Ideas Have Consequences
Worldviews shape communities, influence politics, steer economics, set social norms, and ultimately affect the well-being of both your life and your nation. Obedience to the Great Commission involves replacing false ideas with biblical truth. Together with the help of friends, our mission is to demonstrate that only biblical truth leads to flourishing lives, families, societies, and nations. This show explores the intersection of faith and culture, aiming to address pressing societal issues through a biblical lens. Ideas Have Consequences is the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance.
Ideas Have Consequences
Beauty will Save the World: with Zach Dasher
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Beauty can be associated with skin-deep attractiveness, but God's beauty, the beauty of love, humility, and forgiveness, is far more powerful and can never be exhausted. Creation is saturated with God's character and His beauty. This should affect our worship, but does it? Do we have a theology of beauty? Zach Dasher, media producer and nephew of Duck Dynasty's Phil Robertson, joins us today to explain how important beauty is, why people are so hungry for it, and how we can respond to that hunger.
We've been divided based on our racial identities, our sexual identities, our gender, our whatever, whatever, whatever, whatever. And everybody is more isolated than they've ever been. One author says we're drowning in data yet thirsting for meaning. Like it's we're at this place and culture I think post Christian culture is poised to be seen a revival because I think that we are hungering for intimacy that only we can find in the living God.
Luke:Hi friends welcome to a very special episode of ideas have consequences. As Christians our mission is to spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. But our mission also includes just transforming the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected the second part of our mission and today, Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.
Scott:Well, welcome again to another episode of Ideas Have Consequences, the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. My name is Scott Allen, I'm the president of the DNA along with my co workers, Darrow Miller, Luke Allen, Shawn Carson, and we have a really special guest today. Zach Dasher. And so Zach, welcome.
Zach Dasher:Oh, it's great to be here, guys. Thanks for having me on.
Scott:Yeah, Zach, is I'll just give a little bit of a bio. So our audience knows a little bit about who you are Zach. And then we can we can fill that out, obviously, as we go along. But Zach is a he's a follower of Jesus Christ. He's a married father of four, I believe. And you can fill us in a little bit more about and I think you're involved in an adoption right now. And so yeah,
Zach Dasher:So yeah, there's five. There's five kids. Now I've have one that's leaving for college. When I get done with this podcast recording, then I'm driving my daughter, my oldest, to college. And then we have we adopted a baby about a year ago. So we're actually five now.
Scott:That's awesome. Yeah,
Zach Dasher:We'll see what happens.
Scott:Well, well, listen, I've got five kids as well. And you know, those moments of going off to college are real special. So...
Zach Dasher:And expensive. Yeah.
Scott:Yeah, it's true. I know. That's a whole other subject. But anyways, yeah. And then I think Zach is probably best known to the broader, you know, the world as a media producer of podcasts. And really a pioneer of podcasts that sounds like too, Zack, of your connections are with the duck dynasty family and Louisiana. And you're a producer of the Unashamed podcast with Phil Robertson, and Jase Robertson and the Duck Dynasty group, which we are fans of. And so and that's a really important and very popular podcast. And you have connections with many other really well known Christian podcasters, Sadie Roberts and Allie Beth Stuckey. And so and I know you've taken time, you were so gracious when we were beginning our podcast, to help Luke, our producer, get up to speed and and we've just really appreciated your generous willingness to help us with our little podcast effort here too. So it's really an honor to have you with us today. And I, guys, I guess we just want to dive in. But I would love to. I have my my brain is kind of moving at 100 miles an hour in terms of just what we could talk about with you today, Zach, and I think when because we have common interest in biblical worldview, theology culture. And you're so involved with people that are speaking courageously into the culture right now. I'd love to hear kind of what's on your heart. What, what's God got you focused on right now? What are you interested in or passionate in just regarding where we're at, as a church and as a nation right now? I know, that's a broad question, but I just kind of wanted to get a sense of where you're at today.
Zach Dasher:No, that's good. That's a great question. Yeah, so my background is it looks very, it's, I have a lot of different things I've done. I started off in business. And I'm telling you this because I think it'll coalesce into kind of where my passion is right now. And you can kind of see how I've arrived at the place that I am today and what I'm what we're trying to do as a company and really in our ministry, because all these things kind of collide together. But I started off in business and I spent about 15 years as a sales rep and account manager for different biotech companies and pharmaceutical companies. And then in 2014, I got involved with a political campaign that in Louisiana with a guy running for Senate, he was trying to get to my—so my family is the duck dynasty family. So Phil and Si are my mom's brothers. And so they were trying to get that coveted endorsement from Phil. And so they call me and I was talking with a guy and he was a political consultant—make a long story short, and that during that time period are sitting congressman got into a scandal. And his seat was, we thought his seat would be vacant because he said he was going to run again. And so these guys that maybe he should run for office, you know, so I ran for I actually ran for US Congress, and I thought I was going to go into politics and and I ended up losing. It was a very, very tight race. I mean, I lost by just a few 100 votes. But I'll be honest with you, like the whole time, like this is not for me, I kept thinking of that line. I can't remember who said it, like politics is downstream of culture. I think Nancy Pearcey told it to me, but I don't remember who originally said it. And I can't think and politics is downstream of culture. I still found myself kind of back in the political thing, though, because I had made so many contacts. And that was really where a lot of my passion was, because I was like, I want to, I want to do things that impact the kingdom and look at these centers of power. And if we get into where legislation is being passed, and policies being made, and that's where we can go and, and my platform is very simple. It was that in the absence of God, man becomes the determiner of all things, including the value of your life, but it's not just any man that gets to determine that, it's the one that's got the biggest stick. And that's happens to be our governments. And so the state comes in and, you know the whole argument. I mean, you guys have probably written about this. But for me, I just that wasn't where I think God had me. You know, long term, I think, you know, I was in, I was in New York, in 2016 working on the presidential campaign, it just was not I'm like, I was morally compromised on that. Why am I here? Oh, my God, he had me here. And I just kept hearing that phrase, politics is downstream of culture. And that's when I decided to—I quit, I said, I'm this is not me, I'm not doing it. I don't feel I don't feel connected with kind of what this is, I kept thinking about this sermon that I once heard, I didn't hear it in person because this was before my time but Francis Schaeffer had given a talk to I think it was coral, mostly Coleridge Baptist Church in Florida, a coral reef or something. And he was talking about this conservative resurgence that had just happened in in the election cycle. And he said, this very interesting line, he said, he said that never forget this. He said, conservative humanism is still humanism. It doesn't matter the color of the variation, it's humanism is the problem. And so, you know, through that whole political thing, I just, I really kind of saw how the sausage was made. And I'm like, and that's not really what I think God's called me to. And so I went into doing media and not just Christian media, but just media as a Christian, and which I appreciate Darrow I told you Before the podcast started, I read his article, how to be how to be a Christian balladeer, or we need more Christian validate. I can't remember the name of the article, but it like really impact—
Darrow:"Call of the Balladeer"
Zach Dasher:It was so beautifully written. And I'm so excited that you have a book coming out too on the subject, because I was like this idea of moving past just like kind of like this cognition. And I love Christian worldview discussions, and I love equipping the saints. But man, we have to show a transcendent beauty if we're going to really attract people to the kingdom. And it's not seeker friendly, we're actually showing the transcendent beauty of God. And we could do that a lot of different ways. So in our work, and my business and and tread lightly, what I'm most passionate about is looking for creative ways to show the beauty of the Triune God and then and then us being reflectors of that and being image bearers. And that may be on the nose, it may not be on the nose, it may be something more subtle. So that's, that's what I'm most passionate about right now is looking at ways to explore that.
Scott:Huh? Wow, that's so interesting. That's, I guess, maybe not what I expected you to say. So you're focused, if I'm hearing you correctly, you're focused right now on that aspect of beauty. And just the you know, we talk often at the truth and goodness and beauty is the hallmarks of the Kingdom of God, of God himself, that it's really focused on the beauty aspect of that right now. Is that correct Zach?
Zach Dasher:Yeah, absolutely. I think when you look at even the way that we were talking earlier about discussions of like gender masculinity and all these things, when we had these discussions that I think we got to back up a little bit. I live in a very post Christian culture here in Asheville, North Carolina. It's a lot like Portland, Oregon or San Francisco. It's interesting, because at the same time, you also have this deep rooted Presbyterian roots here as well. So it's but there was a college here in the town that I live in called Black Mountain College, which was been coined the cradle of post modernity and American culture, they used to have a lot of postmodern poets would come through. So you have this intellectually rich heritage, but there's also like this very secular side of it, too. And it's very kind of new age, post Christian culture. And so I just think that like a lot of our questions that we're asking, when we talk about transcendent beauty, like if we just go into it with just the worldview stuff with just the answer, I heard one author say it's like going in, we moved into the inner cities with all the questions to the answers that nobody was asking. You know, so I think that apologetics serves a purpose. But I think that we need a new apologetic that appeals to beauty. And I think that, because that's the level that we live on, right? We live at the level of desire. And so how do we show I'm looking at ways how do we show God for just the incredible beauty that he is? You know,
Scott:That's fantastic.
Darrow:Let me throw a couple of things in just responding to what you've said, Zack. Politics is downstream from culture. And culture is downstream from worship. Culture is downstream from cult—cult being worship. And the God that we worship as Christians is glorious. He is beautiful. And if we worship the one who is beautiful and the source of beauty, that should be reflected in culture. Yeah. And we have today so much within Protestantism, and evangelicalism is a theology of utility, theology of pragmatic pragmatism, what's what's going to work? What's going to sell? We don't have a theology of beauty. And that's where I'm affirming what you've said, we need to begin. And beauty is the gateway to goodness and truth. Yeah. But we tend to begin as evangelicals with truth or goodness, and the culture is not there.
Zach Dasher:Now, that's man, what a great point. Somebody gave me a book is headmaster at my kids school, who actually spent time at L'Abri. And he gave me a book called "Desiring the Kingdom" by James K.A. Smith. And so I was reading it. And he makes this incredible point in there that, he tells a story about this guy who goes to the grocery store, and he's driving home, you know, and he goes to the grocery store, he buys groceries, I don't know what he gets, I can't remember he's given all the details. And he's telling the story of this guy, who ends up at his house after going home from work, going to the grocery store. He said, How many times have you done that? And how many times when you are driving? Did you cognitively think, okay, I need to take a left here, I need to take a right here, like you don't do that. You just somehow you're driving, and you just wind up at your house, you know, how did that happen? He said because you don't live your life like making cognitive decisions all the time. And he makes the point that you just made which I love how you said that that I've never heard it said like that, that part that a downstream of worship downstream of culture. His point is is that that we historically thought we were primarily thinking beings, Rene Descartes, I think therefore I am and then he says, then in the Reformation, we became primarily believing beings, but he said really, what we are at our core is we are liturgical beings, we are worshipers, we are beings who desire and that spoke to me and and even what you just said was so powerful, because it's like, I think where we can, like in a post Christian culture, the one thing that doesn't go away no matter what, it's not a matter of, if you're going to worship, it's a matter of what or who you're going to worship. Exactly. So that's why this is so powerful. You know, we can address anybody anywhere, because everybody's a worshiper. Yep.
Darrow:Yep. I think it was GK Chesterton said that. If you're not worshiping the living God, you are an idolatry, you're worshipping an idol. And, you know, he makes the point. No one's an atheist. Everybody's an idolater. Yeah, I think that's true.
Scott:You know, and, you go ahead does Zack I'm sorry.
Zach Dasher:John Piper, he said one time that your desires become idolatrous when they terminate on themselves. And I think about that CS Lewis quote, where he talks about desire a lot. And he says that it's not that the Lord finds our desires too strong, it's that he finds them too weak. We are half hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex, because it's like settling for mud pies in the slum, because we can't fathom a holiday by the sea. And I think that's the thing. Like, what what we're trying to accomplish as Kingdom people is that it's not oppressive to be in the kingdom of God. It's not this thing where God says, okay, don't do any of the fun stuff so that you can prove your loyalty to me, and then I'll let you in. That's a very legalistic, like, horrible gospel, right? It really is this idea that there is something transcendently beautiful in the nature of God, and that God wants to awaken and unleash our desires, he doesn't want to tame them, he doesn't want to diminish them at all. And I think anybody that's lived in a life of sin, you know, we deal with a lot of people that have gone through drug addiction, and, you know, prostitution and just unbridled sexual expression. And it's just funny that of none of those folks that I've that I've worked with and dealt with and done life with that said, Man, it was man, it really got better over time. Quite, it's quite the opposite, you know, the further they moved into their drug addiction, then the less sensitive they become, their desires were actually diminished over time, where if you think about a life of somebody who spent 60 years in service to the living God, and they're 80 years old, and maybe their body is not what it once was, but yet God is like that person has still has an awakening of desire. But it's a transcendent desire. And it's a desire for who God is. So to me, that's just like, such a beautiful place to begin with people because I think it's a level we all live, live in, you know what I mean?
Scott:Zack, go ahead. Darrow? Yeah,
Darrow:Go ahead. Scott,
Scott:I've just got several thoughts, I'd like to share just to jump off on what you're saying in terms of beauty. I think Darrow, you are the one that taught me this, saying that"We build cultures in the image of the God that we worship." And so it's just another way of saying that, you know, at the furthest point upstream is kind of worship, you know, the worship of either a God got the living God or an idol. And those that historically have worshipped the living God have built cultures that are beautiful. And just the idea of beauty. I mean, to me, is a rich idea. I'm still trying to get my head around it in many ways. But I think about, for example, Oxford University. It is just one example of many, but the buildings, if you've been to Oxford University in England, the buildings, the architecture, the landscape, it's just incredibly beautiful. And that was born out of the worship of a living God. And it's sustained, you know, over centuries, to the point that people today when they go onto that campus, they're confronted with beauty, and it brings them to God. You know, it's very powerful. But beauty is it, you know, it can show itself, you know, in terms of art, architecture, but I think it also shows itself just in terms of, sometimes when I think of beauty, I think of, oh, you know, just the beauty of mercy and forgiveness. You know, several years ago, there was a horrific shooting in Charleston, South Carolina, to African American church and a white supremacist came in and, you know, just did this horrific shooting during a Bible study and the Christians there, you know, they were filled with the Spirit of God, and they forgave that young man. And you see these kinds of things occasionally in the culture and when you see it, the thing that comes to my mind is beauty. Like there's something just so transcendently beautiful about that ability to forgive. It's not physical, it's not a building or a song, but it's something that's so powerfully beautiful. And it's such an incredible, you know, apologetic or testimony to the living God, this beauty. You know, as you're saying, and your right, Zach, you talked about post modernism and being there in North Carolina and kind of the fountainhead of some of the post modernism in the west and when we went down that road of post modernism or modernity or just atheism, you think about the Soviet Union, for example, and the way it affected the architecture there, you know, the buildings became very utilitarian, very ugly. And so again, you know, we build cultures in the image of the God that we worship and and, you know, this is very, as you said, this is a very, I think, unexplored avenue of kind of biblical worldview apologetics, if you will, because it seems like you're right, historically, we've been focused on kind of what are the right answers? And I, there's nothing wrong with that. We need to have true correct answers. Who is God? What does it mean to be a human being? You know, these are very, very important questions that need truthful answers. But it goes way beyond that, doesn't it? You know, so this whole aspect of beauty I think, is very powerful.
Zach Dasher:Yeah, Brian Ivie, I met this guy. I guess. Last year, we talked about doing a project together. But Brian did a documentary film called"Emanuel" on this very on the Baptist Church that you just mentioned. And it I mean, it's absolutely beautiful. And, Brian, we get to talk. And it's so funny, because we kind of come out the same place. I had never met him. But I was introduced by a guy that, we just wrapped a film called "The Blind," which is, it's the life story of Philip and Kay Robertson, and kind of their journey out of addiction and poverty. And just, it's a, it's a rough film, it's going to be rough. It's going to be such a beautiful redemption story. But the director connected me with Brian on another project, we were talking and I'd already seen the film, but he's he is on the same page that we're on with a lot of this stuff. And it was beautiful, to see his work. And but you're right, I think I think what what's interesting though, is when Darrow had mentioned the idea of worship being downstream of culture, I think the reason why that may be hard for some of us to grasp of what that really means is because we have a very narrow view of worship. And you kind of alluded to it and what you just said, we tend to equate worship with with a song. And maybe it's our experiential worship and in church on Sunday morning, or at a conference or but it's limited. And, and we may think, man, it just doesn't seem very fulfilling, to sing all the time, you know, whatever. But I think if we take into account, you know, Paul's definition of worship and Romans chapter one way says that it's the offer, your living your bodies as living sacrifices. And this is your your act of worship holy and pleasing to God. I think it's somewhere in that definition, that points us then into who the Triune God is, and we start to see a God whose exist is very existence is outflow, and love and overflow. You know, it's, you start to see that, I mean, even when we get into the discussion about gender and masculinity and concepts like submission and power, and like, whoa. We have a hard time even seeing the word submission is something beautiful. Because we don't understand who God is. We don't see a son who is subordinate to his father. We don't understand how that can be beautiful. You know, we don't understand that. And we don't understand how you know, when Jesus says, the first shall be last. We think that means if I go get in the back of the line, then the teacher is going to notice my humility, and then she's going to usher me to the front of the line where all the smucks come look at me and I can, you know, laugh at him, as I'm making my way to the front line, we don't understand what Jesus is saying, no the best place to be, is in the back of the line, the place of sacrifice, the place of humility, the place of love, the place of outpouring and overflow. So I think that's why we have a hard time with some of these concepts, you know.
Darrow:Let me back up a minute to something that I heard you say, Zack, and you can correct me if I'm wrong. I thought I heard you say that I had said that, worship is downstream from culture. What I meant to say, if I didn't, was that worship is upstream from culture.
Zach Dasher:I think that is what you said. I think I misquoted.
Darrow:Cult is worship. I mean, that's what, it's the worship of God. And if you worship the living God, if the cult is upstream from culture, then the culture is a reflection of the God that you worship. And we have reduced worship today to simply the singing aspect on a Sunday morning. And sometimes we've reduced that to endless repetition of choruses, which in my mind is much more like a Hindu mantra than it is worship. But we have actually reduced worship to simply singing choruses on Sunday morning, as opposed to the worship of the living God. I'll bring something else in here and we'll just see where this goes. In looking at Genesis chapter two, where it says that God put Adam in the garden to work it and care for it. The word work there is very interesting. It's the Hebrew word, "Abodah". And half the time you find this word, it's translated "work," "work the garden." But the other half of the time you find the word translated "worship." So when we were put in the garden, to be vice regents, to take care of what God had given us. Our work is an act of worship. It's a worship of the living God. And we're to take what God has given us, and to do something with it, that glorifies God. Our work is to glorify God, it's not just for a paycheck. Yeah, there's this comprehensive thing here of work, worship. Worship is upstream from culture. Culture is derived from worship, culture is creative, we're to be creative, and the culture that we create is to bring glory to God.
Scott:Yeah, Darrow, I really love that I think the church is at its best when you know, it doesn't separate work and worship. And, you know, I think of times, like for example, after the Reformation, and there was such a tight alignment between those ideas, you know, the reformers, they, they were the ones that came up with this Latin phrase, that we use a lot"Coram Deo" which means before the face of God and that meant there was no separation between the work that they did and their worship, they worked unto the Lord, you know, and because God is beautiful, that beauty then reflects in the work that we do. And you saw that, in the way that they cultivated the land, the fields themselves, there was a beauty to it, there was a cemetery and it just, you know, there was there was a major change. So I think the church is at its best, it's most powerful in the sense that it's really a witnessing the reality of God when it when there is no separation between work and worship, and we broadened our understanding of worship out. You know, I, I wanted to go back to something to Zach, you said earlier about... You were talking about a humility and submission as aspects of beauty and just the power of that. And it brought to my mind, something that has really stuck with me over the last few years, it was a video clip. I'm sure you've seen. I know, the team here has seen it. And it was a an episode that happened at Yale University. We're going back probably five or six years. But it was a group of students that were kind of confronting a professor named Christakis in the courtyard or the, you know, be somewhere on the campus there. And what somebody filmed it on their phone and posted it, and they were just screaming and yelling at him and just treating him in the most despicable way, you know, and he was trying to be gracious, and he was trying to listen to them and have a discussion with them, but they didn't want to discuss anything with him really, they just wanted him to be shamed and to be kind of vilified. I think their original reason for it had something to do with Halloween costumes, I mean, something absolutely ridiculous. But I remember when I saw that what struck me was, I was very alarmed because these are students to you know, this is their professor and it's just the opposite of humility and submission like we would think that you should have. And I thought when I saw that it was very unnerving, because I thought, if this is where the society is, if this is where the culture is going, obviously, these are students at Yale, they're going to be leaders in our society, the society is going to fall apart. And just the opposite of what you were saying this submission, this humility, it builds things, it builds families, it builds communities and cultures, strong ones, we need it and ones that are beautiful. Whereas this new thing that's coming on, that's rooted in idolatry and atheism. It tears things apart. And I'm very concerned because, you know, it's that thing's growing in the culture, and it's ugly. It's not beautiful. It's destructive. It's not creative. It's not creating anything. It's just tearing things down. What are your thoughts or reactions to some of that? Yeah.
Zach Dasher:Yeah, I think that's, I agree with you. And I think that it's, I wouldn't say it's just based on atheism, though. I mean, you know, I live in a city that there's not a lot of atheist in the city I live in, that's not really a thing that we deal with. It's a very spiritual city, Nasheville is, I think Portland would probably be the same way and Austin, Texas, and more of these more New Age vibes. But what it really is, I mean, it's, I guess, it's practical atheism, but it's basically like, it's the kingdom without the kings. They want the kingdom without the king. And so you want the spiritual things, but you don't want the king and the submission part and all that. So it ends up being like he said, a some form of utilitarianism. Well, we had an interesting conversation at night about this with our neighbors, and we were talking and they are I don't know about atheist, but maybe more agnostic. And we had a really robust discussion about this. And when they kept moving to the discussion to be about God, they spoke about the possibility of God in the utilitarian sense. And as I was like no no, I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying, I'm saying what if he's personal? And one of the guys was like, well, that goes against everything you're saying, because them he would be subjective. I said, No, I don't mean personal for me. I mean, like, he's a person, he has like a center of consciousness. In fact, he has three centers of consciousness. And I was trying to explain to them the inner life of God, and anytime I get into exploring or contemplating who is God, I mean, I do see these concepts emerge, like humility, and just unadulterated love and and I try to fathom what is the relationship? What would a relationship look like? If not only that did not occur, but it was an ontological impossibility for there to be any manipulation. These parties could not manipulate each other in this relationship. These parties could not abuse one another, position against it, not just that it didn't just happen. It was an ontological impossibility in their very nature of who they were, that was not possible. All that they could do is love one another. And that the love between these two, this father and son, it was so real, that it was an actual person called the Holy Spirit. And I'm like, and when you start to understand like who God is, and the humility that flows out of the Godhead, the fact that there was this creator of the cosmos, that created, I mean, you saw the new telescope images that came out. And we, I mean, as big as we think the universe is, no matter what we discover, we always come back with the same thing. It's bigger, you know, it's like, it's bigger than you thought. And whatever you think it is bigger than that. God speaks that into existence, and that God is so humble that he comes down and condescends and becomes a human, he puts himself in a body and allows his creation to not just get their hands on him, but to to kill him. And you start thinking about what kind of like, what is... Even again, the Gospel itself, you see a beauty that is, I mean, Darrow I don't want to call this, transcendent. I don't know how to, like, get my mind around this. And I think that that's when I talk about humility. It's ultimately modeled out of who is this God that would do such a thing? I mean, it's absurd, right? I mean, from our standard, it's absurd.
Scott:It's so powerful. And yeah, I've often thought the most beautiful thing you can witness is the cross because of exactly what you said, this Philippians chapter two kind of, you know, this God who's all powerful, you know, who's the king of kings. Who has all authority. You know, willingly putting on human form and serving us. Serving us, that's just unbelievable, to the point of death on a cross. And there's a beauty in that that is, as you said, transcended. There is nothing like it. And when we see that reflected in human relationships, we see the same thing. It's like there's a power. There's a beauty there. So yeah, it's, it's incredible. Yeah.
Darrow:Zach, did you see some of the first photos from the Webb Telescope?
Zach Dasher:Yes, it was so powerful.
Darrow:So powerful, so stunning. And to realize there's no human eye that had ever seen that before? I mean, it's further out than human beings have ever looked before. And you get all the way out to where that was, and the incredible beauty. But God was outside of that. Yeah. And that's what we're talking about. I mean, the depth to fathom his beauty, His goodness, His fidelity. It's beyond anything that we can imagine. And those images from the new telescope, just, they were astonishing. But to think that God is beyond all of that, in his beauty, and he has created this.
Zach Dasher:Yeah. My friend, and colleague, we're actually working on a podcast that we're going to be releasing, it's going to be 10 episodes, more like a series thing that's going to come out, hopefully, we're writing it now and kind of writing the episodes out and doing the research. But we were meeting the other day. And he had this incredible analogy that we'll use in our podcasts. And I love that, but we were talking about this idea of beauty and transcendence. And he said, if I told you, you could live forever. Like if I had the ability to grant you eternal life. But here's the catch, you have to live in a 10 by 10 room forever. Like, you can never leave that room. Would you be interested? Of course everyone's gonna say no, right? No one would, that would be hell, right? To live in a confined space. You know, like for eternity of the four walls and ceiling and a floor? That's it? Well, you would get bored very, very rapidly, right? I mean, within five seconds, I've exhausted the entire room. I know everything that's here. I've seen it. I've witnessed it. I'm trying to move on. Or he said, What have you expanded that out until maybe an 1800 square foot house? But you can live in this house forever but you can never leave the house? Again, the answer we would no because eventually, it's not gonna take too long. I'm gonna get stir crazy, I wouldn't want I would want to live that way. And then if you expand what if it was a 10,000 square foot mansion. And here's the deal, no matter what number, however big your universe is that you inhabit. If you're going to live there for eternity, at some point, you're going to exhaust every single minut detail of that place, and you're going to be done with it, and you're going to wish you were dead, because you're gonna be bored out of your mind. And his point is, is that the reason why heaven is heaven is not because it's eternal life. It's that it's eternal life with a God, whose beauty can never be exhausted. You you will, we would never get to the end of God's beauty and say Oh, wow, that was it. Well, that was pretty awesome. Now wer are at the end of it, what, what's next? We're never going to say what's next on the other side of heaven, or this earth? We're not going to. And I think that's what Jesus is getting at in John
17:3, when he defines eternal life, how does he define it? He says, This is eternal life. To know the one true God, that's Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and Jesus Christ, the incarnation of that God, His Son whom He sent, it's to know the living God is to intimately know and to dwell in the presence of the Lord. You want to know what heaven is heaven is dwelling in His presence. I think that's why these things all tie very deeply together. And it's funny because you know what, they're all connected around? God's beauty? I think it's all connected around the word "intimacy." And I think that's where humans right now why I think we live in a time and space where, man the people are primed for the gospel to flourish because that is the what the culture has attacked over the last three years, is the idea of intimacy and connection. We've been isolated through COVID restrictions, we've been in our homes, we masks, we can't even see each other's facial expressions. We've been divided based on our racialized identities, our sexual identities, our gender, or whatever, whatever, whatever, whatever. And everybody is more isolated than they've ever been. One author says we're drowning in data yet thirsting for meaning. Like we're at this place and culture, I think post Christian culture is poised to be seen a revival because I think that we are hungering for intimacy that only we could find in the living God.
Scott:Wow, I sure hope. That's beautiful. Zach, I hope you're right. And I kind of get the same sense. I think this post Christian culture is, you know, what we're seeing in it right now. There's is a lot of crisis and a lot of brokenness. So it is a huge opportunity for those of us who follow Jesus Christ to be light and truth in a way that we've never been in a dark place. And so I really, I really hope that that's the case, Darrow, you're gonna say something I cut you out there.
Darrow:Yeah, I was just reflecting on what you were saying, Zach, about the place of residing. It's not eternity, it's eternity in the presence of the one who is beautiful. And we've probably all read CS Lewis's, I think it's "The Great Divorce," where a busload of people come to the gates of Heaven, to meet outside the gates of heaven with friends from Earth. And the friends from Earth, try to talk them into going to heaven, because of how incredible Heaven is. And each one of the people decides at the end, not to go to heaven, but to go back on the bus. And if you remember the last of the scene, where they're on the bus, and the bus is going down the road, and the bus goes into a crack in the road, and it gets smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller. And finally it ends up in hell. And Lewis is he's saying two things. One, the choice. God's choice is that we all join Him in heaven. And we can choose his choice, or we can choose to deny God and have our choice. Yeah. And when you're in hell, you are in this tiny, tiny, tiny place, without that intimacy with God.
Zach Dasher:Yeah, yeah. I remember the way he describes the blades of grass, and they could see its beauty on like a superficial level, but they couldn't experience it. So it's like, or the water was like, hard as a rock. And I think though, one of the lines, I think it came from that book, he says that there are two kinds of people in this world, those who say to God, "Thy will be done." And then those to whom God says,"Thy will be done."
Darrow:Thy will be done.
Zach Dasher:But that's biblical, Darrow. I mean, you think about how Paul defines hell. And I think it's either first or second Thessalonians. I always get these mixed up. But he says that hell, he said, when God comes back, he's going to punish those who do not know Him, and who do not obey his gospel with everlasting destruction. And it says this, it describes what that is shut out from the presence of the Lord on the day he comes to be marveled at among the saints. So you have this picture, on one side of the saints are going to be marveling at the glory of the Lord, they're going to be basking in his beauty, his intimate connection with God and His beauty and that you're get to participate in the divine glory, because he's grafted you in and paid for that by the blood of Jesus. And then the others that who God said, Thy will be done to them, they're going to be shut off from his presence. And I think Romans speaks to this too, in Romans chapter one, think about how Paul defines the wrath of God. You know, I used to hear this sermon preached it in the church I grew up in was that God was mad at all of the sexually immoral and all that, he's angry at them and He's poured out His wrath. But if you read Romans one, the wrath of God is being left to yourself, the wrath of God is being turned over to do what ought not to be done. It's God saying, Okay, I'm going to give you over to yourself. That's the wrath of God is when he removes his presence, then we move into a state of hell. And it ends up looking like a like a Mad Max film or something where everybody's out for themselves. And that's why CS Lewis says that same book that you mentioned, "The Great Divorce," he says that the Christians will look back at all the moments in their life that they thought were hell. And they'll realize they were living in heaven the entire time. And those who are in hell will look back at all the things that they thought were heaven. And they'll realize that they were in hell the entire time. And I think that's what's at stake here.
Darrow:And how do we take this understanding? And this goes back to the question we started with of culture today where our culture is, and how do we live out this reflection of the beauty of who God is before a culture that is longing for beauty and it's creating such ugliness. Such... what's the word? Hideousness? How can we live before this culture in a way that people say, Ah, this is the beauty that I've been longing for? This is the kingdom. I want to be true.
Scott:Well, I think Zach answers that in one way, Zach, I love what you said about intimacy, and just, you know, just deep relationships. I think you're right, people are hungry for that right now. And, you know, our worldview gives us a basis for that, because of God's love for us. And because of that, you know, we can love one another in the same way and have that kind of intimacy. And I think there is a incredible beauty in that. And it's very appealing and attractive right now to people in the culture. So I love what you say it said about that. Yeah. Well.
Zach Dasher:I was thinking, when you asked that question yet, two things popped into my mind, because it's two questions. One, like how do we do it? Like the I hate to use this term loosely bashing pragmatism? But how do we do it pragmatically? How do we, how do we live it out? And then and then I think too, the other question is is like, more like me personally? Like, how does that happen for me? And, you know, I think that renewable starts in the heart of an individual person. So I think if—I may have seen it seen this in your work, matter of fact, somebody did this picture it was like a circle the entire world as like, you're gonna change the globe, well, then you need to change a nation inside the globe. And if you change that nation, you got to change, you know, states and cities and neighborhoods and families, a bit. It all goes back down to to a person that experiences individual renewal and revival, which is great news for me, because the only person I can really have any real autonomy over my decisions is myself. And so what do I do? I think it's an understanding one that going back to the what we said at the beginning, what does it mean to be human is we're primarily, we were made to worship. I mean, that's it. I mean, like, what were you made for? You are made to worship the Triune God. The chief in the man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever. You know, and I think that that, two, it's not a matter of if you're going to worship, it's a matter of what are who you're going to worship. You're going to worship somebody, I think was Bob Dylan that said, you gotta serve somebody, right? You're going to choose. Number three, is that you're going to worship or love or desire, whatever you consume, this is where it gets down to, okay, what do I do, right? I'm going to worship the things that I behold you love what you behold, whatever I'm consuming the most. That's where your treasure is, that is where your heart will be. to sin. All sin really is is just misdirected worship. Well, faith, by contrast, is rightly directed worship. Which brings us the truth number four, which is this, you will become what you worship. So you're going to become what you worship. And if I worship what I consume, then the conclusion is, is it's the old saying, you are what you eat, right? I'm going to become what I eat. So if you want to, if you really want to say what do we do? I think we as Christians and believers, we need to start eating the right things. We need to start consuming who God is. Consuming god it's what's it's what's a symbolized in the Eucharist and the Lord's table. We partake in that every Sunday at our church, and it's my favorite time. Because it's a visual expression of us consuming this, this infinitely glorious God, but we consume the things of God and then our desires begin to be transformed. And then I think the world around us sees that. And there's just no faking it. Right? I mean, if you ever see someone that's filled with the Holy Spirit, and they live a spirit filled life, you just see it, you just sense it, it's just like it's there. And so it's like, well explain to me what I don't have to explain to you say it to, you know, it's different. It's awesome. It's weird, but it's awesome. And it's attractive. And I don't know why it's attractive because they don't have any money maybe or they don't have the things that I think would make them happy. But yet there's something there and it doesn't make any sense, but it's attractive. So I think that's it. I think it's just dialing back down to our own personal renewal and getting on our face before a living God and Zach Dasher, repenting for sin and living out a repentant life.
Scott:So good, Zach. Yeah, well.
Shawn Carson:You know talk a lot about, you know, the, one of the problems in the churches, the sacred/secular divide, and just listening to you guys, you know, talk a little bit, it's like, the church bought the lie that the beauty is inside the church, and the culture is bought the lie that the beauty is outside the church. So you know, we'll just stay in the church and make it beautiful. And if you want to come and experience it, come and experience it with us, but we don't carry that beauty out into the world, you know, and then outside the church, we're just looking for everything, we're kicking every rock and looking under it and seeing is there beauty here? Is there something that will bring kind of intimacy and fulfillment? And I just think, you know, revival is the bringing back something that died back to life. Right? And, yeah, I think just acknowledging that the church is not promoting the gospel of the kingdom in a way that is attractive, that is beautiful to the world that we live in, not even to the church, you know. I've been in church my whole life and I've struggled with finding the beauty that is talked about in God's Word in the expression of the kingdom. I mean, not that I haven't seen it, I have seen it, but it's more something we share inside rather than something that we carry out into the world and that we, then we're confused and critical of the world that we live in thinking, Well, why don't they get it? And I think, Well, why don't they get it yet? Why aren't we carrying it? You know, and I think that, you know, one of the things that we do we talk about is we want to help equip the church to be the church. And if beauty is such a integral part of an expression of the kingdom, how does God's people embrace it, and be embraced by it, and then carry that into the world? You know.
Zach Dasher:That's, I would, I would go a step further and say that I think the vast majority of the church probably has not, they haven't preached the gospel, that kingdom at all, they may have preached the gospel of a personal justification. But I grew up in the church that I grew up in the gospel was basically, God's saving me from the penalty of sin. And then I get to grind out 80 years of a boring life, and then I get to go to heaven, and then I get to live autonomously in heaven. And you know, I'll get straight to gold and all that, but like, even the idea of heaven, I was like, this sounds kind of boring to me. And then I gotta grind out 80 years here, I don't know it, just the whole thing had no power to it. Whereas the gospel of the kingdom is the idea that that the kingdom is here now. I know it's not here in its full fruition. But you know, Jesus said, it's in your midst, it's near John the Baptist said, Repent, for the kingdom of God is near. There's something about the kingdom coming. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done. Where? On earth. Like how? Just like it ist heaven. And that's what Jesus is praying. And I think that that's, especially for men. I know at one point, we were gonna talk about masculinity and and I think this is connected though, because I think that I think true masculinity is an appreciation, and maybe in an infatuation with beauty. And that's why the true men, the men of renown, they have built incredible things, beautiful things, right? And so it's this idea that you want to attract men to the church, well then give them a job to build something. Yeah, that's what we're doing in the church. We're called to build God's kingdom. Now he's doing the ultimate building. I know that. But man what a blessing that God says I can use use you Zach, and look I'm horrible, if it's something tears up in my house, like we call a handyman. I'm not that kind of guy. And I hate it. I'm embarrassed about it. I wish I was a handyman. I'm just not good at it. But you know what? God's equipped me to build other things that are beautiful. Maybe it's a maybe it's a podcast with a with some bearded guys on it that's just random chasing scriptures and weird stories. But somehow it works. That's the thing about God. Like, when God creates he creates X out of nothing. And then he gives us that stuff that he made, he says, Now go make whatever you want for my glory. And there's an infinite possibilities of things that we can make out of the stuff that God gave us. Like, that's beauty. And so I think that's where that we probably missed it, even in the sacred secular divide, what what we've essentially done is we've gotten rid of those infinite possibilities with what we can build for His Kingdom.We said no, you stay in your lane, you stay right here in these four walls of the church building. And you do your thing there. Oh, you want to do Christian music? Well, are you any music? Well, you better do Christian music. Oh, you want to do a film? Well, you better do a Christian film. And there better not be any like, you know, blood or guts in it, because that would be too violent. And like some of these stories are brutal. I mean, I can go through the book of it, I can read Ezekiel chapter 23. And man, there's some very racy language in that chapter. Right? But we're not, but don't talk about that in the church. And so we're limiting people in their creativity and their ability to express beauty in the world. Because we bought into this sacred secular divide, and then we send everybody out else out there to the world. And now you go do your thing out in the world, but make sure you come here on Sunday morning. And man, there's no power in that. That's an impotent faith. That's an impotent gospel. Even from a pragmatic standpoint, or utilitarian, it doesn't work. Like, you know, I mean,
Scott:You're preaching our Gospel now, Zach. I think, in some ways, the key message that God has given the DNA to deliver to the church, you know, around the world is just, we kind of identified the problem being the sacred/secular divide that's got 100 plus year history, and even going much further back than that. And kind of the antidote is this full orbed gospel of the kingdom, you know, and so that that's been a big part of, of what God's put on our heart, our calling.
Darrow:Zach, I love what you said a little while ago, the world wants the kingdom without the king. And it's looking for something. And it's looking for the kingdom. But you can't have the kingdom without the king. And how do we, you said that so beautifully. How do we do that? Clearly?
Zach Dasher:Yeah, that's a great question.I think it goes back to part of it goes back to humility. There's a really good book I read this year, called"The Revolt of the Public." And it's not a Christian book. It's a book about... I don't know how to describe it. It's the guy was a CIA analyst. And he predicted the Arab Spring and a bunch of other things. And he said, when he went in there and first predicted it to the CIA, they laughed him out of the room, and they said, What are they going to beat us up with their laptops, and they literally laughed him out of the room. But everything he predicted came true. And his point in the book is that we occupied this weird place between two eras of time, the industrial revolution in the digital age. And he says, you know, we're in a new time period here where the whole right versus left paradigms don't work, you know, the Democrat versus Republican, conservative versus liberal like that these paradigms don't work anymore. And he said, there's an inherent distrust in authority and leadership. It's not going away any anytime soon, primarily because of the advancement in technology, and that we're just getting information in real time now. But it's interesting to his conclusion of what we need. And you know, what he said what kind of leader we need. He said, we need humble leaders. We need leaders that won't promise you utopia that will say that will say, Hey, this is the direction we're going. But when we figure out we're going the wrong direction, we're going to change course. And I've thought about the implications for the church in that too, because you also see in the church, there's a revolt of the public, against clergy, against establishments, against the Creed's, against history. And some of the deconstruction to be fair, it's probably necessary. I think we've gone way overboard, and in a lot of areas, but but I think that what we need is we need to be humble in our approach, even in the discussion on like sexuality and things. I mean, like, I don't think we need to communicate in caustic ways in ways and I think we need to communicate in ways that that admit our own sin. By not not like yeah, it's like I've been to these conferences where they talk about the verse, you know, if you will repent of your sins, I will forgive your nation and remember your sins no more. I'm thinking yeah, but nations don't repent of sins. Nations are like companies. They're just ideas. People repent of sins, and I'm a person and I'm in a nation. I'm an American, I'm an American. And so if I think if people see, the people that I do life with, if they see me living out a repentant life, not hey, man, back in the day when I was a sinner, you know, I'm talking about like right now like, Man, I preached last week at our church, and I confessed, I said my daughter is 18 years old, she's going to college and look, I have evaluated wasted time. I've evaluated an unholy and unhealthy obsession with success, and things like that. And I gotta tell the church, like, don't make the mistakes I've made. But living in that kind of spirit of repentance before the people that you do live with, I think is, I think it leads us to that place of personal renewal. And then I think when we start to have personal renewal in our own lives, particularly as men and fathers and husbands. Man, there's no way you can tell me if a dad that get on his face and repent for the living God, and his kids see that you can't tell me that that's not going to have profound implications in his family. And if this family repents of their sins, and they continue to live in that spirit of repentance, and experience, the healing power of the Holy Spirit, that's going to permeate the street that they live on. It just is. Their neighbors are going to notice and take this away. What's going on over here? I'm sorry, I'm talking a lot here. But this is passionate about this. Do they see the key? Are you living out the kingdom in front of them? And I think if you are, I don't even have to explain the beauty. I just think they're gonna see it. Now I will explain it because there's going to be time for that. But I do think the biggest thing we can do is live out a kingdom life that's beautiful and repentant. If that makes any sense.
Scott:The one of the questions I'd love to explore with you, Zach, is closely related to what you're talking about right now, I think is the success of Duck Dynasty. You're very closely related your family with with the Duck Dynasty family, Phil Robertson, he's a guy who repented as I recall his testimony in a very powerful way. And you're right, it did the ripples of transformation ran through his family and now have, you know, affected almost everyone in the country in some ways because of that repentance. What do you think Duck Dynasty struck such a chord with so many people at this particular time? I mean, it's a question I've been kind of pondering a lot myself, you know, it just blew up, you know, and it's, you're still involved with it. You got podcasts, and, you know, the folks are still very active. But what what do you think? It's surprising, because you guys are just real folk, you know, real redneck folk from Louisiana. And all of a sudden, you know, people are just paying a ton of attention to you. Why do you think that that happened? I'm shifting gears here a little bit to media.
Zach Dasher:Yeah, no, that's a great question. Well, we've thought about that a lot and talked about it a lot. I think one of the one of the big things, probably one of the most obvious answers is what we were talking about earlier that the sacred/secular divide, that wall, I mean, really Phil just kind of abolish that wall. And really, that's been his life. I mean, before I'd even read any of Schaeffer or any of that kind of thought process. Before I broke into any of that world, when I was a young kid, I remember Phil, when he came to saving faith, he would talk about the church or going to—he would never say I'm going to church, you'll never hear him say that. He would always say I'm going to the building, or I'm going to meet with the brothers. And he lived his life where 95% of the kingdom work that Phil's done has been in his house. And like, that's where the Bible studies are going down. That's where the the prostitutes are hanging out. That's where they're drug addicts are coming into his home. And that's just the life he live. So I think when Duck Dynasty happened, you kind of saw is kind of same thing, right? It wasn't a Christian show. It was just a show about a family. And then they were praying in the first episode, they put the beep sound like they were cursing which they weren't. And so Phil had to like step in and basically say, you know, you're not going to represent us that way or we're going to walk away. And so they walked, they obviously stopped that, but then it was the prayer, right? And it was just like, it was like a simple prayer. I mean, it wasn't Then the third thing is going back to kind of the first point, even like, they weren't like giving any profound explanation Phil particularly and the whole family, they communicate in this way. If you ever liste to Phil preach the gospel. He doesn't on the inner life of the Triune God or the epistemological use a lot of lofty language. And he does that intentionally. But he does use language that roots the gospel in space and time. breakdown in America. They're getting into all that. They're You know, I heard he wanted to do a show. And they were asking just literally praying a prayer and living as a family. And him about his life story. He said, Oh, I'll tell you, I was getting drunk, getting high, getting laid. And he said, until people could come around that and watch it and I think people I ran smack dab into Jesus of Nazareth, who walked on the earth 2000 years ago. And it's like, what he's doing is, he's identified with with kind of a healthy family unit, even if removing it from this from like, he's rooting God in space and they didn't have it. They wanted that. They wanted that kind of time, like, he's a real person. So I just think that that was kind of the ethos of the whole vibe of Phil and the family was intimacy and they wanted that kind of community. And I think this idea that this is real. This is this is not an idea. This is something that's personal. Personal, meaning that that's what the show spoke to us. God is a person.
Scott:What you're saying kind of what was my suspicion or hunch as well, you know that that was my sense. There's, what you see on those shows is you see families that love each other, you see intimacy. And, you know, I think that we were talking about this earlier, there's such a hunger for that right now, you know, that so many people come from such broken relationships and broken families and you know, just to see families that love each other, where there is an intimacy, and they love God, and they're praying. There's something just incredibly appealing to people right now.
Zach Dasher:Well, yeah, let me say this. And I actually after I say this, I have to go because we have speaking of families, I have to take my daughter to college. But let me say this, this is a great way to end kind of what I think what we're talking about, at least, while I'm here. I read this book, I reread this book, actually this week, and it's by a mutual friend of ours, Nancy Pearcey"Love Thy body." And at the end of it, she gives this kind of clarion call to what do we do now, and it's just one paragraph. But to your point about having a family like a community, a communal model for people to look at, is what she says we are to do. This is on the last page of the book, and it's so good that she says in his widely read book "After Virtue," the author writes that as the surrounding society loses its connecting glue, which we could say right now that's happening, right. The most important response is to build local, small scale forms of community, teaching our children and our congregations how to reestablish strong life, giving relationships in a world falling apart, quote, "What matters at this stage, is the construction of local forms of community within which civility and the intellectual and moral life can be sustained through the new Dark Ages, which are already upon us. Our families and our churches must become centers of civilization, that reach out beyond themselves with a model of human community." So I think, you know, going back to Darrow's question, and what Duck Dynasty was a small way that this could happen, but I think that's it. I think we've got to almost kind of like, recalibrate, come back together, this all has to happen on a local level. We got to quit thinking so big and like we're going to take over the world, we're going to get up to take the White House and you take the White House all you want, and that it's much deeper than that. We've got to take back our local communities, and our local churches, and our families, like that's going to take back their families. So from my perspective, that's the how that's the next move for people who are in the kingdom.
Scott:Amen. Man, I so agree with that, Zach, that's so good. Well, listen, we won't keep any longer. You've been so gracious with your time. And this has been incredibly rich, it's gone in ways that I didn't expect when we were beginning just a few minutes ago here. So thank you for sharing incredible wisdom with us. I just want to highlight a couple of things that you said earlier, you're working on a new film called"The Blind." And when is that coming out?
Zach Dasher:We hope that it comes out and what's going to come out either in the spring of 2023, or September of 2023. So we'll have a theatrical release. And then you'll be able to get it after the after the theatrical run anywhere you get your media app, Apple, iTunes, Amazon, wherever.
Scott:Wow. Well, just we look forward to seeing that and thank you for your work on that as well as the Unashamed podcast and all the other podcasts that you're helping to produce. And this is another thing maybe we come back on we can talk about it is just the role of new media. It seems like a very powerful force in the culture right now. So anyways, thanks for your pioneering work in that and just for your time with us today, so God bless you and your work and your family and we just will pray for you as you go for your time as your daughter's going off to college. Right?
Zach Dasher:She is, yeah, so thank you guys for that. And Darrow. I'm gonna look forward to, I'll give Luke my address. And I'd love to I'd love to read the book that you're coming out with. That's exciting.
Darrow:Great. No, it's been good being with you today, Zach, just wonderful conversation. And I'm just filled to the brim with insights from what you've shared in our discussion. Well, we'll get you the book when the book comes out.
Scott:We'll get to that book. Yeah, we're excited to have it coming out here in just a couple of months. All right. Well, listen, God bless you. Take care. You too.
Zach Dasher:Bye, guys. Bye bye.
Luke:Thank you for listening to this episode of Ideas Have Consequences brought to you by the Disciple Nations Alliance. To learn more about our ministry. You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, or on our website which is disciplenations.org.
