogt:It's funny you're talking about that. Let like creation saying yesterday I was babysitting my daughter's dog and at one point I got down on all fours and looked at in the face and I said, sayla, my job is to make your life better, because I'm supposed to rule over you in a really good way. And she just looked at me like what are you talking about? And I said, and sometimes I have no idea how to make your life better, because I'm supposed to free you somehow.
Dwight Vogt:So anyway I was preaching Isaac Watts song to her and she didn't get it, but I love it.
Scott Allen:It's very, very st Francis of you right there, you know yeah. Literal or it's not.
Tim Williams:You know, it's either true or it's not you know, I read an article as we were preparing that said that they thought Psalm 98 was in Isaac Watts mind as he was writing this, and I'll read verses 6 through 9, which you can see a lot of commonality With. Trumpets and the sound of the horn make a joyful noise before the king, the Lord. Let the sea roar and all that fills it, the world and those who dwell in it. Let the rivers clap their hands, let the hills sing for joy together before the Lord, for he comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world with righteousness and the peoples with equity.
Luke Allen:Yeah, that's one of my favorite verses. This, this concept though, because of the sacred secular divide, I still have a hard time wrapping my head around it, you know is that salvation isn't just for humans, because we always think of sacred as inside of us and our hearts or souls, you know, that's, that's what Christ saved. But it's not, it's that, it's, it's his creation as well, and I just I find that so fascinating. It's something to really, to really. I was also thinking when you were reading the wall, fields and rocks, hills and plains, repeat the sounding joy that's.
Luke Allen:We're about to get to that part, but I can't help but think of that, that scene during the triumphal entry, when the people are, you know, joyfully praising God, and it's in Luke, let's see Luke 1940 and it says Everyone, you know it's palm branches and Jesus is marching through. Blessed the king who comes in the name of the Lord, peace on in heaven, glory in the highest. And then some of the Pharisees come up and they say Jesus, you know, teacher, rebuke your disciples. And Jesus's response is so good and it's pointing through this, you know, creational aspect, and he says I tell you he replied, if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out as well, and that's. The earth is longing, groaning. The stones are crying out for Jesus's return, for for what was going to come next after the triumphal entry well, this is Relating, I think, to the fact that we're all taught naturalistic Mindset.
Darrow Miller:We're taught evolution in school.
Darrow Miller:And so we may be Christians in our heart but naturalists in our minds, and it's hard for us to conceive of the oceans roaring and Nature singing, and that's because we are materialists in our minds. The Bible is not simply Focused on nature. It's focused on heaven and earth, on the spiritual, the transcendent and what we call natural. But we should call creation and we need to re Imagine, we need to have minds that re Enchant the world, the creation, because it's more than a naturalistic universe. And we have Disenchanted creation for our materialistic background, even as Christians, even as we, within the DNA, have fought against our own naturalistic, rationalistic tendencies. Oh, we see in the Psalms, we see in this Romans passage, the enchantment of creation. And Is there a place in our minds to consider that? Because there ought to be and I think this is probably part of what Isaac Watts is presenting to us here is the reenchantment of creation.
Scott Allen:I this takes me, darrow, back to something I learned from you and it's been really a life lesson for me. I've come back to it over and over again. I think you learned it from Francis Schaefer, but it's to consider the relational kind of relational element of Reality that we are made. We are relational beings, made for relationship, and you know, there's the relationship, the primary Relationship with with our Creator. Then there's the relationship that we have with ourselves, right, and then there's a relationship that we have with one another, as other, with other human beings, and then, lastly, there's the relationship that we have with creation itself, right, as people that have dominion over it. And I think it's important to reckon on the fact that when we fell, all of those relationships were broken, that this was really helpful for me, because we're aware of the fact is evangelicals, that our relationship with God was broken. Everything is all about repairing that relationship, but every other relationship was broken as well our relationship to ourselves.
Scott Allen:Who am I? I don't know, and this leads to our misery, not our joy, right? Just, you know, we don't even know who we are. We're at war with ourselves and Our relationship or broken relationships to one another, wars, hatred, conflict, violence and our broken relationship to creation. So, instead of a Rightly stewarding creation, we're dispoiling it, we're raping it, pillaging it. Right, and that's why it's groaning, right, and here comes Jesus. Now, joy to the world. Right, he's come. And he's come not just to reconcile us to God but to everything else. Right, it starts with that first relationship.
Scott Allen:Other relationships can only be reconciled once that primary relationship is reconciled with God. But once we have that reconciled we can begin to reconcile relationships to ourself, to others and To creation. That's why that Romans passage talks about creation waiting for that to happen, so that we can rightly rule and, you know, govern over it as we ought to. So, luke, again, that that's to me. That was one of my life lessons, you know, from Darrow, I think, and others. Just this to consider faith in this bigger relational way. That makes sense of the whole and not just the spiritual relationship to God. I really think this is what you know. It's really a key thing coming out of this. Him too, so you.
Dwight Vogt:Yeah, scott, when I think of Joy to the World, this coral, I'm sorry this carol unlike any other, captures what you just said, those, those, those relationships, and it alone stands out and says yes, these matter and this is why he came to restore all of those.
Darrow Miller:That's right, yes, the whole, the whole creation is groaning and travailing, waiting for what you. Yeah, when, I when.
Darrow Miller:I teach from this passage? I'll ask the group what is creation waiting for? It's waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. And I'll ask people, how many of you are the children of God? And virtually everybody in the room raises their hand. Ok, good. What does this verse say? Creation is waiting for you To what Function is? Children of God? Not naturalists, but children of God. And it seems here what says let earth receiver King, let every heart cannot talking about people, and and then let heaven and nature sing. We want to move the creation from groaning and travailing through it's singing. Yeah.
Darrow Miller:There needs to be a change here, and this is part of the new years, carol. How did you say it, dwight Carol, carol, christmas Carol.
Dwight Vogt:Sorry, the New Year's Carol.
Darrow Miller:Carol, carol him. I like the New Year's idea.
Tim Williams:I also hear Easter when you say it you know, Easter we talk about resurrection and yeah. So let me jump in.
Dwight Vogt:Darryl you're talking about. Let let every heart prepare him room and receive her King. And Tim, you alluded to this way at the beginning when I heard just heard you. If I add that to what Scott says about the four relationships, then what we hear is we are bringing the King into our hearts, we're bringing him, we're making room for the King to dwell in us so that we can rule and reign in those four relationships, that we can do our job that God gave us to do, that we can and we can be these redeem people that he's called us to be.
Scott Allen:I think that's a good transition to the second verse. You know, guys too, because it's very much along these same themes that we're talking about now. Joy to the earth, the Savior reigns. Let men their songs employ, while fields and floods, rocks, hills and plains, the creation, repeat the sounding joy. So it's this wonderful picture, isn't it guys? So we've been redeemed, and now you know we're to sing about that. Right, let men their songs employ, sing for joy, and then the creation echoes it. Right, isn't that the coolest thing here? I don't think I've ever seen it as clearly as I have right now. You can repeat let them echo it back. Repeat that joy.
Scott Allen:Very similar to what we've just been talking about here with the you know once. As you said, dwight, once we have been saved, we experience joy First of all. I mean that's that's what it means to be redeemed and to know who you are. Right to know that you are loved by the king of the universe right, you are loved, he cares for you. Right, sing, sing about that, and that's going to lead to an echo in all of creation that's going to repeat that joy. Go ahead, darrell.
Darrow Miller:This is like an antiphonal hymn.
Scott Allen:Yes.
Darrow Miller:You know when you have some of the chorus a choir up front and some in the back and they sing antiphonally and you have man singing and creation singing. Man singing, creation singing. There's an antiphonal hymn going on here. The echoing.
Scott Allen:Yeah, I, you know, let men their songs employ to. You know, here's Isaac Watts, right, this great hymn writer. I mean, that's essentially his job description, right, it's like that was his calling in life, if you will. You know, is to employ songs right to to express the profound beauty of, of of the scriptures, and of reading scriptures, and of reality. So, yeah, I, I do love this kind of idea. Though, back to creation, joy to the earth. You know, in the second verse he's talking about the earth.
Scott Allen:When I, when I see that word earth, I think of creation, right. Joy to the world, yes, but here we're talking about joy to the earth. And he even goes and he unpax it by talking about these elements of of this world, you know fields and floods, and rocks, and hills and plains, and flowers and trees, and oceans and birds and everything right.
Darrow Miller:So yeah, Well then he's repeating. In the first stanza he says let earth receive her king, second one, the savior reigns.
Tim Williams:Yeah.
Darrow Miller:The savior is the king. Yes, right, and this isn't just. He'll be king when he comes back. And this is another limiting factor in our understanding of these things. The the way the church thinks of things today. Jesus is king of heaven, but he's not king of earth. He'll be king of earth when he comes back. That's how we tend to think. No, the savior reigns today. All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me, and Watts understands that far more than we do in the church in the modern world.
Scott Allen:Darryl, just on that, because I know that one of the reasons people are confused about this really important point, because if you really reckon on the fact that Jesus rules today, he's king, uh, you know, everyone right is, is accountable to him, is under his authority, he is, you know. He's not up there sleeping today. He's present in our hearts, in this world and he's ruling today. That changes your life. That really does. But I think the thing that people struggle with is that you know, they look around at the world and they don't see it, right. You know there's so much evil, right? I mean, we're just now a couple of weeks, you know, beyond this horrible evil that happened in Israel, and there's just so much. And there's natural disasters, there's disease, there's death, there's all of this evil. So it talked to that. Talk about that, darryl. What does it mean that Jesus rules and reigns today, even in the midst of this world? It's still so fallen. Because I think people do struggle with that I describe it when I'm teaching.
Darrow Miller:We're living between the time of the resurrection and the consummation of history and it's like a pregnancy and in a woman, when she conceives of a child, there's a time of justation. You don't see the baby, but there's justation going on. And at the time the consummation of the pregnancy you see the product of the gestation. And I think we need to see, not with materialistic eyes, but with enchanted eyes, with eyes that see all of creation, the spiritual and the so-called physical. We need to see with those eyes because God is at work in the midst of all the evil and bad that is happening. We need to understand that he's working in the midst of this and it will come with clarity when the pregnancy is consummated and when history is consummated.
Scott Allen:I think what helps people and helps me, darryl is that we can see that work of Christ, probably the clearest in our own lives. We know what we were like. For those of us who became Christians, accepted Christ, were redeemed. I was in high school and I have a sense of the change that that brought in my life, like the profound change, and I could go on and on about that. But it wasn't just in my life, in my heart or in my mind. It began to ripple outwards and it began to affect my family, you know. It began to affect work and pretty much everything that I did. Right, and that's a reality and I think we need to reckon on that, that, that you know Christ is at work in this world in a redeeming way, not just in people's lives. Certainly, it starts there, but it goes out from there and it affects every sphere of society. Right, as these principles and these truths of the Bible are lived out or incarnated Now, does that mean that the world is getting better and better? No, I think.
Scott Allen:For me, the thing that makes sense of that is the parable of the wheat and the weeds. Again, you know that you've got these two things happening. You've got this, you know this advance, if you will, of the kingdom of God. Right, you know that's moving, that's that's advanced. You know that's moving, that's that's advancing. At the same time, you've got these weeds that are growing. We just tend to see the weeds right. I mean, we, we, we, we experience the pain and the suffering of this fallen world and we see it in the headlines of the news and that's what we tend to fixate on. But I think we need to give a lot of attention to the other side, the wheat that's growing as well, you know.
Darrow Miller:But also Scott. This is a good transition to the third.
Scott Allen:Yes, stands.
Darrow Miller:Yes, this is let's do that Now here we have our marching orders, because the Lord is come. Yes, he is King now. And what does he say? No more let sin and sorrows grow, nor thorns infest the ground. We are to be active under his Lordship, under his kingship, to push back against the evil in the world. Not to be passive, not to simply pray, lord, come back. No, he's not telling us to pray, lord, come back. He's telling us to no longer let sin and sorrow rain or thorns infest the ground. This is our marching order.
Scott Allen:This is actively pushing back against the fall right.
Darrow Miller:That's what this pushing back against the fall. That's what we're reading here.
Scott Allen:Yes, yeah, that's what we're reading here.
Darrow Miller:And Isaac Watts understands this. This is our work, in God's grace. It's what it's, our marching orders. And in the Romans passage, nature is groaning and travelling. Waiting for what? The revealing of the children of God, the sons of God. Who are we? Okay, well, we are to reveal who we are. By no more let sin and sorrow grow. Yes, that's. That's the wheat and the weeds right.
Scott Allen:It's this thing that's growing, but we're to push back against that.
Dwight Vogt:Yes, Um, when I was reflecting on this podcast, what you guys are talking about actually stumped me a bit. Not stumped me, but that's where I ended up thinking about. What does it mean for no more thorns to grow and sorrows to increase, you know? And yeah, I think it's. I think this is the sin of the church today to not see this truth yes and in the sense that we say well, the King, the joy of the world, the King has come, and so we have this idea that is come, Even that even that we sing we sing the Lord has come.
Dwight Vogt:Okay, the reality is it is come. Okay, that's sin number one, but but sin number two is we have this sense of well, god should fix everything. Exactly, why isn't he fixing everything? He's come, he's here, he should fix this, he should make this better. But and I'm not saying that God doesn't interact with the world in nature. He does, we know that, but we almost take an animistic view of life, and animism pervades most of the world Islam, buddhism, folk religions and it's this idea that if you can just get the spirits to change the world, you'll be better off. If you can, the spirits are in control and our ideas, well then, jesus should be in control. He should fix everything. And, and the irony is he said I am come to be the King in you, and now you will exercise dominion over yourself, over your, your relationships and over creation. And we, we miss that.
Scott Allen:We don't see it. Yes, dwight, I, I, I go. This goes back to what Darrell was saying, that this is our part. There's an active call in this third verse no more let sins and sorrows grow, nor thorns and fast the ground. I mean, this is, this is taking us back to the fall right. The fall right, the thorns and the thistles and the pain and childbirth and all the effects of the fall right. Don't just stand passively, you know, in the face of that. No, push back, push back. And because he comes to bring healing and blessing, as far as the curse is found right. Everywhere you see evidence of the fall, in your own life, in your community in the world, everywhere you see evidence of that fall.
Scott Allen:push back right, push back in the power and the strength of of the king, right, okay, but but yeah, this is not. This is active. And, by the way, it's interesting that this is my favorite of the three verses, four verses it's the one that we don't sing. It always gets dropped. Have you guys noticed that too?
Speaker 4:We always skip right to the fourth one. It's the one, that's fourth.
Dwight Vogt:One right, I copied the lyrics down the day and realized after I'd gone to the internet and come to the internet and copied the lyrics down that it was missing this verse.
Scott Allen:It always is the one that gets cut out. I was thinking we sing it. We sing it with three verses instead of four right.
Tim Williams:Yes, we don't want to take sin seriously, but if we're going to see the Lordship of Christ, Christ, ruling and reigning in the world and in our nations and our communities, sin is serious and it it does not perpetuate joy, and joy is what the king has come to bring. But there's a way that it comes. Yes, it doesn't just come any which way.
Scott Allen:Yes.
Scott Allen:When I see the word blessings here too. He comes to make his blessings flow. One of the key verses that we, you know, often cite in the DNA is Genesis 12, one in two God's call to Abraham. God raises up Abraham and through him, you know, he promises to make him into a great nation. And then he says and I will bless you, I will bless you. And then he goes on and he gives that him. The charge that you know ripples through all time until Jesus comes back and you will be a blessing and all the nations on earth will be blessed through you. And it's that basic mission of the people of God to be you've been blessed, you have joy.
Scott Allen:Now go be a blessing, you know, to all the nations, right, cause at the end, all the nations will be blessed through you. I just think that understanding clearly as we can, this mission, this purpose that we have as Christians. Right, we've been blessed, yes, not just for ourselves, no, so that the whole world. Yeah, go ahead.
Darrow Miller:Darrell, we see this in the cultural mandate in Genesis one. He gives us a task, adam and Eve a task. And then what does he do? He blessed them. He blessed them for the task he's given them. And that's what we're saying here. The blessings are to flow. We've been given a task, and the blessings it's not that we're responsible for the whole. There's a bigger picture and we have a part in the whole and the blessings are to flow and we're to be instruments of those blessings, because God has blessed us. Yes.
Scott Allen:Yeah. So I would just challenge our listeners and myself, even here where do you see evidence of the curse? In your own life, in your family, in your community, in your nation? Where do you see it? How do you see it? Don't stand there passively right, be active. That's right. Be active, push back against it. Bring the blessing of God over and against those places where there's brokenness.
Tim Williams:Let's Isaac Watts saw that the hymns weren't good, and so he went about making new hymns. So you know, yeah, just a spot where he saw that he could contribute.
Scott Allen:Yeah, and I think that is a really great point, tim that God gives us all a place to contribute, and it's not all the same, and it's not all necessarily even like some big grand thing I'm gonna save my city or save the world. No, you know, we see this in the parable of the talents, right, you know, god gives us a specific calling and then he equips us for that calling and it's different. What is yours? That's the key question. What is he? You're here, you're saved for a reason right, to push back against these thorns and sorrows and sins in your own life and then beyond that. But what is your specific part in that?
Darrow Miller:Well, and hymns in the past have been written to give us profound biblical truth, and we see that here in this carol, in this hymn, and when you look at the church today, so much of our worship is an inch deep. We repeat endlessly these mantras, these choruses, and where is the writing of great hymns today taking place in the church and where is the singing of the great hymns of history that provide us with profound truth? These are missing and it's one of the reasons the church is not pushing it back against the evil, is not pulling out the weeds. We're more lulling ourself with Hindu mantras than we are being charged for the battle.
Scott Allen:I think that's particularly true when it comes to mission Darrow. You know so much of our current kind of choruses that we sing in evangelical churches today. They're good, but it's about our relationship with God and it's kind of ending there, right, and it doesn't go beyond that to like what this hymn does. What's your role beyond that in this world, right? What's the mission of the church and what's your role in that? Keith Greene used to bring a lot of that into his songs, but boy, it seems like that's missing today so much. Anyways, it's kind of taking us down a little bit of a rabbit trail, but I think it's a really important point.
Dwight Vogt:Thanks, Darrow.
Scott Allen:Balladiers are important, yeah, yeah.
Darrow Miller:Hindu mantras. Hindu mantras, Balladiers are important. They are, yes. Where are the great, the producers today of future great hymns?
Scott Allen:Yes, like Isaac Watts, there's a lot of creativity in the church.
Darrow Miller:There's a lot of creativity and available in worship leaders, but where is the vision of pushing it back against the fall and writing clear hymns that convey profound biblical truth?
Scott Allen:And if you're interested in this particular part of our discussion, I would encourage you to read a book that Darrow wrote called the Call.
Darrow Miller:For Balladiers.
Scott Allen:I had to get that title right there because that's what that book is about. I encourage you to pick that up and avail yourself of the message of that book. It's a really powerful book. Let's go on and get to the final verse. He rules the world. That's again that's a theme, isn't it? The savior reigns, he's king, he rules this world with truth and grace and makes the nations again that's another theme the nations. He makes the nations prove the glories of his righteousness and the wonders of his love.
Scott Allen:What are your thoughts on that final verse?
Luke Allen:Well, I hadn't thought about this before. You just read it. But why makes there? Have you guys thought about that word? Why that word choice? Like you could say, he encourages, but he makes.
Scott Allen:Why is that Good observation Air?
Tim Williams:base seems a little pushy. You know, there's a natural law that God has placed into the world, and when we observe it we see the goodness of it. When we choose to work against it, we still see the goodness of the law itself. We break ourselves against that natural law. And so, in that way, you know, we, as individuals or nations, or what have you, prove the law exists, the righteousness and truth of that law.
Darrow Miller:Well, his righteousness is glorious, yeah, and we live in a world. It's a post-truth world and it says here he rules the word world with truth and grace. We live in a post-truth world and truth. We, as Christians, are to be the proclamers of truth and that's when we do that there are consequences when we hide from the truth or stick our heads in the sand. That's not available to critique a culture, to critique where we're at. I'm just and I don't know if you want to keep this in the podcast, Luke, but I'm just thinking of what happened in Congress last week with the testimony of those three university presidents. They could not acknowledge that what happened was evil, was evil. When Hamas attacked Israel, they couldn't bring themselves to say that the rape and the destruction that took place was evil. In their testimony before Congress they said it depends on the context. No, that was evil, and I think this has been seen in the last week since that testimony. There's something true here. There is moral evil and if you don't recognize that, there's righteousness goes and sorrow grows.
Scott Allen:Yeah, darrell, I had a similar thought just as I was looking at this again. He rules the world with truth and grace, and just those two. This is how he exercises his rule with truth and grace, and how opposite it is to our time right now, where you see powerful people trying to, in this post-truth way, darrell, like you say, rule, exercise, control or rule through propaganda, through creation of false narratives, through censorship and silencing anyone who would push back against that false narrative. In other words, they're trying to rule through lies.
Scott Allen:Without grace and for malevolent purposes right. Yeah, so you could think of COVID maybe, for example. Right, there's just lies surrounding that whole episode of COVID, from the beginnings of it, the origins of it, you name it, but it's all malevolent, right. And so what we see in this particular time in our fallen world, is almost just the opposite of what we're talking about here this king rules. With truth, not with propaganda or lies or censorship. With truth and grace and here I'm tying grace in with righteousness and goodness right.
Scott Allen:It's not malevolent, it's good. What a thank God right For that, that he rules with truth and with grace and we're to be agents of that right. And this is where we might have to be counter-cultural right. We might have to become non-conformists, as we talked about at the very beginning of the podcast, because we live at a time of such incredible propaganda right now. It's just, it's like weeds in a garden that have just like gone crazy, but Jesus doesn't rule that way?
Darrow Miller:yeah, and what is the symbol of truth and grace? It's the cross. That's the place where truth and grace come together and he rules with truth and grace and he demonstrates that rule by the cross, by going to the cross, he is the king, but he is the suffering king Amen.
Scott Allen:Darrell to Luke's point. He makes the nations prove. It says he rules the world with truth and grace and makes the nations prove the glories of his righteousness and wonders of his love. What do you think that means there, darrell, and your reflections on this, that he makes the nations prove?
Darrow Miller:Well, I don't think it's. How would you say it tyrannically, but what we're? Talking about. Is that what we've just talked about? Through his own modeling for us to coming together of truth and grace and as nations follow Christ, as all authority in heaven and earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, as nations are discipled, truth and grace will manifest themselves in those nations, and we have seen that historically, and that's what it means to make the nations prove the glory of his righteousness.
Scott Allen:Is that what you're saying, darrell?
Darrow Miller:Yeah, and when nations manifest that, it is beneficial to the nation and it proves something about God's truth and grace. And when a nation promotes the opposite of that, it leads to decadence and despair and destruction and chaos.
Scott Allen:I wanna make and we are witnessing that today.
Scott Allen:I wanna make a. Really, I think this is something that's really been on my heart for the last week or so because, as you guys know, there's a lot of talk right now in the country and in the church about Christian nationalism and it's being used as a kind of a scare tactic against the church. Right, you don't wanna be a Christian nationalist. It's like the Taliban you're trying to impose, right, this Christianity on people and it's dangerous, very dangerous, et cetera, et cetera.
Scott Allen:I heard a Christian recently in national news even kind of saying more or less the same thing like these Christian nationalists are so bad because they are trying to impose their beliefs on the nation. Right, Like, how bad is that? And he made the point that we are citizens of heaven, that's our citizenship. And I would say, yes, that's true, right so. And then he went on and he implied that we shouldn't have anything to do with our nations. Right, Like that's not our realm of interest, or we should. That's the nations are falling, whatever it is, we just need to be kind of citizens of heaven.
Darrow Miller:And I thought, oh my gosh, he's totally missing it, you know that's the manifestation of the sacred secular divide, right there Exactly, and it's just the opposite of what this hymn is talking about.
Scott Allen:It's where our role is to make the nations prove right that Jesus is the king, and that's going to have evidence. When I think of proof, there's evidence right. There's evidence that Jesus is the king in the way that the nation carries out its business, does it treat people with dignity and respect, does it uphold the rule of law right, these kinds of things. That's making the nations prove right to me.
Dwight Vogt:Well, and the next phrase is what does he make the nations prove the glories of his righteousness and righteousness is really God's goodness. God, you were referring back to that. It's his goodness, his beauty, his truth. It's everything that we seek in life is captured in that word righteousness.
Speaker 4:And the wonders of his love and love and love exactly, and somebody's going to be making the nations prove the reality of their worldview.
Scott Allen:That would be another way of saying this. Right, I mean, there's going to be evidence of some worldview guiding the nations. If it's not this one, the truth of the true king, it's going to be something else, right? So, boy, I just, I really I just thought this is so bad for Christians to be thinking this way. No, we don't make the kingdom come. That's God's work, but he's doing that through us, right, and that's our. We've got a role to play in this and we want to see the nations blessed. We want to see the nations display the wonders of Christ's love and righteousness. Yeah, if you don't think that way as a.
Scott Allen:Christian. Something's wrong. Right, if you think that we just need to be disengaged and disattached from this world and from the nations of this world and just kind of hang out in heaven or whatever. The idea is, something's really wrong.
Luke Allen:Yeah, I mean. When we talk about Christian nationalism, the first question is always what do you mean? By that.
Luke Allen:I think there's a lot of different ways people define that. What you guys are talking about right here, though, is, I would say, probably the most prevalent view in what that pastor I watched that clip Too Dead that Christian leader was saying on the news. He was saying Christian nationalism is just any Christian that's living out their faith in a way that it influences their citizenship to their country, like you're actually living it out in the polls or in the voting booth or whatever that is, which, of course, is what we're all called to as Christians, because you need to read the first line of this section that we're talking about right now he rules the world.
Luke Allen:Who rules the world? Our world, god. Where is God's kingdom? Heaven, but it's also on this world, that's right. We don't live in Satan's kingdom, we live in God's kingdom and because of that, as a US citizen, I live in God's kingdom and the United States, but ultimately God's my king, so that's gonna affect the way I live.
Scott Allen:Yes, and that should result in the nation of the United States proving the glories of his love and righteousness, and things like that. Yeah, well said Luke.
Luke Allen:And I still think we do come back to this theological sticky point where it's. But we're not trying to bring back the kingdom. We can't do that. God ultimately does that. The fact of the matter is this world, because of the fall, is in a slippery slope back in the sin constantly. We see it in our own human hearts, we see it in the world around us and, as Christians, our jobs to swim upstream. The natural current of things flows towards death. But that idea of swimming upstream is really what this hymn's calling us towards is. We might make some progress, but ultimately you gotta swim hard and we can see progress, but until Jesus returns it's gonna be that constant push of no more let sin or sorrows grow with the ones that test the ground.
Scott Allen:Yeah, luke, it's back to the terrorism, it's back to the terrorism.
Dwight Vogt:Wheat where you have weeds and you have fruitful product.
Luke Allen:Yeah, alongside each other.
Dwight Vogt:And I wanna push back a little bit, because one thing at Christmas I reflect on is my family and extended family, and I get cards from everybody and I had a couple of Christian grandparents, on both sides, maternal and paternal. They love God, they worshiped him and they exhibited righteousness in their lives and, for one reason or another, every grandchild, every child, every grand-grandchild that I know of in our family, and there's probably a hundred of us, our followers of Jesus Christ and living, we're living good lives and I think that's just a total miracle. But it's, it's evidence of, of the kingdom growing. I mean, yeah, is it gonna be quashed against? I guess eventually it will, but but there is real growth of the kingdom. It you can see it if you know beside in my own family. That's, that's a miracle and I see that as the kingdom.
Luke Allen:Yeah, I agree with you. You're saying that it's you can make progress. Sometimes you can see progress for the kingdom in our lives and I would. I would agree with that. I wasn't, I wasn't trying to push against that. We are swimming upstream, though still. I mean Isaac Watts. During his time we saw in early America. There was a, there was a great awakening, there was, there was a momentum shifts towards, you know, god's rulership on this world and because of that we have a country that's rooted in a lot of biblical virtues and the blessings of that still affect us today.
Luke Allen:So it's it's a constant back and forth, but yeah, when, when you live out, you know yeah.
Dwight Vogt:Satan is still. Prouling around active. I mean, that's never, that didn't go away.
Scott Allen:You know he talks in the him about. He's come to make his blessings flow. There's this kind of idea of the force, like a river, like it's pushing over this fallen world. It's going to flood it and I, you know, because I think we tend to see it the other way around it's like it's damned up and Satan's kingdom is just having its way. But here it's just kind of the opposite. It's like no, there's a force to it. It's rushing forward this blessing, this joy, you know so.
Darrow Miller:Satan is still alive, but he is a defeated enemy and we need to realize that. Too often we think that he is not a defeated enemy. He is the victorious one. He is not. Christ conquered the fear of death and then Christ conquered death itself, defeating Satan in both the fear and and death. And we need to you know so. When we talk about Satan, we need to remind ourselves that he is alive, but he has been defeated and this is part of this him Christ has conquered death and he is going to be coronated and he is the king and and we are to follow him into battle.
Darrow Miller:And If the gates of hell will not prevail, not prevail. That's the same idea.
Scott Allen:There's a force behind it and Satan's on the defensive here.
Darrow Miller:That's right, right, and the gates of hell will not prevail.
Scott Allen:We just would.
Darrow Miller:But who's on the offensive? Yeah if the gates of hell will not prevail, who's on the offense?
Scott Allen:the children of God right.
Darrow Miller:That's right. And that's very different than sticking our heads in the sand and waiting.
Scott Allen:Yeah, I Want to wrap us up here, guys, with the, the very last words of the of the hymn that speak of the wonders, the wonders of his love. I'm writing Right now on that word, love, and so I put a lot of thought into it of late, and it's it's one of these words that it's so hard sometimes to get your head around, but I just want to. I just want to. To me, there is something that's incredibly wondrous about God's love, and when I think of love, after reflecting on it here for a while, it's it's this idea that God delights you know, he finds joy in his relationship with us, with you, and that he's for you and that he wants to be near you in an intimate relationship.
Scott Allen:And you know this idea that he Values you, you're worth so much to him. Right, worth and value are important aspects of love, so much so that he would die for you and that he would commit himself To you in a covenant, right, like it's kind of this unbreakable thing. Right, there's nothing that can separate us from the love of Christ, and it's, you know. You could go on and on, but the but. The joy comes from that right in this hymn, the joy comes from the fact that God sets his wondrous love on each one of us, and that's the foundation for all of this. There's no other source of joy than in knowing God's love and the love that he has, not just for you and for me, but for the whole world, right? So any thoughts, guys, on that? Is we the?
Scott Allen:cause wrap up with that.
Dwight Vogt:Yeah, again, I think that's the theme of this, this song. It's like the wonders of his love in terms of all the world, the all the cosmos, the animals, the birds, the hills loves them the floods. He loves everything. See us. Lewis talks about how we we say God is love and then we have our own definition of love. So that's what God is. But he said love is God. To know God is to know love and everything that God does is Driven by his love.
Darrow Miller:And his love is costly. Christ, because of his love, went to the cross, cost his life, and Because of God's love, he sent his son to the cross. So we have to as we talk about love. There's a costliness to love, and I think this is part of what Isaac Watts is talking about. Christ is come, he is king, but he passed through the cross to become king and Now he is giving us our marching orders and we are to fight against the weeds were to fight against the, the curse and the evil in the world, and Love Will pay the price for doing that, and that that's a question I think we all need to wrestle with those To love in this way. Are we willing to pay the price?
Scott Allen:Yeah, love is such a uniquely biblical idea and I was reflecting on this when I was thinking about other worldviews and how, when love, when the bib, when the Christian worldview kind of diminishes in a culture like it is in the West right now, you don't see any other worldview that comes into replace it that can sustain love. Right, there's just you know.
Scott Allen:Love doesn't grow out of a Marxist worldview. You can think of other things. You can think of envy, or bitterness, or Alienation, you know, or payback, or whatever vengefulness. You can think of these other ideas, but not love. There's no love there, right. Or you know even an animism, right, there's fear, but there's not love. Islam, right, whatever it is right. Where do you get this idea of love from? It comes from God, you know, through the scriptures, into any kind of, you know, worldview. That's you know, that's, that's biblical, that's rooted in the Bible and that don't think it comes anywhere else. Such a powerful biblical concept.
Luke Allen:Yeah, back at the beginning, dad, you mentioned how we often make the differentiation between joy and happiness and I think that is important sometimes, because If you do confuse those, then you think if you're joyful You're always gonna be happy and no, in this world you will have troubles, but you're still commanded, as Philippians 4, 4 tells us rejoice always. Again I'll say rejoice. You know the root word of rejoice is joy and you know even Christ, right before he he died. Hebrews 12 to it says for, for the joy set before him, he endured the cross squirming at shame. Joy comes through the suffering, james 1, to count it all.
Luke Allen:Joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds. It's, it's a command that we should always, that we should always uphold To the, to the highs and lows of life, and in that we're gonna. Really, that's that. What a way to be a witness. You know, hmm, we're called to. You know you, the world will know us by our love. The world will also know us by our joy. You know those are very, very closely tied, especially here at Christmas. That joy, sharing joy, is such a way to shine Christ light to those around us. It really sticks out in this world and when you see it, you know it, because it's unique.
Scott Allen:And I love the way Watts, you know he kind of bookends the the, the hymn here, by starting with joy and ending with love, Because to me, love is the source of that joy and it's this bedrock thing, it's this unshakable thing. In other words, like you're saying, in a fallen world, right, you can lose your health, you can lose your Children, you know there's all sorts of things that can be lost and Pain and suffering, but there's something that can never be taken away from you and that's God's love. It's like solid and you know it's. You know this is what Paul said in Romans right, what shall separate us from the love of God? Nothing we can. Just. That's just. That is that is a bedrock source of joy for us, no matter what the circumstances may be. That's, that's, that's a bedrock for all of our lives, isn't it, guys?
Luke Allen:Yeah, and it's those kind of things that can sustain us. You know I Love Christmas, but for a lot of people it's a hard time here, it's not an easy. It's not an easy time of year, but doesn't mean you should lose your joy. You know, easy for me to say, but you know Proverbs does tell us Joy is good medicine. You know, and, nehemiah, the joy of the Lord is my strength. Even even if Christmas is a hard time for you, it's still.
Scott Allen:It's still Called to have joy guys, such great thoughts and, again, I just I love, like we did just, coming back to this hymn and looking at it again. I always get new insights. It's so it tracks so closely to the things that God has put on our heart at the DNA, doesn't it guys? It's kind of amazing. So, anyways, it's just it's been a joy, joy to be with you guys and to unpack this powerful theology, and I hope all of you who are listening you know, or kind of caught up in that joy too, and we just want to wish you all a very blessed and Merry Christmas from the DNA. Have a great week, guys.
Luke Allen:Thank you for joining us for this Christmas special here on ideas have consequences. If you'd like to spend some more time in the next few days before Christmas Continuing to learn about our favorite Carol joy to the world, make sure to visit this episode's page, which is linked in the show notes below, and on that page you can find all of the blogs that we've referenced today during this episode, from the Darrow Miller in friends blog. If you are new to the Podcast, feel free to head back to any of our previous episodes. This is a topical show so you can really start anywhere and bounce around as you wish.
Luke Allen:Ideas have consequences is brought to you by the disciple nations alliance. To learn more about our ministry, you can find us on Instagram, facebook, twitter and YouTube, or on our website, which is disciple nations org. And again, if you'd like to learn more about our flagship training program here at the DNA, which is the Kingdomizer training program, you can find out more about that at corumdalecom. If you'd like to help us share the show with more people, the easiest way that you can do that is by leaving a rating on whatever Podcast platform you are listening on, or you can always share an episode with a friend. Thanks again for joining us. We hope you have a very Merry Christmas and are able to join us here next year. On ideas have consequences.