How should a biblical worldview inform our cultural engagement in this time of social crisis? Today's honored guest, Dr. Wayne Grudem, is Research Professor of Theology and Biblical Studies at Phoenix Seminary and author of more than 20 books, including Systematic Theology. Join us as we hear Dr. Wayne Grudem's heart for today's world. Our discussion covers everything from the recent attack on Israel, the 2024 election, a theology of work, politics in the pulpit, and the question of whether Christians should move from one state to another due to political alignment. How can and should Christians practically engage in the areas God has placed us at this time in history? There are obvious pitfalls to avoid when engaging in our cultures, but we often overcompensate in avoidance and neglect our call to influence culture. We hope you enjoy this practical, raw, honest episode as much as we did.
Go deeper with the transcript and recommended resources on the Episode Landing Page!
How should a biblical worldview inform our cultural engagement in this time of social crisis? Today's honored guest, Dr. Wayne Grudem, is Research Professor of Theology and Biblical Studies at Phoenix Seminary and author of more than 20 books, including Systematic Theology. Join us as we hear Dr. Wayne Grudem's heart for today's world. Our discussion covers everything from the recent attack on Israel, the 2024 election, a theology of work, politics in the pulpit, and the question of whether Christians should move from one state to another due to political alignment. How can and should Christians practically engage in the areas God has placed us at this time in history? There are obvious pitfalls to avoid when engaging in our cultures, but we often overcompensate in avoidance and neglect our call to influence culture. We hope you enjoy this practical, raw, honest episode as much as we did.
Go deeper with the transcript and recommended resources on the Episode Landing Page!
So God's purpose for us is not only to be born again and go to heaven when we die. It's to do good work on earth while we are living here, and that means to love our neighbors ourselves. Now, if I love my neighbors myself, I want good for my neighbor. I want good healthcare systems. I want good schools. I want up-building, art and music. I want good business practices. I want freedom of speech, freedom of assembly there's freedoms that are guaranteed in our constitution. I think there are biblical reasons for having those. I want separation of powers and government to prevent people from gaining excessive power. In other words, I think the gospel comes and gives personal salvation, and then the whole council of God and scripture begins to transform all of culture in every aspect, in every corner of life, and I don't see why we're trained from doing that.
Luke Allen:Hi friends, welcome back to a very special episode of Ideas have Consequences, the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. As you know if you've listened to this podcast, on this show we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world, to all the nations, but our mission also includes to be the hands and feet of God, to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, the goodness and the beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the Church has largely neglected this second part of permission and today most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create a Christ-honoring culture that reflects the character of the living God.
Scott Allen:Welcome again, everybody, to another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. I'm Scott Allen, I'm the president of the DNA and I'm joined today by dear friends and colleagues, dwight Vogt, luke Allen, and we are really blessed and privileged today to have a very special guest with us, dr Wayne Grudem. Many of you know, of course, dr Grudem. He's one of the most influential voices in the Church and evangelicalism. He is a research professor of theology and biblical studies at Phoenix University in Arizona.
Scott Allen:Dr Grudem is a graduate of Harvard, where he has his undergraduate degree. His MDiv is from Westminster Seminary in Philadelphia and his doctorate is from Cambridge University. He has served as the president of the Evangelical Theological Society and was very involved in oversight of the committee that developed the English standard version of the Bible In 2008,. He's written many books and those books have been incredibly helpful to me and Dwight and the DNA team, including one book in particular that we had the privilege of collaborating a bit on the Poverty of Nations, a Sustainable Solution with Dr Barry Asmuth, and Politics According to the Bible and, of course, his famous systematic theology, which is a go-to for me and for many people that study God's words. So, dr Grudem, what an honor. Thank you so much for being with us today.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Thank you, Scott. I'm just going to correct what I hardly in my life have ever corrected something you said it's Phoenix Seminary, not Phoenix University.
Scott Allen:Oh, that's my mistake. Yeah, okay.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:I don't want to say people to Phoenix.
Scott Allen:University thinking they're going to Phoenix.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Right.
Scott Allen:No, that was a big mistake. Phoenix. Seminary, thank you, and that's where you're at this morning, I take it. Is that correct, are you?
Dr. Wayne Grudem:in my home.
Scott Allen:You're at your home. Yeah, I have an office here.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Well actually, my wife and I sold our house and moved into a retirement home, sold our house and moved into a retirement community just about two miles from the seminary, and so that's where I am this morning.
Scott Allen:Well, great, great to have you with us, and I just want to start by thanking you again, dr Grudem, for the encouragement and the blessing that you've been to the DNA, to me in particular. When I was writing my most recent book, why Social Justice is Not Biblical Justice, there was a time towards the end where it was hard to find a publisher and I just wasn't sure how it was going to get out and God providentially, wayne, you put it on your heart to give me a call and encouraged me. Words can't express how much encouragement it was. You helped me in so many ways with endorsements and anyways, I think I really, without your help and support, I don't think that book would have gotten out, and so I really. I just want to express my gratitude to you for that.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:That was a privilege to do that and I think you wrote a needed book in a very important time.
Scott Allen:Well, thank you. I mean, it's all God, isn't it? So he gets all the glory. Wayne, how are you? I just was curious, if you don't mind. I know you've been struggling with Parkinson's and many of us love you and are praying for you. Any update on your health that we can be praying for?
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Yeah, well, I tell people that the major problem with my health is a disease called AGE.
Scott Allen:I think there's a joke here. Okay, that's a piece of it.
Luke Allen:I got it. I got it. I knew that it was no.
Scott Allen:AGE okay, I get it. I'm a little slower than the team. Yes, Well, it's something I think we all struggle with. Except maybe. Luke, yeah, is still coming.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Yeah, but anyway I'm 75. And in good health we're 75 overall, amen. So I'm high blood pressure, but that's treated with medication, so I'm thankful for that. Yeah, great. You know I read that Franklin Roosevelt, when he was president, died essentially of high blood pressure. Nobody can cure it. Now it was 1945, I believe about that time, and today we have medicines for it, so I'm still alive at 75.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:And then a couple other things I have. I was diagnosed with prostate cancer a few months ago and they found it early and it hadn't spread. So I've been receiving radiation therapy and I've completed 39 out of 45 sessions. It's Monday to Friday, five days a week for nine weeks. I'm looking forward to being done with that, but it's been painless and very small side effect. The other thing is the challenges. I've had Parkinson's disease for now eight years since diagnosis about seven and a half, almost eight and a medication for that. It slows me down but it's not debilitating and I thank God for that. Otherwise I feel well and I'm eager to keep on writing. I've recently completed a revision of a commentary on First Peter that I published in 1986, I believe that's in the Tindall New Testament series and that is in process of being published next year, and then I revised the book Christian Ethics, and that revised edition should come out next year as well.
Scott Allen:Oh, I can't wait. I can't wait for both of those. That's so exciting. Yeah, what a great time in the world for a commentary, a fresh commentary on First Peter.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:That's just so yeah, yeah well good to have enjoyed it, be able to do that. Now I do not have. I have not committed to another project, but I'm thinking of something non-controversial like the differences between Democrats and Republicans.
Scott Allen:Ha ha ha a follow up to to yeah exactly right.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:I think there are some biblical principles that come to play in terms of national security, border security, national debt and the government expenditures. Government control of our lives versus freedom. Upholding the faithfulness to the constitution yes, which is a governing document, and a few other things, and I'm joined with the idea of a small editorial called Scott. Do you mind if I get into a political issue right here?
Scott Allen:No, no, I wanted to hear you know kind of what's top of mind for you right now, dr Grudemann. And what are you? Working on. I mean, this is exactly where I wanted to go.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Well, later this week I'm going to try to work on a short, a big piece or editorial piece called there is only one candidate who can make America great again by dropping out.
Scott Allen:And you got to finish that. I'm hanging on the edge of my seat.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Well, the title is supposed to be intriguing, okay.
Scott Allen:So you're going to, you're going to, you're going to wait. Let us wait until it's out.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Well, no, it doesn't. Does it make sense to you that there's only one candidate who can make America great again by dropping out?
Dwight Vogt:Yeah, totally, but it's interesting because you were campaigning. Well, not campaigning, but you spoke very supportive.
Scott Allen:Are you talking about Donald Trump dropping out, Dr Grudemann?
Dwight Vogt:Yes.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:I'm so okay, but the fact that you didn't pick up on that. Well, I think it's because of what Dwight said.
Scott Allen:I mean because yeah, you have been, you know, in the, in the in the 2016 election, you yeah in the 2020, I believe you were supportive.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Yes, both times because the alternatives were worse and and this okay, maybe I'll choose a different title like Donald Trump should drop out for the sake of the elimination?
Scott Allen:No, don't do it for my sake. I'm just kind of clueless. So that, yeah, Dwight got it.
Dwight Vogt:I liked the title.
Scott Allen:I liked the title I was thinking it could be Ron DeSantis, right, because some people are saying that you know he should drop out because we need to kind of rally behind the front runner. So I guess that's maybe what I was thinking. But but I, yeah, go ahead, I would love to do you mind just sharing that, just sharing a few of your thoughts on that?
Dr. Wayne Grudem:I would love to hear you know, because well, um, if Donald Trump stays in the race, the campaign throughout the election season is going to be about Donald Trump. It's going to be about his legal problems and it'll be about the accusations of sexual misconduct with former women formerly in his life. It'll be about his, his character, his personality, his carelessness with facts, his refusal to accept the results of the 2016 election. Anyway, the whole election season is going to be Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump. If he drops out, the election will be about issues, and on issues on the economy, Republicans win.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:The majority of the population wants lower prices, lower taxes, less inflation, lower energy prices, stronger defense, less government regulation, bringing in the FBI and the CIA from their political roles in the Judicial Justice Department, and an issue after issue. I think the Republicans win and Ron DeSantis is in first place among the other Republicans, but any of the remaining Republican candidates would, I think, make a good president. So if Trump drops out, we get a Republican president. If Trump stays in the race, I think he'll almost certainly lose because, since he left office, his refusal to accept the results of the election and some doubt that's been cast on his reputation through the legal problems he has and some of the things. I keep meeting, people like myself who voted for Trump twice but would be very lucky to support him in the future.
Scott Allen:Interesting. Ok, you heard it here first. We're breaking news here, I think Exactly.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Here's the other way I look at it, the nation is roughly 40% of people who always vote for Democrats, 40% who always vote for Republicans and 20% in the middle, and you have to win the middle order to win. And I don't think Donald Trump could win the middle.
Scott Allen:But just to push back a little bit. It seems to me that I've been following this as well. He's not being heard in the polls right now, as all of these criminal accusations have been brought against him and they've been trying to tie him up in court. In fact, it seems to be getting a bit stronger, not just against his primary challengers, but in the general, against Biden, if polls are to be believed, which would push back against your theory. What are your thoughts on that, dr Grudem?
Dr. Wayne Grudem:I think Democrats have wrong policies in many areas, but they're not dumb and there's no way in the world they're going to nominate. Biden as a candidate? Oh OK. So you prepare for opposition, not from your weakest candidate, who's Joe Biden, but from the strongest candidate, who'd be either Gavin Newsom, governor of California, or Michelle Obama. Yeah, I agree.
Scott Allen:Both be stronger.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:And I don't talk to people who say I'd like to vote for Trump a third time.
Scott Allen:OK interesting.
Scott Allen:I too voted for him both in both previous elections, but I think my resolve to continue to support him goes along with the fact that he's under such withering attack. I mean, unlike we've been three times impeached. We've never had indictments against a former president in the way that I mean he would have over 700 years behind bars if all of these things were, if he was found. So I think some people are. There's something about that that makes me think they're really worried about him being president and, frankly, it causes me to want to support him even more, and I don't think I'm alone in that. But I certainly respect what you're saying, dr Grudam. I know Luke. With my son we talk about this, and he's probably more where you're at, and Dwight too, for that matter I'm the odd man out on that one.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:So Well, this is the time to change your mind.
Scott Allen:Well, listening to you today maybe is what will do it so.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:I think it's a terrible precedent for American government that the government has been politicized and taken and taken one side in the political situation, the situation of the United States. But the way to correct that is to win an election. It's not just to give them a sympathy vote. And whoever wins the election, if it's Republican who wins, I would expect on day one she would issue a pardon for President Trump, which is richly deserved. He's done great amount of good for the nation and this political prosecution, politicizing of the judiciary, is terrible and, as a result, the way to bring an end to that is to reject Democrats at every level of the national and state and local elections, because the Democrat party has condoned this and not stopped it, and I think they have a lot to account for.
Scott Allen:Dr Grudem on that. If I may, I still hear I would say the majority of pastors that I talked to on this issue would say something along the lines of we need to be engaged in politics but not in a partisan way, and it would be wrong for us, as church leaders, to endorse Republicans or Democrats. And I struggle with that because I think it has everything to do with what they stand for. I often think if you were in Nazi Germany, or if you were in Germany before the Nazis took power in the 1930s, would you say well, we need to be involved in politics, but we shouldn't be partisans and we need to be neutral between the Nazis and whoever the other side of that was at that time.
Scott Allen:I don't think you would think that way. You would think it depends on what they believe and what they're promoting, and I've often struggled with this and you're so contrary to this. What would you say to pastors like that? Because I do think that's the dominant kind of view. Guys, would you agree, we can be involved in politics, we should vote, but let's not be partisans about it. Why would you disagree with that, dr Grudemann?
Dr. Wayne Grudem:I think we have to. A simplistic answer isn't going to solve the question, solve the problem. The issues are multiple and they're complex. But I don't think there are two right sides on whether we should close the border of the United States and welcome people by a legal process, not through illegal, just unrestrained open borders. I don't think there are two sides on that. I don't think there are two good sides, two morally right sides. On whether abortion should be allowed up to the day of birth, I don't think there are two sides on whether it's preferable to have more freedom and less government control of our lives or less freedom and more government control of the daily aspects of our lives. I think freedom is better than servitude, that's right.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:So it depends on the issue. I do think that the national debt is becoming an issue. We're paying more in interest for the national debt now than we spend on defense. I think defense of the nation is becoming an issue on which the two parties and the leaders in the two parties disagree. Because, in a shorthand summary, it seems to me that people who support the Democrat candidates think that everybody in the world is susceptible to reason and can be, and the solution to conflict is talk and more talk until we come to agreement without recognizing that there is evil in the world, it can only be stopped by force.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Hitler was an example of that in World War II. He wasn't to be stopped by negotiation or appeasement. He could only be stopped by superior military power. I think Russia and the Chinese Communist Party and the leader in North Korea and the leaders in Iran following that category, cuba as well that they are not just morally equivalent to the United States and Great Britain and Europe and Australia and Canada. They are morally evil leaders. They're running those countries and they will only be restrained from their evil by superior force. We had this attack against Israel by Hamas coming out of Gaza over the weekend with over, probably when the total reached over a thousand Israelis killed and over 100 taken captive as hostages, who will be brutally mistreated. There's no moral equivalence between that and Israel attempting to defend itself, and yet there are people in the one of the two parties who are defending the attacks if I understand it correctly.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:So I think there are a number of issues where pastors should have freedom to speak on the issues and say this is the view of one party and this is the view of the other party. And the.
Scott Allen:Bible informs those views. Right, it's, you know. I mean, that's the point, isn't it?
Dr. Wayne Grudem:And so it's not at the end of the day about being a partisan.
Scott Allen:It's about being faithful to the scriptures and the political arena, isn't it? Yes?
Dr. Wayne Grudem:And if people say to me I'm not going to preach about political issues, I say well, you're going to preach on Romans 13, that talks about the purpose of government. Are you going to preach about 1st Peter 2, talks about the purpose of government. Are you going to preach about Proverbs and Psalms that talk about good and evil rulers? What about the history of Israel and the good and evil kings that came. So, there's a lot in scripture about government.
Scott Allen:Yes, there is, and you know you're getting into where we want to go in our conversation, dr Grudem, which is we live in times of such chaos and crisis, as you've been alluding to, and so there's a lot of talk in the church about how do Christians respond, and it leads to lots of questions about cultural engagement, and I want to kind of get your thoughts on that, just to help us clarify our own thinking. This is obviously a part of our ministry, I do. You did bring up just before we go there, though, you brought up the horrific attack that happened over the weekend by Hamas in Gaza against Israel, and Iran apparently.
Scott Allen:And Iran, of course, is behind this right. As I understand it, Hamas is a bit of a puppet state, you know. For Iran, yeah, and I appreciate that you brought that up. It's front of mind. For you know, this is the first podcast we've had since this horrific event and I just thought it would be, you know, great to get your thoughts. How should Christians, how should Christians, think and pray about this? What advice would you give us?
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Well, I know that Christians have different views on how God views Israel today. I think that the establishment of the nation of Israel in 1948 is part of God's plan that is outlined in Romans 9 to 11, especially chapter 11, that eventually there's coming a time when all Israel will be saved. I don't think that makes every single person, but large, large numbers of Jewish people will turn to Christ and trust in Jesus as their Messiah, and I think that the establishment of the nation of Israel in 1948 was God's one step, a major step in God's preparation for that to happen and the opposition by the Arab countries against Israel is, I think.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:I think there's a spiritual dimension behind it which is opposition to God's plan for the people of Israel. But I don't think God is going to let the Jewish people be destroyed. He's going to bring them by the millions into the kingdom of God through Jesus Christ. So I'm looking forward to that. Israel is our most trusted and most valuable ally, national ally, in the world, and they're standing alone in the Middle East for democracy. They've got a robust democracy and the government is very sympathetic to the principles that the American nation was founded on. So I think we're right to befriend Israel and stand by Israel and support it by supplying weapons and other means if necessary.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Yeah, thanks for sharing those thoughts, I think it's a terrible dilemma that the Israeli leaders face right now, with militants in Gaza holding over 100 Israelis and some Americans hostage, and they shelter their weapons in the homes of civilians. So how do you attack a situation like that? It's very difficult.
Scott Allen:It's so hard, it's yeah and it's evil. I appreciate you using that word earlier. There is evil. We're not talking, just about bad ideas or differences of opinion. We're talking about personal evil.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:They were door to door, breaking into the house and killing entire families. These are not enemy combatants that they're killing their families with husband, wife and children, and they went door to door and killed them household after household, and took some of them hostage, even children. That's evil and it must be seen as such. There's no more real equivalents, yeah, I agree.
Scott Allen:Well, I wanted to, if you don't mind. Just I'd love to get your thoughts on again. I think a pressing issue for many Christians today is just how, how do we respond to the chaos and these various crises in our culture? And there's just a lively debate, you hear it around, this debate in certain circles, with Christian nationalism, which is, you know, kind of how should Christians be, what should our posture be towards the nation or the culture, if you will? You know, some argue quite strongly that, you know, any kind of engagement in cultural issues is a distraction and it's not part of our mission or our calling as the church. And yet, as you said, you know, there's no. You know, if you just look at passages of the Bible, there's social, political and cultural implications for so many. Right, it's not just a personal, devotional kind of text, is it, you know? And yet we still struggle with that.
Scott Allen:In fact, I was going to kind of kickstart some of these questions off with a quote that we, we.
Scott Allen:Well, it wasn't just a quote, I mean, it was a quote, but it caused quite a stir on social media a few months ago, and it's it's from a really a dear friend who's been on this podcast and somebody we deeply respect, owen Strahan, theologian, and he said something you know in a humorous way, but he said the Great Commission does not teach the wholesale Christianization and discipleship of quote unquote nations, as if Kenya will be baptized soon or Denmark is under church discipline or Singapore is having a thriving, daily quiet time.
Scott Allen:And then he goes on and he says presently the gospel, or you could say the mission of the church maybe is to save people from the nations. So and I thought that last part kind of captured it well that our mission as the church, as the followers of Jesus Christ, is to save Christians from the nations but not to influence the nations, if you will. He uses the phrase whole-sale Christianization or discipleship of nations. Now we are the Disciple Nations Alliance, so, and I think earlier generations of Christians did talk about Christian nations, or the Christianization of nations, if you will. But I do think what he's putting his finger on, dr Rudim, is quite it's a very common way of thinking and I just really wanted to get your thoughts and response to this.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:A couple of things. Throughout history, since the founding of the church in the first century, christians have had influence on government for good. Just as Christians have influenced the way people do business, about honesty and integrity and concern for quality and the well-being of the customer. Just as Christians have influenced the art world, with the great artists of many centuries having Christian influence I think of handle with music and Messiah and so much, and Bach's great Christian music and so much. Christians have influenced art, music, business, education, building schools, promoting literacy for girls as well as boys, because it's important for both boys and girls where moms and dads eventually be able to read the Bible and teach their children.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:There are some other examples in my politics. According to the Bible book, in 1829, under Christian influence, in India the practice of burning widows alive with their dead husbands was outlawed. Now, is that influencing culture for good? Yes, was it a good, morally good influence? Yes, of course. In 1912, the practice of binding horrible practice of binding young women's feet in China was outlawed under Christian influence. And, of course, the great campaigns of William Wilberforce leading to the outlawing of the slave trade in 1807, and the outlawing of slavery itself in the British Empire in 1833, just before Wilberforce died.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:That's influencing culture for good, and in my own lifetime I remember Martin Luther King Baptist pastor influencing culture by preaching from the Bible that segregation and racial discrimination as it was carried out in the United States was morally wrong and needed to be changed. So make disciples of all nations. Now Owen Strand is a good friend and I need to ask him what he meant by that. It's a humorous quote Singapore having a good devotional life or something like that. But make disciples of all nations. I think we would say that the more that is fulfilled by large numbers of people becoming Christians in the nation, the more the teachings of the Bible as a whole are going to influence people's lives. Yes, we are to save people out of the nation, to my proclamation proclaiming the gospel, but once people are born again, then what are they supposed to do?
Dwight Vogt:I'm assuming, dr Grudem, that you've been around a while and there was a time in the conservative seminary where it was very conservative and I'm wondering how you? There was a pushback in the seminary from my perspective for that and you're giving historical references to why it shouldn't be. But what's your approach theologically? I mean, do you push back with verses or passages?
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Well, I look at. How did you evolve that? Well, the way Ephesians 2, 8, and 9 by grace you're saved through faith, and that's not of yourselves, it's the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. That's the great passage on justification by faith alone. That talks about how people become Christians. But what is the next verse? For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. So God's purpose for us is not only to be born again and go to heaven when we die. It's to do good works on earth while we are living here, and that means to love our neighbors ourselves.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Now, if I love my neighbors myself, I want good for my neighbor. I want good healthcare systems. I want good schools. I want wholesome and helpful and I'm trying to think of a good word Upbuilding, art and music. I want good business practices, I think I mentioned. I want good schools and good education. I want freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, those freedoms that are guaranteed in our constitution. I think there are biblical reasons for having those. I want separation of powers and government to prevent people from gaining excessive power. In other words, I think the gospel comes and gives personal salvation, and then the whole council of God and scripture begins to transform all of culture in every aspect, in every corner of life, and I don't see why we're trained from doing that.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Now there's a question of individual calling and emphasis. Some people are Well okay. I had breakfast the other day with a friend who runs the soundboard at our church. Now you could say, why has he spent so much time on soundboard work? Shouldn't he be saving people out of nations? No, I mean, god has called him to be good at soundboard. Others, their diversity of calling is what I want to say. So I think not everybody is called to spend a lot of time on political issues, but some are. And God gave me a heart of interest in politics since age. Well, since age 12, when I helped campaign for Nixon against Kennedy in 1960. Really, as a 12-year-old could do.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:but I was in a little tiny town under 300 people in northern Wisconsin and it was dominantly Catholic. All my boyhood friends were Catholic, almost all of them.
Dwight Vogt:We lost that one.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:We lost and I felt awful. I cried and my Catholic friends were laughing and rejoicing and I was sad. I still in touch with one of them, my former next-door neighbor who's just been a friend for a long time. So let me summarize People. God calls different people to different things. I think he's called. I'll give Mike Pence as an example. I think he called Mike Pence to be governor. I think it was Indiana.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Indiana yeah, and to do that as a Christian, and I think he did a good job as governor and as vice president. Now I'm not going to criticize him for spending 99% of his working work hours on politics. Is that making sense to me?
Dwight Vogt:I don't think everybody's Well, I just love it because so many times we evangelicals take our verses and we just separate them and we grab them in isolation and in this case we don't even bother to read the next two verses and it's so clear the way you said it.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:That's really powerful.
Dwight Vogt:It's just so clear. It's like why are we saved? We are saved because we're his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works.
Scott Allen:And loving your neighbor has cultural implications. I think another thing that when we talk about cultural engagement, a lot of people think right away of politics and government. But I like what you're saying to Dr Grudem when you talked about your friend who does work on the sound board or any other thing. It has a lot more to do with. It has a lot to do with all of these different callings and good works that God has called us to do, and certainly politics and being in a position of governance is one of those, but it's not exclusively that, is it.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:No, I mean, you could say, god hasn't called us to be good football coaches.
Scott Allen:Well, yes, he has.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:He's called some Christians to be good Christian football coaches to transform the culture of football. The Roman. Empire, gladiators were put to death for losing their gladiatorial contests, but that practice was outlawed under Christian influence in the Roman Empire in 374 AD. It was a horrible practice, but it humanized the athletic competition. So we don't put the death of losers today.
Scott Allen:I do. Just on that. I want to thank you for bringing up just the enormous contribution that Jesus has had through his church on shaping nations over the hundreds of years. You listed several examples. We could go on and on, and our dear friend Vishal Mangalwadi has written many books on this, including the book that changed your world. I recommend that to everybody. I think Christians just aren't aware. I think partly it's because we live in a culture where the current cultural climate diminishes Christian influence and looks down on it. It's all very negative but as a result, Christians themselves don't know the contribution that God has made, I would say, through the church in nations for the poor good.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:And the people who don't want Christian influence on society misrepresent what we're trying to do.
Scott Allen:That's right.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:And always portray some extreme fringe person who wants to force everybody to contribute to churches or attend a church service or something.
Scott Allen:Yes, we're always put on the defensive around those kinds of examples.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:The first thing we have to say is we support freedom of religion. It's a wonderful advance in human understanding of government that we can protect freedom of religion and freedom for Hindu temple or Buddhist temple or Islamic mosque to be built in my neighborhood if they want to buy the land and build. It protects my freedom to build a church in the neighborhood as well. And so that took several centuries for Christians to realize that. But now we have the opportunity to say we want to influence government for good. But we should never, ever support an idea that we should compel religion and compel adherence to Christianity, and the reason for that is that genuine faith cannot be forced. We know that as parents, we can bring our children to church and send them to youth group and even a Christian college. But the decision to trust in Christ as Lord and Savior is something they have to decide themselves, and if parents cannot force their children to become genuine Christians, surely government can't successfully force anyone to become a genuine Christian Faith?
Scott Allen:cannot be compelled Just on that. There's a deeper reason. There isn't. That isn't there for religious liberty or any kind of freedom, and that is the fact that God made us in the very first instance to be free people with choices. And not all worldviews support that idea, dr Grudem, as you know right, I mean Most don't, most don't have a place for human freedom. So it's just, it's a very uniquely biblical idea actually, that God created us with this capacity for choice and respects that. He respects our choices and we need to respect the choices of others.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:You know, I'm not saying I'm thoroughly reformed. So I think, behind that affirmation of willing choices and freedom of choice, we have God's sovereign providential working to influence the direction of our choices. But we don't. We're not aware of that and what we are aware of is we're not forced by some angel coming and making a sign in the dotted line. We are confronted with the claims of the gospel and we have we choose what we most want to choose. I'm free to do that and I affirm that as a reformed or a Calvinistic theologian.
Scott Allen:Well, I, you know, I certainly have a high view of the sovereignty of God. I don't believe that he's asleep or that he's surprised by choices we make. I believe he's controlling all things by the power of his word. You know, and he knows the beginning and the end. But these two ideas this is another issue that I think Christians struggle with there seems to be often contradictions. How can you have, you know, free human agency and God's sovereignty, but it just we need ten more hours to talk about that.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:I mean how deep you can go in this, but it still seems the Bible affirms both you know and so what we want to affirm now is what you started with Scott, and that is God gives us the ability to make willing choices.
Scott Allen:We decide what we most want to choose and we choose that, and he holds us accountable for these choices, it seems to me as well.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Absolutely yes.
Scott Allen:Absolutely Back to, if I could for a second, back to Dr Strand's quote there, his tweet. I think he's really talking about the Great Commission, right? He's talking about discipling nations, and what does that entail?
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Teaching them to observe how they're recommended to you, yeah.
Scott Allen:And he says, god, you know, discipling nations is saving Christians, saving people out of the nations, but not influencing nations, as if nations somehow become Christians. I mean, that's his tongue in cheek, I think, comment, but I would love you know. I know we teach a lot on the on just Jesus' Great Commission, matthew 25. And I think a lot of Christians struggle with the fact that the word nations was used by Jesus in that, you know, in that Great Commission, make disciples of all nations. You know, it seems to me that a lot of Christians would be much more comfortable if Jesus said make the disciples of all people or individuals, and just didn't even use the word nations. What are your thoughts on that? What you know is it is it. Is it a misreading of the Great Commission to think that we, that this is a commission not just to see people save we certainly want that but to actually have influence in nations? I've often, even myself, struggled with this. What are your thoughts on this? Is it?
Dr. Wayne Grudem:I think it means don't limit your message to Jews.
Scott Allen:Don't limit your message to Jews. Okay, that is, you go to all nations, all nations, not just the Jewish nation.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:And essentially what you say, scott, make disciples of all nations. I think that means disciples out of all nations. I think that I'm happy with the statement to that effect. But I mean. My hope for the future of the world with regard to aggression by communist, by communist, by communist China, is that the hundred million Christians in China will have an influence on government such that they take it over and being under function as a genuine, genuine democracy. And I I I'd need more than a few minutes to argue for the legitimacy of democracy as upheld by biblical values. But it's a fact.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Natan Sharanski's book, the Case for Democracy, argues that genuine democracies are not aggressor nations. They don't launch wars of aggression, aggression or conquest. And he said the way you can tell if it's a genuine democracy, rather than one of the Jewish sham elections, is this can you stand in the middle of the town square and criticize the government without fear of being punished? And so Hamas can have elections in Gaza. But it's not a genuine democracy with 99% of the people vote for the current party. The same in Russia. But genuine democracies like the United States don't have the stomach for wars of aggression and they don't think it's right. So I think there's.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:The increasing Christian influence on nations of the world is the only answer to the aggressive desire for more conquest, more territory and more power.
Scott Allen:Luke and Dwight, I want to give you guys an opportunity. I know we've had some questions that we've worked up in advance, but I'd love to have you guys have a chance to ask Dr Grudem One of those questions or another one that comes to mind.
Luke Allen:One thing I'm curious about. We're talking about a theology of cultural engagement here. What role does the Holy Spirit in us play in that? How can we lean on the Holy Spirit, you know, the helper that Jesus left us with, as we seek to go out and do good works?
Scott Allen:Yeah, that's a great question, Luke, and if I could just add to it, I think a lot of times Christians, whether you think of the Holy Spirit, it's personal, it's very personal, personal sanctification. But is there a public role for the work of the Holy Spirit in us? Maybe it's just a different way of asking the same question, dr Grudem.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:What comes to mind, luke, is the Holy Spirit's guidance on what we do individually with regard to influencing culture.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:I'm praying for guidance now about working on that editorial or op-ed piece encouraging Donald Trump to jump out and get to drop out of the race for the good of the nation.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Now, I was going to write it a month or two ago, but it didn't seem like the right time, and that's just a sense of guidance from the Holy Spirit. I don't think it's the right time today or this week, but soon, and it continues to be on my mind as something that I think the Holy Spirit is bringing to my attention. There are other things I could work on, but it's not what God has given me a heart to do right now, and so I think the Holy Spirit guides individuals and in the public square, where we can go through all those other areas again business, education, medical care, athletics, art, music God guides individuals in individual ways and we get Christian leaders in those fields achieving great influence and crediting Jesus Christ and saying I want to thank Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior, for this success, and I think that's the result of the Holy Spirit's guidance in different people in different ways. Is that helpful, luke?
Luke Allen:That is helpful. Yeah, I hear that from friends now and again and they're wanting to live for Christ. And how can I do that in my daily life? Does that mean I need to be a missionary or a pastor? And my response to that is where is the Holy Spirit calling you? Is it to be the football coach? Because if it is, you can go and have a huge influence there.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Exactly, I'm with you 100% on that. I have a little book called Business for the Glory of God and I just thought it was a little book that had a little impact where it keeps on selling year after year after year. It keeps on selling because it's selling business people. They are doing things that bring good for other people and that is, if that's what God has called them to, they should do it to their best ability.
Dwight Vogt:I have a question that's a little unrelated, but, dr Grudam, let's say you're sitting in front of a group of 18-year-olds and they want your advice. What do you talk to them?
Dr. Wayne Grudem:What do you tell them these days, keep your personal prayer life in Bible reading time, active and vital, so you'll be sensitive and receptive to the guidance of the Holy Spirit on your life, and it's going to be different for each person.
Scott Allen:Stay close to the Lord, Just lean in on Him. And that's how you do that through spending time in His Word, spending time in prayer. Thanks for that, Dr Grudam.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:It might be that God is calling someone to be an electrical engineer. Well then, that person is not going to spend much time on other activities, other parts of life. God has made it so different that we need to call individual callings. But what I disagree with is Christians, Christian leaders, criticizing those who feel called to spend time influencing politics. That's a huge area to affect so much of our life, and we need Christians active in influencing the political situation for good.
Dwight Vogt:Yeah, why do you think that is?
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Oh, um.
Dwight Vogt:Why are pastors kind of allergic to politics?
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Well, if you're in a district that votes 90% for Democrats, you're going to choose very carefully what politically issues you talk about.
Dwight Vogt:Or lose your membership.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:But if you're in a pastor that is 90% Republican, you'll feel a lot more freedom to talk about political issues. Now I'm challenging people in the 90% Democrat category. You need to talk about some issues that are morally right and wrong. Maybe you're not going to talk about whether income tax rate should be 25% or 30%, but you should be talking about some of the issues I mentioned before. I think the border is a moral issue. I think defense is a moral issue. I think abortion is a moral issue.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Oh, christian nationalism. We didn't get back to that, scott. People are concerned that we're going to try to force everybody to support some church or another, and if that's what's meant by Christian nationalism, then I don't support it for sure. But once we guarantee freedom of religion, I think it is loving my neighbor as myself to seek to have laws that are consistent with the health, healthy, life-giving, wise, moral teachings of scripture. I think it's wise to have a government that protects private property. Well, okay, so we've got a shoplifting epidemic in some cities in the United States because the law against stealing is not enforced. I think that's harming society, and Christian influence should be to bring city council to elect city council members who will ask the television, air or the chief of police enforce the law. It's healthy for society to follow biblical moral teachings.
Scott Allen:Yes, right, yeah, no question about it. I think you're right to say if it means you know this phrase Christian nationalism, because, frankly, there's just all sorts of different ideas and definitions of what that means. And so, starting with, what do you mean by that is very important. And if we're talking about Christian influence in a nation based on biblical truth or the moral law of the Ten Commandments, it seems to be a bit hard to argue against that. But still there's a lot of debate. May I ask you one more question from my standpoint, dr Grudem? Again, the theme here on our discussion is Christian engagement and culture and times of chaos and crisis.
Scott Allen:But one of the ways that this debate is manifesting itself is this you know there's Christians arguing that if you're in a state I'm in Oregon right now, so is Luke and you know they're making the argument that Oregon is a lost cause. You know it's. It's or maybe you'd say that about Massachusetts or California, in the sense that it's being governed by non Christians with non Christian ideas. Crime is rampant, shoplifting, drug addiction. It's time to leave. You should leave. Go to states that are more amenable to biblical principles and values. Others argue that no Christians are called into difficult places as missionaries, to be salt and light in dark places. What are your thoughts on that debate? I'd love to hear your, your thoughts.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Both sides are right. That is maybe I said, too provocative away. I think it's very similar to whether I should stay in a liberal church that becomes more liberal in its doctrine. Yes.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:I think God calls some people to stay and some people to leave, and I think the same with California and Oregon. God calls some people to stay and some to leave, some, some people, just it's where God has put them and there be. Faithfulness is there and it's actually God made me, I hope, bring revival and change of heart. And others want to leave and thrive in a new environment. So it's similar to whether Christians, evangelicals, should stay in the church of England. Dispute between JI.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Packer and Martin Lloyd Jones several decades ago, and Packer stayed in the church of England and Martin Lloyd Jones continued to call people to leave it, and I think it's very possible that they both were following God's leading.
Scott Allen:Yeah, I really appreciate that too. You know, I think we, we, we and it gets back to what you were saying about the role of the Holy Spirit in our lives, in these things you know being sensitive to the spirit of God and that God has a calling and it's different for for different people, and rather than make judgments about people on these issues, maybe you know trust that they've prayed and they've really sought God's wisdom on this and are are making a decision that they feel is right and to support them in that, and both of these choices can be good choices, depending on what you have.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:And another version of the one size fits all criticism of Christian shouldn't be so involved in politics. It's neglecting the gospel. Well, some should be involved in politics and not be criticized for it. But the people who are involved in politics have to be careful not to be too judgmental about people who aren't. I think, at minimum, people should minimum people should vote. I'd like people to contribute money to candidates because that's a significant way of influencing the direction of the nation. But beyond that, there's a wide variety of callings that God has for different people.
Scott Allen:And they're all important. That's not to say sharing the gospel is not important. We all understand that and that we need to be doing that. I have to remind myself that's an important part of what I need to be praying for every day is opportunities to share the gospel with the people I'm interacting with. But I think sometimes Christians think that that's the only thing that becomes important. And you know all of these other things that we do, whether it's in business, politics, music you know, somehow those are just things we have to do to earn money or whatever it is. So they don't have a place in our kind of Christian faith. And I hear you saying that's just a wrong way of thinking.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Yeah, I am a bit surprised that people in the Reformed community theologically making that criticism because historically it seems to me the Reformation, one of the things that is persuasive to me in college and deciding whether to become a Calvinist by conviction was the fact that the Reformed theological tradition impacted all of life. Yes.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Impacted culture, impacted music and art and Francis Schaeffer's work for instance, and influence education, influence hospitals and medical care, influence businesses, influence requirements of faithfulness and contracts and all sorts of things, hundreds of things. And now to criticize people who are trying to bring influence in politics, I think it's a mistake.
Scott Allen:Yeah Well, dr Grudem, we are ending with that word politics again. You have. You said that you have. Is it an editorial that's coming out on this?
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Well, since you didn't like the title, maybe I'll abandon it.
Scott Allen:No, I didn't say I didn't like the title. You were just looking at my response to it and because I'm kind of dull and slow with it, you thought maybe I need to change the title a bit of my other, I think it will get read I think it'll. Oh, there's no question, It'll be hugely read. It'll get read. But when can we read that? Where is it coming out at? Or is that not set yet?
Dr. Wayne Grudem:It's not set, okay, well, I will say there's a historical fact Everything I've sent to townhallcom they've published.
Scott Allen:Okay, okay, well, maybe they'll pick this one up as well, and I, boy, I would really love to see that. And, dr Grudem, thank you for your work, too, on these upcoming books. How can people be? Is there a place that people can be watching for when these become available?
Dr. Wayne Grudem:We'll have a website WayneGrudemcom.
Scott Allen:WayneGrudemcom, and that's the best place to see when your new work is coming out and available.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Yeah or Amazon.
Scott Allen:Okay, or Christi.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:Book.
Scott Allen:I'm inspired by the way that you're just continuing to just work so diligently and thank you. Thank you for just the vision that God has given you and being faithful in that.
Dr. Wayne Grudem:You know, scott, I'll say something about that. We moved into this retirement community. Margaret and I were offered an apartment that opened up and we signed the contract. So we went from being homeowners to renters again. We sold our house and then the next apartment next door apartment became available, and the question is whether we should take that apartment as well and make it into an office for me. And we did, and it was more expensive. But the reason behind it in my own mind, was God has put me in a position where, at age 75, I've been studying and teaching and writing about the Bible for over 50 years approximately, and I have information in my head that can still be useful, I hope, to the advancement of Christ's kingdom on earth. And so I feel an obligation to use the time well and not just put my feet up and watch movies the rest of my life. So just appreciate prayers that God would keep me faithful to His word and help me be wise in judgments that I make, even in the political realm.
Scott Allen:We'll use that as a call to our listeners to this podcast to please do pray, pray for Dr Grudem in this way that all that God has for him would be fulfilled in the days that he has left. But thank you for your example, dr Grudem. It's inspiring to me, and just for your work and for the time with us today, I'm still waiting for revival to break out.
Scott Allen:Amen. I keep believing that we're seeing signs of that, but we will continue to pray and to watch and do our part. So, dr Grudem, thank you so much for taking time to be with us on our podcast. Ideas have consequences. Again, this is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance.
Luke Allen:Thank you for listening to this episode with Dr Wayne Grudem, as always.
Luke Allen:If you'd like to continue delving into today's topic and learn more about our guest, make sure to check out the episode landing page, which includes all of the resources that we mentioned on the show today, including some of our favorite books from Dr Grudem.
Luke Allen:It also includes the episode transcript, key quotes, shareable social media posts and more, and to head to the episode landing page, just click on the link in the show notes, or you can find it on the homepage of our website, which is disciplenationsorg. Ideas have consequences is brought to you by the Disciple Nations Alliance. To learn more about our ministry, you can find us on Instagram, facebook, twitter and YouTube, or on our website, which again is DiscipleNationsorg. If you would like to help us share the show with more people, the easiest way that you can do that is by sharing an episode with one of your friends, or you can leave the show a rating and review on Apple Podcast or wherever you're listening. Thanks again for listening and we hope you're able to join us for our next episode, which, as always, will be released on Tuesday at 5pm Pacific Time. We'll see you then.