The Imago Dei

What is your purpose as a Christian? To glorify God? To become Christlike and shine His light? Yes, but how… where does God most clearly lay out His purpose for humanity? In Genesis. This is when God created the world overflowing with beauty and potential, placed humans in it, and presented His first commision for us. Together we will unpack what it means to be made imago Dei, in the image of God. Understanding this concept is critical, and there are consequences if we do not. Learn how an understanding of imago Dei can change individuals, businesses, communities, and nations so that they flourish in the mission God’s given them.

• Episode Landing Page
• Disciple Nations Alliance Website

Chapters

• 1:05 The importance of understanding imago Dei
• 22:45 Creativity is biblical
• 26:00 Worldviews that reject imago Dei
• 29:11 How do people not see that we’re made in the image of God?
• 34:05 Look to Genesis 1 and 2 to learn about what it means to be human.
• 40:25 How did the Fall affect the creation mandate?
• 53:01 How can you fulfill the creation mandate?
• 59:07 When and why did Christians and non-Christians alike forget imago Dei?
• 1:09:09 Conclusion

Transcript

Scott: 0:00

I just think it's so profound this idea that God has made us in such a way that we can actually take this world and we can leave it better than we found it like we can leave it more wealthy, more prosperous, more beautiful.

Luke Allen: 0:26

Hi Friends Welcome to Ideas have consequences the podcasts of the disciple nations Alliance, where we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. But our mission also includes to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected the second part of our mission. And today, most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.

Scott: 1:04

Well, welcome again to another episode of ideas have consequences. This is the podcast of the disciple nations Alliance. I'm Scott Allen, the president of the DNA, and I'm joined today by my dear friends and co workers, Darrow Miller, Luke Allen, Dwight VOGT And Shawn Carson, and today we're going to talk about what does it mean to be made in the image of God? We this is a subject that we've touched on many times, but I feel like you can never never cover this one enough. It's just such a profound truth. And we see it in Genesis, chapter one, verses 26 and 27. What does it mean to be made in God's image, and I think a lot of evangelicals have some idea, obviously, of what this means. And they know that it has to do with human worth and human value and maybe certain capacities that we have the capacity to love, for example, because God is love. And so we can love. We can love God, we can love other people. But I think there's real kind of holes in our understanding of what, what it means to be made in God's image. And we want to kind of focus in today on a couple of these, these holes or gaps that I think are really essential to human development, human flourishing human purpose. The first one, and we'll probably just focus on this one today is just this idea that being made in God's image is being made with this capacity to rule to have dominion over over creation, to take what God has made in creation, this magnificent creation, that God unfolds in Genesis chapter one, in its vast array, and then he puts us in the garden, not just to consume it, but to do something with it, to take it and apply our own creativity, and to create new innovations and essentially push back a push forward the garden into the rest of the world, and to fill the earth with this amazing goodness and beauty of God. So he's given us this amazing potential and capacity, to to rule over creation to create innovate to make this world better, actually better than we found it. I think that's a missing piece of theology for a lot of Christians. Because when they think, Oh, what is the purpose of Christian life, you know, it's to glorify God, and to live a holy life. And those are all true. But it doesn't really have any relationship or connection to this world, or our activity in the world. And yet, that's right there in Genesis chapter one. And by the way, this isn't just a mandate that God gives to men. It's something that he gives to men and women to Adam and Eve, we all have this, God given capacity to create, to innovate, to have dominion, this is shared equally between male and female. So what does that mean? And that's what we want to really flesh out today. Because understanding this is the beginning of so much, especially if you're in this world of Christian Community Development or if you're wanting to see the world improve and and you know, overcome poverty and begin to flourish. So, guys with that, let's just dive in. What does it mean for us to have dominion that's that's an aspect of this creation. Again, I think we neglect sometimes.

Darrow Miller: 4:36

I would say we need to go back to what we always do on this podcast, and that is worldview. And we don't think as you're saying, Scott, the way we should be thinking because we have largely been impacted by an atheistic and materialistic worldview And we see people who are poor as people who are victims. We see them as consumers of resources, and they don't have many resources. So the way you help them is to give them resources. And in the industry, as it were, that would be called need based development. You go into a community, whether it would be a poor community, the United States or a poor community overseas. And you ask the people in the community, what is your need? And so they tell you, well, we need water, we need education, we need money, we need this, we need that. And there's a whole list of things. But when you start with that question, what do you need? What does that create in the person? You're asking that question of, oh, I'm going to tell them what I need. And they are going to provide it for me. And you have this victim mentality, and you have the mentality that development is primarily receiving things from other people. And that's because of an atheistic, materialistic worldview. But we're not atheists, God exists. He is the Creator. He's the creator of the universe. And he has made us in His image. We're not victims, we are made to be creative. And what we need to be asking is not what do you need? But what do you have? What has God put in your context? Whether it's in your life personally? What are the gifts, talents and abilities you have? And you have them many, maybe you don't see them? And what is there in the community that are resources for you to be creative with? So I think we need to answer that question, starting with a worldview perspective, because two different worldviews are going to answer that question very differently. And we need to consciously be functioning as Christians from a biblical worldview. Were God's, before he was savior, before we needed a Savior in Genesis three, God was creator. And he made us in His image to be creative.

Scott: 7:43

Yeah, let's let's start there, Darrow because I think that, well, those are all excellent points. You know, Genesis chapter one, in the beginning, God, the very first verb is created, right? He's, he's this creative Creator, who makes this vast, it says, this vast array, that's the way that it's described in Genesis to a vast array of plants and animals and stars, and this amazingly diverse, beautiful, magnificent work of art, this creation of his and he calls it good, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's really beautiful to him, it's very precious to him, you know, he's God is a creator, very much like an artist, you know, just using his, his infinite imagination to make this magnificent creation. And then he at the crescendo of that creative work, he makes us write this human beings, and places them in creation in the garden. And then he essentially does something that I think is just amazing, he says, I want you to kind of carry on with the work that I have been doing. In other words, take what I have created, all that I've made. And now I'm going to give you this job describe, we're going to make you in my image. And I'm going to give you a job description, essentially a task to rule over the creation. And that doesn't, you know, that doesn't mean just sit on a throne and be passive, it means to be actively applying our own creativity to this world that God has made to take that garden and kind of expand it and fill the earth. That's another thing that God keeps saying to us early on in Genesis as he wants us to fill the earth, you know, with His goodness, His blessing his bounty, you know, with, with children made in His image, you know, so we have this really rich job description that that we have, you know, way back in Genesis chapter one that I think is the foundation of all of this, you know, and I think it's also neglected, because like you said, they're very often we begin with John Genesis chapter three in the fall, which is true. You know, the fall obviously happened. But the fall doesn't negate everything that happens in Genesis chapter one and chapter two, like, that doesn't matter anymore. And I think sometimes Christians almost think that way. It's like, God isn't really concerned about this world anymore. You know, so it's what we do in the world doesn't really matter, you know, because this world now is fallen, and it's going to be destroyed. And so it's all about kind of escaping the world and getting to heaven. And so there's just not a lot of concern about what we do in this world. So I just, you know, your thoughts, guys, yeah,

Dwight: 10:42

both of yours are talking. I'm thinking, well, first, Darrell, I mean, think about Adam, God gives him this purpose, Adam and Eve, both male and female, the Dominion mandate, and I'm thinking that, you know, his first command was to rule and it wasn't you have needs, and I'm going to meet them. He was like, No, I've created a place you rule. Now they didn't have electricity. They didn't have running water. They didn't have they didn't have clothing. They had no machinery that we know of. And yet God said, you two are going to rule. So he knew that he had made man in His image with the ability to rule and when I think of helping try, or the first thing we think of is no, there are a Mago day, what does it mean to be a Mago? Day it means to have that command? That not try Adam and Eve was to rule and we think well, they can't rule yet because they don't have they don't have money and power and things. But that that wasn't God's starting point. It was no you will rule. And that's what it means to be human to rule.

Darrow Miller: 11:44

And that's part of the context. When we ask answer this question. We are a module day, we have been made for a purpose. And it's not just to sit here on a couch watching television and playing video games. It's to take and be creative. I remember reading a book a long time ago about George Washington Carver are a remarkable American, very gifted man, son of a child of a slave came into the world fathers separated from the mother. The mother died shortly after his birth, you talk about poor, somebody being poor, he was as poor as you could get. But he grew up got a doctorate in agriculture, agronomy, something like that. And he was a Christian. And one day he was reading Genesis 128. And he had a peanut seed in his hand. And he the scripture there says, Behold the seed. Look at the seed. So he has this peanut in his hand, and he looks at the seed. And he asked the profound question, God, why did you make this seed he saw that there was a potential in the seed. Because God had made the seed for a purpose. And then he describes how he spent his whole life studying the simple peanut, to see what it was made for. And of course, we all know the story, he ended up making 202 110 different products out of a peanuts seed. Because he was made in the image of God, and he realized there was a purpose not only in his life, but in the seed. And God created a seed principle, every flower, every tree has a seed principle. If you didn't have the seed principle, you'd pick the seed, eat it, and there'd be more, no more plants. But God made the seed so you pick it, you put it in the ground and more seeds come. That's, that's the creative nature. And people who are impoverished. They're made in the image of God, they've been given resources, they've been given the seed principle, and they have the ability to create resources themselves. But when we view them as poor, when we put them in that box, Oh, you are poor, you have nothing. Oh, but we will help you. You maintain their poverty. And you don't set them up as free men and women to take the opportunity to be creative to take risks. sponsibility to be steward. So what God has given them

Shawn Carson: 15:05

things, early years of being discipled and Monjo. Damon, you're meeting the image of God. And therefore, there's only two things that lasts forever God's Word and His people made in His image. So we rely on God's word to save those made in His image. And that that was the end of it, you know, we look at God's word and say, what does he say, now, we need to save everyone, we need to get everybody saved, so that everybody could go to heaven and spend eternity with God. And that was kind of the be all and end all of in Module day was, we didn't look and unpack what the rest of the module day meant. It just meant made in His image, and therefore you need to be reconciled back to him. And after that reconciliation, you just wait until he shows back up, and then you go back with him? You know, and that was, that was the way I was discipled.

Darrow Miller: 15:58

That's the flat earth way of seeing things she was Yeah.

Scott: 16:05

Yeah, dairy, there's several things that I'd like to kind of unpack a bit or just underscore from what you said, I think George Washington Carver is such a great example of, of somebody living out the truth of a biblical view of both creation, and what it means to be made in God's image, you know, an image bearer of God. And he's such a powerful example, because he himself is, you know, he's, he's a very impoverished person, he comes from this really broken impoverished place after the Civil War, you know, son of slaves with virtually, you know, no, no bank account. No, no, no, you know, he was just living in a subsistence kind of a way. And it would have been very easy for him to take those peanuts Darrow and just say, oh, food, you know, and just eat them. But he didn't, you know, he, he, he saw, it's kind of how do you see things right? How do you see the peanut the seed? How do you see yourselves? How do we see the poor? How do we see human beings? That matter? Everything depends on those the answer to that question.

Darrow Miller: 17:18

And he did not see himself as a slave. Right? Even though that was his context is background. You didn't dwell

Scott: 17:25

on it on this victimization, right, which he could have. And today would have heard, we're definitely encouraged to do that. That's part of, you know, the current cultural climate, right, find that thing that that you can claim as a victim kind of status and live there. Yeah, live there, make that the centerpiece of who you are. So you can essentially, you know, essentially, ask other people to compensate, you know, for that victimization, or whatever it is, right. So, this is not

Darrow Miller: 17:55

himself as a macho day. Exactly. And he pursued that, with his whole life. He went to university, he went to graduate school. Most people don't realize he was an artist, as well as a scientist. And there came a point in his life where he had to say, well, what am I going to do with my life? Am I going to be a scientist or an artist? What am I going to give my time to? So he gave the majority of his life to science, but he still had that artistic, creative impulse. And he taught other people who had been born into slavery, how to make paint from the soil and the flowers that were around them. He taught them to be a macho day, and be creative, and bring beauty into their

Scott: 18:54

beauty. Beauty was very important to him. Yeah. And that starts with God Himself. Right? So he, God creates this magnificent creation that is beautiful and filled with colors and textures, and seeds. And like you said, I mean, seeds, we just totally take them for granted. They're everywhere, right? Yep. But we don't reflect on what a seat is. That's really a miraculous thing. You know that we talked at different times about this kind of Kenyan proverb that you can count the number of seeds in a mango, but you can't count the number of mangoes in a seed. And it's really a profound thought, right? How many seeds are in a mango? There's one right it's got a pit that's easy to count. But take that seed planted in the ground it's going to grow into and if you care for it intended, which is something we do you know is image bearers of God. cultivate it. It's going to grow into a tree, how many trees how many mangoes will be produced on that? Tree. Now we're talking about like, many hundreds, maybe 1000s. And inside each one of those mangoes will be another seed. And the potential is there inside of a seed to grow to expand to fill the earth, almost, you know, unlimited way, like, what's the end of it? Right? It's not like, okay, and when you get to this number it's over, right? No, we don't know. Like, how many?

Luke Allen: 20:29

Yeah, and what's crazy about that is that's just a mango. But then, when we look at humans who God has made in His image, right, sometimes he, you know, in our current culture, where we don't have a very good, high regard for humans, we just see him as a mango. But it's like, no, that's a human with endless capability, endless creativity, who knows what that person's life could produce? Yeah, and as each person said, gives such a high value on who humans are, and what we can do the impact we can have. And that's

Scott: 21:06

George Washington Carver again. So he doesn't just eat the sea, that would be like something an animal might do, right? That's just food, I'm just going to eat it. But he recognizes no, I'm not an animal. I'm a human being made in God's image. In other words, so I have the capacity, God's given me the capacity in this position of Dominion, by which I can look at that seed and do something with it like I can, I can do something almost godlike, like I can create new things that didn't exist before. From a seed. That's a credibly biblical idea. You don't you don't get that idea anywhere else except the Bible, I think, and this idea of that we're made, to have dominion, and to take what God has given us apply our creativity and freedom and to create new things. Like that's a very biblical idea. So he, so that's what he does, he says, I'm going to take this seed apart, you know, into its various components, it's, you know, the chemistry is that with inside of a seed, and I'm going to recombine it, and he came up with almost an unlimited number of new innovations. And those new innovations made the world better, they added color, they added nutrition, they made the soil richer. I mean, you know, the amount of good that came from that this, I just think it's so profound this idea that God has made us in such a way that we can actually take this world. And we can leave it better than we found it like we can leave it more wealthy, more prosperous, more beautiful.

Darrow Miller: 22:46

And this is because we are functioning from a biblical worldview. This is the idea that we live in the context of an atheistic and secular worldview, that sees resources as limited, and sees human beings as animals, who are primarily the consumers of resources. And we're even now moving below the animal to see human beings as machines as robotic. We don't know how to separate a human being from a robot anymore, those are being fused. That's the context in which the world has been taught to think. So all these ideas of being creative and creating more resources. There's no place for that in an atheistic model.

Luke Allen: 23:53

I Brent, thank you so much for joining us today. If you'd like to continue to learn more about God's purposes for your life and how to see the world through biblical worldview. Head over to our flagship online training course the kingdom iser training program, of course, created to help Christians live out their mandate to make disciples of all nations, starting with themselves and working out from there. I'm personally currently going through the course for the third time and we really recommend it to any Christian who wants to stop living in a sacred secular divide, that limits their faith to only some areas of life. As I was thinking about why other people should take this course three things came to mind. Firstly, after taking this course, it is our hope that you will start to see everything Corum Dale, which means before the face of God, so that you'll start connecting your passions and the things that you enjoy to your faith. We also hope that you will learn to not only know that the Bible is true, but why it is true, and therefore gain a whole new confidence when telling others about your faith as First Peter 315 structures always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for the reason for the hope that is within you. But do so with gentleness and respect this This course will help you continue to have an impact for Christ on your culture. And if your culture is anything like mine, it is in desperate need for this truth and direction. After the kingdom iser training program, if you'd like to take an even deeper dive into today's topic, I would also recommend some of our books that we've talked about here. I would also recommend some of our books that talk about how to live in light of quorum Dale, including the forest and the seed, the hope for Africa, against all hope. And there are Miller's discipling nations. All of those books are linked in the episode landing page, which is linked in the description. before resuming this episode, if you could do me a quick favor and hop on the podcast app that you're currently listening on, and leave this show a rating and review or share your favorite episode with a friend. That'd be a huge help as we continue to reach more people with this show. Thanks again for joining us here on ideas have consequences.

Scott: 25:57

There's no purpose in other words, so God gives us a purpose right in the beginning, you know, rule over this creation, take what I've given you expand it, make this whole world flourish and flower and, and, you know, I'm going to be thrilled with that I'm going to be excited to see what you create. And then, you know, have children fill the earth you know, this is this, this this job description Darrow and Dwight and team hasn't gone away. I think sometimes Christians think this, this initial job description that's given in Genesis number one doesn't exist anymore. Like

Darrow Miller: 26:33

we don't see it? Well, because we are shaped by an atheistic framework ourselves, or even

Scott: 26:40

a faulty Christian framework or headway. Yeah,

Dwight: 26:42

I think all of the above. I'm just listening and I'm thinking it's, it's a combination of things. Darrell one is yes, we live in an atheistic world atheistic framework. Two, we live post fall and the world looks really challenging and difficult post vol. Three, we think about ruling as in terms of, you know, agriculture, oftentimes it's the seed, it's the tree. But what does it have to do with the bus driver, the school teacher, the stewardess on the airplane, the waitress, you know, what, what did that had? What did they have to do with dominion? And, and there's just the, the, I think it's the fall the oppression of life. So the idea that I have dominion over life isn't necessarily a Christian thought. And that's actually my man's limited, limited.

Scott: 27:37

It's not common, it's not a Christian thought, or it's not common among Christians. It's

Dwight: 27:40

not common among Christians, okay. It's not the person that you think about because it's like, I don't have dominion, I'm, life's too hard to have dominion. Most people don't see themselves as Christians saying, well, now I have dominion. How will I conquer this day? What will I do to make this day work for myself and for others? And is that actually glorifying God? And putting all that together? I think the average person doesn't, doesn't see the world that way. Christians

Scott: 28:08

that way? I agree. Do I think I think

Dwight: 28:11

our theology is so small on this ash issue that we do, we just can't get our minds. We need to have our minds blown up. In some respects.

Scott: 28:20

That's right. Yeah, exactly. I think we have a crisis of purpose. And we've talked about that on this podcast before you especially see this see this with young men, they don't know what they're made for, or you know, why they exist. So they tend to just kind of create a credit to gratify, you know, their, their cravings and desires, right? And they see, they see freedom in that way. Like, you know, freedom is just purely self gratification in the moment.

Darrow Miller: 28:48

And they spend hours playing video games, or whatever, right? It's just battling limiters, right? Uh huh.

Scott: 28:55

But you can't live that way. Because we're not made to be that way. We're not made just to kind of feed our mouths and our eyes. You know, you know, get pleasure and die. I mean, yeah, we're actually made for something different more, you know, go ahead, look, yeah.

Luke Allen: 29:10

Well, here's what I don't get. I don't understand how atheism as says we're animals or machines, has really taken a hold that I don't see how it makes sense to people. Because we're clearly not animals. I mean, just look at a dolphin two 3000 years ago, it did exactly what it's doing today. Just being a dolphin, humans to 3000 years ago, have changed the world and amazing ways, you know, with technology, machinery science, innovation created, you know, art. So, how do how do people believe that we're clearly different?

Darrow Miller: 29:51

Because they're driven by an ideology.

Luke Allen: 29:54

They can overlook it that much.

Darrow Miller: 29:57

Horse they do. They're driven by atheism, I think, like, they talk about

Scott: 30:03

blinders because worldviews create blind, some big blinders. No, it's

Darrow Miller: 30:07

huge. They begin with the assumption there is no God. And if there is no God, there is no science. It takes a biblical framework to produce science and technology. an atheistic framework does not produce a context for science to develop. This is what you see from Charles thaxted A Nancy Pearcey is brilliant book, The soul of science.

Scott: 30:42

Just pause there, Derek, I want you to unpack that, because I don't think people understand that, in fact, the narrative that's common is not that science was something that owes any kind of, you know, purpose, or, you know, it had nothing to do with Christianity. In fact, it was more the narrative is that Christianity had to be overcome. You know, that was that was the worldview of the Dark Ages when people you know, were afraid of demons and angels and spirits. And then the Enlightenment came along, and man through his human reason. And science kind of overcame all those superstitions. And you know, so, so explain how science was dependent upon a Christian worldview, just briefly, Darrow?

Darrow Miller: 31:31

Well, one is the concept of a macho day. You have to have be a macho day to reflect on creation and ask questions. Where did this come from? How does it work? Monkeys don't sit there and ask where did all this come from? A cow doesn't sit there and ask where did all this come from? A rock doesn't ask, Where did this come from? Who asked that question. It's human beings, because we are not merely rocks. We're not merely material, we're not merely animals, we have the ability to ask those very profound questions and answer them. Where did that come from? Christianity. It came from the games that Christian worldview gives that atheistic science does not. Atheistic science gives the idea that we are some simply highly evolved animals, or we are basically machines, physical and chemical, electronic machines, right? So motion, right matter in motion. The other is that the universe is ordered and knowable.

Scott: 32:58

In other words, not chaos. It's, there's an order to it, right?

Darrow Miller: 33:01

It's not chaos. It's, it's, there's an order to it. And if you think that the universe is chaos, and all this just sprung up over billions of years, by chance, which is what evolution is, based in chance over millions of years, if that's what you think. You don't have an orderly universe, it takes the concept of an orderly universe. To do this, I would also argue,

Scott: 33:36

and again, science is dependent on that idea. And that idea comes from the Bible. That triad

Darrow Miller: 33:41

comes from the Bible, it was born out of a biblical science was born out of a biblical worldview, not an atheistic world,

Scott: 33:49

takes for granted certain would you know, biblical starting points, right, you know, there's order and not chaos. And they feel like you say human beings can ask questions about that and understand things about it in a way that say, a rock or an animal cannot. So

Darrow Miller: 34:06

there's, there's another thing that needs to be stated. And we have the ability to state it more clearly today than I think previous generations. How did God create? He spoke, creation into existence. He didn't begin with matter. He spoke and created the matter. And then he spoke and brought order to the matter and the more he spoke, the higher and higher order came to the matter. And today, with what we've studied with the genetic code and DNA we are seeing that it is the code. This is the language of God. The code is what has given us life. and the code is more important than the physical components of a rock. It's the code that can turn the physical components into something that is living, and can think and can discover. And that code began with God's speaking creation into existence. That is not something you have in an atheistic framework.

Scott: 35:34

And then just to add to that Darrow, he made us in his image, and part of what it means to be made in His image, is that we also have this capacity, this amazing capacity to speak

Darrow Miller: 35:46

to us word array of words, right? Yes, exactly.

Scott: 35:49

I mean, again, that's different lotia ways to the rest of creation, that you know that we have this amazing capacity to speak. And, and yeah, we're writing about this in our 12 words book, which will be coming out here shortly. And just again, the power of words, it's part of how we have dominion, you know, over creation is through our language, by naming things, you know, that's what you see, even in Genesis before the fall, right? You know, God says to Adam, I want you to name these things. That's part of what it means to rule. Give them names describe them.

Darrow Miller: 36:25

Yeah. And this is, what does it take to name? It's not just pulling something out of a hat and sticking it on an animal? No, it's It's the ability to analyze. Here's this thing here. And here's this thing here. Both have four legs and a tail, they have fur. What's the difference? Well, one is a cat. And one is a dog. How do you distinguish a cat from a dog? And you look and is a chi Alala more related to his St. Bernard, or to a cat? It's more related to the St. Bernard's, but that wouldn't be intuitive. You'd look at it, and it's closer to the size of a cat or a rat. I'm sorry, for those of you that have Chihuahua,

Scott: 37:19

I'm not a big fan of Chihuahuas. Yeah.

Darrow Miller: 37:24

But it's sad ability to distinguish

Scott: 37:27

it, you know what I do, I want to get to you. But I just, I love this picture, too, that you see in Genesis chapter one of God has made all of this magnificent creation, including all of this vast array of animals, and then he brings them before Adam to see what he will name them. And you see God, kind of working with Adam, you know, with his with his person made in His image, in almost like a partnership, like, let's work together. I'm going to show you what I've made you give them names, you know, and I'll call them you know what, you name them. It's just kind of this remarkable picture. And go ahead, Dwight, I'm sorry. I just said, Yeah,

Dwight: 38:05

I think the Darrow you refer to that as being co regions. And I think we undersell that reality as well, that we are co regions that God really has basically said, you guys now do the job of managing my world. I create it, you manage it, and because it's so messed up is because he actually did that he actually, you know, gave us that, that mandate that challenge.

Darrow Miller: 38:32

That's so profound, Dwight, because it is that cultural mandate, that Dominion mandate that is coming from the heart of God, to be creative. He was the first artist, he was the first Korea grapher. I mean, you just look at every element of he was the first molder of clay. He was the first artist. That's the context for our lives. It goes back to that.

Dwight: 39:08

But and when we think of redemption, if that's our starting point, and we think of the cross, we always go, well, Christ Saved us to have a relationship with God. Christ Saved us for forgiveness of sin, Christ Saved us for heaven, all of the above is true. But he also saved us to have dominion. That's right. He saved as a part of his redemption is to take us back to where Adam was naming the the animals and to rule and I don't think we spiritualize that enough. We don't see the sacred.

Darrow Miller: 39:44

That's why the church is missing something. Yeah, we haven't because we go back to Genesis three and not Genesis one, what are we saved for? We are saved for the mandate that God has given Notice,

Scott: 40:00

yeah, let's talk about that, guys, because I don't think we flesh that out enough. I think the I think a lot of Christians just after the fall, they kind of put the whole Dominion mandate aside other than maybe just checking it off that yeah, we're not like animals. Right, you know, but but that's not an important part of what it means to be human or to be a Christian or to be I don't think

Darrow Miller: 40:21

they look at it, Scott. Right. And because I think they start with Genesis three, right.

Scott: 40:28

Let me just let me just ask the question, guys, how did the fall affect the mandate? Did it eliminate it? It's clearly changed it. And and then what about redemption? As you were saying, Dwight, what about the cross? And let's answer those questions. You don't think this is all clear to Christians? Yeah. Well,

Dwight: 40:46

I think that's part of the confusion is that it is a mandate for all mankind, all humans. And so we see, for example, you know, Darrow, you were saying that only the Christian worldview provides a theoretical framework to support dominion to the ruling, a creativity, imagination of speaking, all these things, but the reality is we see atheistic a society, like China, having the world's fastest bullet train, and it's powered by magnets that move it forward. It's amazing. And here, and so we go, Well, it can't be a Christian mandate, because look at here's an atheistic nation that's doing it. And so we get confused. We don't you know, I think that's part of our confusion, that is a shared mandate that's actually being carried out all over the world by Christians, and not exactly why

Darrow Miller: 41:38

Christians have a foundation for it, right, we alone have this doubt, and we

Dwight: 41:43

know where it should end. And we know what it should produce in terms of, of bringing glory to God. But but it's a universal, universal mandate, and it's still being

Scott: 41:53

carried out. All beings are made in God's image, and they're all carrying it

Dwight: 41:57

out. So it's kind of like, well, that's not just a Christian thing. And so I think that's confusing for us that Well, I just want to

Scott: 42:05

say just so it's clear, you know, that when the fall happened, and we man turned his back on God and kind of went his own way, the imago day it didn't like evaporator and there were still made in God's image. But and we still have those job descriptions, and creation still exists. But it was fundamentally changed at that point. In other words, we still were exercising creativity and dominion over creation. But now in our fallen condition, we were doing it in a bent and broken way that armed you know, very often harmed, you know, creation and destroyed creation. Romans talks about this, when it says creation was subjected to frustration, you know, because of the fall, we were supposed to wisely rule over it, and then, you know, that capacity, it didn't go away, it just was broken. So then when you see redemption, you see God's plan of redemption culminating in the cross. It's not just a message of redemption for heaven, it's, it's like you were saying earlier, do it. It's a it's a message of redemption, to get us back to what we were originally created to be wise, rulers, wise, stewards wise, you know, having wise dominion over creation, that's now part of our Christian purpose,

Darrow Miller: 43:32

and to tell people who are living in poverty, who they are, yes, that's what we need to be doing. Not telling them the atheistic narrative of who you are, oh, you're an only an animal. And there's too many animals and you consume resources, you're consuming too many resources. Or what you need is us to give you resources so you don't starve to death. We create. That's the narrative we teach. And if you really want to help the poor, you have to go back and tell them the truth about who they are being made in the image of God and the wonderful things God has built into them, and built into the environment around them that they can harness for their own development and the development of their community.

Dwight: 44:31

And I suggest that the poor today include the teenager, the young person, yep, the single mom, the homeless, the frustrated worker in his job, who's just feels trapped. The artist who doesn't know what to do with his work and his life. I think they are all part of this poor group now that I tried, it's not just somebody in you India or Bangladesh.

Darrow Miller: 45:03

It's in a sense, everybody that hasn't heard the story. And that also includes Christians who haven't heard the story because they've started with Genesis three. So that's what this podcast is about today is telling the deep wonder of the story to whoever is listening.

Scott: 45:25

Absolutely, yeah. So when we when we work in contexts of poverty, and I agree with your broad understanding of what that means to AI, our goal isn't to just meet a need. Our goal is to help people understand who they are, and what their purpose is, you know, I get frustrated sometimes, like, I was listening to the radio the other day, and there was a Christian relief and development organization, I won't say which one, but it was doing work in Haiti, and it was drumming up funds, right. And, man, you know, your $10 donation will feed a child in Haiti for you know, five meals, or whatever it is, and next week, they're going to be back asking for more money to feed Haitians. And I thought, How long do we have to keep feeding Haitians? Why don't we go on? Why don't we ask a different question? You know, the question, you know, is why, why? Why isn't Haiti developing, you know, is why isn't Haiti able to feed itself so that we have to raise money and, you know, try to give them food like animals or something like that, I get kind of frustrated at it. Now, I'm like, enough of that kind of development, let's do a whole different kind of development, let's teach Haitians and everyone else, that they're made in God's image, and that they can develop with the resources that God has given them. And after time, they don't need us to give them handouts and food, because they will be able to develop the capacity and the resources to do that themselves. That's what it means to be a human being. So

Darrow Miller: 47:01

that's where we need to move from a need base concept of development, to a resource based concept of development. It's been a switch,

Scott: 47:11

I'm not saying don't be generous and all this, but you know, it's just how we did if

Darrow Miller: 47:15

you really want to help the poor, right? I was in Haiti 40 years ago, and it's virtually as an impoverished today, as it was then. The Johnson war on poverty. Last Johnson, President Lyndon Johnson declared a war on poverty. And after 50 years, the United States had spent 21 trillion with a T dollars in aid to the poor federal aid state a local aid, giving money to the poor. And we did not move the needle on poverty. And we're still saying, well, we need to give more money today. No, we don't need to give more money. Today, we need to tell the truth today.

Scott: 48:10

It's kind of anti development, because what you're doing is you're training people to see themselves in a way that really isn't fully human. And to kind of make them dependent on you. These are anti development kinds of things. That's exactly right. Wrong direction, if you really want to see development, okay, right. But they're doing it in the name of development. That's, that's the name of compassion and the name of compassion.

Darrow Miller: 48:36

Everybody loves the word compassion, and we should be compassionate. This is not compassion.

Scott: 48:43

Yeah, it's, it's a harmonic. But it's true. I think we have to say it actually, go ahead.

Dwight: 48:48

I'm a little bit cynical here. My assumption is that most agencies that are working actually know that the solution is developing people, and not handing things to them. But in order to get money from us Americans, you know, they got to appeal to our sense of guilt. So they, you know, tell us so feed a child for a day or something. But anyway, that's my cynicism. At work, because I just

Scott: 49:14

see, I don't know if they do do I sometimes think they do have that. That's why we're having this podcast. We're talking about the lack that Christians have this theology, because I think if they really had a strong sense of, of what the ology Yeah. image into, yeah, I think they would do development. I

Dwight: 49:33

think his concern is that the average person doesn't have this theology. Correct. And to have this theology about yourself, it will be very natural for you to see a homeless person on the corner and go, my theology is his theology. And so, you know, if you see yourself as an image bearer made with dominion, you're gonna see them as an image bearer, made to have dominion and then you will respond in kind, and I think the problem is starts with us. us not having good theology. That's all. Yeah,

Scott: 50:02

I was listening. Speaking of homeless Wait, I was listening to a guy speak about the homeless crisis in San Francisco. And you can multiply that to many cities all over the United States now, and especially in the West Coast, you know, we've just got this explosion in homeless people, homeless populations. And he was saying that the reason that it's exploding is because the way that city governments see these people, how do you see that this gets back to what do you see when you see a human being or a seed, like they see these people as victims, and that they have the means to, to help them to provide sucker for all of their victimhood, right. And so they're all just being enabled with tents and drugs, or whatever it is, to continue to be homeless. It's not like you're saying here, it's not compassionate, because it doesn't see them as human beings,

Darrow Miller: 50:56

it creates.

Scott: 50:58

She treats them like animals, you know, it's more poverty,

Darrow Miller: 51:02

more drug addiction, we can have as much poverty as we want to pay for, and we're willing to pay for more and more.

Scott: 51:11

Yeah, but what would happen if we saw them as human beings, that God created, to create, try to, to, to to make the world a better place with sources with eyes and hands and minds? What how would it be different and, and that for them to live a full human life, they have to exercise that Job, God given job description that's essential for them, just like it is for all of us. And if we keep them from that, by enabling them to live in this dependent kind of situation, then we're treating them in a dehumanizing kind of way.

Luke Allen: 51:50

It's a creation mandate were made to create. And because of that creating gives us dignity, whether that's creating an atmosphere of joy for those around us, that gives us dignity. Whether that's creating, you know, if you're a bus driver, a clean bus, and a better a better place for your people you served. That's, that's what gives us a lot of purpose. A lot of dignity. We all know it when we create something, whether it's a you know, a nice party for people coming over to our house. That gives us a lot of joy, whether that's you know, creating something new you like an art piece or a machine that gives us so much joy. I love this story. I still did. I remember the first time he told me this. But when when God finished creation on the seventh day, and he said this is very good. It was very good. It was perfect. But it wasn't complete. And I think

Scott: 52:45

we're I heard that. I heard that from Darrow Miller.

Luke Allen: 52:47

Okay, yeah. Pass it on. You probably heard it from Schaefer who

Darrow Miller: 52:51

heard it from Michael Novak.

Dwight: 52:54

Novak heard it from

Luke Allen: 52:56

Yeah, God was true.

Scott: 52:59

Um, so anyways. Yeah,

Luke Allen: 53:01

creation is such a cool picture I think of like, I think of like, those cooking shows popular cooking shows, like, you know, Iron Chef, or chopped. And it's this amazing kitchen with everything in it perfectly set out. It's all clean. It's all pristine, every single ingredient is in there. And yet, it's not done. Because then you take the chef, and you plop them in the kitchen. And you say, go for it. And that's what God did with us. It's so cool. Or when, you know,

Scott: 53:30

that's why I love those cooking shows so much. You touched on it. I love the shows.

Luke Allen: 53:34

Yeah. And yet, we all have that even after the fall. God has placed us in a place where he's given us everything we need to create our mind resources in in, you know, everything. And they says Go for it. And I

Scott: 53:49

like Luke so much the way you brought it down to very practical things I like you're talking about a bus driver cleaning his bus. That's a very simple thing. But that's part of what we're talking about. You know, I think it's, I speak of it kind of broadly, it's like, what can you do to bring order out of chaos? What can you do to bring beauty out of something that's a mess, or ugly or desolate?

Luke Allen: 54:13

Yeah. And what's cool is because it gives us dignity, it's a compounding effect. Once you do it once, you just want to do it again. So it's a domino effect that we can we can all see in our lives. It's a lot of fun how

Scott: 54:24

to do this in very simple ways. Like I literally think if you've got kids at home, teach them to clean their bedrooms, like this is the beginning of it. Jordan Peterson, you know, right, clean your barrel because,

Dwight: 54:37

you know, sorry. There are how close is this to being the essence of being human.

Darrow Miller: 54:44

I think it's really close and just listening to what Luke was saying. He was saying, you know, here's this kitchen all set up now go do something. But the thing that you do is going to bring beauty into that environment. And, yeah, a few weeks ago, we interviewed branch and branch and Brian Chen. His whole thing was a theology of beauty. And we're talking here, of when we talk theologically, it's not this abstract stuff. It's very practical. It's what's the nature of the universe? Who is man? What is beauty? What is our purpose here? It is the biblical framework that answers all these questions, and produces beauty, rather than hideousness. Yeah. So it's the core, what we're talking about here is the core.

Dwight: 55:49

I asked that question because I, I feel the same. I mean, there's probably three or four elements about being human that are core. But certainly this one is one of those that's have demand. And so when you think of helping the poor, I even this idea of love your neighbor. I feel like our starting point should be how do we help our neighbor Have dominion? And if they don't have dominion? What was it that that pushed them aside? Why are they victims of you know, people are victimized, but the question is, how do you undo that? And take take them back to a point where they can start to have dominion over life? If it's a drug addict? If it's someone that's been prison, how do you take them back to where they can start having dominion because

Darrow Miller: 56:37

that's right core. Well, it's a story. It's telling the story. I remember Arturo, Kuba, one of the things that he did, he worked in a the, among the pokum Chi in Central America, the poorest of the poor, the poorest indigenous group in that part of the world. And what did he do? He taught them Genesis one. These were farmers who were not literate, couldn't read, couldn't write. He taught them Genesis one. And he taught them that they were made in the image of God. And they were to have dominion over creation. They were to have dominion over their farms. He told them the creation narrative, and they got it. And it's what changed their lives.

Scott: 57:35

Yeah, we talk a lot about our tourists story, because it's such a perfect illustration of what we're talking about, you know, these farmers weren't coming from an atheistic kind of culture. They were coming from a mystic culture and and an animistic culture and in that kind of cultural environment with that worldview, those worldview lenses. You know, you have your farming, but rats will come in and eat half of your crop. And you go, there's nothing I can do about it, because it always happens at all. You know, that's what this reality. This is just the way it is. Right? It's kind of this fatalistic idea that I can't control that. So our turn needed to change that idea because it was a false idea. You know, God didn't, you know, make you a victim of rats. In this case, he made you to have dominion over the rats. And so they did they got that idea and then they protected their crop. I mean, they came up with they innovated they came up with a new innovation to protect their crop after because they had

Darrow Miller: 58:37

a new idea in their mind and wasn't there before. They were who they really were, they really were we are not for farmers. We are a maggio de. We're not to let the rats have dominion over our life. We are to have dominion over the rats. Okay, there's a new space in my mind, what's the question? What am I going to do to have dominion over the rats? Until that space was there? They couldn't ask that question.

Luke Allen: 59:11

Well, okay, do I Darrow actually, we've had a few people on the podcast now who have talked exactly about this, how when they introduce a story of what it means to be human, to people group, it absolutely transforms the way those people live their lives. We heard it from Randy hog a few weeks ago in South Korea. We heard it from Tim and Terry Andrews all over Africa. And yet, I don't hear these stories in you could say first world countries, the developed world. I don't hear these, these large transformation. You know, it's the same story. We're telling people, but I don't see the effects as much. Why do you think that is? Is that is that the worldview blinders again? What is that?

Darrow Miller: 59:57

Because we have forgotten our room. What's the United States the Western world was born out of a Judeo Christian worldview. We no longer believe in God. He still exists. But the West no longer believes in God. No longer has a biblical worldview has reduced man to a mere animal. And we've eliminated the sense of a moral universe. There's no moral framework, no truth anymore. And we are now living on a cultural level and country by country level, in that framework, that's how we see the world.

Scott: 1:00:44

That's the problem. Darrow the other half is that the Church lost its its theology of creation and what it means to be a human being sure we've been saying, so the church hasn't had any response to these things.

Darrow Miller: 1:00:59

It hasn't been teaching. It's

Scott: 1:01:02

saying, hey, you know, just Yeah, save your friends, get them to heaven, get them into the church, end of story. That's your purpose. That's what it means to be a faithful Christian. And

Darrow Miller: 1:01:10

now we're saying, Put your head down. Because things are getting tough.

Scott: 1:01:17

Right? And it's kind of even fatalistic, like in God's, it's gonna get hard, and it's gonna get worse and you're gonna get really bad. So just accept it, you know, suck it up and let it get bad, you know. So I think that's part of the problem. Luke cancer is a really good question. Why don't we see that happening here? Yeah. Do I think

Dwight: 1:01:33

the first world yeah, as you said, we've seen it as a secular mandate now. Yeah, it work as secular dominion is secular ruling is secular, and it's dangerous, and it's largely highly destructive at times. Right? What's interesting is that you guys were talking about animism. And if you think about the world religions and what predominates in different parts of the world, I mean, I'm thinking of Islam and basically the the anti Dominion message of ants of Islam is inshallah you know, you ultimately don't have control. What is Michelle? I mean, don't show as God wills life is in the it's it's fatalistic,

Scott: 1:02:16

it's this it's this sense of God is in control and the will of God is going to prevail doubt no matter what I do, it's it's right exactly carries image which is kind of a there's a Christian eye understanding of God's providence, there's sovereignty Yes, and probably that bad, but it carries it to this kind of extreme that makes man's choices almost zero, you know, it doesn't matter what I do.

Dwight: 1:02:39

I remember being in a relief situation in Sudan once where there was a trying to put together a convoy to deliver food to the western part of Sudan anyway, and this guy was fighting to get things organized and or and ordered and trucks loaded, and people just kept saying, Inshallah, well, if the truck breaks, Inshallah, if the if the dust storm breaks, you know, comes it's inshallah anyway, just nothing you can do, nothing you can do. And so he couldn't get organized. He was so frustrated, you know, because that, but anyway, it's like every religion except for Christianity really has a dim view of Dominion, including atheism, which says, Well, ultimately, we're consumers. We're victims, and we're destructive. And it's only the Christian framework that says, No, this is actually endowed to you by God gives you His Holy Spirit, and He wants to redeem you so that you can rule and reign and life It sounds terribly triumph holistic, I know. But

Scott: 1:03:47

no, but it's true. It comes from nowhere else what I think it's an excellent point. No other belief system, no other world religion, no other philosophy. Do you get these ideas? It comes from one place in one place only from the Bible,

Darrow Miller: 1:03:59

and you have the the book dominion. Scott, who is the author, Tom Holland, the historian, Tom Holland, you have the rise of Christianity with Rodney Starks, you have these guys out there who are academically great, who are asking these questions. And they lo and behold, they realize that it is the framework of Judeo Christianity. Jordan Peterson, has come to the conclusion that the Bible is not merely true. It is the foundation for all for the concept of truth. It's, it's what makes the world work. And the secularists are discovering it. And as Christians, we we should have already discovered it and be proclaiming it

Scott: 1:05:00

No, it's the irony of the time we live in Darrow. It's that you Yeah, we we've largely lost as we being Christians, we've largely lost some of these pillars of our own beliefs. And we have this very kind of limited and truncated view of what it means to be a Christian.

Darrow Miller: 1:05:17

So very truncated

Dwight: 1:05:19

into the point that we have found that it it's become skewed as the prosperity gospel. Yeah. So I mean, we just can't get it right. We either lose it or we make it the prosperity gospel. Yeah.

Shawn Carson: 1:05:34

I think it's interesting, because this is, what we're talking about is worldviews and man creating a worldview to understand God, or God revealing to man how the world works, and that becomes God's worldview. So one is trying to understand God, the other one is God's God's told us who he is and how it works. And then you fall in line with that, it's, it produces totally different results. You know, like if I have to create my own theology, your ideology about the way the world was created, and what my purpose is, and how are things broken? And where does it all end up someday, I probably would never come up with this story. I'll come up with 1000 other stories, but not this one. But if God says, Hey, this is how it all began, this is what happened. This is where we're headed. And this is how it's going to end. Well, I just fall in line with him and think along those lines, and it puts everything else starts to put everything else into focus. I think that that's where we've talked about it before, but just the idea that Christians is hold on to this spiritual idea of life, like, well, spiritually, were created in His image, spiritually, were fallen, and spiritually renewed. But the rest of the world, yeah, it's kind of just going to hell, and it doesn't really matter. And then, you know, that whole secret secular paradigm that we've talked 1000 times about, but I think it really does have an impact. When you submit to the idea that God has revealed himself, which in itself is radical to me, you know, like, God, the Creator of the universe in the world, has revealed Himself and His ways to us, that's the foundation of our worldview.

Darrow Miller: 1:07:21

Well, and as Christians, we tend to think he does that through the scriptures exclusively. And that's not the case. He has revealed Himself through the Scriptures, so we can know the plan of salvation, but He has revealed Himself to all human beings, through what he has made. And as very often as Christians, we don't even think about this. But Paul argues in Romans one, that the clarity of revelation general revelation is so clear, it reveals that God exists. And it reveals his nature. So clearly, that human beings are without excuse. We don't think in those terms as Christians, and obviously people out there. What Paul is saying is the atheist, scientists can look at what's made and conclude there's a God. Yeah. But in their pride, they would rather be autonomous without God, and so they deny him. And Paul says there without excuse. So we need to look at creation. And what you were saying a minute ago, Shawn, it's a discovery. It's not a creating of purpose. It's a discovery of purpose, because God exists, and he is the purchaser. And we can discover that through his works and his word.

Scott: 1:09:11

Guys, I think I think that's a great place to kind of wrap up our podcast today with with that exhortation Darrow, because God has given every one of you who are listening, and all five of us as well, he's given us, He's created us. And He's created us with a job description with a purpose. And he's given us this amazing capacity as image bearers of God to take what he's made. And to do something with it, to leave this world better. To, you know, to bring order out of chaos, to bring beauty, out of desolation, to create new resources to innovate, to do such in a way that makes other people's lives better that blesses people. And to take essentially take the garden you know, and expanded you know, and Of course, that's not going to end until Jesus comes back. Right? You know, but, but that's why we're here. That's why you're here. So I just want to encourage every one of you who are listening today, to understand and dive deeply into this biblical purpose that you God has given your life if there's nothing like it, there's no other purpose that you can have for your life that comes anywhere close to this purpose. And boy, we need we need to know why we're here and what we're made for. And we need to see other people in that way, especially if we're in any kind of work that's trying to help people. We've got to see them in this way, that they aren't just mouths to be fed or victims to be assuaged. But they're human beings that are made to create to innovate and to leave the world better than they found it. And anything short of that is, is working in a dehumanizing direction. So anyways, I just want to leave people with those thoughts. What what is that purpose that God's you know, what's the place that God's put you? What are those resources that you have? What does he put into your hand? gifts, talents, resources, relationships, what does he expect you to do, guys? Any final thoughts as we wrap up, you know, on that exhortation,

Dwight: 1:11:13

good summary, Scott.

Scott: 1:11:15

Thank you. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you all for listening to another episode of ideas have consequences is the podcast of the disciple nations Alliance. And this is one of our favorite topics, we will continue to come back and talk about this in future episodes. And I might just leave you folks with another kind of resource is one of the resources that we we have written and is available on our website disciple nations.org is called the forest in the seed. And we've mentioned this before, but it really is a place where you can learn more about what it means to be an image bearer of God, and the nature of God's magnificent creation. What what does it mean to to, to see the forest in the seed kind of via George Washington Carver, so I recommend that resource to Thanks again for listening.

Luke Allen: 1:12:11

Thank you so much for listening to this discussion. Again, if you'd like to continue to learn more about God's amazing story that he's inviting you to be a part of, make sure to visit this episode's landing page which is linked below in the description. Because on that page, you will find multiple helpful resources including our completely free Kingdom iser training program courses, which are online simple to navigate and created straight from our core worldview teaching that the guys have been using for the last 25 years. Ideas have consequences is brought to you by the disciple nations alliance to learn more about our ministry you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, and now Twitter or on our website which is disciple nations.org. Thanks again for listening and we hope to see you back here on ideas have consequences next week.