Principles to Rethink Education

As many are realizing, the education system is not teaching a neutral worldview because there’s no such thing as a neutral worldview. Instead, most students today are being discipled in an atheistic, secular, materialistic ideology that directly opposes the Bible. When is it time for us to stop playing into this false education and reexamine God’s design for learning and instruction? What core principles for education can we discern from the Bible that can help us approach every area of study? What is God’s view of math, science, history, and art?

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Chapters

• 1:20 Introduction
• 15:50 God is Lord of all areas of education
• 27:58 Nothing exists apart from God, including math
• 35:45 What is the theology of children?
• 39:50 Is education void if it rejects God?
• 47:08 Education is downstream from culture
• 53:36 How can we reform education?
• 1:05:25 Final key principles for education
• 1:11:22 Conclusion

Transcript

Shawn Carson: 0:03

Yeah, I think as long as the church is willing to just play the role of only dealing with spiritual matters, I don't think we're going to change anything. But until the church catches a vision, like you've talked about Darrow and Scott, that it's all of life and it's every area of life, then then change can happen. But until then, you know, we're just going to wrestle thinking, well, maybe there is just this neutral world. That's the easiest answer, right? I'll just say it's neutral. And I'm raising my kids that way.

Luke Allen: 0:41

Hi, Friends, welcome back to another episode of ideas have consequences the podcast of the disciple nations Alliance, a show where we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. But our mission also includes to be the hands and feet of God to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected the second part of her mission. And today, most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Joining us on this podcast as you rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations in the crate, Christ honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.

Scott: 1:22

Welcome again to another episode of ideas have consequences. This is the podcast of the disciple nations Alliance. And my name is Scott Allen. I'm the president of the DNA. And I'm joined today by coworkers, Luke Allen, Shawn Carson, and Darrow Miller. So today, we're keeping it with the team. And it's great to be with you guys. How are you all doing today?

Darrow Miller: 1:43

Who in gray, good gray with you? And with the audience?

Scott: 1:47

Yeah, thank you for tuning in as well, for another episode, we're going to continue on the same topic as our last episode with Christian Overman, where we were talking about the area of education, and what's happening with that in our nations, and the importance of education in the discipling of nations. And maybe I'll just start there. I think, obviously, when we talk about discipling nations, every area is important, you know, God is concerned to see his the Bible the principles of the Bible, shaping every area of our lives and every part of culture. But if you had to pick one and say, Man is the one that really makes a difference, maybe over others, you could argue probably pretty, pretty forcefully that it would be this area of education. It's just so fundamental, you know, for the well being of, of a nation. And it seems to me guys that the enemies of the gospel in our day, have clearly understood this. And that Christians, many of our fellow Christians have kind of forgotten it. I think that that is not true. Historically, I think historically, especially if you go back to the time of the reformers, or if you go back to the early days of our own country, the United States, and people like Noah Webster, are founding fathers, the founding of Princeton, Yale, I think there really was a clear understanding that if we're really going to see Christ honored in our nation, we need to think very clearly and very biblically about this whole area of education. And they took a lot of really concrete steps to to embed Christian principles and truths at the very foundation of so much of what's happening, educationally. We've lost that largely, but others haven't. And again, in our time, I think the energy has been with the folks who are enemies of the Gospel, particularly those who are on the far left, who would be pushing this woke ideology, this kind of Neo Marxist, postmodern ideology. And they're long march through the institutions that they've really been successful out over the last, let's say, 50 to 70 years, certainly since the end of World War Two. The one area that they focused very intentionally on is education and particularly universities, schools of teacher training departments of education. And if you look at the systems of education in the United States and in the west and around the world, increasingly, they've been almost entirely captured now. I mean, it's, it's the fruit of what they've been able to accomplish. I mean, my hat hats off to them. They've been incredibly successful at discipling the nation if you will, based on their biblical or excuse me, their their A non biblical, you know, belief systems. Any thoughts on just kind of the role of education in the discipling of nations generally, and specifically, where we stand today, before we get into what we want to talk about today, which is kind of what, you know, if we begin to recover this, what does that actually look like? How do we do that? So any thoughts on just kind of the lay of the land and how we've largely kind of lost it, but others haven't? I love to hear your thoughts on this as we get rolling.

Luke Allen: 5:31

Yeah, we were mentioning this before we started just today. But on this podcast, ideas have consequences. A lot of that process of ideas as they flow through culture, and eventually become a part of our lives and the practice level and have consequences on our lives happens in the academy and in schools. So you know, all the time on this podcast, where we're unpacking these ideas, the way they affect our lives, and seeing them as, as best as possible through a biblical worldview. After a year and a half of doing this podcast all the time, the takeaway is, we need to get back in the realm of education, we needed to take back education, we need to start seeing education through a biblical worldview. And just being a part of these conversations now for over a year and a half. That's been my takeaway so many times. So I'm happy we're talking about this and making that an emphasis here. And last week, and this week. And also, as at the beginning here. For anyone who hasn't listened to our podcast last week with Christian Overman, titled Don't let schooling stand the way of education, I'd encourage you after this episode, or even right now to go back and listen to that one, because these will go together, and are meant to go together.

Shawn Carson: 6:39

I think personally, I've just been shocked that seeing the vision of education being expressed. So methodically, I guess, that, you know, as a child growing up, you just kind of that's what you do. You go to school, and then after a while you and became I became a Christian and then realizing, you know, there is a real philosophy of education that has changed dramatically over the years. And I think I wasn't, I wasn't aware of that growing up. And even in college, I was exposed to it more and more, but after becoming a believer, just seeing very starkly yeah, there's a vision here for the nation, that is being executed, and methodically planned out and purposefully, you know, brought to fruition through through education. And, and it's not what I thought it was, or what, what it should be. And, and I've been the recipient of that, in many ways. And, and I remember just very practically being exposed to the idea that evolution was just a theory. But when I was in school, it wasn't taught as a theory, it was taught as this is the truth. And when I even questioned a teacher about it, that wasn't accepted. No, this, we're not going to talk about anything, but this one, you know, and I just kind of exposed me again to the idea that there's a real purpose behind what education is doing and where it's leading us. And as an, as an older adult, now realizing, gosh, we have come a long ways in the wrong direction.

Darrow Miller: 8:24

I would add to this sort of a summary of, as you mentioned, Luke, and Scott, this podcast is called ideas have consequences. And you begin with an idea. And you follow that idea down to its logical consequences. And when you get there, that's where you're living. And for generations, we began within the Judeo Christian framework of recognizing the Creator God, Jehovah God. And his existence, created a whole set of realities. And in that set of realities, education was founded. When Darwin came along, and before Darwin, people were looking for ways to eliminate God from the conversation. When Darwin came along, he provided a theory that was plausible. So we can now have a universe where there is no God. And there are ideas that funnel from that. And when you contrast those ideas, you see very different worlds and very different concepts of education. So just not unpacking these totally, but just to mention them. When you begin with God, there's a concept of truth. If you say there is no God, there is no absolute truth. That creates a different framework for understanding education the to do. To begin with God, man, human beings are made in the image of God. If you deny God, human beings are mere animals that have come about through a process of evolution, beginning with God, parents, and we're responsible for their children's education. Today, one of the big battle lines in many countries, without God who's responsible for education, the state. And we see almost every night in the news, who, who's responsible for the kids. It's not parents, it's the state. With God, the pulpit was the place where truth was emanated to the church community and from there to the culture. When you deny God, the pulpit is replaced with the teacher's desk, and the source of all knowledge becomes the teacher. And so you have two different contexts, two different worldviews starting points, two radically different concepts of education. And education is failing today. Because it is not grounded in a biblical framework. It's grounded in an atheistic framework.

Scott: 11:55

And it has been for a while now. And so we're well down this road. I think for and now we're living through a time of transition as well, Darrow it's it's still atheism that, I think, for most of my lifetime, that atheism, you know, in our public education, or school, or schooling, you know, systems of schooling, you know, K through 12. And secondary. It kind of perpetuated what I call the myth of neutrality, right? You know, that there is no God, you know, so that was never explicit, we just won't talk about God, right, we're just never going to talk about God in reference to any subject. And that is, that is supposedly neutral, right? Whereas I think we're shifting now I know, we're shifting, we're shifting from neutrality to the positive, if you will, in collocation of a particular belief system, in our systems of public education. And it's one that's based on power, and it's based on the presuppositions of people like Rousseau and Karl Marx, all that exists, as you said, there, there is no truth. And in this new worldview, all that exists is power. And there's basically a division of the world into two groups, one that has power and one that doesn't. And everything needs to be explained in terms of, of that reality. And power in this world view to is also entirely negative. It's used for one purpose and one purpose only. And that's to exploit, to selfishly game the system to favorite yourself. And so, and furthermore, I guess, if I had one other thing, it's not, you know, in the old system that I grew up in, that was, quote, unquote, neutral. There wasn't any effort to inculcate morality or, you know, virtue that was that was something that happened earlier, in systems of education that were shaped by the Bible, that was a really important part of education was to, to help people become good, if you will, with the recognition that we're fallen sinful people. And if we want to see, you know, improvement in our communities, nations families, we've got to have people that become virtuous become. So the gospel is important in that just training in Christ's likeness and virtue. So that was all gone. When I grew up, you just there was that piece of education was eliminated. And now it's just acquisition of facts and data and knowledge. But now it is inculcation of a morality. It's just a completely upside down non biblical morality. That like you see, for example, with especially around the area of sex, sex, sex and gender, you know, they're really pushing a particular morality, if you will, a very non biblical morality. So we've moved into this new phase where Education is now explicitly pushing a particular if you will, religious viewpoint it's shed the, the pretense of of neutrality, if you will, right. So all of that is I don't need to talk so much today about all of that that's a reality. And I think it's high time for Christians to recognize it and just say this is where we're at. The question then is, what do we do? How do we, how do we respond? And what does I mean, this is really the question I'd like us to discuss today, guys is What does recovery of a biblical shaped approach to education look like? You know, because I think that that's just been so lost, the people don't even know how to get back there. We've taken so many steps away from that, that people are like lost in the woods, and they don't even know how to get back there. How do you begin to kind of recover that? And so I'd like to explore that with you a little bit today. And Dara, you mentioned several you were talking about principles from the Bible. And you could I think it'd be worth just looking at any of these principles kind of one at a time and saying, how do they shape our thinking about about education?

Luke Allen: 16:11

Hi, friends, thanks again for joining us today. We live in a world of corruption, poverty and injustice. We all know this isn't the way it should be. And help needs to come from somewhere. But who is responsible to fight poverty and bring healing to our broken communities, the government or the church? The answer is the church. But unfortunately, we have diligent neglected this responsibility. Here at the disciple nations Alliance. For the last 25 years we have worked around the world helping Christians understand that our mission is more than saving souls for heaven. As you heard me say during the introduction to the episode, our mission also includes being God's hands and feet to transform the nations to bring healing to our broken world. If this subject interests you, and you'd like to learn more, we would highly recommend you check out our most popular free video worldview training course, the Kingdom iser training program on Coram dale.com, join over a million others who have learned how to bring biblical transformation into every corner of society by signing up at quorum dale.com. Again, that is quorum do.com. Or you can find the link in the episode landing page to sign up today. Lastly, if you are enjoying this discussion, don't let the learning stop with you. Please consider sending this episode or any of your favorite episodes to a friend. And we'd appreciate it if you would also leave us a rating and review on Apple podcast or wherever you're listening. Thanks again for joining us here on ideas have consequences.

Scott: 17:36

Let's just start with the most basic principle, the one that you find right away in Genesis chapter one verse one that in the beginning, God exists and He created everything you know, and the Bible emphasizes that over and over, nothing can be understood, apart from him, because not only did he make everything, including us, but He sustains it. You know, he upholds it. He's, you know, involved in it. providentially. So, here's my question for you guys. What, what, how does that give shape to have an approach to education? I know, that's a very basic question. But I'd like to flesh that out a little bit. Because I think for a lot of people, they don't really know, you know, like, so for example, if you say, how does that affect your thinking about, let's say math or economics or any subject that you might study in school? People are like, I don't I don't know what difference that makes right. We're so used to thinking of God is separated from these things.

Luke Allen: 18:36

Yeah. Now, that's a good question. I mean, I'm excited to hear your guys's answer on this. But we all know it this this principle, God is Lord, you know, God is Lord of all or isn't Lord at all. Or we hear things like God is the source of all good things, all goodness. And yet, if that's true, Lord of all that includes everything that includes your math class that includes your physics class, when you're older, and you're off working all day digging ditches or building fences. That applies there, too. So let's make this connection though. Because it it sounds simple, but it's a little bit. It's a little bit more difficult than that just because for so long, we've been thinking in this sacred secular divide. Thanks to good old Rene Descartes, and all the guys that follow that.

Scott: 19:25

Yes, and I'm glad you brought up secret secondary divided Luke there because, you know, I think Christians have largely gone along with this over the last 50 years or more, where we've said, You're right, essentially, secular society is right God doesn't have anything to say about you know, so many subjects that you have to study in, in these in this realm of education God, God isn't involved. It's below the line. As we often say. The Bible doesn't apply to math, science, business economics. It applies only to things in the spiritual realm and applies to Church, it applies to salvation, eternal life, that it doesn't apply to the so called secular areas of life. So I think a huge part of just beginning to recover a biblical approach to education is to break that down and say, No, God, there is no such separation between God and all of those things. And so we have to think, biblically about those areas. And how do you begin to do that, and Darrow, you've done so much thinking and writing in this area? I really want to, I want you to, I remember many years ago, Darrow, you challenged me, I can't remember how we got onto the subject of communication. But I had to do something with work related to that subject of communication. And you said, you know, you need to create a biblical theology of communication. And I had no clue what you were talking about, or how did you even begin to do that? Because God and communication were like, I don't know what the connection is between those two things, right. So I think for a lot of Christians, they just don't, we've lost that ability, that art or skill of thinking biblically about these things. And to have a biblically based approach to education, you have to, you know, you have to have to recover that somehow. So let's, let's just take education itself for a second, you know, how do you think biblically about education, and I think, I want to hear your thoughts on this, or any subject, guys, but one of the ways that I found very helpful in answering your question, or just a little bit is, is you start with the word itself. And you say, is that word in the Scripture? And words are again, very important. And actually, when you on this one, it's kind of fascinating, when you look at the word education, you look in, you know, biblical Bible dictionaries, you don't find that word. It's not in the Bible. So it might be tempting to say, Oh, well, then God has nothing to say about education. But then you have to look at other words, words, like instruction, teaching, training, learning, wisdom, knowledge, and the Bible is filled with these words, right? So when you start looking at those words, you begin to and you look at the verses in the context, you begin to see that the Bible has a whole lot to say, about education, what it is, why it's important, who's supposed to do it, etc, etc. Darrell, I want to get you in on this because you've really been the one that's helped me to begin to kind of think, help our listeners to begin to think how does the Bible connect to two subjects, you pick it? You know, how do you begin to think biblically about these subjects because we're so used to thinking that the Bible doesn't apply?

Darrow Miller: 22:55

Well, we think the Bible doesn't apply because we are shaped by the sacred secular divide. So you study scripture for spiritual principles. And then you go to school to learn everything else. And,

Scott: 23:12

by the way, just just on that other authorities, right, they, you know, we kind of bow and eat other authorities then write these non Buju

Darrow Miller: 23:20

because we're not thinking comprehensively and holistically. Right. The first the father of education was Comenius, a check, reformer, and his whole focus was on education. And one of the phrases we mentioned this last week with Chris Overman, one of his famous phrases was everything must be taught to everyone. Everything must be taught to everyone. So what is that seven words? But they have shaped our concept of education for decades. Everything. God is the Lord of everything. He is the Creator of everything. So education should be talking about

Scott: 24:26

everything. You can't understand anything rightly, apart from God.

Darrow Miller: 24:32

No, that's right. And it also implies that there is a unified field of knowledge that all knowledge is integrated. Today, we teach in silos, there's no the only integration point of knowledge is evolutionism. And then we split Different disciplines apart, we don't know how to relate them. But Khomeini is understood that everything needed to be taught. And it needed to be related to the whole, totally different concept than what we have today. And then he said, and this is a totally different subject that we could do another session on. Everything must be taught to who? Everyone. And that's the concept of universal education. There that concept came out of the Bible. And it came through the mouth of Comenius. Prior to that, who was educated? Virtually no one. Maybe

Scott: 25:54

the princes, yeah, kind of the elites, I would imagine the

Darrow Miller: 25:58

elite political leaders who are wealthy could afford tutors, for their sons, and their sons Who Would Be King would get an education. Not the daughters. Not the business man's children. Not the peasants are the common peasants, not the slaves, right. Education existed? For a few. Yeah. No, everyone. Young and old, powerful, no power, men and women.

Scott: 26:39

And that, that again, everyone, everyone, Darrow, everyone, that's what Comenius said, everyone, and let's tie it to the biblical principle, it flows out of the biblical principle that God created everyone in his image. And that's right. Everyone has value has worth and has a purpose, right has a purpose and God's plan for this world, right? There's no lower class, upper class, you know, purposeless? So that's a biblical idea. Okay. That's not an idea that you get, let's say, in Darwinian evolution, or any kind of sin Oh, ism, right.

Darrow Miller: 27:14

So don't get it in pagan culture. You'll get it in pagan animistic cultures. So this is where this hierarchy comes in. And I'm white, you're black, I'm better than you. I'm male. You're female. I'm better than you. I'm young. You're old. I'm better than you.

Scott: 27:33

Right? Yes. Right. So the Bible says, No, everyone's valuable. And so everyone, because God created everyone, everyone. And because everyone has purpose, everyone needs to be educated to fulfill that purpose, right that God has for them. And what? That that's a biblically shaped approach to education. Okay, it's rooted in that principle. And I like both of those principles. There are the principle that everything is important because God created everything. And I, I want to probe that a little bit more just because I think again, for a lot of people, they don't even know how to begin to think about this. We were so trained by the sacred second or divide, or by the by the secular society that says there is no God, they just don't talk about God in relationship to anything. And so we don't even know how to begin to think about God. Let's just take math for a secondary, just that one, Sean, Luke, you guys chime into? This, it's not as easy as you think. Because if you can't, if you look up the word math, biblically, you're probably not going to find a word in the Bible. I'm almost certain. If you look up algebra, or geometry, or trigonometry, you're not going to find those words in the Bible. So it might be tempting to think, oh, the Bible has nothing to say about math. God isn't concerned about math. This is purely a human invention, right? That's wrong. Right? dere we would all agree that's wrong, because nothing exists apart from God. So how do you begin to connect those things? And Darryl, what advice practically would you give to somebody on this particular subject, and we could pick any subject but on this particular one,

Darrow Miller: 29:06

on this particular one, we live in an orderly universe. There's order to the universe. The universe is not basically chaotic. In Genesis one, Genesis one one and God in the beginning God created the heavens in the earth, verse two. And the earth was without form. And void and darkness hovered over the face of the deep. The first part of creation that there is no order. There's just raw material. And what did God do after that? He created order He brought Cosmos out of chaos, by his words by speaking.

Scott: 30:08

And specifically, we would see here the beginning of the things that we take for granted because they're around us every day. But just the orderly motion, for example of the planets, the moon, the sun and the stars, the sun comes up the sunsets, seasons change, it's all very orderly. Right? It functions according to what science would call natural law. Yes. Where do these laws come from? Why is it orderly? Right? I mean, again, I think we take it for granted. But actually people that think deeply they don't they go, this is one of the most amazing things about the universe is that it functions according to this kind of orderly design, you wouldn't if Darwin's right, you wouldn't really expect it, frankly, you know, you would? Where does this come from? Right, go ahead,

Darrow Miller: 30:57

read to you. Genesis 116. God made two great lights, the greater light to govern, to govern, use that word govern here, yes, to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars, God set them in the expanse of the sky, to give light on the earth, to govern the day and the night. God created the planets. But this was not a disordered creation. It was ordered. It was Cosmos, not chaos. And the planets were made, to govern. And to help us govern. Where do maps come from? We measure distances, we human beings measure distances, we look at the stars, whereas north, we look at the stars, and there's order in the universe. Now we go to the discoveries of the last 30 years when we're looking at DNA and studying DNA. And that's not the DNA of the DNA.

Scott: 32:39

RNA molecule here, right? This is the DNA molecule, the basic instruction manual. It's embedded inside of our cells and genes and things, right? It's

Darrow Miller: 32:48

the basic instruction manual, it's words, it's

Scott: 32:54

code, it's literally instructions,

Darrow Miller: 32:57

it's instructions. Where did they come from? They came from God. And it was in the last few years that we discovered this code. We should have expected to find it. Because God established cosmos and not chaos. So math, has incredible things we can learn from God and His creation. There's a logical connection between math. And this is where a math teacher or a math somebody who studied math, will they develop a theology of math? How will they relate their vocational area to the fact that there is a God in the universe? This is such a basic concept. And we don't even think in these terms. But

Scott: 34:03

we have to begin to think in these terms again, and I don't want this to be sounding too philosophical for people we just it's not it's basic. It's basically I have to ask the question, What difference does it make that God created everything? There's two principles, DERA that you're alluding to one is the principle of that God exists and is the creator and sustainer of everything, and he created an orderly universe, and that's the very foundation for mathematics. But the other principle is that in science and science, the other principle is that He created us in His image in order to govern over creation in order to understand the way that he made the universe at least at some level, so that we could apply it to govern over the world that he made. And this is really where you get math it's a to me it's it's it's really stunning when you think that when you look at these laws laws of nature, whether it's gravity or physics, or whatever it may be, it can be described. Mathematically, in other words, there's a language that literally describes the functioning of that, that's that we can, that we can, we can use to govern the created world. But that we take it all for granted. And when you're studying it in a public school, God has never mentioned right in relationship to any of this. It's just, it's kind of sprung out of nowhere, right? But we ought not to do that as Christians, right? Because we know why these things function in this way, and why we can use tools like math, and it needs to be taught in that way and understood in that way. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Yeah.

Darrow Miller: 35:46

Well, in addition to understanding the relationship between God and math, what does a child need a theology of the child? What is the child and you've said it, a child is the image of God. And a child is filled with potential. Potential to think, to create, to reason to explore, to discover, these are all words that are related to a human being who is made in the image of God. If we're not made in the image of God, those words have no meaning. What does our modern world say? What is a child? A child is a product of evolution. We're all products of evolution, we're merely animals. A child comes into the world empty. And what does schools do? They open the head of the child and pour information in. They pour data in. Because the concept is that the child is empty, and their minds need to be filled. So you create an educational system where the teachers dump and the children regurgitate. And that's what we think education is. That's not education. It's hardly schooling. But it's not education, because of a faulty view of a child, because of a non biblical view of a child. And the state wants to fill the child's head with certain ideology. And this is why state schools are so dangerous today.

Scott: 38:16

Yeah, I think any system of education that doesn't acknowledge gods, I mean, these two basic ideas that God is the creator and the sustainer of everything, and nothing can be understood apart from him, he's the most important thing to understand about any subject, and secondly, that were made in His image, to govern over creation, to, to rule over creation, to steward creation, any system of education that doesn't acknowledge those two principles that denies them? Is, is Christians should have nothing to do with I mean, it's, it's, you know, it destroys

Darrow Miller: 38:59

children. And it destroys society.

Scott: 39:03

I mean, we right we have an obligation biblically to raise our children in the knowledge of the fear of the Lord. And that's just that's one of the most basic things you just have to grapple with. That's our responsibility biblically. And we wouldn't think as parents of putting children into a, you know, an Islamic madrasa for Christians, right, because they're going to be trained in a false on biblical worldview. That's dangerous. Well, that's exactly where we're at today. And so we have to reject that we have to come back and say, I'm going to take responsibility for this area of training of my children. And starting with basic basic foundations and let allow them to go back

Darrow Miller: 39:49

Scott to where you were a few minutes ago. And what we were talking about a few minutes ago with two words. The universe is Intel. Gible Why is it intelligible? Because there's a creator. And he made the universe intelligible.

Scott: 40:11

And he made us with the capacity to understand it to some degree,

Darrow Miller: 40:15

he made us for intelligence. And intelligence on the human level allows us to discover the intelligible that's there in front of us. Right. But if we think that everything came about by chance, out of nothing out of chaos, and we are mere animals, you don't have the intelligibility of the universe, and the intelligence of the human being for those things to come together. And these are absolutely fundamental. They are not to be Oh, that's so philosophical. So abstract. No, it's totally practical. Are you made in the image of God? If you are, that means something. If you're a child of Darwin, that means something. And don't let anybody tell you it doesn't. Go ahead, Luke.

Luke Allen: 41:22

Yeah, I want to push back on this a little bit. Well, first of all, are you saying that you cannot have an education if God is ignored? If

Scott: 41:32

you can have a bad education.

Darrow Miller: 41:36

And that's not education. We have a horrible I wouldn't call what's happening today, educational, it's the correct word is indoctrination. It's indoctrination. And we should call it that. If you send your kid to a state school today, you don't send them for an education. You send them for indoctrination. And you need to look that clearly. Right in the face to make. Do you understand that? And if you are naive, and say, oh, there's neutrality. I'll send my kid to state sponsored school, and everything is neutral. That's you're lying to yourself. It's not neutral. It's not true. And the way it is today, as far as it is, today, you're you're being taught an ideology, a cultural Marxist ideology.

Luke Allen: 42:40

Yeah. I agree with you, I'm gonna push you back again, I'm playing.

Darrow Miller: 42:45

Feel free to

Luke Allen: 42:48

I'm putting myself here as say, I'm one of the new atheists. If I were listening to this, and I said, you know, I heard you say, well, there is no education, apart from God, God is the designer of education on the dead center of everything. My response to that would be that sounds so arrogant, you know, you're claiming that you are the only source of education? How do you how do you respond to that someone who who has that pushback?

Darrow Miller: 43:12

I would say, it's the question of truth. And all atheists believe believes in truth. And we have a lot of ground to talk on. And an old education, an old an old theist wants truth to be at the center of all education, the pursuit of truth. So we would be in agreement. Let's pursue truth, you come as an atheist don't come as a Christian truth is what we're after. Let's move forward together. The New Atheists want nothing to do with truth. They reject the concept of truth. And as you know, they have now rejected the concept of reality and reason. Because the only thing that counts for anything is human experience and subjectivity. They are not interested in truth. They're interested in feeling good and well being.

Scott: 44:31

Yeah, I would answer it slightly differently. I agree with everything Darrow has just said. But I think what I would push back on Luke to somebody said, while you seem really arrogant, I would, I would say, you know, again, there is no neutrality, every approach to education. out there every approach that's on tap, if you will, is rooted in a certain set of presuppositions. The only question is, which one of those sets of presuppositions These are basic beliefs. There is no God, no, there is a God, human beings are just cosmic accident and have no value. No human beings are made in God's image and have value and dignity, which ones of these presuppositions actually make sense of the world that we actually live in? And make sense of the way that we live and give you know that, that give purpose and meaning to our lives? Right? So it's not it's not I'm arrogant? No, we everyone has certain presuppositions, right? If you if you reject mine, fine, you got another one? And I could, I could make the same set of claims to you how arrogant you think yours are true, right? It's not an issue of arrogance. It's just an issue of what, which ones of these things are true for Christians? We know. I mean, we know we are convinced that Jesus is Lord and the Bible is true. I'm not talking about non believers, I'm just talking about Christians. Do we live this way? We don't largely in this area of education. And I think we don't because it's so enculturated. You know, I've often thought about this, especially very talking about public schools. You know, we just hardly give a second thought to it. This is what you do your kids you know, we mourn and certain age they go to, you know, school, and we're so excited about that we get them to close in the lunchbox, and, and then later reading and writing and arithmetic, they learn reading, writing, and arithmetic. And later, something really important happens. And you better not touch that this is like, Man, this is super sensitive. Now, football, right? I mean, you, you got all of these sports, you know, wrapped up in public education, there's reasons that people have just gone along with whatever is going on in the culture in the area of education. So it's an area that I think it's really hard for us to stop and say, Okay, I know what, you know what, right? I mean, kind of what the culture does and what the norms are. But to stop and kind of question and challenge that, and I think that's where we're at, we've got to, we've got to start doing that, you know, because it's dripped, we've drifted so far, from what the Bible, a biblical approach to education. Darrell, you've been helpful just now in this area of mathematics. And I think that's really good, you know, as we have to learn the skill, again, of thinking biblically about every subject, and you helped us to do that in math. And I think this is part A big part of what it means to recover a Christian approach to education. And we could do similar exercises. And it would be fun to do that with economics and with law, and with any, any area, you know, all of it has to be understood in relationship to God. And the Bible. And God's creation, as you said, Darrow this is part of our Christian theology to is that God reveals reality and truth to us through His word, but also through his works right through the world that he's made, right? So we don't have time to unpack all of that, but I just want to put it on the table for people right? Now, we got to redevelop that skill of thinking biblically about every area and get rid of this idea that God doesn't, God and His Word, don't speak to these certain areas. So it's just fine to go to whatever school you know, they just need to learn, like you say, reading, writing and arithmetic, God doesn't factor in at all. That's wrong, that's wrong and faulty. And it's going to lead to a kind of shaping training, if you will. Where people will grow up as Gnostics where God will become a very small kind of part of their lives that relate to spiritual things in church and nothing else. And that's not Christianity, that's not a biblical Christianity.

Shawn Carson: 48:48

We would probably all agree that education is downstream from culture. Right? When we talk about politics, being downstream from culture, I think education is also downstream from culture. And it seems to me like what we're talking about, there's been in at least in the United States, there's been a culture change. We used to be grounded more in a biblical understanding of reality. And God was the center of that. And over the last 100 years or more, we've, we've, we've separated that saying, Well, God's really involved in the sacred things and not the rest of life. So we'll just put him in that category and leave him there. And that's for the church to worry about the rest of the world will take care of. So I think, you know, cuz I think Well, I grew up in Mayberry, almost, you know, so has has culture changed in Mayberry just like it has in Phoenix, Arizona? Yes, it has. Absolutely. As education changed, yes, it has. Now a lot of them will. They wouldn't agree with me. They wouldn't agree that saying no, we'll look we're not even as far down the stream as you are We don't have these problems that you have in Phoenix. We don't have those. Well, yeah, but the thing is, is that it seems like everything we're talking about is if God's the purpose of God's the center of God's the, the first the Creator, then that's where it all starts. But if you move away from that, and you say, No, it's really not God, it's just naturalistic, well, then you do get a different kind of educational system. And I think, for Christians to realize, no, we there has been a culture shift in the United States, you have thought you grew up thinking this way. It's not that way anymore, I just think we need to just call it out, like really come to grips

Scott: 50:41

with reality.

Luke Allen: 50:43

I've heard that a lot of times with my younger friends. And you know, what do you guys want to do for your kids, when they get older in school options, a lot of them say, oh, I want to go find, you know, the small public school in the small town. And I think maybe, okay, on the practice level, you might not get into as many of the crazy things that you might see in like a, you know, a bigger school and, you know, Portland or something that's nearest big city to me, but it's still there, it's at the idea level, if God's ignored, what are going to be the consequences of that that idea is absolutely critical to the way you format the entirety of your education. And I wouldn't even say that for public schools, you can also see that clearly, in a lot of Christian schools. That's right. If God isn't integrated into, you know, God will be integrated into that Christian school into Bible class and theology class. But as soon as you go the next door down, and you enter physics lab, or even history, God's not mentioned. And therefore, you're getting a very similar education that ignores God, at least in those subjects. That's my point.

Shawn Carson: 51:42

I think as long as the church is willing to just play the role of only dealing with spiritual matters, I don't think we're going to change anything. But until the church catches a vision, like you've talked about Darrow and Scott, that it's all of life, and it's every area of life, then then change can happen. But until then, you know, we're just going to wrestle thinking, well, maybe there is just this neutral world. That's the easiest answer, right? I'll just say it's neutral. And reason why kids are that way.

Scott: 52:12

Yeah, it's,

Luke Allen: 52:14

it's in the world loves saying it's neutral, too. I was listening to Neil deGrasse Tyson this morning, and he was saying, you know, what's with all these, he was having a debate on Christianity versus religion versus science. And he was like, what? I don't see I don't see us atheists to go in and picketing outside your Sunday school classes, trying to teach you guys atheism. So why are you Christians coming into our schools and saying that they you need to teach, you know, bring your religion into our schools, they love that separation. They love thinking schools neutral, and it's just facts based. So you're playing right into that game?

Scott: 52:47

Yeah, the neutrality of public education or public schooling is, is it's, it's, you know, the pretense of it is that, you know, we're not proactively saying, Hey, welcome to the first school of atheism, you know, and we're going to teach your kids atheism, none of that is said, they just simply don't talk about God just just completely ignore it and neglect it. And supposedly, that's neutral.

Darrow Miller: 53:11

But with COVID, parents have discovered what's going on in schools. It's changing. That's why parents are so upset. It's not neutral. It's not reading, writing and arithmetic. Schools are teaching kindergarteners first and second graders about transgender identity. And are you really a boy? Or are you really a girl

Scott: 53:39

or things like if you're white, you are by virtue of yourself. That's

Darrow Miller: 53:42

my point.

Scott: 53:43

You're an oppressed

Darrow Miller: 53:44

polar aware now of what's going on in school and those who are naively thinking it was neutral or realizing it's not neutral, and what they're teaching should not be being taught in school. Yeah, that's right. I'd like to, if, if I may, I'd like to go back to a question that we had earlier that you had earlier, Scott, and that's how do we begin again? Yes. And I'd like to address that for a minute. But I also know one of the tendencies and we say it ourselves. Let's keep it practical. And to begin again, you don't start with the practical. You have to start with the theological. Because the theological will determine the practical and we live in an age where we want things to happen quick. So we see this isn't working. Let's do what's going to work. And we we create some program. Yeah, but we aren't thinking through why what was happening before was not working and what We're thinking just because we create a new program, things will be different.

Scott: 55:04

Yeah, Dara, you're, you're you're you're so right about, you know, this. It, let's say practice practical practice. You know, it's all rooted in earlier it's root for our practice is rooted in a principle which is rooted in a paradigm, right? Everything flows out of these deeper beliefs, right? So it doesn't, you know, chain, it's kind of like you unless you just change the practices without changing the deeper beliefs. It's a little bit like trying to treat you know, treat cancer without getting to the root of it and just putting a new bandaid on it. That's exactly. You're not going to, you're not going to do it. It needs to work. It needs to work its way out practically. You know, that's for sure. But it's got to start doesn't start doesn't start there. Yeah, it's a really great,

Darrow Miller: 55:52

let me refer to a book that James Davidson Hutter wrote 20 years ago, maybe 25 years ago called the death of character. And it's a study of what happened in education. From the founding of the country until today, and character was one of the main reasons for education in early America. It was knowledge and character. And over time, as we got rid of God, we got rid of character. No moral framework, no moral universe character is not important. What's important is knowledge. And that's where we got today. And he makes a point in his book. Again, this is about 20 years ago, he said, even Dobson, who recognizes the problem,

Scott: 56:57

talking about James Lawson, game stops

Darrow Miller: 56:59

and a focus on the family, okay, the king of family. And, you know, and he said, Even James Dobson, even though he understands, and everybody understands, we have a dearth of character today in this country. And James Dobson knows it. But he would never do what has to be done to deal with that issue. What Dobson won't. And then this was the killer. He said, Dobson, won't do it. Because in order to have character, you have to begin with a theological vocabulary. And we no longer have a theological vocabulary, we have a psychological vocabulary. And that vocabulary creates the framework for solving problems.

Scott: 58:04

Yeah, Darren, let me go ahead. Sorry, I don't want to cut you off.

Darrow Miller: 58:07

He was right. Yeah, we need to go back to theology. And we need to go back to a theology of what it means to be human, ie the image of God, we need to go back in this case, what we're talking about today, to develop in a theology of education. Not just building new school buildings, and doing religious education in those school buildings. We need to start with a theology of education.

Scott: 58:39

Yeah, let me let me just unpack a little bit of what you're saying there, Darrell. I think when we talk about character in my mind, we're talking about things like just you know, your basic moral behaviors do you lie is lying Okay. What about stealing? What about cheating? What about a hitting somebody? What Uh, what about smash and grab and just taking everything you can out of the your neighborhood Nordstrom store is that okay? So we're not teaching that anymore. Right? And I think if you look at that from biblically, the root of this is actually the Genesis three fall right man is a fallen right we've we've rebelled against God and we become broken, our relationships are broken. And we're inclined, there's this inclination, more inborn inclination, you know, that we get from the first I had up to, to do wrong to cheat the lie steal to be selfish. And unless that's changed in a person, society is going to fall apart. We're seeing right now in the United States, everything's falling apart. Okay. Crime is, you know, on dramatically increased or you can go into the schools and you look at a classroom and kids are out of control and there's no you know, we you know, we don't discipline anymore. Because right that that required that moral framework that you were talking about there that we don't believe in anymore, right? So, biblically, we have to start with the idea that no man is two things. Number one man is, you know, sinful, broken, and redeemable right? He can be redeemed not perfectly at least until glorification, if you will, but that, you know, and that has been a How does that happen? That happens through faith in Jesus Christ through regeneration. But it also happens through training, right training in righteousness, right? There's this element of I mean, so much of education in the Bible is actually talked about in this ways. It's training to do what is good, what is right. You know, it's not that we can get that out, apart from the saving work of Jesus. But it's something that is so critical and vital and completely missing today, as you said, Darrow this has just gone. And well, okay, let me let me qualify that it's not gone. It's been replaced. We are doing moral education right now. But it's a moral education, based on a whole unbiblical belief system. Right. So you again, you see this, particularly in the area of sex and gender and things like that. So, yeah, we're seeing this chaos, this moral chaos in the world around us today, because we're no longer doing that, that doesn't shape the way that we do education. But biblically, it did. And it does need to do that, that needs to be a really key component in that, and it, it's rooted in just this understanding that, yeah, we, I think of the famous philosopher, you know, Decart, I think was not No, no, not Descartes, Rousseau, the French philosopher, and he's just so pivotal in Western thought, and him Karl Marx, you name it, they believe that people weren't falling, they were largely born good. But then it was the structures of society that corrupted them, you know, Rousseau said, you know, man is born free, right? But everywhere, he's in chains. So what needs to change isn't the person it's not the heart, it's not the mind, they're fine. It's all the structures of society, we can just kind of reorganize and restructure society, then we'll get the perfect society, this kind of utopian idea. And that idea really is what shapes modern education, it's not people aren't the problem. structures of society are the problem, right? They need

Luke Allen: 1:02:32

to be challenged. So and because of that, when you when you're bringing in new ideology into the classroom, your your, your goal there is to continue to go to younger younger classes, you know, the sooner you can get them before the world does, or some other, you know, idea or ideology gets them, the sooner you can imprint that on their, their open slate. So that's why with these things, these crazy ideologies, we see them going, they're not stopping up in the, you know, the boardroom or the workplace, they go into the schools, they go all the way down to kindergarten. And we have to be careful of that.

Darrow Miller: 1:03:09

Here's something to hang your hat on. Pagan ideology leads to pagan sexuality. And we have an pagan ideology. And it is producing a pagan sexuality. And that has been promoted to preschool kids.

Scott: 1:03:34

Yes, that's correct arrow. I mean, it has fancier names than pagan but essentially, that's, that's what it is, you know, it's, you know, we've we've left the neutrality idea behind and now we're fully religious again, but it's a pagan religion, so pagan

Darrow Miller: 1:03:49

religion, and it's, like, fully religious, and we're connecting the religion to something very basic sexuality.

Scott: 1:04:00

Yes. And it's, it's, it's, you know, that that alone is so incredibly destructive. But yeah, those

Darrow Miller: 1:04:08

of you that are listening and are interested, pickup Scott's in my book, The toxic new religion, because that's what we talk about in this book.

Scott: 1:04:19

So to recover a biblical approach to education, we have to recover, you know, this element that people are fallen and sinful. And, you know, there needs to be a training and righteousness, there needs to be a training in virtue or in character, and that certainly has to include a knowledge and an invitation to respond to the gospel. That includes everything from disciplining your own children, which again, I think Christian parents have just almost entirely neglected this because of the culture right? You know, that's a big part of instruction. Biblically. You So education biblically is discipline. And that includes discipline in the classrooms as well, right? I mean, so all of this just has to be, we have to kind of start anew and say, What shape is this? What you know, what does this look like the evil has to be punished, good has to be rewarded. Again, somehow that has to be a part of the system of education that we we develop, if we're wanting to do it biblically.

Luke Allen: 1:05:27

I'm just looking here at these these core principles of education, we've already talked about that God is Lord of all, that's really where you have to start. Just now we were talking about how, in order to educate, well, you have to know that man is fallen prone to sin, and evil, but is redeemable and that that is one of the parts of the education can play is in that sanctification process of helping students become more Christ, like throughout their education. And

Scott: 1:05:55

let me just make let me just put a just if I could look, just interrupt you there. Because I think what Christians tend to do is we tend to put these in very separate boxes, there's discipline, displaying my children, you know, correcting their wrong behavior. And then there's education, teaching math, science, whatever it is. And those are really separate things, right? They don't connect. The Bible doesn't separate them in that way. It's all as I think they're you were saying earlier, it's all a kind of, there's a holistic connection between all of these things, right. And so we have to kind of not wall these things off, we have to think biblically, all of this is shaping a person shaping their brain, their mind their character, this is biblical education. It's not just brain, it's everything. So I'm sorry, looking at,

Luke Allen: 1:06:42

yeah, and then two other principles. I don't know if we'll have time for these today. But every life does have dignity, it is valuable. There is a purpose in this fallen world, on this side of heaven. And I think education plays a role there absolutely. In helping students understand what what their purpose is, in this world. Everyone's going to go on eventually, after we graduate and go on into an occupation to a mission field, as we often say, whether that's building roads or being a teacher, what, what is God's purpose for us in that ministry, in the role that we play, and then another key area that we won't be able to discuss the day we've discussed in past podcast, but we're also going to cover in the future is that God has made us in His image to rule over creation. And education, ideally, should be showing students how they can rule over creation and fulfill those first, those first two commissions in Genesis to be stewards of creation and to have dominion over it. And throughout our education, we should be learning how to do that well, and thinking critically about how we can do that. I mean, that first principle there, every life has dignity, value and purpose in this fallen world. How Should education be pointing students towards that principle? Practically?

Scott: 1:08:05

Yeah, I think this question of purpose of this is really a clarifying question, what's the purpose of education? Okay. And for most people, including Christians, they would say things today, like, well, the purpose of education is so that, you know, I can, you know, graduate college and get a good job and earn a decent paycheck and, and retire comfortably and play golf and, you know, right, I mean, that's, it's, or they might add a kind of a social aspect to it, it's so that I can get my kids into the right schools so that they can get into the right group and get into that elite class and be part of the membership and that elite group, or whatever it is, so everyone,

Darrow Miller: 1:08:46

what is the ideology that is framing? What you just said?

Scott: 1:08:53

Yeah, I think that goes back to the old kind of modern, you know, idea of education, but we've completely absorbed that materialistic idea, we completely absorbed that we don't even question that, like, most people just go, yeah, that's why you go to school, right? That's why you go to school, what else is there you know,

Darrow Miller: 1:09:13

so I think education and make money

Scott: 1:09:15

and make money, get a job and make money, get into the right group, whatever it is. But if you but if you you know, this is where I think it's okay, just stop think biblically about that. What is the purpose of education? What is in other words in a dancer that you have to ask, what's the purpose of man? Why are we here? What are we supposed to be doing? And Luke, you you mentioned two huge things. Number one, we're supposed to be rightly governing creation, right and moving over creation and causing it to, you know, to flourish and thrive. Right. So that's, that's one part of what it means to be a human being. I think a second part is God's called us to be about this role of redemption. It's a fallen world and He gives us a role to play in the redemption of this fallen world. You know, what role has God given everyone has a role to play in that right? Your life there is often say your life counts. The most important thing between Jesus and His return is your own life, right? This idea that your life really matters, because God's unfolding a redemptive plan and to be educated there for us to be prepared to fulfill that plan. Now, what difference would that make in your own thinking on education? That's very different than just get a job and be happy and be comfortable? Isn't it? How does that shape but approach to education? It's different than that? And again, most Christians, we don't think about it, we just don't think. Go ahead.

Luke Allen: 1:10:46

It's completely different. This to me, though, sounds I mean, what's the difference between this and discipleship? Really, these are various, you know, synonymous with each other. And

Scott: 1:10:54

again, the Bible doesn't distinguish it doesn't separate our silo things that we do. We think of discipleship in a particular silo. And it's separated from education. That's something that happens in schools. Discipleship happens in my small group, or whatever it is, or in my one on one breakfast meetings. But the Bible doesn't separate things like that. It's all part of the same package. Education, in many ways, is discipleship. It ought to be ought to be discipleship. Yeah, Shawn Darrow, we're getting ready to wrap up. But I'd love to hear any kind of thoughts that you have, as we as we bring this real, I think we're just touching on this really important subject. But I again, it's so important for Christians to go back and say, what does it mean to have a biblically shaped approach to education? Again, there's nothing probably more important than this area of education if we want to see positive change in our nation.

Shawn Carson: 1:11:48

No, I just think I think you're hitting on it there. The end is just because I was thinking if I'm a student, going to a state university, or, or a public school or whatever, as a believer, what should my paradigm be? As I go to school?

Scott: 1:12:03

Yeah, what what, what is that basic framework, that shape that's shaping the way I think about this, this thing? We have to ask that question. If we don't, we'll go along with whatever paradigm is given to us by the culture. And right now, that's a really toxic framework. So

Luke Allen: 1:12:21

as parents with the with your kids coming home from school, you know, what you learn today? Help them pull that out of what they're learning, you know, a lot of what we learn if you're actually being educated, you come back from math class, and you talk about the facts that you learned. And it makes sense. as a, as a parent, you can point out to your kids, why does this make sense? Why is their order here and kind of lead them in that journey to see God? In history classes? Why did these ideas matter? Why are you learning about the French Revolution here, you know, this isn't just dates and dead people, this actually plays plays a part in the overall story that Gods weaving throughout history, and make those connections for them. And as a student, you can do that as well, if your teacher isn't leading you down that that through that process, which ideally they should be, you can still do it as a student, as long as it's a truth based education, you're going to be able to see God throughout it. That's separate, though, from the ideological side, or the philosophical side of education, where it's really just an indoctrination class. And there's, there's not much good to see there. Besides, this is what not to do. So I would, I would kind of put those in two camps. One of them is more in the knowledge camp. And one of them more is in the, you could say wisdom camp. Proverbs rightly differentiates those. One of them is facts and truth. The other one is the way we see our lives and the way that God has created for us to live. Yes. And, yes, if the if the wisdom part is removed, it's going to be filled by some other worldview. And oftentimes, it's just a well, it is antithetical, and you can you can point that out.

Darrow Miller: 1:13:58

This would be another interesting discussion that you've thrown in here, Luke, if you think of. You have up here wisdom, understanding, knowledge, facts, data. What's below data?

Scott: 1:14:24

Bits and Bytes, I guess,

Darrow Miller: 1:14:27

bytes and bits.

Luke Allen: 1:14:28

That would be an interesting discussion. That's something I've been thinking about where

Darrow Miller: 1:14:32

where it is so much of education deal with today on the lower part of that spectrum, where needed to be dealing with wisdom, and understanding, so it'd be another sort of slice of this educational. What are we doing today?

Scott: 1:14:56

Yes, absolutely. I think it's there's a crying need right now all over the world for Christians is to the degree that they have influence in the education of other people or even themselves, to recognize just how far off track our systems and structures culturally, in this area of education have gone off the rails and have become destructive. And we need to not just go along with that slippery slope, we need to kind of be very faithful biblically in this area of education, with our children with ourselves with anyone that you know, we have influence on educationally. And and it's not just as simple as putting them in Christian schools, because a lot of the we have to go deeper than that we have to come back. And we have to say what does a biblically shaped approach to education look like? And we don't have to, by the way, we don't have to develop that whole area of thought from scratch. It's been developed. Actually, there are mentioned Comenius, really great Christian thinkers, and our great universities grew out of biblical presuppositions, we've just lost it. And it's not simply praying at the beginning of the day, the school day and then doing secular education, like so many Christian schools do. It's recovering that older understanding that truly Biblical understanding that's rooted in principles like god exists as the creator and the sustainer of all things and nothing could be understood, rightly apart from him. Human beings are made in His image, to rightly rule on governance and create, you know, this, create new resources were fallen, we need to be redeemed, we need to be trained in righteousness, you know, these kinds of principles. And our purpose in this world is to be part of God's redemptive plan. These things need to shape our whole approach to education, it's going to look entirely different. So that's the crying need for the day, guys. Right. So what I guess the question is, what role can what role What role is God calling you to play in that? That's, that's what I'd like to just leave you with today. What role is God calling you to play in that? What do you need to do differently? So guys, thanks for really terrific discussion today on it's such an important topic will. This is like so many of these topics, we'll kind of have to circle back to it because there's so much more to say, but it's just great to talk about it today with you. Thanks for an engaging discussion. And thank you all for listening to another episode of ideas have consequences, the podcast.

Luke Allen: 1:17:50

Thank you for listening. A couple things before we leave today. Again, if you have not listened yet to last week's episode, don't let schooling stand in the way of education with Christian Overman and Darrow Miller, we would highly recommend that episode for you if you're interested in continuing to unpack with us God's design for education. Also, I'd like to recommend Darrow Miller his last book, which last week's episode was named after, don't let schooling stand in the way of education, a biblical response to the crisis and public education. This book will help you take a much deeper dive than we can do here and a podcast or two, and it was written to help force you to rethink education. As the founder of classical conversations leave Wharton puts it. This book is one of the best collections of reasons I know for Christian parents to rethink the purpose and goal of education. The ideas have consequences podcast is brought to you by the disciple in nations Alliance. To learn more about our ministry. You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube, or on our website, which is disciple nations.org. Thanks again for listening and we hope you're able to join us here next week on ideas have consequences.