Do you want to see lives and nations thrive and flourish? If so, changing the way we think about education and changing the way we educate is essential. Education forms and transforms our thinking, character, and decision-making. This influences us individually, within our families, and even in our societies. It’s not enough to put a veneer of Christianity over our secular approaches to education, we must help students discover truth in their learning. Don’t miss this eye-opening episode with lifelong educator Dr. Elizabeth Youmans, the developer of The AMO Program and the Founder and President of Chrysalis International.
View the transcript, leave comments, and check out recommended resources on the Episode Landing Page!
Do you want to see lives and nations thrive and flourish? If so, changing the way we think about education and changing the way we educate is essential. Education forms and transforms our thinking, character, and decision-making. This influences us individually, within our families, and even in our societies. It’s not enough to put a veneer of Christianity over our secular approaches to education, we must help students discover truth in their learning. Don’t miss this eye-opening episode with lifelong educator Dr. Elizabeth Youmans, the developer of The AMO Program and the Founder and President of Chrysalis International.
View the transcript, leave comments, and check out recommended resources on the Episode Landing Page!
The truths of God's Word are eternal. They transform our thinking. As a man thinks, so he is, so it changes the way he makes decisions, which changes his character, which places him at the disposal of God to use him r ery purpose for which God created him. The influence just extends from his own individuality to his family, to friends, to community and to, ultimately, the nation. And that's how we disciple nations through education.
Luke Allen:Hi friends, welcome to Ideas have Consequences. The podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. As you'll know if you've listened to this podcast, on this show we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world, to all the nations, but our mission also includes to be the hands and feet of God, to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom, and one of the critical ways that we can do that is through education, which is today's topic. Tragically, the church has largely neglected this second part of permission and today most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.
Scott Allen:Welcome everybody to another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance, and I'm Scott Allen. I'm the president of the DNA and I'm joined today by team members Luke Allen, Dwight Voet, and our special guest today is Dr Elizabeth humans, long time friend, and so we're really thrilled that, and it's been too long since we've had you on, Elizabeth. I'm so glad you could be with us today. Oh, thank you. Let me introduce our listeners to you a little bit, Elizabeth, and then I'd love to have you just continue to share your bio a little bit. Elizabeth is a lifetime educator. She has her master's degree from Regent University in Virginia Beach and her doctor of education from Whitfield Theological Seminary. She is the president of a wonderful ministry called Chrysalis International. It's an educational ministry and, Elizabeth, I'm sure you'll tell us more about it, but it works internationally and she is working with educators and systems of education and nations around the world. Elizabeth has been a longtime friend of the Disciple Nations Alliance and those of us who are leaders of the DNA and really helped me and us all to think in a very much more deep way about the biblical worldview as it relates to education. Elizabeth, I'm so grateful for you in that help. It's been amazing.
Scott Allen:I had the privilege of co-authoring a book several years ago with Elizabeth Dr humans and another woman named Jill Thrift. The title of the book is as the Family Goes, so Goes the Nations. It's a book about marriage and family and the importance of strong and healthy marriages and families for the flourishing and the discipleship of nations, and you can learn more about that book online at Amazon or at the DNA's website. I encourage you to check that out. Elizabeth, I would like to start because your background in education is just so fascinating. I'm going to kind of try to explain it, but I would love for you to fill in the gaps.
Scott Allen:I think for most of us in the West and the United States, when we think about education, we think about our own experience going to school and what we don't realize. We're kind of fish in a fish bowl. I mean, we only know what we've experienced. But what we don't realize is, if we step back and look at the scope of kind of history, even the last 100 years of history, we're not aware of the fact that education has changed dramatically. The whole kind of worldview behind education, the whole approach to education, curriculum, training. Everything has changed dramatically and in a way that's not good right, Moving from kind of assumptions rooted in the Bible to now very secular and even postmodern kind of assumptions about reality.
Scott Allen:And Elizabeth comes out of a tradition of education that's called the principal approach, and I found this to be really fascinating because it's an approach to education, and again, this is where I want you to help Elizabeth. But they went back and they essentially said let's go back to an earlier time in American history and let's look at our founding, the generation of the founding fathers, in the late 1700s. They were incredibly educated, well educated people, and most of them actually didn't even go to school. So how? In?
Elizabeth Youmans:the world.
Scott Allen:Were they so smart and so well educated? It was a fascinating kind of question to ask and to explore what was their approach to education? And out of that question came an entire approach to education, really a rediscovering of kind of what education was that we've lost and Elizabeth was. She was kind of cut her teeth in learning that earlier approach and then when she shared it with us in the DNA many years ago, it was revolutionary and it was really divine too, I believe, elizabeth, kind of providential, because we had been going around the world teaching churches.
Scott Allen:How is it that you should be thinking about your mission, about discipling nations and challenging them to be salt and light and to really make an impact in their communities? And we would always leave them with the challenge of what will you do? What new thing can you do to begin to disciple your nations? And many of them came up with ideas related to education. We need to do something with these children in the community, and so we partnered with Elizabeth. Elizabeth helped us because we wanted them to think biblically about the kind of things they were going to do in that area of education. But, elizabeth, tell us a little bit more about yourself, about your background in education expand on what I was trying to share there a little bit about that unique approach. I want people to understand that a little bit.
Elizabeth Youmans:Well, thank you, scott. It's indeed a pleasure to be with you all today. Well, you know, I grew up in the church. It's a long story, I'll try to make short, but I grew up in the church. My parents went to church every Sunday. My father taught Sunday school. I played the organ in high school and in an Episcopal church it was like a job that I had. I taught choirs, like you know. I did all kinds of things in church until I went to the university, and that's where I lost my discipline of attending church every Sunday but still considered myself a Christian until, long story short, many years later, my neighbor led me to the Lord in a personal way, and my whole life just turned upside down At that point in time.
Elizabeth Youmans:I was married with four children, and the first thing I was interested in suddenly had never been on my radar was Christian education, and so I went on a journey of trying to find a school that taught Christian education and also included a high academic standard, because at that time there were lots of Christian schools in my area of southern Virginia we were located in the Bible Belt but not all of those schools produced what I was looking for, you know, in terms of academics and character, et cetera. And it was the Lord's providence, really, that we found a school that was just starting and it would become known as a principal approach school. Well, I didn't know anything about the principal approach, but we enrolled our youngest son because they didn't have have grade levels that went beyond fifth grade, so the rest of my children had to attend private school. So we started with our youngest son in the third grade and you know, we did all the registration and we were very impressed with what we heard. But we thought, hmm, we'll see if this develops.
Elizabeth Youmans:Really, it sounded too good to be true. And lo and behold, the first couple of weeks, the homework that my third grade son came home with, especially in history. I was shocked because the questions that he brought home for homework were questions that I had never considered about God's hand in history, and I thought what does God have to do with history? God's hand in history ended with the book of Acts, right, and so that's where my journey began and I came. I remember I came to the founder and I said is there any way that I could sit in my son's history classes?
Scott Allen:And we exactly.
Elizabeth Youmans:Well, she had an open door policy. She always said parents could come and go at any time and sit in the class. So I asked the question and she said sure, well, I don't think she thought I was going to take her up on that much. Well, I did. I attended the first semester, at least, of classes and just fell in love with what I was hearing and learning about. And she saw in me a love of learning and a teacher's heart. And so when the music teacher got ill and actually had surgery and was out of commission, she came to me and she said would you be willing to teach music because she knew I had a music background and would you be willing to teach a small literature class? Oh, I said. Oh, I'm not a teacher, you know, I have a Bachelor of Science degree. I don't have anything. She said that's perfect. We don't want teachers who have an educational background because they're not learning anything in the universities about how to teach. So she started mentoring me and little by little, by little and wouldn't you know that first little literature class she asked me to teach was about John and Abigail Adams. So it put me right into the colonial area of the nation and, of course, the founding of the new nation and all those principles that the nation was developed on. And so for me it was like a university degree in about three months. And I remember I came to my first little third grade class with a binder that was so thick and so full. They just laughed at me and I said, well, I had to study this topic and that and this and that. And so I ended up teaching a little college class to my little first through third graders that year.
Elizabeth Youmans:But it changed my life and when I found in, the founder was a mentor who taught me how to teach. Because it's one thing to understand the knowledge, the academic principles, how to work with the children in the classroom, but it's something else to understand the art of teaching and learning, because education is truly teaching and learning. You know, education is an institution, if you will, but teaching and learning is God's way for us to interact with one another in a classroom. So that was how I got started and from that point on she started having Thursday afternoon classes for us and she taught us the principle approach that way that first year. So I became part of the founding of that school and we labored for many years to get that vision up and running on practically no money but a lot of passion and a lot of joy, because we were just simply a group of parents who had a vision for our children that went beyond what we saw and heard in other Christian schools.
Scott Allen:Elizabeth, tell people a little bit more about this principle approach. How is it different from what many people have experienced in this area of teaching and education today? And just give us a little bit of a sense of just how? Because again it goes back to earlier times and looking at different approaches to education that were rooted more in the.
Elizabeth Youmans:Bible so tell us just a little bit about that yeah.
Elizabeth Youmans:Well, the principle approach, first and foremost, is the approach that the founders used, and, if you remember, the founders were the reformers who came west with their Bibles under their arm and founded a college if you'll remember Harvard just about 12 years after they landed, and they had a heart for the next generation and their basic tool of learning was the Bible and they all homeschooled their children. But there were no schools, of course, and those principles that they taught their children they had learned in Holland this is the Pilgrim story I'm talking about. They had learned in Holland from their pastor, who had taught them how to think and reason from the scripture. And so those first reformers, puritans and Pilgrims that came west and settled in New England understood the Word of God. It was very much a vital part of their life. So, first and foremost, the principle approaches rooted deeply in the Word of God, laying the word as the foundation for all instruction, thinking, writing, communicating. So the word becomes actually the focal point in a principle approach, education. And of course, the principle is simply foundational precept, a rudiment, you know. It's a basic truth and today, of course, most of us in this nation don't know what truth is and we do, as Christians understand that the Bible is our source of truth. So principles are just basically eternal truths that come from scripture, and they have that in their lives. They have that inherent power that helps us govern our thinking and reasoning, because they're sustained by the authority of God's Word.
Elizabeth Youmans:And so when we lay a subject on a biblical principle, on a truth from God's Word, then we can show the child how God is the author, first and foremost, of that subject, that he's brought that subject into reality through creation, like geography, for example. Then, as the great geographer, what is that study about? And what is the nature of God? And I think that's the second most important aspect of a principle approach to education is that when we lay every subject on scriptural truth and we teach God as the author, then really it's also a study of the nature of God. Who is God in this subject? And that's a holistic approach to teaching and learning, because the first thing we do then is start who is God in this subject?
Elizabeth Youmans:What is geography? What was God's purpose? Even the word geography, geography, god's handwriting on the earth what does that mean to a child to see? First he created the universe, and then we come to the planetary system, and then we come to this beautiful water planet and then we teach the child that God created that planet for mankind so that we would have a beautiful habitat that would sustain life. Instead of first day of school in geography, let's define geography. Okay, we're going to study geography in Virginia. Let's open our books.
Elizabeth Youmans:Very different so the first thing the child learns is that major principle. God is the author of this subject, and his nature will become understandable for me as I study this subject.
Scott Allen:I think what you're talking about, elizabeth, is something that Christians used to understand, but we've lost. When we think of our Bible now, we don't think of it as a foundation for education, as a subject like geography or math. In fact, we don't see a connection between the Bible and those subjects. We tend to think of the Bible as a spiritual book that has to do with things that are spiritual, holy living, salvation, eternal life. And now in our universities the study of the Bible is put away into a department called religion that's separated from geography and math. So those questions don't even think in the way you're talking. And I think because you live in that world, elizabeth, I think sometimes it's easy to forget how revolutionary what you're saying is.
Elizabeth Youmans:Yes, I know it's revolutionary because I see it all the time.
Scott Allen:Right.
Elizabeth Youmans:It was revolutionary in my life. That was the point when I sat in the history class. Suddenly I was hearing about the hand of God moving in history, how God raises up kings and brings them down, how God raises up kingdoms and nations and then brings them down. You know, my goodness, I never thought about that. And so it's very man centered education. As we know today and, of course, as DNA teaches, it's that secular, sacred divide.
Elizabeth Youmans:It's that Sunday and Bible study where one person, and then Monday through Saturday where someone else, and that includes our educational background. In our university teachings we don't hear this, but that's all been by intention, you know because, that's what the nation was founded on.
Elizabeth Youmans:It was found. Those first universities that were founded were founded to develop ministers of the gospel, and so they had Hebrew and Greek and logic and rhetoric, and you know, they had all the rudiments of history and literature so that they could teach the gospel. Pastors used to spend hours on their sermons from the word of God and they felt that responsibility to impart that love of God's word to their congregations, and that, you know, education was at the heart of pardon me, the Bible was at the heart of education in the founding and constitutional eras even during the time of Noah Webster.
Luke Allen:Hi, friends, if you'd like to learn more about how you can disciple your family, schools, society or even nation, make sure to check out our flagship training resource here at the Disciple Nations Alliance, which is called the Kingdomizer Training Program. We live in a world of poverty, corruption and injustice. We all know this isn't the way it should be and help needs to come from somewhere. But who is responsible to fight poverty and bring healing to our broken communities? The government or the church? The answer is the church, but unfortunately, we have largely neglected this responsibility here at the Disciple Nations Alliance.
Luke Allen:For the last 25 years, we have worked around the world helping Christians to understand that our mission is more than saving souls for heaven. Our mission also includes being the hands and feet of God to transform the nations, to bring healing and transformation into our broken worlds, as you heard me say at the beginning of this episode. If this subject interests you and you'd like to learn more, we would highly recommend that you check out the Kingdomizer Training Program, which is available at quorumdalecom. Join over a million others who have learned how to bring biblical transformation into every corner of society by signing up today at quorumdalecom.
Dwight Vogt:Let me jump in here. I want to go back a little bit because I want to underline something you've said already. We are the DNA, and you know us well, elizabeth. Our mission statement is to equip believers around the world with a biblical worldview, empowering them to break the bonds of poverty in its many forms and enable them to bring about God's intended flourishing in their lives, families, churches, nations and community. That was born in my heart way back with Darrell Miller and Scott at Food for the Hungry. But there came a point where you know so I was thinking well, biblical worldview, are these foundational principles? How does that fit in with education? And I actually went to a Christian high school and it was very biblical. And there, you know, we read the Bible, we scriptures were brought into classrooms. But it wasn't until I sat under you for five days in Peru back 20 years ago. I swear that I had a paradigm changing experience of understanding what worldview, what basic principles, had to do with education. And I want to. I want to, and here's where it is.
Dwight Vogt:You mentioned that we teach God as a source. My question was going to be okay, we understand, we can understand God in history somewhat. We can certainly see God in teaching. You know about God through literature. You pick Christian literature, but then the question is what about art? What about biology? What about geology? And you've already alluded to this what about mathematics? And, and where do we begin? And you've already said, and you've already said what we teach God as a source. Could you just unpack that a little bit more, because I think that was that that struck me that week, that we, where does God in math happen? What's the intersection? What's the intersection between God and geology, sociology? Just a little more on it.
Elizabeth Youmans:Well, in the beginning, god, right In the beginning, god created and he said let there be light. Jesus Christ, the logos, was there at creation, the word you know, he's always been the eternal word, and those words that were spoken, or the laws that hold the universe together. That's the basis of understanding mathematics and physics and all of those wonderful subjects that I know very little about. I am not a mathematician, but I understand that the laws of mathematics are the laws that hold the universe together.
Dwight Vogt:I remember you saying that math was the language of God.
Elizabeth Youmans:It is God's language.
Dwight Vogt:And I never thought of God speaking in math until that week.
Elizabeth Youmans:Right. Isn't that fascinating.
Dwight Vogt:It's never left my mind since then, so I mean that alone if you start with that in a lesson on math. I don't see a child will not go astray, you know.
Elizabeth Youmans:And God is the great mathematician. That's why we can't comprehend him. He is so infinite and so beyond our understanding. And yet some of the greatest individuals in education have been these powerful physicists and people like Einstein, who understand a little bit about these laws that hold the universe together. And today, as they continue to learn more and more about DNA and the intricacy of just one tiny cell in our body and all the tiny little machines that operate in there and if one little machine fails then we get sick, I mean, it's just so phenomenal to understand that God is so far beyond our understanding and yet he inspires us every day as we continue seeking.
Dwight Vogt:All right, I know Luke has other questions, so we've got to move on. But, I want to encourage you, elizabeth. I read some articles that you wrote back in those early days from Stony Brook I think it was Stony Brook School, stonebridge, stonebridge School, okay, and you were the co author or the author, and there was one on math. I took time to actually read those articles. You should reprint those and put those out because they were so fundamental and we can move on now.
Scott Allen:But that's fine If I can Luke, if I could squeeze in just one more comment before your question, because we're talking about Dwight, your kind of experience of having your worldview rocked through Elizabeth, and let me just share too with you a couple of things that really changed my life, elizabeth, as you introduced us to kind of a really biblical, god centered approach to education. The other one was, as you said, the power of words and how God speaks to us using words and language, and Jesus is the divine logos, the word, right, yes. And so a biblical approach takes words really seriously, and I remember you emphasizing that to me. There was the first time I'd ever heard this. And so you said, to learn a subject like, let's say you're studying about politics, for example, well, politics or political science is about authority.
Scott Allen:And so you start with what does the Bible teach us about that word, authority Exactly? And let's start with that right. That word is in the scriptures, that concept is in the scriptures. Let's start by doing a word study. That's right. And so you taught us how to do word studies from the Bible, and it was revolutionary. When you start with the words in the scriptures, any word like freedom or you name it, you know and you use the tools like you introduced us to you know the 1868 dictionary of the American language from North Webster, because it's a dictionary that's intentionally written from. You know biblical definitions and there's a whole approach that just digs into the meaning of the words, based in a biblical definition. And I just thought I found that I have not. I keep doing that, I keep using that in my life.
Scott Allen:It's been revolutionary and it's a powerful method, yeah, and I'll just share one other, and that was that this they call it the notebook approach, and I love this so much too.
Scott Allen:It's that when you want to learn a subject as a learner, as a student and this was what our founding fathers did you just open up a notebook, right, and you'd write across the top of the first page the subject that you want to study and you just start taking notes about everything you're learning. And it could be today, you could do it on a laptop or your phone or whatever it is, but you, but you just start learning and writing down everything that you're learning and keeping a record. Yes, and it's a very much a it's an approach that I mean today we don't think of learning in this way. It's a very student centered, student directed approach. It's today. It's the students are these kind of blank sheets of paper and the teachers dump things into their mind and they're very passive. This is a very active approach that says you know you, god has created you to be a learner. Anyways, I don't know if you want to comment on those things.
Elizabeth Youmans:Those were life changing things for me, elizabeth. Yeah, oh well, indeed, thank you, but indeed that's the point. Today, we produce consumers, but God desires for us to be independent learners and thinkers. You know the book. We need the vocabulary in order to think. When I think about what our children spend a lot of time doing these days is looking at a screen and, you know, drawing a line to the matching answer or whatever, and I think to myself they don't even understand the vocabulary. You know, god did not leave us tweet or what are some of the other things you can tell I don't even use them that the children are using today. He left us a book with a very high level of vocabulary in it and many, many, many truths. You know, that's what he gave us as our book of guidance, our book of instruction, and today our children can't think because they don't have the vocabulary with which to think, because that's what it takes to be a thinker we have to have a vocabulary, and so we want our children, in a Christian environment, to have a biblical vocabulary. What did God mean when he used the word serve or the word love or any word in the scripture, because it's gonna be probably a very different definition than what we're going to hear today in the modern classroom. So that's why we spend time going back to that 1828 dictionary. Because no, webster, who was an American founding father, had a heart and a love for words, because he understood, after the constitutional era, if he didn't write a dictionary with the definitions of words the way the new Americans were using them, that over time, generation after generation using the old English dictionary, that we would fall back into thinking as a monarchy did and it was really has the language of self-government in it constitutional government rather than a kingdom or a monarchy. And so he knew the power of words and he understood, because as a Christian he understood why it was important, not only when he wrote the dictionary, to go back to the root meanings of words, but to go into the scripture and find out how did God use this word. That's why that dictionary today is such a powerful tool.
Elizabeth Youmans:So when our children sit down with their binders, we do want them to do research. We also want them to define their vocabulary. But then we wanna give them questions that they're going to have to reason with the revolution, revelation of truth into their own lives. How do I relate this. What does this have to do with me? My life? I'm a teenager or I'm a young adult. What does this have to do with me and how can I use this truth in my own life?
Elizabeth Youmans:And then, of course, they had a written record, so that once you have a written record of your research and your thinking and reasoning, then you can turn and teach another person. And that's what we found in the school even that first year that our students, little, even the little third and fourth graders, would go home in the summer. We had three or four of them. They opened schools in their little homes for their neighborhood friends. They got out their binders for literature, for geography or whatever with history, and they gathered a group of little neighborhood children and they taught them from their binders.
Elizabeth Youmans:We were blown away. That's how valuable the notebook approach is, because it's a reflective method, it's in the hand of the child, it's in his writing with his ideas. But it's based on biblical truth and that's what makes it such a powerful tool. And this goes back to not just the founding of America, but it goes back to the days when God said to Moses write what I'm teaching you in a book and recite it to Joshua. That's very powerful, because that's exactly what the notebook method is it's write it, rehearse it and teach another.
Scott Allen:And Elizabeth. It's so rooted in kind of a biblical understanding of what it means to be a human being that we're not just these passive, evolved blobs of protoplasm, but we're actually made in God's image with the capacity to think and to reason Exactly, and you have a really powerful little way of reminding, through the principal approach, the your approach. What does it mean to be human, especially as we're looking at our young students? Can you remind us that little? We use it all the time in the DNA.
Elizabeth Youmans:Oh, every child is a promise.
Scott Allen:Yes.
Elizabeth Youmans:With a name, a passion, a story and a place. In his story. There are no ordinary children.
Scott Allen:Yeah, I love that so much because it's very much the whole approach is rooted in. What does it mean to truly be a human being? Luke, you've been so patient. Sorry, Luke, had a bunch of questions.
Dwight Vogt:Well.
Scott Allen:I was gonna. I told Luke and Dwight before the call. I said I'm not gonna ask very much and I'm just dominating this, so it's not bad.
Elizabeth Youmans:Well, what I wanted to do because I mentioned Webster was to. I wanted first of all to define what he's, how he's defined a child. Can I do that? It's just, it won't take but a second. A child, he says, of course, is the immediate progeny of parents, and I might say that his definition of parents would be a father and a mother.
Elizabeth Youmans:Number two here it is One created in the image of God, unfixed in principles. That's why we have to teach principle by principles and weak in knowledge. We also have to present knowledge in our classrooms. Weak in judgment, weak in experience, one young in grace, so we have to teach them manners and habits. We have to teach them how to use their gift of discernment, because if they're not in the word, they're probably not discerning right and wrong adequately. We have to give them experiences. We can't just lecture all day at them. They have to practice. And we have to teach by principles, because children are unweak in principles and so that definition really carries in it a whole foundational philosophy of how, what needs to happen in the classroom.
Dwight Vogt:But the paradox of that and was when you taught that, yes, that's the child, they're weak, weak, weak, weak, weak, but you have an extremely high view of the child.
Elizabeth Youmans:Oh yes.
Dwight Vogt:Which is such a wonderful contrast, because I think people today think, well, let's empower this child there and they'll let them have their rights and they're gonna rule the world as a child. Well, that's not gonna work. But they have a low view of that child. They have a low view of what it means to be made in the image of God or in the no view at all. So that was an interesting contrast.
Elizabeth Youmans:I don't know if you can explain that, but Well, it has to do basically with how they think. We didn't even define education. Education has to do with enlightening the mind, but then also working with the character of the child. And enlightening the mind has to do with teaching the child how to think and reason with truth. So it's very important for us to remember that. Well, even the root of education, a dukeo you know, those are two Latin words A means out of, like an exit a, and dukeo means to lead, and I always think this is so revolutionary to think about.
Elizabeth Youmans:If education has to do with leading out, of, what is it that we're leading out of a child, or what are we leading him out of? It could be looked at both ways. Well, some say we're leading him out of darkness into light. But I say we want to lead out of that child his full potential in Christ, and see, that's what we're born with. I knew you in your mother's womb, you know, I knew every day of your life, and God gives to each one of us the abilities, the talents, the giftings that he wants us to have for the calling he has on our life. And that's a parent's and a teacher's responsibility to lead out of that child all that God has placed within him so he can fulfill God's calling in his place of history. It's so powerful.
Scott Allen:I always contrast these ideas, Elizabeth, with what I'm hearing in the news today and just the worldview that's so present in our time. And one of the things I'm hearing today is that in this age of artificial intelligence, that we're gonna have a whole bunch of people that are gonna add no value to our economy. They're just gonna have to be fed and clothed and kind of taken care of with the universal fixed income because they have no purpose anymore. And you hear that from our leaders, our dominant world leaders.
Scott Allen:Oh yes, and how different that is from what you're talking about, about the potential, the radical, powerful potential of every single human being.
Elizabeth Youmans:Well, that's why we've got to be proactive. It's a cosmic battle we're in, and the battleground is the mind. It's truth versus the lie, it's reality versus illusion. Are we gonna be free or are we gonna be held captive by Satan, who has has in his agenda to take us all down with this lie? And so the battleground is the mind, and that's why education is so important, and I have to say that I, you know, I don't hear much of this message coming from the pulpits of America. In fact, you know, I heard a statistic the other day that just absolutely overwhelmed me. The US Department of Education says 54% of US adults have a literacy rate below sixth grade. It's, it's unbelievable.
Scott Allen:No, I mean, and what that means for the future of our nation. You know we can't function, you just can't function. People can't function themselves, much less as a society. They can't think, people can't read, they can't think no, and kind of that's almost intentional, elizabeth.
Elizabeth Youmans:It is intentional, it's. It comes from the pit of hell.
Scott Allen:You don't want people to think right, We've come from the pit of hell. It does. No, it's easy to control people when they can't think.
Elizabeth Youmans:Exactly. That's the whole point.
Scott Allen:Yeah, exactly.
Elizabeth Youmans:And isn't that what the Frankfurt school is all about? Yeah, remember, remember that. I'll never forget it. When I read it I thought I've gotta be seeing double here. Their view was as they discussed this back in the 1960s we just wanted to get Americans to believe these are kind of the Neo Marxist kind of group that kind of gave rise to our modern worldview, our kind of worldview. Oh, yes, yeah, go ahead, Elizabeth. If we can get Americans to believe snow is black, we've been successful.
Scott Allen:Yeah, it's very or-willing.
Elizabeth Youmans:We're almost there. We're almost there.
Scott Allen:Right, yeah.
Elizabeth Youmans:And the last thing they want I mean the first thing they keep trying to do is to take parents out of the picture.
Luke Allen:And.
Elizabeth Youmans:I'm so thankful to see that homeschooling is growing in this nation, but they need our help. They need some basic philosophy so they feel encouraged and empowered to just use their scriptures along with what they understand about various subjects. It's not that hard to do.
Scott Allen:Yeah, go ahead.
Elizabeth Youmans:If I can do it, anyone can.
Scott Allen:I got a very late start.
Luke Allen:Yeah, I'm just trying to keep up with you guys. My mind is spinning right now. I'm still stuck on the math, as God's the language of God. Yeah, that's so good.
Luke Allen:As far as I know from just basic research, the modern education system like we're just talking about was started in Prussia. Is that right? At least a lot of it came from Prussia in the late 18, early 19th century, and that was I mean, that was, let's see, that was pre-Industrial Revolution. So really the zeitgeist of that time was to create citizens that were obedient and organized and could operate at high capacity and so forth, and therefore Prussia created this education system, which was, I believe, mandatory. Everyone had to go through it and what they got was a lot of obedient citizens who were very dependent on the government and, unfortunately, because of that, were uncritical thinkers.
Luke Allen:And I thought that was interesting because that's kind of the birthplace of the modern education system we see in a lot of schools today. Of course, the Frankfurt School didn't come long after that in Germany. So, anyways, my question, I guess, is, with that being the framework that a lot of people think of when they think of education, how do we teach children to, instead of that, to become independent, critical thinking, lifelong learners or, like you said, to fulfill God's calling. How can we create those independent citizens?
Elizabeth Youmans:Well, we have to get them out of the secular educational setting.
Luke Allen:Okay.
Elizabeth Youmans:It's not gonna happen there. I lived in Germany. It's not gonna happen there. We have to get them out of the secular setting and we have to teach Christian parents and teachers principles, how to think and reason themselves. When we started our program, what I realized immediately? Same thing that happened to me. In order to be a teacher, I've got to understand these principles right, because if you take a Christian out of the secular setting, they're just going to do what they've always done, which is teach secular philosophy, secular ideas, and then put some scripture over there, teaching and call it Christian.
Elizabeth Youmans:We have to start with the adult generation and train them and teach them how to do this and, as I say, it doesn't take that much. What it takes is commitment. And what the lie today is oh, that's gonna take so much time and I don't have that much time, and I just give me a curriculum that I can use quick. It's just something I can. Is there something on the computer I can use? So the children I can just put my children in front of the computer.
Elizabeth Youmans:No, this is teaching and learning. That means we need you to become a teacher in your child's life. You need to model this in their lives. You need to be a vital part of what they're learning and you need to be in relationship with them in this subject. So look, it takes educating the adult generation, and our churches are a great place to offer these courses. But churches pastors are so concerned about education taking too much of their time, taking too much of their finances, that they tend to look away. Oh, I don't want to school, that's just a big headache. Oh, don't ask me to do that. And so we need to involve our pastors, give them the vision of what it's going to take to turn this next generation for Christ and for the culture. If we don't do something soon, the culture is just sliding into the pit. It's going so fast now.
Scott Allen:It is. It's very we were. There's a lot of momentum behind that shift that's happening right now and I agree with you. Education is so central to turning it around, and I do. I just wanna make a comment about your. You're mentioning the churches and I do think there is right now. It seems like in the United States and in the West there is a move away from public schools because of what you're saying. I mean, it's kind of at a simple level. Well, there's a couple of reasons for it. Number one they're just failing in basic things like reading but then of course, they're also indoctrinating in.
Scott Allen:You know this Gender, yeah yeah, gender ideology and some of this, like really-.
Elizabeth Youmans:Critical race theory.
Scott Allen:Sexual stuff right. So, people are leaving the schools. I think a lot of times churches are forming schools now, but a lot of it is reactive and I know my daughter, jenna, who's a teacher you've kind of wrecked her, by the way. She works in Christian schools and what she sees typically is that these schools, as good as they are, they they're. We don't want the kids in a secular environment, we want them in a Christian school. But they haven't put thought into what that looks like and so consequently, they use secular curriculum largely.
Scott Allen:You know, and they've got to pass the state, run tests, you know, and so that kind of forces them into a particular track. But they're Christians and pray and do these things that are kind of Christian things and they don't teach the crazy sexual stuff. But they haven't gone at all to the deep level that you're talking about. Like, let's build this building from the foundation up, based on biblical truth. That hasn't happened and I just want to encourage if you're involved in Christian education you're listening to this podcast that's what you need to do. It's not just enough to kind of take the secular model and Christianize it. That's not gonna help. You've got to build from the foundation up. And if you don't know what I'm talking about, you need to connect to Elizabeth and you need to learn from her what that means.
Elizabeth Youmans:Well, you know. You know, scott, there is an organization here in this country. If we're talking to Americans, you know, the foundation for American Christian education is the home of the principal approach and if you're interested in America's Christian history in form of government, it's a heavy emphasis on that. But they teach the principal approach and they teach you how to use these tools so that you can use them in your home schooling environment, and so I really recommend that they contact face, its acronym for foundation for American Christian education in Chesapeake, virginia.
Scott Allen:That's great, elizabeth. Yeah, thanks for that Before we. Well, luke, do you? I don't. I wanna you probably have a follow-up question there too.
Luke Allen:It sounds like such a challenge to almost reframe our understanding of education entirely in order to pursue this approach. Yeah, I guess, just practically. Where do Christian schools, where do other schools, where do homeschools start when they want to break away from the secular curriculum that they've been dependent on so long, or even Christian education that's very similar, you know in its format and start anew? You said we need to build off the Bible. How do we practically do that, and that sounds like such a challenge. It's almost like you have to rewrite all of the curriculum you're using for your students. No, you don't.
Elizabeth Youmans:What you need is an 1828 dictionary, and that dictionary is actually free online. You need a binder, you need some paper, you need the textbooks that you've been asked to use and what you need to do is realize that if you have a textbook for example, any science book, except for the philosophy of Darwinism or materialism, that's in it, but most of the books that you have are not going to be correct, but most of the facts about that science are going to be correct. What you need to do is to lay that book on a biblical foundation. So who is God? The biologist, for example. That's where you want to start. You want to lay a biblical foundation before you get into the facts. Find your vocabulary for the children and you want them to start writing the principles down and thinking about them and reasoning with them. That's where it starts. And see, as my mentor used to say, don't worry, Elizabeth, just so we keep you a couple days ahead of the children, it's okay.
Elizabeth Youmans:You don't have all the answers yet, but you will. After you've taught here for a year, you will have more answers. So you're ahead of the children, right?
Scott Allen:I just want to underscore what you're saying, Elizabeth, because I think Luke's question is a great question, but I love what you're saying. I think when we think of education, we think, oh my gosh, it's this huge area there's all these big books and curriculum and the teachers have gone through years of training to be teachers.
Scott Allen:And how can I do that right? How in the world? I can't redo that. And what you're saying is just, you just have to think differently about education. And this isn't really complicated, actually, it's quite simple and the tools are quite simple. But you have to start with a very different place in terms of your thinking, and anyone can do this. If you have a Bible, you have that dictionary.
Elizabeth Youmans:That's right.
Scott Allen:And a kind of a particular approach. You can do this and in fact, elizabeth, you are doing this. Maybe we could just talk a little bit about this. You are doing this in nations all over the world with very uneducated, simple people. Talk a little bit about that.
Elizabeth Youmans:Well, you know what has been so wonderful. We have a curriculum for children. In fact we're still writing, but it's only in various subjects. It's not a complete academic curriculum. But what I've seen now over the 20 years it's been in the nations long enough to see fruit. Finally, you know, it takes a long time to see fruit in education because it's like planting seeds. These little principles are seeds and they have to take root, you know, and they have to start growing and be fertilized.
Elizabeth Youmans:But we have pastors now who, when they heard my five-day basic training, went home and said to their wives we have several of them in Mexico that I'm very familiar with we've got to take our children out of the state school and start homeschooling. You know their poor wives were what, huh, what? And then they said we better take this training because I don't know what you're talking about. So sure enough they did these two pastors independent of one another. And I'll just give you one example with one of the pastors. He was so taken by the principles that he learned that he started getting involved in the education. So he helped his wife on school and then he decided these principles were so powerful because they had changed their whole family dynamic, their whole way of even discipling their own children and even disciplining them, you know. And so he said well, it's really working well in my family. I'm gonna do this in my church. And so he started. He handed a binder out to all his congregation for the church services and he hands out a page every Sunday with his major principle and his word defined and then he preaches from the word of God and they're supposed to be deriving principles and thoughts and applications as he's preaching. And it has changed that whole church. He said his parents have come alive. They're homeschooling their children. Now people want him to come and you know, other churches want him to come and tell them what he's done and why it's changed his life.
Elizabeth Youmans:And I just thought, and one of the other pastors left his church in fact he was the academic dean in a Presbyterian Seminary. He left and he went and founded his own church and he's calling it the AMO Learning Center and he's got a whole program for the community besides his church services. And so that's how these little seeds take root. When we met the publishing house in Columbia, the CLC publishing house they're a big publishing house all over the world. Actually, the president in Columbia. He and his wife took the training and they started using our little AMO curriculum at home. And it's so changed his life. He was so taken by it that now of course they're carrying our books and he carries the message of AMO with him wherever he goes. And he was just promoted to president of the whole South American CLC board.
Elizabeth Youmans:So he's got great influence. And so this is what we expect. The truths of God's word are eternal. They transform our thinking. As a man thinks, so he is, so it changes the way he makes decisions, which changes his character, which places him at the disposal of God to use him for the very purpose for which God created him. And the influence just extends from his own individuality to his family, to friends, to community and to, ultimately, the nation. And that's how we disciple nations through education.
Dwight Vogt:Go ahead, dwight. Yeah, I just wanna summarize what I'm hearing, and that is that, basically, you say change your assumptions about education. Change your assumptions about what is a child, what does it mean to learn, what does it mean to self-govern, what is the role of God in education? And I'm not sure people think at that level what are their assumptions about education, about children, about learning? Here's an example that stuck with me. Again, I'm gonna share it because I've never forgot it your assumptions about teaching history.
Dwight Vogt:And you started by saying, well, god is the God of history. And so you said, let's. History is a timeline, history is God acting in his, you know, over time. And you put a timeline up on the wall that went around the room, I remember, up on the top of the ceiling, and at the beginning you said this is eternity past. And I'm thinking eternity past. Well, yeah, that's part of history. And then you went all the way to the other side of the room and you put eternity future. And I'm going well, yeah, that's heaven and beyond and the millennium and everything else.
Dwight Vogt:And then you started mapping out how does God working through history in the world? And you picked up pieces and ideas and things that were happening, and always it was what is this telling us about? How God's hand was at work in the world, and how has Satan been working in the world and the evil that he's done, and how does God counteract that? And then you boiled down to your one place today and you said this is you and me. And then the question is what is my place in history? And so you took this huge subject and you said by the way, you, the individual, dwight Boat, little Dwight, you have a role to play in God's history from eternity past, eternity future. And it was just that perspective. I've never forgotten it. It changed my view of history ever since, and I'm thinking that's all you need to do Just change children's view of history and they will learn history different from them.
Scott Allen:I agree Well, and Dwight, what Elizabeth said about discipling nations, that that's a profound paradigm shift and when you think differently in that way, it has ripple effects that will affect your community and nation. Like you said, elizabeth, it takes some time.
Scott Allen:I was with a young man recently from, I believe he was from somewhere in West Africa Maybe it was the Ivory Coast and he had gotten ahold of the DNA's teaching. And I asked him what was it that motivated you to kind of want to go through our training? And he said I've always been bothered by this question why is it that we in West Africa are so poor and you in Europe and the United States, you're so wealthy? Are you better people? Are you smarter people? And I you know, and so you know. And of course, what he learned was that, no, we've been exposed to the Bible and a biblical approach to education that has ripple effects in generations and has led to wealth and prosperity, and that that can happen for his nation as well. Right, you know, it's not that we're, but it starts with the things you're talking about, right?
Scott Allen:now there's probably nothing more important than education and just reframing it, rethinking it, that's powerful In a biblical way. Well, that's what you're teaching Elizabeth, so it's very powerful.
Elizabeth Youmans:Well, you know, one of my first interactions with Food for the Hungry was in Ethiopia. Thomas Stoker invited me to Ethiopia, as 20 years ago I think, because he first met me very early on and I thought I was going to be seeing women coming because I thought, you know, it was an education seminar. And, sure enough, most of them were men, very frail, thin looking men, and I was told they were pastors that had walked into the city, some of them four days to get there, because they heard Christian education was the topic, and they didn't talk to me all week long. And finally, I think I got to one of these principles and stewardship maybe. And I said to them you know, ethiopia, I'm told, is one of the poorest countries in the world. Of course you don't have to, you know, look far to know that. And I said but you've got oil and gas under your soil. You could be very wealthy nation. And they just looked at me like what's she talking about? Because at that time they were still plowing their fields with an ox and a little handheld plow. And at the end of the week I said, well, I've done all the talking. Now I need you to talk back to me. What are you taking away from this week?
Elizabeth Youmans:And finally, he was, I'll never forget, he was the president of the Evangelical Pastors Association for Ethiopia raised his hand and he said I would like to be able to apply these things, but I don't know where to start. How do I start? And I said to him well, you need to go home and start in your home. He had children, he already shared, he had children, and with your children and your wife, you need to have a Bible study and open the word and see what God is going to be teaching you. He said well, you know, we hardly ever see our children. They're usually in bed by the time we get home. In fact, we ask our wives keep them. Keep them in bed, because we don't have time for our children. And I thought this was so interesting. And he said of course, you know, our women weren't, weren't very visible either. He said that would be, that would be strange. And I said well, please try it. Well then his next question was where will I start? And I said well, why don't you teach your children about little Samuel in the Old Testament? And so he was writing all those things down and I wondered to myself I wonder whatever happened in.
Elizabeth Youmans:I came back the next year at Thomas's invitation, for another training and this man came running down the aisle before we started. Remember me, remember me, I'm, you know, pastor so-and-so. And it was the same gentleman, the president of the evangelical pastors association. I went home and I did just what you told me and he had this big smile on his face and I said what happened. He said it changed our lives and he said now I can teach from the pulpit of how to get started and where to go to find truth. I never forgot that and I thought he was the president of the evangelical pastors association and he had no comprehension at all. So, yes, there are many, many stories of God's hand in history, and without the scripture, the logos, it's all a deception, isn't it?
Scott Allen:Elizabeth, tell us just a little bit more about Ammo, what it is that you're doing in the ministry itself and how people might benefit from that.
Elizabeth Youmans:Well, you know, I got my inspiration for Ammo from Dwight Vaude Many, many years ago.
Dwight Vogt:You're welcome, Elizabeth.
Scott Allen:He's waiting for that royalty check.
Luke Allen:Yeah, I really am.
Scott Allen:Actually, I'm still waiting.
Elizabeth Youmans:This is not a get rich quick program.
Elizabeth Youmans:I can tell you it's all for the glory of God, of course. Encouraged to write a program based on principles for the children around the world, god literally called me out of face. I worked with face, of course, after I helped, found the high school vision at Stumbridge and put that those guides together for them and God just simply propelled me into the nations was supernatural. I had done a 40 day fast and through that fast God really spoke to my heart. So when I met food for the hungry and DNA, I was inspired to write another curriculum and I thought I've been writing curriculum for 25 years, you know, lord, please. And he said what do you think I've been preparing you for all these years? And so I took the challenge and we put a program together that it's got a to vein, a reach. One is to the adult generation and one is for the children, and it's a five day training, like I did in Peru, that teaches these principles in the morning and then in the afternoon how to make it practical through the curriculum that we've developed. And the curriculum is basically the power of story. It's classic literature with coordinated fine arts and crafts which the children just love, and at the end of that we have a wonderful play or readings program that the children get up and make a presentation based on the classic they've learned, or they have a play that they perform for their parents and community leaders and they have the artwork that they've created throughout the program etc. And have a meal. So it's very delightful and the children always remember those wonderful celebrations at the end. And then, instead of just teaching children about the Bible and all those Bible stories they've heard over and over and over and over and over, and Sunday school, we have the children reading the scripture. For reasoning with truth they need the revelation. Without the revelation from the word there is no enlightenment. So we have the children actually reading the scripture and something happens when they pick up their own Bible. They read, they read aloud, they read silently, and then we reason with them to the place where they get that aha, I'm beginning to understand. And they write. They're defining words, they're writing and then they have a written record of what they've learned.
Elizabeth Youmans:And that program has made a huge difference. And the teachers tell me first and foremost in them, because teachers generally are afraid to teach the word of God. So we've provided in the lesson plan all that background. They need to feel confident to answer questions the children might ask. And that's what I found in working with people that most teachers Sunday school teachers even are very hesitant to actually teach the word of God. They can teach a Bible story, but to actually have a child read the scripture then they're worried about oh what if he asked me this and I don't know.
Elizabeth Youmans:So we've laid our lesson plans out so that we teach the principle, we give them undergirding scriptures, we teach the nature of God in that principle and then we give them background for the actual lesson. And we found that that Bible reading program has done a lot. And then we have a few providential history units and, like Dwight said, we start with the timeline and we walk through the scripture showing God's hand through his covenants, because we want children to know God's a promise maker but he's also a promise keeper. And I just finished Old Testament prophets, which ended up being a very large volume and very profound study for me, and that's been our latest addition to our providential history curriculum.
Scott Allen:Elizabeth. How many people are working with you? How many teachers are a part of your program, or trainers around the world? Give people an idea of the scope of your work.
Elizabeth Youmans:Well, we've trained. We have a second level training, which takes almost a year. It's nine, nine months in class with us through Zoom every other week, and then it's a practicum where they actually teach with us and we evaluate their teaching. So it takes about a year. We've actually trained in that course almost 200 people. Not all of them are training now, but most of them are still using the program and that has taken us a long time.
Elizabeth Youmans:As you know, every other year we're offering the course, so I can't begin to tell you how many people are actually using the curriculum, because we have the training in Spanish now on video, and so people are taking it by video and we have mentors that walk with all those participants. And I think that's the secret, as you know having someone who's willing to answer your questions and walk with you through all these huge principles. When you know you sit there and listen to a teaching and you've got five billion questions, who's going to help me really understand this? So we assign our trainers as mentors. That's been the key to our success with the video course.
Scott Allen:And is this something that people, let's say I'm just starting homeschooling my children here in the United States. Is this something that I can also take advantage of, some of the training that you're doing in the materials?
Elizabeth Youmans:Materials for sure, because they are available on our website, AlmaProgramcom. You can purchase our materials here in the United States.
Scott Allen:And it's AmmoProgramcom. That's the website. Okay, and is there information there to just learn more about it? Yes, definitely, we have a little video too.
Elizabeth Youmans:that's wonderful, I don't know if you've seen the video. It's only three minutes.
Scott Allen:Okay, great.
Elizabeth Youmans:It works really well.
Scott Allen:AmmoProgramcom. That's where you want to go if you're interested in what Elizabeth's talking about reframing your understanding of education in a very distinctly biblical approach. And that takes time for us because we have developed a whole different approach to education. We've just grown up with it. It's part of our thing. We have to kind of be deprogrammed a little bit, don't we guys? Yeah, dwight and Luke, as we wrap up any other opportunity for final questions.
Luke Allen:I have so much to think about. I really enjoyed this. Dr Yeumans, thank you for your time. There's a lot to think about here. I'm a young parent, so I'm starting to think in this direction myself and learned a lot today, excited to go and share with my wife. So thank you for your time.
Elizabeth Youmans:Well, thank you.
Dwight Vogt:Luke, always good to hear from you, elizabeth.
Elizabeth Youmans:Oh, thank you, Dwight and thank you Scott. You know I was sharing with Luke before we started. You know I've got four children of my own and watched them have their children and raise their children, and my youngest son that I talked about enrolling in Stonebridge that first year, who has the advantage of having the principal approach education. He and his wife when they, when she got pregnant with their first baby, they decided to read the word of God, allowed to their baby in the womb every night and every morning. I think he said they did the book of John at night and the book of Proverbs in the morning. And those children today are amazing children. Not that my other grandchildren are wonderful and amazing, but these children were born with a sensitivity for truth and the word. So I just want to put that out there for all new parents that start reading the word of God to your babies in the womb and don't stop reading the word.
Scott Allen:Great Elizabeth. Well, thank you so much for the way that you've impacted each one of our lives, and I agree with Dwight you know you have had a profound impact on my life, elizabeth, and we've used your ideas and curriculum and training ideas in our own home school and they've had just such a powerful influence on my own children. So thank you for that, elizabeth.
Dwight Vogt:Yeah, oh, no, it's yeah, and I just want to encourage everyone who's listening this.
Scott Allen:You know, elizabeth is somebody you need to learn from and and her approach. You need to take time. Go to Ammo, go to Chrysalis, go to the website that we mentioned, take advantage of her learning, her resources and and you'll begin. Your life will change, because it's a very it will reframe your thinking on education into a very biblical framework.
Scott Allen:So, elizabeth, thank you for all you're doing for God's kingdom and if you also feel inclined to support financially the ministry that Elizabeth is doing. It is bearing fruit around the world. There's probably nothing more important to disciple nations or to raise nations out of poverty and brokenness and what Elizabeth is doing, or the DNA as well, but I'm a big fan of your work, elizabeth, so, yeah, feel free to make some donations or contributions as well.
Elizabeth Youmans:That would be wonderful. Keep that going so thank you so much. Well, you know, I love DNA, I love walking with you and the whole concept, and it's changed my life as well, knowing you all. So thank you so much for your investment.
Scott Allen:All right, all right. Well, listen everybody. Thank you for tuning into another episode of. Ideas have consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance.
Luke Allen:Thank you for listening to this interview with Dr Elizabeth humans. If you'd like to learn more about Dr humans, the Ammo program in Chrysalis International, make sure to check out this episodes landing page, which is linked in the show notes. On that page you can also find other helpful resources, including books as goes the family, so goes the nation by Scott Allen, Elizabeth humans and Jill Thrift, and Darrell Miller's recent book Don't Let Schooling Stand in the Way of Education, as well as more information about the principal approach to education from the foundation for American Christian education. Our core biblical worldview training here at the Disciple Nations Alliance is the Kingdomizer training program, which you heard about in today's commercial and again, that course is available at corumdalecom and is completely free, so make sure to check it out.
Luke Allen:Ideas have consequences is brought to you by the Disciple Nations Alliance. To learn more about our ministry, you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter and YouTube, or on our website, which is DiscipleNationsorg. If you'd like to help us share this show with more people, the easiest way that you can do that is by sharing an episode with a friend or by leaving a rating and review on Apple podcast or wherever you're listening. Thanks again for joining us and we hope you're able to join us here next week on Ideas have Consequences.