Postcolonialism is a hot topic these days as many groups are eager to divide us up into oppressors and the oppressed–but do these categories help? Young and influential Zambian writer and speaker Lennox Kalifungwa says that there is much more to be considered than ethnicity, culture, and nationality. If we want true freedom and flourishing as individuals and societies, we need to promote truth, beauty, and goodness, looking beyond worldly categories that perpetuate brokenness and victimhood. There is no short-changing the effort it takes to move beyond the syncretism that is found in churches around the world. Join us as we discuss these important topics together.
Postcolonialism is a hot topic these days as many groups are eager to divide us up into oppressors and the oppressed–but do these categories help? Young and influential Zambian writer and speaker Lennox Kalifungwa says that there is much more to be considered than ethnicity, culture, and nationality. If we want true freedom and flourishing as individuals and societies, we need to promote truth, beauty, and goodness, looking beyond worldly categories that perpetuate brokenness and victimhood. There is no short-changing the effort it takes to move beyond the syncretism that is found in churches around the world. Join us as we discuss these important topics together.
And I think if we can begin to show people how the Bible applies into every single area of life, we're fundamentally showing people how big our God is in the realm over which he is King.
Luke Allen:In two ideas have consequences the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance, a show where we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the Gospel around the world to all the nations, but to also transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the Church has largely neglected this second part of her mission and today Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.
Scott Allen:Well, welcome again everybody to another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. I'm Scott Allen, I'm the president of the DNA and I'm joined today by my friends and team members Tim Williams, dwight Vogt, luke Allen. Hi guys, good to be with you all today, and we have a special guest today that I am excited to introduce Lennox Calafungua and Lennox I hope I got that last name okay correctly. That's perfect, perfect. I doubt that Nailed it.
Scott Allen:Lennox is joining us all the way from Lusaka, zambia. So, lennox, what a joy to have you with us today. Lennox is a professor at the African Christian University in Lusaka and I am looking forward to hearing more about you, lennox, because I was introduced to you through Luke and I saw you know you have a very prolific. You post a lot on social media and I was on your Twitter account and I read family man, christian worldview thinker, culture builder, creative communicator and journalist and ordinary gentleman. I thought that was great.
Scott Allen:So we have a lot in common. We are you're talking with people that are also family men and Christian worldview thinker, thinkers and, hopefully, people that are trying to build a culture that reflects the principles of the kingdom of God. So we have a lot in common in that. But, lennox, tell us a little bit more about yourself. We know that you are connected to people that some of our audience I'm sure are familiar with. Like Vodibhakum, you teach at the same university, I believe, and so we would love to just hear a little bit more about yourself, and you can go as much into depth on that as you'd like yeah.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, well, guess, first and foremost, I am a servant of the Most High King, jesus Christ, saved by his grace, privileged to live my life building his kingdom here on earth. I'm also the husband to a beautiful wife named Symbi and we have three little kids. So we've got two boys and a little girl. We've got three kids, three and under. So our house is a very busy place at the moment, but we love every single second of it. We love all the messy floors and all the crazy days we're here for it. So, yeah, it's a bit about my family.
Lennox Kalifungwa:I like to describe myself as a communicator, a Christian thinker and a culture builder those three things primarily and privilege of the Lord has gifted me with skills and opportunities to exercise those things. In relation to the African Christian University, I'm actually not a professor there, but I am still very involved there in a variety of ways and, yeah, very privileged to be a part of that project, which is, yeah, we're putting some years on it now still a very new university, but we have a very big vision to take over Zambia and Africa for Christ. So, yeah, very exciting times.
Scott Allen:Amen, Lennox. Tell us a little bit more about that vision and African Christian University. How old is the university and what's your specific connection to it?
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, so the university sort of came up as an idea, I think in 2010 or 2011.
Lennox Kalifungwa:And the idea was really just to have an institution that would impact the way people would think and just giving them a Christian worldview that would equip them to go on and be fruitful in every single area of their lives. And so really, the goal of this institution is to produce the kinds of students who go on and build cultures for the glory of Christ and that might be applied in the public square, that might be applied in a home setup, that might be in churches, wherever they go the ideas for them to be equipped to go on and glorify Christ wherever they go. That's the goal really.
Lennox Kalifungwa:So my role there, I mean, I guess over the years it's kind of it's looked very different these days, I help them with a lot of their marketing. I also mentor their students and I get privileged to talk about them on platforms like this as well. So those are the things I enjoy doing and you know, whenever they need help with anything, I try to avail myself and lend a helping hand, lend my voice, lend my thoughts and just trying to help, trying to help things get off the ground here. So, yeah, that's my role.
Scott Allen:Were you a student there.
Lennox Kalifungwa:So I was not a student there. In many ways it feels like I was just because I've been there from the beginning. I did help with some of their curriculum development. So that was exciting. But the interesting thing is my wife was a student at the African Christian University and so I suppose through her, if we take this you know oneness thing very seriously, I guess you could say I am, you know, a graduate of the African Christian University. But yeah, I didn't go there myself as a student.
Scott Allen:Gotcha, and are there students from throughout Africa or are most of the students and professors from Zambia?
Lennox Kalifungwa:Well, predominantly, most of the students would be from Zambia. We have had students from South Africa. We've had students in fact, we currently have students from Rwanda. We currently have a student from Australia and next year we're expecting an American student, and you know who else we don't know. We could get students from many other places as well, but most of the students would be Zambian. But we do get these pockets of, you know, an international student body as well.
Scott Allen:So yeah, that's wonderful. Yeah, that's wonderful. And is Vodibhakam? Is he a professor there? Is that correct? Or was he a dean, or what was his relationship? Yeah, I'm sorry, go ahead.
Lennox Kalifungwa:No, no problem. Yeah, I guess Vodis also kind of played a few different roles at the university. Right now he's really just regarded a professor of theology at the African Christian University. He was the dean of the School of Theology for a while Before then. He's played a variety of roles, but he was certainly one of those key figures that helped get ACU off the ground. Him and his family have been here since 2015. And that's just a few months before the African Christian University started its first classes in 2016. I think I actually forgot to answer that question, but when it started. So 2016 is when the classes first started, and Vodibh played a very big role in helping us get that off the ground. So it's been terrific having him and his family here. He's a good man, he's the real deal.
Scott Allen:Well, and for those of I assume most of our listeners are familiar with Vodibhakam and you know we I have had a chance to meet him briefly, although he probably wouldn't remember that it was at a homeschool conference in Phoenix, arizona. That was quite a few years ago, but more recently, you know. What we have in common is that we both wrote books that came out at a very similar time on the same topic. I was writing a book that our listeners will be familiar with why Social Justice is Not Biblical Justice and Vodibhakam wrote a terrific book called Fault Lines on a Similar Subject kind of his own experience with that, coming from his background in the Southern Baptist Church. And so anyways, if you think of it, please give him our greetings from the Disciple Nations Alliance and tell him that we appreciate his ministry very much, both here in the United States and in your country as well. So that would be great, absolutely.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Not certainly. I'll pass that along.
Scott Allen:Lennox, tell, thank you, Tell us about your. How did you connect to the, to the DNA, to the Disciple Nations Alliance?
Lennox Kalifungwa:That's a good question. So I remember, several years ago, reading a book called Discipling the Nations, and Darryl Miller was was the author of this book and I was just really intrigued at what he had to say. And you know I I grew up around a group of people my father being one of them who had this great emphasis on Christian worldview, but with a specific emphasis in what that looks like in culture, in in developing communities for Christ. And you know I was, I was reading material by Vishal Mangalwadi.
Lennox Kalifungwa:I was reading a lot of Abraham Kuiper, and so in, just, in that mix, it was just, it was just amazing to come across DNA and find out what they were doing. And then this might interest you, Scott then, a few years ago, I got acquainted with a man named Robert Osburn.
Lennox Kalifungwa:And you know he. He came out to the African Christian University to do a conference and we connected quite well and realized we thought alike in many ways and he had he had mentioned your names and and some of what you do, and I got into your podcast as well and have benefited a great deal from from DNA. So, yeah, it's, it's, it's you're, you're certainly an organization that I truly thank the Lord for. You've been a great help, even for a lot of the, the work and ministry that I do, so thank you.
Scott Allen:No, well, that that means a lot. Lennox, thanks for sharing that and thanks for filling in some of those gaps. Yeah, we're, we absolutely adore Bob Osburn and his wonderful ministry, wilberforce Academy, and encourage our listeners to check that out. And I'm so glad, yeah, that you. It sounds like you have a lot of similar influences with our dear friend Vishal and, of course, you know, going back to people like Abraham Kuiper and biblical worldview thinkers like that. So that's, that's wonderful. So you're familiar with Darrow's book Discipling Nations? I was also kind of curious if you had read we the DNA. Several years ago we wrote a book on worldview and kind of the African context, called against all hope, hope for Africa. Have you been, have you read that book? Are you familiar with that? It's a little booklet.
Lennox Kalifungwa:I'm familiar with the book. I can't say that I've actually been able to read it, but I am familiar with the book.
Scott Allen:Okay, okay, good, yeah it it. It came about through a lot of our, you know, the DNA's teaching has really taken a foothold on the continent of Africa, the biblical worldview teaching over many years, and it came out of our interaction with some really great friends from places like Kenya and Ghana and other places, and so, anyways, I hope you have a chance to check that out at some point.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, oh, certainly sounds like a fantastic resource.
Scott Allen:Yeah, go ahead, yeah, and team, team, jump in.
Dwight Vogt:I'm totally dominating, as I normally do, so just jump in no Lennox, you were saying that, that you were raised in a family with a father who followed the Lord, probably a pastor or something, and was very interested in creating Christian culture. You're reading Vishal Mungawadi and others kuiper, and you read Daryl's book dice, discipling nations. What was different or what? What did you see, what did you hear? That was a little bit tweaked. Your mind and interests, sure that happened?
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah right, that's a great question, I think I think it was just the fact that, um, this was a book that was actually providing a distinctly Christian solutions To problems that have been well documented, and I think a lot of the dialogue in terms of solutions to, for example, the problem of, of poverty Uh, you name it has been dominated by those who are fundamentally steeped Um in a secular framework, and so it's actually come across a book that had a distinctly Christian outlook on how nations can be discipled and how they can experience flourishing. Was was profound to me. I think that's really what. What stood out Um.
Lennox Kalifungwa:You know, in a continent like Africa, we are, uh, we're drowned in a variety of voices Um that are fundamentally godless, and a lot of people have bought into some of these false ideologies that only continue to perpetrate what they claim to cure, you know, and so um to actually hear a Christian perspective, um was was exciting to me, and I I fundamentally believe that Christianity, um the Christian hope and message, the Christian worldview, um really is the solution To many of Africa's problems, um, to many of the world's problems, and I think, if we can really harness, uh, what, what, what god has to say and um, extract the truth, beauty and goodness from it and seek to propagate that in the cultures he places us in, we will see a, a world um, that, um, that that is truly blessed and that is truly flourishing in the way that I think god, god desires.
Scott Allen:Yeah, you know, lennox, um, we, we absolutely, um, love your, your incredibly beautiful continent. And I think, sadly, for many Americans, when they think of Africa, um, they think of poverty and corruption. But Africa is an amazing continent. First of all, it's massive, it's just, it's just, it's so big and, uh, it's so rich in terms of its resources, um, it's, it's truly one of the the wealthiest places on earth in terms of its, its natural resources, its beauty, and then, of course, you've got this in this vibrant, growing church and, uh, uh, just incredibly gifted people. And Darrow, you know, he's often I think he heard this from Francis Schaefer, he was a disciple of Francis Schaefer, that you know if Africa Was able to kind of shed some of its animistic worldview, it would be dominating the world. It would just, you know, it's just got so much potential and I think there's just a lot of truth to that.
Luke Allen:Hi, friends, if you'd like to learn more about how you can disciple your family, schools, society or even nation, make sure to check out our flagship training resource here at the Disciple Nations Alliance, which is called the Kingdomizer Training Program. We live in a world of poverty, corruption and injustice. We all know this isn't the way it should be and help needs to come from somewhere. But who is responsible to fight poverty and bring healing to our broken communities? The government or the church? The answer is the church, but unfortunately, we have largely neglected this responsibility here at the Disciple Nations Alliance.
Luke Allen:For the last 25 years, we have worked around the world helping Christians to understand that our mission is more than saving souls for heaven. Our mission also includes being the hands and feet of God to transform the nations, to bring healing and transformation into our broken worlds, as you heard me say at the beginning of this episode. If this subject interests you and you'd like to learn more, we would highly recommend that you check out the Kingdomizer Training Program, which is available at quorumdalecom. Join over a million others who have learned how to bring biblical transformation into every corner of society by signing up today at quorumdalecom.
Scott Allen:We, we'd love to kind of get into the to the area of culture and worldview a little bit, and I think it'd be great if you, lennox, could explain to our listeners a little bit about. Well, there's a couple things I'd like to explore with you. First of all, just a little bit about, kind of the indigenous African worldview. I know that's a big question, but if you could kind of describe what that is In in kind of broad brushstrokes a little bit and how that you know, because you're familiar with the West, and how that differs from our, maybe our modern western worldview as well. But yeah, we Explain that a little bit, yeah, for our listeners, that's right.
Lennox Kalifungwa:So I guess Africa is. One of the most prevalent worldviews in Africa is that of the African traditional religion, and it is is animistic in a, in a fundamental sense, and and that's A reference to the fact that it places a great emphasis on Sort of the rule of ancestral spirits in in the affairs of man, and so there's a lot of witchcraft that's involved in a lot of that and a lot of superstition. That, I think, forms the base of how Many people think, and so people tend to be Ruled by whatever they think would appease these spirits. People tend to be rude, people tend to be ruled by fear. Essentially, it really is a, a fatalistic worldview In which people are fearful, fearful of, of upsetting, upsetting the tribe, you know, because by upsetting the tribe you might be upsetting ancestral spirits who really rule and order everything, and so that's a it's, it's a worldview that really does wreak havoc.
Lennox Kalifungwa:I'm on the African continent, because when you get a worldview that incites fear, you end up having the people that play the victim and are incapable of really building anything substantial, and that's that I think has has contributed to why Africa seems to Find flourishing, elusive, consistently and persistently. And, yeah, animism is certainly one of those idols. That Needs to be confronted, that, in my opinion, has not been confronted enough. I I thank the lord for the voices that have sought to confronted, but it's, it is one of those prevalent worldviews that really does need to be challenged With, with the truth of scripture for sure.
Scott Allen:I think it's hard for us coming from the west to to to really understand that, because you know, as you know, linux we come from kind of. I mean, all cultures ultimately kind of started with this kind of animistic worldview in the west. It went through, you know, different phases and cycles and coming out of the enlightenment, you know, in the in the 16th and the 17th 1700s, the west became secular. It became very materialistic. You know, belief in demons and witches and god Became seen as superstitious, a fairy tale, not real, um, and that became very much deeply embedded in the culture that that that we live in, that I live in, and even as a christian, you know, I I continue to recognize just how deeply Uh influenced I am by that worldview. You know, uh, obviously I, I love god, I believe in god and I believe in the spiritual realm, but I still, you know, russell, with just how deeply this kind of materialistic, secular worldviews shaped my own thinking.
Scott Allen:And so I think it's hard for us to, when you're coming from from kind of the opposite end of the spectrum, like you are in In in zambia, it's hard for us to get our heads around that. You know that Uh, that this is still very real in africa, the belief in the power of the, of the spiritual realm and of the demonic realm. Um, you mentioned that. Uh well, tell us a little bit about the history of the church in zambia I'd love to hear that too and how that's begun to change things. When did the gospel first come to, to your country?
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. I'd say it's got to be Um, perhaps a century and a half ago, um, with uh, with some missionaries, yeah and um, I think colonialism, european, specific british colonialism, is really what opened the door for a country like zambia To have had missionaries and and to hear the gospel, um, I'm sure you're you're well aware of, of david livingston. Yes and um some of his, his travels across africa, and, uh, he came up into zambia.
Lennox Kalifungwa:In fact, zambia is the place where he died and one of zambia's um, yeah, it's one of zambia's towns and cities, as is livingston named after him, and of course, he's the one who, uh, popularized the discovery of the victoria falls, one of the seven natural wonders of the world. And so you know, he, he did some mission work and um um had some, some converts from his work, and you know. So, you know, for that reason, um zambia, by and large, is very sympathetic towards christianity to say the least um, although they, they mostly have a nominal understanding of what christianity is?
Lennox Kalifungwa:um, by and large, people here like to consider themselves christians. In fact, uh, the preamble to zambia's constitution, um, literally says that zambia is a christian nation. So zambia has no problem referring to itself as a christian nation. Um, and I think that this is Part of the fruit of just having had, uh, some of those missionaries do their work here, um, from you know, a couple centuries back, but, um, even today, people still seem to be sympathetic towards christianity to a great, to a great deal, to a great amount, rather, it seems that that you know I've I've heard that um a similar story with other nations in africa when the church is growing and and it's um, people are quite proud, even at the level of, of of the nation.
Scott Allen:You know we're a christian nation. You know Um, so you have that, you know that happening, and and yet it's it's still relatively young 150 years isn't that long um ago, and uh, so you have that. At the same time, you have the, the african traditional religions that are still active as well. And um, I wanted to. You know the one of the Professors that we quote in against all hope, hope for africa, as a south african professor, uh, dr Vander paul is his name, and Uh, this is a quote that goes back about 20 years, but um, it's really strut.
Scott Allen:It stuck with me and uh, he said, um, he's, he talked about the, um, the christianization, or the, the uh, uh, the evangelization of africa, and he spoke this way. He said, because the gospel Was not brought to the people in africa as a totally new and encompassing worldview, and let me just pause there. What he was saying was that it was brought by missionaries, largely western missionaries. David livingston was from england and Um, but it was brought more as a message of salvation. You know, I would say and I'm certainly I would love to hear your thoughts on this but, um, a salvation, but not necessarily.
Scott Allen:Isn't it all encompassing worldview? Okay, and we can talk about the difference there, but, um, going on with his quote, it was not brought as an encompassing worldview which would take the place of an equally comprehensive traditional life view. The deepest core of the african culture remains untouched. The convert in africa did not see the gospel as sufficient for his whole life, and especially for the deepest issues of life. For that reason, we find a phenomenon across africa today that christians, in a time of existential need or crises such as danger, illness or death, fall back on traditional beliefs and life views. I'd love to get your thoughts on that, lennox. Um, do you, do you agree with, uh, what the professor is saying there about the, the gospel coming to africa? Did it come not as a tradition, as an all encompassing worldview, so that today you have, kind of, you know, a church and A respected church, but at the same time you still have this deeper worldview that comes out particularly in times of crisis?
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, I think. I think Dr Vanderpoles Assessments is is absolutely accurate. I think I think what we have had here by and large in Africa Is a sort of Christianity that only appeals to someone's personal salvation, the sort of Christianity that only appeals to what they might do on a Sunday morning but that doesn't actually appeal to to the rest of life. And I think, consequently, what you get is a sort of syncretism, where people think that they can have their Christianity while also buying into other worldviews and religions and.
Lennox Kalifungwa:And to kind of give you a picture of what this looks like. For that reason there are several African countries, zambia included, that Will will take their Christianity but then we'll also take their statism and socialism, their neomarksism, their post colonialism and a bunch of things and just sort of mix it up together and think that they can all sort of coexist and I think what that has done is Really just impoverished the African mind. That's to really understand who God is rightly, who they are is made in the image of God, what God's word is and what it's, what it, what it, what happens when we actually obey it and live by it.
Lennox Kalifungwa:And and and how far God's word actually goes. I think Because of the syncretism. If you really think about it, I think syncretism is one of those ideas that Fundamentally wars against the sovereignty of God. You know, if, if you believe in syncretism, you believe that there's different Ultimate authorities that govern different areas of life, but if we really understand and believe that God is sovereign, then we must understand and believe that there's no realm over which he is not Lord, over which he is not King, over which he has not spoken.
Lennox Kalifungwa:And I think if we can Begin to show people how the Bible applies into every single area of life, where fundamentally showing people how big our God is in the realm over which he is King, and I think, for as long as the people remain Ignorant of this God, ignorant of his word and the far-reaching implications of his word, I think a people will Will struggle. I think a people Will struggle with things like poverty. A people will never really fully realize freedom and flourishing, and I think those are two things that are Fundamentally missing on the African continent, and so we need that. I think we need a biblical Christianity where Christ is not just Lord and King over People's individual hearts, but he is a Lord and King over everything and I think if we can, if we can appreciate and embrace that truth, I think we will see a lot of change happening. Wherever this truth is, is believed. Amen.
Dwight Vogt:Yeah, yeah, linux. You mentioned a lot of big words there. You oh, what were they? Animism, fatalism. But then you mentioned Marxism, neocolonialism, a statism, and then you talked about the need for flourishing and freedom. I'm thinking, how do you, how, how do you pull all that together? I mean, what are the, what are the challenges in those different ideas that that are limiting the freedom and the flourishing? And how do you, how do you make sense of all that and how do you speak the truth of the gospel into that?
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, I think that's that's an excellent question. Yeah, so that's an excellent question. I think one way I sort of tie together these ideas is All of them are fundamentally atheistic, in the sense that they all attempt to dismiss God from from reality. So, for example, I mentioned post colonialism, and what you'll discover is that post colonialism was actually one of the the first Ways that post modernism was applied, at least at a political level and in African countries.
Lennox Kalifungwa:The story behind post colonial theory or post colonialism was, you know, after or just as as European colonialism was falling, in many African states, many, many African governments embraced a post colonial outlook which they believed was going to be a safeguard against colonialism repeating itself, and I think that Made people very suspicious of Western thought and In that regard, christianity was considered as something that was a part of Western thought. And so what you'll find are actually many Christian, many people in Africa who are actually opposed to Christianity because they believe it to be a Religion of oppression. Of course, that's that's not true at all, and what they ended up doing was I'm just just to cut you off.
Scott Allen:Yeah, go ahead. Oh, go ahead. I'm sorry, no.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Scott, go ahead, you can, you can well. I was just thinking.
Scott Allen:You know, africans are considering. They're considering it a, you know, a Western religion not. And yet I'm just laughing, because Africa can make a claim that Christianity is an African indigenous religion in many ways.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Oh, absolutely.
Scott Allen:I mean, it started in Israel, but it came through.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Africa.
Scott Allen:Yes and you know, st Augustine, some of our greatest Christian thinkers were Africans. You know, I don't think, I don't think people realize just how African, you know, how influenced by Africa are. You know Christianity's been anyways, oh absolutely it's, it really is.
Lennox Kalifungwa:And so I think, yeah, in Africa you do get this aversion To Christianity, to the Bible. The irony is, while people are still religious, there is still this growing suspicion about Christianity. And Under post colonialism, a lot of African states then assumed communism as their, their political and economic Ideology, that they would buy into, and that that also then gave rise to statism, which I mentioned, where now the prevalent worldview in many African countries is that the state ought to preside over everything, even even above God. And Again, I think the fundamental problem with all these ideas is statism, post colonialism, of course, the Marxism which is very tied to the post colonialism here Is.
Lennox Kalifungwa:All these ideas are an attempt to dismiss or ignore God in reality, and that that makes it harder, certainly, to want to bring up Christianity or to want to bring up the Bible.
Lennox Kalifungwa:But that also means that for as long as people remain shackled to these ideas, they will never really be free, even though the irony of some of these ideas is that they actually claim to promote and propagate freedom, but they never seem to achieve it. They, they, they, they. They always claim to that flourishing will come as a result of buying into some of these ideas, and yet Africa is poor as still, and I guess my controversial take on a lot of this is I actually think that the, the alternatives that a lot of the African countries bought into to colonialism were actually a lot more destructive than colonialism ever was, and I think what we need now to do as Christians is to start to teach people what truth is, and, and Begin by also addressing these specific worldviews and challenging them with truth and Really giving no quarter or no inch for these ideas to To coexist with Christianity. Of course, it's not a real Christianity in that sense, but we do have our work cut out for us. This is sort of the lay of the land that we're in.
Lennox Kalifungwa:That we are trying to build a very distinctly Christian culture in.
Scott Allen:Tell us a little bit more about Zambia. You know I think most of our listeners understand that many of the nations in Africa, as our own nation in the United States was, we were. You know we were a colony as well. So many African nations were colonies of European countries. What's the I don't know the history of Zambia? What were you? A colony as well, was Zambia colony?
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yes, Zambia was a was a British colony.
Lennox Kalifungwa:British that only received its, its, its independence in 1964, okay, so we're. We're just about, we're one year shy of that 60th anniversary since Since the British colony fell here in Zambia, and I guess from that perspective Zambia is still very much a a new country and A lot of the ideas I'm speaking about are still very fresh in people's minds. A lot of the political leaders who Ran Zambia ruled Zambia soon after colonialism fell. Some of them are still alive and, yeah, it's a, it's a young country, it's.
Lennox Kalifungwa:They are some amazing things about Zambia as well, though. I mean it tends to be the most peaceful country, I think, anywhere across the continent. It has democratic elections that you know Can't say they're all is perfect, but I mean to give you some perspective. I think in the last 15 years or so, zambia's had three different political parties at the helm. You can't say that about many African countries at all, and so in many ways think God has been kind to Zambia. But Zambia still has a lot of work cut out for it. A lot of its economics are fundamentally socialist and yet I think it still is one of those countries that provides a a wonderful opportunity to To build a distinctly Christian culture. I guess we're trying as a church now to Disciple this nation in understanding what it means to actually be a Christian nation so.
Scott Allen:So I was gonna ask you, after you know 1964, I believe you said when when Zambia became an independent country after British colonial rule, it did it go through a phase of of communism or Marxism? I know a lot of the African nations did. Yes it did, or was it just okay? What happened after that, you know, because that apparently didn't last, right is.
Lennox Kalifungwa:It didn't last. So Zambia had a had a dictator for about, I think, just shy of 30 years. It was about 28 to 29 years and he was. He was essentially a communist and I suppose when people start queuing up for bread consistently they get tired, and I suppose the Zambian people were just fed up and that prompted some change.
Lennox Kalifungwa:And this is now in the early 90s, so still not that not that long ago, if you think about it, that Zambia then embraced democracy, and since then, I suppose, zambia has considered itself a a democratic republic. But the interesting thing, scott, is, you know, although democracy was introduced in Zambia, I think the shaping of minds had already taken place before then, and so what democracy ended up doing was just gave people an opportunity to choose their socialism as opposed to, you know, something that would actually guarantee their freedom. And so what you find is that the populace in Zambia largely have a socialist worldview where they expect the government to rule over them in every single way. They and they have a very serious case of over dependency in this regard, and I think that some of the carry on from from communism.
Dwight Vogt:So. So, lennox, how are you, as a Christian spokesperson, advocate, whatever, how are you combating that? What does the Bible say to that?
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, I love that. I think one of the ways that we to go about it is just to flood people with the truth, to actually speak about it, Creating content where people are engaging with it, Creating the sort of environments where people can actually hear the truth. To give you one example, I get what truths yeah, go ahead. Yeah, sorry, dwight, do you wanna go ahead and ask a question?
Dwight Vogt:No, no, I was just gonna ask you give me an example what truth you know.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, sure, I think even just the truth of the fact that God is sovereign, first and foremost, the truth that God cares about how His image bears live and that God cares about freedom. God cares about flourishing, and even in sending His Son, jesus Christ, to die, it was freeing us from sin, but also freeing us to live the way that he called us to live, and so it's really articulating those kinds of truths to people everywhere we can. I guess one way I can put it. I'm sure you're familiar with the matrix of truth, beauty and goodness I've heard you speak about this before but trying to propagate that everywhere. So, while we're also trying to tell the truth everywhere we go having faithful preaching happening from pulpits, going onto college campuses and telling people the truth there, creating different multimedia content that's addressing these idols in the culture and propagating the truth there we're also trying to create and beauty everywhere we are, and sometimes it's just the smallest things. It's just having an eye for aesthetics and everything that you do keeping your desk nice and tidy, keeping your lawn mowed, making sidewalks for people to walk on. I mean, that sounds like such a small thing. I've just mentioned about sidewalks, but one of the things that you'll notice in Zambia is the lack of sidewalks. I mean, you get a few of them, but there are few and far between.
Lennox Kalifungwa:I remember being in the US a couple months ago and it was just amazing to me to see sidewalks everywhere, and I think that communicates something about how people actually value the image of God in people.
Lennox Kalifungwa:People value the dignity of those made in the image of God In America, whereas here people are still learning those things, and so, as Christians, it's just doing something as simple as that. That goes a long way in discipling this nation and what it means to follow Christ. So that's another way of doing it, but another on-site can give to that. Dwight is just, of course, trying to build distinctly Christian institutions as well. That's why the African Christian University was started, but that's also why we need strong Christian families who take the word of God seriously, where husbands are loving their wives, where fathers are raising their children in the fear and admonition of the Lord. Building those kinds of institutions, building schools that teach a Christian worldview. I think those kinds of things go a long way, and we're still in our infancy, for sure, in trying to make this possible, but at least that's. Those are the kinds of things that I think will go a long way in building a distinctly Christian culture here in Zambia and pushing back against some of this ideology.
Scott Allen:I love your example of sidewalks as something that was kind of an outgrowth of a biblical worldview. I love that because we would just take that for granted here, like of course there's sidewalks, there's always sidewalks, you always build sidewalks, right I mean?
Scott Allen:and yet you're correct to say that sometime back, when there weren't sidewalks and somebody had the idea that there ought to be, to protect people from cars and to protect innocent human lives because they're valuable, right? Well, where does that idea come from? And so much that we have all the, so much of the good things that we have in the United States we just take for granted and we don't realize they're embedded in a deeper system of belief. And yet, when you come, you have these eyes to see this in a way that we don't. And it's just, it's really refreshing to hear you say that just how practical too, how simple and basic and practical the outworking of these ideas can be.
Scott Allen:I'm super excited, lennox, to hear your vision and just your heart to see biblical truth, the truth, goodness and beauty of the kingdom of God, become the culture of Zambia, become work, its way out into cultural norms of practice as simple as sidewalks and, of course, the way we raise families and the way we even organize our societies. So, tim, you've been quiet. I would love to invite you to just jump into it. Some questions that you've got for Lennox.
Tim Williams :Yeah, absolutely, I've been taking a lot of notes as you've been talking. I've been really enjoying it. I've been thinking recently, as you were talking, about post-colonialism in our own nation and in the West. We're talking a lot about critical theory these days and even in the midst of the turmoil in Israel and Gaza. You know there's this division up into who's the oppressed category, who's the oppressor category and whoever's in the oppressed category. There's now no transcendent truth that can guide or speak to them in the way they react or respond to the oppression that they've received. So I was just listening to you talk about that whole. You know there was colonialism. We realized there were some things that weren't good about that and we reacted to that. But now, in the midst of reacting to that, we've lost transcendent truth. There's now no room for everything is just lumped up into the Bible.
Tim Williams :Christianity. I love, scott, your comments about how African Christianity is, but yeah, I don't know that that's a question, so much as it is a comment. I'll offer one more. And it's just I loved you talking about desiring to engage your culture with content, and sometimes we talk about how good unbelievers are at influencing culture.
Tim Williams :And, as you talked about the dictator who for 28, 29 years, got all of these ideas pushed into the education so that generation after generation was coming up and absorbing these unbiblical ideas. How much more so should we, as people of the light and truth and freedom that we find in Christ, you know, should we be getting that into the generations of our children and families? And along that same line, we talk sometimes about the importance of balladeers, and these are storytellers who write persuasively and compellingly and communicate profound truth and really clear ways for culture. And they're also musicians, songwriters, who take these truths again and put them in an accessible form and people begin to repeat them, they remember them and it begins to challenge their thinking. And so I just love to talk about the importance of balladeers and education in the midst of it all.
Scott Allen:So a few comments, tim, your comment about colonialism and neocolonialism. Going back to what Lennox was talking about earlier, I think it's kind of ironic because today, you know, in the West, colonialism of course is bad. You know, colonizers are oppressors, and yet I feel like we're living through a period of kind of what some people call, kind of, yeah, a new colonialism, but it doesn't go by that name. And what I mean by that, lennox, is I have some good friends in Uganda and they're alarmed at how ideas from the West, especially coming out of the sexual revolution, our gender identity issues, feminism they're being taught in public schools in Africa and it's being forcefully, but it's being intentionally or strategically embedded in public schools in Africa.
Scott Allen:These are Western, very secular, very post-modern ideas. Well, it's a form of colonialism in some ways. So it's just an irony to me that we oh yes, colonialism was bad and yet we're still engaging in colonialism. You're familiar with the United States and the culture and the United States and some of the struggles that we're dealing with right now. It sounds like you've traveled here and been here and you know American Christian leaders. Lennox, what are some of those ideas from the West that we're importing that we don't even know that's harming Africa right now. What are your thoughts on that?
Scott Allen:Yeah, I think my take on this I mean, obviously Marxism was a Western worldview and that didn't help.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, absolutely, it's caused us a great deal of trouble down here. I don't know, scott, I think my answer to this is going to be very interesting. I think, on one hand, I will affirm just the degree to which a lot of negative Western thought has made its way to Africa. Sometimes I like to say that Africa has become a laboratory of leftist propaganda, and that's true. To give you an example, something I might interest you Zambia had abortion legalized since 1972. So this is actually before.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Roe v Wade and Planned Parenthood have been in Zambia since 1972 as well, and so I mean you definitely see that influence of feminism that really has affected Zambia. And today, from estimates that we've made, we estimate that close to a million children in Zambia are murdered in the womb every single year. Zambia has a population of 20 million people, so on average, zambia actually murders about 5% of its population every single year. Just put that into perspective. And so you see that being exported. Of course, now you see the sexual revolution in the LGBTQ community that is also growing here. It's not grown to the size that it is in many Western countries, but it's still here.
Lennox Kalifungwa:So on one side I do see that Western, negative Western influence. But on the other hand as well, I think that I don't want to blame it entirely on the West, and I say that because I think sinners are found everywhere and I think sometimes the sentiment can almost sound like anything that's evil has to come from the West, and I just reject that idea. And to prove that, I think South Africa was the third or fourth country to legalize homosexual marriage anywhere around the world, and this wasn't the white apartheid, western influenced government that imposed that. This was a black government that actually legislated this and that that law continues to persist today. And so I think that what the West has simply done is perhaps given us more of a marketing tool to use to get this thing to go faster.
Lennox Kalifungwa:But I think anywhere you go around the world, you'll find people who just have this natural propensity towards sinfulness and towards evil. And on the other side of that, scott, I actually think that the West, and specifically the United States, still offers us the most formidable, righteous resistance anywhere around the world, the fact that you gentlemen in DNA exist, the fact that there are others like you in the United States who exist and you have this voice that echoes all around the world. I think there's still a lot of good that comes from the West and I applaud that. I think with everything that we see going wrong with the West, it all comes from God, doesn't it?
Scott Allen:It all comes from His Word. You know it, absolutely does.
Lennox Kalifungwa:And I think what's been unfortunate is how we think more in terms of identities, that we tend to think of ourselves in terms of where we come from and what our ethnicity looks like, even before we think of ourselves as those who are made in the image of God, and because of that, then we tend to think that, oh, what's true for the West doesn't have to be true for us, and I think that's false. I think truth has this amazing way of transcending those kinds of distinctions, and I think if we really understood that, then we wouldn't try to make it a sort of war against two earthly cultures, so to speak, when fundamentally this is really a war against truth in an effort to propagate lies. And so it's not Westernism that's the problem here, it's the fact that lies have been propagated in Africa.
Lennox Kalifungwa:And that's also true in America itself. It's not being Western, it's not being white. That's the problem. It's the fact that people have believed the lie and they hate the truth.
Scott Allen:And, yeah, we need to be aware of that, let me share something with you, lennox. I'd love to get your thoughts on this.
Scott Allen:As we've been teaching biblical worldview and the power of biblical truth to bring about change in very broken communities. I'm talking about communities all over the world, but where there's been great receptivity to our teaching has been places like Africa, the nations of Africa, latin America, asia much less so in the United States. We care and we love our own country. We want to be a part of the work of God in our own country, but there's just been incredible receptivity to this message of biblical worldview and the power of biblical truth to bring about change in our nations and our communities and places like Africa. When I've had the privilege of going to Africa, it's just been exciting for me to see people's eyes light up and I get a sense of incredible hope.
Scott Allen:The church is growing in Africa quite rapidly and I think that's hard for many people in the United States to realize because it's not growing that rapidly in the West. It's in some ways shrinking. It's growing rapidly in the West and it's very in Africa. There's a growing hunger for biblical worldview. It's almost like the reformation is coming to Africa in some ways. I don't know if that's too optimistic, but I've often thought I've had this thought and I'd love your reaction to this, lennox, that I think God's got a place for the African church in the West in the years ahead to remind us of these powerful truths and what real, genuine faith means to be lived out. That goes back to your example of just. I know the sidewalks, but we forget. We forget this inheritance that we've had, but it's newer, it's fresher in Africa, I think, and any reaction to that or your thoughts on that, am I seeing something that you agree with there in Africa?
Lennox Kalifungwa:Oh, most certainly. I really love how you've put that, scott. I think in many ways, what you get in America is still a Christian heritage that anchors a lot of America's prosperity, even to this day, and I think the reason why thinking around Christian worldview has become such a big deal in this part of the world is because I think people are quickly realizing that if Africa is going to experience any sort of flourishing, this is the way it's going to happen. In many ways, we're almost desperate for it. We need it.
Lennox Kalifungwa:This is not simply an intellectual exercise where we're sort of just tickling our minds and then we move on. We need this desperately. We need a Christian worldview. Without it, we will continue to languish in a lot of our problems, and so I think that's one reason why I think that would resonate with people here perhaps even more than it's resonating with people there, because I suppose in America, even though things, I suppose, have been declining for a little while, there's still so much prosperity that's going on there In many ways. If you think about even just the LGBTQ movement, it's a very luxury movement, like when you're well fed and you've got clothes on your back and you have your biggest social issue, right?
Lennox Kalifungwa:When that's your biggest social issue. Clearly, you've got a lot of other things going well for you In Africa. People are still trying to make ends meet, people are still trying to figure out where to get their next meal, and I think we need that Christian, biblical worldview, as really I believe it's actually our only solution. There isn't an alternative. It's truth or madness, it's Christ or chaos. Those are the choices, and we're in the chaos right now, and I think many people are starting to wake up to the fact that we need a Christian worldview. That's the only way we're going to get this going.
Lennox Kalifungwa:And just to kind of give you a very specific picture of what you pointed out, I think Reformation is growing here. Scott, my father, and Conrad in Bewe I don't know if you've ever come across his ministry before, but he's a pretty prominent preacher and they started the first Reformed churches in Zambia slightly under 40 years ago and since then, off the churches that they started, I think Zambia now has close to 70 churches across the country with this theological persuasion, and so it is growing like a wildfire. In fact, it's this growth that actually prompted a guy like Vody Borkham to move to Zambia to be a part of what's going on here.
Lennox Kalifungwa:And, by the way, when I mentioned, I do pray that Africa will be a light.
Scott Allen:Amen. When I mentioned Reformation, the way I was thinking of that, by the way, is that when the Reformation happened in Europe, the power of it was that the Bible was put into the hands of laypeople and people could read it for the first time and so they could begin to apply it, very invariably in very basic and simple ways, in the way that they lived with their spouses and raised their children and did their farming, and all of that application of biblical truth. That was brand new, because before the Reformation it was really locked up in the church. It was the Bible was in Latin, people couldn't read it and very often it was controlled by the priestly class. And then, after the Reformation, people could read the Bible and apply these principles and it led to prosperity and flourishing.
Scott Allen:And I think in Africa it's not. I guess what I'm saying is it's not so much the denomination of a Reformed church, if you will, but it's just the opening of the Bible, right, it's? In other words, this is not just a message of salvation. It certainly is, and African Christians have understood that and have responded to that. But it's an all-encompassing worldview that all of these principles, when they're lived out, the value of human life, of human dignity, of freedom, of agency, human agency and responsibility, and you name it. There's lots and lots. When those things are lived out like you say, it leads to, it just changes things in such a powerful way.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, and I think what you said is quite apt, and the King of Kings has a voice that's really powerful and I think those who hear it and those who obey it just experience the most extraordinary things. And that is what happened in the Protestant Reformation, and I believe that in several pockets of Africa this is happening as well. People are starting to hear the King's voice and obey it.
Lennox Kalifungwa:And I think what we need to be doing is making sure that the King's voice is the loudest voice in the room, the loudest voice in our homes, the loudest voice in our churches, the loudest voice in our nations, because there are other voices that are at war with the truth. And you're right there is liberation when people are able to read, understand, comprehend and live by God's word, and I want to see that happen everywhere.
Scott Allen:Wow, our hearts are beating as one, lennox, that's for sure.
Scott Allen:You know I want to share with you something that many years ago now I read a book called the New Christendom. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that book. It was written by an American social scientist. I can't remember his name right now, but it was kind of a life-changing book for me because he talked about how the church Christianity it kind of has gone through different epochs. It began, of course, in Israel and spread through North Africa and into Europe and then, of course, over to North America no-transcript. You know from North America and from Europe it's kind of spread around the world and you know into Africa and places like your own country, people like David Livingston.
Scott Allen:But he was mentioning that today the church in Africa has become in some ways just dominant in terms of just sheer numbers. I don't think Western people fully appreciate this. And he used as an example the fact that there are more Anglicans today in a country like Nigeria, just one African country, than there are in England. Right, and he also talked about. He said if you think about powerful social movements of the 20th century, you know, which movement do you think had the greatest influence on the nations of the world in the 20th century? Most people would say something like well, communism, did you know? But he says, just by sheer numbers alone, kind of Pentecostalism has more adherence than Marxism does around the world, you know. And most of those adherents are in Africa and Asia, latin America.
Scott Allen:So, anyways, it was life changing for me because I thought, you know, there's something really powerful happening in Africa right now. The church is growing, it's catching a vision for a biblical worldview. It and it's kind of off the radar. It's not people don't know it, that we don't know. This is happening, it's just happening. You know. It's not in the news, it's not in the media, and yet I just really strongly believe that God's got a plan for this rising church in Africa, globally. And, you know, I think it's an exciting time to be alive in that respect, to see what God's going to do. So I just share that with you, lennox, because I you know, I sense you'd probably agree with that I think that there's an exciting chapter that hasn't been written yet in the history of the global church and I think Africa is going to play a kind of a predominant role in that. But Lord knows, you know so.
Luke Allen:I'm sorry to know, yeah, and it's just yeah, just when you were talking about Zambia's really modern history, such a young country, especially now after its socialist stint is over, it's been, you know, 30 years or so, you said. And in your constitution you claim to be a Christian nation and I just think what an amazing opportunity that you have, that your brothers and sisters in there have to create a culture, a Christian culture, in that nation, to actually take that constitution seriously. You know, that's not, that's not the same story we have here. And yet, when we look back at our history, our founding fathers really saw that moment and they grasped it and they saw an amazing opportunity there and I would say they did a quite honorable job in instituting God's word into the framework of our government. And you're at that point now in a way.
Luke Allen:And yet, really, to go back in the conversation about 30 minutes, you were saying syncretism has had a really deep grasp in your culture.
Luke Allen:I would say the exact same thing is true here in the US.
Luke Allen:In fact, there was a study done last year by Barna Research and the cultural research center that came out stating that the most predominant worldview in America is syncretism and it's this kind of you see it in the way that we were a Christian nation, more so, and now we've quickly turned away from that. And yet a lot of people with their new worldviews whether that's postmodernism or modern animism or atheism they take the good things of the Bible still and they say, oh yeah, we want democracy, we want freedom, we want justice, and they combine them. So that's our syncretism over here, and it sounds like in Zambia it's a similar story with the gospel of salvation came to your country and yet it never was able to change the worldview in a way. So there's animism with Christianity stamped on top With that and with your young country. How are you going to try to combat that type of syncretism, People that claim to be Christians but aren't living it out? A similar problem here. I'm just curious what your thoughts are on that.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, I think my answer to that is really just one. Just going back to what the true gospel actually is, I think what you realize is that people have a very watered down idea of what the gospel is, but then also just giving people the whole counsel of God's word, I think doing more than to just punch their tickets to heaven, but actually show them what it looks like to live lives that are pleasing to the Lord here on earth. That's teaching them God's law, teaching them the value of loving God and nurturing fruitful relationships with people here on earth, and actually showing them what the word of God has to say in that regard. And so it's really just opening up the whole book, opening up God's law and really just teaching people what it says and what it means to live by it, while also setting an example of what it actually, what humble obedience to Christ really does look like in all areas of life. Showing people that we can worship our God in economics, we can worship our God in marriage, we worship our God in law, in science, and showing them, in God's word, through God's word, how what that looks like, rather than simply limiting the Bible to a John 3.16, which is an amazing passage of scripture, but I think we tend to think that those are the only passages of scripture that exist.
Lennox Kalifungwa:And I think the other thing, there Luke is just acquainting even the church itself with a more comprehensive idea of what that great commission looks like. You know, teaching them God is sovereign, baptizing them in the name of the Father, son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to do that, all that God has commanded, and so, I think, even doing the work in churches, in helping churches understand what it means to be sultan-like, giving churches a Christian worldview and equipping them to go forth and do that work of discipling the nations as well. So I suppose that's where I would begin, for sure.
Luke Allen:Amen.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Absolutely, absolutely. Yes. Yes.
Scott Allen:Yeah, we talk about the gospel and even in our conversation here we are using that word a lot and of course the gospel is central to the biblical worldview. But in the DNA, lennox, we talk a lot about Genesis, chapters one and two, and very often for many evangelicals the Bible kind of begins with Genesis three and the fall, and that sets up the need for a salvation in the gospel. But what gets neglected is the first two chapters of Genesis and that's so much where we learn the basics of a biblical worldview, the basics about God, about who we are and what our relationship to creation is to be. And so I feel like we need a Genesis one and two coalition, a Genesis one and two movement here, absolutely Not to downplay the gospel at all, but I think sometimes we put all of our emphasis on the gospel and we need to kind of put it back into that framework of the larger biblical worldview.
Scott Allen:So, lennox, it's been just a joy to have you with us and to learn more about what God is doing in your beautiful nation, and I'm so excited to hear of your vision and I'm so happy that we've been able to connect. It's just an exciting time to be a Christian and to be able to connect with brothers and sisters in Christ from all over the world through technology like this. It's amazing, so I hope we have a chance someday very soon to meet face to face and encourage each other. So yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for taking time today and may God just continue to bless you and your work at the African Christian University.
Dwight Vogt:Is there a way to connect with you? Oh, thanks, dwight.
Scott Allen:Yeah, yeah, thank you, because I know you're active on social media. What's exactly? What are ways people can begin to check out your work? Lennox, thanks.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Yeah, sure, well, I guess you could find me on Instagram or Twitter. Just look for my name Lennox California, but you can also find me on substack LennoxCalifunguasubstackcom. You'll find me there.
Scott Allen:Yeah, you are quite a writer. I didn't realize you had published so many articles on substack, and so I encourage our listeners to go and just avail themselves of your wisdom there on substack. So, yeah, thanks for doing that.
Lennox Kalifungwa:Absolutely, and thank you. This has been a real treat and a real honor. I admire you, gentlemen, I'm honored to call you brothers and just love what the Lord is doing through you as well. So just thank you so much for affording me this amazing opportunity.
Scott Allen:Well, we'd love to have you back again. So thanks, lennox, god bless you, and to all of you who are listening, thank you for tuning in to another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance.
Luke Allen:Thank you for listening to this interview with LennoxCalifungua. If you'd like to learn more about Mr Califungua, make sure to visit the episode landing page, which you'll see linked in the show notes, and you can also find out more about him on his Twitter, instagram and substack. Again, our core biblical worldview training here at the Disciple Nations Alliance is the Kingdomizer Training Program, which you heard about on today's commercial and again, that course is available at quorumdayocom and it is completely free, so make sure to check it out. The Ideas have Consequences podcast is brought to you by the Disciple Nations Alliance. To learn more about our ministry, you can find us on Instagram, facebook, twitter and YouTube, or on our website, which is disciplesnationsorg.
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