Ideas Have Consequences
Gender Unity and Diversity with Lisa and Nelson Monteiro
In his forthcoming book, The Grand Design, Darrow Miller explains how as image bearers of God, both male and female are equal in value and dignity, while also beautifully designed with unique roles and functions. Today we are joined by our good friends Lisa and Nelson Monteiro, who have both played integral roles in The Grand Design course and book creation. Because the Monteiros have lived in both Brazil and Canada, they have a unique perspective on the way cultural views of men and women can be helpful or damaging. You'll hear about the tears, conversations, and behind-the-scenes stories that lead to the creation of The Grand Design book and course. Join us as we explore the transformative power of truth and the unique challenges and opportunities of ministry in cultures rooted in sexism or feminism.
Go deeper with the transcript and recommended resources on the Episode Landing Page!
In his forthcoming book, The Grand Design, Darrow Miller explains how as image bearers of God, both male and female are equal in value and dignity, while also beautifully designed with unique roles and functions. Today we are joined by our good friends Lisa and Nelson Monteiro, who have both played integral roles in The Grand Design course and book creation. Because the Monteiros have lived in both Brazil and Canada, they have a unique perspective on the way cultural views of men and women can be helpful or damaging. You'll hear about the tears, conversations, and behind-the-scenes stories that lead to the creation of The Grand Design book and course. Join us as we explore the transformative power of truth and the unique challenges and opportunities of ministry in cultures rooted in sexism or feminism.
Go deeper with the transcript and recommended resources on the Episode Landing Page!
But a tenant of the book and God's truth is that we have equality. As, darrell, you've said many times. Equality and value and dignity as humans is recreated in God's image, yet diversity in our function and attributes. So I see the grand design as a celebration of diversity and unity. We are unified by our humaneness and we are celebrated by our uniqueness, both as individuals and as male and female.
Luke Allen:Welcome to. Ideas have Consequences. The podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance, a show where we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world to all the nations, but to also transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected this second part of her mission and today Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ-honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.
Scott Allen:Well, welcome again to another episode of Ideas have Consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance, and we are picking up our discussion on Darryl Miller's newest book, the Grand Design Rediscovering Male and Female as the image of God, and this is essentially part two of our discussion and as a part of what we're going to be doing. Today, we have the privilege of having as our guests Nelson and Lisa Montero, who have been involved with this project from the beginning and have really been key stakeholders in it, and in addition to Nelson and Lisa, I'm joined today by Luke Darryl, the author Darryl Miller's back, and Dwight Vogt is joining us as well. Guys, great to have you all on the podcast today. Let's jump in, and I would just like to take advantage of our time with Nelson and Lisa.
Scott Allen:Nelson and Lisa, you guys are dear friends and really important parts of the ministry of the DNA. I think for our listeners, this is the first time they've been introduced to you, and so I'd love to just give you an opportunity to just explain to people a little bit about who you are. You can tell us your background as much or as little as you like, so just introduce yourself.
Nelson Monteiro:Well, we are delighted to be here, scott, thank you for the invitation. Good to be here with Luke and Darryl and Dwight also Just to locate us on the map. And then we start to feel that we are based in Victoria, canada, right now, and our work is both in Canada and Brazil. I am originally from Brazil and then, when I was well, a few decades ago, I came to Canada. I was 24, actually, when I came to Canada.
Scott Allen:What brought you to Canada, Nelson?
Nelson Monteiro:I was sent actually by a Brazilian church. I mean the whole global mission movement. Right, we in Brazil are a fruit of missions, of American missionaries, canadian missionaries and then the whole cycle of churches in the global south sending our missionaries to the global north. So I came in 1989 to Canada, to Winnipeg. Actually, I come from the Amazon, one degree south of the equator. For those who are familiar with Winnipeg, the winter goes like to minus 40. What a shock.
Scott Allen:I can't imagine coming from Brazil and going to Winnipeg, you know going to the uttermost parts of the earth.
Nelson Monteiro:That's right. That's correct, actually, with theology. So anyway, I came as a missionary to help with the Portuguese community planting church. That was the mission. And then the second stop was in Victoria BC, where I met Lisa, the second church plan.
Scott Allen:And you went to Victoria originally to study. Isn't that correct?
Nelson Monteiro:at Regent University, yeah, I started my studies in Winnipeg, yes, and then I transferred to Regent College in Vancouver, which was a great experience, a great man and woman of God, great formation. Really, it was a key part of my formation.
Scott Allen:And did you meet JI Packer?
Nelson Monteiro:Yes, I did Four systematic theologies with him.
Scott Allen:Yes, oh my gosh, oh wow.
Nelson Monteiro:Yeah, all those great men and women of God there that were so instrumental in my formation Our formation actually was. When we got married, I was still doing my graduate studies there. We stayed there for another three years after we got married, so Lisa was also exposed to that. So that's where we met, in Victoria.
Scott Allen:And were you studying at Regent College as well, Lisa, or what were you doing at the time?
Lisa Monteiro:I had the privilege of taking a few courses. As a spouse I was allowed, but I was introduced to a whole new level of vocabulary that I'm still working through, still digesting Every phrase that I heard. It took me a couple months to digest and absorb. It was a really formative time for me as well, just being in the midst of an international graduate community, and then the level of study was really, yeah, exemplary.
Scott Allen:Where do you come from, Lisa? Are you originally from British Columbia?
Lisa Monteiro:I'm originally from Victoria, yes, and was immersed into the Portuguese speaking world through our marriage and then our relationship with the pastoring in Vancouver, a Portuguese-Brazilian community, and so that was this interesting exposure to missions on home ground, so to speak, and it was a wonderful introduction.
Scott Allen:When I first met you guys, you weren't in Canada, you were in Brazil. So tell us a little bit about that. You ended up going back down to Brazil and doing ministry there, yes, so just catch us up to that point.
Nelson Monteiro:Yeah, in 2004,. Actually we felt I called it a debt of love because the church that sent me here as a missionary I mean the talk about Brazil, the population, the poor, the strike of the poor, those who don't have too many material resources I mean that church was the demographics, its majority was that and that church and they sent me to Canada and they invested in me, like in education, like Regent College. So after a few years I felt this debt of love. How can we go back and give something? So we spent 14 years in Brazil.
Nelson Monteiro:We went back in 2004 to Recife, that's northeast in Brazil, the elbow of Brazil, closest to Europe and Africa. It was right there. They also the poorest region in Brazil. So we worked with missionary training. Brazil was sending many missionaries. Many were coming back, for preventable reasons, let's say. And then we, we added value to a Bible school there through missionary training for seven years in receive, and then we moved to our, to our drive north, to a city called Juampesoa, and that's where my contact with the DNA came first came. And that's why we started to work with community development, vulnerable communities.
Scott Allen:Young adults. What was the? What was the original contact there with it?
Nelson Monteiro:Was it a conference of some sort, or it was a conference that Analucia, our promo friend, put together in Juampesoa and invited me to come from Recife and I came. There was the first time at tarot. There was the first time I had any contact with the DNA. So there was the origins. Yep of our DNA and from there, three months later, we were in South Africa for the global form yes, 2011, I believe, or to 2012, south Africa.
Lisa Monteiro:Yeah and that that first conference, which I participated in as well, I was so impacted by three things. One was the content that Darrell presented. I had never heard that content before, so that was super impacting. Number two, darrell, was the way you delivered it. And one thing I was very impacted by was the roundtable discussions we had in groups that you you stepped back and out of the, the, the, the discussion, to allow people to share their experience and assimilate the information and and Discuss it. That was very impactful.
Lisa Monteiro:And the third thing and I think it's worthy to mention that today, since the topic is I remember being at a table at lunch with you over a couple of the days and I was very impacted by how you came alongside the women at the table in such a Deep and profound listening and empathetic listening To hear their stories. So that was before I even knew that you you would dive later on into that content around women, but it was the, the Connection with women and listening to their stories, that impacted me. That was the third thing. That Was early on.
Scott Allen:That's great. Thanks for sharing that. And you guys from that point, I mean we we could go, you know, into greater depth, but basically we've we've been in relationship since then. It's been a great joy to to just walk in relationship with you guys in ministry and now you're From the standpoint of the DNA. Anyways, you are what we call a network development coordinator for the Portuguese language region of the world and are Working with us. We have our core training, the Kingdomizer basic course in Portuguese, and other courses as well, and you guys are helping with Both broadcasting and following up and, amongst other things, it's been a great joy to have you guys being part of the team and Helping us in a variety of ways. So we're so excited and so blessed to be able to work with you, you guys. Just before we go on, just a little bit about your, your beautiful family, to tell us a little bit about your family.
Lisa Monteiro:We have three children, two adult children our daughter oldest daughter is 26, our middle son's 25 and our youngest is 17, finishing high school this year, and they have been. To give a little spoiler alert, here they, when we were going to talk about the impact of this Material on my life. I think I would say it's sort of summed up in in in the fruit through our children, in the fruit of our children, and Our daughter, oldest daughter it's interesting she said to me once as she relayed some Communication around women and the dignity of women, the value of women. I said I looked at her. She was very young and said how did you come up with that? She said, mom, we've lived with you for a long time, so this teaching, this teaching has really been lived out in our family and and I Could tell more stories about our Hi friends, thanks again for joining us today.
Luke Allen:We are so excited to release Darrow Miller's new book, the grand design Rediscovering male and female in the image of God, which will be out in exactly one week, on October 3rd. Please make sure to visit this episode's landing page, which you'll see linked in the show notes, because it contains everything you need to know about where you can find the book, how you can help us share it, where you can leave a review if you'd like to do so, as well as so much more. If you follow us on social media we are the disciple nations on Facebook and Instagram and DNA USA on Twitter or if you follow Darrow Miller's Facebook, you'll be able to see all the updates about the book from those platforms as well. But again, the episode landing page on our website, or linked in the show notes, is really the one-stop shop for everything you need to know about the grand design Rediscovering male and female in the image of God.
Scott Allen:Well, we're gonna give you an opportunity to do that, because that's what we want to talk about now. We want to talk about specifically your connection To, to the project, the grand design. You guys have been and you, lisa, in particular, have been, you know, really intimately involved in this project from the very beginning. So, yeah, how did you, how was it that you, what was the first connection or first involvement Was it? Was it just an invitation from Darrow, or how did that happen?
Nelson Monteiro:Well, we had been involved since the release of a nurturing the nation's yes, the first book. We actually, as soon as that book was Publishing English, we translated and published it in Portuguese. Oh. Yeah, and.
Lisa Monteiro:Your son was part of that, yeah that relation is done.
Nelson Monteiro:I, yeah, I did. And look, help me, look, look our son. So so, and also we, at the same time we we did one, the first gathering With Darrow in Brazil and invite a few young people to young adults to come, and that book then that had already been released in Portuguese was part of the gathering. So it really started nurturing the nations and spreading these teachings in Brazil About the so idea of reclaiming the dignity of women in beauty, health is healthy, cultures, right. So so we start there, start with the book actually, and Darrow teaching in coming to teach in Brazil.
Darrow Miller:That was a remarkable week we spent together. I'll never forget it. Just the Wonderful discussions we had, the intensity of the discussions, and I remember one time, particularly towards the end of the week, where we were sharing together and some of the men began to Apologize to the women for the way they had treated them and that became a very profound time of of weeping, of Confession, of repentance and and it was, it was a holy ground moment. I think we're going to med with us.
Lisa Monteiro:Yes.
Darrow Miller:Do you remember that?
Lisa Monteiro:Vividly. I think that's what, that, what is what God used to. To I want to say lure me the right word into was. Was really that moment Darrow for me, to Men coming alongside women's brokenness, because it involves both right women and men. And so to see that moment was powerful for me and, as I say, lured me into this journey of being involved more in this material.
Nelson Monteiro:Was transformational, was really a transformational moment.
Scott Allen:Could you describe a little bit for our audience the need that you you know you were seeing in Brazil on this issue of Relationship between men and women? You know Brazil is no different really in many ways, and countries all over the world, but how did you see this book and what Darrow was teaching you know meeting that particular need. Can you describe that a little bit?
Lisa Monteiro:Well, I, if I can speak into that a little bit I know that it's more than a decade ago that we Were in those early meetings and things have changed. The topic of the day may have changed, but in those days, our reality we were working in a very poor community in Brazil and this idea that at the, the root of some of the issues of the Superiority of men over women, which would have been the cultural norm at that time, what were the lies in in the culture around that? And I remember distinctly, darrow, at that one conference in Brazil yeah, where you I think it was Brazil yeah, you, you asked the, the, the, the community of about 200 or more, to identify different jokes in the culture that Involve women. And I was sitting at a table With Brazilians the majority were Brazilians at that conference and I remember listening to those jokes, that to to a person who's grown up in the culture.
Lisa Monteiro:You, you don't think about a lot of things that are in your culture, you don't analyze them, but for me, when I heard the jokes, through this awareness, the lens of awareness that I have been exposed to, I Could see in Into the culture how deeply rooted this idea of the superiority of men over women was and that was quite High-opening to me. And then I could after that see more clearly the consequences of that. In the poor community Not just the poor community in the church community, in the secular community, everywhere I start, in the, the, the culture as a whole, I could start to see those roots and the fruits they produced. Of course things are, the topic is different today, but that was the top. That was deeply rooted.
Nelson Monteiro:It is deeply rooted in many cultures, this idea of the superiority of men Over women and I can add to that the importance of this there, when you talk about lies in the culture, one of the big lies being men are superior to women, right, which was the theme of that book, and I think about what you say. I remember meeting Jose Gonzalez, who is a friend of the DNA, also right, and he wrote that book machismo and matriarchy. And even the word machismo, I mean it comes from us, from Latin America, right, and so to see to see him look at these issue, cultural issue, roots issue and saying this comes from history, this comes from the origins of how Portuguese and the Spanish came to Latin America, right, and he writes, of course, more to the Spanish side of Latin America, but here I remember talking to him and saying, nelson, do you think it's? It's, it's similar With the Portuguese coming to Brazil, said, oh yeah, I read, and he's.
Nelson Monteiro:He started to say how, how the Spanish came and they didn't bring their wives, their kids. They came to the Pilić, the, the region pretty much, and take back to their homeland, but they didn't bring their wives and different from from North America, right. So so that goes to the origin. Now, all that happened because of that and this, this, this encounter with natives and the, the Africans lives who came later, and all the, all the infidelity and all that dynamic that that that caused in the in and then they can't, families, wives coming later, and then this is already being rooted in the culture and that runs through history. And and how? That one of the one of the, the consequences, one of the Formation, what forms is this, this view of women, that men have in the culture? So that was a light that was exposed. That was a deep rooted lie in history of our Latin America countries, that was so fascinating yeah.
Darrow Miller:I remember.
Darrow Miller:Yeah, I remember when I first met him, we were at an airport, I think, in the Dominican Republic or Puerto Rico, and he said we were talking about worldview and culture. And he said you know, there's one world, one word, not worldview, one word that separates South America from North America. And I would have said it was a phrase. I'd spent years wrestling with this and thinking, oh, it's a phrase. And he said no, there's one word. I said what's the word? He said covenant. And I'm just shocked, what do you mean? And he said the people who came from northern Europe to North America were people who understood the biblical concept of covenant, that God was a God of covenants. He made covenants with men and so when they came to North America, they were people of covenants. And a man would make a covenant with a woman and in that covenant he was promising to be faithful to her and to care for her for his life. And it was a covenant.
Darrow Miller:And he said, when the Spaniards, in the Portuguese, came from southern Europe to South America, they didn't have the concept of covenant. And it's what you just said, nelson. They came to pillage and they pillaged women and they just assumed that women were there to take care of the men, to cook for them, to clean their clothes, to take care of their house and to be sexual partners for their sexual release. They didn't have a concept of covenant and so they came and pillaged, and I was just shocked by his explanation of this.
Darrow Miller:And now you're touching on it again today, and this goes back and I want to come back to the two of you in a minute here. But you were working in communities of poverty and I've been engaged in communities of poverty for years, and most people think that poverty is a material thing. You know, people don't have money. If you give them money, you're going to end poverty. But the root of poverty is not a physical root, it's a metaphysical root, it's a root of ideas and you know this because it's something you heard me say probably the first time we met that one of the greatest causes of poverty in the world is a lie, it's that men are superior to women, and that lie has been manifested in cultures all over the world.
Darrow Miller:And I think, you know that first book, nurturing the nations, and this one that we're talking about today, the Grand Design for me. This is a subject that's deeper in my heart than my first book, discipling Nations, because I have seen so many, the suffering of so many women, of families, of children and of men because of this lie, and it absolutely has to. This lie has to be replaced with truth that women are the image of God, the very image of God, and that we would not have the concept of the image of God in the world if it were just for men. Let us make man in our image, male and female.
Lisa Monteiro:Yes, so I think, oh sorry, Scott, no go ahead, go ahead.
Lisa Monteiro:Oh, I was just saying, Darryl, that's what drew me into this was I feel it started with this justice bent, that to see injustice and to try and find solutions to the injustice, and so that aspect that was presented, really that lie in replacing it was the truth of the biblical view of humanity, male and female, that drew me in and really instilled a passion for this topic in me. But then there's the second half of the story. It also unraveled me. That's another story.
Luke Allen:It unraveled you yes.
Lisa Monteiro:Unraveled me absolutely. We talk about deconstruction today in a different light, but I had to deconstruct my own view of women, of men, of myself, of all that had to be deconstructed because I was raised in the 70s and 80s and had to be unraveled before I could be put back together in fullness. I believe, and in fullness.
Scott Allen:I mean, Lisa, do you mind sharing? What do you mean by that? What had to change the way you were shaped or thought about these issues previously?
Lisa Monteiro:Just a little context. So I did not grow up with this teaching. I grew up with the fruit of a biblical worldview. So I was born in the mid 60s and grew up with the fruit of that but not the teaching. So I would have seen covenant in a relationship. I would have seen a lot of the dignity around humans and the equality of male and female. I would have seen that in role models and then difference in function. We will get into that later.
Lisa Monteiro:I'm sure I would have seen that, but I would not have understood that. There was a heavy influence in my life of more the journey for me that I could be equal to a man. That was my journey. I think opportunity was always there. Education I had lots of opportunity. I could do and be anything I wanted. So it was sort of the elevation of the individual and a woman can do what a man does. So the teaching on a biblical, a biblical rooted worldview around women was also freeing for me personally and returned me to some of the unique functions we have as a woman, including motherhood and our nurturing nature and really made me delve into that in a way I had not done before.
Lisa Monteiro:So that's a fairly long story, but anyway, it's really similar.
Scott Allen:I mean my wife Luke's mom, would explain probably a very similar kind of story, because our context in the West after the first and second wave of feminism was different than what you guys were.
Scott Allen:We were just talking about in Brazil where to be a woman was to be essentially as good as a man, like a man, and what I hear you saying is you had to kind of the teaching the book helped you to kind of question some of that in a way that not you know. There's an equality of dignity, of course, and equality of being made in God's image, but there's. But what we've lost sight of is just the difference, the distinction between male and female, because that wasn't emphasized at all. Yes.
Scott Allen:So okay, well, that's so interesting. I would love to hear from you guys, lisa and Nelson Bolt. But what? Well, maybe before we ask, I was going to ask the question what has most impacted you about the grand design, the new book, as you've been involved in the project? But maybe you could just describe a little bit of your involvement in the project? I know it involved a trip for you guys to Spain, and so do you want to just talk a little bit about your involvement in the project, lisa?
Lisa Monteiro:So Nelson and I had the privilege of going to Spain, to Malaga, for that week where we met with such a beautiful, diverse group that was unified by our trust in a creator, a designer and the truth of God's word. So it was this beautiful week of people from all over the world and, I would say, exemplified our time to exemplify unity and diversity. So it was a wonderful chance to be there, to hear the content that Darryl presented. Again, and to Darryl you've always described yourself as a practitioner and I feel the same. I feel I'm a practitioner.
Lisa Monteiro:So to be in Malaga was this time to see it penetrate to a yet deeper level in people's lives and then to hear people's experience as their lives connect with the teaching of God and to hear them reflect on that, to hear their hope and joy in facing a future that has brought some chaos in this regard. So it was really that intersection of truth, meeting people and us joining together in community and discussion. It was so rich, such a rich time. And then, after that time, in Malaga, just to be part of the first draft of the book. Again, it goes deeper, another layer, and both in my life and in my approach to working with other people and reflecting on society and having a context for engaging with people and caring for people in society. So it's both personal and societal. So that would have been my involvement.
Darrow Miller:Dwight, could you take a moment and share what happened in Malaga, the idea behind that and what happened there?
Scott Allen:Yeah, what was the purpose of that gathering? I know, dwight, you were very involved in the Malaga conference there too.
Dwight Vogt:Okay, quickly, lisa, you referred to Nurturing the Nations that book, and it is the foundation for the grand design, and Darryl just kept percolating those ideas and further developing and adding illustrations and gaining more and more of a group around him that brought in content.
Dwight Vogt:So there came a point where Darryl was just really wanting to do another version and also get it online, and that's where you all volunteered, at your own expense, to come to Malaga and take part in the filming of that online training in what was going to be the Nurturing the Nations. And then it became the Dignity of Women, and all the ones were looking at it and going wait, this is about male and female as a big picture, and actually you and the group defined the term. You were the ones that came up with that understanding that this is bigger than just dignity of women. This is the grand design, and so I was privileged just to help put the pieces together and organize it, and I agree I'll never forget that week. It was hard, it was work, it was long, but it was wonderful and the group had so many insights and I remember collecting testimonies and it was just brilliant. So it was great to be a part of that with you, thank you.
Dwight Vogt:And out of that came a video course, an online video course called the Grand Design, which has been translated into audio dub in Spanish and, true to its history, it's having as much, probably a wider impact still in Spanish now in Latin America than even in the English-speaking world. We've got lots of people signing up for the Grand Design in Spanish online wwwdisciplenationsorg is where you can find the Grand Design course, and I would encourage all of you, if you haven't checked it out, to go check it out.
Scott Allen:It's something you can avail yourself of and go through this training and experience what we're talking about, what's had such an impact on Lisa and Nelson as well. So we had an online course that was filmed there and then a book that eventually came out of that as well.
Darrow Miller:Nelson, what are some of your memories of that week and how it impacted you?
Nelson Monteiro:Well, first of all, I definitely the group of people. Lisa already mentioned that diversity in unity, the ambience, the place, the space, the kingdom and space in that one particular location that plays like that ambience in Málaga the beauty, the table, the time around the table, fellowship, relationships, food exactly that's what I say.
Lisa Monteiro:And the napkins. Don't forget the napkins.
Dwight Vogt:Your son, lou, folded the napkins for every meal and they came up with a different design, I think, for every meal which fit the tone of the meeting, because it was. I mean, one of the beauties of the female image of God is beauty, and I thought beauty was really baked into that experience, both in the room, the setting, the location and the food and the meals.
Darrow Miller:The meals the serving of the meals.
Nelson Monteiro:And that's what I was trying to get. All that, like their beauty. That's what I was trying to get. All that beauty as we are going to be talking about some issues of brokenness when it relates to women and how women have been treated and the lies right, and we're going to be talking about brokenness the best of the fall, if you can say this, or the worst of the fall so this to be that ambience of beauty we're going to be talking about brokenness. For me, it was redeeming also this redemptive aspect of being there with all this beauty around and people, richness of relationships and fellowship. So for me, it's like the redemption is created, that the fall touches design, but redemption reverses what the fall touched and related to this issue. So, anyway, that for me was a very great impact actually, that there is redemption, there is a plan, there is, it's moving, it's a history is moving and God redeems all that, even as we talked about brokenness, to be in that ambience of beauty. For me, this whole impact of redemption and kingdom and beauty.
Darrow Miller:You mentioned the space that was there, and when we were in Brasilia together for that gathering where we focused on nurturing the nations, there were moments of this space you were talking about. The kingdom of God was present, and there were times in Malaga where there was that sense of we've entered a sacred space and that's the only way to describe it as a sacred space and part of it was the unity of such a diverse group. I think there were five continents represented there, and Africa and Asia, and Europe and Canada, north America, south America. What is that? Five continents and just men and women, and to come together in unity as Christians and then around this subject of the dignity of women and the importance of the image of God being present in men and women's lives.
Nelson Monteiro:Absolutely, I agree there that those images it's like heaven touching earth. It's us here in the natural, but there is a supernatural realm. The reality is all of that and we are not here alone to deal with these issues. God is working in history, heaven on earth, like kingdom come your will be done on earth as it is in heaven, heaven and earth and beauty there and kingdom. So that for me was actually very refreshing, because this is a big battle, but it was very refreshing to the feeling that heaven touching earth, we are working together. There's beauty, there's kingdom. There's a God, more than anybody else, who is interested in working and moving these things in history and he calls us to be part of that work with him as co-agents of transformation. He's the primary agent. We are co-agents of transformation with him. So there's kingdom, right and that space with beauty, the table, people, relationships. That's our kingdom to combat the lies, right and the brokenness.
Lisa Monteiro:I heard someone recently and you mentioned space, space to see that intersection of truth with people's lives, to see redemption take place, transformation going to the deep level. I heard someone recently talk about the table as a redemptive space, and that's an interesting topic there too.
Dwight Vogt:Another book.
Scott Allen:What year was the Malaga gathering for the filming of the Grand Design? Do you remember what year that was?
Nelson Monteiro:Right before COVID 2019, by the end of 2019.
Darrow Miller:October. November.
Scott Allen:I'm just reflecting on just the dramatic changes in our culture, particularly in the West, canada, the United North America, since 2019. On this subject, today, you know it's highly controversial to talk about male and female as a binary right. I think of our US Supreme Court justice recently I forget her name right now, but the one that was just seated and in her the hearing, you know she was where she was being interviewed by senators. You know one of the senators.
Darrow Miller:Marsha.
Scott Allen:Blackburn. Yeah, Marsha Blackburn from Tennessee asked her you know, could you define male and female? And she wouldn't. Let's say. She said I'm not a biologist.
Luke Allen:I'm not an expert.
Scott Allen:And then, on top of just this, and when you guys were filming this I don't think that wasn't like nobody was talking that way and it's just been so quick this change and even you guys coming from British Columbia, I remember it hit my radar kind of. First there was a story out of British Columbia of a father whose son or daughter, I don't remember exactly which now was at school and was, without the knowledge of the parents, was transitioning from male to female transgender issue there and the parents found out about it and objected and a court got involved and essentially separated the child from the parents and I was just shocked by that, like oh my gosh. So I wonder if you guys could speak a little bit to how does this book, the grand design and the message in it, speak to these kind of new issues that weren't even hardly being talked about when you guys were gathering in Malaga? How does it address the current kind of issues and conversation that we're having debate around, male and female?
Nelson Monteiro:I think for me, scott, when I hear that question and when I think about the content and how we have been wrestling with these issues and coming from a biblical view and as we work with young adults, the millennials and younger, mainly in our work is a lot of community poverty and development, but the other aspect of our ministry is to wrestle with this generation, to be around the table with them, to struggle with these things.
Nelson Monteiro:One of the things that I can say that the impact of this book is that it gives a broader picture, the broader picture possible, the broader concept actually of what being human really means, as Steve, mayo and Mayo, and our commonality of being humans, this unity of being humans creating God's image and, of course, all the conversation about what does that mean? The structural aspect, as we say, the theology, the relational aspect, the representative or functional aspect, but this broader picture of what being human is and that integrates that's what I'm trying to say For me. You talk about all these ideas in this postmodern society that we live in, the word fragmentation is one of the words that we most usually define this postmodern society and culture where we live.
Nelson Monteiro:But this teaching, it integrates, and that's as we work with young adults. They are so scattered in their minds, in their lives, fruit of the culture. We all are actually living cultures, but this teaching, it integrates, it brings together the big picture of what it means.
Scott Allen:Vaqalab Havel, the former, died, now, of course, czech communist dissident Prime minister of the Czech Republic, prime minister who became the first president, prime minister of the.
Nelson Monteiro:He's the one who said I remember talking to Stephen Garber, who was a professor at Regent College, who is now in Washington, back in Washington DC, he used the Vaqalab. Havel was one who said that if you remove God from the picture, then we cannot talk about meaning, significance, purpose and responsibility. And as we talk about the grand design, we bring in a big picture that gives these, especially this new generation, all of us really this sense of there is significance, there is meaning, there is purpose, there is responsibility, which I have started to use that word as responsibility, this ability to respond. This we are a part, we have a part here, right? So I think one of the big things for me about the grand design is that it integrates. It integrates belief and action. It integrates heaven and earth. It integrates the already with the not yet.
Scott Allen:It integrates, it gives us this full 360 degrees orbit like Nancy Pershing says I love that word, nelson, and I'm thinking of fragmentation and how, like you say, postmodernism, and this is so much driving our discussions today and our debates that people are fragmented, they're alienated from who they are, as male and female, and to the point where they're literally getting surgeries and removing body parts.
Darrow Miller:it's that kind of level of alienation and fragmentation and Well, you move from male and female to what 70, 80 different terms for sexuality today? Gender, yeah the gender spectrum right.
Scott Allen:This is just adding daily right, you talk about fragmentation.
Darrow Miller:every day there's more fragmentation.
Scott Allen:It's falling apart, yeah.
Nelson Monteiro:Yeah, and one thing to complete what I was going to say, and the thing is a lot of this, I feel. I feel that a lot of this has to do with a lot of ideas. More than the love of human beings, it's ideas, right, we talk about the ideas and the consequences, how ideology is so powerful, especially as it divides. It has divided us, and I remember reading Visions of Vocation again, stephen Garber wrote that book, and in that book he talks about Simone Will, the French philosopher who died in the 1940s and she became a communist earning her life.
Nelson Monteiro:And then there was one point later in her life that Trotsky was coming to speak in France and she, of course, she went to listen to him. But then it said that the night that he spoke became a line in the same moment for her right, Because the longer she listened to him speaking she realized said that he loved his ideas more than he loved people. He seemed to be enamored with humanity quotation marks but was indifferent to the lives of ordinary men and women, the proletariat of his own passions. So a lot of it today has to do with a lot of ideas and defending ideas and an ideology than really a lot of human beings. It's not about seeing people being free to do whatever they want. It's just a lot of it. It's just to make sure that an idea is promoted and anyway, I think a lot about these things.
Scott Allen:That is very interesting, nelson. Back to the imagery of fragmentation, and you were mentioning how this book. It speaks a message of integration and it brought to my mind that famous passage in Colossians talking about Jesus, the creator of all things. And it goes on and it says and in him all things hold together. And there's so much in that phrase holding together. Apart from him, it all flies apart, but in him it all holds together. There's unity. There's unity within sight of ourselves and with one another, and I think that is a powerful message, jero, of this book.
Nelson Monteiro:Yes, yes.
Lisa Monteiro:Yeah. I.
Darrow Miller:Sorry, do no, go ahead. I was just calling on you because I saw you Forming an idea. Is your mind there?
Lisa Monteiro:Well, the idea has been formed for a while one of the few ideas that have been formed for a while in my mind, and that is that the book is really a celebration of diversity and Unity and we use those words a lot today, and I feel it's a celebration for me personally. I have felt a new level of freedom in being a woman that I'm diverse from, from man. I grew up in the feminist movement in the 60s, 70s of I'm equal to a man and I have found a new level of freedom in my diversity that I'm equal.
Scott Allen:Equal meaning, kind of the same. In a sense there's not much that well this distinguishes us of significance or importance. Yeah.
Lisa Monteiro:Yeah, or even roles and fun right but, you know, a tenant of the book, and God's truth is that that we have equality, as, darrell, you've said many times. Equality and value and dignity, as humans were created in God's image, yet diversity in our function and attributes. So I see the grand design as a celebration of diversity and unity. We are unified by our humanness and we are celebrated by our uniqueness, both as individuals and as male and female. So I that's, that's a theme for me a celebration of diversity and unity.
Scott Allen:Unity without uniformity, diversity without superiority. And we see that in the first place in the relationships within the Trinity itself, within God's very nature, and then, when we are made in his image, we see that reflected ideally in you know.
Scott Allen:In our own lives, our own relationships. Yeah, darrell, other questions that you have for for Nelson and Lisa is you know just where. It's been just a joy to hear your you know your reaction and responses to To the book that you guys were intimately involved in helping to to bring to life here. But, dear other questions you have.
Darrow Miller:Yeah, the question in the back of my mind Are there are conversations you remember in Malaga Around this theme, where someone from another culture said something to you and you you had a ha, where you heard something from someone else that was Breathtaking, as it were.
Lisa Monteiro:I Remember a number of conversations, I think, with a similar theme, and One person sticks out in my mind expressing this theme, and the theme is freedom, really, which is a deeply Running thread through the Bible from beginning to end, and I remember her expressing Christine from Kenya, expressing the freedom she felt To Understand that she could live out her womanhood Without being so heavily influenced by the lies of what she told she is or should be as a woman. She was for feeling free to not Live under that oppression of the cultures, view words about being a woman, both from the side of being inferior and the side that many young women around the world are exposing. Is that no, you are the same as a man and you or you don't need men in your life because you are everything, you are completed. There are all these lies and different Generations and different contexts, different locations, but I think freedom the expression of I feel free, I feel that I have a deeper root rootedness in my identity and feel freed.
Darrow Miller:Freed to be who God created me to be, I've seen this so often when I've taught on this subject, and Just there's a moment in so many people's lives when they have a new understanding of what it means to be male and female in the image of God, yeah, and there's an explosion in their mind and the box in their mind that has has limited them suddenly explodes and the word is freedom. Yeah, they're free. They're free to be all that God intends them to be as A woman, as a man, in relationship. It's, it's marvelous.
Lisa Monteiro:Yes, I.
Nelson Monteiro:Think. Sorry, all thinking there was thought. I think what's his name From? Came from Latin America, catalina Carolina. Yeah, I remember she talking about the initial. I think she even mentioned that in the video that that, the Testimony that you're collecting, that this teaching of the grand design it talked about it drawing us near to the essence of God. As you are drawn near to the essence of God, to truth, it is transformation. She talked about turns to. This is transformative. This, this opens a whole new horizons of possibilities for transformation.
Nelson Monteiro:To speak, not, I keep saying to Lisa, I was in Brazil actually you mentioned Brazil before earlier. There I was arrived in Brazil on one of my trips and they used to be used to put those phrases from families, people, on the walls of the Airport in Brazil and they kept changing so that they I arrived and I notes a new phrase was from, actually from Pablo Picasso, and it said Translated here it was in portuguese, of course, but in English would be a few are against it. You are already part of the movement. So for me, that they, what that said, said wow, I'm a Christian and I am against. There's so many agendas that I cannot approve of. I'm, of course I'm against it. But I have to be careful that in being against, I'm not part of the movement by landing on that platform, but by legitimating that platform of the fall. So if I'm, if I'm hijacked by that platform, by everything that the news presents me today and the stab the second establishment presents me today, that it's, it's almost abnormal to go against. But if I'm hijacked by that platform, if they, if they, if I'm saying okay, that is the issue, and I'm hijacked and I land on brokenness, I'm leaving my, my platform of redemption.
Nelson Monteiro:I need to operate from the redemption and and so, as you go close to the essence of God, like Kathleen I said, as you go close to truth that Resonates with human beings, that resonates with our spirit, there's, there's no coming against, like, like, like Jesus said Paul, paul, what are you doing? Coming against when Paul falls from the horse and the way to the masters, paul, I'm Jesus. What it means? So? So there's truth, there's reality. We may fight as we we may against it and of course, there's gonna be suffering, there's gonna be consequence. But the essence of that, as we come close to the essence of who God is and how he created us to be, there's truth that liberates this truth, that transforms right. So so, anyway, I remember Kathleen has talked about coming drawing closer the essence of God.
Dwight Vogt:I have a question for you, lisa. I sense that you engage with women as much or more than ever now, maybe compared to 20 years ago. What is it? What is your ministry to women and what are you saying, what are you trying to communicate, both to a Brazilian woman and and to a Canadian? Any thoughts?
Lisa Monteiro:Well, I feel that we live in this tension today of coming alongside the individual and and yet being Conscious of of Society, of systems at work.
Lisa Monteiro:So it's this, it's this two pronged approach that Really leaves us in this tension.
Lisa Monteiro:So we want to come alongside brokenness but, as Nelson said, to make sure that Brokenness is not the platform from which we operate that hope and redemption are.
Lisa Monteiro:So in the area of hope and redemption, I've found my ministry becoming more practical. I feel I'm at an age where I have a responsibility to mentor younger women and I feel we need practical mentors. So my ministry for the last, I would say, 10 years has been focused around being the woman of God that he has called me, to be exemplified in my position as a daughter, as a friend, as a sister, as A wife, as a mother, all those areas of my life that have some distinction around my female miss and Living that out as a mentor and a model, with a deep understanding of what I'm doing. So I, I the ministry around the table, in the home, the nurturing beauty, empowering strength, the helper being a refuge For people, hospitality all that is woven into various types of ministry I'm doing both here in Canada and Brazil a little bit different context in the two locations and and then the context varies.
Lisa Monteiro:So women in poor communities there are some different issues there that a little much more precursor to that of trying to address some of the brokenness, some of the lies, so it is a little bit different in the context. I do find young women in North America Really struggling. In my opinion. I think there are a lot of forces coming against young women in in North America and I think they're struggling on many levels right now.
Lisa Monteiro:I, for the last four months, I've returned to work a little bit in health care, which was my original location many years ago, and I see health, broken health, and I feel it's a consequence, as Darrow addresses, poverty in in nations that didn't have the economics or showed their poverty through economic conditions. I see we know poverty is much broader than that and I see a poverty of health and part of that is because Women are not young, women are not being allowed, both as a victim and a participant In the culture, not being enabled to be women. So I say I call that both a victim and a participant of our generation and culture and and it doesn't enable you to live freely and fully and I see the consequence, one of the consequences being poor health, a mental health, physical health and women are under incredible burden here and I I am Watching and participating as much as I can and helping in that realm.
Scott Allen:Thanks, well thanks you guys, for what you're doing. Your ministry is so impactful and Thank you for the role that you've played, this vital role that you played on this project. And, darrow, thank you for all that you've done, for your passion to See both men and women living fully as they were created to be, in the image of God. The book is the grand design, rediscovering male and female as the image of God. It is going to be released shortly, dwight, we have any. I?
Dwight Vogt:Think we're gonna time the podcast with the launch. So Okay.
Scott Allen:And we want to encourage all of you to not only get a copy, but if you would be so kind as to write a review, give it Five stars if you think it's worthy of that. I think it is. That would be a huge help. And and Again, lisa Nelson, thanks, guys for being with us, thanks for your friendship, thanks for your profound, just comments and your thoughts today it's been, it's been such a wonderful conversation, so Thank you for having us yeah we're gonna have to have you guys back again.
Scott Allen:It seems like there's a lot of things I wanted to pick up and kind of run with as as an additional conversation, so we'll have to do that. So, anyways, yes. Yeah, thank you guys. Thanks and thanks you for listening all to another episode of ideas have consequences. This is the podcast of the Disciplinations Alliance.
Luke Allen:Thank you for listening to this interview with Lisa and Nelson Montero again. The grand design Rediscovering male and female in the image of God will be out in exactly one week, on October 3rd. As I mentioned before, the episode landing page, which you'll see linked in the show notes, is where you can find everything you need to know about the book, including how you can help us share it, where you can leave a review and where you can find the grand designs free online Training course that we were talking about today. I've personally gone through this course twice and I especially recommend it for any young people who are continuously hearing Confusing and devaluing messages from our culture about what it means to be a male or female. This course is so refreshing as it points to what I think so many of us intrinsically Understand is the way that we should live, because it's a way that God designed us to live, with our identities anchored in him and our distinctions beautifully defined by him.
Luke Allen:On the episode landing page, you can also learn more about the Monteros and their ministry and resources that they've recently produced. Ideas have consequences is brought to you by the disciple nations alliance. To learn more about our ministry, you can find us on Instagram, facebook, twitter and YouTube or on our website, which is disciple nations org. Thanks again for listening and I hope you're able to join us next week for our interview with Jeff Meyers founders of some Administries to talk about the basics of what is worldview and why understanding a biblical worldview is essential for Christian Discipleship. Again, that will be out next week here on ideas have consequences.