Ideas Have Consequences

Reflections on the Overturn of Roe

June 29, 2022 Disciple Nations Alliance Season 1 Episode 29
Ideas Have Consequences
Reflections on the Overturn of Roe
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Join us as we reflect on the overruling of the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision and celebrate the restoration of the rule of law in the United States, in this area. For the past 50 years, the legality of abortion gave many in popular culture the misconception that abortion was acceptable. Now, while Roe v. Wade may be overturned, the worldview of abortion activists still exists and even thrive in today's current culture. These lies threaten not only the lives of unborn children but reject the premise that our country was founded on: that all were created equal and are entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It's time to continue the important work of helping people embrace a culture of life so they come to see abortion as unthinkable.

For more on the worldviews behind pro-life and pro-choice, listen to our "No Life = No Human Rights" podcast episode with special guest pro-life activist Sami Parker.

Website: Disciple Nations Alliance 

Scott:

This is the greatest justice issue in our country today. And it's not even close in my view. Again, let me just say that because of Roe v Wade 63 million lives have been lost. Nothing comes close in terms of a justice issue.

Luke:

As Christians, our mission is to spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. But our mission also includes transforming the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected the second part of her mission, and today, Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.

Scott:

Hello, and welcome to Ideas Have Consequences, the podcast of the Disciple Nations Alliance. My name is Scott Allen, president of the Disciple Nations Alliance. And I am here with my dear friends and co workers, once again, Darrow Miller, Dwight Vogt, Shawn Carson, Tim Williams, and Luke Allen, we have a full group here today. And if I sound a little bit more upbeat than I have in the past, it's because today is Monday, the 27th of June. And it's the Monday following a very historic Friday. Friday morning, I woke up as the team did, and all of the United States in the world did to discover that our Supreme Court had issued its ruling. And, you know, in the Dobbs case, that effectively overturned a previous case, the 1973 Roe vs. Wade case. And for those of you who don't know, that was the Supreme Court case in the United States that essentially legalized abortion, said that abortion is constitutionally enshrined right up to the point of birth. It was one of the, in my view, the gravest injustices that has ever been committed in our country because it had led to kind of the license, or opened the door to the extinguishing the lives of some 63 million unborn children. 63 million. It's hard to get your head around the scope of this injustice. And essentially, on Friday, the Supreme Court went back. And it I think, the key line from majority opinion that was written by Chief Justice Samuel Alito, a key line was was this, he wrote "the Constitution of the United States does not confer a right to abortion. Roe vs. Wade is overruled. And the authority to regulate abortion is returned to the people and to their elected representatives." So incredibly historic vote, a decision. So what I'd like to do is we just want to—I'd love to get the thoughts and reactions of the team to this historic event. How did you respond? What's going through your head? Just a few thoughts as I get started on this. First of all, I would say, I never really thought I would live to see this overturned. It was always so grievous to me. It was such a burden on my heart, as I know it was to you guys as well, because, obviously, so many lives had been lost. Like, it's just, nothing comes close in our history to the number of lives lost because of this ruling, as a result of this ruling. And it's in direct violation of our founding creed, in the Declaration of Independence. And I really think in some ways, this is the foundation of the entire nation of the United States. We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, and are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable—that is God given rights—that among these are the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I feel like that's the creed of the country. Abortion was a direct violation of that just in the same way that slavery was. Slavery was a direct violation of that creed because it took away the inalienable rights of liberty, of freedom, for all of those millions of African Americans who were enslaved. And in the same way Roe was a direct violation of our founding creed because it said essentially, it lied. And it said the Constitution allows for the extinguishing of human life, if it's inconvenient. And that was so grievous to me, as I know, it was to you guys. I just felt like anytime there is a law or ruling that's in direct violation to our founding principles, you either have to get rid of the founding creed, or you have to get rid of the thing that's in violation of the founding creed, they can't both go together. And in the case of slavery, by God's grace, thanks be to God, we made the right decision and we abolished slavery. I didn't think I would live to see the day where, in my lifetime, this would happen with this horrific ruling in Roe v. Wade, where we would also, through the Supreme Court, would make the decision to side with our founding creed on the issue of life. And so anyways, thrilled. Thrilled. And just thankful, deeply thankful to God for His mercy. And obviously many, many people that have fought for years. Darrow, I think of you, and all the work that you've done in particular, to fight for life over the course of your life and ministry, and all of us. Dwight, and many people have been deeply involved in the pro life movement on our team, and around the country. So, so grateful. Just want to open it up to to hearing your thoughts and reactions, wide open, whatever you want to say. I'd love to hear it. Let's just share with the folks that are listening today kind of how we responded, and what thoughts we have. Maybe even questions we have.

Darrow:

We're celebrating the overthrow of Roe. And that is something to celebrate. But it's not only the restoration, the overthrow of Roe, it is a restoration of the rule of law. And the Roe decision was a revolution against the rule of law. Because our Constitution has no place in it for abortion. So there is no place in the Constitution to connect the thought of abortion and develop these whole abortion policies. So there was a revolt against constitutional authority in the Roe vs. Wade decision. And so yes, Roe has been defeated and part of this means a return to the concept of the rule of law. Another thing that is pointing to is a return to the concept of a culture of life. Because abortion is born out of a culture of death. We don't normally think of it on a cultural level. We think of it on a policy level and a programmatic level. I mean, people who are for abortion, carry metal coathangers around and saying if we get rid of Roe vs. Wade, we're going back to the coat hangers. I would say that people who are for Roe vs. Wade be nationalized are not pro-choice. They are pro-abortion, and they're functioning out of a culture of death. So this overturning of Roe versus Wade is creating a space for the nation to return to a culture of life. As Scott said when he began discussing the Declaration of Independence and our Constitution, this nation was founded in a Judeo Christian worldview. God exists. He is the giver of life. Our declaration was rooted in the existence of God and the existence of a moral universe, in the existence of the dignity of life. And when you hear people today responding to this decision, they're really speaking against the Constitution. They're speaking against the rule of law. Because they want to get back to a point where you can have choice without responsibility. And you can choose death, the death of babies, there's a right to choose to kill babies in the same way, there was a right in a previous generation to own slaves and declare them less than human beings. This concept, I think we need to go deeper. This is really born out of Darwinian evolution. We are all taught Darwinian evolution in school. We're taught that this is reality. This is science. It is reality. But we're not taught that there is a direct relationship between evolution and racism. But evolution... part of evolution is the evolution of human beings. And you're moving from a lower form, from a monkey, to something that's pre-human, to something that is standing upright now. And we've all seen the charts, growing up in school of the charts of going from the lizard, to the monkey, to the almost human, to an upright animal. And at the end, you have a guy with a beard, looking like a human being. This is evolutionary theory of human development. There's a relationship between Darwin's theory and racism. We saw this in Hitler's Germany where there was a perfect species. That perfect species were white people with blond hair and blue eyes, sort of the Nordic race. Everything else was inferior. Evolution was a slow process to get man to this point. Now, we realize that we need to help evolution along. We need to speed up the evolutionary process by getting rid of the lower forms of human life. And that's what Hitler did in the eugenics movement. At the same time, this was developing in Germany, it was developing in the United States. And there was a woman named Margaret Sanger, who was leading the eugenics movement in the United States. And the Nazis actually looked at Margaret Sanger and what she was doing, she was the pioneer. They look to her as the hero of the eugenics movement. And it was out of the eugenics movement, that the United States came this birth control league to allow white people with blue eyes and blond hair to propagate more. And for people with dark skin, or people who were handicapped or mentally slow, they should be culled out of the society so the race can be perfected. And Margaret Sanger talked about people of color being weeds in the garden, and you have to pull the weeds out of the garden for the garden to thrive. And her movement became Planned Parenthood, the largest provider of abortion in the United States and possibly in the world. And out of this evolutionary theory, Darwinism, racism, came this Roe vs. Wade decision. So we can celebrate turning back Roe vs. Wade but this isn't the end of a battle. It's the beginning of a battle. Because we need to restore the culture to a culture of life and not a culture of death. And up until this point has been the culture of death that has moved this whole process along. And now we have a moment in time to celebrate, but not to celebrate the end of something. But to take a deep breath and say now the heavy lifting has to occur. Because if we don't deal with this on a cultural level, we will be right back to pre Roe vs. Wade.

Luke:

Hi, friends, thanks again for joining us. Abortionists is most horrific injustice in the United States today. But it's not just here. As we all know, it is a global tragedy as well. In this episode, we are mainly covering our reactions to the monumentous overruling of Roe vs. Wade, and the history of Roe as well as what's coming next. But if you'd like more of an overview look at abortion and what the Bible says about this issue, aake sure to go back and listen to episode 21, "No Life = No Human Rights" with pro-life activist Sami Parker. In that episode, we cover the core ideas behind this issue and some of the most common debate topics and give a theology of the sanctity of human life. If you know someone who wants to learn more about abortion and what the Bible says about it, please share that episode with them. And as always, it really helps us if you leave a rating and review on Apple podcast or wherever you're listening.

Dwight:

Scott, you asked for reactions. Mine was—it builds on, Darrow, what you just said—my first reaction was just a sense of a veil being opened up, a veil being torn. Clarity coming through. Because I've always felt like, and I was reminded of that this weekend, a friend and I were talking about something he goes, "Well it's legal. So it must be good." And we were talking about different forms of marijuana and their benefits and you know, buying it for different stuff and he goes, "Well, it's legal, it's got to be good." And I'm thinking that was one of the effects of law. Widow burning was legal in India at one point. So it must be good. Human sacrifice was legal all through the Americas, back in the days of Cortes. That was good. So when something is legal, well, it has this cloak of goodness or okayness about it. And I'm thinking so, it's now illegal. So wow, now we can question—not that we couldn't before—but now society has to question it. And by taking it back to the states, you have to talk about it again. And I'm thinking, that felt like a breakthrough. And so I was thrilled.

Shawn Carson:

Yeah, I think about the idea of the kingdom of God on planet Earth breaking through. And to me, it was just kind of a reflection of that. Of a, kind of what you've said Dwight, of breaking through or a tearing of something that allows something else to come through. And as a believer, a follower of Christ, you want life. You want to see life celebrated. You want to see life spread. You want to see live nourished, and an abortion doesn't do that. We know from history now, of 50 years, that it may be a woman's right to do that, but it doesn't produce life for her, it actually destroys her. And there are countless stories of women who have had abortions, who now they struggle with life. Life is less meaningful. There's regret, there's all sorts of things that go along with that. And I just think, seeing it overturned, is like it's promoting something that the kingdom of God represents. And I always find it fascinating because God tells us what's good and right and true for us. And then we like to do things our own way. And we think that we're producing life through doing things our own way. But yet that it seldom does produce life for us. Doing things my way doesn't always produce the results that I think that it should. And I think this is a moment historically for a whole nation and potentially for the world to look at and say, "Now, does doing things our way produce the kind of results that are really good, or is there a higher way?" as you mentioned, Darrow, "That produces results that are truly life giving for everyone." And to me, I think that's a juxtaposition that I think is brought to the surface and I think we have to wrestle with that.

Darrow:

You use the phrase, Shawn, the right to an abortion. And I think that is where our culture is today. We have accepted that a woman has a right to have an abortion. It's just part of our language. It's part of Roe vs. Wade. It's part of the air we breathe. But none of us would say whites had a right to enslave blacks. Who would say? Not today. But at a period of time? Well, they had the right to enslave blacks. We know that that was the moral evil. But at the time, it wasn't considered a moral evil by the nation.Bby some people it was, some people it wasn't. And so yes, there's a window here that's wonderful and it's to be celebrated. But just to use, continue to use the phrase a woman has a right to abortion is showing how insidious this lie is. Does any woman have a right to abortion? And I realized in my raising this on this podcast, somebody could cancel the podcast. How can you be questioning this right? And though the law has been overturned, there's still a moral imperative. And the child is still a child made in the image of God. And we don't have a right to do evil. And abortion is an evil. As much as the gas chambers in Germany were evil. As much as slavery was evil. But it's even hard to call these things evil because they have been so embedded in a culture.

Shawn Carson:

Well, that's progressivism, right? More autonomy, more personal freedom. That's what we generally call progressivism. Now, people are saying that now we're going backwards in time rather than forward in time, because now you're limiting my freedoms. Is that what's happening?

Darrow:

What is freedom? It's not licensed to do wrong. But in America today, we think of freedom as the license to do whatever we want, including the license to do wrong, because there is no moral framework. Now, with this overturning of Roe vs. Wade it takes us back and points back to, there is a moral framework. There are, if we can see it, natural laws built into the universe. And we are to be a people who live by the rule of law, and not by the rule of man. Maybe I've gone too deep in this, to get started, but I think this is the level we need to go to if we want to take the next step, and maybe we just need to celebrate the step that was taken last Friday. It's worthy of celebration.

Scott:

Now, I think, Darrow and Shawn, the slavery analogy is really helpful to me, because it's as serious as that, if not more serious. Slavery is the taking away of freedom. Abortion is the taking away of life. And Darrow, I think, as you have said, life is the most fundamental of the human rights. Without that right respected, there are no other human rights, including the right to freedom. So this is a very deep, deep human right. And it's a God given right. I think for me, the thing that's hopeful about slavery, though, is that you're right, Darrow, nobody argues morally that slavery is okay today. I mean, I guess I will say that there's a lot of slavery in the world today. There's actually more slavery in the world today than there was during the days of U.S. chattel slavery in the 1800s. But people don't defend it. Nobody morally is out there defending slavery today. It's become morally indefensible, and I think this is the goal for abortion. It has to be. And we have to fight to make it morally, to make it what it is, which is morally indefensible. Nobody has a right to take somebody else's life. You talked about freedom and a secular or—Shawn, you use the word progressive—I prefer just the word secular or atheistic, because it's really a worldview that that says man is at the center, there is no God. I'm the center. I make the decisions. The universe bends to MY will, right? This is the idea. And the idea of freedom in that worldview is, I get to do whatever I want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, right? Now this, "as long as it doesn't hurt anyone" never works its way out, right? Because it ends up,"as long as whoever I'm hurting doesn't have a voice in the matter." And that's essentially what abortion was, that unborn child never had a voice. They were the silent party to this, because they were unborn. They were the weakest, the most vulnerable person in this whole equation. It did hurt them, it destroyed them. But that was still viewed as freedom. But this is not in any way what biblical freedom is, right? As Darrow rightly said, biblical freedom is not the freedom to do whatever you want. You cannot sustain freedom if you think that's what freedom is. You will quickly lose it. If everyone does whatever they want, including murder, you're gonna end up with chaos. So biblically, freedom requires self government, self control, and moral virtue. Those are essential aspects to any kind of free society or free life, for that matter. And so we have to make that case as well.

Luke:

You guys were just talking about the moral universe there, you were just talking about how we live in a moral universe. And Shawn, you're talking about how this is a reflection. This ruling is a reflection of the the influence of the kingdom of God on earth. And I just think it's so encouraging to see that played out in my country. And we live in a sinful world that's affected by sin. And when you see people, even non-Christians recognize that life is sacred, and recognize God's goodness and God's truth. And it moves them so far to even act on that, and even in a really brave way, and put themselves at risk and stand up for truth and for life. It's so encouraging to see that and that God really is at play, at work in our world even in the lives and hearts of the unbeliever. And for that reason, we have so much to be grateful for right now. So much to celebrate. It's such a time of celebration, I think of

Ecclesiastes 3:

4 that says,"There's a time to dance and a time to weep and a time to mourn," and this is the time to celebrate. And before we jump into what's next, where does the fight go next, I think it's really important to praise God during this time and thank him that his truth and His laws and His goodness is written on the hearts of everyone who is made in His image. And we can recognize that and the world can become more of a reflection of the kingdom of heaven because of that.

Scott:

I think it's such a good point, Luke. People sometimes feel like, oh, how will this ever be resolved? We have such different worldviews. We have these people that don't believe in God. And the sexual revolution and abortion is just essential to their way of looking at the world and functioning in the world. And then you've got another group, we, who believe in the one true God and live according to what pleases him, the moral universe that he has created. And yet God's given everybody a conscience. And I think that's such an important point, Luke, that you just made. And I think part of the great gains that have kind of resulted in this milestone, can be chalked up to the fact that people that supported abortion, even without believing in God, have changed on that. And part of the reason they've changed is they've seen pictures, for example, of what's that unborn baby in the womb because of sonogram. And it's pricked their conscience. And so, God can change people's hearts, and he's given us all a conscience. He's written all on our heart. And so that gives me hope that this can continue to change even though sometimes it seems like it won't or it will be impossible to change. Tim, what about you?

Tim Williams:

Well, you know, for one, of course, I'm really excited along with everybody else. And I think another thing that's kind of spinning in my head is, I always have a value of having diverse friends that I can sit around the table with and have conversation with and share honestly different points of view. And so, you know, right now I'm watching a storm on social media of people who are not speaking deeply about the issue, but speaking very emotionally about the issue on both sides. I see some people talking about how... I'm just going to try and put it into words here. But they're saying it's... having a baby is such a financial burden. And there's communities that are in poverty, and there's families that are in poverty, and if they don't have access to abortion, they can't...

Scott:

Yeah, they just can't afford to—

Tim Williams:

—Develop. They can't enjoy the comforts of life and so forth. Yesterday at church, we just happen to be in

the Acts 2:

42-47, which is the famous passage where everyone is sharing their possessions. And I think we're so far from that at this point in the development of the church. But I really would love for people to think about what is the role of government? Is the government's role to pay all my bills so that I can be a mom because I am pregnant? Or what is the role of the family? And how does the family come in and take care of that? And, yeah, there's, there's a lot of deep issues there. But I think, of course, it's essential that we even define wealth and poverty not totally in terms of financial gain and financial

Scott:

Well, guys, great thoughts, a couple of other comfort. But wealth in so many ways can be defined by what we things that just had gone through my mind over the last enjoy within our own homes, with our family, with the things that couple of days since the reaction. I just watched last we do have. And it was similar to what happened to Justice Kavanaugh, night with my family, a documentary, kind of the life when he was put on. The amount of hatred and threats. And then story of one of our Justices of the Supreme Court, I would say, arguably the most important justice in the sense that he's even President Trump, and I know people have very different been on the court the longest and is probably the most solid feelings about President Trump. He said, though, in his debates and biblical in his perspective, Clarence Thomas. It was a documentary that went back and it looked at his life but it with Hillary Clinton before he was President that he would—I also focused on the decision that the President—I believe it was George H.W. Bush, the first President Bush—made to put him mean, this video has been going around and it's pretty on the court. And it was a huge battle that he had to face in stunning—he said if he had opportunity, he would put two, order to get on the court. And the battle centered around perhaps three justices on the Supreme Court who would uphold abortion, and all the questioning was, will he overrule to overturn Roe. And it was the the amount of—I mean, the Constitution and overturn Roe vs. Wade. He said that in there was accusations that were made where the intention was to destroy his life. Really, to destroy his reputation, to 2016. The amount of pushback that he's gotten, in terms of destroy his life. To get him to, by any means possible, to get trying everything by hook and crook to keep him from him to take his name off and no longer be considered. To cry uncle, so to speak. He called it a high-tech lynching. essentially being president. My point is that what I see in all of this is incredible spiritual warfare on one hand, these people were kind of decisive people in this case, and they faced an unbelievable amount of hatred and vilification. And behind that I see the evil one doing do everything he could to keep this decision, this Friday's decision from happening. But on the other side, I saw courageous people as you were saying, Luke, who put themselves in the fire. Darrow, as you said, they believe they could make history. That our decisions matter. Courage matters. And they stuck it out. And there was a lot of prayer behind them. And God answered prayer here. And so to me, it's just this reminder that we're in a spiritual battle, that God's there working and answering prayer, and that people's decisions matter. And to me, it just is a thrilling reminder of all of that, that the courage that these people have had to face, what they've had to face just this unbelievable amount of hatred and threats. Just everything to stop this from happening. And it's not going to end, it continues. But, boy it gives me hope that God is in it, and he can answer prayers. And history can change, right? It's not written, as we say, so. Other thoughts from you guys, as we continue our discussion here. Any other thoughts or reactions?

Shawn Carson:

Well, we've talked about the church a little bit, I always come back to the church, because I think, as God's instrument on planet Earth, to promote God's ways, we, as the body of Christ, need to need to be promoting that. We need to promote life. We need to promote truth and goodness. There's a lot of confusion, so to speak, in church circles, whether this is a good thing, or not a good thing. And I think we should bring clarity to that. Reflecting the kingdom of God, this is a good thing. And, you know, we've talked about. Darrow has said it multiple times, either the churches is discipling the nation or the nation is discipling the church. And on a very specific topic like this, I'm curious, are we trying to befriend the culture in order to not look too different? Or are we trying to reflect the kingdom and support the kingdom and God's ways because they're good, and they produce truth in life? And I think as a Christian, we really need to wrestle with that, and come to the conclusion that what does God say about these things? And how should I, as a believer, interpret these decisions? You know, I think there's implications to that for the church. And how does the church respond to it? But that's a secondary question to me. Whether or not we're supporting and promoting life, or are we kind of hedging our bets and trying to decide which side is good here? I just think that's an important discussion.

Dwight:

On that, I was reminded my son lives in Texas now. And in Fort Worth, and of course, Texas was one of those states that's led the nation in the discussion and passed some laws that pushed thinking in the courts as well. But he was like, the narrative out there is that the church doesn't care. And they just don't care it. Yeah, their propaganda war against abortion is great, but they don't really care because they don't care about women. He goes a bit. The reality is, he said, in Texas, there's and I looked this up, there's like, 22 Planned Parenthood's in Texas. There's over 200 crisis pregnancy centers in Texas. And he goes on, those are all funded by the church, those are all manned by church, and they're out there doing what they can. He goes, we got to do more, but... do it. Just do it, you know?

Scott:

Yeah, I think there's this idea that, you know, the church only cares for unborn children and doesn't care about mothers in crisis pregnancies is... Yeah, can the church to you more? Yes. But what group in the United States is doing the most help mothers in crisis pregnancies? What group is doing most to foster children, to adopt children? I don't even think it's close. I think the church is doing a remarkable job. And, you know, again, could do better? Could it do more? But this idea that we don't care, that we're not doing anything—we're doing more than any other group, and I'm not trying to sound prideful here, but I want to sound a positive note towards the church, and now's the time to step up and do even more. But this idea that we—I know that enemies of the church are going to say this, the church doesn't care. But the church doesn't need to believe that and it's not true. So we don't need to like, speak out those same talking points, basically. And I think, Shawn, your point about the church is—Oh, go ahead Darrow? Yeah.

Darrow:

I would say we wouldn't be where we are today with this decision having come down last Friday, if it hadn't been for Christ's people doing what they've done over the last 50 years in response to Roe vs. Wade. The hours, the creativity, the ministry, that Christians and churches and some denominations, that Christians as a whole, have done to support life. The life of the Mother, the life of the baby. And that is one of the stars that we don't look at. Yes. Why is this decision occurred? Well, one of the reasons is because of what Christians in the church have done.

Scott:

[Intelligible]

Dwight:

I want to put a commercial on that. My daughter works with a Young Life. And she also works with Young Lives, which is the teen pregnancy arm of young life. So if you're listening this, go to your state Young Life website, find out who runs Young Lives in your state, because these work with young moms that really do need help, and help them, fund them, support them. Do something, but support that group. It's a good one.

Scott:

Absolutely. Dwight, there's so many groups like young lives. Somebody brought up the point and I thought it was an excellent point I just heard over the weekend, Planned Parenthood makes a lot of money off of abortions. There's a lot of money to be made in the abortion industry. Nobody on the pro-life side is making money. They are handing a lot of money. Exactly. Their own money sacrificially. And to the point of the churches, again, I really want to underscore that. Darrow, I think of your mentor, Francis Schaeffer, he was very prophetic in the evangelical church. And here, I have to also just say, thank God for the Catholic Church, because the Catholic church really did in the day when the evangelical church wasn't doing a lot on this issue because of the sacred/secular divide, the Catholic Church and many in the Catholic Church, were really leading the charge, and to this day, have been some of the most outspoken proponents for life. But thanks, thanks to Francis Schaeffer, and many others, evangelicals jumped on board and the church has been, I think, terrific on that. And I'm so grateful for all of the movements and organizations that do heroic work and pray and have prayed. And so the one thing I would say, as far as the church is concerned, is we've just come through a few years where especially young evangelicals have been very outspoken in terms of justice. Good, okay, good. But when they have been speaking about justice, they've been speaking about things like Black Lives Matter, and etc. And yet, this is the greatest justice issue in our country today. And it's not even close in my view. Again, let me just say that, I say that on the basis of the fact that because of Roe v. Wade, 63 million lives have been lost. Nothing comes close in terms of a justice issue. So for Christians who care about justice, and we need to, we can't just speak about whatever is on the woke side of that spectrum, we have to speak about this issue. And this is the preeminent issue. And so I think churches need to continue to speak out on this issue.

Darrow:

Let me take what you've just said one step further, a little bit deeper. We should be about justice. But as Tim said, a few minutes ago, we look at the whole issue of abortion in economic terms. A woman's pregnant. She's poor. She doesn't have the economic means to support a child. So often, this is the argument. So you take the child's life... Ideas have consequences. That's what this podcast is about.

Scott:

That's the name of the podcast.

Darrow:

Right. And when you shape an argument, primarily in economic terms like society does, you are shaping it in a very small—it's half the universe. It's only the part of the pie that's economic. Where is the sanctity of life? Yes, we may want to fight for economic justice. So okay, what does that mean? But there's something more profound. What is the injustice to the child that's aborted? What is injustice to the woman who's been told by everybody, you should have an abortion, that's your best choice, where she is forced and pressured into doing something that is against her nature. It's against her nature. It's against what she was made for. This is a gross injustice. So yes, justice is important. But do we frame the concept of justice and do we frame the issue of abortion within the context of life? Or do we frame it in nonlife, reducing everything to power and economic issues.

Tim Williams:

You really have to choose your kind of preeminent framework in this matter, because if you ask the wrong questions, you're gonna—

Darrow:

—get the wrong answers. No, that's right, Tim, that's exactly right. And that's why it's so important to talk about the framework. We're having this discussion about abortion, or we're having a discussion now about overturning Roe vs. Wade. What is the framework that you come from, that you bring into the discussion? That's what we need to. That's what we need to deal with. Otherwise, we're just simply working from an emotional level, or working from somebody else's framework, trying to make our arguments when somebody else has already framed the debate with the language and the parameters of the discussion.

Dwight:

And I think that's helpful because it's a reminder when—you first of all, when you say your framework, you mean worldview. Preeminent framework is worldview, as but what's interesting is that when you do frame it that way and you understand it that way, well then, if your view of life is materialistic and evolutionary, abortion makes total sense still.

Darrow:

Makes total sense.

Scott:

I would say abortion is central to that world. You need

Dwight:

You're being extremely honest to your worldview. But I it. think it helps people go back to that and go, this is where it

Luke:

Well, and also abortion is just the beginning of the begins. Where are you? Do you really believe that you are your own creation? In a sense. Who thinks that? application of that worldview. There is no value to human life, we're no different than the animal and machine. So not just a fetus we're talking about here, we can take this right out of the womb and talk about two year olds, 10 year olds, 21 year olds. What's the difference if you truly hold to that worldview? And of course, at that point, a lot of people are like, whoa, that doesn't follow worldview. But why not? I think it does perfectly.

Scott:

It does. It does. Luke, it's the culture of death that Darrow spoke about. If God didn't create us in His image, there is no basis for a culture of life. It's all about convenience. It's all about affordability.

Luke:

So if you join the pro-life/pro-abortion argument, you're gonna quickly run up against that. This is a clash of worldviews. And to that end, what I would just say is, try to draw back to you are being made in the image of God, having that same moral conscience, sometimes very stuffed down, but still there. Draw back to that and ask the hard questions. If abortion is okay, what's the difference between a two year old, so on and so forth. And at that point, a lot of people are gonna start struggling to continue to hold that worldview because of this common sense of the dignity of life at some point. I would say it's a rare to meet someone who was going to hold that all the way through.

Darrow:

And in another sense, what we need to be able to do is show the consequences of the worldview. It is a clash of worldviews, but those worldviews are not simply... They're not abstract. They're not airy-fairy. They are real because they produce a chain of thought, a chain of program and policies and an existence. And even people who would hold to an atheistic or evolutionary perspective, they still, as we've read this last few years, some of the authors that have come out, they're still using the vocabulary born out of a Judeo Christian worldview. They want justice. Yeah. Where do you get justice in an atheistic worldview? They want compassion. Where do you get compassion in an atheistic worldview? The very language they use has ultimately been framed by a Judeo Christian framework. And that's where we need to ask, where do you get this language that you're using? In your framework? It's not there.

Shawn Carson:

Yeah. So Darrow, you said that it's returned back to a rule of law. And so now, we've talked about the rule of law playing a major part in this decision, or the most significant part in this decision. The next part of it is something that we talked about at the DNA all the time, it's discipleship at the level of culture. And so, to me, it seems like they're they're compatible, they work together, but they're somewhat distinct as well. Because the rule of law says one thing, and then the culture may or may not represent that rule of law. It may align perfectly with it or relatively perfectly with it. Or it may say, "No, we don't want that." Which to me seems like where we have been is that, the rule of law was changed and the culture went along with it. And now the rule of law is changing back to the way it should be, but not necessarily the culture is completely excited about that change. So to me, the work for the church or our work is called to engage at the level of culture to, like you said, Scott, make abortion unfathomable and the idea of them thinkable. I think that that's where the church has a gift, has a calling. We can celebrate this, we should celebrate this. But again, it doesn't mean that the work is over. It means that now we want to align culture to the rule of law that represents the kingdom, which is, this is a wrong thing. It's an injustice. It's not good thinking. And it's not good practice. And therefore, we need to help people understand that.

Scott:

Well, a couple thoughts, Shawn on rule of law, because I Now, in the case of the United States, this is where I think really agree with Darrow. This is really an important return to our declaration is so important, because it ground our law, in the rule of law. And when we speak of the rule of law, I God's higher laws explicitly. Especially in the Declaration of Independence, because it makes reference to our rights as human beings being sourced, coming from our Creator. We are endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable rights. And then the Constitution was drafted and that becomes the law of the think we have to kind of differentiate a couple of really land. Now with Roe vs. Wade. What what Roe v. Wade did was it was Now as Christians, we have to obey the higher law, but we also unconstitutional. In other words, the Constitution, the law, didn't speak to this issue of abortion, the Constitution itself. As again, in the words of Samuel Alito, who wrote the opinion, the majority opinion, the Constitution does not confer important things. Number one, there is a higher law, right? a right to abortion. That just has to be stated. So to the should respect, to the degree that it aligns with the higher degree that the authors of Roe said that it did, they were acting outside the bounds of the rule of law. They took us in a law, the law of our land. And so we can celebrate this decision lawless direction or a direction that said, it doesn't matter what either God's law says or our law, the Constitution, what matters is what we say, we have the power, we will assert that This is the 10 commandments, this is God's law. Okay, this is power by essentially giving people this right to kill their children. You know, so that was lawless. because it's a return to lawlessness in both cases. Does unchanging. And then there's human laws that we would pass or that makes sense? Both a higher law and the law of the land, the Constitution. And I think this is really it, maybe we can kind of wrap it up at this level. In some way, the decision on Friday wasn't about abortion. It really was about the law. Who gets to decide what is our US system on these issues, that's what was that would be written into our Constitution. And I'm a believer corrupted with Roe v. Wade. It took it out of the proper legal structure of the United States. And it said, we are going to decide for everybody, for all time here at the level of the Supreme Court in a way that doesn't align with the Constitution. Now, the court has said that was wrong, it doesn't align with the Constitution. It needs to be returned to the people and their that to the degree that—and this is a point that Martin Luther elected representatives at the level of the state to decide. So it gets us back to kind of the status quo rule of law. I think this is where we have to go now. We celebrate, we praise God, but now we have to work both to change hearts and minds. This is again, the central role of the gospel, we have to always remember that. The gospel is central to this whole discussion. Because a changed people, through the gospel, can King often made—to the degree that human laws align with the change laws, right? Eventually, they can change society and culture. But we have to begin to work at the level of our states. And I think one of the challenges I would make for people right now, Christians listening to this is, depending on what state you're living in, if you're in the United States, what is the law of your state? Already, I think about a third of the states have either, within days, they either higher law or God's law, they're legitimate. outlawed abortion in their state—I think... trying to think of an example of that, I think, Alabama. I could be wrong on that. But there's different states that have literally outlawed abortion. Other states have restricted it. And so a lot of states have already taken pretty dramatic measures to protect life. Other states have gone in just the opposite direction, and said, We're going to continue to give people a license to abort all the way up to the point of birth. The state I'm in presently, Oregon, is one of those states. So what about your state? Now we have a voice again in this matter through our elected officials at the level of the state. And so we have a opportunity to be involved in this in a way that we haven't for decades. And so let's get going. Okay, let's find out what's happening in our state. And let's be part, together with others, in promoting state level laws that outlaw, that make abortion unthinkable, or at a minimum restrict or limit abortion in our states. Yeah, and as we talk about returning the decisions to the States, I think this is also to me a very exciting opportunity that hasn't existed in really, for most of my life. I think a lot of Americans don't realize that Roe v. Wade was very extreme as a law, globally speaking. So Roe v. Wade said essentially, that people have the right quote, unquote, right to abortion up to the point of birth. Very few countries have such an extreme law. I think, only a handful and they're not the kind of countries you necessarily want to be associated with. North Korea, China, and a few others. Virtually every country that—I think I'm not speaking out of turn—there's no country in Europe that has nearly as an extreme of law is Roe v. Wade. So what's going to happen now is that we can move away as a country from just one size fits all super extremist position on abortion, thank God. And now it can be settled state by state. And you'll have many states that will protect life from the very beginning. From the moment of conception. And so it's going to move us really dramatically in the direction of life. Others less so and some will double down, of course, but compared to where we were, which was a one size fits all extremist position, this is going to be far, far better. And we can work—this is the other thing that gets me excited is—we can do something in a way where our hands were tied before now we can—not that we couldn't, we fought to overturn Roe v. Wade—but now we can actually fight in a much more local way to see our state laws reflect the will of the people and hopefully the will of God in our states.

Tim Williams:

I think America was kind of founded on this idea of not entrusting, any one person, small group of people, with so much authority, knowing that humanity is sinful, and therefore, this plurality of states and this choice of coming together as one nation. And so Roe v. Wade was really an example of government overreach. This was not appropriate for the federal government to come into the states and mandate, what should be done.

Scott:

It was a violation of our system in the sense that whatever isn't explicitly written into the federal constitution is left to the states. Well, this is not abortions, not even mentioned in the federal constitution. So when Roe v. Wade was passed, it was a vast overreach, Tim, as you were saying. That's been corrected. That's what we celebrate. That's been repudiated in this decision, strongly. And I just thank God for the courage of these justices to not do a half measure, but to strongly repudiate it. Now, it returns to the states. And this is our system. This is the US system of federalism. If it's not explicitly written into the federal constitution, it has to be decided by states and by people in those states. So that's where we're going. That's what's next. Well, guys, this has been a terrific discussion. And yeah, we just thank God for the way that he's been acting and working in our lifetimes on this very important issue. And I just want to encourage all of us to just uphold this most central of biblical principles, the biblical principle of the value of every single human life regardless of age, skin color, wealth. Every human being is made by God in His image and his likeness with immeasurable worth and value. And that's what we have to keep fighting for. And so let's go forth and do so. Thanks for tuning in everybody.

Luke:

Thank you for listening to this episode of Ideas Have Consequences brought to you by the Disciple Nations Alliance. As I mentioned last week, make sure to take a minute to check out our landing page for this episode that I've linked in the description below. Again, that page has everything you need to know to continue to study each episode in further detail, including episode overviews, chapter summaries, the transcript, key quotes, and links to additional resources on the topic. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to click on that link below. By the way, you're not gonna want to miss next week's episode "Hijack Justice" with our honored guests from over at the Center for Biblical Unity.

The Founding Creeds of America
Evolution and Abortion
Changing the Culture
Celebration
The Church's Actions
Final Reflections