Today, our good friend Vishal Mangalwadi joins us. Christianity Today named Vishal, India's foremost Christian intellectual. He is the author of many books, including "The Book that Made Your World" and "This Book Changed Everything." Vishal's prophetic way of communicating biblical truth has impacted many people worldwide, including, most recently, Jordan Peterson, who has engaged directly with Vishal on his writings about transforming nations. Today we talk about Vishal's recent interview with Jordan Peterson and the documentary they are filming on the impact of the Bible on history. We also discuss how deeply the biblical worldview impacts our nations and what happens when culture attempts to withdraw the blocks that make up its foundation. After this epsidoe, to listen to our first reaction to Jordan Peterson's interview with Vishal Mangalwadi, check out our episode "Jordan Peterson, Vishal Mangalwadi, and the Power of the Bible to Transform Culture."
Today, our good friend Vishal Mangalwadi joins us. Christianity Today named Vishal, India's foremost Christian intellectual. He is the author of many books, including "The Book that Made Your World" and "This Book Changed Everything." Vishal's prophetic way of communicating biblical truth has impacted many people worldwide, including, most recently, Jordan Peterson, who has engaged directly with Vishal on his writings about transforming nations. Today we talk about Vishal's recent interview with Jordan Peterson and the documentary they are filming on the impact of the Bible on history. We also discuss how deeply the biblical worldview impacts our nations and what happens when culture attempts to withdraw the blocks that make up its foundation. After this epsidoe, to listen to our first reaction to Jordan Peterson's interview with Vishal Mangalwadi, check out our episode "Jordan Peterson, Vishal Mangalwadi, and the Power of the Bible to Transform Culture."
But revolutions are caused by ideas. So Jesus is sowing the seed and he's asking us to go and sow the seed, which is the ideas that change history.
Luke:Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of Ideas Have Consequences. As always on this podcast, we want to find ways to carry out the great commission by not only spreading the gospel around the world to all the nations, but by also seeking ways to transform the nation's to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected the second part of her mission, as many of us have seen, and today Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.
Scott:All right, well, welcome back to another episode of Ideas Have Consequences that a podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. I'm Scott Allen, and here with again, dear friends, Dwight Vogt, Shawn Carson, Luke Allen and today we are blessed again to have a special guest Vishal Mangalwadi. Vishal, thank you for taking time to be with us today. What a blessing.
Vishal Mangalwadi:I'm honored, and I praise the Lord for the tremendous work you have done around the world.
Scott:Oh, well, Vishal, I'm anxious to tell those folks who are listening about our relationship because God has used you so powerfully in our lives, but also in our ministry. Let me introduce you to people who aren't aware of who you are. I'm going to read the introduction that comes from your book. Vishal is the author of many books, I'm going to read the introduction or the little bio that's listed in "The Book that Made Your World." Vishal Mangalwadi was born and raised in India, where he studied philosophy in secular universities and Hindu ashrams. After studying in Swiss L'Abri for six months with Francis Schaeffer, he returned to India to serve the rural poor through several creative projects. This frontline engagement with oppression and corruption sent him to jail, helped to prevent the revival of widow burning, and lead to politically organizing peasants and lower caste untouchables. There's a lot to unpack there. A dynamic and engaging speaker Vishal has lectured in 35 countries and has authored now I believe it's up to 22 books—here it says 14. Christianity Today called Vishal, India's foremost Christian intellectual. And anyways, you have the shell what a blessing to have you with us again, and for those who aren't familiar, you know, Vishal was really, he's played an instrumental role in the ministry of the DNA, actually, at the very beginning. We were together in Mumbai, not Mumbai, I take that back—Mombasa. Mombasa, Kenya, when we were praying and feeling God was putting this ministry upon our heart at the time we were with Food for the Hungry, at a leadership meeting with people from around the world. And Vishal was our guest speaker. And God sure used you as our speaker at that time, Vishal, that really had a powerful impact at that moment. But you encouraged us to get the ministry started, that became the DNA. And you encouraged us not to focus on building buildings, but to focus on the ideas, the curriculum, and then get that out through as many different organizations and institutions as we could. And that was one idea that you had that helped us and we really carried that idea through to this day. So you know, focusing on the teaching on the ideas, that biblical principles, and then trying to spread those through as many different groups and organizations as we can. I would say personally, the shell, you know, I think you more than anyone that I know, probably, maybe with the exception of Darrow and Bob, you understand what it means for the church to disciple nations and the power of biblical truth to transform culture, better than anyone in the world. I just think you understand this so profoundly. And you know, not just in the present, but especially historically. And your books have been life changing to me. Let me just mention three of your books again, you have many, but I want to mention to our audience three in particular, "Truth and Transformation, a Manifesto for Ailing Nations." This is a really powerful book and by God's grace, we had a hand in helping Vishal get this one published and developing the study guide for it. I think of late though the book that I mentioned previously has had a huge influence on people around the world. The title is, "The Book that Made Your World, How the Bible Created the Soul of Western Civilization." And this is a book that looks at how biblical principles began to shape whole cultures and bring about a transformation in whole cultures and shape whole nations. And you've continued that project, Vishal, with your most recent books, including"This Book Changed Everything, the Bible's Amazing Impact on Our World." So thank you for your work, Vishal, thank you for just the prophetic way that you've impacted so many people around the world. I wanted to kind of get into the questioning, I think, just by talking to you a little bit about your recent interview on the Jordan Peterson podcast. We were thrilled to see you being interviewed by Jordan Peterson. I was so excited. Because like Vishal, I think we all in this office, in this team, have become fans of Jordan Peterson, are grateful for his work, and excited to see the way God has clearly been moving in his life, you know, and so to have him interview you, to me was really, really thrilling. And he clearly has read your books and really appreciated them. And so I was curious, Vishal, if you could just tell us a little bit about how that interview came about, how you were introduced to him. A little about backstory, I would love to hear.
Vishal Mangalwadi:Sure, I'll be happy to talk about how that came about. But even more interesting is that tomorrow I'm leaving for Washington, DC to be with Dr. Jordan Peterson in the Museum of the Bible. We will be staying together in the Museum of the Bible where we're filming. He's the main spokesman. But the Daily Wire is making a documentary series on the Bible. So Jordan Peterson is now working with the Daily Wire. And this is Ben Shapiro and his group. So this last book that you refer to "This Book Changed Everything." So Ben Shapiro's producer who will be also directing the documentary series. So what we're doing this week is not podcast, but the documentary series against the Museum of the Bible as the background. So people will be seeing a lot more of us and listening to a lot more of us. And on the 24th Jordan Peterson is will be filmed and on the 25th I will be filmed. In between we might talk to each other on camera, of course, we will be talking to each other without the camera. So this is really God's doing. And it is wonderful that the Museum of the Bible is hosting us and making their facilities available as the studio where the filming happens. Your question is, how did this connection begin? I was in India, when my cardiologist emailed me saying that he's left two phone messages for me and I haven't responded. So he's emailing, if I would be interested in going and listening to Jordan Peterson. I explained to him that I've been in India for six weeks, but I will return before Jordan Peterson comes to Central Valley in California, and I'll be glad to hear him. If I had known that the ticket would be $800 for VIP seat, I probably would have said no. I had assumed it would be$25-50. But actually the cheapest ticket was something like $90 but my cardiologist bought the most expensive tickets so that I could go and get photographed with him. So the reason he did that was because the hall was of course packed with something like 2300 people who had paid the ticket. But there were more people. But these were the people who had bought the tickets, and so only those who had the VIP seats were invited after the lecture, this is almost 11 o'clock at night, to go forward, shake hands with him. And my cardiologist wanted me to give him two of my books. So he, the cardiologist, came to my home, took me from my home, drove me, and we sat right there in front, and gave the books. So when I gave him the book, he looked at the book from which you quoted "The Book that Made Your World," he read the back cover. And he asked me, "Did you write this as an Indian?" So I responded, "Yes, sir. I wrote it before coming to the USA." So he said, I've been looking for something like this, material like this. Now, this is 11 o'clock at night, he's given a big lecture, there are 300 people waiting to shake hands with him. So I didn't take his word seriously, I thought that he has mastered the art of winning friends and influencing people. So I didn't actually The next day in about 30 hours later, I start hearing from believe. different friends of mine, that Dr. Jordan Peterson wants to connect with you. He wants your contact information, should we give it? Now these are people from Germany and other parts who are emailing me, because I had intentionally not put my signature or my contact information on those two books. I wanted him to focus on the message that the Bible is the book that created the modern world, and not be bothered about me. So anyway, we connected and he said that in one half days, he had read that 440 page book. And it spoke to him because of his own intellectual quest, which had been going on for a long time in his life, in his family's life. So the book was just made for him and focused exclusively, read it. And then by the time we talk to you, he had already started the other book. "This Book Changed Everything," which now the Daily Wire is reading, the producer director is reading. So he asked me if I would be available for an interview. He said he'd like to talk for two hours about "The Book that Made Your World." I couldn't believe it. But we did end up having one hour, 47 minute podcast, and they have broken it up into many parts. 10 minutes, 15 minutes, parts. So the main one hour, 47 minutes has been watched almost 258,000 times already. And that will grow. But the Lord using that to open up the possibility of the Daily Word doing the series. And actually last night
at about 1:50am. I sent to Dr. Peterson, my manuscript "Healing the Open Wounds of Islam," because he has massive following amongst Muslims in the Middle East.
Scott:Jordan Peterson does?
Vishal Mangalwadi:Oh, yes. It's amazing how many Muslims are listening to them? Also Hindus. But so he's been keen to do a interview with me on Islam. So I just this morning sent him that manuscript. And I wanted to get that done, because we have some other deadlines to finish today. But I know a publisher, actually I might mention them, HarperCollins, are looking at that book on Islam, how to ring healing to the nations. And I have also asked some contacts if we can, at least, to request President George Bush to write the foreword to this new book on Islam. Because in two or three of the chapters I critique, President Bush and some of the other presidents in America including his father. I'm respectful towards them. But I do critique them, that Islam has hurt Muslims all over the world. But America has also hurt Muslims. American policy has hurt Muslims, while churches have served Muslims to wire missionaries. But American policies have hurt, caused some of the wounds. There were reasons why Khomeini called America "The Great Satan." And I'm listening to their criticism of America. And so Jordan Peterson requested that he would like to interview me for another podcast on Islam. So I sent him the manuscript this morning.
Scott:I hope that happens. I would love to hear that interview as well. And maybe we could have you back on to talk, that would be a whole other subject. It'd be fascinating to talk to you about, Vishal. But...
Vishal Mangalwadi:Yes, actually, I'm looking for someone who will do a final proofreading of that book. It has to be reformatted, proof read and reformatted, before I send it to President Bush or someone like him for the foreword.
Luke:Hi, friends, if you enjoy listening to Ideas Have Consequences and want to help us share it, please consider sending your favorite episode to a friend. And while you're at it, go ahead and leave us a rating and review on Apple podcast or wherever you're listening. By the way, those ratings really help us reach more people. So if you'd like to leave us one, but don't know how, if you're on Apple podcast, which I know most of you are, just go to the Ideas Have Consequences homepage, and then scroll down to almost the bottom and you'll see the ratings and review area there. If you'd like to listen to the episode of the Jordan V. Peterson podcast with Vishal Mangalwadi as the guest, we have links to that, as well as a few of Vishal's books that we've referenced in this episode, in the episode landing page on our website. So to visit that page, just click the link down in the show notes below. Again, thank you for listening to Ideas Have Consequences, and I hope you enjoy the rest of the show.
Scott:Well, that's so interesting to hear about how you were connected to Dr. Jordan Peterson and how that all worked out. And yeah.
Vishal Mangalwadi:This was God God doing?
Scott:Yeah, no, clearly. And using your cardiologist, why don't you thank him on our behalf that he thought to get you to the event, and you were able to give him your books. I'd love to hear your theory about why he's become so popular and what's going on there. Only God really knows. But I, you know, I look at a guy like Jordan Peterson, and it's phenomenal, the following that he's developed. And kind of the question that arises, why? What's going on? But when I look at him, I see a guy who, you know, he's clearly interested in in good and evil. And you know, he's very anxious to prevent evil from happening in the world. I think about things like, you know, the gulags and the concentration camps, and he knows that human beings, as a psychologist, are capable of evil. So how do we stop this evil? He's seeing these changes happening in the West that he's very alarmed by, you know, the erosion of free speech. And he's kind of an old school liberal, freedom of religion. He's concerned about all of these things. And it seems to me that what it's done is it's led him to kind of ask the question, where did these things come from in the first place? You know, how did we is the West, the United States, Canada, how did we develop these values that respect these things? And it's led him to the Bible. And you know, so he's become very interested in the Bible. And I actually enjoy listening to his lectures on the Bible, because he brings a fresh kind of outsider's perspective to the Bible. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. You know what, what has made him so interested in the Bible? Your books are perfect for him, Vishal, because you're writing about just the thing, the itch that he has, you're scratching with your books.
Vishal Mangalwadi:Yes, that's true. I must confess that I've yet to read his books, and understand him and his influence, why he appeals and learn from him. I've also yet to get into a habit of listening to various podcasts, the interviews, etc. So I have not taken the time yet because of the third education revolution, which is exploding globally. And I'm fully occupied with that, actually, right now we're editing the first sample lesson to create a course for training academic pastors. So third education revolution is trying to take the responsibility for educating nations back from the state and give it to the church. This means the church has to have gifted spirit annointed teachers. Teaching is a gift of the Spirit. Secularism has commercialized this as a job. And so this is exploding. And we are hoping to launch just in Latin America and Africa, all the English speaking, Spanish speaking countries, this education revolution. So that has taken up so much of my time, that in spite of my desire to read Jordan Peterson, I haven't really got that started. But I will.
Scott:That's so interesting that you said you haven't really—so you weren't that familiar with his, what he was teaching his books and things like.
Vishal Mangalwadi:No. And if I knew that the ticket is $100 to go and listen to him, I wouldn't have gone because I wouldn't have had the courage even to ask my wife if I can spend $100 on going and listening to him. So a lot had to get my cardiologist and he's not my friend, he's my doctor. But he had read my books. So he felt that this is what Jordan Peterson.
Scott:He's probably a fan of Jordan. Well, it's interesting you say that, because I was thinking you had done your homework, actually, in that interview, for example, early in the interview, you know, you share your testimony as a young man of how you came to Christ. And it had to do with just, you know, you were convicted of your own sinful behaviors, right? And you knew that you couldn't change make this, you couldn't become good apart from God. Apart from the power of the Holy Spirit, and the work of God. And I thought that was a perfect thing to say to a guy like Jordan Peterson, who, you know, he's all about helping people get better "The Twelve Rules," and this and that. There were several things like that in the interview, I thought, Wow, you really responded very powerfully to, to kind of what he's teaching us.
Vishal Mangalwadi:Well, yeah. The backstory of that is that I did want to listen to him and read him. Ruth bought for me one of his books, so that I'm familiar with who am I talking to. But it was I think, Jack McGregor from L'Abri in Rochester, Minnesota. I asked some friends to pray for this interview. And Jack wrote to me that I must sleep well before I talk to Jordan Peterson, but I couldn't. The second thing he said was, don't bother about what he believes. You read your own books. Because the interview is not about what he thinks. The interview is about what you think. So you study your own books. And that was very helpful. So instead of taking the time to listen to Jordan Peterson, I did take some time to read my book, particularly"The Book that Made Your World" and that was really God speaking through Jack McGregor. And this is not to dishonor Jordan Peterson, but I haven't read him as yet. I do intend to. But once again, for the interview theday after tomorrow, I am reading my own books rather than his book. Because this time it's actually asking Os Guinness because Os is there in Washington, DC. I wrote to him that I'm coming and he promptly replied, "Speak boldly. Go boldly." So one aspect of the answer to your main question about why does Jordan Peterson appeal? One answer is that he is confident about what he's saying, in that he comes across as prophetic. Everybody knows that the liberal universities are talking nonsense, that they are so blind that they don't even know what is male and what is female and what is love and what is marriage, but he comes across as somebody who knows, who has thought these things through and who speaks. So while he speaks with conviction, he is not a fundamentalist, in the sense that he's all the time willing to listen and interact with people, like this biologist from Oxford.
Scott:Richard Dawkins.
Vishal Mangalwadi:Richard Dawkins. So he's interviewing all sorts of people, Bill Maher and Richard Dawkins. He's listening to everyone. And he does a very good job. Of course, he's a very sharp mind. And but he does his homework, in terms of reading people that he's talking to, and understanding what their arguments are. So some of the scientists, philosophers, psychologists, politicians that he's interviewing, so he listens, but he speaks with clarity and conviction. And that's what Os Guinness just asked me to do. And I saw that as the Lord speaking to me, that, yes, Jordan Peterson himself, needs to hear clearly if the Bible is God's word. So one of my frustration with American theologians, who are always talking about the Bible as stories. Genesis 1:1 says,"In the beginning, God created heavens and the earth." Now, no one was there to witness the act of creation. So did someone speculate? Is it a story, that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth? Or is it revelation? God alone was there. Is he telling us? If this is revelation, why is the American church afraid of calling the Bible God's Word, God's revelation? Always calling it stories. So this is the epistemological surrender. And actually, at that point, Jordan Peterson is sharing this changing epistemology that the Bible is story, Bible is collection of stories. And, of course, Steve Green, who's the founder, chairman of the Museum of the Bible, in his book, "The Bible as a Dangerous Book," he also paints the Bible as a story. So in this epistemological context, with the following Nietzsche, following Carl Jung, following Joseph Campbell, that the American mind has ceased to have the confidence that the Bible is God's word, that the Bible is Revelation. So either the phrase in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth is revelation, is truth, or it is story and speculation. Some wise people thinking how—but in fact, all the scientific theories today, they are speculations, how the universe may have existed forever, or maybe part of multiverse, or may have popped into existence for no reason out of nothing. Or that it might be a 3D holographic game, which some teenage boys and another galaxy, another time, have invented, that this is what the universe is. So the scientific world is littered with stories about how the universe came into existence. But is the universe actually created by God in the beginning? That's revelation. Either it is revelation, or it is speculation, which we call story. So this is where the word from Os is very helpful, that as I go, I need to go with humility. But I need to go with clarity and conviction to speak.
Scott:Yeah, I think that's a good word. I think. You know, it seems to me Jordan Peterson really appreciates and he understands the power of these biblical ideas, but to say that they're Truth with a capital T, objective Truth, revelation from God, I feel like, only God knows his heart, but it feels like he's not quite ready to go there yet. But he certainly understands the power of these ideas and they're the power for good and shaping culture. And I think he understands that better than frankly a lot of Christians do, which I give him a lot of credit for. So.
Vishal Mangalwadi:Yes, actually, I have a feeling that he is ready to consider the possibility of revelation. God speaking. And he may suspect that that is indeed the case because he does say that "I'm not an atheist, if God is there, is he able to speak? Is He able to communicate?" and Carl Jung, when Jung is playing with the idea that our personal unconscious mind may actually be a part of a collective unconscious, this collective unconscious as an infinite, not necessarily personal being, in Carl Jung. But Carl Jung move towards Hindu idea that there is an infinite ocean of consciousness which is God, we are dropped in that ocean, and but we are connected. We may be a wave, but the wave is part of the ocean. But what is the connection of—if you give up the idea, that the human mind is nothing but chemistry, that is chemical reactions happening in our brain, which produce consciousness and personal consciousness, if you begin to think that no consciousness spirit might be more than chemistry, that body and soul is in fact, body is material is chemistry. But God breathed his spirit into man. Therefore, Adam became a living soul. So the spirit dimension—because the problem of what is language? What is logic? What is morality, conscience? Is conscience, culturally conditioned chemistry, or is conscience God's voice that's telling me that I'm wrong? That is not product of my brain chemistry. What is beauty? What is mathematics? What is music? Like people like St. Augustine had realized that if music can be written, then music is rational, somebody who has never actually heard the music, but can read it and play it. Music is rational, therefore, it is eternal. This was St. Augustine's idea, that this is part of the spiritual dynamic, spiritual reality of the universe, which is not material, therefore, it's not perishable. So I think Jordan Peterson, I suspect that he is actually quite ready. And if he does come through, with a clear conviction, that the Bible is in fact, God's revelation, it's God's word. That would really changed theology in America, because it is evangelical universities, including places like Biola and all, that are having very hard time in affirming that the Bible is revelation, that the Bible is God's word. They'll always keep talking about the Bible is stories.
Scott:Hmm. Wow, that's interesting, Vishal. Tell me a little bit more about the video, the documentary, that that you're going to be doing tomorrow. What is the title or what's the purpose of it?
Vishal Mangalwadi:The Daily Wire is part of the conservative movement in America, which both on the defensive, but actually they are more on the offensive than the evangelical movement against the liberalsb because people like Jordan Peterson have been victims of liberalism in liberal universities, where it's very hard for anybody with clear convictions in sanity to remain in his office. He was forced out. So they are in a sense fighting back, that so much of culture has been lost. The tolerance is has disappeared from Canadian universities, Canadian culture, and it's disappearing from American universities and the media. So they're deeply concerned. And how to restore conservative values. And they are suspecting—well, was not suspecting—they're very clear in their minds, that even if they don't personally believe the Bible to be God's word and truth, that the conservative values that they love, including the dignity of human rights, the value of marriage, faithfulness in marriage, etc, the conservative values which they love, they have come from the Bible. Whether or not the Bible is true, it is the source of the modern world. This much is clear to them. So they are paying so much attention to the Bible, even if they don't really believe the Bible to be God's word. They're looking at it through Jongian, Joseph Campbell's eyes, that these are very useful stories that shaped the Western culture, the best of what we see. Now Tom Holland in England, who wrote the book,"Dominions," he is the Jordan Peterson of England, although he's not as prophetic as Jordan Peterson. He's very clear, he knows exactly what he's talking about. But he's not challenging British and European illiberalism and corruption, which has come through the liberals in Europe. But he is that kind of a voice who is saying that I'm personally not a Christian, but culturally, I'm a Christian. That everything good, that I consider good, that I cherish, has come from the Bible and from the crowd.
Scott:If you're not familiar with Tom Holland's book"Dominian," that's a great book to read. He's a non-Christian like Jordan Peterson, although again, like Jordan Peterson, he's moving towards Christ kind of quickly and it may have crossed the line even. Very much like your books, Vishal, he's looking at biblical ideas and how they've just saturated Western culture. And we take them for granted. We don't even know where they've come from. But they've shaped everything around us. And he's exploring that. So yeah. Excellent book to consider. Go ahead.
Vishal Mangalwadi:In case you haven't heard it, I had one hour debate with him. It is on the internet. Because he remarked that modern democracy of freedom had come from Greece. And I wrote in the chatbox on that Zoom, that no, that's wrong. It didn't come from Greece. So the hosts who was hosting him, Jeff Fountain, he read my comment to challenging Tom Holland. And he asked if Tom Holland and I would talk about it. So we did. This is on the internet. And I challenged him that modern freedom came from the Bible, not from Greece, democracy did not come from Greece, the modern democracy. And in that one, our discussion three times Tom Holland—he's a professional historian, I'm not—but he conceded three times that actually, he had never studied the history of freedom, the history of democracy, of how, after the Reformation, democracy came to Scotland and spread from there in Europe, some countries of Europe and then America, etc. So I have a one hour debate with him. That's more of a debate, because he didn't know who I was and where I was coming from. But Peterson's podcast is not a debate, because Peterson had already read my book and realized that I was saying things that need to be heard. So he was a lot more supportive and sympathetic in giving me the freedom to express my views which he had read and generally agreed with, even though he wasn't convinced that the Bible is God's word. So that interview with Tom Holland is very important, and I hope that you will watch it.
Scott:I'm glad to hear that. I'll definitely tune into that. And by the way, if you haven't, I'm speaking to the listeners here. If you haven't listened to Vishal's interview with Jordan Peterson, I highly encourage you to do that. Just Google "Vishal Mangalwadi Jordan Peterson interview." It will explain in the course of that interview, what it means to disciple nations and the power of biblical truth to transform culture. It's just so powerful, Vishal, when I listened to you talk to Dr. Peterson. I mean, it was just so inspiring and refreshing because it reminded me of what I care so deeply about, which is reminding the church of these precious gems and jewels that we have these biblical truths, that really are incredibly powerful. They have the power to transform. And so I just encourage everyone to listen to that. So listen to that interview. Go ahead. Thank you.
Dwight:Yeah. Vishal, I have a question. You've been referring to this idea of story in the Bible as a story and then as God's direct revelation, and I'm thinking in my own life, you know, I've come out of the literal Bible, where if it wasn't translated into the King James, it was the wrong translation, because every word is divinely inspired. And there's no errors in the Bible. And that's one train of thought that has been in the evangelical history forever, it seems like. But now we have the Emergent Church, we have deconstruction, and the Bible is a story and always got good ideas and good stories, and there may be truth hidden in the story. What would you say to the deconstructionist emergent church leader?
Scott:Yeah, and Vishal, if I can piggyback on what you're saying too, you mentioned that, you know, even our most Orthodox Bible schools like Biola, you mentioned, and others are struggling with this. That's a bit new. That's news to me Vishal because I was kind of where Dwight was on this, that kind of the inerrancy of the scripture, I didn't realize that maybe you've got some perspective that I don't have yet that. That this kind of postmodern idea has really taken root, even in places that are very traditionally conservative Christian.
Vishal Mangalwadi:Well, regarding Biola, the best thing to do is Google "Scarlett Clay," Clay C-L-A-Y. She did MA in Apologetics in Biola. Right now she's doing PhD, not in Biola somewhere else. But she did MA Apologetics in Biola. And from day one, she was shocked that the apologetics department in Biola was arguing the case that God probably exists. We have good reasons to believe why God exists. And is God a conclusion of human logic and reason that we have? He exists because we can argue the case for his existence? Or do we believe in him as Moses, because He reveals Himself to us. So the Word became flesh, we beheld his glory. We did not reason that he is there. But the Christian faith is based on God's self revelation. So it is the apologetics program in most of evangelical seminaries and universities that are undermining the foundation. So part of the implication, or the background of my comment on Biola was William Lane Craig, with his book on "Is Genesis 1–11 Mytho-History?" It is basically a myth where history is fused in. So he's the star apologist, still on the faculty of Biola. So Adam and Eve are not historical people. They evolved over hundreds of 1000s of years is basically what William Lane Craig is saying.
Scott:Is that right? You're saying things I didn't realize Vishal that's that's really surprising to me. So yeah.
Vishal Mangalwadi:So yeah, his book has been reviewed. It's very popular. "Is Genesis 1–11 Mytho-History?" This was going on 50 years ago. And that's why Francis Schaeffer, his book,"Genesis in Space and Time," was already answering that. And then Lausanne covenant was putting a stop to this academic discussion, whether Genesis is story or whether Genesis is revelation. So when Lausanne covenant said that the Bible is true in all that it affirms, that God created Adam and Eve in his image. This is not speculation or story, but this is revelation, this is truth. So this is what William Lane Craig who is America's premier apologist right now, after Robbie's Christ. So if you just Google Scarlett Clay, and she has her own website, she's an artist and see what's really going on. Right now a Indian woman who is a militant Hindu, and attacks Christianity on YouTube, I forget her name. But she's being championed by militant Hindus such as Rajiv Malhotra. She is a graduate of apologetics from one of the evangelical seminaries, she was a Brahmin converted to Pentecostalism, married to a nominal Christian who allowed her to be a Pentecostal. She went to the study apologetics and realize that apologetics is really not sure if God exists, because we can prove human reason, prove its existence. So what had happened in in Europe with René Descartes and David Hume, 300-400 years ago is now happening in America. So American Christianity is on a course for self destruction, because it does not find the conviction that the Bible is God's word, that the Bible is God's revelation, that God knows how to speak. Because he speaks, he made us in His image, we speak. And he speaks, because just like we communicate with our children, God wants to teach us the truth. And so he says, if you abide in my word, you will know the truth. Because his his word is his self revelation. So this problem began with Gordon Conwell, many years ago. They wouldn't say the Bible is revelation, they would say Bible is narrative. So the whole narrative perspective, which morphed into story, that the American full time preachers, theologians, they are too ashamed to admit that what they're saying is, the Bible is a religious myth. If they say the Bible is myth, average American will stop funding them. So finances will dry. So you can't say that it is a myth. You say it's a story. And it's a collection of stories. And this is where so—no, Peterson is not here. He believes that Bible is stories and significant stories, true stories, true in the sense of psychologically true. But he's not living as a evangelical, dependent on evangelical donors, and therefore he has to call the Bible, a story. He can't call the Bible as myth. But he's struggling in it, as I see it. And I may be wrong, that he is struggling, that could this actually be true? Not just a story that someone made up. Like William Lane Craig will call it myth-o history, basically, myth fused with some history. So these issues are yet to be debated. And I suspect that on 24th/25th, when I'm with them in Washington, DC, we will not have enough time to go into the details of this discussion, but may the Lord open a friendship and relationship where we can debate the question clearly. Is the Bible really true?
Scott:Yeah. Yeah. Well, I agree with this issue.
Vishal Mangalwadi:If it is true, we have to take a stand that this is true. So the whole conservative movement knows that the values they cherish, such as Tom Holland, in England, the values that we cherish come from the Bible. But do they come from Bible stories, or do they come from Revelation?
Scott:Yeah, well, you need to be bold, Vishal, I fully underscore what os Guiness was telling you that we need to be bold and saying that this is true because God spoke it, wholly apart from what we think about it. So that's so important. Vishal, I want to shift gears a little bit, if you don't mind, because I wanted to talk about—
Vishal Mangalwadi:So did I answer Dwight's question?
Dwight:Yes, you got to it.
Vishal Mangalwadi:Okay.
Dwight:But it's a huge issue. And in my own family and connections, that it's a growing issue. So...
Vishal Mangalwadi:Yes, you know, we've never publicly thanked you for the role you played in Phoenix consultation for the education revolution. But you were the host and organizer. And from there, the movement has really exploded globally. So we're very grateful for the tremendous promotion that DNA gave to the book on William Carey. You wrote the study guide, and particularly Darrow wrote the study guide for that. And then you wrote the study guide for "Truth and Transformation." And YWAM has just reprinted that book, so it has remained in print all these years, and you have been supporting it. So thank you, sir. I agree with you that we have to talk a lot more about the story. But let's go on with another question.
Scott:Well, I wanted to come to a point in your discussion with Jordan Peterson where it was such a fascinating discussion there. I took copious notes be shallow. I've got my notes in front of me right now. But there was one point where you were talking about the missionary movement to India, particularly, during the time of William Wilberforce, and this was during the time that India was a colony of England and the British East India Company was there trading, essentially. And there was a great revival with Wesley and Wilberforce was a part of that revival. And it caused them to think differently about their colonies, including India. And Wilberforce raised the question, are we there in India, to as British, as England, are we there to loot it? Or are we there to bless it? And you had this discussion on how the church in England, Wilberforce and others were saying, No, it says in the Bible, that God's providential plan is to bless all nations, going back to Genesis 12. God created the nation's he wants to see the nation's blast. So we need to be in India, to bless the nation, not just to loot it, not just to treat it as a vassal state, in this empire type of way. And so, consequently, when the charter was renewed for the British East India Company, all this money was set aside to bring in educators to India, to educate, the leaders of India, the people of India, so that they could govern themselves as a free nation. And Jordan Peterson's comment was, you know, just he was struck by that, like, what a weird thing to do. That really played against the financial interests of England. Where did this idea that we should bless another nation come from? And that kind of then morphed into a discussion, how that led to the translation of the Bible into the Indian dialects, and that allowed for the universities to emerge in India. And you made the point that I just will read a little bit of my notes here. Vishal, you said it was necessary to do this translating the Bible, helping people to learn to read, to study the Scriptures, because God created people to rule, to self govern, to be kings and queens in creation, to be vice regents. Jesus died so that slaves of Satan are transformed into sons of God serving their father and managing his affairs. Everyone becomes a king carrying out the will of the King of kings. But what is God's will that's people are supposed to carry out? It is to know it. The Bible is necessary in every person's mother tongue, and so as education in the Bible, and then the key idea is that the thrust of the whole missionary enterprise was to do that, was to equip people to rule, to self govern, to know the truth, to read the Bible, so that they could rule over God's creation for His glory. And I thought about that, and I thought that understanding of Christian missions has really been lost. You know, if I was to go into the average church today, you know, and I ask Christians what's the mission of the church? They would say things like, you know, it's to evangelize, to save souls, to plant churches. Those are all good things and true things, very fundamental things. But they wouldn't say things like, train people to rule and to govern God's creation and to bless nations, to see nations blessed. Missions used to be understood as equipping people to bless the nations. And today it's understood as saving souls and planting churches. You know, those are very different. Those go in very different directions. And I was wondering if could you just comment on that, Vishal. I was really struck by that part of your conversation and how earlier generations of missionaries and Protestant missionary folks really did have a very different vision for what this whole enterprise was to be than we do today.
Vishal Mangalwadi:True. So, the person who really influenced Wilberforce, regarding India was Charles Grant. He had come to India, as a private servant of a British employee of East India Company, he had seen the terrible famine and the damage that East India Company had done to the economy of Bengal. He made his money, got married, came back to England— no he came back to England and got married. Then he came return to India, this time as an employee of the East India Company. And he began indulging in the English public life of partying and gambling and clubs. But two of his daughters died due to malaria within a week of each other, which drove his wife to Christ. So this is where Wesleyan revival has taken off from America's first Great Awakening. Whitfield goes to England and fires up John Wesley, with open air preaching. So England is going through its own great awakening, which is called the Wesleyan revival. And Whitfield is going and supporting it to the American charities, financing that. So number of soul offices in British East India Company are getting converted. Charles Grant joins a Bible study group, a small group of men who begin to read the Bible and pray in India. And then these people who are reading the Bible realize that God called Abraham to follow him that if you follow me, I will bless you, I will make you a great nation. Because through you, I want to bless all the nations. Once he understands that Britain is sending only merchants and soldiers to make money in India, and rule over India and loot India, that no British church should be sending missionaries. The concept of missionaries was not there. So in 1792, while William Carey is a cobbler, a Baptist, he writes his book, on an inquiry whether the obligation to disciple nations is upon us also or was it only for the first century church at that time? Grant writes another book, same year, 1792, except that Grant's book is not printed, it is copied. So instead of printing houses, you had copyists companies that would have 50 copiers, who would hand copy the book at a time. And this book was written for the members of parliament and Wilberforce was a member of parliament. And Wilberforce encouraged the writing of this book, because this was Grant's observations of the life in Asia and the British rule. This was the most systematic and incisive observation of what he had seen is happening in India and he is the prophet of modern India. He goes on to become the director of East India Company, because of support a Wilberforce and the bankers who were there in a Clapham sack. They buy enough stocks to put their people to change the East India Company. And then he goes on to become the Member of Parliament. So he is an MP by 1830. By 1812, the House of Commons asked his book to be published at the government expense, because for 20 years, there has been nothing better written that explains what's happening in India. And he's the one. So, William Kelly is already there in India running his mission, but by 1812, when Grant's book becomes available to British Parliament, then the mood changes and because the book is printed, and is being read by influential Christians in England, the realization that this is not God's will, that we should go to in India to loot India, but God's will is that we should go to India to bless India. So, this is a providential perspective on history. Secular history believes God doesn't act in history. And most Christians who study history, they accept a secular premise that history is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing, there is no purpose, there is no meaning. There is nobody guiding history. But if Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, if all things exist for His glory, for his purposes, then what is happening in nations, etc, and what does God want us to do with nation? So this providential perspective of history was very important for that generation. And it was reinforced by Newtonian physics, which we don't need to get into. But the whole worldview developed of Providence—of what in theological language, you will call Calvinist will, of God guiding, shaping history. So there are a number of issues which your very important question has raised. But my first important answer is that yes, we have adopted a secular view of history, that God isn't interested in nations. God is interested in souls. God is interested in heaven. He's not interested in bringing healing to the nations. But from the very purpose of calling Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, that through their seed, in fact, going back to Genesis 3, that the seed of each seed of the woman will crush the head of the serpent. And this is the purpose of Messiah coming. So yes, in the beginning of the ministry of Jesus before Jesus begins his public ministry, Satan tempts him. And both Matthew 4 and Luke 4 tell us that Satan says these are my kingdoms. Rome is an empire. Under Rome, there are tons of kingdoms, many of them Jesus can see from a high mountain, as the Tiberius is visible, Jerusalem may be visible. So, "These are my kingdoms, I will give them to you, if you fall down and worship me." Is Satan bluffing Jesus, that the kingdoms is well that his kingdoms? No. Jesus agrees that he is the prince of this world, he is going to be judged on the crops. So yes, kingdom of Satan is real. And the whole language of the kingdom of God is in the context in opposition to the kingdom of Satan. So what is the kingdom of God? Jesus is saying that the kingdom of God is like a sower sowing the seed. Now this is the heart of DNA. Your show is called Ideas Have Consequences. So a sower is sowing the word. The word is seed. The word is ideas. If you throw a bomb on a crowd, you will get front page news all over the world. The bombs attract attention, but revolutions are caused by ideas. So Jesus is sowing the seed. And he's asking us to go and sow the seed, which is the ideas that change history. So that's what William Carey and William Wilberforce, the vote in 1813 that the East India Company should set aside 100,000 rupees which is like 100,000 pounds at that time to educate India, is that we should sow the seeds of transforming India. Unfortunately, a lot of our eschatology sees that, well, no, no Jesus did not come as king. He did not enter Jerusalem on the donkey as a king, although the scripture says beginning with Zechariah, and all the Gospels say that he was the king, who was entering with humility on a donkey, rather than a horse as Zechariah had prophesied. But he did not come as the king, he will come as a king later, when he comes riding on a white horse in Revelation 11, with a sword coming out of his mouth. Sword doesn't come out of his mouth. Seed is the sword. The word of God—which is a seed—is sharper than any double edged sword, it comes from the mouth of God. And it slays evil, the kingdom of darkness, it transforms the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light. So that's the heart of DNA, that we are sowing ideas that will have consequences in transforming the kingdom of Satan, into kingdom of God. Because as people receive the seed of God's Word, the seed grows, changes them from inside, it renews their mind, and then the fruit of the kingdom becomes visible. So that's what these people understand that the kingdom has come, the kingdom grows by sowing seed. And as we sow the seed, the kingdom of Satan is transformed into kingdom of God.
Scott:And these seeds, these seeds include truths like men and women are made by God in His image, with God given dignity and immeasurable worth. And when that idea takes root, when that seed begins to take root and bear fruit in a culture, it transforms the culture, because that idea isn't inherent in Satan's kingdom. It's just the opposite. So that's what we're talking about.
Vishal Mangalwadi:So I have a video actually, I have five videos, four of them are on YouTube, that homosexuality, which is capturing the West, is a philosophical triumph of Hinduism, in the West. Hinduism believes in Monism that all reality is one. Mono. All reality is one. The dualism of male and female is an illusion. You can believe in the dualism of male and female, only if you have a Triune God, that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, say, Let's make man in our image, he makes men male and female, for the two of them to be one, so that they become three. I have a baby with my wife, we began three. We become a family and family is what makes me more like God. Transforms me. Is for my sanctification. So the secular world cannot believe in the ultimate fundamental dualism of male and female, if it rejects Trinity. This is the area where I have to talk with people like Jordan Peterson, who is defending marriage, who is defending the traditional distinction between male and female. But philosophically, you cannot believe in dualism of male and female, if you don't begin with the Trinity, and this is Carl Jung's problem. So, this is an area where I have to, in God's time, be able to discuss with Carl Jung's collective unconsciousness, which is monism that we are all one. You cannot have it this dualism of male and female. So, I don't expect the documentary to be able to go into this discussion, but by your prayers, God's grace, if when the opportunity comes, I have to speak these things without bothering whether I will be believed or respected or invited again and not invited again.
Scott:Vishal, we've probably reached the end of our time. If I could, just allow me one more question maybe just as a wrap up here, you know, I do feel like this vision of discipling nations, of sowing these seeds of truth that bring about a transformation that enable God's kingdom to grow and expand and and bless nations. You know, because the church has forgotten that for a variety of reasons and we've lost that sense of mission, somebody's always discipling the nation, if you will, somebody's always trying is shaping the culture. If it's not the church, it's going to be some other set of ideas. And I think this is why we've seen such an erosion of biblical thinking and biblical truth in the West, is the church has kind of just not done that work, while other people have done that work over the last 50 to 100 years. And you've been a voice for kind of raising the alarm on that. Do you see change Vishal or do you have hope right now that things are changing? Or where are you at?
Vishal Mangalwadi:Yes, well, I'm an optimist, of course, because the darkness shall not overcome the light, the light shall overcome darkness. I did find and post a video, 21 minute video, of why Christianity lost America. It's on YouTube. "Why Christianity lost America." As I give what has gone wrong in American Christianity, because of which, evangelical Christianity is a defeated religion in America today, but this is in the context of how the church can actually bring healing to the nation. The American church has the capacity to disciple the USA. The devil is out to deceive the nation and So this is a major disease. And unfortunately, most of the American Christian theologians and institutional leaders are not yet willing to listen and consider this. But I'm grateful he's doing a fantastic job. Churches commissioned to that you have the humility to ask this question. So if you're able to take two hours, 21 minutes, that's a lecture I disciple nation and church is not doing its job, because first gave in L'Abri Rochester in 2014. But it was a shorter version, and the recording wasn't good. So a Lutheran Church in Minnesota, Twin Cities asked me to repeat the lecture. discipling nations, which is your name, DNA, discipling So I was able to give this two hour, 21 minutes, why Christianity lost America, I'm looking for an opportunity to do 10 videos on that, too, because this is six years ago that I had nation, has been reduced to saving souls. So, most people do given the lecture. Since then, I've thought a lot more and read a little bit more. And I can develop each of those 9.5 points—and story one of the point. Morality is another not understand that great groups such as InterVarsity fellowship point, which is half point in those lectures. "Why Christianity has Lost America." This is not a critique of the American church. This is an attempt to revitalize the church. Because the American campus, we'll say Navigators, these movements began as church does have the capacity to disciple the nation. It does not have the theology to disciple nations. Most of the American defeated movements. We have lost the university, we have lost church is not even able to define the word nation. This problem began with Fuller School of World Mission, that nation was reduced to a people group. From that perspective, USA is Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Ivy League colleges, let's go out not in a legitimate nation that God is interested in discipling. And that's why people like Dr. Billy Graham, saved 10s of souls and lost the nation because there was no clear understanding and save souls in these campuses. So Campus Crusade is a of what a nation is. And what does it mean to disciple nation? So that that's a very provocative lecture. But the whole context is positive, bringing healing to the USA, and defeated movement from the beginning. That we are not there through the USA to the whole world. And it is groups such as in diversity in IVP and Campus Crusade, etc, that need to save universities, we have lost universities. We have lost humility, to look back at their founders. What was the mindset of their founders? What were its weaknesses? And how we must move forward, because a lot of these—I named William Lane Christian colleges. Let's retreat into the Bible seminaries. Craig—but in the West is in a terrible shape. And these movements need humility to reconsider their theology, their ethos, and there are people who donate to them. They need to take the time to listen to this long video of "Why Christianity lost America." So the question you have raised is very important. And obviously, we do not have the time to go into the details.
Scott:We'll have you back on, Vishal. Because I would like to hear more of where do we go from here? And what can we do as individual Christians to disciple the nation? Our nation and the nations of the world and recover that vision that earlier generations of Christians had to see the church not just abandon the institutions of the nation, but to sow seeds of biblical truth in a way that transforms those institutions, and really demonstrates love for our neighbor and longs to see the flourishing of society. So love to have you back Vishal, we look forward to seeing you. Obviously, it seems like God providentially has brought you together, Jordan Peterson, you're heading to DC tomorrow to film this documentary with the Daily Wire people and we're so excited to see what God's going to do through all that, including your work in the education revolution. So anyways.
Vishal Mangalwadi:Thank you for your prayers.
Scott:Well, God bless. Thanks for taking time to be with us Vishal . And thank you all for listening to another episode of Ideas Have Consequences, and we'll see you next time. Take care.
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